Law of Attraction

[TheBuddha]

Has anyone applied any metaphysical techniques to their FI journey? Things such as positive thinking, Law of Attraction, Napoleon-Hill-thoughts-are-things type of stuff?

I started with Napoleon Hill and am now pretty sold on the Law of Attraction concept (not accepting it wholesale, but taking what I find useful and leaving the rest, as with anything else).

I figure there's no downside to positive thinking, so why not give it a try?

Anyway I could mention specific techniques but I'm curious about whether anyone else has tried it.

[forummm]

I like physics. But haven't gotten into metaphysics.

Do you find anything in particular to be useful to you?

[lemanfan]

I'm a big consumer of and fan of inspirational books, but in my opinion the "Law of Attraction" is over the line into bullsh*t land.  The thing about positive thinking that works is about your mental processes, gaining confidence and getting rid of fears.

The actual FI journey is still about making sound strategic choices and concrete actions that affects money coming in and going out.  It's not magic.

The Gods will not provide.  You will. And you can.

[JohnnyDollar]

See: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias


Keeping a positive mental attitude is fine and useful.  Wish-fulfilment fantasy that steals time and energy you would otherwise put into fulfilling those wishes is not fine or useful.

[Rural]

My concern about such mindset is that they encourage dependence, not independence.

[Rezdent]

Not metaphysics per se, but I spent years learning optimism, which was harder than it sounds. Martin Seligman was the first exposure I had to learned optimism, and many people (like Tony Robbins) have expanded his ideas.  It's also one of those soft techniques that a lot of people lump in with metaphysics.

Did a million dollars fall into my lap?  No.
Was I able to take advantage of a million tiny steps in the right direction?  Yes.

Have there been instances where smaller things just fell into my life law-attraction-style?  Hmmm - I'd have to say yes.  But tragedies I never wished for or imagined fell into my life too.  I believe we are all surrounded by opportunities all the time, and most of us miss them.

I think the principles of the law of attraction help people to get laser focus on their goals and that is an important part of achieving them.  I also believe that most people will miss the tiny opportunities while waiting for something to fall in their lap.

[2ndTimer]

I am a big believer that chance favors the prepared mind.  However, the best way to prepare said mind can be disputed.  Back in Freshman Chemistry I had a devoutly religious friend who always prayed about exams.  I spent that time studying.  Guess which of us wound up enlisted in the Army and which one wound up a PhD at a National Lab.

[Insanity]

Positive thinking is necessary to be successful.  Negative thinking will prevent you from being successful.  And by successful I don't mean in any one little individual task.  I can think negative and still complete a task, but it makes it much harder.

This is not a confirmation bias.  This has actually been proven.   It also matters who you associate with.  The longer you spend with people who doubt you can be successful, the more likely you won't be.  It is one of the reasons it is hard for poor people to get out if poor communities.  It is because they have it ingrained that they can't get out.

[Katsplaying]

Studies have shown that "positive" thinking is a hoax. It appears to inhibit people's ambitions and actions, since they think that just thinking good thoughts will be enough.

Pessimists & pragmatic individuals are better prepared for less-than-wonderful outcomes because even thought they do try, they acknowledge that things don't go as planned and have made accommodations for variations.

Many years ago I spent a lot of time in spiritual questing christian and new-age-y, pagan/Wiccan type communities whilst searching for answers about life. The real deal: We don't know shit about shit but this is the only go-round we can be sure of so make it the best you can while you can.

[Insanity]

There is a significant difference between wishing for things to happen and making them happen, obviously.

But a pessimist who doesn't have a goal of making things happen still won't make things happen.  It maybe anecdotal, but my wife shows that.  She is a pessimist and pragmatic who has no goals.  She never gets ahead.

The law of attraction is about wanting things and the you just have to be pragmatic about getting it.

[k290]

See: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias


Keeping a positive mental attitude is fine and useful.  Wish-fulfilment fantasy that steals time and energy you would otherwise put into fulfilling those wishes is not fine or useful.

This. Napolean Hill et al do a good job at giving you motivation and optimisim, and in reality that is all that you are actually gaining.

That being said, affirmations and such have been shown to increase your ability and success rate. Beyond that these advices start entering the pseudoscience realm and are not really worth the time.

[TheBuddha]

The feeling I'm getting from the responses is that there's an overlap between legit psychological techniques and woo-woo and it's hard to discuss one without adding caveats about the other.

Here's an example of what I find interesting: the importance of self-image. A person will always act in accordance with their self-image. But many beliefs about the self are distorted, limiting, or were true at one time but are no longer true. This can affect finances. Take someone who thinks of themselves as a person who earns $50k. If they get a raise, they will frivolously spend the extra money so that their "real" salary is $50k. If they get a pay cut, they will responsibly cut their budget and grumble about being worth more. If they win the lottery they will soon be broke again because they think of themselves as only being "worth" $50k per year. They are uncomfortable having more (or less) money than they think they're worth.

To me, this was a revelation. I've experienced self-sabotaging behaviors that I could not explain or understand. The explanation above, I believe, is based on sound psychology. But there is also a woo-woo explanation for the same phenomenon.

Woo-woo would say that although your conscious mind is sending out positive intentions to the universe, your unconscious mind is sabotaging you and sending out "counter-intentions". Thus you would need to make sure your unconscious mind was "clear". 

Although it's couched in mystical terms, I think the explanation is essentially the same.

Personally I'm comfortable with woo-woo. It doesn't bother me, because I see through it so easily. On the other hand I can imagine a psychologically fragile, less-discerning person latching on to woo-woo stuff in a way that might not be healthy.

As for me, I'll continue my study in this area because I believe there's genuine insight to be had.

I'll share some more examples in a later post.

[Dorje]

The laws of attraction simply spell out the cause-and-effect of manifestation much like the laws of karma spell out the cause-and-effect of your actions.

If that kind of thing isn't important to you that is fine but there are ways to decide what action and mindset are appropriate to a certain situation to achieve the results you want and avoid the experiences you'd rather not have. We have accumulated so much karma that it seems difficult to affect change but you have to start somewhere... Or not...

[Erica/NWEdible]

I go through life assuming that I am a phenomenally lucky human being. And partly I mean that from a gratitude perspective, but I also just mean I really believe some people have more luck than others, and I think I'm one of those. Does that count as metaphysical?

Otherwise, no, not really. Most of the "power of positive thinking = vibes out in the universe = your desires just appear" stuff seems pretty woo-woo to me.

[fishnfool]

I believe there is a lot of truth to the powers of attraction when it comes to money. Yes, some are lucky and just have it.  Like some people I know who can trip over a pile of dog crap and find a pot of gold. Others, like myself have to work at it and make baby steps to get what comes so easy for the naturals. Being positive and optimistic are a good start!

[Dorje]

Understanding the law of karma is far more important than understanding manifestation. Karma is by far the largest determiner of your current circumstances and it's effects are infallible. There is absolutely nothing out-there or woo-woo about it either, it's a very simple concept of cause-and-effect, but not very many people take the time to understand it in detail and end up making bad decisions over and over again, at least in some areas of their life.

In Buddhism, karma is thought of as one of the most important things to learn while details of the process of manifestation is not. There is a good reason for this as learning to manifest without understanding karma and compassion may lead to greater suffering.

[ChrisLansing]

Take it from a philosophy major, there is no law of attraction.   

The one thing Napoleon Hill knows about attracting money is this - sooner or later almost every American will lay down his hard earned cash for a book that promises to reveal the secrets of attracting wealth.   

The downside to positive thinking is you sit around thinking positive thoughts and saying affirmations when you could have used that time to actually do something.   

FIRE is possible if you have sufficient income, high savings rate, and invest intelligently.   

[TheBuddha]

The downside to positive thinking is you sit around thinking positive thoughts and saying affirmations when you could have used that time to actually do something.   

I don't know if there are people who conform to that caricature or not, but it certainly wasn't what I meant by the term "positive thinking".

I was thinking more along the lines of MMM's post The Practical Benefits of Outrageous Optimism.

The same methods can be applied by a Personal Collapse Theorist. “Oh man, this job is stressing me out. My department is going down the shitter, and we’ll be the first ones on the chopping block when the next round of layoffs comes. And it will be coming SOON! … And the thing is, in THIS ECONOMY, I need to hold onto my job because there are no other ones out there. Not in my field, anyway. All this is really taking a toll on my health. I’ve got bad knees and back, and they really flare up when I am stressed. So they are getting worse every day, which makes me even more stressed, which makes me even worse at my job, which makes me even more likely to get laid off, which ….”

Whew, it hurt my fingers even to type that paragraph above, even though it was all completely made up. But it hurts because it’s true – some people actually say things like that on a regular basis. And every time I hear it, I feel like grasping the person’s head between my hands and shaking it while I say, “Wake up, Dude! You’re doing more than just discussing your situation right now.. You’re creating your own reality!”

[ChrisLansing]

@TheBuddha

OK, I see your point.   

I'm not against approaching life optimistically, but imo, MMM's optimism isn't outrageous, it's just realistic.  If you don't apply for the job you won't get it.    So you should apply for jobs you are reasonably qualified for (if you need a job/better job) 

But, there is no law of attraction.   Napoleon Hill is a bullshit artist.   You cannot "manifest" things you want by thinking about it.   You can take action reasonably calculated to achieve your goals to some degree.   

[Rezdent]

There IS a law of attraction. I see people attracting things everyday. They just don't know that their choices are doing it.

The person who has little self worth attracting people who take advantage of them.
The person always caught up in drama, and hangs out with dramatic people, who finds themselves tangled into Jerry Springer scenarios.
The person who just seems to attract bad luck, bad friends, bad jobs.

It might sound like "bullshit" but for some people, changing their beliefs will change their whole world.  If Napoleon Hill is the only person they ever find that points them to a different path, so be it.
Thinking about other possibilities, no matter how outrageous, is the first step into opening someone's world to the enormous potential available to them.  Once they can think about a different life, they can recognize opportunities that move them towards that life.

Limiting yourself to "reasonable" optimism is, well, limiting yourself.  Applying for jobs you are only reasonably sure you could get...what's the harm in applying for the dream job too while you are at it?
It's not about living some weird fantasy where no action is taken, but one where a person dreams big, recognizes opportunity, and takes action.

[Insanity]

Think and Grow Rich will demonstrate the details of hard work that Hill believes need to be there.  He is a big fan of partnerships (including win-win negotiations), service, having a support network, and other facets.  If you take it at face value, then you miss his point.

I have heard Outwitting the Devil is also good, but have not read it.

[swick]

But, there is no law of attraction.   Napoleon Hill is a bullshit artist.   You cannot "manifest" things you want by thinking about it.   You can take action reasonably calculated to achieve your goals to some degree.

I would wager that anyone who has invented anything would disagree with you. Isn't EVERYTHING that comes into existence in tangible form the result of thought?

[golden1]

It might sound like "bullshit" but for some people, changing their beliefs will change their whole world. 

+1

The main thing about positive thinking is that you need to pair it with positive action.   If you don't actually DO anything, all the positive thinking in the world won't help you.

Positive thinking +action > negative thinking + action > positive thinking alone

I suffered from dysthymia for years, basically just a low level depression.  Once I began to turn that around with CBT techniques, which is basically just a form of rational based positive thinking, my entire world changed.  I still struggle with negative thinking, but I understand now that those thoughts aren't necessarily reality, just my perception, and that I can shape my perceptions just by reframing my thoughts a bit. 

[Katsplaying]

There IS a law of attraction. I see people attracting things everyday. They just don't know that their choices are doing it.

The person who has little self worth attracting people who take advantage of them.
The person always caught up in drama, and hangs out with dramatic people, who finds themselves tangled into Jerry Springer scenarios.
The person who just seems to attract bad luck, bad friends, bad jobs.

To me, this sounds dangerously like blaming the individual. Yes, we are all responsible for a large part of our circumstances and should make every effort to improve them but sometimes SHIT JUST HAPPENS and cannot be prevented.

The "law" of attraction isn't a law by any definition of the term.

Pragmatic, outrageous optimism as espoused & practiced by MMM relies almost entirely on concrete, sustained, and purposeful efforts to maximize and optimize as many aspects of life as possible. No wishful thinking allowed in the realm of finance or planning or discipline; just real-world, empirical evidence.

[Dorje]

Take it from a philosophy major, there is no law of attraction.   
 

You couldn't be further from the truth Mr. Philosophy Major... There are physical laws of the universe that determine what manifests in your life, that determines who you interact with and what experiences you have. You can deny they exist but you might as well deny gravity because we can't understand exactly how it works either.

We don't have enough perspective to see the entirety of the process, so it's not obvious how it all works, but this failure to see the big picture and recognize the mechanism of creation and manifestation does not mean it doesn't exist. The Laws of Attraction are only a small part of the puzzle, but it is a part we can have some influence over and it is dumbed-down to make it understandable and not so complex. So those who see it and dismiss it as absurd I can understand because it is taken out of context to some degree, but the truth is it is useful and works for many people.

Also, if you understand the Laws of Attraction you can see them in action all around you and you will start to recognize patterns in your own life and in the lives of others. People experience things based on their thought patterns, which in turn are determined by their past thoughts and actions, which is called karma... This is easiest to see in what relationships you attract, especially romantic ones. People tend to attract the same kind of person over and over, and it is only when they change their beliefs that they are capable of attracting someone different. Your relationships are a mirror of yourself, if you want to know more about you look at the people that are closest to you and you will find either striking similarities or mirror opposites of your own thoughts and behaviors. This should be super obvious unless you are truly oblivious to what's going on around you.

[Loud Noises]

I'm actually surprised to see this much resistance to the law of attraction concept on this board. MMM demonstrates an innate understanding of it with every post he makes, yet somehow its definition is watered down to something related to positive thinking by some in this conversation.

Thought is part of it, action is part of it, those around you are part... but it all comes down to directed energy.  Positive thinking without a lot of positive action or positive surroundings has never accomplished much of anything.  But as soon as you start combining them - directing more energy at the things which you desire - you do indeed begin a process that is one of the most powerful in existence.  I'm a fan of any philosophy which rhymes with this, whether it be in books (sold at a profit, oh no, they must be corrupt!) in new-age teachings, in religious teachings, or in pave your own way types such as MMM. 

The simple point is that you attract the things which you direct your energy toward.  It is just as powerful in a negative way as in a positive way.  We must be careful with our thoughts, but also with how we spend our time and who/what we surround ourselves with.  If you combine all of your mental and physical resources toward one desire for a long time, miraculous things will occur that will draw that closer to you.

I wasn't a philosophy major, but I am living proof that this is true.  I worked for years toward a "one in a million" career and sure as shit, I made it happen.  Note that I said I made it happen.  It didn't happen to me.  I wasn't anointed as the "most talented surely going to be famous in the future musician" when I was 13 years old.  I thought it, then I acted, then I thought some more.  After years of that I had created a snowball that grew and grew until my desires had manifested exactly.  I've seen it happen in a similar way with my relationships, and I'm marrying the woman of my dreams in October.  I also see the results of the law of attraction in the lives of everyone who surrounds me.  Sometimes it brings positive, sometimes negative, but we are in control of the biggest part of it over the long haul.  We can attract that which we (actively) want or don't want the most.  If more people understood this, I can't imagine what our world would look like.

[bacchi]

You couldn't be further from the truth Mr. Philosophy Major... There are physical laws of the universe that determine what manifests in your life, that determines who you interact with and what experiences you have. You can deny they exist but you might as well deny gravity because we can't understand exactly how it works either.

You're misusing the phrase.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_law

The "Law of Attraction" as it relates to humans is not a "physical law"

based on repeated scientific experiments and observations over many years and which have become accepted universally within the scientific community.

It just isn't.

This board has a significant number of engineers on it, which is why there's so much resistance about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_attraction

[Dorje]

You couldn't be further from the truth Mr. Philosophy Major... There are physical laws of the universe that determine what manifests in your life, that determines who you interact with and what experiences you have. You can deny they exist but you might as well deny gravity because we can't understand exactly how it works either.

You're misusing the phrase.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_law

The "Law of Attraction" as it relates to humans is not a "physical law"

based on repeated scientific experiments and observations over many years and which have become accepted universally within the scientific community.

It just isn't.

No, I'm not... My "misuse" is intentional and it actually is a physical law. Quantum mechanics will one day spell out the exact physics behind physical manifestation. Buddhists already understand how it works.

BTW, I am a mechanical engineer. ;)

[bacchi]

No, I'm not... My "misuse" is intentional and it actually is a physical law. Quantum mechanics will one day spell out the exact physics behind physical manifestation. Buddhists already understand how it works.

No, it's not a physical law because it's not "based on repeated scientific experiments over many years" and it's definitely not "accepted universally" within the scientific community. It may be in the future but it's not right now.

I don't think the fact that Buddhists claim to already understand how it works is relevant.

[Dorje]

No, it's not a physical law because it's not "based on repeated scientific experiments over many years" and it's definitely not "accepted universally" within the scientific community. It may be in the future but it's not right now.

I don't think the fact that Buddhists claim to already understand how it works is relevant.

Lol, if you can't understand I said it in that way to make a point and your semantic correction is pedantic and unnecessary then I don't know what to say...

[NoraLenderbee]

Can you achieve great things by focusing your energy and thoughts and working hard? Yes--it isn't guaranteed, but it's possible.

Does that mean you can get rich by telling yourself "I will receive a check for one million dollars?" No. 

The "Law of Attraction" as pushed by Hill and his ilk is all about the second one.

[Insanity]

Can you achieve great things by focusing your energy and thoughts and working hard? Yes--it isn't guaranteed, but it's possible.

Does that mean you can get rich by telling yourself "I will receive a check for one million dollars?" No. 

The "Law of Attraction" as pushed by Hill and his ilk is all about the second one.

Have you read his other books?

I am guessing not based on your conclusion.

[GuitarStv]

But, there is no law of attraction.   Napoleon Hill is a bullshit artist.   You cannot "manifest" things you want by thinking about it.   You can take action reasonably calculated to achieve your goals to some degree.

I would wager that anyone who has invented anything would disagree with you. Isn't EVERYTHING that comes into existence in tangible form the result of thought?

Only if you believe in free will.  There's some mounting scientific evidence that free will doesn't exist for humans.  Many of the decisions you think you've made have been made unconsciously and then your higher brain functions rationalize a reason for them after the fact.

[TheBuddha]

But, there is no law of attraction.   Napoleon Hill is a bullshit artist.   You cannot "manifest" things you want by thinking about it.   You can take action reasonably calculated to achieve your goals to some degree.

I would wager that anyone who has invented anything would disagree with you. Isn't EVERYTHING that comes into existence in tangible form the result of thought?

Only if you believe in free will.  There's some mounting scientific evidence that free will doesn't exist for humans.  Many of the decisions you think you've made have been made unconsciously and then your higher brain functions rationalize a reason for them after the fact.

God how I hate the headlines those studies generate. It's MY unconscious mind, isn't it? Why would my unconscious mind not be considered "me"?

And by the way, the power which you ascribe to the unconscious mind is exactly what Positive Thinking (for lack of a better term) is all about harnessing.

[Dorje]

Only if you believe in free will.  There's some mounting scientific evidence that free will doesn't exist for humans.  Many of the decisions you think you've made have been made unconsciously and then your higher brain functions rationalize a reason for them after the fact.

Mindfulness is all about choosing consciously. The decisions you make from day to day are about the only thing you have a choice in, but if they are not made consciously your choices will be dictated by your karma.

One thing people might not catch about the Law of Attraction is that your unconscious, ingrained belief system is the most influential factor in what manifests in your life, which is entirely the result of karma. Because people do not make conscious decisions in life most things manifest as a result of unconscious beliefs, and it seems as if they have no control or free will. The Laws of Attraction are about examining what you really believe deep down about yourself and the world and modifying those beliefs. Hopefully for the best. ;)  That is where results come from, stuff like saying affirmations is one of many ways to attempt to affect change and is only as effective as the change it makes in the individual.

So, I would say you have free will to the extent you are aware and conscious, which is not black or white.

[sol]

Threads like this make me a sad panda.  You people seriously believe this stuff?

Positive thinking is great.  I love positive thinking, and recommend it to everyone.  You cannot succeed without it.  But it doesn't cause success.

Reality is not made manifest by your expectations.  You cannot will a million dollars to appear out of thin air.  Your beliefs do not make anything true.  Objective reality does, in fact, exist.

Only children believe in magic, folks.  If you're unsure if something is magic or not, ask yourself if it can be observed and measured in a reproducible way.

Gravity.  Check; measurable, mathematically predictable, will assume is real until evidence suggests otherwise.
Santa Clause.  Can't be observed or measured, not real.
Evolution.  Check; observable and measurable, with a well understood mechanism.  looks the same to everyone, real.
The Law of Attraction.  Though designed to be hard to test, has been tested and disproven.  Proposed by a con man, also a good hint.
Giant squids.  Looked to be fake, until someone actually caught one on camera.  Turns out they're real.

I play this game with my nine year old.  Do I really have to play it with you?

[arcangel911]

You can think positively all you want. It gives you a goal and energy and go forward.

But if you can't get off your ass to move forward, well.... then you get what you deserve.

[Spud]

There are only two things that we as humans are fully in control of.

a) how we interpret what happens to us.
b) how we respond to what happens to us.

The interpretation side of things = being in control of your own thoughts.
The response side of things = being in control of your own actions.

The two are obviously linked. There is nothing else that we are fully in control of.

This what Steven Covey was driving at and what MMM highlights in this post  - http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/10/07/how-big-is-your-circle-of-control/

The law of attraction is good if it teaches people to be in control of their own thoughts rather than bumbling along on autopilot feeling really unhappy and not realising they can do something about it.

It does however get dangerous if people buy into the law of attraction to the extent where they believe that they can influence the weather, the stock market, the lottery, getting a new job, falling in love etc, simply by sitting around and thinking about it.

Positive thinking has to be linked to ACTION. That is where the Law of Attraction in whatever guise (The Secret is the one that most people know) falls down. They don't talk about CONSISTENT ACTION on a regular basis.

I'm sure I've read something somewhere about scientific research on visualisation. The findings of the studies basically concluded that visualising what you're going to DO to get to the end result was far more productive than simply visualising the end result itself. Visualising the steps you're going to take is better because it acknowledges that you actually have to DO something, and encourages you to start planning properly rather than mere wishful thinking.

Who gets wealthy? The guy that implements MMM's advice on a consistent basis or the guy that thinks about the universe manifesting $100?

Who learns Spanish? They guy that goes to classes, studies and takes a trip to Spain, or the guy that simply visualises himself speaking Spanish?

[Ovid]

I feel like many of you are not familiar enough with Napoleon Hill's work to be passing judgement on it.  I would describe the law of attraction as taught by Hill as teaching yourself to get things for yourself. 

Have you ever been shopping for a specific model of car?  You do your research on the Prius.  The next day you drive to work and you see Prius cars everywhere when you had never noticed any on your drive to work before. 

Did you "attract" more of the Prius in to your life?  Of course not, that would be metaphysical bullshit.  Did you start to see them when you had not seen them before because you had started to research them?  I would say yes. 

Hill's works are key on focusing on your definite chief aim, and on doing the work.  In fact one of the 16 lessons in law of success is about doing more work than for which you are paid. 

The key point of Hill's work to me is getting you to focus on your definite chief aim and then you start seeing things to do to accomplish your goals.  A chief aim such as "to earn a million dollars" is not specific enough.  You would set a chief aim of something like  "to earn a million dollars by selling carpet by the year 2020".  You then focus enough on that, that you start to see things, people, and ideas that can help you achieve your aim.

I would say it is not the world that changes through this system, only you.  I cannot comment on other iterations of the law of attraction, but Hill's seems to at least make sense to me.

[GuitarStv]

But, there is no law of attraction.   Napoleon Hill is a bullshit artist.   You cannot "manifest" things you want by thinking about it.   You can take action reasonably calculated to achieve your goals to some degree.

I would wager that anyone who has invented anything would disagree with you. Isn't EVERYTHING that comes into existence in tangible form the result of thought?

Only if you believe in free will.  There's some mounting scientific evidence that free will doesn't exist for humans.  Many of the decisions you think you've made have been made unconsciously and then your higher brain functions rationalize a reason for them after the fact.

God how I hate the headlines those studies generate. It's MY unconscious mind, isn't it? Why would my unconscious mind not be considered "me"?

And by the way, the power which you ascribe to the unconscious mind is exactly what Positive Thinking (for lack of a better term) is all about harnessing.

If you lack free will, I fail to see how you can consciously decide to think positively.

[Dorje]

I feel like many of you are not familiar enough with Napoleon Hill's work to be passing judgement on it.  I would describe the law of attraction as taught by Hill as teaching yourself to get things for yourself. 

This is normal... people pass judgement on things they have very little knowledge or experience of, things they have completely misinterpreted because they assume they know it all and there is nothing left to learn. People who think their school degree has taught them every facet of their area of study and they put on the expert hat and never learn another thing while professing to others that they are the experts. Any information they run into that contradicts their beliefs must be wrong... it is never carefully examined, it is thrown out and rejected immediately. The irony is that in science and engineering, they adopt an attitude that approaches religion and they become the least scientific people you'll ever find. I mean, just look at sol's condescending know-it-all attitude he posts with. You can't tell someone like that anything, it's not possible.

I've found it's very difficult for people to say "I don't know so I will keep an open mind". Instead they jump to conclusions and embrace a judgement that frequently has very little to do with reality. This is based on ignorance and insecurity, and it's rampant in this society.

People who think the law of attraction is based on wishing for things have no clue. I wrote in my last post that it is about the process of changing your personal belief system to something that works better for you than your current beliefs. It's really that simple.

[TheBuddha]

But, there is no law of attraction.   Napoleon Hill is a bullshit artist.   You cannot "manifest" things you want by thinking about it.   You can take action reasonably calculated to achieve your goals to some degree.

I would wager that anyone who has invented anything would disagree with you. Isn't EVERYTHING that comes into existence in tangible form the result of thought?

Only if you believe in free will.  There's some mounting scientific evidence that free will doesn't exist for humans.  Many of the decisions you think you've made have been made unconsciously and then your higher brain functions rationalize a reason for them after the fact.

God how I hate the headlines those studies generate. It's MY unconscious mind, isn't it? Why would my unconscious mind not be considered "me"?

And by the way, the power which you ascribe to the unconscious mind is exactly what Positive Thinking (for lack of a better term) is all about harnessing.

If you lack free will, I fail to see how you can consciously decide to think positively.

Good thing I have free will then :)

[bacchi]

The irony is that in science and engineering, they adopt an attitude that approaches religion and they become the least scientific people you'll ever find.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

I've found it's very difficult for people to say "I don't know so I will keep an open mind". Instead they jump to conclusions and embrace a judgement that frequently has very little to do with reality. This is based on ignorance and insecurity, and it's rampant in this society.

Ok, I'll keep an open mind. Give me a reproducible experiment* to prove that the Law of Attraction is real or, even better, a peer-reviewed study of the Law of Attraction. Thanks.




* Anecdotal stories don't count.

[Dorje]

I don't think that word means what you think it means.



Ok, I'll keep an open mind.

Yes, it does. Dude, I'm an engineer... stop being so patronizing and correcting minor things I have said intentionally. You're being ridiculous.

[bacchi]

Waiting for those studies. Thanks.

[swick]

MOD NOTE: A reminder that responses should keep in mind the following forum rules: "Don't be a jerk" and "attack an argument, not a person" I REALLY don't want to be spending my time moderating a back and forth. Thanks.

[OttoVonBisquick]

MOD NOTE: A reminder that responses should keep in mind the following forum rules: "Don't be a jerk" and "attack an argument, not a person" I REALLY don't want to be spending my time moderating a back and forth. Thanks.

Been following this thread, and I have to agree. It so often happens that an argument becomes one of ad hominem, likely because people become offended when their line of thinking is criticized, so they fire back about why the other person is not right in criticizing them, for whatever reason, to make such a claim. There is an atomic-scale line between that and being insulting, and most people cannot stay on the right side of it, and those who do often find the other person getting insulted anyways.

I find it best to try and just take what the person meant, interpret it as if you were them, and argue why that's wrong.

Sorry if I sound like a douchebag, I just struggle at communicating unambiguously so as not to give people the wrong interpretation of my words, so I have to overcompensate.

Anyways, I also consider myself absurdly lucky, definitely far more so than almost everyone I've ever met. Maybe this is just my learned world-view, but I do also practice gratitude for literally every little thing I can find.

I just lost a tournament in the 2nd round (of 5). I had an amazing time, was so glad that my serves were on fire, and was grateful to lose as an attempt to learn. I in no way desired to lose, and really, really fought to win, and don't think any more mental effort would somehow magically impact the outcome of my match. I don't think anybody can affect outcomes other than empowering physical/verbal action via motivation and training.

[NoraLenderbee]

I feel like many of you are not familiar enough with Napoleon Hill's work to be passing judgement on it.  I would describe the law of attraction as taught by Hill as teaching yourself to get things for yourself. 

Have you ever been shopping for a specific model of car?  You do your research on the Prius.  The next day you drive to work and you see Prius cars everywhere when you had never noticed any on your drive to work before. 

Did you "attract" more of the Prius in to your life?  Of course not, that would be metaphysical bullshit.  Did you start to see them when you had not seen them before because you had started to research them?  I would say yes. 

Hill's works are key on focusing on your definite chief aim, and on doing the work.  In fact one of the 16 lessons in law of success is about doing more work than for which you are paid. 

The key point of Hill's work to me is getting you to focus on your definite chief aim and then you start seeing things to do to accomplish your goals.  A chief aim such as "to earn a million dollars" is not specific enough.  You would set a chief aim of something like  "to earn a million dollars by selling carpet by the year 2020".  You then focus enough on that, that you start to see things, people, and ideas that can help you achieve your aim.

I would say it is not the world that changes through this system, only you.  I cannot comment on other iterations of the law of attraction, but Hill's seems to at least make sense to me.

If that's what his message is, I have no problem with it. I admit I've never read Hill. I have heard a lot about the law of attraction, but until now, everything I heard was like "visualize money and it will come to you" type of stuff, not about actually working toward your goals.

[GuitarStv]

But, there is no law of attraction.   Napoleon Hill is a bullshit artist.   You cannot "manifest" things you want by thinking about it.   You can take action reasonably calculated to achieve your goals to some degree.

I would wager that anyone who has invented anything would disagree with you. Isn't EVERYTHING that comes into existence in tangible form the result of thought?

Only if you believe in free will.  There's some mounting scientific evidence that free will doesn't exist for humans.  Many of the decisions you think you've made have been made unconsciously and then your higher brain functions rationalize a reason for them after the fact.

God how I hate the headlines those studies generate. It's MY unconscious mind, isn't it? Why would my unconscious mind not be considered "me"?

And by the way, the power which you ascribe to the unconscious mind is exactly what Positive Thinking (for lack of a better term) is all about harnessing.

If you lack free will, I fail to see how you can consciously decide to think positively.

Good thing I have free will then :)

 .  .  . or that your brain chemistry predisposes you to believe you do.  Either way.

  :P

[Insanity]

Waiting for those studies. Thanks.

So what you are saying is that gravity didn't exist before we actually studied it?