Author Topic: Kids' College Costs  (Read 16211 times)

Much Fishing to Do

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Kids' College Costs
« on: December 31, 2016, 08:14:11 AM »
So I'm interested in what everyone with kids retiring before they head to college has planned for future college costs.  I assume I'm like most people who don't think I OWE it to my children to pay for college, but WANTS to give them a good start in their independent life in this age of extreme tuition costs.  And unlike most parents who are figuring out how to juggle costs and don't quite know the effect paying for college will have on their retirements, for those that FIRE first it can be a pretty straight forward cost and decision (I have to work x longer to save y extra amount for those costs).

This year I should hit my intended target of having a 529 set up for each of my 3 children that contain prepaid credits that cover 4 years tuition at the big state schools.  Given we live a very short drive to one of those schools, and I'd let them live at home and eat out of the fridge if they wanted to for 4 years, they could graduate debt free if they go that path with very little extra work on the side required for their few expenses.  This obviously pushed comfortable FIRE date forward somewhat significantly (maybe around a year for each child).

Just interested others goals/plans/actions out there for those in similar situations.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 08:17:24 AM by Strick »

boarder42

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2016, 09:24:16 AM »
There are also scholarships. I don't like 529s personally. They come with a 10% penalty if not used for education.

boarder42

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2016, 09:28:39 AM »
College is much less a concern of mine than what the us does with healthcare. Ive said in many different places on this forum that I don't personally believe there will be college the same way we have today in 19-20 years. Look at the Kahn academy. College was invented as a need to get knowledge in one place to research and grow more knowledge. Now we have a central place most everyone can access in their pocket in all first world countries. It's the internet.

Much Fishing to Do

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2016, 09:48:09 AM »
College is much less a concern of mine than what the us does with healthcare. Ive said in many different places on this forum that I don't personally believe there will be college the same way we have today in 19-20 years. Look at the Kahn academy. College was invented as a need to get knowledge in one place to research and grow more knowledge. Now we have a central place most everyone can access in their pocket in all first world countries. It's the internet.

Totally agree.  I just don't think college is obsolete yet nor will it be in the next 5-10 years. 

Yes, 529s (and my use of the prepaid tuition plan) may not the best way to go, I was just interested in how much help people were planning to give given the immense range between zero and "fully funded" (whatever that may be) for those that incorporated it into their FIRE plans.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 09:59:40 AM by Strick »

ltt

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2016, 10:05:29 AM »
My husband is probably 4-5 years away from retirement.  Our oldest child attends a private college, while our three others are are still in school.  This is what we've done/are doing.  For our three youngest, they will attend a community college.  I would love it if they would attend a four-year college, but for each of them, a community college will serve their educational needs better.  Currently, their education is funded, although we do expect them to contribute a small amount of money toward tuition.  We do not believe any of them will receive scholarships.  For our oldest at the private college, he received renewable scholarships.  We also have the first semester of his next 3 years funded.  The spring semester of the next 3 years will be funded by some of our dividend/capital gains received year-end, plus the education tax credit.  Our son has contributed or will contribute a few thousand dollars from working per year to his education.  He will also be taking out some loans.

I highly suggest doing the majority of college general credits either at a community college or through your child's high school/community college (as dual credit).  It is so worth it to have your child knock off 15 credit hours, although in our case I'm not sure it will matter at the end of four years at our son's private college, as he's not necessarily going to graduate any sooner.

I'm not a fan of the 529s either.   

FINate

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2016, 10:24:12 AM »
We've set aside a certain amount in 529s for each of our two children, presently 4 and 6. The amount, after conservative compound growth, should be sufficient for 4 years of in state tuition, room and board, and miscellaneous qualified expenses. We consider the 529s the capstone in raising our children. Providing the opportunity for a quality education w/o student loan debt should be more than sufficient for them to take flight on their own, so there will be no further subsidies in adulthood (of course we'd make exceptions for sickness/disability).

As the kids approach adolescence the 529s will become a point of conversation. We'll let the kids choose their own schools and majors, but we will discuss options with them. If they want to attend a prestige university that's their choice, but they will need to figure out how to finance it after the 529 runs out. If they want to live at home while attending the local community college and/or state university, then they should be able to stretch the funding into grad school or beyond.

If they don't end up using the funds that's fine with us and we will simply eat the 10% penalty on the earnings portion of the 529s - no point in sweating the small stuff.


CheapScholar

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2016, 10:41:30 AM »
Both my wife and I work in higher Ed and receive generous tuition breaks for dependents.  We only have one child and my FIRE date is based on when he is 22. 

boarder42

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2016, 10:49:08 AM »
Our plan is to make them pay and get loans and scholarships. If/when they graduate. Their present will be no loans. 

greengardens

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2016, 10:59:03 AM »
There are also scholarships. I don't like 529s personally. They come with a 10% penalty if not used for education.

Not to get off-topic but is there a reason you don't like 529s? Is it just the penalty aspect or are there other reasons? I ask because this holiday season I was asked to contribute to my nieces and nephews 529s as opposed to giving them gifts. I vastly preferred writing the check to picking out gifts.

Goldielocks

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2016, 11:17:49 AM »
529 -- I have not researched these well, (I am in the Canadian system now)  but I thought the advantages were:
 - Tax Free growth of investments
- some states give a generous income tax deduction when you contribute.
- contributor controls the money until it is released to student.... e.g. parents can claim it back / control it  /invest it.

The 10% penalty if the fund is not used and you claim the money back -- may be just a way for government to recover the tax-free growth?   So it does not make sense to put the money in there when the kid is 15 or older, unless there is also a state deduction, but if the money will accumulate for  along time, not using it for schooling and paying the penalty should be a wash versus a taxable account.

For Canadian RESP's, there is a tax on the accumulated investment income, and it is large (e.g., 20%), but you can withdraw your contributions without taxes.  The large penalty on the investment income is actually a wash (close to the same, but a simple calculation is never perfect) for taxes compared with a standard taxable investment account.

Looking forward to reading other responses on this....!


To OP, because the post secondary expenses are much closer at hand than anything else, we funded them before retirement, even though we have a very large mortgage that we will carry due to HCOL.   We are funding tuition and books fully.   They can stay at home, (with several options) or figure out a way to pay for room and board themselves.   I am helping them gain work experience now, in high school, so their options and decision making ability are broader.

SwordGuy

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2016, 02:05:04 PM »
College just is not that expensive if you have a local state one to go to within commuting distance.

Example:  State tuition and books in my state would be around $10,000 a year.    That's $40,000 for a college education, which is about $7,000 more than the median new car price.   

And that assumes they never work a single minute in their life in jr high, high school or college to help pay for it.  And never study hard enough or are too lazy to apply for scholarships or grants.  And don't participate in a sport that will fund part of their experience.

Now, a kid starting off and mowing yards in 9th grade could make $100 a week for 30 weeks.  That's $12,000 saved up for college by the time they start.
A kid working two 8 hour shifts at minimum wage each week could easily make the same amount, but they would probably have to wait until they were 16, so that's only about $6,000 instead of $12,000.

If they kept up working at the same pace during college, they could make another $48,000 in those 4 years.   That gives them a bit of spending money and a paid for college degree.

Now, a local community college might cover the first 2 years if a local university wasn't around.   That would mean that room and board costs would only be needed for 2 years instead of 4.   That could add another $20,000 to the tab, which still isn't that much money.

But let's take the worst case, no local community college or state university.

$20,000 a year for 4 years, or $80,000.
No market for hiring out for yard work as a young kid.

16 hours a week minimum wage starting in 11th grade and thru college.  $5 after-tax wage * 16 hours per week * 48 weeks a year * 6 years = $23,040.

That leaves a debt of $80,000 - $23,040 = $56,960.    That's a goodly sum, but it's also less than 2 median priced new cars.   Or less than one monster pickup truck which a veritable host of people appear to be able to afford.

It's a non-trivial amount of debt but not something that requires a lifetime of debt slavery to overcome, provided one gets a median family income out of the education and is willing to hustle for a few years.

A room-mate to share rent and expenses with (or a spouse who works AND NO KIDS) could reasonably be expected to save $500 a month in rent and utilities.  A side hustle bringing in $300 a month isn't unreasonable, either.   Those two options could mean paying off the entire loan at 6% interest in less than 5 years.

And then all that money becomes available for saving and investing afterwards.

College doesn't have to be horribly expensive.  It's just that a lot of people choose to make it that way.  They take 5 years to graduate instead of 4.  They go out of state instead of in-state.  They go out of town instead of in town.  They go private (without compensating scholarships) instead of public.   They buy new cars on their student loan money instead of bicycling or driving a beater.   They get an apartment all for themselves instead of living at home or in a shared living arrangement to cut costs.  And they never get a job until they are out of college.



ImCheap

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2016, 03:40:47 PM »
We really never saved for college for our 2 kids, we have one in college now. With the following plans, 457, 403b, 401, pension plan, 2 ira's, HSA and a couple of TD accounts that we never could get all filled we just did  not worry about it. We saved as much as we could.

Today the college kid works, lives at home, we take the tax credit and give it to the kid, could cash flow it if needed but have not the need to yet, well we kind of do i guess with livimg at home rent free, pay for car insurance, bougt a car etc.

With credits from HS, community college and living between 2 great state school it's not going to be to crazy bad. Now if they decide on the dorm life at some out of state school that's on them.

We were always honest with our  kids, they knew school cost is going to be on them. I think that made them work a little harder in HS and pick up some college credits, best deal in town, both kids have or will have a year of credits. We discourage working in HS, wanted them to enjoy that time and be active at school. They can make enough the first summer after HS to pay most it not all the first year.

By some blind luck its working out well and looking to FIRE at 55ish. Would not have changed a thing.

BTDretire

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2016, 04:11:55 PM »
 We paid to get one of ours through college about 4 years ago. She got a great job, benefits, company vehicle, big bonuses, paid phone.
After about three years, the company merged with another and everything changed. Dozens of people left the company. One fellow left and started
a competing business, 20 employees went with him.
She talked with mom, who always wanted a doctor in the family :-/ Mom agreed to pay her way through dental school.
By the time she's done it will cost $250k to $400k.
The other kid still has two years to finish.
I'm retired as of today.
Know any good dog food recipes?
Luckily we can afford it, the school not the dog food.

MrsPete

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2016, 05:14:53 PM »
So I'm interested in what everyone with kids retiring before they head to college has planned for future college costs.  I assume I'm like most people who don't think I OWE it to my children to pay for college, but WANTS to give them a good start in their independent life in this age of extreme tuition costs.  And unlike most parents who are figuring out how to juggle costs and don't quite know the effect paying for college will have on their retirements, for those that FIRE first it can be a pretty straight forward cost and decision (I have to work x longer to save y extra amount for those costs).
I don't think many kids retire before they head to college.  Sorry, couldn't help it; misplaced modifiers are funny.

We also want to provide our two kids with a college education.  One's finished, the other's a sophomore.  We have found that paying for college has been easier than expected. 

First, we set limits:  We told them we'd pay four years of basics at a state school, which we define as tuition, books, dorm and meal plan.  We also said we'd provide them with health insurance and cell phones during college.  They'd be responsible for anything beyond those basics.  Both had no trouble making a choice within those parameters; the oldest graduated on time, the second is on track to do the same.  They genuinely appreciate the opportunity being given to them, and they are working hard to honor that gift.

Things that surprised us:  Our kids chose schools that include books in tuition, so that cost disappeared.  Our oldest was in a major that required a summer school between sophomore-junior year; the classes were not taught during other semesters, and they were not allowed to take them at any other university.  That summer ended up costing us as much as a whole semester -- but no option existed within her major.  You really, really need to push your kids towards internships and work experiences; even if it means missing paid work or delaying graduation; graduating without some real-world experience is a major faux pas and will kill their chances of getting a job in their major.

Things that were different from our own college experiences:  When we were in school, few students had cars and everyone had jobs ... today it's the opposite:  All kids have cars and few kids have jobs.  Kids seem to have more spending money than we did; for example, they go out to eat all the time.  Something's wrong with that, and we were glad that our kids were already ninja-level frugal before they headed out to college. 

There are also scholarships.
Yeah, but most students won't get them.  Seriously, I've been teaching high school seniors for a long time, and the scholarships just aren't available like they once were ... even for students at the top of their classes, even for students who really work at finding /applying for scholarships.  The thing about "scholarships that go unawarded because no one applied" is a myth.  My kids both earned generous scholarships, but  that's NOT typical. I genuinely credit a part of that to my being "on the inside" and knowing the system.

Now, a kid starting off and mowing yards in 9th grade could make $100 a week for 30 weeks.  That's $12,000 saved up for college by the time they start.
A kid working two 8 hour shifts at minimum wage each week could easily make the same amount, but they would probably have to wait until they were 16, so that's only about $6,000 instead of $12,000.
That assumes that they pay no taxes and never spend a penny.  Not many students will remain motivated to work with NO immediate reward.

soccerluvof4

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2017, 05:54:46 AM »
We started 529s awhile back with the intention to pay up to a half as we wanted them to have skin in the game. The two oldest one a senior in HS received a partial athletic scholarship so the difference will be rolled down to the two younger ones. The second oldest a Junior in HS received a full athletic scholarship with a Per Diem so the entire 529 will be rolled down so the younger 2 will  now have closer to 75% and we wont have to fund anymore. Bottom line we didn't have them play sports or expect them to get scholarships BUT since we paid so much over the years in travel if/when they go off to school if they blow their scholarships then their on their own. I should not we rolled it down to the oldest of the two youngest so if he was fortunate to get a scholarship in any form we still have the opportunity to roll down again because you can not roll up. Also we never considered or used our 529 accounts in our networth so keep it blinded in our mint accounts since for us we just don't think of it as our money. Right or wrong thats how we do it. If one didn't go to college and we have to pay 10% so be it we would end up with a nice bonus check but I would rather they all go to college in some capacity.

ImCheap

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2017, 08:53:41 AM »
You really, really need to push your kids towards internships and work experiences; even if it means missing paid work or delaying graduation; graduating without some real-world experience is a major faux pas and will kill their chances of getting a job in their major.

Maybe,  been hiring engineers for a few years now and this really is way down on the list of things we look at if at all. We also have a program where one can work part time while working towards an engineering degree,  most do it in about 6 years and come out free and clear so I do see it both ways.

Been with the same firm going on 30 years and I will take just about anyone who worked their way though school doing whatever it takes, most of my hires are very proud to tell me about how they did it, most but not all had a little help as well.


Gunny

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2017, 09:24:02 AM »
We are FIREd and have a 12yo son.  He has a dream of attending Alabama and studying engineering.  We currently have enough in his 529 to fully fund 2 yrs at Bama.  Hopefully, interest on the 529 will at least keep pace in the rising cost of his future tuition.  He will attend a local community college, which has a great pre-engineering program, for his first two years.  We will cash flow that and he will be required to cover half of that funding.  I want him to have the experience of having to work pay for some part of his education.  It will be more precious to him. 

nancyjnelson

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2017, 12:55:26 PM »
I paid my first child's tuition, room and board out of my salary, living frugally to do so.  Two months after she graduated I took early retirement, sold my house in a HCOL area and moved to a small midwestern town.  My second (and last) child is now a freshman at the state university.  I had pre-paid for 8 semesters of tuition several years earlier in my previous state's (Virginia's) university system, and since she was attending a non-Virginia university we were reimbursed the $$ we had put in, plus a small amount.  This money completely covers the tuition at her current university.  (Yes, if I had invested it wisely I could possibly had more funds available, but "wisely" is the key word.  I put a very small amount into a USAA 529 fund for her ten years ago, and it is now worth only 10% of the original amount.  I'm glad I went the pre-paid route.)

My daughter also had a job since 11th grade, works 15 hrs/week during the school year and has a full-time job lined up for the summer. She uses her money for maintenance (books, clothing, supplies, etc) and is saving up for a junior year abroad program.  I cover housing and give her a stipend for food.

FWIW, scholarships are not as easy to come by as many seem to believe, even with the grades, the AP courses, the volunteering, the competitive dance, and a compelling background story.

What really surprised me was that even though my taxable income was only about $45k, my daughter didn't qualify for work study.

IMHO, the financial side of the U.S. higher education system is not only screwed up, but immoral.


MrsPete

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2017, 05:42:30 PM »
Maybe,  been hiring engineers for a few years now and this really is way down on the list of things we look at if at all.
Maybe it varies by major, but my oldest was told (by the person who hired her for her current job) that her resume was chosen for an interview specifically because of two part-time jobs she held during college.  The interviewer told her that most of the people who had applied had no actual work experience in the field. 

FWIW, scholarships are not as easy to come by as many seem to believe, even with the grades, the AP courses, the volunteering, the competitive dance, and a compelling background story.
Yes, it's something we hear rather constantly on this board:  Just have them apply for scholarships! It won't work for the majority -- I know loads of kids who've finished high school with straight As in advanced classes, who applied for everything and received nothing. 

The kid who is MOST LIKELY to get a really good scholarship is a kid of a minority race with serious financial need who has good grades, who has been heavily involved in 1-2 school or community activities and who has held leadership positions in those activities.  Well-rounded trumps perfect grades, community service of some sort is a necessity, and advanced classes trump general-level classes.  Oh, and the student has to write well. 

The thing about "compelling backstory" comes into it too.  I remember one of my students from years ago who was a finalist for a MAJOR scholarship ... and lost it in the last round.  At that level, every kid was very deserving, but someone had to win, and the kid who beat him out was a refugee from -- oh, I forget where, but he'd really been through hell -- and had achieved academically anyway.  I remember how upset my student was, and he said something to the effect of, "I gave it everything I had, but in the end I'm the son of an American doctor and an American business owner.  I know I've lived a blessed life.  When it comes to scholarships, my story just can't compete with that of a kid who fought tooth and nail to come to America." 
« Last Edit: January 01, 2017, 05:49:49 PM by MrsPete »

I'm a red panda

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2017, 06:03:49 PM »
I put a very small amount into a USAA 529 fund for her ten years ago, and it is now worth only 10% of the original amount.  I'm glad I went the pre-paid route.)

Woah- can you talk a bit more about this fund? I haven't ever heard anyone say they've lost 90% of their principle in a 529- that's insanely bad... I know 529s aren't guaranteed, but it seems most grow a bit over time.

Prepaid isn't an option in our state, so I'm wondering if we should just skip "college fund" and just go with general investments.

daymare

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2017, 07:51:02 PM »
I don't currently have a kid, and certainly do think that the entire education landscape will be changed by the time I may have college-age kids, so I haven't quite thought through what I'd like to do.  However, my parents paid for my entire college education (and yes, food which included eating out plenty), and I am incredibly grateful, as opposed to now being spoiled and spendy.  I think the notion that paying for kids' college will produce crappy/entitled adults is ridiculous - it's all about how you raise them in the 18 years before they attend college that will determine how they will perceive that wonderful advantage.

I also want to clear up some preconceptions about 529 plans - they can be a great option, especially if you're able to front-load the accounts when the kids are young, allowing for compounding of growth.  There are great products such as the Fidelity NH Unique 529, and the Vanguard Utah 529 which are low-cost and have a glide path (the allocation changes as the kids get closer to college and have a shorter horizon - so, heavy on stocks when there are 15+ years before funds will be accessed, with gradually more bonds until the allocation has low expected volatility in the years right before school starts).

Also, this 10% penalty only applies to the growth in a 529 account - you can take out the money you put in without any penalty (though any distributions are done on a pro rata basis, that is with the same proportion of principal/earnings as are in the account).  Also (and I agree that many have wildly inaccurate perceptions about how common scholarships are - definitely less common if you're attending a top school even as a top student) - if your kid gets a scholarship, you can withdraw money up to the amount of the tax-free scholarship without paying a 10% penalty.

Gunny

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2017, 06:39:47 AM »
We are FIREd and have a 12yo son.  He has a dream of attending Alabama and studying engineering.  We currently have enough in his 529 to fully fund 2 yrs at Bama.  Hopefully, interest on the 529 will at least keep pace in the rising cost of his future tuition.  He will attend a local community college, which has a great pre-engineering program, for his first two years.  We will cash flow that and he will be required to cover half of that funding.  I want him to have the experience of having to work pay for some part of his education.  It will be more precious to him.

This discussion prompted me to review our college funding for our son.  I'm happy to say that in today's dollars, we have enough funds in son's 529 to fully fund the two years at community college and two years at Alabama.  I'm glad I opened and funded that USAA 529 the day after son was born.  The pressure is off now to try and find scholarships.  However, I told son that what he doesn't spend out of his 529 for college is his after he graduates college. If he doesn't graduate, dad gets a new bass boat 😉 So there is an incentive to try for scholarships and work while attending college. 

ETBen

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2017, 07:37:58 AM »
This is a good discussion, can anyone weigh in on my situation?  Short question: would you sacrifice a year of retirement savings (still max the 401k) to dump money into 1 year of college savings?

I am slightly ahead on my retirement savings timeline, continue to max out my 401k, and then have at least $2500 per month to put into my own retirement investments and/or college savings.  My budget is generous, these figures don't have me living off rice and water. 


I have 2 boys in grade school.  Their father has already done the prepaid tuition for 2 years of university each.  As others have said, I'm fine with saying this is what we have saved, you make up the difference if you want out of state, private, etc. 

I have options: Prepaid Uni, Prepaid Community College, or 529.

A) 529 fund only.  All of the calculators come out to the same amounts the prepaid plan estimates, though.

B) Combo: I'm thinking do a lump sum 1 year pre-paid Uni each child.  Let them save for the 529 for the 4th year (we don't have a lot of family to contribute to it).  It would be 11,500 lump sum each kid for that one year.   


If I save up over this year, that's 9 months (down to 6 if I use my bonus).  But then that's no extra retirement beyond the 401k for most of the year. 

ImCheap

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2017, 08:10:36 AM »
This is a good discussion, can anyone weigh in on my situation?  Short question: would you sacrifice a year of retirement savings (still max the 401k) to dump money into 1 year of college savings?



Sure......but.......

I would be sure I filled up all our  taxed advantaged space first, iRA's, work accounts, maybe some ibonds, every one should have some taxable then the 529 would be my order.

My cloudy  crystal ball says 20 years from now college may look different!

ETBen

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2017, 08:16:43 AM »
This is a good discussion, can anyone weigh in on my situation?  Short question: would you sacrifice a year of retirement savings (still max the 401k) to dump money into 1 year of college savings?



Sure......but.......

I would be sure I filled up all our  taxed advantaged space first, iRA's, work accounts, maybe some ibonds, every one should have some taxable then the 529 would be my order.

My cloudy  crystal ball says 20 years from now college may look different!

That unknown drives me crazy. Bc it's not just the unknown of the investment returns, but the whole education system!  My general retirement plan is 401k, backdoor roth, HSA, taxable accts. College savings CA is after the 401k, Roth, hsa but before taxable.

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2017, 08:20:12 AM »
We are FIREd and have a 12yo son.  He has a dream of attending Alabama and studying engineering.  We currently have enough in his 529 to fully fund 2 yrs at Bama.  Hopefully, interest on the 529 will at least keep pace in the rising cost of his future tuition.  He will attend a local community college, which has a great pre-engineering program, for his first two years.  We will cash flow that and he will be required to cover half of that funding.  I want him to have the experience of having to work pay for some part of his education.  It will be more precious to him.

This discussion prompted me to review our college funding for our son.  I'm happy to say that in today's dollars, we have enough funds in son's 529 to fully fund the two years at community college and two years at Alabama.  I'm glad I opened and funded that USAA 529 the day after son was born.  The pressure is off now to try and find scholarships.  However, I told son that what he doesn't spend out of his 529 for college is his after he graduates college. If he doesn't graduate, dad gets a new bass boat So there is an incentive to try for scholarships and work while attending college.

You want to be sure you are spending as much of the 529 money on education as you can, regardless if he works while attending. If you want him to contribute, have him reimburse you for 529 withdrawals to avoid the 10% penalty.


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money beard

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2017, 08:42:09 AM »
My kids are 3 months and 34 months.  Before Thing 1 was born, we started planning 529 investments.  All the "calculators" showed that even reasonable public universities would cost approximately $50,000.00 per year by the early/mid-2030s when my kids will be going to college.  Based on that, we tried to sock away $500/month, because with compounding and an aggressive investment portfolio, thats around what you would need to do for 18 years to get a couple hundred grand in the 529.

I'm rethinking this plan a lot now that Thing 2 is here.  Not because I don't intend to pay for their education, I do.  But, there are so many variables in the equation with education.  Will it continue its astronomical increase in cost?  Will some public option be introduced?  Doing 500/month for each of the two kids is a lot, and I'll end up with half a million dollars tied up in a 529 that I may pay taxes, 10% penalty, etc. if they don't use it. 

So my plan has changed.  We're trying to put 250-300 a month in each of their funds every month.  Which sucks, because its a lot of cash that isn't going into my early retirement column, but it should end up with around 100,000 for each of them for college.  We'll deal with other expenses when we get there.  My thought is, I won't have too much in the 529s, but I'm still getting some of the benefit of tax free growth and the state income tax deduction I get.  The extra cash I would have thought about putting in there is going into my taxable investing account, that way if I end up needing it for college expenses it is there.

That's what we are doing. 

ETBen

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2017, 08:53:38 AM »
Moneybeard, that's a good point. If mine already have 2 years prepaid, that's half the battle.  I could put a moderate amount in a 529 and the rest in my taxable accounts for retirement. Deal with the system's current state when it gets here.

I think that's the big question. What's the magic balance to be prepared but also flexible to whatever the needs will be?

Poundwise

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2017, 08:56:40 AM »
Posting to follow; also interested in seeing what people think of the following advice from Time Money:
http://time.com/money/2802164/saving-for-college-vs-retirement/

Quote
If you live in one of the states—or the District of Columbia—that offers a tax break: (see chart)

    Save in your 401(k) up to your employer match.
    Pay off high-interest debt.
    Build up six-month emergency reserve.
    Save in a 529 college savings plan up to at least one-third of your expected college costs.
    Put money in a Roth IRA (if you qualify), since this money can be used penalty free for college besides retirement

If your state doesn’t offer any tax benefit:

    Save in your 401(k) up to your employer match.
    Pay off high-interest debt.
    Build up six-month emergency reserve.
    Put money in a Roth IRA (if you qualify)
    Save in a 529 college savings plan.

kayvent

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2017, 09:09:58 AM »
College is much less a concern of mine than what the us does with healthcare. Ive said in many different places on this forum that I don't personally believe there will be college the same way we have today in 19-20 years. Look at the Kahn academy. College was invented as a need to get knowledge in one place to research and grow more knowledge. Now we have a central place most everyone can access in their pocket in all first world countries. It's the internet.

:( I hope that happens but credentialism seems to be ever growing.

And that assumes they never work a single minute in their life in jr high, high school or college to help pay for it.  And never study hard enough or are too lazy to apply for scholarships or grants.  And don't participate in a sport that will fund part of their experience.

Now, a kid starting off and mowing yards in 9th grade could make $100 a week for 30 weeks.  That's $12,000 saved up for college by the time they start.
A kid working two 8 hour shifts at minimum wage each week could easily make the same amount, but they would probably have to wait until they were 16, so that's only about $6,000 instead of $12,000.

I'm iffy about kids working in high school. I'll just name some of the positive benefits of a kids 'studying' for one hour a day after school versus a part-time job:

- Learn the skill of studying, which will pay dividends in university and help drastically if they do R&D in their future career.
- Have a solid foundation (knowledge) for post-secondary. A terrifying stat I occasionally see is how many students drop out of school in their first year due to poor academic performance.
- Scholarships pay much better than working. A few percentage points on a final exam in grade 11 can be thousands of dollars in scholarships.
- Again with scholarships, community work is seen as more valuable to scholarship boards than a part-time job. (I think from a character building, it is more valuable too.)
- You get to see your children more
- Perhaps do AP work and challenge credits or BI. Either of which may save them time.

Working in university is different. I think it is alright.

boarder42

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2017, 09:17:26 AM »
I worked and played varsity basketball in HS got scholarships that covered almost all of my college and worked internships in my field every summer.  Getting a job especially something entrepreneurial like mowing lawns likely teaches much more valuable life lessons than studying.

marion10

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2017, 09:23:51 AM »
Both my children had their degrees paid for by their parents. They are very appreciative. To give them a start without being burdened by student loans is a great gift. They both got significant merit scholarships at mid tier schools. We paid between 20-30 thousand for each year. We saved enough for about two years for each in 529s- I worked part time for many years and switched to full time when youngest was in high school- the difference in salary went straight to tuition. There was also a big cashing out of saving bonds to het number 2 through his last year. We told them we would pay for 4 years dependent on academic progress. They also managed almost all of the college application process themselves.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2017, 02:54:21 PM by marion10 »

marion10

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2017, 09:27:01 AM »
But I did not FIRE. I am 56 and could retire now but plan to work a little longer. Also the scholarships my kids got were given to them by the school as part of their admission. They did not apply for them at all. My daughter even increased hers by showing a higher offer she got at a competing school.

rocketpj

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2017, 09:50:41 AM »
In Canada we are under the RESP system.  On birth our kids both received 'gifts' from older relatives to go towards their RESPs, which we have been adding to over the years.  It can go to either kid, and there is an added contribution from the government each year that adds to the snowball.

That said, both kids will pay a significant proportion of their tuition and costs.  Tuition isn't ridiculously insane here in Canada, though it is growing.  (My undergrad tuition was about $2500/year, though it has about tripled since then).  There are two of the top universities in the country within commuting distance, and several colleges as well.

But on the gripping hand, the older kid is well on the way to some significant sports scholarships, so that might change the math a bit.  The younger one is equally skilled but may end up on another path (I suspect engineering of some kind). 

Basically, when they start school we will help them but they will be responsible for a significant chunk of their costs.  At the end we may choose to help them pay off their loans, if they have any.

I can also get them a job working in the woods in the summer.  Hard, hard work but it paid my entire education without debt.

Goldielocks

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2017, 01:10:37 PM »
This is a good discussion, can anyone weigh in on my situation?  Short question: would you sacrifice a year of retirement savings (still max the 401k) to dump money into 1 year of college savings?

I am slightly ahead on my retirement savings timeline, continue to max out my 401k, and then have at least $2500 per month to put into my own retirement investments and/or college savings.  My budget is generous, these figures don't have me living off rice and water. 


I have 2 boys in grade school.  Their father has already done the prepaid tuition for 2 years of university each.  As others have said, I'm fine with saying this is what we have saved, you make up the difference if you want out of state, private, etc. 

I have options: Prepaid Uni, Prepaid Community College, or 529.

A) 529 fund only.  All of the calculators come out to the same amounts the prepaid plan estimates, though.

B) Combo: I'm thinking do a lump sum 1 year pre-paid Uni each child.  Let them save for the 529 for the 4th year (we don't have a lot of family to contribute to it).  It would be 11,500 lump sum each kid for that one year.   


If I save up over this year, that's 9 months (down to 6 if I use my bonus).  But then that's no extra retirement beyond the 401k for most of the year.
Keep saving to retirement fund until you have at least $500k in funds at age 65 already set and ready to go. If you are 30 years old, you money has 35 years to grow to the number, but always put your own seat belt on first.

You can pay college with income during late yeas or find other options

ETA. With 30 years to grow, if you are 35 now, that means don't divert from retirement unless yo have $100k plus saved.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 06:04:56 PM by Goldielocks »

boarder42

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2017, 01:37:04 PM »
Why are people prepaying. Invest the money even in taxable that's better

ltt

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2017, 02:23:38 PM »
My kids are 3 months and 34 months.  Before Thing 1 was born, we started planning 529 investments.  All the "calculators" showed that even reasonable public universities would cost approximately $50,000.00 per year by the early/mid-2030s when my kids will be going to college.  Based on that, we tried to sock away $500/month, because with compounding and an aggressive investment portfolio, thats around what you would need to do for 18 years to get a couple hundred grand in the 529.

I'm rethinking this plan a lot now that Thing 2 is here.  Not because I don't intend to pay for their education, I do.  But, there are so many variables in the equation with education.  Will it continue its astronomical increase in cost?  Will some public option be introduced?  Doing 500/month for each of the two kids is a lot, and I'll end up with half a million dollars tied up in a 529 that I may pay taxes, 10% penalty, etc. if they don't use it. 

So my plan has changed.  We're trying to put 250-300 a month in each of their funds every month.  Which sucks, because its a lot of cash that isn't going into my early retirement column, but it should end up with around 100,000 for each of them for college.  We'll deal with other expenses when we get there.  My thought is, I won't have too much in the 529s, but I'm still getting some of the benefit of tax free growth and the state income tax deduction I get.  The extra cash I would have thought about putting in there is going into my taxable investing account, that way if I end up needing it for college expenses it is there.

That's what we are doing.

Yes, we also were very reluctant to put money into an investment for our children that we couldn't get to right away and so we didn't  Do I have any regrets?  No.  We put aside money for them (and still are), but our names are on the account.  That way if they weren't ready for college and wanted to work instead, the money could be put towards a down payment on a home.  Some kids simply want to be gainfully employed.  Our culture has pushed college to no end when, in the end, college isn't for everyone.  Parents really do not know how things will turn out from the time a child is born until around two decades later. 

I don't think college can continue to be a financial drain for parents.  I just think it's unrealistic and eventually "the bubble" has to pop.  The debt load for kids is just not sustainable.  A friend of ours, whose child went to a community college followed by a state college, was telling us that her child had $70k in college debt.  I do believe the child now makes a little more than $20k.  It's just not manageable.

ImCheap

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2017, 04:30:17 PM »
Our culture has pushed college to no end when, in the end, college isn't for everyone.  Parents really do not know how things will turn out from the time a child is born until around two decades later. 

I don't think college can continue to be a financial drain for parents.  I just think it's unrealistic and eventually "the bubble" has to pop.  The debt load for kids is just not sustainable.  A friend of ours, whose child went to a community college followed by a state college, was telling us that her child had $70k in college debt.  I do believe the child now makes a little more than $20k.  It's just not manageable.

This is so true, it almost a double whammy going on too, the kids are so being pushed to goto college but for only certain  majors, at least the feeling I get and see a fair bit. I work in the electrical engineering field and the lack of EE's is becomming an issue, something to the the tune of people with 25-30 of experence are 50% of the people in my field while the 5-10 people make up about 10% . The old guys are starting to retire now and help is becomming an issue.

 The trades are in worst shape from what I see. The trade schools are looked down on around here, somehow they are less equal. Try to find a good skilled electrican,  its not easy.

C-note

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2017, 05:00:30 PM »
Our culture has pushed college to no end when, in the end, college isn't for everyone.  Parents really do not know how things will turn out from the time a child is born until around two decades later. 

I don't think college can continue to be a financial drain for parents.  I just think it's unrealistic and eventually "the bubble" has to pop.  The debt load for kids is just not sustainable.  A friend of ours, whose child went to a community college followed by a state college, was telling us that her child had $70k in college debt.  I do believe the child now makes a little more than $20k.  It's just not manageable.

This is so true, it almost a double whammy going on too, the kids are so being pushed to goto college but for only certain  majors, at least the feeling I get and see a fair bit. I work in the electrical engineering field and the lack of EE's is becomming an issue, something to the the tune of people with 25-30 of experence are 50% of the people in my field while the 5-10 people make up about 10% . The old guys are starting to retire now and help is becomming an issue.

 The trades are in worst shape from what I see. The trade schools are looked down on around here, somehow they are less equal. Try to find a good skilled electrican,  its not easy.

As a school district, we've recognized the need for more vocational training for high schoolers which is leading us to expand our programs to include culinary arts, construction, educational paraprofessionals, HVAC, and electrician.  We already offer mechanic including diesel and early childcare provider.  We partner with a local community college to offer even more opportunities for our high schoolers including EMT training.  It's been fascinating to watch the change in parents from "my kid's going to college" to "my kid needs to learn a skill".  I think the talk of student loan debt has many parents accepting a vocational education instead of a 4-year degree - especially if their kid isn't a stellar student.  Don't get me wrong - we still have a significant number of kids heading to college but now, many of them have 24-36 college credits under their belts before they ever step foot on a university campus.     

SwordGuy

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2017, 06:22:20 PM »
Now, a kid starting off and mowing yards in 9th grade could make $100 a week for 30 weeks.  That's $12,000 saved up for college by the time they start.
A kid working two 8 hour shifts at minimum wage each week could easily make the same amount, but they would probably have to wait until they were 16, so that's only about $6,000 instead of $12,000.
That assumes that they pay no taxes and never spend a penny.  Not many students will remain motivated to work with NO immediate reward.

Not true.

For mowing yards, it assumes they mow additional yards and spend that money.   The going professional rate in my low cost of living city is $50 to $60 for a yard.   A kid can easily mow 4 yards a day, so if they can only get 1/2 the going rate, they can cover their $100 a week on Saturday morning.   That leaves them Saturday afternoon, all day Sunday, or afternoons after school to mow additional yards.

For a minimum wage job, note that the minimum wage is $7.25 and I only assumed that $6.25 was going towards college.   Any additional spending could come from working additional hours after school or during the summer.

Really, I didn't set the bar very high for the kids.

Realistically, if a kid has been paying attention in school all along and doing their work all along, most new classes won't be that hard for most kids.  There is a lot of repetition in the US K-12 curricula.   Someone who was really motivated could handle 30 hours a week.   That would be a chunk more money. 

And there are more ways to make money than just minimum wage service jobs or mowing yards.     

I think that parents steal something important from their children by not requiring them learn to work while they are in school.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2017, 06:24:27 PM by SwordGuy »

SwordGuy

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2017, 06:48:58 PM »
And that assumes they never work a single minute in their life in jr high, high school or college to help pay for it.  And never study hard enough or are too lazy to apply for scholarships or grants.  And don't participate in a sport that will fund part of their experience.

Now, a kid starting off and mowing yards in 9th grade could make $100 a week for 30 weeks.  That's $12,000 saved up for college by the time they start.
A kid working two 8 hour shifts at minimum wage each week could easily make the same amount, but they would probably have to wait until they were 16, so that's only about $6,000 instead of $12,000.

I'm iffy about kids working in high school. I'll just name some of the positive benefits of a kids 'studying' for one hour a day after school versus a part-time job:


All of the benefits that you mention are great.   

Two 8 hours shifts could be done on Saturday and Sunday.  Or they could work for several hours in the late afternoon/early evening and then study for an hour before or after they work.

Kids have more energy than adults.  This isn't an onerous burden on them.

It also has the virtue of teaching them all the benefits you mentioned PLUS the value of good time planning and time management.

retired?

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2017, 07:41:44 PM »
I've saved enough, in 529's, to just about cover the total cost for in-state schools.  My plan, given we live in a state that has a few solid options, is to let them choose but that they'd have to cover the difference.  i.e. if the school the really want to attend is out-of-state or private, the diff is up to them via loans.

If we lived in a state without any decent universities (there are some), then our thinking would be different.

The penalty for not using proceeds on education is 10% plus income tax on the earnings only.  Also, and to me this is a big factor that made me think 529s were flexible enough, you can change the beneficiary (to a future grandchild, for example), or use for grad school.

Unless your child decides not to attend college or drops out, it is hard to imagine not using up all the funds. 

This site is good:

http://www.savingforcollege.com/questions-answers/article.php?article_id=21

kayvent

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2017, 08:17:14 PM »
That said, both kids will pay a significant proportion of their tuition and costs.  Tuition isn't ridiculously insane here in Canada, though it is growing.  (My undergrad tuition was about $2500/year, though it has about tripled since then).  There are two of the top universities in the country within commuting distance, and several colleges as well.

Ignoring the ever fluctuating currency exchange rate and COL, our Canadian schooling cost isn't much better than our neighbours. Last I looked up our numbers, the average student loan borrower in Canada owes 25K and in the USA it wasn't yet over 30K.

As an anecdote, in my last three years I had 25K in scholarships, worked, got thousands of dollars in bursaries, and still had 34K in student loans. In Canada.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2017, 08:21:16 PM by kayvent »

Gen Y Finance Journey

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2017, 09:21:53 AM »
If you live in a state that doesn't offer a tax incentive for contributing to a 529, is there any reason to contribute to one before you've maxed out 401(k), HSA, and IRA? My income is too high for a tIRA, so Roth is my only option for an IRA -- in which case, there's nothing a 529 offers that a Roth IRA doesn't, so I should only contribute to a 529 once my IRA is fully funded, yes?

I'm a red panda

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2017, 09:26:32 AM »
If you live in a state that doesn't offer a tax incentive for contributing to a 529, is there any reason to contribute to one before you've maxed out 401(k), HSA, and IRA? My income is too high for a tIRA, so Roth is my only option for an IRA -- in which case, there's nothing a 529 offers that a Roth IRA doesn't, so I should only contribute to a 529 once my IRA is fully funded, yes?

Seems like it.

But, shouldn't, even in a tax-incentivized state, only contribute after the 401k is maxed? Because doesn't 401k reduce federal and state tax liability, and 529 would only reduce tax liability?  (Asking to make sure I'm not misunderstanding my own plan!)

Paul der Krake

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2017, 09:38:42 AM »
If you live in a state that doesn't offer a tax incentive for contributing to a 529, is there any reason to contribute to one before you've maxed out 401(k), HSA, and IRA? My income is too high for a tIRA, so Roth is my only option for an IRA -- in which case, there's nothing a 529 offers that a Roth IRA doesn't, so I should only contribute to a 529 once my IRA is fully funded, yes?

Seems like it.

But, shouldn't, even in a tax-incentivized state, only contribute after the 401k is maxed? Because doesn't 401k reduce federal and state tax liability, and 529 would only reduce tax liability?  (Asking to make sure I'm not misunderstanding my own plan!)
Yes. Moreover, 529s should be something you dump some leftover money into regularly, but not a primary focus. The tax code, in its great wisdom, reflects this in giving 529s far lesser tax advantages than retirement vehicles. Your own retirement is much more important than your kids' college fund.

Everyone wants to think that their kids are going to be academically awesome and want the best for them, but there is no certainty of that. They may do poorly academically. They may want to pursue other things. You, on the other hand, WILL get old.

Do not be the parents featured on CNBC's sob story segment who sacrificed to send their average kids to an expensive school and eat rice & beans in retirement.

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2017, 09:57:29 AM »
Why are people prepaying. Invest the money even in taxable that's better

I pre-paid because it seemed to cut down on the variables (I know how many years tuition is covered no matter the changes to the costs) and the investment time horizon is not really that great except for money put in at their birth or when they are extremely young.  This seemed like a somewhat guaranteed decent return rate given it effectively increases at the rate of tuition, which has been quite high over the past 10 years that i've been doing it at least.

Pigeon

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #47 on: January 03, 2017, 12:22:33 PM »
Our deal is that we will pay for four years room, board and tuition at a state school or the equivalent.  If they go someplace more expensive, they need to figure that out with loans or scholarships.  There is very little merit aid in our state system. 

We live in a state where there's a state tax break for 529s.  We've saved about half the cost that way, and the rest we saved in taxable accounts or are cash flowing.   

boarder42

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #48 on: January 03, 2017, 12:30:13 PM »
Why are people prepaying. Invest the money even in taxable that's better

I pre-paid because it seemed to cut down on the variables (I know how many years tuition is covered no matter the changes to the costs) and the investment time horizon is not really that great except for money put in at their birth or when they are extremely young.  This seemed like a somewhat guaranteed decent return rate given it effectively increases at the rate of tuition, which has been quite high over the past 10 years that i've been doing it at least.

so youre also betting they will want to go to college etc. i cant see the rise in tuition outperforming VTSAX over 18 years either but to each their own i guess.

little_brown_dog

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Re: Kids' College Costs
« Reply #49 on: January 03, 2017, 12:36:14 PM »
I put this on a similar thread in the mini m board but...

We decided on 5k/yr/child for 17yrs, provided our income stays at current levels or increases. We plan on having 3 kids (only one so far!), so that's a max total investment of 15k/yr. We have no plans to increase this amount even as our income rises - any excess money will continue to funnel towards retirement, paying off our mortgage, etc. Whatever they have in 17yrs is what they have...if it can pay for everything at a reasonable school, that is awesome. If not, loans and scholarships are an option, or we might consider filling the gap depending on our financial situation and preferences at the time.  This is less stressful to me than trying to anticipate college costs and education policy.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 12:39:09 PM by little_brown_dog »