Law school

[obstinate]

It's taboo to say, "Don't get an education," but a Mustachian will wonder whether the education is worth the cost, as he or she wonders about all things. Here is a site that talks about this issue for law school.

http://lawlemmings.tumblr.com/

It's not all snark. There are some longer posts with in depth analysis of individual people's situations and whether law school makes sense for them.

[jp]

As someone that attended a 3rd tier law school, and graduated in the bottom 1/3, I can't say I agree with the pessimism.  Law school was by far the best financial decision I ever made.  That said, I went to the cheapest school on purpose, and came out with $38k in debt.  That was 12 years ago.  It won't work out for everyone, but neither does any other degree. 

[Wile E. Coyote]

I agree with jp. Like anything, it is what you make of it. If you go to law school because you want to make a lot of money, you are making a mistake. If you go to law school because it will help you do the kind of work you want to do, then you are far more likely to be successful.

[skunkfunk]

College was a great decision for me. I got an engineering degree and have a much higher salary for it. For a more direct comparison, my uncle was a lawyer and now has a great job as federal judge. He loves it. He always told me that I should go into law. He never really had to grind away at a big firm.  I went to college with many people who should not have been there, though. I don't think any of them are the law school type.

Is it really that bad for everybody?

[obstinate]

Hrm. I think that the job climate for new grads in law school twelve years ago was substantially different than it is today. Costs have also risen much faster than inflation. I'd be careful to avoid generalizing your experience as a new grad a decade ago to now.

His pessimism is statistically valid, in the sense that only about half of law school graduates will even get jobs in the field, and many of those jobs do not pay well. You may have better chances if you go to school for the love of it, but it would be extraordinary if that alone were enough to mitigate the risks.

[CommonCents]

The issue with law school is that a lot of people do it as a default to "finding themselves" if they still don't know what they want to do after college.  I don't think you should "slide" into law school but rather only go if you want to practice law/need a law degree for your choosen career (or to a lesser degree, want the legal education/training in reasoning and thinking).  I also think it's pretty hard for people from lower tiers to find jobs, so if they also have debt from law school (or undergrad) it can be overwhelming.  I went to a top 10 school and my classmates didn't really have much trouble finding jobs unless they were trying to go non-traditional (e.g. work for a non-profit rather than a big law firm in a big city).

[CarDude]

The scamblogs are right. Quite hard to get a job as an actual lawyer these days.

[Jamesqf]

The issue with law school is that a lot of people do it as a default to "finding themselves" if they still don't know what they want to do after college.

Even more often, I think, they go (or went: reality is slowly changing attitudes) with the idea that it's an easy way to make big bucks.

[CommonCents]

The issue with law school is that a lot of people do it as a default to "finding themselves" if they still don't know what they want to do after college.

Even more often, I think, they go (or went: reality is slowly changing attitudes) with the idea that it's an easy way to make big bucks.

Yep.  You can still get the big bucks if you go to top schools, but it's hard to impossible elsewhere.

[jp]

Hrm. I think that the job climate for new grads in law school twelve years ago was substantially different than it is today. Costs have also risen much faster than inflation. I'd be careful to avoid generalizing your experience as a new grad a decade ago to now.

His pessimism is statistically valid, in the sense that only about half of law school graduates will even get jobs in the field, and many of those jobs do not pay well. You may have better chances if you go to school for the love of it, but it would be extraordinary if that alone were enough to mitigate the risks.

eh, I don't know, I saw these articles all the time in 2002 as well.  They said the exact same things about there being too many lawyers and not enough jobs.  There are plenty of people I was in school with that never found a job or never practiced law, but I think that has probably always been the case. 

I went to law school basically because I didn't know what to do with myself.  I had a job as a teacher the summer before I went, and I decided not to take it and at the last minute went to law school.  I often think about how thankful I am that I did that.  It probably changed my entire life.

As for statistics, many people use law school to advance in other careers.  The guy that was dead last in my class went straight into the FBI, for example.  It helps, and assuming you don't go to a ridiculous private school, I think it is still a pretty good bargain.

[kkbmustang]

I went to law school because it was an acceptable alternative to med school from a parental standpoint. Which isn't a good reason to go. But go, I went. And I racked up $120,000 in debt. But, I went to a top tier law school, performed very well and got a job in BigLaw.

I don't regret the education, but I wouldn't want the BigLaw/Big4/Consulting Firm life for my kids. (But if that's what they really, truly want to do, that's fine.) It's more stress and ridiculousness than anyone should have to deal with on a regular basis just for money. All the horror stories of receiving an email from a partner at 3 a.m. Saturday morning requiring you to get a memo researched, written and on his desk hard copy and soft copy via email by 5 PM Sunday, only to have it sit there for weeks before being reviewed were real. That crap happens all the time. Manufactured, non-client driven deadlines. Just because they can.

But, I did make a lot of money. I knew I was nearing the breaking point when my boss notified me of my a few grand shy of $100k bonus and all I felt was sadness over all the time I hadn't spent with my family. Like, I held the bonus in one hand and what I'd sacrificed to get it in the other and just felt empty.

[Suit]

I went to law school partly because I was trying to find out what I wanted and partly because my dad always told me I'd be a good lawyer. I wound up interning in the office that I work for now and it's the perfect job for me! I do know people in my class who had trouble finding jobs but it seems to me like most of the people who worked in an internship or networked either have a job or opened their own firm and are doing well. I do have a good bit of debt from the private law school that I went to but I also make a little over 2x as much as I did when I was teaching and I'm only a little over a year into my job so there's still a lot of room to go upward. I don't think law school is right for everyone but I'm convinced it was the right call for me.

[jp]

^^ pretty much.  Most of the people going chicken little over law school aren't lawyers.  There are jobs and smart and capable people will find a way.  We all went to school with a few lunatics that will never be successful in any job, regardless of their degree.  I suspect that these are the people giving these interviews whining about no jobs.

If you want to practice law, go to law school.  If you can stand up and talk or focus on writing and have enough intelligence to pass the bar exam, you will be fine.

[ChrisLansing]

I don't agree with either the "there are no law jobs" view, or the "you'll be fine" view.    It's the middle of the pack lawyers that make me wonder whether it was worth it or not.  (Of course there can be non-monetary reasons).

Many of the lawyers I know are not really doing a lot better than if they'd never gone to law school.   Obviously they have taken on a lot of additional debt for their "graduate" degree (I put graduate in quotes because traditionally the first law degree earned was an LLB - bachelor of law.   LLBs have been "upgraded" to doctorates, and judging by their homes/cars (most people are nonmustacian so this is still a good indicator of income) they aren't making big money.    Middle class money, yes.    Middle middle.   

Anyway, my point is that law school is a lot of work and money so you can make middle class income.   You could probably do that anyway, with many (useful) degrees, or even with several of the skilled trades.   Most of the people I know who became lawyers did so because in their final semester of college they realized the Philosophy degree wasn't going to take them anywhere.   

[Undecided]

(I put graduate in quotes because traditionally the first law degree earned was an LLB - bachelor of law.   LLBs have been "upgraded" to doctorates, and judging by their homes/cars (most people are nonmustacian so this is still a good indicator of income) they aren't making big money.    Middle class money, yes.  Middle middle.

http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/lawyer/salary

Doesn't look like "middle middle" to me. Also, the history and evolution of university law degrees over the past 7 or 8 centuries is actually a lot more complicated than you suggest, but that would get pretty far off topic.

[obstinate]

Doesn't look like "middle middle" to me.

Arithmetic mean versus median. It's worth considering the latter if you want to get a picture of expected outcomes. Also, that's of people who call themselves or are reported as "lawyers." As we covered earlier, barely half of law school graduates actually become one of these, but they all leave with the same crushing debt (except the lower tier schools, but then they're even less likely to become lawyers).

[AUS Starchie]

As a soon to be law grad working at a law firm I can confirm that law school is a shit idea. Everyone I know is so ignorant to the realities of being a lawyer. As I myself was before I started. 50% of law grads don't have the grades to make it into a crappy min wage law job. Of the 50% that do, only 5% make the big dollars at large commercial firms. Of that 5% only a fraction of the best who are willing to spend 2 decades slaving away 60+ a week will make equity partner and be rolling in cash. Engineering, dentistry and medicine are all better alternatives.

[Undecided]

Doesn't look like "middle middle" to me.

Arithmetic mean versus median. It's worth considering the latter if you want to get a picture of expected outcomes. Also, that's of people who call themselves or are reported as "lawyers." As we covered earlier, barely half of law school graduates actually become one of these, but they all leave with the same crushing debt (except the lower tier schools, but then they're even less likely to become lawyers).

The linked article included both mean and median.

Largely, though, I agree with your broader point. I've said before (and been dismissed as an elitist for saying so), that the idea that "law" is a single profession in any way that's useful for discussion seems wrong to me. Entrants often seem to have one version of it in mind even when their own circumstances are such that they are likely headed to a very different version. I'm a graduate of a traditional tip-top law school who has made my own very happy situation at a law firm at the tip-top of the profession, and it's a pretty remarkable job. I have relatives who graduated from law school into the morass, and I have watched them struggle. It is still a fantastic opportunity for those for whom it's a fantastic opportunity, but the consequences of pursuing it wrongly have increased, to be sure.

As others suggested, today is not an entirely unprecedented situation, though (even the relatively recent .com collapse was similar); since I began to seriously consider law, while an undergraduate, there have been conceptually similar expressions of concern over the structural collapse of the profession or the situation of segments of the profession.

[Lukim]

I went to Law School - never really planned to go to Law School but I got accepted in a "sandstone" University Law School (equivalent of Ivy League in the US) and thought "I got accepted so I should give it a try." 

That was in the late 1970s at a fortunate time when university was totally free (but getting accepted was difficult), so I graduated with a degree and no debt. 

At the time, things were depressed in the legal market but I go a job as a solicitor.

I mucked around, tried a few different law firms.

Somehow, by the time I was in my mid 30s, I found myself as an equity partner in a large corporate law firm making big money. I did that for 14 years - made good money but ultimately it was the politics of a large partnership that got to me.

So I would say it is often a matter of making the most of the opportunities that are presented to you.  If an opportunity comes your way then seriously consider it.

I never had to worry about student loans but consider what are the alternatives if you don't go to Law School (working as a barman all your life?).  If you get a good degree you can probably afford to pay down the loans.

Most law graduates don't practice law in law firms - but many go into investment banking and business and do much better than those in law firms.  Out of people I went to law school with, the ones who are now ultra rich did it through investment banking, not working as lawyers.

[CommonCents]

As a soon to be law grad working at a law firm I can confirm that law school is a shit idea. Everyone I know is so ignorant to the realities of being a lawyer. As I myself was before I started. 50% of law grads don't have the grades to make it into a crappy min wage law job. Of the 50% that do, only 5% make the big dollars at large commercial firms. Of that 5% only a fraction of the best who are willing to spend 2 decades slaving away 60+ a week will make equity partner and be rolling in cash. Engineering, dentistry and medicine are all better alternatives.

As I said above, it greatly depends on the quality of the law school you attended.

Here's the stats for my law school:
https://www.law.upenn.edu/careers/employment-statistics.php

Over 95% of the graduating class was employed each year.  Median salary ranges from $145k-160k for the past five years (and this with approximately 15% of the class getting lower paid - but prestigious, career boosting - judicial clerkships). 

[dragoncar]

If someone is really interested in law, I think now is a great time to go to, say, UT Austin (good value).  I head admission standards are lower since so few people are applying (although maybe my info is dated?).  Someone graduating in 3 years won't be competing for a job with the guy who graduated last year, never found a job, and went into a different field.

edit: you still have to get into a pretty good school for a shot at the $$$

[HSH Princess Grace]

I went to law school 20 years ago.  Although I grew up very poor, I made a great deal of money in the fashion business and so I could pay cash for my degree.  I went to a top school and got top grades.  As a young woman 20 years ago it was great to have a credential to set your self apart, from a self esteem position.  I love the knowledge that I have.  I love when the "know it all" jerk types try to take advantage of me I can pull out the "I'm a lawyer" talk.  As a career and financial option is sucks.  Both my sister and best friend graduated with grad degrees the same time I did.  My friend with an MBA and my sister with a PhD in Education.  Both have made more money, both have had greater flexibility and career advancement.  It's not just me.  20 years later most of my class has either left law, gone into jobs that do not require a law degree (stock broker, investment banker, etc.), or they are struggling to get by.  Where I live the average realtor makes more than the average attorney.  Luckily I still love the ideals of law, the concepts and theories so I don't feel its a total loss.  For someone else who loves the law I would recommend a paralegal degree/certification.  Work in the field but don't waste the money on law school. 

[BFGirl]

I graduated from law school 21 years ago (eek!).  It has been a good career for me.  I did private practice at a firm for 9 years and have been a government lawyer for the last 11.  I don't make a 6 figure income, but I make enough and being with the government I have  had enough flexibility to be there for my kids.  However, I do believe there is a glut of lawyers right now and wouldn't recommend it for my kids unless it was their passion.  For those wanting to go into law, I would recommend Elder Law.  With all the baby boomers who will be aging, it is a field where lawyers will be needed.

[totoro]

Now that law school in the US has a bad rap it is probably the time to go. 

That said, I would not go into significant debt for it myself.  The price for law school in Canada has risen a lot but it pales in comparison to many US schools.  In the US I would try for scholarships and financial aid.

Law school was definitely worth it for me.  I do make a very good wage for pt work. 

Thinking you have to work for a big firm to make big bucks is short-sighted.  What you need is hands-on practice for a few years in an area you want to practice in. Then you could, as one example, start your own firm and buying your own building in a smaller town in an underserved area. 

The fact that you need a professional designation to practice means your competition is always going to be somewhat limited.  Understanding the economics of the practice of law is more critical than the law school you went to imo.