Kill your lawn

[jeninco]

We have too much shade for a lawn. We planted "shady" grass seed and it still doesn't grow. I think the trees take all the water they can and the dry/shade combination is better for non-grassy plants. We've got a nice variety of shade plants, mostly woodland-type, and less and less lawn over time. We have a good selection of native shade tolerant plants that we're just letting seed themselves. They'll move to their favorite spots.

When I first moved into this place, 27 years ago, the trees were smaller, so more light came through and grass was possible. No longer. Shade is fine. Our house stays really cool in summer. We haven't had to turn on our AC yet this year, if you can believe it. We just run the dehumidifier on warmer days.

My position is that violets (which are growing into the shadier parts of our lawn) = grass. They're green, you can walk on them (up to a point) and they survive being mowed (with an electric mower, on the highest setting). Good enough for me!

I've actually been having fun experimenting with what'll grow in fairly dry shade. Along with the violets.

[Just Joe]

I sold that house in 2019.  I don't really miss the house that much, being that rural wasn't working for me any more, but I sure miss having a yard and gardens.  I had a 100' perennial low maintenance border - peonies, mostly grown from seed, day-lilies, Siberian Iris, and low perennials in the front.  Asparagus at the back.  Basically all tough plants, almost no watering, and very little weeding.  448 sq. feet of raised beds for vegetables.  A big fenced yard to play frisbee with the dog.

Gah, I'm going to talk myself into getting another house instead of my apartment with a balcony garden.  No lawn here.

Sounds beautiful!

[10dollarsatatime]

I killed the last of my lawn last year.  Utah has been in an awful drought, so I just stopped watering. I'm in the process of putting in drip irrigated perennial beds in the front.  The back and north sides are food gardens.  And I'm trying to get a drought tolerant grass mix to take off on the south side with the clover and grape hyacinths.  I don't like using herbicides. I'll use pesticides if nothing else will save a crop, but it's a last resort.

[Stable]

I killed the last of my lawn last year.  Utah has been in an awful drought, so I just stopped watering. I'm in the process of putting in drip irrigated perennial beds in the front.  The back and north sides are food gardens.  And I'm trying to get a drought tolerant grass mix to take off on the south side with the clover and grape hyacinths.  I don't like using herbicides. I'll use pesticides if nothing else will save a crop, but it's a last resort.

Sounds beautiful, great work.
My Dad's garden had grape hyacinths when he bought the place, and they were tough little things. They were taking over a bit, I think he ended up having to sift the bulbs out of the soil.

[NoVa]

Our front lawn never gets anything, no fertilizer, no pesticides, no watering. Just mowing, no bagging, leave the cut grass wherever it falls. There is a lot of clover and some patches of what looks like tiny strawberries. It's fine. The back yard is all garden, no grass.

[monarda]

We have too much shade for a lawn. We planted "shady" grass seed and it still doesn't grow. I think the trees take all the water they can and the dry/shade combination is better for non-grassy plants. We've got a nice variety of shade plants, mostly woodland-type, and less and less lawn over time. We have a good selection of native shade tolerant plants that we're just letting seed themselves. They'll move to their favorite spots.

When I first moved into this place, 27 years ago, the trees were smaller, so more light came through and grass was possible. No longer. Shade is fine. Our house stays really cool in summer. We haven't had to turn on our AC yet this year, if you can believe it. We just run the dehumidifier on warmer days.

My position is that violets (which are growing into the shadier parts of our lawn) = grass. They're green, you can walk on them (up to a point) and they survive being mowed (with an electric mower, on the highest setting). Good enough for me!

I've actually been having fun experimenting with what'll grow in fairly dry shade. Along with the violets.

We have violets, but they lose the battle to the creeping charlie- which I hate.
Let me know how your experiments turn out!

[GuitarStv]

Our front lawn never gets anything, no fertilizer, no pesticides, no watering. Just mowing, no bagging, leave the cut grass wherever it falls. There is a lot of clover and some patches of what looks like tiny strawberries. It's fine. The back yard is all garden, no grass.

My understanding has always been that leaving the cut grass where it falls ends up being much better for your lawn.  If you bag it and take it away you end up depriving your lawn of nutrients over time.

[Just Joe]

I've heard the same thing. Also helps motivate a person not to let the yard go too long between mowings b/c clumps!

[Arbitrage]

I think that when we talk about pricing water appropriately, as it's ridiculously cheap in most areas, we need to find a way to target the super-user rich people.  I have friends who keep a huge, lush property and large swimming pool (that needs frequent refilling in the desert climate) in southern CA.  They're dumping hundreds and hundreds of gallons every day into that property.  Basically every single property in their wealthy area is kept the same way, regardless of all of the drought.  At ~$3 per ccf, the cost of water doesn't even cause these 7-figure earners to bat an eyelash. 

You'd have to have some crazy pricing tiers for cost to change the behavior of water wasters like those.  Even at 10 times that price, they probably wouldn't care very much, and I think there are legal ramifications for charging more for a public utility than it actually costs to provide.

I moved from Southern CA to western WA, where there is no water stress.  Our household water usage has dropped a lot, but our water bills actually went up quite a bit.  Kind of backward, though it's really the fixed costs driving our water bill here.

[Raenia]

I think that when we talk about pricing water appropriately, as it's ridiculously cheap in most areas, we need to find a way to target the super-user rich people.  I have friends who keep a huge, lush property and large swimming pool (that needs frequent refilling in the desert climate) in southern CA.  They're dumping hundreds and hundreds of gallons every day into that property.  Basically every single property in their wealthy area is kept the same way, regardless of all of the drought.  At ~$3 per ccf, the cost of water doesn't even cause these 7-figure earners to bat an eyelash. 

You'd have to have some crazy pricing tiers for cost to change the behavior of water wasters like those.  Even at 10 times that price, they probably wouldn't care very much, and I think there are legal ramifications for charging more for a public utility than it actually costs to provide.

I moved from Southern CA to western WA, where there is no water stress.  Our household water usage has dropped a lot, but our water bills actually went up quite a bit.  Kind of backward, though it's really the fixed costs driving our water bill here.

I'm sure it's not practical for a number of reasons, but I'd love to see an exponential pricing curve. I.E. the marginal cost of each gallon goes up. Scale it so low income, low usage households pay less, while people watering huge lawns and filling pools pay out the nose.

[ChickenStash]

Do most municipalities have a tiered cost for water?

For my area, the $/gal is tiered (like tax brackets) and the higher the volume, the greater the cost per unit in the tier. We're something like 0-3k gallons, 3k-10k, 10k+, IIRC. The cost goes up 25-30% for each tier.

[nereo]

Do most municipalities have a tiered cost for water?

For my area, the $/gal is tiered (like tax brackets) and the higher the volume, the greater the cost per unit in the tier. We're something like 0-3k gallons, 3k-10k, 10k+, IIRC. The cost goes up 25-30% for each tier.

Ours is this way. The first 2 cubic yards per month are essentially free. You pay one rate for up to 9 cubic yards and a lot more for usage over 9 cubic yards. I think there’s a forth tier around 20 cubic yards but we’ve never hit it.

[RetiredAt63]

If you are on a well, your water use directly affects your electricity use.  Plus there is always the possibility of pumping out your well if you don't have lots of water available.  I knew a family who ended up with mud in their house pipes.  My neighbours on the same aquifer could do one water use at a time - shower, or wash clothes, or wash dishes.  Not any 2 of the 3.  It all depends on which aquifer your well is tapping, and their aquifer had lovely soft water but low pressure.  We lived next door and our well was in a different aquifer (pump was 200 feet down, so think of the electricity), lots of pressure, we could do everything at once, but it was super hard iron-rich water.

[Ron Scott]

Scroll right

[GilesMM]

Ronnie,


I would have to adjust my thinking (frequently do!0 to see that garden as anything other than a chaotic mess.  But thanks for posting.

[RetiredAt63]

I love that garden!  Vegetables in the raised beds, flowers, paths, everything growing.

Ron, I save and resized your picture so it could be viewed all at once. It lost all the detail but you can see the overall garden.   I think having to scroll all over it (or at least I had to) makes it harder to appreciate it.  I will take it down if you want me to.

[GilesMM]

Some examples I find appealing:






[size=78%]


[/size]

[Ron Scott]

I love that garden!  Vegetables in the raised beds, flowers, paths, everything growing.

Ron, I save and resized your picture so it could be viewed all at once. It lost all the detail but you can see the overall garden.   I think having to scroll all over it (or at least I had to) makes it harder to appreciate it.  I will take it down if you want me to.

Thanks for doing that!

We took a third of our (well maintained) backyard lawn and converted it into something like this. Everyone loves it.

[Wintergreen78]

I think that when we talk about pricing water appropriately, as it's ridiculously cheap in most areas, we need to find a way to target the super-user rich people.  I have friends who keep a huge, lush property and large swimming pool (that needs frequent refilling in the desert climate) in southern CA.  They're dumping hundreds and hundreds of gallons every day into that property.  Basically every single property in their wealthy area is kept the same way, regardless of all of the drought.  At ~$3 per ccf, the cost of water doesn't even cause these 7-figure earners to bat an eyelash. 

You'd have to have some crazy pricing tiers for cost to change the behavior of water wasters like those.  Even at 10 times that price, they probably wouldn't care very much, and I think there are legal ramifications for charging more for a public utility than it actually costs to provide.

I moved from Southern CA to western WA, where there is no water stress.  Our household water usage has dropped a lot, but our water bills actually went up quite a bit.  Kind of backward, though it's really the fixed costs driving our water bill here.

I'm sure it's not practical for a number of reasons, but I'd love to see an exponential pricing curve. I.E. the marginal cost of each gallon goes up. Scale it so low income, low usage households pay less, while people watering huge lawns and filling pools pay out the nose.

It’s frustrating, the law in California says municipal water suppliers have to tie water prices to the cost of supplying water. So, they can not set prices for high water users to discourage wastefulness.

If you can show that it costs more to supply water for higher users, you can have a tiered structure that reflects the actual costs. But, for most people in California with big yards the cost of water isn’t enough to keep them from irrigating thirsty plants all summer.

If you wanted to change the system, you’d have to change the law first.

[RetiredAt63]

Some examples I find appealing:

Those are beautiful too, but I look at all the rock mulch and think WEEDS!  Because I inherited a rock mulch like that and spent huge chunks of my summers weeding it.  Places that want to grow forests are also really good at growing weeds.    ;-(

[mspym]

We are moving to our new house in a place that used to be a marsh and has a very high water table. No one has done anything with the section in 60 years other than plant and mow a flat lawn. It’s so barren looking. I can’t wait to start replacing the lawn with other plants. We’ll still keep some clear for the dog to run around in but I’m looking up replacement options. I might just let the clover take it. We’re going to put in native flaxes and ferns to suck up the water. If the land wants t revert to marsh, it seems easiest to roll with it than to try fight it.

[Metalcat]

Some examples I find appealing:

Those are beautiful too, but I look at all the rock mulch and think WEEDS!  Because I inherited a rock mulch like that and spent huge chunks of my summers weeding it.  Places that want to grow forests are also really good at growing weeds.    ;-(

So true, Out here on the rock, the weeds are like Jurassic versions of normal weeds. They're just massive and very aggressive.

They swallowed my utility trailer, I doubt I'll see it again this season. I'm legit afraid of the grassy area on the far side of the RV, it's grown up to the height of my chest.

Our "grass" here is also hay, not typical lawn grass, and it's heavily mixed with stinging nettles, which will grow up to 10ft tall, shocking quickly in an environment that alternates intense sun and heavy rain every few days.

If we didn't have such long, harsh winters, I'm pretty sure the "lawn" would swallow the house.

[mspym]

Some examples I find appealing:

Those are beautiful too, but I look at all the rock mulch and think WEEDS!  Because I inherited a rock mulch like that and spent huge chunks of my summers weeding it.  Places that want to grow forests are also really good at growing weeds.    ;-(

So true, Out here on the rock, the weeds are like Jurassic versions of normal weeds. They're just massive and very aggressive.

They swallowed my utility trailer, I doubt I'll see it again this season. I'm legit afraid of the grassy area on the far side of the RV, it's grown up to the height of my chest.

Our "grass" here is also hay, not typical lawn grass, and it's heavily mixed with stinging nettles, which will grow up to 10ft tall, shocking quickly in an environment that alternates intense sun and heavy rain every few days.

If we didn't have such long, harsh winters, I'm pretty sure the "lawn" would swallow the house.

Sounds like an excuse to get some goats to me
:D

[RetiredAt63]

Stinging nettles, ouch.  Of course they are an introduced species.  And timothy or whatever other grasses are grown in hay-fields there.  You need someone with a scythe.

This is an interesting article.  You may have the site for a garden,
https://www.thespruce.com/description-of-stinging-nettles-plants-2132937


Stinging nettles are great fibre plants.  They were the fine plant fibre source of northern Europe before flax.  The fibre is actually finer, so the cloth from it is fine.  Of course this is all second-hand information, I haven't processed either fibre.  But think of the length of fibre you would get from 10' tall plants.  A spinner would need a good distaff for that.

Remember the story of the 12 princes who were turned into swans, and their sister could only free them from the enchantment by making shirts from stinging nettles and throwing them over the swans' heads?  When I was a kid this made no sense, but now it makes all kind of sense.  Of course royal swans would only get the finest of fibres processed into cloth and then shirts.  That was a lot of work for their sister, though.

[Ron Scott]

It’s frustrating, the law in California says municipal water suppliers have to tie water prices to the cost of supplying water. So, they can not set prices for high water users to discourage wastefulness.

If you wanted to change the system, you’d have to change the law first.

Seems to me that the cost of servicing large customers with high usage is actually less per gallon than small users to be honest, but if you don’t want to pass law to effect change how do you propose to do it? I know it sometimes looks like we’ve lost our minds in America but for the most part we’re still a country of laws. This is not going to get done by authoritarian decree…

[Wintergreen78]

It’s frustrating, the law in California says municipal water suppliers have to tie water prices to the cost of supplying water. So, they can not set prices for high water users to discourage wastefulness.

If you wanted to change the system, you’d have to change the law first.

Seems to me that the cost of servicing large customers with high usage is actually less per gallon than small users to be honest, but if you don’t want to pass law to effect change how do you propose to do it? I know it sometimes looks like we’ve lost our minds in America but for the most part we’re still a country of laws. This is not going to get done by authoritarian decree…

Yes, I would like to see the law changed so that tiered pricing can be put in place. That happens by voting for representatives, who then introduce a bill, debate it, then pass it. You know, how democracies work. That is exactly the opposite of an authoritarian decree.

[Telecaster]

We took a third of our (well maintained) backyard lawn and converted it into something like this. Everyone loves it.

I love it too.  Lovely garden paths with interesting plants that are always changing.  Plus edible herbs and vegetables.  I think this type of yard is great. 

Those are beautiful too, but I look at all the rock mulch and think WEEDS!  Because I inherited a rock mulch like that and spent huge chunks of my summers weeding it.  Places that want to grow forests are also really good at growing weeds.    ;-(

Weed burner baby!  Weeds have no chance in my rock mulch or in-between cracks on concrete pavers. 

[Metalcat]

Sounds like an excuse to get some goats to me
:D

If it weren't winter here 8 months of the year, maybe, but there are almost no animals on this island because the conditions are too harsh.

Plus my lawn is tiny, it's just that I have an RV parked in my second driveway and I own a small patch of the land on the other side next to crown land that no one maintains. I didn't bother staying on top of the other side because out-os-sight-out-of-mind kind of thing. But the other day I wanted to grab my utility trailer to go pick up some materials and I was like "HOLY SHIT" because it's just gone. I only put it there 8 weeks ago.

Unless I hire someone to hack away the hay and nettles, both of which grow incredibly thick and sturdy, I'm just not getting it out this year. To even walk in there would mean having to cover my whole body with thick enough fabric to defend against the nettles, plus there are a lot of spiders in there, so no thanks.

None of it grows super thick as long as I stay on top of it with my little weed whacker, but I now understand why my neighbours were so concerned that I get on top of mowing my lawn and why they just did it for me last year when I didn't have a mower or anywhere to store one.

I get now how out of hand the situation gets if I let the plants get too thick. A regular mower or trimmer can't handle them past a certain height and heft. I had just never dealt with a lawn like this before that is eager to swallow things whole within a matter of weeks.

[Metalcat]

Stinging nettles, ouch.  Of course they are an introduced species.  And timothy or whatever other grasses are grown in hay-fields there.  You need someone with a scythe.

This is an interesting article.  You may have the site for a garden,
https://www.thespruce.com/description-of-stinging-nettles-plants-2132937


Stinging nettles are great fibre plants.  They were the fine plant fibre source of northern Europe before flax.  The fibre is actually finer, so the cloth from it is fine.  Of course this is all second-hand information, I haven't processed either fibre.  But think of the length of fibre you would get from 10' tall plants.  A spinner would need a good distaff for that.

Remember the story of the 12 princes who were turned into swans, and their sister could only free them from the enchantment by making shirts from stinging nettles and throwing them over the swans' heads?  When I was a kid this made no sense, but now it makes all kind of sense.  Of course royal swans would only get the finest of fibres processed into cloth and then shirts.  That was a lot of work for their sister, though.

Yes! A scythe would definitely help. I used to use a scythe back in the day for hay, so I would just need to borrow one.

I'm not about to start farming nettles and spinning fibers though. Maybe if I move my mom here she'll do it, she loves that kind of shit. I did know as a kid that nettles can be used for fine fiber because of her, so that story made sense to me.

[RetiredAt63]

Stinging nettles, ouch.  Of course they are an introduced species.  And timothy or whatever other grasses are grown in hay-fields there.  You need someone with a scythe.

This is an interesting article.  You may have the site for a garden,
https://www.thespruce.com/description-of-stinging-nettles-plants-2132937


Stinging nettles are great fibre plants.  They were the fine plant fibre source of northern Europe before flax.  The fibre is actually finer, so the cloth from it is fine.  Of course this is all second-hand information, I haven't processed either fibre.  But think of the length of fibre you would get from 10' tall plants.  A spinner would need a good distaff for that.

Remember the story of the 12 princes who were turned into swans, and their sister could only free them from the enchantment by making shirts from stinging nettles and throwing them over the swans' heads?  When I was a kid this made no sense, but now it makes all kind of sense.  Of course royal swans would only get the finest of fibres processed into cloth and then shirts.  That was a lot of work for their sister, though.

Yes! A scythe would definitely help. I used to use a scythe back in the day for hay, so I would just need to borrow one.

I'm not about to start farming nettles and spinning fibers though. Maybe if I move my mom here she'll do it, she loves that kind of shit. I did know as a kid that nettles can be used for fine fiber because of her, so that story made sense to me.

I'm thinking that not starting spinning nettles makes good sense.  It would be fun if your mom tried though.  Processing starts in late summer/fall, when the stalks are mature and dying so they can be retted.   Probably just about now.  Check out Sally Pointer's YouTube videos.

I wouldn't be surprised, given how small the area is, if you could find someone to cut it now.  Better than letting it all go to seed.  Remember the old gardener saying, 1 year of seeds = 7 years of weeds.

[Metalcat]

I'm thinking that not starting spinning nettles makes good sense.  It would be fun if your mom tried though.  Processing starts in late summer/fall, when the stalks are mature and dying so they can be retted.   Probably just about now.  Check out Sally Pointer's YouTube videos.

I wouldn't be surprised, given how small the area is, if you could find someone to cut it now.  Better than letting it all go to seed.  Remember the old gardener saying, 1 year of seeds = 7 years of weeds.

Oh, the nettles totally took over a long time ago, there's no managing them, they're endemic. They're not so much weeds as just the makeup of the "grass" in general. I would say, like, 30% of my lawn is nettles. There isn't a spot you could possibly step barefoot. The whole area is like that, just hay, nettles, and absolutely enormous dandelions.

[movingmemospdx]

I love those gorgeous perennials in those 3 photos. I hate grass. I never water mine, and it's only maybe 1/3 of my front yard. The rest is trees and ferns and perennials and bulbs. I love forests so I'm slowly going in that direction, planting trees and ferns.

[Ron Scott]

Some examples I find appealing:

Those are beautiful too, but I look at all the rock mulch and think WEEDS!  Because I inherited a rock mulch like that and spent huge chunks of my summers weeding it.  Places that want to grow forests are also really good at growing weeds.    ;-(

In our previous house we had rocks like that in an atrium with specimen trees and some pine-scrub shrubs. Looked great but got weeds. So we redid the rocks putting landscape netting under them that allows rain to filer through but not weeds growing up. It lasts about 7 years or so. After that weeds can grow in the silt that settles over time and it will decay a bit. But it’s a good solution if you like the look.

Like this:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Vigoro-4-ft-x-50-ft-Point-Bond-Landscape-Fabric-NMV04050B/314273723#overlay

[nereo]

Some examples I find appealing:

Those are beautiful too, but I look at all the rock mulch and think WEEDS!  Because I inherited a rock mulch like that and spent huge chunks of my summers weeding it.  Places that want to grow forests are also really good at growing weeds.    ;-(

In our previous house we had rocks like that in an atrium with specimen trees and some pine-scrub shrubs. Looked great but got weeds. So we redid the rocks putting landscape netting under them that allows rain to filer through but not weeds growing up. It lasts about 7 years or so. After that weeds can grow in the silt that settles over time and it will decay a bit. But it’s a good solution if you like the look.

Like this:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Vigoro-4-ft-x-50-ft-Point-Bond-Landscape-Fabric-NMV04050B/314273723#overlay

That’s polypropylene fabric which you are using to line your yard.  Ultimately you just get shredded plastic fibers everywhere in your soil and as you said isn’t a permanent solution. After a few years you have just as many weeds *and* plastic.   I think it’s a terrible “solution” that future inhabitants will be cursing.

[Telecaster]

That’s polypropylene fabric which you are using to line your yard.  Ultimately you just get shredded plastic fibers everywhere in your soil and as you said isn’t a permanent solution. After a few years you have just as many weeds *and* plastic.   I think it’s a terrible “solution” that future inhabitants will be cursing.

Co-signed.  I hate that crap.    A much more Earth-friendly solution and less work is to blast the weeds with a weed burner as they weeds start to poke up, a couple times a year, or as needed.   You'll either be redoing to the landscape fabric or using the weed burner eventually anyway.  So might as well skip a step.   

If you need something to stomp down the weeds/grass initially you can lay down burlap bags.

[10dollarsatatime]

That’s polypropylene fabric which you are using to line your yard.  Ultimately you just get shredded plastic fibers everywhere in your soil and as you said isn’t a permanent solution. After a few years you have just as many weeds *and* plastic.   I think it’s a terrible “solution” that future inhabitants will be cursing.

Co-signed.  I hate that crap.    A much more Earth-friendly solution and less work is to blast the weeds with a weed burner as they weeds start to poke up, a couple times a year, or as needed.   You'll either be redoing to the landscape fabric or using the weed burner eventually anyway.  So might as well skip a step.   

If you need something to stomp down the weeds/grass initially you can lay down burlap bags.

The weed fabric is the worst.  The previous owners of my home had put in a smallish garden in the backyard.  I discovered while weeding it out so i could plant it the first year that they had put down the fabric and then topped it with 6" or so of dirt. Now the weeds are going through it, I can't till, I can't get the shovel through... I've let that one go for now, but am planning this winter to dig up the whole 10x20 area to get rid of that garbage.

Nowadays, when starting new beds and smothering weeds, I put down a thick layer of cardboard.  Smothers the weeds and then decomposes.  it's lovely.

[La Bibliotecaria Feroz]

That’s polypropylene fabric which you are using to line your yard.  Ultimately you just get shredded plastic fibers everywhere in your soil and as you said isn’t a permanent solution. After a few years you have just as many weeds *and* plastic.   I think it’s a terrible “solution” that future inhabitants will be cursing.

Co-signed.  I hate that crap.    A much more Earth-friendly solution and less work is to blast the weeds with a weed burner as they weeds start to poke up, a couple times a year, or as needed.   You'll either be redoing to the landscape fabric or using the weed burner eventually anyway.  So might as well skip a step.   

If you need something to stomp down the weeds/grass initially you can lay down burlap bags.

The weed fabric is the worst.  The previous owners of my home had put in a smallish garden in the backyard.  I discovered while weeding it out so i could plant it the first year that they had put down the fabric and then topped it with 6" or so of dirt. Now the weeds are going through it, I can't till, I can't get the shovel through... I've let that one go for now, but am planning this winter to dig up the whole 10x20 area to get rid of that garbage.

Nowadays, when starting new beds and smothering weeds, I put down a thick layer of cardboard.  Smothers the weeds and then decomposes.  it's lovely.

If you are using rock mulch, you don't want that sinking into your dirt! What would be better under rock mulch? If I use cardboard or burlap, seems like it would just decompose and leave me with rocks sinking into my dirt.

I'm actually putting some rock mulch down ASAP so if people think I should not use landscape fabric, speak now or forever hold your peace! I don't want to use wood chip mulch because (a) I already own the surplus rocks and (b) it is right by the foundation where the downspout to the gutter comes down.

[RetiredAt63]

That’s polypropylene fabric which you are using to line your yard.  Ultimately you just get shredded plastic fibers everywhere in your soil and as you said isn’t a permanent solution. After a few years you have just as many weeds *and* plastic.   I think it’s a terrible “solution” that future inhabitants will be cursing.

Co-signed.  I hate that crap.    A much more Earth-friendly solution and less work is to blast the weeds with a weed burner as they weeds start to poke up, a couple times a year, or as needed.   You'll either be redoing to the landscape fabric or using the weed burner eventually anyway.  So might as well skip a step.   

If you need something to stomp down the weeds/grass initially you can lay down burlap bags.

The weed fabric is the worst.  The previous owners of my home had put in a smallish garden in the backyard.  I discovered while weeding it out so i could plant it the first year that they had put down the fabric and then topped it with 6" or so of dirt. Now the weeds are going through it, I can't till, I can't get the shovel through... I've let that one go for now, but am planning this winter to dig up the whole 10x20 area to get rid of that garbage.

Nowadays, when starting new beds and smothering weeds, I put down a thick layer of cardboard.  Smothers the weeds and then decomposes.  it's lovely.

If you are using rock mulch, you don't want that sinking into your dirt! What would be better under rock mulch? If I use cardboard or burlap, seems like it would just decompose and leave me with rocks sinking into my dirt.

I'm actually putting some rock mulch down ASAP so if people think I should not use landscape fabric, speak now or forever hold your peace! I don't want to use wood chip mulch because (a) I already own the surplus rocks and (b) it is right by the foundation where the downspout to the gutter comes down.

You will eventually get weeds in your rock mulch.  That is what weeds do, colonize open areas.  So cardboard, or a biodegradable fabric that is tighter than burlap.

I too had a garden that the previous owners used weed fabric on, and it was hell once the weeds moved in.

[nereo]

That’s polypropylene fabric which you are using to line your yard.  Ultimately you just get shredded plastic fibers everywhere in your soil and as you said isn’t a permanent solution. After a few years you have just as many weeds *and* plastic.   I think it’s a terrible “solution” that future inhabitants will be cursing.

Co-signed.  I hate that crap.    A much more Earth-friendly solution and less work is to blast the weeds with a weed burner as they weeds start to poke up, a couple times a year, or as needed.   You'll either be redoing to the landscape fabric or using the weed burner eventually anyway.  So might as well skip a step.   

If you need something to stomp down the weeds/grass initially you can lay down burlap bags.

The weed fabric is the worst.  The previous owners of my home had put in a smallish garden in the backyard.  I discovered while weeding it out so i could plant it the first year that they had put down the fabric and then topped it with 6" or so of dirt. Now the weeds are going through it, I can't till, I can't get the shovel through... I've let that one go for now, but am planning this winter to dig up the whole 10x20 area to get rid of that garbage.

Nowadays, when starting new beds and smothering weeds, I put down a thick layer of cardboard.  Smothers the weeds and then decomposes.  it's lovely.

If you are using rock mulch, you don't want that sinking into your dirt! What would be better under rock mulch? If I use cardboard or burlap, seems like it would just decompose and leave me with rocks sinking into my dirt.

I'm actually putting some rock mulch down ASAP so if people think I should not use landscape fabric, speak now or forever hold your peace! I don't want to use wood chip mulch because (a) I already own the surplus rocks and (b) it is right by the foundation where the downspout to the gutter comes down.

Plastic landscape fabric won’t stop rock mulch from accumulating sediment and growing weeds. Within a few years the spaces within the rocks will trap finer particles (“dirt”) and weeds will grow above the fabric. There is nothing that will prevent this from happening. There is a continuous source of particles in the form of pollen and dust, plus any leaves, grass clippings or other debris will become dirt in short order.

To stop rock mulch or gravel from “sinking” you need to have a firm base rather than loose soil. A couple inches of decomposed granite or sand, lightly compacted, work very well.

For barrier fabrics you can find fine mesh burlap at some garden supply centers, but I’d still recommend double or triple layering.

[La Bibliotecaria Feroz]

You will eventually get weeds in your rock mulch.  That is what weeds do, colonize open areas.  So cardboard, or a biodegradable fabric that is tighter than burlap.

I too had a garden that the previous owners used weed fabric on, and it was hell once the weeds moved in.

I have lots of weeds in my rock mulch. I hate rock mulch but my husband prefers it and like I said, we already have some and it's by the foundation. Will I have to replace the underlayer more often if I use something biodegradable, or does it last about as long as it would anyway before the weeds start up again?

A coworker loaned me his very Mustachian homemade trammel so I can dig up some of the beds, clean the rocks and put them back down.

[RetiredAt63]

You will eventually get weeds in your rock mulch.  That is what weeds do, colonize open areas.  So cardboard, or a biodegradable fabric that is tighter than burlap.

I too had a garden that the previous owners used weed fabric on, and it was hell once the weeds moved in.

I have lots of weeds in my rock mulch. I hate rock mulch but my husband prefers it and like I said, we already have some and it's by the foundation. Will I have to replace the underlayer more often if I use something biodegradable, or does it last about as long as it would anyway before the weeds start up again?

A coworker loaned me his very Mustachian homemade trammel so I can dig up some of the beds, clean the rocks and put them back down.

The weeds will be harder to pull (much much harder) if you have landscape fabric.  They will always be there, for the reasons nereo pointed out. 

[hollaynia]

Took out another 100+ sq ft of lawn in the back yard today (we are taking the gradual approach). Plan is to leave a reasonably-sized central lawn area but have native perennials and vegetable gardens everywhere else. The side yards have now been fully converted with a grass path.

[Telecaster]

I have lots of weeds in my rock mulch. I hate rock mulch but my husband prefers it and like I said, we already have some and it's by the foundation. Will I have to replace the underlayer more often if I use something biodegradable, or does it last about as long as it would anyway before the weeds start up again?

A coworker loaned me his very Mustachian homemade trammel so I can dig up some of the beds, clean the rocks and put them back down.

If you are relying on a barrier, you'll get weeds eventually.   One problem is that as @nereo say soil will naturally build up through wind and rain action and you'll still get weeds regardless of the barrier type.   

Digging up the beds, cleaning up the rock, and putting it back sounds like a lot of work to me.  I'm sounding like a broken record, but what you need is a weed burner like this one:

https://www.amazon.com/Propane-Control-Trigger-Igniter-Flamethrower/dp/B09DYB7DM6/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=1584DUMFIBWOE&keywords=weed%2Bburner&qid=1693087027&sprefix=weed%2Bburner%2Caps%2C156&sr=8-2-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&th=1

A couple times a year or however often it needs it, you simply make a flaming pass over the rock mulch and all the weeds die.    Despite the name, you don't actually need to burn the weeds.  The killing action is boiling the water in the cells which causes them to burst and the weed dies.   Way less work and way more fun than digging up all the rock and weeding. 

[La Bibliotecaria Feroz]

I have lots of weeds in my rock mulch. I hate rock mulch but my husband prefers it and like I said, we already have some and it's by the foundation. Will I have to replace the underlayer more often if I use something biodegradable, or does it last about as long as it would anyway before the weeds start up again?

A coworker loaned me his very Mustachian homemade trammel so I can dig up some of the beds, clean the rocks and put them back down.

If you are relying on a barrier, you'll get weeds eventually.   One problem is that as @nereo say soil will naturally build up through wind and rain action and you'll still get weeds regardless of the barrier type.   

Digging up the beds, cleaning up the rock, and putting it back sounds like a lot of work to me.  I'm sounding like a broken record, but what you need is a weed burner like this one:

https://www.amazon.com/Propane-Control-Trigger-Igniter-Flamethrower/dp/B09DYB7DM6/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=1584DUMFIBWOE&keywords=weed%2Bburner&qid=1693087027&sprefix=weed%2Bburner%2Caps%2C156&sr=8-2-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&th=1

A couple times a year or however often it needs it, you simply make a flaming pass over the rock mulch and all the weeds die.    Despite the name, you don't actually need to burn the weeds.  The killing action is boiling the water in the cells which causes them to burst and the weed dies.   Way less work and way more fun than digging up all the rock and weeding.

The barrier is not to prevent weeds. It is to keep the rocks from sinking into the soil. I've tried burning but actually usually find hand-pulling to be easier and to last longer as well as being more environmentally friendly. Not to mention, I can't figure where to recycle the empty propane canisters and they are cluttering my garage.

I'm only planning to re-do like two small beds. One I don't think has ANY barrier under it, the rocks are too thin a layer (I will scavenge some more from elsewhere) and the weeds are real bad. But the longer the rock sits there the more dirt it has- I don't see an option that does not involve eventually digging it up and cleaning or replacing it.

[monarda]

Depending on the size of the rocks, how about chicken wire or hardware cloth (or window screen?) under the rocks?
Won't break down like landscape fabric and will serve to keep the rocks and dirt separate. Plus you can (very likely) get that free from craigslist, or FB marketplace.

[La Bibliotecaria Feroz]

Depending on the size of the rocks, how about chicken wire or hardware cloth (or window screen?) under the rocks?
Won't break down like landscape fabric and will serve to keep the rocks and dirt separate. Plus you can (very likely) get that free from craigslist, or FB marketplace.

Hmm, that's an interesting idea! I might try it!

[RetiredAt63]

Depending on the size of the rocks, how about chicken wire or hardware cloth (or window screen?) under the rocks?
Won't break down like landscape fabric and will serve to keep the rocks and dirt separate. Plus you can (very likely) get that free from craigslist, or FB marketplace.

Or a tamped construction sand base?  They use gravel and sand for usual paving, so the same principles would apply.  And I know from experience that weeds pull more easily out of sand than out of soil.

[evme]

I'm sounding like a broken record, but what you need is a weed burner like this one:

https://www.amazon.com/Propane-Control-Trigger-Igniter-Flamethrower/dp/B09DYB7DM6/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=1584DUMFIBWOE&keywords=weed%2Bburner&qid=1693087027&sprefix=weed%2Bburner%2Caps%2C156&sr=8-2-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&th=1

A couple times a year or however often it needs it, you simply make a flaming pass over the rock mulch and all the weeds die.    Despite the name, you don't actually need to burn the weeds.  The killing action is boiling the water in the cells which causes them to burst and the weed dies.   Way less work and way more fun than digging up all the rock and weeding.

Does a weed burner work when weeds are full grown or does it need to be done while they are still small?

[nereo]

Weed burners will kill full grown weeds. We have a gravel driveway and used one to “reclaim” the edges, where weeds had grown in and matured over several years.

As for canisters, just use a standard refillable propane tank. I use the same one we use on our propane grill.

[RetiredAt63]

Weed burners will kill full grown weeds. We have a gravel driveway and used one to “reclaim” the edges, where weeds had grown in and matured over several years.

As for canisters, just use a standard refillable propane tank. I use the same one we use on our propane grill.

I've seen little dollies for the propane tank advertised as well, so you aren't lugging the tank.

Here is the torch - and they also have a mini torch

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/garden/garden-care/weeders/47306-giant-weed-torch