The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: JoJo on February 05, 2016, 10:17:51 AM
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Got some bad news last night. HOA dues going from $310 to $395 a month and there's plan to have a $27,000 assessment per unit (may be more if rot is found below the siding).
What's the largest special assessment or home repair you've had to make?
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What is the value of your place? We used to rent in a development with a HOA. The value of the condos was about 200K, HOA fee at 375$, and there was one small special assessment of 5K (for snow removal and winter damage after a particularly bad winter, and talk of a large special assessment for some big maintenance projects.
I'm wondering because these costs seem really high for multi-unit dwellings. We're looking at buying a house, and everything I've read says to budget 1.5%/year for maintenance. At our previous rental the HOA fees were already 2.25% of the home's value every year. If I owned one of these units, I would be pissed if it turned out the HOA board hadn't been saving through the years for the eventual roof replacement, bad winter, etc.
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Thus why I don't want to buy a house with HOA.
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This is why I'm glad my HOA only has a pool and a tennis court. The less community property there is to maintain, the less exposure I have to a shocking special assessment.
I have an old SFH where the main drain line is being breached by tree roots and will eventually need to be replaced. That will probably run five to six thousand dollars and will likely be the most expensive repair needed until the next time the roof wears out.
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This is definitely a big factor in my decision to never buy Vancouver real estate - strata special levies. One coworker recently got hit with a 40K one. The highest I've ever heard of was one case my boyfriend mentioned that was about 100K per unit, and that one was particularly bad because it was for some structural critical thing that was increasing in cost by the day, but many of the owners didn't want to pay it, so there was a fight going on while the building was literally collapsing. I'm not sure what eventually happened - I'll have to ask him about it.
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This is a condo with 20 units. I think the $27,000 is just the start... there's lots of cosmetic stuff too (replacing parking lot, cement, railings etc) that isn't included. And this is only a 800 square foot condo in 2 buildings!
It doesn't help that one of the unit owner brought a suit against the HOA that went all the way to court last year (complained about people above them that put in hardwood floors, ants in the unit, and general not maintaining). The judge ruled in favor of the HOA but our legal costs to defend were $100K - or $5K per unit owner. We're hoping to recover some but can't count on it.
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We don't have a huge HOA since we have a single family residence. But we do pay $75/mo because we have a management company that takes care of all of our front yard landscaping as well as make decisions for the architectural committee.
For work though, I just appraised a condominium here on the Peninsula in the Bay Area, CA and the unit I appraised paya $897/month. Most of the other condominium developments in this neighborhood pay close to $500 but this particular development was higher. They didn't have any special assessments but they liked to keep high reserves apparently. I guess its all relative, the unit I saw was a 3 bedroom/2.5 bathroom with 1,750 square feet that was worth a little bit over $1.3M. Either way, its a crap load of money for the condo and the monthly HOA fee.
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This is a condo with 20 units. I think the $27,000 is just the start... there's lots of cosmetic stuff too (replacing parking lot, cement, railings etc) that isn't included. And this is only a 800 square foot condo in 2 buildings!
It doesn't help that one of the unit owner brought a suit against the HOA that went all the way to court last year (complained about people above them that put in hardwood floors, ants in the unit, and general not maintaining). The judge ruled in favor of the HOA but our legal costs to defend were $100K - or $5K per unit owner. We're hoping to recover some but can't count on it.
Well.. at least it cost that unit owner $5k extra as well... given he is part of the HOA (how do you go about essentially suing yourself is anyones guess but hey).
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This is why I'm glad my HOA only has a pool and a tennis court. The less community property there is to maintain, the less exposure I have to a shocking special assessment.
I have an old SFH where the main drain line is being breached by tree roots and will eventually need to be replaced. That will probably run five to six thousand dollars and will likely be the most expensive repair needed until the next time the roof wears out.
Our old development didn't have a pool or a tennis court. There was a very small playground. After hurricane Irene damaged the sandbox they just got rid of it, though the slide and two swings remained. There was a lot of little stuff that made it obvious that the property wasn't well managed or that many units weren't paying their HOA fees. I'm glad we were renting.
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We just had a friend who cancelled a closing, a few days before buying a condo on the beach, in North Carolina. He ended up listening to a neighbor complain about the upcoming $40K special assessment. The realtor was hoping to close the deal without mentioning it. The assessment represented a bit less than 25% of the sale price. Needless to say, he was a bit unhappy with the realtor.
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Thus why I don't want to buy a house with HOA.
I'm curious, do you think only homes in HOA's are susceptible to rot below the siding??
This is why I'm glad my HOA only has a pool and a tennis court. The less community property there is to maintain, the less exposure I have to a shocking special assessment.
I have an old SFH where the main drain line is being breached by tree roots and will eventually need to be replaced. That will probably run five to six thousand dollars and will likely be the most expensive repair needed until the next time the roof wears out.
The OP stated that the special assessment may be for rot under the siding. How does the fact that your HOA only has a tennis court and pool factor in as relevant here? Do you not have siding?
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The thing about HOA's is that if you own your own home free of an HOA, YOU decide when and how much to spend on maintenance and repairs. If you have an HOA, THEY decide how much to spend and when and how often. My husband and I might decide, for example, we need new windows, but we can't afford them this year and we will revisit the situation next year. Even more likely, my husband would install the windows himself. If we were enslaved to an HOA, they would decide when to do the windows, how much to spend and charge us an assessment for, and very definitely they would hire a contractor to do the work. I will never live in a place with an HOA again if I can possibly help it.
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The thing about HOA's is that if you own your own home free of an HOA, YOU decide when and how much to spend on maintenance and repairs. If you have an HOA, THEY decide how much to spend and when and how often. My husband and I might decide, for example, we need new windows, but we can't afford them this year and we will revisit the situation next year.
Exactly right.
I will never live in a place with an HOA again if I can possibly help it.
I agree, but you're also confusing HOAs for attached buildings (condos/townhomes) with HOAs for single family homes, to some extent. Most single family home HOAs aren't going to be subject to special assessments except for maybe on shared common areas (fix the pool, for instance). And it's really hard (impossible?) to avoid some form of HOA in a condo/town home.
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Largest HOA assessment I've heard of is, "Sorry, you're SOL for the full value of your property"
It was a case example in my risk management class. Background was some bored retiree rube ran for and was elected to be the Treasurer of the HOA. After a little while in the role, he ended up having a friend who happened to be an insurance agent (don't we all have "that guy/girl"?) who could "beat his rate" for whatever the HOA was paying for master insurance, and give him a bit of a kickback on his commission. You can probably guess where this is going.
"Buddy" beats his rate, never mind it is inferior coverage. Treasurer cancels old insurance (as in stops paying premiums). Major fire happens, levels all the units. The HOA goes to put in the insurance claim and come to find out, they aren't fully covered like they used to be (money saved by going from replacement cost to depreciated value coverage), and end up short to the tune of having to level a special assessment for $10k per owner that should have been $0. Owch, right?
The owners aren't happy that, without authorization and against the bylaws, the Treasurer changed policies. They petition the original insurance company to reinstate the policy under the appeal that the Treasurer wasn't authorized to cancel the policy. Original insurance company points to rule that if the premiums aren't paid, the policy is void. Oh well, it was worth a shot right? Guess we'll all have to pay that $10k, right?
It gets worse. 2nd insurance company finds out from the 1st insurance company that the Treasurer wasn't authorized to purchase a policy. 2nd insurer points to a clause in their agreement that they're conducting with a "duly authorized representative of the HOA", and as the Treasurer had no authority to buy the policy, it too is void. Premium returned.
Yeah. That rube retiree's $250k in wealth (other than his freshly burned down condo now worth $0) would have been just about enough to pay to clear all the rubble from the lots so they could sell the land...except it was 100% protected from judgement because it's in 401ks/IRAs. Each and every unit owner had to eat a 100% loss, on what were about $300k units.
HOAs and their boards are a mother.
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Thus why I don't want to buy a house with HOA.
I'm curious, do you think only homes in HOA's are susceptible to rot below the siding??
This is why I'm glad my HOA only has a pool and a tennis court. The less community property there is to maintain, the less exposure I have to a shocking special assessment.
I have an old SFH where the main drain line is being breached by tree roots and will eventually need to be replaced. That will probably run five to six thousand dollars and will likely be the most expensive repair needed until the next time the roof wears out.
The OP stated that the special assessment may be for rot under the siding. How does the fact that your HOA only has a tennis court and pool factor in as relevant here? Do you not have siding?
Unfortunately the assessment is just for regular siding. If there's rot it may be much more than $27,000
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Not having an HOA for a condo could be worse.
I rented in a place where the organizer of the HOA moved out and nobody else wanted to do it - so they hired a letting agency to manage the property. Their fee was low but every little job they could find to do - they would send their own tradesmen to perform.
They got around it by showing quotes for other contractor's call out fee to change a single light bulb was more than the $100 they charged.
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I was on the board for our old HOA for SFH's. The HOA just covered property maintenance of common areas (mowing, gardens, etc) so fees were low, ~200 a year. Well despite the low fees, we had gobs of money- we needed maybe half that in dues. So over time the reserves were becoming insane. But we were advised to keep the fees flat, and not decrease them, because someday in 20 years people will be pissed that we had to increase them.
It was a bizarre power structure. We had a PM that helped us (handled mailings, collection of fees, legal stuff with transferring deeds when houses were sold). All this stuff was way beyond the board's scope to manage. The first employee was amazing, but she left, and the new guy was a moron. If we hadn't left the 'hood, I was in favor of firing the PM and getting a new one. But as a board member, it very much felt like I had no expertise in how to do any of this stuff- how would I even go about doing that?
If I ever buy into a HOA property again, I will definitely plan to be on the board. And if it is a condo, I will do a LOT of research beforehand. I was comfortable with the level of risk for SFH's but condos are a whole 'nother ball game.
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This is a condo with 20 units. I think the $27,000 is just the start... there's lots of cosmetic stuff too (replacing parking lot, cement, railings etc) that isn't included. And this is only a 800 square foot condo in 2 buildings!
It doesn't help that one of the unit owner brought a suit against the HOA that went all the way to court last year (complained about people above them that put in hardwood floors, ants in the unit, and general not maintaining). The judge ruled in favor of the HOA but our legal costs to defend were $100K - or $5K per unit owner. We're hoping to recover some but can't count on it.
Well.. at least it cost that unit owner $5k extra as well... given he is part of the HOA (how do you go about essentially suing yourself is anyones guess but hey).
It cost them way over $5K... I'm thinking they spent at least $50K for their own lawyer. The details are ridiculous... they asked the association to pay $10K for soundproofing and they said no. They took it to arbitration and the board was then willing to just pay the 10K to make them go away but at the last minute they up'ed it to 30K so everything fell apart. Eventually it went up to court. They called 14 witnesses (including 6 board members, 2 people from our mgmt company, 2 people from pest control, 2 owners above them) and wanted 10 full days of the court's time. Thank God the judge refused that at the end and made them cancel most of the witnesses to get it down to a 5 day case. They are just not reasonable people.
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i live in a lake community so we ahve an HOA. to maintain everything. Its all run very well and we have stock piles of cash. They did however waste a bunch of money suing over a purple play set.
Info here:
http://fox4kc.com/2015/08/29/judge-rules-in-favor-of-controversial-purple-playset-in-lees-summit/
waste of time and money and the playset doesnt even look that bad.
Nonetheless we're still very solvent so its not a huge deal.
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When was the place built? With that kind of assessment, I'd be looking at suing the builder.
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When was the place built? With that kind of assessment, I'd be looking at suing the builder.
Was apartments built in 1977. Converted to Condos in early 2007 - absolute peak of market here. We actually did sue the developer and insurance for the conversion. Won about $400K after lawyer fees and there's no more to get there. $225K of that went for a new roof and replace a couple rotting chimneys & deck work. After the recent owner's lawsuit we're down to $150K and the siding project & painting will be around $500K. That doesn't include some cosmetic stuff that folks have been complaining about that probably totals another $100K (parking lot, internal halls painting, replacing some rusty railings, etc.)
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I've known more than one person who bought into a new development, and when something turned out to have been done wrong (for example bad plywood used for the roofs, they all had to replaced) they find out that the "builder" routinely forms a company, builds a development, closes the company and/or declares bankruptcy to avoid paying contractors, and starts a new company. Nobody to legally sue.
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I got hit with a 64K one last year in my 12-unit Manhattan apartment (condo).
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I'm in an area of HOA controlled resort communities that often have lakes as amenities. A while back, after a few unpleasant failures, the state required complete structural reviews of any lake that is contained within a manmade dam. Our community ended up dropping four million dollars to repair our failing dam. Fortunately, we live in a large community, and they were savvy enough to get a govt. grant to cover half the costs, so it was a pretty light hit at $1000 per lot, payable in two yearly payments. That said, other communities had to drain lakes and breach dams, since they just couldn't afford to make them safe. Hell of a situation to own a lakefront single family home that no longer has any water to look at.
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Yikes! What happens if people can't afford large assessments? Can they force you to sell or do they just put a lien on your unit and recoup later? What about seniors on fixed income? Are they given the boot too?
I've been considering selling my house and possibly downsizing g to a small condo at some point but after reading this thread I don't think I'd go that way - will just rent or get another SFH without an HOA.
For our apartment building, everyone (except me) bought when the units were appraised at ~55% of what they're worth now, so they took home equity loans. I cash flowed some, HELOC-ed some, and 401(K) loaned some. If people don't pay and there's not a loan/pay over time option, the board is more or less required to begin proceedings on those units. It's a crapshoot, though, because once one unit is being sold at auction after a (presumably) lengthy process kicking the owner out, everyone's unit falls in value.
I don't think I'd buy a condo if I weren't in a large city and downtown. It's not like I can buy a SFH in Manhattan. Even if I could, a huge part of the price is just that it is legitimately VERY expensive to get work done in Manhattan, so it'd be just as expensive if it were my own building.
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This is why I'm glad my HOA only has a pool and a tennis court. The less community property there is to maintain, the less exposure I have to a shocking special assessment.
I have an old SFH where the main drain line is being breached by tree roots and will eventually need to be replaced. That will probably run five to six thousand dollars and will likely be the most expensive repair needed until the next time the roof wears out.
The OP stated that the special assessment may be for rot under the siding. How does the fact that your HOA only has a tennis court and pool factor in as relevant here? Do you not have siding?
I have no siding on a house with brick walls, but that's not really the point. The point is that the HOA can only levy assessments for repairs on communal property. For repairs to my own house (including the walls), I'm in control of when and how and how much it will cost to get done, because my house is not communal. Hence, the less property maintained by the HOA, the less exposure an individual homeowner has to big surprise assessment fees.
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Reading this makes me glad we didn't buy a condo, even if they are sometimes more efficient. I cannot stand having others control my money and having the say as to when maintenance is taken care of. I also do not like trusting that others have my best interest in mind when dealing with something as important and expensive as housing.
I remember an old co-worker told me his condo HOA had told implemented a $16K special assessment. It was the first time I had ever heard about SA's. Looking back, I owe that guy a beer.
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To be fair, I think sometimes condo associations (at least in big crowded cities) get backed up against the wall by teh Department of Buildings in a way that single family homeowners do not. Once the DOB is involved, you do exactly what they say on their timeline. And I'm not sure the DOB is even out of line with its sometimes crazy demands. The potential loss of life and property if my building collapsed is huge. It would possibly pull down the one next to it with which we share ~60' of brick wall, it would definitely throw debris in to six other lots including a church with a daycare out back, and it would fall in to a public park where people go to garden with their families. if it were bigger, I'd worry about the effects on the pipes/gas/subway underneath.
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I'm sort of wondering if I should suggest to see if there's a buyer that wants to buy out the property. We'd avoid the assessment, we could return about $10K per unit that's sitting in reserve, plus whatever we could get for the sale.
This easily could be a tear down - other apartment buildings built nearby in the same time frame have started being torn down to build nicer townhomes and office buildings. Our condo is an especially large lot with great location/view.
Coming to a collective price per homeowner would probably be impossible. The unit sizes are similar but the location in building & views are so different that the selling prices in 2007 varied from $400K-$550K. Some people also negotiated more parking spaces.
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Why do people always refer to HOAs as THEY.
My last place had an HOA. It was okay.. how did I make sure it was OK? I was on the board. Used my MMM knowledge as treasurer, and generally kept things above board.
Don't just be a member and hate it, join the leadership and see the other side of the problem ;)
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Why do people always refer to HOAs as THEY.
My last place had an HOA. It was okay.. how did I make sure it was OK? I was on the board. Used my MMM knowledge as treasurer, and generally kept things above board.
Don't just be a member and hate it, join the leadership and see the other side of the problem ;)
Having to actively participate in something just to ensure I don't get fucked by it doesn't really appeal to me. I'm a big "live and let live" guy, don't tell me what to do with my property and I promise to do the same WRT yours.
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We just had a friend who cancelled a closing, a few days before buying a condo on the beach, in North Carolina. He ended up listening to a neighbor complain about the upcoming $40K special assessment. The realtor was hoping to close the deal without mentioning it. The assessment represented a bit less than 25% of the sale price. Needless to say, he was a bit unhappy with the realtor.
Don't you have to disclose assessments if you know about them before the sale?
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The largest one I have ever had was $5k for an insurance deductible to repair the roof after a hurricane. The HOA took out a loan and we had to pay an extra $89/mo for 5 years. Of course, if it was my own SFH I imagine I would have had to pay for that too, so I couldn't complain too much. It sounds like the OP would have been screwed if the same thing happened in a SFH as well. Just bad luck.
It can be risky putting your maintenance in someone else's hands, but many times board members are volunteers who are trying to help the community. You can always run for the board yourself if you need to have a little control. That said, having a SFH and doing everything on your own terms will always give the most peace of mind.
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We just had a friend who cancelled a closing, a few days before buying a condo on the beach, in North Carolina. He ended up listening to a neighbor complain about the upcoming $40K special assessment. The realtor was hoping to close the deal without mentioning it. The assessment represented a bit less than 25% of the sale price. Needless to say, he was a bit unhappy with the realtor.
Don't you have to disclose assessments if you know about them before the sale?
I would believe so, otherwise you'd surely get sued. However, I don't know what the laws are when an assessment is being discussed but not final. One of the units in my condo is pending. They put it up for sale the week after we got the letter for the annual meeting and stating we'd be discussing an assessment. The assessment amount is still pending... we voted to do some sampling around the building to determine if we really need new siding around the whole building or can just patch in a few known areas with water intrusion.
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$27k per unit for siding sounds completely insane. I'm almost certain I could re-side my parents' McMansion for that price. Given that a condo owner should be responsible for a smaller ratio of exterior wall square footage to floor space square footage than a single-family house owner, I don't understand how it can be that expensive.
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$27k per unit for siding sounds completely insane. I'm almost certain I could re-side my parents' McMansion for that price. Given that a condo owner should be responsible for a smaller ratio of exterior wall square footage to floor space square footage than a single-family house owner, I don't understand how it can be that expensive.
We repointed brick, and a huge portion of the costs were scaffolding. It gets up there in cost on more than two-story buildings, especially in dense areas.
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I'm in an area of HOA controlled resort communities that often have lakes as amenities. A while back, after a few unpleasant failures, the state required complete structural reviews of any lake that is contained within a manmade dam. Our community ended up dropping four million dollars to repair our failing dam. Fortunately, we live in a large community, and they were savvy enough to get a govt. grant to cover half the costs, so it was a pretty light hit at $1000 per lot, payable in two yearly payments. That said, other communities had to drain lakes and breach dams, since they just couldn't afford to make them safe. Hell of a situation to own a lakefront single family home that no longer has any water to look at.
Around here, we had an entire (very small) city (http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/berkeley-lake-wants-fema-to-pay-more-for-dam-repai/nQckY/) that had that sort of problem. (Apparently, FEMA eventually agreed to bail them out (https://www.fema.gov/news-release/2012/01/20/berkeley-lake-gets-26-million-federal-grant-repair-dam).)
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Yikes! What happens if people can't afford large assessments? Can they force you to sell or do they just put a lien on your unit and recoup later? What about seniors on fixed income? Are they given the boot too?
I've been considering selling my house and possibly downsizing g to a small condo at some point but after reading this thread I don't think I'd go that way - will just rent or get another SFH without an HOA.
My mother bought a condo in an old, 1920's building. It had Low condo fees, delayed maintenance, cond board run by peole who know nothng about buildngs. A recipe for the $$$ assesment that came later. She was fine since she had money but the eejits who had been pissing away cndo fees n yard decorations had to sell.
Also, lots of stories of condo owners around here who dont pay fees. Sure, theoretically the condo assoc,takes them to court but nothng real results.
I would never ever ever buy a condo in flyover country. I keep hearing these tales of woe.I wpuld lways rent, first.
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Don't just be a member and hate it, join the leadership and see the other side of the problem ;)
This works... assuming you can get elected. Where I live they use a proxy system so one person can go around and collect as many votes from their neighbors as they want. It's astonishingly easy to not get elected if you're "on the other side," even if you have experience on another HOA board. Oh well, not much I can do about things until next year when I try again. Unless by then I've given up and decided to sell, which is very much an option.
Don't you have to disclose assessments if you know about them before the sale?
As others have said, yes you do need to disclose knowledge of an upcoming assessment. It's a question on the disclosure forms that I have seen and used. This might vary by state, I'm not sure. A quick email to a local realtor would get you an answer.
I'm pretty terrified of a large special assessment. They're planning on replacing the tennis courts to the tune of over $500/unit - but claim there won't be a special assessment. All while whining about the low reserves fund. Biggest mistake of my life so far was buying this condo (3 months before I found MMM, gah!) The market has turned a bit sour so selling right now is not ideal.
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I've known more than one person who bought into a new development, and when something turned out to have been done wrong (for example bad plywood used for the roofs, they all had to replaced) they find out that the "builder" routinely forms a company, builds a development, closes the company and/or declares bankruptcy to avoid paying contractors, and starts a new company. Nobody to legally sue.
CORPORATION, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility.
-- Amborse Bierce
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I've known more than one person who bought into a new development, and when something turned out to have been done wrong (for example bad plywood used for the roofs, they all had to replaced) they find out that the "builder" routinely forms a company, builds a development, closes the company and/or declares bankruptcy to avoid paying contractors, and starts a new company. Nobody to legally sue.
CORPORATION, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility.
-- Amborse Bierce
Yup, that's what happened to us. Of course we have a judgment against them, but it's worthless. And then contractors wonder why we're up their butt about things sometimes, haha.
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In the past we have owned condos and what we have seen it is best to live in a complex with 200 units because then there are many people to split the bills with. We lived in one that only had 40 units and an inside pool. The board wanted to charge everyone 20k to fix it and other improvements. My hubby is a PE in civil engineering so was able to get that # down to 4k per unit. Some people wanted to close the pool permanently but some bought into that building for that very reason. If we get really old and no longer want a house I would make sure it had lots of units and a big reserve fund.
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In the past we have owned condos and what we have seen it is best to live in a complex with 200 units because then there are many people to split the bills with. We lived in one that only had 40 units and an inside pool. The board wanted to charge everyone 20k to fix it and other improvements. My hubby is a PE in civil engineering so was able to get that # down to 4k per unit. Some people wanted to close the pool permanently but some bought into that building for that very reason. If we get really old and no longer want a house I would make sure it had lots of units and a big reserve fund.
Well stated. Our lake community that I discussed previously has 4K lots, roughly 60% built out.
We run a reserve of several million, and spending $400-800K per year to repave roads is just SOP. Other smaller communities in the area vary from very high dues (10x ours) and spectacular amenities, to dead broke and trying to hustle up enough cash to fill in the potholes on the "gravel" roads, which look a lot more like dirt roads to me. Over time this radically impacts resale value, with our community bringing a serious premium over adjoining smaller ones that are poorly run.
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Yikes! What happens if people can't afford large assessments? Can they force you to sell or do they just put a lien on your unit and recoup later? What about seniors on fixed income? Are they given the boot too?
I've been considering selling my house and possibly downsizing g to a small condo at some point but after reading this thread I don't think I'd go that way - will just rent or get another SFH without an HOA.
My mother bought a condo in an old, 1920's building. It had Low condo fees, delayed maintenance, cond board run by peole who know nothng about buildngs. A recipe for the $$$ assesment that came later. She was fine since she had money but the eejits who had been pissing away cndo fees n yard decorations had to sell.
Also, lots of stories of condo owners around here who dont pay fees. Sure, theoretically the condo assoc,takes them to court but nothng real results.
I would never ever ever buy a condo in flyover country. I keep hearing these tales of woe.I wpuld lways rent, first.
As a former owner of a town home in flyover country, my recommendation would actually be to analyze the market to see if it makes sense to buy, then ask for the HOA's financials to see if they're solid, then meet the board to see if they're crazy or not. Our association was small (16), but was set up and run by smart people originally who then handed down pretty bullet proof processes to future boards. All big purchases up to 30 years in advance were planned with their own dedicated funds, then had an additional emergency slush fund that needed to be funded up to whatever the current deductibles were on the insurance plans; what I thought was particularly smart was that they planned for only 80% of the units to be paying dues at any particular time so they were always working from conservative plans.
We lived there 7 years and the first year the dues were $200 per month and when we left, they were $225, but the board was contemplating reducing them back to $215 because the funds were all well ahead of where they needed to be.
tltr; condos/townhomes can be great buys, but I'd start investigating strength of the home owner's association before I looked at the view in the backyard or at the pretty tile in the kitchen.
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As a former owner of a town home in flyover country, my recommendation would actually be to analyze the market to see if it makes sense to buy, then ask for the HOA's financials to see if they're solid, then meet the board to see if they're crazy or not. Our association was small (16), but was set up and run by smart people originally who then handed down pretty bullet proof processes to future boards. All big purchases up to 30 years in advance were planned with their own dedicated funds, then had an additional emergency slush fund that needed to be funded up to whatever the current deductibles were on the insurance plans; what I thought was particularly smart was that they planned for only 80% of the units to be paying dues at any particular time so they were always working from conservative plans.
We lived there 7 years and the first year the dues were $200 per month and when we left, they were $225, but the board was contemplating reducing them back to $215 because the funds were all well ahead of where they needed to be.
tltr; condos/townhomes can be great buys, but I'd start investigating strength of the home owner's association before I looked at the view in the backyard or at the pretty tile in the kitchen.
Very nice to hear the other side of the HOA spectrum. If we ever buy a condo/townhome, I planned on doing exactly that; looking over their financials like I was looking over a corporations financial statements. If I could meet the board members as well, that would be great. Thanks for the tips.
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Yikes! What happens if people can't afford large assessments? Can they force you to sell or do they just put a lien on your unit and recoup later? What about seniors on fixed income? Are they given the boot too?
I've been considering selling my house and possibly downsizing g to a small condo at some point but after reading this thread I don't think I'd go that way - will just rent or get another SFH without an HOA.
My mother bought a condo in an old, 1920's building. It had Low condo fees, delayed maintenance, cond board run by peole who know nothng about buildngs. A recipe for the $$$ assesment that came later. She was fine since she had money but the eejits who had been pissing away cndo fees n yard decorations had to sell.
Also, lots of stories of condo owners around here who dont pay fees. Sure, theoretically the condo assoc,takes them to court but nothng real results.
I would never ever ever buy a condo in flyover country. I keep hearing these tales of woe.I wpuld lways rent, first.
As a former owner of a town home in flyover country, my recommendation would actually be to analyze the market to see if it makes sense to buy, then ask for the HOA's financials to see if they're solid, then meet the board to see if they're crazy or not. Our association was small (16), but was set up and run by smart people originally who then handed down pretty bullet proof processes to future boards. All big purchases up to 30 years in advance were planned with their own dedicated funds, then had an additional emergency slush fund that needed to be funded up to whatever the current deductibles were on the insurance plans; what I thought was particularly smart was that they planned for only 80% of the units to be paying dues at any particular time so they were always working from conservative plans.
We lived there 7 years and the first year the dues were $200 per month and when we left, they were $225, but the board was contemplating reducing them back to $215 because the funds were all well ahead of where they needed to be.
tltr; condos/townhomes can be great buys, but I'd start investigating strength of the home owner's association before I looked at the view in the backyard or at the pretty tile in the kitchen.
Younarwnright.
But most people ncludng me wouodnt be able to read the balance sheet of an HOAto know if it is solvent. I know that is standard advise for peole contemplatng a cond puechase and it is good advice.
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Got some bad news last night. HOA dues going from $310 to $395 a month and there's plan to have a $27,000 assessment per unit (may be more if rot is found below the siding).
WTF? For that kind of money, your homeowners association better be providing you with hookers and blow (or wine, women and song, if you are over 50).
What the Hell could possibly warrant that kind of extortion?
Good God, we pay $50 per year to a VOLUNTARY HOA. The neighborhood looks fine. Though I'll admit, we don't have HOA nazis measuring the height of our grass every week- though some would say that's a good thing.
Can anyone tell me why mandatory HOA's exist, and why anyone would voluntarily subject themselves to one?
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The thing about HOA's is that if you own your own home free of an HOA, YOU decide when and how much to spend on maintenance and repairs. If you have an HOA, THEY decide how much to spend and when and how often. My husband and I might decide, for example, we need new windows, but we can't afford them this year and we will revisit the situation next year. Even more likely, my husband would install the windows himself. If we were enslaved to an HOA, they would decide when to do the windows, how much to spend and charge us an assessment for, and very definitely they would hire a contractor to do the work. I will never live in a place with an HOA again if I can possibly help it.
I'd sooner have my testicles slowly crushed in a vice than subject myself to the arbitrary and often stupid whims of an HOB. I have no idea why anyone would voluntarily submit to an HOA. There are plenty of perfectly good homes that aren't subject to an HOA.
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I can remember newspaper articles about an attorney who bought a single family home with an HOA. He installed an outdoor play system for his kids, but it was not the kind the HOA approved - so they demanded he take it down. As I recall, he fought them in court and I believe he won.
When husband and I lived in a condo, members of the board would actually walk around with a clipboard, peering at people's curtains to make sure they showed white to the outside. A neighbor received a warning letter about "trash" on her porch when, in fact, it was a bag full of clothing waiting for a Purple Heart pickup. Everything has to be cookie cutter - doors all painted the same; exactly the same kind of storm door; better not have a tomato plant growing outside your door. It's horrible and takes away all individuality. We now live in a mid-century Cape Cod on 3/4 acre of ground. No HOA, naturally. It needs work, but my husband is doing it in his own time and within our budget. He can change oil in our vehicles in our driveway; we can plant anything we want to and have a big vegetable garden. I chose the paint color for our front door. We can hang laundry on outdoor lines, which is better for the environment and saves on our electric bill. HOA's are a money suck as well as an individuality suck.
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Got some bad news last night. HOA dues going from $310 to $395 a month and there's plan to have a $27,000 assessment per unit (may be more if rot is found below the siding).
WTF? For that kind of money, your homeowners association better be providing you with hookers and blow (or wine, women and song, if you are over 50).
What the Hell could possibly warrant that kind of extortion?
Based on the wording (per unit) I'm assuming the poster you were responding to is in a condo/townhome, in which case the assessments tend to be much higher to cover maintenance, groundskeeping, cleaning of common areas, etc etc etc. Versus you apparently are in a SFH, and the assessments likely don't cover much (you mow your own lawn, for instance).
Condo/townhome HOAs are very different than SFH HOAs and not really comparable.
Can anyone tell me why mandatory HOA's exist, and why anyone would voluntarily subject themselves to one?
For SFHs, right there with you, only reason I can see for an HOA is to support common amenities like a neighborhood pool. But just a group of people who exist to make rules on what you can do on your property? Agreed, it's stupid and I'd never buy into one.
For Condos/townhomes, again, someone has to management the maintenance and upkeep of all the stuff the owners DON'T individually manage, thus the HOA.
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OP here... yes HOA is for a Condo (20 units in 2 apartment buildings). Assessment is for siding. I'm almost sure it will end up being more than this. A couple years ago when we replaced the roofs a $90,000 roof job turned into a $200,000+ job to fix some rotting chimneys.
On this siding job. The estimate is only like $200,000 for the actual siding and more than 100% more for "overhead" like state sales tax, permits, architect, inspector, etc.
So our $310 dues were just enough to cover insurance, water, sewage, garbage, outside manager, yardkeeping, and usually 1-2 emergencies per year (leaky pipes, water damage, etc). There was very left over to build reserves, thus the need for the big assessment and dues increase.
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For SFHs, right there with you, only reason I can see for an HOA is to support common amenities like a neighborhood pool. But just a group of people who exist to make rules on what you can do on your property? Agreed, it's stupid and I'd never buy into one.
I thought the reason was to keep %ETHNIC% group out and so keep property values high ?
Ironically here in Vancouver the racists want to keep %ETHNIC% out because they are increase property prices.
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For SFHs, right there with you, only reason I can see for an HOA is to support common amenities like a neighborhood pool. But just a group of people who exist to make rules on what you can do on your property? Agreed, it's stupid and I'd never buy into one.
I thought the reason was to keep %ETHNIC% group out and so keep property values high ?
Ironically here in Vancouver the racists want to keep %ETHNIC% out because they are increase property prices.
It's not about ethnicity it's about a sizeable portion of the city being owned by foreign interests and driving the price up for the Citizens.
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I'm torn on HOAs for SFH. On one hand, if you have ever lived next to "that family", you will wish you had an HOA. On the other hand, I heard a co-worker once talk about how he paid his mortgage upfront while leaving a trip for a couple of months, but forgot about the HOA dues. Comes back to find foreclosure sign on his door as the HOA tried foreclosing on the home and selling it to pay the ~$40 in HOA dues he owed. Ended up in court, paying his lawyer thousands of dollars. He got to keep his home, but was out some of the lawyer $$$ and wasn't particularly popular in the community anymore.
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WE lived in a community of SFH and the HOA would send you a letter if you had 2 weeds growing in your front yard-ugh! Now we live in an older neighborhood without one and most of the houses are well kept except for the one next door to us. It is falling apart, junk filled backyard, washing machine on side of house-ugh! So good and bad about both.
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Our neighborhood has an HOA, all SFH's. It has and annual yearly due and they are pretty lax about stuff. It was a concern when we bought, but it's been pretty cool thus far. I like it because everyone takes care of their yards and homes. There are a few homes that have crap lawns, but NOTHING compared to run down neighborhoods. So I can definitely see the positives of having an HOA for SFH's. It's just the condo/townhome HOA's that I would be leery of.
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My favorite HOA story is that one time some people put an Obama sign in their yard and the HOA objected because it was too big according to the rules. So they cut it in half, thereby creating two signs that are both within paramaters. Weirdly the HOA didn't half a sense of humor and voted themselves power to levy fines on evildoers plus rejected the sign guys' deck modifications. Well the sign people sued saying (1) you can't impose fines for stuff that we never agreed to in the first place and (2) the deck modification rejection was vindictive and therefore invalid. Bearing in mind that the HOA could have relented at any point, they instead chose to literally go bankrupt in legal battle against the no good family and their god damn sign. https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/2013/02/09/d46f9bec-6652-11e2-93e1-475791032daf_story.html
Anyway as regards this thread specifically: And as the case ground on, the HOA increased dues from $650 a year to about $3,500, mostly to cover legal fees.
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For SFHs, right there with you, only reason I can see for an HOA is to support common amenities like a neighborhood pool. But just a group of people who exist to make rules on what you can do on your property? Agreed, it's stupid and I'd never buy into one.
I thought the reason was to keep %ETHNIC% group out and so keep property values high ?
Ironically here in Vancouver the racists want to keep %ETHNIC% out because they are increase property prices.
It's not about ethnicity it's about a sizeable portion of the city being owned by foreign interests and driving the price up for the Citizens.
Perhaps we could Exclude them by way of some Act, as it were.
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Why do people always refer to HOAs as THEY.
My last place had an HOA. It was okay.. how did I make sure it was OK? I was on the board. Used my MMM knowledge as treasurer, and generally kept things above board.
Don't just be a member and hate it, join the leadership and see the other side of the problem ;)
+27,000.
Anyone who buys into an HOA without researching the health of the HOA's finances should lose their right to complain/hate about it. You are required by law to be given that information and you are charged up the ass for it in escrow, so READ IT, people!
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My favorite HOA story is that one time some people put an Obama sign in their yard and the HOA objected because it was too big according to the rules. So they cut it in half, thereby creating two signs that are both within paramaters. Weirdly the HOA didn't half a sense of humor and voted themselves power to levy fines on evildoers plus rejected the sign guys' deck modifications. Well the sign people sued saying (1) you can't impose fines for stuff that we never agreed to in the first place and (2) the deck modification rejection was vindictive and therefore invalid. Bearing in mind that the HOA could have relented at any point, they instead chose to literally go bankrupt in legal battle against the no good family and their god damn sign. https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/2013/02/09/d46f9bec-6652-11e2-93e1-475791032daf_story.html
Anyway as regards this thread specifically: And as the case ground on, the HOA increased dues from $650 a year to about $3,500, mostly to cover legal fees.
My HOA engaged in a battle that lasted a decade, and cost them over $120K in legal fees. They lost every single case they fought, and every appeal. The issue was an "inholding" or a twenty acre empty tract of land that the original developer platted into the plot plan of a huge SFH resort community. The HOA despised the guy who eventually ended up with the property and told him that he would never gain access to land. The HOA had no standing from day one. It was clearly shown on the plan as nothing more than an unusually large lot, and absent the use of the resort's roads, it was landlocked. At one point the judge even proposed that the landowner pay $100K in impact fees, to the HOA, for the right to develop the land into a handful of individual lots. This would allow the HOA to incorporate the new lots into the association and collect additional dues revenue forever. The landowner agreed, and the HOA refused. This angered the judge to the point that he gave permanent easement to the landowner at no cost. Since this is an HOA that collects millions in dues every year, it wasn't a big hit to the budget, but it clearly illustrated to me that it's easy for board members to get drunk on their limited power and do really stupid things.
In another case, with the same HOA, I had to sit the "architectural control committee" down and explain that their "building code" was twenty pages of useless, unenforceable horseshit, that was in direct violation of state law, and exposed all of us, builders, members and the board, to huge liability in the event of an serious structural failure, accident or lawsuit, related to the circus clown of a "building inspector" they had on staff, and the official HOA "code book" he was enforcing, or ignoring, depending on his mood. Fortunately, they were willing to listen and stopped the whole charade.
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My favorite HOA story is that one time some people put an Obama sign in their yard and the HOA objected because it was too big according to the rules. So they cut it in half, thereby creating two signs that are both within paramaters. Weirdly the HOA didn't half a sense of humor and voted themselves power to levy fines on evildoers plus rejected the sign guys' deck modifications. Well the sign people sued saying (1) you can't impose fines for stuff that we never agreed to in the first place and (2) the deck modification rejection was vindictive and therefore invalid. Bearing in mind that the HOA could have relented at any point, they instead chose to literally go bankrupt in legal battle against the no good family and their god damn sign. https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/2013/02/09/d46f9bec-6652-11e2-93e1-475791032daf_story.html
Anyway as regards this thread specifically: And as the case ground on, the HOA increased dues from $650 a year to about $3,500, mostly to cover legal fees.
My HOA engaged in a battle that lasted a decade, and cost them over $120K in legal fees. They lost every single case they fought, and every appeal. The issue was an "inholding" or a twenty acre empty tract of land that the original developer platted into the plot plan of a huge SFH resort community. The HOA despised the guy who eventually ended up with the property and told him that he would never gain access to land. The HOA had no standing from day one. It was clearly shown on the plan as nothing more than an unusually large lot, and absent the use of the resort's roads, it was landlocked. At one point the judge even proposed that the landowner pay $100K in impact fees, to the HOA, for the right to develop the land into a handful of individual lots. This would allow the HOA to incorporate the new lots into the association and collect additional dues revenue forever. The landowner agreed, and the HOA refused. This angered the judge to the point that he gave permanent easement to the landowner at no cost. Since this is an HOA that collects millions in dues every year, it wasn't a big hit to the budget, but it clearly illustrated to me that it's easy for board members to get drunk on their limited power and do really stupid things.
In another case, with the same HOA, I had to sit the "architectural control committee" down and explain that their "building code" was twenty pages of useless, unenforceable horseshit, that was in direct violation of state law, and exposed all of us, builders, members and the board, to huge liability in the event of an serious structural failure, accident or lawsuit, related to the circus clown of a "building inspector" they had on staff, and the official HOA "code book" he was enforcing, or ignoring, depending on his mood. Fortunately, they were willing to listen and stopped the whole charade.
I always like it when people troll the HOAs legalwise because as you say it's usually a million pages of self-contradictory unenforceabe gobbledegook. So it's like oh there's a maximum lawn height, but no minimum? Let me just rip out my lawn and now i have beautiful letter-of-the-law dirt.
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For SFHs, right there with you, only reason I can see for an HOA is to support common amenities like a neighborhood pool. But just a group of people who exist to make rules on what you can do on your property? Agreed, it's stupid and I'd never buy into one.
I thought the reason was to keep %ETHNIC% group out and so keep property values high ?
Ironically here in Vancouver the racists want to keep %ETHNIC% out because they are increase property prices.
It's not about ethnicity it's about a sizeable portion of the city being owned by foreign interests and driving the price up for the Citizens.
Perhaps we could Exclude them by way of some Act, as it were.
We could call it Poe's Act. Ohhh, better yet, Poe's Law!
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[/quote]I always like it when people troll the HOAs legalwise because as you say it's usually a million pages of self-contradictory unenforceabe gobbledegook. So it's like oh there's a maximum lawn height, but no minimum? Let me just rip out my lawn and now i have beautiful letter-of-the-law dirt.
[/quote]
We just finished a lawsuit in which an owner did just that. Really frivolous stuff and they took it all the way to trial. In the end the HOA won but spent over $100,000. Supposedly the judge ruled that the homeowner has to pay it but I haven't heard if any has been recovered. Recovering it means our $27K assessment will be reduced to $22K.
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The thing about HOA's is that if you own your own home free of an HOA, YOU decide when and how much to spend on maintenance and repairs. If you have an HOA, THEY decide how much to spend and when and how often. My husband and I might decide, for example, we need new windows, but we can't afford them this year and we will revisit the situation next year. Even more likely, my husband would install the windows himself. If we were enslaved to an HOA, they would decide when to do the windows, how much to spend and charge us an assessment for, and very definitely they would hire a contractor to do the work. I will never live in a place with an HOA again if I can possibly help it.
Unfortunately voters are allowing municipalities to require all new developments to be done under an HOA. Specifically because the municipality wants the tax revenue from the development without having any financial responsibility for common spaces (parks, etc.).
Effectively it's double taxation.
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This is why I'm glad my HOA only has a pool and a tennis court. The less community property there is to maintain, the less exposure I have to a shocking special assessment.
I have an old SFH where the main drain line is being breached by tree roots and will eventually need to be replaced. That will probably run five to six thousand dollars and will likely be the most expensive repair needed until the next time the roof wears out.
The OP stated that the special assessment may be for rot under the siding. How does the fact that your HOA only has a tennis court and pool factor in as relevant here? Do you not have siding?
I have no siding on a house with brick walls, but that's not really the point. The point is that the HOA can only levy assessments for repairs on communal property. For repairs to my own house (including the walls), I'm in control of when and how and how much it will cost to get done, because my house is not communal. Hence, the less property maintained by the HOA, the less exposure an individual homeowner has to big surprise assessment fees.
Not saying you are wrong in your particular case, but most single family dwellings with an HOA have rules about maintaining exterior appearance. They HOA can tell you, for example, you have to meet "community standards" for paint color, siding material, landscaping, etc. They can't assess you and hire someone to do maintenance on your house, but they can fine and/or put a lien on your house if you don't have that maintenance done. And by "tell you" I mean "remind you of the things you agreed to do when signing the contract".
HOAs are evil personified in (almost always inept and power hungry) board members.
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HOAs are evil personified in (almost always inept and power hungry) board members.
Speaking as someone who is the president (and treasurer) of the board for my HOA (and yes, we're condos), I find that both ignorant and offensive. You want to know why I'm president (and treasurer)? Because literally NO ONE ELSE wanted the job. You know how much I get paid for doing this? Nothing. And I'm pretty sure you don't know how much aggravation and time board members have to put in every single day/week/month dealing with owner complaints, rules violations, emergencies, etc--all of which we rarely get thanked for and more often get called names for.
When something goes wrong--like with a large assessment--everyone wants to blame the board. When everything is going right, no one even remembers the board exists, much less bothers to volunteer to help out. Kindly keep that in mind before you start slinging mud all over the place.
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HOAs are evil personified in (almost always inept and power hungry) board members.
Speaking as someone who is the president (and treasurer) of the board for my HOA (and yes, we're condos), I find that both ignorant and offensive. You want to know why I'm president (and treasurer)? Because literally NO ONE ELSE wanted the job. You know how much I get paid for doing this? Nothing. And I'm pretty sure you don't know how much aggravation and time board members have to put in every single day/week/month dealing with owner complaints, rules violations, emergencies, etc--all of which we rarely get thanked for and more often get called names for.
When something goes wrong--like with a large assessment--everyone wants to blame the board. When everything is going right, no one even remembers the board exists, much less bothers to volunteer to help out. Kindly keep that in mind before you start slinging mud all over the place.
Our board tends to have many of the nasty old ladies on it :( I am hearing they want me to go up for it.. shudder, they are a board member short. It is so depressing because they all argue, otherwise i might, i might still, i am a calm person and could be a good influence.
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HOAs are evil personified in (almost always inept and power hungry) board members.
Speaking as someone who is the president (and treasurer) of the board for my HOA (and yes, we're condos), I find that both ignorant and offensive. You want to know why I'm president (and treasurer)? Because literally NO ONE ELSE wanted the job. You know how much I get paid for doing this? Nothing. And I'm pretty sure you don't know how much aggravation and time board members have to put in every single day/week/month dealing with owner complaints, rules violations, emergencies, etc--all of which we rarely get thanked for and more often get called names for.
When something goes wrong--like with a large assessment--everyone wants to blame the board. When everything is going right, no one even remembers the board exists, much less bothers to volunteer to help out. Kindly keep that in mind before you start slinging mud all over the place.
Our board tends to have many of the nasty old ladies on it :( I am hearing they want me to go up for it.. shudder, they are a board member short. It is so depressing because they all argue, otherwise i might, i might still, i am a calm person and could be a good influence.
I get recruited every year for our small building. Maybe when I'm done with my full-time grind job in a couple years.
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HOAs are evil personified in (almost always inept and power hungry) board members.
Speaking as someone who is the president (and treasurer) of the board for my HOA (and yes, we're condos), I find that both ignorant and offensive. You want to know why I'm president (and treasurer)? Because literally NO ONE ELSE wanted the job. You know how much I get paid for doing this? Nothing. And I'm pretty sure you don't know how much aggravation and time board members have to put in every single day/week/month dealing with owner complaints, rules violations, emergencies, etc--all of which we rarely get thanked for and more often get called names for.
When something goes wrong--like with a large assessment--everyone wants to blame the board. When everything is going right, no one even remembers the board exists, much less bothers to volunteer to help out. Kindly keep that in mind before you start slinging mud all over the place.
Honestly, not making much of a case for needing an HOA in the first place. Let people solve their own damn disputes, or let them learn to be big boys and girls and not worry about what everyone else does with their own fucking property. Most of the rules violations I've heard about are things like "so and so has unauthorized colors on their curtains" or "so and so has a plant that died on their front porch and didn't remove it within 72 hours" or "so and so stored some lawn chairs on their patio instead of on the garage" and that sort of busybody horseshit.
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HOAs are evil personified in (almost always inept and power hungry) board members.
Speaking as someone who is the president (and treasurer) of the board for my HOA (and yes, we're condos), I find that both ignorant and offensive. You want to know why I'm president (and treasurer)? Because literally NO ONE ELSE wanted the job. You know how much I get paid for doing this? Nothing. And I'm pretty sure you don't know how much aggravation and time board members have to put in every single day/week/month dealing with owner complaints, rules violations, emergencies, etc--all of which we rarely get thanked for and more often get called names for.
When something goes wrong--like with a large assessment--everyone wants to blame the board. When everything is going right, no one even remembers the board exists, much less bothers to volunteer to help out. Kindly keep that in mind before you start slinging mud all over the place.
Honestly, not making much of a case for needing an HOA in the first place. Let people solve their own damn disputes, or let them learn to be big boys and girls and not worry about what everyone else does with their own fucking property. Most of the rules violations I've heard about are things like "so and so has unauthorized colors on their curtains" or "so and so has a plant that died on their front porch and didn't remove it within 72 hours" or "so and so stored some lawn chairs on their patio instead of on the garage" and that sort of busybody horseshit.
LOL...well without an HOA, my neighborhood of high density housing would turn sour real fast with people parking all over their yards and common properties, blocking people's driveways and also parking in other peoples' driveways!
Chris, I understand your sentiment (even though those examples you provided would not be dealt with at all by my HOA). Most people are decent enough to not eff everything up but the minority in most big neighborhoods ruin it for the majority. And then those people ruining it make otherwise sane people question why they don't also just say eff it.
Also all these new developments, near me at least, are HOAs because the city doesn't want to support huge water or street infrastructure projects.
The reason I live in an HOA currently is because I wanted my building and yard to be cared for while I travel, have access to amenities, and to make sure I don't live next to people that completely ruin house values (lived next to people like that a couple times - luckily I was renting before). I too am on an HOA board because I want to make sure things are done properly. Fortunately we get a lot more thank you's than we do negative comments, the negative ones are just a lot more vocal so certain situations seem worse than they actually are.
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HOAs are evil personified in (almost always inept and power hungry) board members.
Speaking as someone who is the president (and treasurer) of the board for my HOA (and yes, we're condos), I find that both ignorant and offensive. You want to know why I'm president (and treasurer)? Because literally NO ONE ELSE wanted the job. You know how much I get paid for doing this? Nothing. And I'm pretty sure you don't know how much aggravation and time board members have to put in every single day/week/month dealing with owner complaints, rules violations, emergencies, etc--all of which we rarely get thanked for and more often get called names for.
When something goes wrong--like with a large assessment--everyone wants to blame the board. When everything is going right, no one even remembers the board exists, much less bothers to volunteer to help out. Kindly keep that in mind before you start slinging mud all over the place.
Honestly, not making much of a case for needing an HOA in the first place. Let people solve their own damn disputes, or let them learn to be big boys and girls and not worry about what everyone else does with their own fucking property. Most of the rules violations I've heard about are things like "so and so has unauthorized colors on their curtains" or "so and so has a plant that died on their front porch and didn't remove it within 72 hours" or "so and so stored some lawn chairs on their patio instead of on the garage" and that sort of busybody horseshit.
LOL...well without an HOA, my neighborhood of high density housing would turn sour real fast with people parking all over their yards and common properties, blocking people's driveways and also parking in other peoples' driveways!
Chris, I understand your sentiment (even though those examples you provided would not be dealt with at all by my HOA). Most people are decent enough to not eff everything up but the minority in most big neighborhoods ruin it for the majority. And then those people ruining it make otherwise sane people question why they don't also just say eff it.
Also all these new developments, near me at least, are HOAs because the city doesn't want to support huge water or street infrastructure projects.
The reason I live in an HOA currently is because I wanted my building and yard to be cared for while I travel, have access to amenities, and to make sure I don't live next to people that completely ruin house values (lived next to people like that a couple times - luckily I was renting before). I too am on an HOA board because I want to make sure things are done properly. Fortunately we get a lot more thank you's than we do negative comments, the negative ones are just a lot more vocal so certain situations seem worse than they actually are.
You know it's funny, I always hear that reason, but the only HOA I've ever lived in was a condo I rented, and one reason the property values of those condos was absolutely destroyed (my landlord was trying to sell the one I rented for $340k, it eventually sold for low $200ks) was because of the absolutely insane HOA fees that the condos had to pay. Like $600+ a unit. It was crazy.
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HOAs are evil personified in (almost always inept and power hungry) board members.
Speaking as someone who is the president (and treasurer) of the board for my HOA (and yes, we're condos), I find that both ignorant and offensive. You want to know why I'm president (and treasurer)? Because literally NO ONE ELSE wanted the job. You know how much I get paid for doing this? Nothing. And I'm pretty sure you don't know how much aggravation and time board members have to put in every single day/week/month dealing with owner complaints, rules violations, emergencies, etc--all of which we rarely get thanked for and more often get called names for.
When something goes wrong--like with a large assessment--everyone wants to blame the board. When everything is going right, no one even remembers the board exists, much less bothers to volunteer to help out. Kindly keep that in mind before you start slinging mud all over the place.
Honestly, not making much of a case for needing an HOA in the first place. Let people solve their own damn disputes, or let them learn to be big boys and girls and not worry about what everyone else does with their own fucking property. Most of the rules violations I've heard about are things like "so and so has unauthorized colors on their curtains" or "so and so has a plant that died on their front porch and didn't remove it within 72 hours" or "so and so stored some lawn chairs on their patio instead of on the garage" and that sort of busybody horseshit.
LOL...well without an HOA, my neighborhood of high density housing would turn sour real fast with people parking all over their yards and common properties, blocking people's driveways and also parking in other peoples' driveways!
Chris, I understand your sentiment (even though those examples you provided would not be dealt with at all by my HOA). Most people are decent enough to not eff everything up but the minority in most big neighborhoods ruin it for the majority. And then those people ruining it make otherwise sane people question why they don't also just say eff it.
Also all these new developments, near me at least, are HOAs because the city doesn't want to support huge water or street infrastructure projects.
The reason I live in an HOA currently is because I wanted my building and yard to be cared for while I travel, have access to amenities, and to make sure I don't live next to people that completely ruin house values (lived next to people like that a couple times - luckily I was renting before). I too am on an HOA board because I want to make sure things are done properly. Fortunately we get a lot more thank you's than we do negative comments, the negative ones are just a lot more vocal so certain situations seem worse than they actually are.
You know it's funny, I always hear that reason, but the only HOA I've ever lived in was a condo I rented, and one reason the property values of those condos was absolutely destroyed (my landlord was trying to sell the one I rented for $340k, it eventually sold for low $200ks) was because of the absolutely insane HOA fees that the condos had to pay. Like $600+ a unit. It was crazy.
yikes! and that is why I am also on the board! haha. Ours are close to 200. 600? Man I'd love to see how that breaks down just to make sure there is no foreshadowing over here.
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When i was looking at tiny two-bedroom or one + study places in
HOAs are evil personified in (almost always inept and power hungry) board members.
Speaking as someone who is the president (and treasurer) of the board for my HOA (and yes, we're condos), I find that both ignorant and offensive. You want to know why I'm president (and treasurer)? Because literally NO ONE ELSE wanted the job. You know how much I get paid for doing this? Nothing. And I'm pretty sure you don't know how much aggravation and time board members have to put in every single day/week/month dealing with owner complaints, rules violations, emergencies, etc--all of which we rarely get thanked for and more often get called names for.
When something goes wrong--like with a large assessment--everyone wants to blame the board. When everything is going right, no one even remembers the board exists, much less bothers to volunteer to help out. Kindly keep that in mind before you start slinging mud all over the place.
Honestly, not making much of a case for needing an HOA in the first place. Let people solve their own damn disputes, or let them learn to be big boys and girls and not worry about what everyone else does with their own fucking property. Most of the rules violations I've heard about are things like "so and so has unauthorized colors on their curtains" or "so and so has a plant that died on their front porch and didn't remove it within 72 hours" or "so and so stored some lawn chairs on their patio instead of on the garage" and that sort of busybody horseshit.
LOL...well without an HOA, my neighborhood of high density housing would turn sour real fast with people parking all over their yards and common properties, blocking people's driveways and also parking in other peoples' driveways!
Chris, I understand your sentiment (even though those examples you provided would not be dealt with at all by my HOA). Most people are decent enough to not eff everything up but the minority in most big neighborhoods ruin it for the majority. And then those people ruining it make otherwise sane people question why they don't also just say eff it.
Also all these new developments, near me at least, are HOAs because the city doesn't want to support huge water or street infrastructure projects.
The reason I live in an HOA currently is because I wanted my building and yard to be cared for while I travel, have access to amenities, and to make sure I don't live next to people that completely ruin house values (lived next to people like that a couple times - luckily I was renting before). I too am on an HOA board because I want to make sure things are done properly. Fortunately we get a lot more thank you's than we do negative comments, the negative ones are just a lot more vocal so certain situations seem worse than they actually are.
You know it's funny, I always hear that reason, but the only HOA I've ever lived in was a condo I rented, and one reason the property values of those condos was absolutely destroyed (my landlord was trying to sell the one I rented for $340k, it eventually sold for low $200ks) was because of the absolutely insane HOA fees that the condos had to pay. Like $600+ a unit. It was crazy.
yikes! and that is why I am also on the board! haha. Ours are close to 200. 600? Man I'd love to see how that breaks down just to make sure there is no foreshadowing over here.
maHOAs are evil personified in (almost always inept and power hungry) board members.
Speaking as someone who is the president (and treasurer) of the board for my HOA (and yes, we're condos), I find that both ignorant and offensive. You want to know why I'm president (and treasurer)? Because literally NO ONE ELSE wanted the job. You know how much I get paid for doing this? Nothing. And I'm pretty sure you don't know how much aggravation and time board members have to put in every single day/week/month dealing with owner complaints, rules violations, emergencies, etc--all of which we rarely get thanked for and more often get called names for.
When something goes wrong--like with a large assessment--everyone wants to blame the board. When everything is going right, no one even remembers the board exists, much less bothers to volunteer to help out. Kindly keep that in mind before you start slinging mud all over the place.
Honestly, not making much of a case for needing an HOA in the first place. Let people solve their own damn disputes, or let them learn to be big boys and girls and not worry about what everyone else does with their own fucking property. Most of the rules violations I've heard about are things like "so and so has unauthorized colors on their curtains" or "so and so has a plant that died on their front porch and didn't remove it within 72 hours" or "so and so stored some lawn chairs on their patio instead of on the garage" and that sort of busybody horseshit.
LOL...well without an HOA, my neighborhood of high density housing would turn sour real fast with people parking all over their yards and common properties, blocking people's driveways and also parking in other peoples' driveways!
Chris, I understand your sentiment (even though those examples you provided would not be dealt with at all by my HOA). Most people are decent enough to not eff everything up but the minority in most big neighborhoods ruin it for the majority. And then those people ruining it make otherwise sane people question why they don't also just say eff it.
Also all these new developments, near me at least, are HOAs because the city doesn't want to support huge water or street infrastructure projects.
The reason I live in an HOA currently is because I wanted my building and yard to be cared for while I travel, have access to amenities, and to make sure I don't live next to people that completely ruin house values (lived next to people like that a couple times - luckily I was renting before). I too am on an HOA board because I want to make sure things are done properly. Fortunately we get a lot more thank you's than we do negative comments, the negative ones are just a lot more vocal so certain situations seem worse than they actually are.
You know it's funny, I always hear that reason, but the only HOA I've ever lived in was a condo I rented, and one reason the property values of those condos was absolutely destroyed (my landlord was trying to sell the one I rented for $340k, it eventually sold for low $200ks) was because of the absolutely insane HOA fees that the condos had to pay. Like $600+ a unit. It was crazy.
yikes! and that is why I am also on the board! haha. Ours are close to 200. 600? Man I'd love to see how that breaks down just to make sure there is no foreshadowing over here.
When I was looking at tiny two-bedroom or one + study options in Manhattan, anything under ~1000 was considered a good deal, haha.
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Why do people always refer to HOAs as THEY.
My last place had an HOA. It was okay.. how did I make sure it was OK? I was on the board. Used my MMM knowledge as treasurer, and generally kept things above board.
Don't just be a member and hate it, join the leadership and see the other side of the problem ;)
I love this statement. I also have been on both sides of the story as a resident and board member for a large HOA at an apartment complex a while back.
The HOA board is usually comprised of volunteers who don't get paid and can put in a lot of hours. The stereotypical power-hungry board member is the exception, rather than the rule. Most Board members are just trying to make their communities better. If you don't like something, step up and volunteer or run for the board or a committee. The better boards have very active directors who put aside proper reserves and plan for the unexpected. And yes, there is no "they", every homeowner is the HOA.
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I am the secretary for our HOA. Due to people in the past deliberately keeping the dues low we have had to jump the fees for us to be able to maintain basic bills and cover a huge insurance change and put enough money aside so that we can have some money for when we need to replace the siding, windows, doors and back decks in the future. Just costing things out for us the pricing is in the ballpark of $700K - $1MM. We are not huge but we have 5 buildings and 28 units. When I first moved in my dues were only $180/month right now they are $405.57 but that has taken about 10 years with me being on the board for the last 8.
I don't get paid and sometimes I just have to shake my head on the way people think. But we keep raising the dues so that we won't have a HUGE assessment when things get down to the nitty gritty. I would say that 75% of our homeowners would be able to come up with $ 7-10K fairly easily but they would have a hell of a time coming up with $ 20K+.
Of course I could be completely wrong about that. But I really don't think I'm off by much.
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I am the secretary for our HOA. Due to people in the past deliberately keeping the dues low we have had to jump the fees for us to be able to maintain basic bills and cover a huge insurance change and put enough money aside so that we can have some money for when we need to replace the siding, windows, doors and back decks in the future. Just costing things out for us the pricing is in the ballpark of $700K - $1MM. We are not huge but we have 5 buildings and 28 units. When I first moved in my dues were only $180/month right now they are $405.57 but that has taken about 10 years with me being on the board for the last 8.
I don't get paid and sometimes I just have to shake my head on the way people think. But we keep raising the dues so that we won't have a HUGE assessment when things get down to the nitty gritty. I would say that 75% of our homeowners would be able to come up with $ 7-10K fairly easily but they would have a hell of a time coming up with $ 20K+.
Of course I could be completely wrong about that. But I really don't think I'm off by much.
I think people in condo/co-op buildings sometimes don't understand the basics of ownership. At our last annual meeting, a couple people (we have 12 units) kept asking when we would be "done" paying for things. When you own property (especially a 100+ year old building in Manhattan), you're never done. The condo association is not charging you dues to mess with you. This is the reality of ownership.
I think condo HOAs are different than suburban "you can't paint your door that color green" type HOAs.
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Downtown Chicago highrise: two 54-year-old buildings comprising 80 floors of units. ~$600 HOA for a 1BR. It's a necessary evil in a building like this. It pays for:
- the (minimal) landscaping
- elevator inspection and maintenance
- common area cleanliness and maintenance
- smoke alarm/emergency equipment inspection and maintenance
- security
- doormen
- balcony inspection and maintenance
- roof inspection and maintenance
- replacement of hot water heaters that periodically explode and leak down 6+ floors (mine was one such, and I've gotten leaky water from above twice now--also they're installed behind several feet of solid concrete so just getting TO them is a daylong project)
- basic plumbing and electrical repairs (which is SUPER nice when you need it)
- laundry room maintenance
- gym maintenance
- conference/community room maintenance
- concrete inspection and maintenance
- insurance
That said, the longstanding tyrannical condo board (who held their seats through shady voting practices--thanks Chicago) a few years ago squandered a TON of money on pointless boondoggles. Like huge legal fees when they tried to evict a woman because it's against the HOA rules to have dogs, and she had the absolute gall to need a service dog (yes, really). Or "model units" to show off because... reasons? Or the complete remodel of the lobbies of both buildings that cost nearly $1 million, ended up being several $100,000s over budget, was designed (extremely poorly) by "some guy" the HOA president knew, did not follow any sort of proper bid process for labor and materials, forced the doormen to sit in an unheated hallway in the middle of winter, was finished months behind schedule, and in the end was extremely ugly. The "special assessments" were 5 digits.
I don't know if there was any legal action, but in the end there was a completely new board and the property manager and assistant property manager had both been fired. The new board has been FANTASTIC and it's a shame the old board was able to stay in power that long.
I'm a renter, so I neither pay assessments nor have any say in the matter. But I'm looking into buying a unit here in the future, so I've been watching the goings-on very closely.
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Sounds like time to sell it and move to a home with no HOA. If you like HOA then just pay whatever they demand as they can and will make your life miserable. I guess some people must like having a HOA you pay to harass you and threaten you if you do anything with your property they don't like. Cut losses and move on, manage your own maintenance and risk.
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For SFHs, right there with you, only reason I can see for an HOA is to support common amenities like a neighborhood pool. But just a group of people who exist to make rules on what you can do on your property? Agreed, it's stupid and I'd never buy into one.
I thought the reason was to keep %ETHNIC% group out and so keep property values high ?
Ironically here in Vancouver the racists want to keep %ETHNIC% out because they are increase property prices.
It's not about ethnicity it's about a sizeable portion of the city being owned by foreign interests and driving the price up for the Citizens.
Perhaps we could Exclude them by way of some Act, as it were.
Had me rollin'.
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HOAs are evil personified in (almost always inept and power hungry) board members.
Speaking as someone who is the president (and treasurer) of the board for my HOA (and yes, we're condos), I find that both ignorant and offensive. You want to know why I'm president (and treasurer)? Because literally NO ONE ELSE wanted the job. You know how much I get paid for doing this? Nothing. And I'm pretty sure you don't know how much aggravation and time board members have to put in every single day/week/month dealing with owner complaints, rules violations, emergencies, etc--all of which we rarely get thanked for and more often get called names for.
When something goes wrong--like with a large assessment--everyone wants to blame the board. When everything is going right, no one even remembers the board exists, much less bothers to volunteer to help out. Kindly keep that in mind before you start slinging mud all over the place.
I stand by my statement, but I am speaking only of SFH HOAs which serve no other purpose than to give "meaning" to the lives of miserably worthless people who have nothing better to do then prop up their own self worth by telling others what color they can paint their house. And for the purpose of removing "undesirables".
The only good SFH HOA is a defunct HOA. And, the best solution to "nobody wanting to be on the board" is to dissolve the HOA and return sovereignty over solely owned property to owners.
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LOL...well without an HOA, my neighborhood of high density housing would turn sour real fast with people parking all over their yards and common properties, blocking people's driveways and also parking in other peoples' driveways!
Those things are things that should be (and typically ARE) covered by city statute.
Chris, I understand your sentiment (even though those examples you provided would not be dealt with at all by my HOA). Most people are decent enough to not eff everything up but the minority in most big neighborhoods ruin it for the majority. And then those people ruining it make otherwise sane people question why they don't also just say eff it.
Also all these new developments, near me at least, are HOAs because the city doesn't want to support huge water or street infrastructure projects.
This is the crux of the problem: Municipalities not doing their job and forcing people to live under an HOA. All the arguments about HOAs being a "choice" are undone by that. In my city (200k people) it's a "choice" of
1.) A newish (30 years or less) property on the perimeter of the city for a relatively affordable price (100-300k). All these have HOAs as mandated by the city.
2.) A 30+ year old, house near the city center for an outlandish price (I've seen 1,000 sq ft houses built in the 50s that need to be, at the very least, completely gutted, sell for 7 figures).
That's not actually a choice.
The reason I live in an HOA currently is because I wanted my building and yard to be cared for while I travel, have access to amenities, and to make sure I don't live next to people that completely ruin house values (lived next to people like that a couple times - luckily I was renting before). I too am on an HOA board because I want to make sure things are done properly. Fortunately we get a lot more thank you's than we do negative comments, the negative ones are just a lot more vocal so certain situations seem worse than they actually are.
Philosophical Question: Why do you think you have the right to tell someone what they can do with their property? Why do you think you have the right to steal someone's house from them (which is the power and HOA has!) if they don't paint their house an approved color?
Hint: The real purpose of a SFH HOA is to provide a legal means to remove "undesirables" (read: racial minorities, social minorities, religious minorities, people of the wrong social class, etc.).
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Hint: The real purpose of a SFH HOA is to provide a legal means to remove "undesirables" (read: racial minorities, social minorities, religious minorities, people of the wrong social class, etc.).
Total bs balony
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Hint: The real purpose of a SFH HOA is to provide a legal means to remove "undesirables" (read: racial minorities, social minorities, religious minorities, people of the wrong social class, etc.).
Source please.
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Hint: The real purpose of a SFH HOA is to provide a legal means to remove "undesirables" (read: racial minorities, social minorities, religious minorities, people of the wrong social class, etc.).
Total bs balony
Source please.
The racist origin of HOAs really isn't a secret. You just may not know because white heterosexual Christians typically aren't comfortable talking about it.
Early covenants and deed restrictions were exclusionary in origin, and in the first half of the 20th century many were racially motivated.[4] For example, a racial covenant in a Seattle, Washington neighborhood stated, "No part of said property hereby conveyed shall ever be used or occupied by any Hebrew or by any person of the Ethiopian, Malay or any Asiatic race."[5] In 1948, the United States Supreme Court ruled such covenants unenforceable, in Shelley v. Kraemer. However, private contracts effectively kept them alive until the Fair Housing Act of 1968 prohibited such discrimination. Some[who?] argue that they still have the effect of discriminating by requiring approval of tenants and new owners.
The popular use of racial restrictive covenants emerged in 1917, when the U.S. Supreme Court deemed city segregation ordinances illegal. In Buchanan v. Warley, the court ruled that outright segregation ordinances violated the Fourteenth Amendment. In the aftermath of this ruling, segregationists turned to restrictive neighborhood covenants and a decade later, the Supreme Court affirmed their legality. The 1926 ruling in Corrigan v. Buckley stated that while states are barred from creating race-based legislation, private deeds and developer plat maps are not similarly affected by the Fourteenth Amendment. This is because individuals entering into covenant agreements are doing so of their own volition, whereas segregation ordinances were forced upon populations from the state and municipal levels. Racial restrictive covenants consequently superseded segregation ordinances as instruments to promote and establish residential segregation among races in U.S. cities.[5]
The National Housing Act of 1934 also played a part in popularizing these covenants. Passed during the Great Depression to protect affordable housing, the Housing Act introduced the practice of “redlining,” or drawing lines on city maps delineating the ideal geographic areas for bank investment and the sale of mortgages. Areas blocked off by redlining were considered risky for mortgage support and lenders were discouraged from financing property in those areas. This legislation was intended to ensure that banks would not over-extend themselves financially by exceeding their loan reserves, but it resulted in intensified racial segregation.
The Housing Act encouraged land developers, realtors and community residents to write racial restrictive covenants to keep neighborhoods from being redlined. This trend can be seen on the red-lined “residential security maps,” which essentially divided cities according to their racial demographics in order to determine the economic desirability of certain neighborhoods.[6] This practice provided a financial justification for racial restrictive covenants and allowed for their popular use. On top of this, redlining made it exceedingly more difficult for non-Whites to purchase property because financing was refused in the only neighborhoods they were able to live.
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LOL...well without an HOA, my neighborhood of high density housing would turn sour real fast with people parking all over their yards and common properties, blocking people's driveways and also parking in other peoples' driveways!
Those things are things that should be (and typically ARE) covered by city statute.
Chris, I understand your sentiment (even though those examples you provided would not be dealt with at all by my HOA). Most people are decent enough to not eff everything up but the minority in most big neighborhoods ruin it for the majority. And then those people ruining it make otherwise sane people question why they don't also just say eff it.
Also all these new developments, near me at least, are HOAs because the city doesn't want to support huge water or street infrastructure projects.
This is the crux of the problem: Municipalities not doing their job and forcing people to live under an HOA. All the arguments about HOAs being a "choice" are undone by that. In my city (200k people) it's a "choice" of
1.) A newish (30 years or less) property on the perimeter of the city for a relatively affordable price (100-300k). All these have HOAs as mandated by the city.
2.) A 30+ year old, house near the city center for an outlandish price (I've seen 1,000 sq ft houses built in the 50s that need to be, at the very least, completely gutted, sell for 7 figures).
That's not actually a choice.
The reason I live in an HOA currently is because I wanted my building and yard to be cared for while I travel, have access to amenities, and to make sure I don't live next to people that completely ruin house values (lived next to people like that a couple times - luckily I was renting before). I too am on an HOA board because I want to make sure things are done properly. Fortunately we get a lot more thank you's than we do negative comments, the negative ones are just a lot more vocal so certain situations seem worse than they actually are.
Philosophical Question: Why do you think you have the right to tell someone what they can do with their property? Why do you think you have the right to steal someone's house from them (which is the power and HOA has!) if they don't paint their house an approved color?
Hint: The real purpose of a SFH HOA is to provide a legal means to remove "undesirables" (read: racial minorities, social minorities, religious minorities, people of the wrong social class, etc.).
I am only responding to the "why do I have a right to tell someone what to do with their property"...1) because it is not me personally, it is the rules of the HOA that are to be enforced by the people they elect and 2) because they signed a contract saying that is what they would do with the property. Don't sign something you know you will break. I think a lot of people get miffed though because they didn't read their documents at signing time and just hoped they would get what they want?
I do think that the argument of the city needing to build some community infrastructure, and not leave it all on private companies (which make it super expensive), to be valid.
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Throwing another reason for SFH HOA out there:
We live in a neighborhood worked around canyons and hills, in a region susceptible to wild fires. The HOA is responsible for maintaining defensible space between the individual lots. That's a perfectly valid reason I'm willing to pay HOA fees for, even though we much preferred non-HOA properties when we were looking to buy. We did make sure to read the CC&R prior to purchasing, and making sure there isn't anything we're unwilling to follow.
One might argue that would be city responsibility if the HOA doesn't exist. While true, considering the city's backlog on infrastructure and maintenance in general, I highly doubt the city would do it to a satisfactory level.
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The reason I live in an HOA currently is because I wanted my building and yard to be cared for while I travel, have access to amenities, and to make sure I don't live next to people that completely ruin house values (lived next to people like that a couple times - luckily I was renting before). I too am on an HOA board because I want to make sure things are done properly. Fortunately we get a lot more thank you's than we do negative comments, the negative ones are just a lot more vocal so certain situations seem worse than they actually are.
Philosophical Question: Why do you think you have the right to tell someone what they can do with their property? Why do you think you have the right to steal someone's house from them (which is the power and HOA has!) if they don't paint their house an approved color?
Hint: The real purpose of a SFH HOA is to provide a legal means to remove "undesirables" (read: racial minorities, social minorities, religious minorities, people of the wrong social class, etc.).
I think you're confusing HOAs with government. While I loathe HOAs it is an opt in thing, I simply choose not to purchase property inside any HOA jurisdiction. Telling others what they can do with their property and enforcing it by whatever means is all well and good if all subject to it have agreed to the terms and entered into a contract with the HOA voluntarily. There's no issue there. The problem is when those who like to tell others what they can and can't do with their own property (while not aggressing against anyone else) use government to enforce it. That is not a voluntary contract.
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It may only be nominally a free choice.
A lot of municipalities require them for new sub-developments, because they want somebody responsible for cutting the grass verge etc
The danger is that you start out with a small committee just doing the necessary shared stuff and eventually end up with some power crazed lunatic in a bad wig telling what type of grass you can grow.
... you know there might be a lesson in that somewhere ...
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Anyone who buys into an HOA without researching the health of the HOA's finances should lose their right to complain/hate about it. You are required by law to be given that information and you are charged up the ass for it in escrow, so READ IT, people!
I bought into a new development. The developer provided the HOA documents and had the majority vote for for the first two years I lived here. I was prepared to live by the rules I signed up for. I was not prepared for the crazy that occurred after some power-hungry donkey walked into office un-opposed. Thankfully, someone stepped up in the next election to neutralize him, but he did a lot of damage in the 1 year he was in office and the other board members were too meek to stop him.
Also, the finances aren't the only thing people complain about. Sometimes we find "hyper-enforcement" of rules. Our current leadership doesn't look for problems, they respond to complaints. The previous donkey researched peoples' tax records and reported them to government agencies or levied fines when he thought they weren't upholding their responsibilities. It was completely out-of-hand and I never thought I would personally know any of these crazy asshats with nothing better to do with their time than make other people miserable, but there you go. Turns out they're not as rare as I thought.
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I think you're confusing HOAs with government. While I loathe HOAs it is an opt in thing, I simply choose not to purchase property inside any HOA jurisdiction.
HOAs essentially are a (private, often-undemocratic) form of government. After all, municipalities and HOAs are both just slightly different (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipal_corporation) varieties (http://www.calassoc-hoa.com/Homeowners-Association/General-Information/HOAs-are-Corporations.aspx) of corporations. HOAs generally don't have the power to arrest criminals, but that's really about the only material difference I can think of.
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I moved into a house that has city enforced covenants, but no HOA. When we closed they presented us with paperwork that said we would agree to join and abide by any future HOA regulations. We refused to sign it. There was no way in hell I was agreeing to something I couldn't even see!
They told us it would cost us the house, but we were willing to lose the house over that. Turns out about half the neighbors signed it, half were never presented with it. We were the only people to not sign it when given it. It will be interesting to see what happens if they try to form an HOA (one neighbor really wants to so that we can put in a pool- no way!) A lot of the neighborhood is very libertarian, so there's no way they'd be joining...
The covenants are only enforced if someone calls the city.
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It will be interesting to see what happens if they try to form an HOA (one neighbor really wants to so that we can put in a pool- no way!) A lot of the neighborhood is very libertarian, so there's no way they'd be joining...
My parents bought into a very small new-build neighborhood without an HOA, then the neighborhood was greatly expanded a few years later and the new people asked my parents (and the other original residents) to join. They said "nope" and that was the end of it.
(The new part of the neighborhood has street lights and sidewalks, which there was no guarantee the were going to extend into the old section, and a separate neighborhood sign so that the new section "felt" distinct and IMO, elitist. I saw no reason to agree to pay dues until after those features were changed to unify the old and new sections, at minimum.)
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HOA's can be good. They can also be bad.
I used to caddy on a golf course that had a swanky neighborhood around it. One of the golfers lived there and was on the board. She saw someone replacing a window that had been broken by a golf ball, which was the responsibility of the homeowner and not the golfer or the club or the HOA. She made a big stink because he replaced an entire window and put in a grill rather than the individual pane (which was much more expensive). That is bad and overreaching.
My cousin lives in an HOA that consists of 4 people--it is a 4 flat in Chicago. His HOA is great! Every year they assess how much repairs and maintenance of the garden cost them the prior year. That total is then divided by 4 for their annual dues. He did have one issue when the roof had a leak, and he (on the 3rd floor) and the 4th floor neighbor were trying to get an assessment to fix it and the 2 people on the 1st and 2nd floor didn't like that. My cousin told them he could install a drain in 4th floor and his own floor, so that it just drained into the 2nd floor apartment. That fixed that right up.
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I am surprised that MMMers would live in HOA neighborhoods. We live in an older home so we can save money by doing our own chores and choosing our own materials. An HOA is not going to search around for the best price on roofing materials or whatnot, and it is going to pay big bucks for labor. When we lived in a condo, my husband was not allowed to change the oil in our vehicles or do any other routine maintenance things that save us money. We can also have a big garden and hang our laundry outside. Belonging to an HOA seems to be contradictory to being a highly frugal person.
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I think you're confusing HOAs with government. While I loathe HOAs it is an opt in thing, I simply choose not to purchase property inside any HOA jurisdiction.
HOAs essentially are a (private, often-undemocratic) form of government. After all, municipalities and HOAs are both just slightly different (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipal_corporation) varieties (http://www.calassoc-hoa.com/Homeowners-Association/General-Information/HOAs-are-Corporations.aspx) of corporations. HOAs generally don't have the power to arrest criminals, but that's really about the only material difference I can think of.
Indeed an HOA is very much like a local level of government. They set rules and will initiate force to enforce them. There is nothing wrong with that if all have entered into the contract voluntarily. There is always a way out of that contract too, sell the property within HOA jurisdiction and move elsewhere. It's a big country, there are plenty of choices to avoid a HOA.
The difference is you consent to and voluntarily enter into contract with an HOA, government is forced on you and the options to not be subject to an oppressive or overzealous government are far fewer, more difficult, and more costly. If it's just the laws in a municipality you find objectionable then it's usually easy enough to move to a neighboring town and not drastically change your life or face any large hurdles. If it's at the county, state, or federal level it becomes much more challenging and costly to avoid what you find objectionable.
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I am surprised that MMMers would live in HOA neighborhoods.
I bought here 3 months before I found MMM. Hasn't made sense to move, yet. But I'm keeping my eye on the market.
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My cousin lives in an HOA that consists of 4 people--it is a 4 flat in Chicago. His HOA is great! Every year they assess how much repairs and maintenance of the garden cost them the prior year. That total is then divided by 4 for their annual dues.
Same for my aunt and uncle. Keeps the roof and fences repaired, the stairwells clean, and the front yard pretty. I think it also stipulates parking requirements--which makes sense because their alley only has one parking spot per flat. It would be a dick move to get an extra car or a huge car and prevent somebody else from using their spot without them having any recourse. They all know each other and get along great, but it might come in handy if somebody moves out.
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I am surprised that MMMers would live in HOA neighborhoods.
I bought here 3 months before I found MMM. Hasn't made sense to move, yet. But I'm keeping my eye on the market.
Living in a neighborhood with an HOA is not always "wrong". My neighborhood is approximately 40-50 years old and we have an HOA to maintain wooded walking trails with paths to the adjoining elementary school and city greenway system, a lake area, a large grass field for games/play and for enforcement of rules related to removing trees or yes, painting your house a color which would look silly. My neighborhood is beautiful and I get quite a bit of enjoyment for the $300/year.
Condo or townhouse HOAs that must maintain buildings do scare me (a little).
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I do think that the argument of the city needing to build some community infrastructure, and not leave it all on private companies (which make it super expensive), to be valid.
This is wrong - Making everything private always makes the cost go down. Free market and the invisible hand, dontcha know? /snark.
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my brother just bought a condo, and the HOA fees (that cover building insurance and parking, but not even a gym) are more than my mortgage. and my house is twice as big, and I can do whatever I want with it.
an HOA can be good and bad. when we bought a house a few years ago, it turned out the neighbor had an ATV track in the back yard, and there was nothing we could do to complain. but here in Texas being in an non-HOA is preferred. why pay $400 a month for some lawn work and a brick wall around the neighborhood?
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My cousin lives in an HOA that consists of 4 people--it is a 4 flat in Chicago. His HOA is great! Every year they assess how much repairs and maintenance of the garden cost them the prior year. That total is then divided by 4 for their annual dues.
Same for my aunt and uncle. Keeps the roof and fences repaired, the stairwells clean, and the front yard pretty. I think it also stipulates parking requirements--which makes sense because their alley only has one parking spot per flat. It would be a dick move to get an extra car or a huge car and prevent somebody else from using their spot without them having any recourse. They all know each other and get along great, but it might come in handy if somebody moves out.
Not a concern, his place has deeded parking. Actually, most places in [this area of] Chicago do IF they have parking.