Kill your lawn

[GilesMM]

Weed burners will kill full grown weeds. We have a gravel driveway and used one to “reclaim” the edges, where weeds had grown in and matured over several years.

As for canisters, just use a standard refillable propane tank. I use the same one we use on our propane grill.

I have one and it sort of works.  It is fine for, say, dry thin grass.  But for larger, robust green weeds it is a lot of work and emissions.  The burner won't touch the deep root of a dandelion.  I had high hopes can't quite keep up with my gravel pad weeds.

[Morning Glory]

Weed burners will kill full grown weeds. We have a gravel driveway and used one to “reclaim” the edges, where weeds had grown in and matured over several years.

As for canisters, just use a standard refillable propane tank. I use the same one we use on our propane grill.

I have one and it sort of works.  It is fine for, say, dry thin grass.  But for larger, robust green weeds it is a lot of work and emissions.  The burner won't touch the deep root of a dandelion.  I had high hopes can't quite keep up with my gravel pad weeds.

I had a cheap harbor freight one that i found relatively useless on the garlic mustard but it was growing in a shady area on the edge of wetland so never got dry enough.  Perhaps more expensive ones are better. I would not use one where I live now for fear of causing a wildfire.

AFAIK dandelions are not considered invasive weeds because they pose no threat to native species.

[Metalcat]

Weed burners will kill full grown weeds. We have a gravel driveway and used one to “reclaim” the edges, where weeds had grown in and matured over several years.

As for canisters, just use a standard refillable propane tank. I use the same one we use on our propane grill.

I have one and it sort of works.  It is fine for, say, dry thin grass.  But for larger, robust green weeds it is a lot of work and emissions.  The burner won't touch the deep root of a dandelion.  I had high hopes can't quite keep up with my gravel pad weeds.

Good to know. My stinging nettles apparently have super deep weeds, so if this doesn't work for dandelions, I won't bother trying with nettles.

I'm following though because I have a gravel driveway that is being taken over by giant dandelions and nettles. I'm starting to think I'll need to pave it if I want to keep them from swallowing it.

[Metalcat]

I was in Gros Morne last week and thinking about this thread. The lawns out there, if left un-mowed look like something prehistoric. Every patch of grass that was untended was taken over by towering 6-10ft giant hog weed plants, which can apparently burn like wild parsnip.

Suddenly my 4ft tall nettles don't seem so bad.

[nereo]

Weed burners will kill full grown weeds. We have a gravel driveway and used one to “reclaim” the edges, where weeds had grown in and matured over several years.

As for canisters, just use a standard refillable propane tank. I use the same one we use on our propane grill.

I have one and it sort of works.  It is fine for, say, dry thin grass.  But for larger, robust green weeds it is a lot of work and emissions.  The burner won't touch the deep root of a dandelion.  I had high hopes can't quite keep up with my gravel pad weeds.

I suspect yours isn’t functioning properly. A weed burner shouldn’t have any problem killing dandelion tap roots. Your flame likely isn’t getting hot enough, which happens.

[GilesMM]

Weed burners will kill full grown weeds. We have a gravel driveway and used one to “reclaim” the edges, where weeds had grown in and matured over several years.

As for canisters, just use a standard refillable propane tank. I use the same one we use on our propane grill.

I have one and it sort of works.  It is fine for, say, dry thin grass.  But for larger, robust green weeds it is a lot of work and emissions.  The burner won't touch the deep root of a dandelion.  I had high hopes can't quite keep up with my gravel pad weeds.

I suspect yours isn’t functioning properly. A weed burner shouldn’t have any problem killing dandelion tap roots. Your flame likely isn’t getting hot enough, which happens.

It works great and will "ashify" large weeds.  The problem is perennials with tap roots, like dandelions, don't die.  They will grow back. It is actually about as fast for me to yank them out with a weeding tool and then they are gone for good.

[nereo]

Weed burners will kill full grown weeds. We have a gravel driveway and used one to “reclaim” the edges, where weeds had grown in and matured over several years.

As for canisters, just use a standard refillable propane tank. I use the same one we use on our propane grill.

I have one and it sort of works.  It is fine for, say, dry thin grass.  But for larger, robust green weeds it is a lot of work and emissions.  The burner won't touch the deep root of a dandelion.  I had high hopes can't quite keep up with my gravel pad weeds.

I suspect yours isn’t functioning properly. A weed burner shouldn’t have any problem killing dandelion tap roots. Your flame likely isn’t getting hot enough, which happens.

It works great and will "ashify" large weeds.  The problem is perennials with tap roots, like dandelions, don't die.  They will grow back. It is actually about as fast for me to yank them out with a weeding tool and then they are gone for good.

Read more critically.  If you aren't killing the tap root with a weed burner, there is something wrong with your system or your technique, or both. As I and several others have emphatically stated, they will kill the entire dandelion plant, tap root and all.

No question that you can also irradiate individual plants by yanking them out.  Whether it is 'as fast' will depend on your setup.  For an area under 100sqft with a relatively light number of weeds I'd certainly just yank and pull - not worth it to drag the equipment out and then put it away.  For a much larger area like a long gravel driveway I've found it to be much faster and more thorough (as you can simultaneously kill large weeds as well as destroy newly sprouted seeds in one quick swoop.

[RetiredAt63]

Weed burners will kill full grown weeds. We have a gravel driveway and used one to “reclaim” the edges, where weeds had grown in and matured over several years.

As for canisters, just use a standard refillable propane tank. I use the same one we use on our propane grill.

I have one and it sort of works.  It is fine for, say, dry thin grass.  But for larger, robust green weeds it is a lot of work and emissions.  The burner won't touch the deep root of a dandelion.  I had high hopes can't quite keep up with my gravel pad weeds.

I suspect yours isn’t functioning properly. A weed burner shouldn’t have any problem killing dandelion tap roots. Your flame likely isn’t getting hot enough, which happens.

It works great and will "ashify" large weeds.  The problem is perennials with tap roots, like dandelions, don't die.  They will grow back. It is actually about as fast for me to yank them out with a weeding tool and then they are gone for good.

Well rooted perennials don't always die from being weeded, either.  They will come back from the bits of roots left behind.  So it is just a fact of life that some weeds may need more than one treatment.

[monarda]

Have you weed burning folks had success eradicating the evil creeping bellflower? That I'd like to wipe out. It's taking over.

Any models to recommend?

I'm eyeing the $50 Flame King at Home Depot...

And nereo, I'm sending you a PM. I think I'll be in your neighborhood soon.

[tygertygertyger]

Have you weed burning folks had success eradicating the evil creeping bellflower? That I'd like to wipe out. It's taking over.

Any models to recommend?

I'm eyeing the $50 Flame King at Home Depot...

And nereo, I'm sending you a PM. I think I'll be in your neighborhood soon.

Ooooo, following to hear this answer. I've been battling the creeping bellflower myself.

[RetiredAt63]

You can't have creeping Charlie if you are worrying about a bellflower.    ;-)

[tygertygertyger]

Ah, we have a million invasives in our yard that we battle! I thought the nice purple bellflowers were pretty, until I learned this year that I should add them to the long list.

Though, admittedly, I worry about creeping bellflower less than I do the oriental bittersweet and the other vine whose name I can't remember... both of those were thundering straight up our trees before we did a major advance on them. Now they're reassembling their troops...

[401Killer]

Maintaining them takes gas-guzzling mowers, toxic pesticides, regular application of fertilizer that contaminates rivers and streams, and huge amounts of water

None of this is factual or required.

[Just Joe]

Weed burners will kill full grown weeds. We have a gravel driveway and used one to “reclaim” the edges, where weeds had grown in and matured over several years.

As for canisters, just use a standard refillable propane tank. I use the same one we use on our propane grill.

Be careful around your shrubs. I did not get the heat directly on them but the lower leaves died all the same. Waiting to see if they come back. Otherwise great tool. HF has them. $40 for the fancy one.

I put the propane canister on my electric lawn tractor and drive it around. You can carry it too or sit the tank on a furniture mover if the surface is hard like a sidewalk. A kids' wagon would be good too.

[GodlessCommie]

Maintaining them takes gas-guzzling mowers, toxic pesticides, regular application of fertilizer that contaminates rivers and streams, and huge amounts of water

None of this is factual or required.

That's what I learned, too.

Huge respect to people who cultivate native plants or grow veggies - we do both to some extent. But lawn can be pretty low maintenance; and while they will never be as ecologically useful as native plants, they don't have to have a huge environmental cost, either.

All you have to do is to sufficiently lower your standards. Let it go dormant (brown) when it's hot, tolerate crabgrass, dandelions and whatever else decides to take root. Mulch, don't bag clippings. Mow rarely. You may not be popular with the Johnsons of your street, though.

[nereo]

All you have to do is to sufficiently lower your standards.

New favorite quote.

[Metalcat]

Maintaining them takes gas-guzzling mowers, toxic pesticides, regular application of fertilizer that contaminates rivers and streams, and huge amounts of water

None of this is factual or required.

That's what I learned, too.

Huge respect to people who cultivate native plants or grow veggies - we do both to some extent. But lawn can be pretty low maintenance; and while they will never be as ecologically useful as native plants, they don't have to have a huge environmental cost, either.

All you have to do is to sufficiently lower your standards. Let it go dormant (brown) when it's hot, tolerate crabgrass, dandelions and whatever else decides to take root. Mulch, don't bag clippings. Mow rarely. You may not be popular with the Johnsons of your street, though.

I'm still fascinated that this isn't just the norm. It's always been the norm everywhere I've lived.

Who bags clippings?? Is that a thing normal people really do on a regular basis? Why?

I feel like I just found out that the majority of the world uses unicycles and I'm the weirdo who rides a bike.

[Kris]

Maintaining them takes gas-guzzling mowers, toxic pesticides, regular application of fertilizer that contaminates rivers and streams, and huge amounts of water

None of this is factual or required.

That's what I learned, too.

Huge respect to people who cultivate native plants or grow veggies - we do both to some extent. But lawn can be pretty low maintenance; and while they will never be as ecologically useful as native plants, they don't have to have a huge environmental cost, either.

All you have to do is to sufficiently lower your standards. Let it go dormant (brown) when it's hot, tolerate crabgrass, dandelions and whatever else decides to take root. Mulch, don't bag clippings. Mow rarely. You may not be popular with the Johnsons of your street, though.

I'm still fascinated that this isn't just the norm. It's always been the norm everywhere I've lived.

Who bags clippings?? Is that a thing normal people really do on a regular basis? Why?

I feel like I just found out that the majority of the world uses unicycles and I'm the weirdo who rides a bike.

It’s not the rest of the world. It’s just the US, which is a deeply weird country.

[Metalcat]

Maintaining them takes gas-guzzling mowers, toxic pesticides, regular application of fertilizer that contaminates rivers and streams, and huge amounts of water

None of this is factual or required.

That's what I learned, too.

Huge respect to people who cultivate native plants or grow veggies - we do both to some extent. But lawn can be pretty low maintenance; and while they will never be as ecologically useful as native plants, they don't have to have a huge environmental cost, either.

All you have to do is to sufficiently lower your standards. Let it go dormant (brown) when it's hot, tolerate crabgrass, dandelions and whatever else decides to take root. Mulch, don't bag clippings. Mow rarely. You may not be popular with the Johnsons of your street, though.

I'm still fascinated that this isn't just the norm. It's always been the norm everywhere I've lived.

Who bags clippings?? Is that a thing normal people really do on a regular basis? Why?

I feel like I just found out that the majority of the world uses unicycles and I'm the weirdo who rides a bike.

It’s not the rest of the world. It’s just the US, which is a deeply weird country.

In such surprising and confusing ways...

[nereo]

There’s a great deal of myth, legend and lore about why people from the US treasure green lawns of near monocultures so much. All wrapped up together is the concept of a space  which is strictly decorative (of no use growing plants), some clever marketing by chemical companies and the desire to appear rich to absolute strangers or at least well maintained).

Objectively, the often-mandated ritual includes frequent cutting below what is healthy for both the grass and the soil, removal of the clippings which strips the soil of nutrients, requiring seasonal addition of fertilizer to replenish what was bagged away, and the liberal application of pesticides to prevent any sort of ecosystem services.

[Metalcat]

There’s a great deal of myth, legend and lore about why people from the US treasure green lawns of near monocultures so much. All wrapped up together is the concept of a space  which is strictly decorative (of no use growing plants), some clever marketing by chemical companies and the desire to appear rich to absolute strangers or at least well maintained).

Objectively, the often-mandated ritual includes frequent cutting below what is healthy for both the grass and the soil, removal of the clippings which strips the soil of nutrients, requiring seasonal addition of fertilizer to replenish what was bagged away, and the liberal application of pesticides to prevent any sort of ecosystem services.

This is fucking fascinating, and an insane example of the power of marketing to get people to commit to that. That takes some serious effort to get people to want to spend that much effort on being inefficient.

I'm gonna go search for an audiobook about the history of this, there must be one out there.

It's the bagging of clippings part that floors me most. Isn't that totally counter productive?? Who came up with that plan??

Although, thanks to clippings I currently have a lawn absolutely filled with giant slugs. I find them delightful, like a lot of things out here, they are abnormally humongous, like over 6 inches in length.

...but I can see why some folks might not delight in a lawn full of slugs...I guess...

[RetiredAt63]

History and money (of course money) - weed killers kill broad leaf plants but not grasses.  So if you want to convince people to buy your weed killers, you have to convince people that any broad leaf plants in your lawn are weeds.  Like clover.  Lawn seed mixes used to contain clover, since clover fixes nitrogen and the clippings feed the lawn.

If you get people to cut grass too short and remove the clippings then the roots will suffer and "weeds" will move in, and you can convince them to buy fertilizer, and weed killer, and at some point fungicides and insecticides.  And all the irrigation/watering equipment.  Lawns are not golf courses but somehow the expectation that they be golf courses is there.

As you can imagine, none of my lawns have looked like golf courses.      ;-)

[mspym]

*sigh* our lawn is fine as is for now - full of clover and some buttercups. But we just discovered a quarter of our slope is covered in African Boxthorn, which is just a nightmare to remove.

[middo]

*sigh* our lawn is fine as is for now - full of clover and some buttercups. But we just discovered a quarter of our slope is covered in African Boxthorn, which is just a nightmare to remove.

Boxthorn is horrible stuff.  We have 25 acres of it on the farm to be dealt with (waves hands...) later.  Goats will stop it from spreading as they eat the small ones, but larger ones really need to be pulled out by the roots.  We used to use a tow rope, wrapped around the base, and drag them out that way.  Put them in a pile and burn them.

Currently we live in a high rainfall area and have never watered, weeded or fertilised this lawn.  It gets mown occasionally when I get the chance as it is too wet most of the time.  I look forward to replacing my petrol mower with an electric one when it dies, which going on my past history won't be too long away.  I am hard on mowers.

[simonsez]

Maintaining them takes gas-guzzling mowers, toxic pesticides, regular application of fertilizer that contaminates rivers and streams, and huge amounts of water

None of this is factual or required.

That's what I learned, too.

Huge respect to people who cultivate native plants or grow veggies - we do both to some extent. But lawn can be pretty low maintenance; and while they will never be as ecologically useful as native plants, they don't have to have a huge environmental cost, either.

All you have to do is to sufficiently lower your standards. Let it go dormant (brown) when it's hot, tolerate crabgrass, dandelions and whatever else decides to take root. Mulch, don't bag clippings. Mow rarely. You may not be popular with the Johnsons of your street, though.

I'm still fascinated that this isn't just the norm. It's always been the norm everywhere I've lived.

Who bags clippings?? Is that a thing normal people really do on a regular basis? Why?

I feel like I just found out that the majority of the world uses unicycles and I'm the weirdo who rides a bike.

It’s not the rest of the world. It’s just the US, which is a deeply weird country.

Hmm, but it has to be a minority, right?  And just to be clear on the denominator, I'm only talking households that have yards.  I'd guess less than 20% dispose of their clippings.  If you have a compost pile and/or use it for mulch, I view that differently compared to a green waste bin.

My guess is that it is more of an upper class, upper middle class type activity to care about the lawn since it requires disposable income.  This forum is going to skew that way in terms of US participants being above the median hh income level.  Plus, those people are going to live next to other upper/upper middle people who treat their lawns similarly.  It creates a bubble.

Go to lower class and middle class yards.  I'm guessing they're not tended to as much on a % basis nor are the clippings bagged.  I mean, you will find lawn nuts at every income level but it has to scale somewhat with class/income level.

[ChickenStash]

In my 'hood, I don't think I've ever seen anyone bag their clippings. Same with watering, except for establishing a new lawn. Up until about a week ago when the weather turned, everyone's lawn was brownish.

We do have a few that chem-dip their lawns a couple of times a year, though. The crazy part is their grass doesn't look much better than those of us that don't. 

[La Bibliotecaria Feroz]

Hmm, but it has to be a minority, right?  And just to be clear on the denominator, I'm only talking households that have yards.  I'd guess less than 20% dispose of their clippings.  If you have a compost pile and/or use it for mulch, I view that differently compared to a green waste bin.

My guess is that it is more of an upper class, upper middle class type activity to care about the lawn since it requires disposable income.  This forum is going to skew that way in terms of US participants being above the median hh income level.  Plus, those people are going to live next to other upper/upper middle people who treat their lawns similarly.  It creates a bubble.

Go to lower class and middle class yards.  I'm guessing they're not tended to as much on a % basis nor are the clippings bagged.  I mean, you will find lawn nuts at every income level but it has to scale somewhat with class/income level.

In my neighborhood the greenest lawns belong to Latino families who seem to have lived there a long time- long-established immigrant families. From looking around, I think the houses that have been bought by middle-class white people like myself are more likely to go xeriscape or other lower-maintenance solutions. Or maybe this is a generational divide? White millennials vs people old enough to be their parents?

[GodlessCommie]

I live in what passes as relatively affordable neighborhood in the land of datacenters and Beltway bandits, and people do bag clippings. Only recently our county banned placing clippings in plastic bags. If you go one step above my neighborhood in terms of house prices, manicured lawns are a norm. It is sad, really - all the resources spent on appearances (that are not even that appealing) could do so much good.

Oh, and someone decided that every yard has to have a Bradford Pear, a Myrtle, or preferably both.

[tygertygertyger]

Oh, and someone decided that every yard has to have a Bradford Pear, a Myrtle, or preferably both.

Yeah... Bradford pears are EVERYWHERE here... included as part of city planning in many locations.

[RetiredAt63]

Hmm, but it has to be a minority, right?  And just to be clear on the denominator, I'm only talking households that have yards.  I'd guess less than 20% dispose of their clippings.  If you have a compost pile and/or use it for mulch, I view that differently compared to a green waste bin.

My guess is that it is more of an upper class, upper middle class type activity to care about the lawn since it requires disposable income.  This forum is going to skew that way in terms of US participants being above the median hh income level.  Plus, those people are going to live next to other upper/upper middle people who treat their lawns similarly.  It creates a bubble.

Go to lower class and middle class yards.  I'm guessing they're not tended to as much on a % basis nor are the clippings bagged.  I mean, you will find lawn nuts at every income level but it has to scale somewhat with class/income level.

In my neighborhood the greenest lawns belong to Latino families who seem to have lived there a long time- long-established immigrant families. From looking around, I think the houses that have been bought by middle-class white people like myself are more likely to go xeriscape or other lower-maintenance solutions. Or maybe this is a generational divide? White millennials vs people old enough to be their parents?

Given how little time my DD and her husband have to give to lawn care, or yard care in general, I am guessing a generational thing.  Plus possibly some families have more generational experience in gardening for local conditions?

Seriously, I know how to garden in a cold wet snowy climate.  Put me in Colorado or Arizona and I would be worse than a beginner, I would have incorrect knowledge.

[draco44]

There’s a great deal of myth, legend and lore about why people from the US treasure green lawns of near monocultures so much. All wrapped up together is the concept of a space  which is strictly decorative (of no use growing plants), some clever marketing by chemical companies and the desire to appear rich to absolute strangers or at least well maintained).

Objectively, the often-mandated ritual includes frequent cutting below what is healthy for both the grass and the soil, removal of the clippings which strips the soil of nutrients, requiring seasonal addition of fertilizer to replenish what was bagged away, and the liberal application of pesticides to prevent any sort of ecosystem services.

This is fucking fascinating, and an insane example of the power of marketing to get people to commit to that. That takes some serious effort to get people to want to spend that much effort on being inefficient.

I'm gonna go search for an audiobook about the history of this, there must be one out there.

It's the bagging of clippings part that floors me most. Isn't that totally counter productive?? Who came up with that plan??

Although, thanks to clippings I currently have a lawn absolutely filled with giant slugs. I find them delightful, like a lot of things out here, they are abnormally humongous, like over 6 inches in length.

...but I can see why some folks might not delight in a lawn full of slugs...I guess...

It fascinates me too! While certainly not everyone is a believer, high-maintenance lawncare is a big point of pride for at least a certain subset of Americans. There's whole episodes of the cartoon "King of the the Hill" that goes into this. In one, (https://kingofthehill.fandom.com/wiki/King_of_the_Ant_Hill), main character Hank is lawn-proud but chooses to discontinue weekly pesticide spraying by his exterminator friend, who eventually decides to sabotage Hanks' lawn with an ant infestation. Chaos ensues before everything's eventually resolved. And lawnmower pride is also a whole subculture.

[Metalcat]

It fascinates me too! While certainly not everyone is a believer, high-maintenance lawncare is a big point of pride for at least a certain subset of Americans. There's whole episodes of the cartoon "King of the the Hill" that goes into this. In one, (https://kingofthehill.fandom.com/wiki/King_of_the_Ant_Hill), main character Hank is lawn-proud but chooses to discontinue weekly pesticide spraying by his exterminator friend, who eventually decides to sabotage Hanks' lawn with an ant infestation. Chaos ensues before everything's eventually resolved. And lawnmower pride is also a whole subculture.

Lawnmower pride?? Do I want to know?

I mean, my step dad frickin' LOVES his John Deere because they live in the country on 30 acres and he's 70, so I totally get why some people absolutely love their ride mowers, but something tells me you're not talking about some kind of wholesome love between a rural senior gent and his John Deere...

[draco44]

It fascinates me too! While certainly not everyone is a believer, high-maintenance lawncare is a big point of pride for at least a certain subset of Americans. There's whole episodes of the cartoon "King of the the Hill" that goes into this. In one, (https://kingofthehill.fandom.com/wiki/King_of_the_Ant_Hill), main character Hank is lawn-proud but chooses to discontinue weekly pesticide spraying by his exterminator friend, who eventually decides to sabotage Hanks' lawn with an ant infestation. Chaos ensues before everything's eventually resolved. And lawnmower pride is also a whole subculture.

Lawnmower pride?? Do I want to know?

I mean, my step dad frickin' LOVES his John Deere because they live in the country on 30 acres and he's 70, so I totally get why some people absolutely love their ride mowers, but something tells me you're not talking about some kind of wholesome love between a rural senior gent and his John Deere...

Ha ha, lawn mowers aren't my passion in life so I hesitate to imply I know too much about the pride thing and I doubt it's exclusively an American phenomenon, but like any category of tech there's just some folks who get really into it: carefully maintaining their machines themselves, doing rebuilds of old models, running their own forums (e.g. https://www.mylawnmowerforum.com/), and having strong feelings about things like which is the best brand/model/motor size or debating stuff like whether ride-on is a necessary feature or a sign of laziness. John Deere people do have a reputation for being passionate about the brand, so your stepdad's definitely not alone in enjoying his mower.

Lawnmower racing is also a thing, but that's a bit different and I believe started in the UK.

[nereo]

It fascinates me too! While certainly not everyone is a believer, high-maintenance lawncare is a big point of pride for at least a certain subset of Americans. There's whole episodes of the cartoon "King of the the Hill" that goes into this. In one, (https://kingofthehill.fandom.com/wiki/King_of_the_Ant_Hill), main character Hank is lawn-proud but chooses to discontinue weekly pesticide spraying by his exterminator friend, who eventually decides to sabotage Hanks' lawn with an ant infestation. Chaos ensues before everything's eventually resolved. And lawnmower pride is also a whole subculture.

Lawnmower pride?? Do I want to know?

I mean, my step dad frickin' LOVES his John Deere because they live in the country on 30 acres and he's 70, so I totally get why some people absolutely love their ride mowers, but something tells me you're not talking about some kind of wholesome love between a rural senior gent and his John Deere...

Here’s a glimpse - my neighborhood would have a “lawnmower parade” each 4th of July. The participants were nearly all male, with a median age north of 50. They would spend hours decorating their  riding lawnmowers to drive them in a line down the street at a casual jogging pace. One guy gave his a custom paint job that had flames and probably took him at least three weekends and a few hundred dollars to complete. Lawnmower “skins” (essentially enormous stickers designed to fit a particular lawnmower model are also popular. So we’re battery powered Christmas lights and cup holders for beer.

Basically they spent days making their mowers less useful for the function they were built.

[ChickenStash]

It fascinates me too! While certainly not everyone is a believer, high-maintenance lawncare is a big point of pride for at least a certain subset of Americans. There's whole episodes of the cartoon "King of the the Hill" that goes into this. In one, (https://kingofthehill.fandom.com/wiki/King_of_the_Ant_Hill), main character Hank is lawn-proud but chooses to discontinue weekly pesticide spraying by his exterminator friend, who eventually decides to sabotage Hanks' lawn with an ant infestation. Chaos ensues before everything's eventually resolved. And lawnmower pride is also a whole subculture.

Lawnmower pride?? Do I want to know?

I mean, my step dad frickin' LOVES his John Deere because they live in the country on 30 acres and he's 70, so I totally get why some people absolutely love their ride mowers, but something tells me you're not talking about some kind of wholesome love between a rural senior gent and his John Deere...

Here’s a glimpse - my neighborhood would have a “lawnmower parade” each 4th of July. The participants were nearly all male, with a median age north of 50. They would spend hours decorating their  riding lawnmowers to drive them in a line down the street at a casual jogging pace. One guy gave his a custom paint job that had flames and probably took him at least three weekends and a few hundred dollars to complete. Lawnmower “skins” (essentially enormous stickers designed to fit a particular lawnmower model are also popular. So we’re battery powered Christmas lights and cup holders for beer.

Basically they spent days making their mowers less useful for the function they were built.

And probably had a ton of fun doing the work and playing in the parade.

[Just Joe]

Given how little time my DD and her husband have to give to lawn care, or yard care in general, I am guessing a generational thing.  Plus possibly some families have more generational experience in gardening for local conditions?

Seriously, I know how to garden in a cold wet snowy climate.  Put me in Colorado or Arizona and I would be worse than a beginner, I would have incorrect knowledge.

My grandfather and his friends (Silent Generation) seemed to value bagging clippings and all that - if the yard was sufficiently small. With a push mower, catching the clippings for a larger yard might take all afternoon compared to just mowing it which might take an hour. Just how dedicated to this idea is this person? I remember in the 1970s people having piles of clippings at the back corner of the yard and us kids digging in it for worms to go fishing with.

Around here today people don't seem to collect the clippings, they just mow often so the clippings don't pile up and - for some folks lawn striping is important. For some reason.

[GilesMM]

All the professional lawn services and golf courses seem to bag the clippings for a far neater look to the mowed grass.

[Morning Glory]

All the professional lawn services and golf courses seem to bag the clippings for a far neater look to the mowed grass.

They also spray a bunch of crap that stinks to high heaven. I used to live near a golf course and hoa neighborhood and my eyes would water if I took a walk through there on lawn day. There's more to aesthetics than just looks. (The hoa also had cabbage growing as an ornamental near their sign which I found hilarious).

[Missy B]

This NASA study estimates that lawns take up 128,000 square kilometers in the U.S., which would make them the single largest irrigated "crop" in the country. There's another study which says that three-quarters of residential water use is people watering their lawns:

https://www.businessinsider.com/americas-biggest-crop-is-grass-2016-2?op=1

I certainly have never watered my lawn - and that seems to be true for the overwhelming majority of people who have a lawn:


If you want to ban watering lawns (probably a sensible thing to do), seems like the majority of people with lawns would not be impacted.  There are a few psychopaths (twice a day????) who are ruining things for everyone else.


Of course, if we really gave a shit about water conservation we would simply charge more for it.  People waste it because it's cheap enough that they don't think twice about wasting it.

We should probably ban other non-essential water uses as well, such as producing beer, wine, and recreational weed. Strictly speaking, these are not necessities yet require a lot of water.

It’s so weird how we’re living through a mass extinction event and still get defensive about not wanting to manage resources. Like, do we really need to pull stats on how much water ends up in beer vs what is used to water golf courses, obviously not a necessity?

Good lord. I remember how many bugs used to die on the car windshield during a suburban night drive when I was a kid. When’s the last time you needed to wash bug guts off your windshield (unless you live in a very rural area…)

This. I'm amazed by how we can drive an hour an a half and get one bug on the windshield. I don't miss them, but it can't be good.

[RWD]

Good lord. I remember how many bugs used to die on the car windshield during a suburban night drive when I was a kid. When’s the last time you needed to wash bug guts off your windshield (unless you live in a very rural area…)

This. I'm amazed by how we can drive an hour an a half and get one bug on the windshield. I don't miss them, but it can't be good.

I still seem to splatter plenty at night... I guess this would have been through a pretty rural area though.

[sixwings]

It is definitley important to leave grass clippings, not spray toxic chemicals, allow diversity in different grasses and broadleaf plants etc. But I'm not sure that not watering is a good idea unless you're in an area where water is scarce like Arizona. I live in the PNW and we do not have water issues, and if we did it's a reservoir size issue not a rainfall issue which is easier to fix. Like currently my reservoirs are both sitting around 80%, at the end of summer, in a year where we received much less rainfall than normal, and will be 100% by December. A brown hibernating lawn is not sucking in CO2, I dont think its providing food, flowers or habitat for foraging insects, it's just not really doing much. My approach is to allow and plant a variety of different ground covers, mow very rarely, and water it a couple times a week during the summer. Water conservation is not the issue in my area, habitat loss for bugs and climate change are the issues and not watering seems to do more harm than good. (I know most lawn grass arent particularly efficient at it but it's better than nothing).

My mind can be changed though.

I'm hopeful we're going to start seeing an end to lawn culture though. I think that's a boomer thing who got brainwashed by monsanto marketing in the 60s-90s. If people let their lawns become more meadow it would probably go a long way. I do think there's a potential market for a non-profit that converts peoples front lawns to natural meadows or farms it.

Also the lawnmower parade sounds hilarious! While odd I bet the people doing that have a lot of fun.

[RetiredAt63]

It is definitley important to leave grass clippings, not spray toxic chemicals, allow diversity in different grasses and broadleaf plants etc. But I'm not sure that not watering is a good idea unless you're in an area where water is scarce like Arizona. I live in the PNW and we do not have water issues, and if we did it's a reservoir size issue not a rainfall issue which is easier to fix. Like currently my reservoirs are both sitting around 80%, at the end of summer, in a year where we received much less rainfall than normal, and will be 100% by December. A brown hibernating lawn is not sucking in CO2, I dont think its providing food, flowers or habitat for foraging insects, it's just not really doing much. My approach is to allow and plant a variety of different ground covers, mow very rarely, and water it a couple times a week during the summer. Water conservation is not the issue in my area, habitat loss for bugs and climate change are the issues and not watering seems to do more harm than good. (I know most lawn grass arent particularly efficient at it but it's better than nothing).

My mind can be changed though.

I'm hopeful we're going to start seeing an end to lawn culture though. I think that's a boomer thing who got brainwashed by monsanto marketing in the 60s-90s. If people let their lawns become more meadow it would probably go a long way. I do think there's a potential market for a non-profit that converts peoples front lawns to natural meadows or farms it.

Also the lawnmower parade sounds hilarious! While odd I bet the people doing that have a lot of fun.

In climates where the grass goes dormant at the height of summer and then comes back in the late summer, letting it go dormant is most likely not hurting wildlife Having good plant variety in the lawn, and letting things flower, is more helpful.  Grasses just are not that great for a lot of animals - they are great for cows and grasshoppers.  But they do nothing for pollinators, they are wind pollinated.  Clovers and dandelions and whatever in the lawn are good pollinator plants.

Plus remember the bumblebees are native but honeybees are not.  We have lots and lots of native solitary bees that never get noticed.  So growing native plants that are good pollen and nectar sources is useful.  Native insects may not be able to use introduced plants.  Leaving habitat for egg-laying is useful.  Doing garden cleanup in the spring instead of the fall leaves places for insects to overwinter.  Having areas where larger plants can grow also helps - goldenrod and asters, for example, are important late summer/fall nectar plants.

Also, more generally, our butterflies (and many other insects) need plants for their caterpillars to eat.  So if you see damage on a plant, be glad that it is feeding something.   ;-)  (not including cabbage family plants and cabbage white butterfly here, it is an introduced species).

[GuitarStv]

Plus remember the bumblebees are native but honeybees are not.  We have lots and lots of native solitary bees that never get noticed.  So growing native plants that are good pollen and nectar sources is useful.  Native insects may not be able to use introduced plants.  Leaving habitat for egg-laying is useful.  Doing garden cleanup in the spring instead of the fall leaves places for insects to overwinter.  Having areas where larger plants can grow also helps - goldenrod and asters, for example, are important late summer/fall nectar plants.

Also, more generally, our butterflies (and many other insects) need plants for their caterpillars to eat.  So if you see damage on a plant, be glad that it is feeding something.   ;-)  (not including cabbage family plants and cabbage white butterfly here, it is an introduced species).

Since we're talking about bugs . . . I ran across an interesting fact recently.  Earthworms are also an invasive species not native to North America - and as they continue to expand into our forests a couple hundred years after intentional introduction by settlers they are causing a fair amount of damage to native creepy crawlies and forest plants.

It's something that I don't think gets enough press - and I suspect that many of the perfect lawn people transport them around the country while getting new sod.

https://www.ontarioparks.com/parksblog/earthworms-invasive-species/#:~:text=Some%20simple%20ways%20to%20help,not%20on%20land%20or%20water.

[tygertygertyger]

Yes! My partner was telling me that some scientists hypothesize that we may have some unknown native worms in the driftless area (sw wisconsin) but no one has tried to find them yet. How neat.

[RetiredAt63]

I read many years ago that we are losing forest plants that need deep leaf litter for germination, because of European earthworms.

We know so little about soil organisms, because they are small and hidden and hard to research.  And most people don't care.

[Metalcat]

I read many years ago that we are losing forest plants that need deep leaf litter for germination, because of European earthworms.

We know so little about soil organisms, because they are small and hidden and hard to research.  And most people don't care.

I just downloaded a book called The Insect Crisis, looks really interesting

[RetiredAt63]

I read many years ago that we are losing forest plants that need deep leaf litter for germination, because of European earthworms.

We know so little about soil organisms, because they are small and hidden and hard to research.  And most people don't care.

Is the author Oliver Milman?
I just downloaded a book called The Insect Crisis, looks really interesting

[Metalcat]

I read many years ago that we are losing forest plants that need deep leaf litter for germination, because of European earthworms.

We know so little about soil organisms, because they are small and hidden and hard to research.  And most people don't care.

I just downloaded a book called The Insect Crisis, looks really interesting

Is the author Oliver Milman?

Yeah. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

[RetiredAt63]

I read many years ago that we are losing forest plants that need deep leaf litter for germination, because of European earthworms.

We know so little about soil organisms, because they are small and hidden and hard to research.  And most people don't care.

I just downloaded a book called The Insect Crisis, looks really interesting

Is the author Oliver Milman?

Yeah. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

It's a good thing - my library has it and I just put it on hold.

[GodlessCommie]

Also, more generally, our butterflies (and many other insects) need plants for their caterpillars to eat.  So if you see damage on a plant, be glad that it is feeding something.   ;-)  (not including cabbage family plants and cabbage white butterfly here, it is an introduced species).

Once I learned about it, it totally changed the way I see things. I now rejoice at seeing leaves someone munched on, and get annoyed at pristine-looking exotics.

About disappearing insects, a bit of anecdata: we used to have tons of swallowtails and monarchs. We were actually annoyed by them. Yesterday I saw the first monarch of the season, and called my wife so that she had a chance to look at one. That despite milkweed being re-introduced in every neighborhood park, planted near every school, and many neighbors planting it.