Author Topic: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study  (Read 5423 times)

RWD

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Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« on: July 29, 2021, 09:16:48 AM »
Kia was the highest ranked non-luxury brand in JD Power's 2021 US Vehicle Dependability Study (measuring problems with 2018 model-year vehicles).
https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2021-us-vehicle-dependability-study-vds

Sister brands Hyundai and Genesis also ranked very well. If you hadn't considered a Korean car before because of their reputation for poor reliability its time to change your mindset. The new vehicles being developed on the E-GMP platform (e.g. Kia EV6, Hyundai Ioniq 5) are also looking to be some of the most competitive EVs on the market. Its very impressive how far they've come in the last decade.

GodlessCommie

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2021, 09:39:59 AM »
Get ready for Chinese to do to Koreans what Koreans did to Japanese what Japanese did to...

jrhampt

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2021, 09:46:25 AM »
That's great news!  I had been debating a Hyundai Ioniq vs a Toyota Prius hybrid or plug in hybrid but was kind of leaning Toyota based on reliability.  The Ioniq has a slight edge in terms of mpg/range, so I will feel free to go Hyundai :-)

SunnyDays

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2021, 10:36:08 AM »
Interesting.  I'm a die hard Toyota fan, but currently have a Kia Forte while my Matrix is in the shop, and it's a nice little car, but I cannot get comfortable in the driver's seat for the life of me.  Pillow here, neck cushion there, and it's still not working.  That alone would put me off buying one.

Mr. Green

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2021, 10:53:46 AM »
We have now owned 5 Hyundais since 2003. Their engineering is just stellar. When we were shopping around for a new car last summer I was very disappointed in Toyota's offerings, given their reputation. Perhaps their vehicles still function well but they seem to have lost a lot of the little touches that make you feel like you're sitting in a quality vehicle.

ChickenStash

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2021, 11:36:13 AM »
Poor Land Rover, they just can't catch a break.

RyanAtTanagra

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2021, 12:06:30 PM »
If you hadn't considered a Korean car before because of their reputation for poor reliability its time to change your mindset.

How many 20+yo 300k+ mileage Kias and Hyundais are on the road?  I don't really get the reliability claims without the history to prove it yet.

uniwelder

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2021, 12:09:01 PM »
It’s the number of problems per 100 vehicles that are 3 years old? So if you owned a 2018 vehicle, you’d likely have some issue with it by now or possibly a couple issues?  How serious does the problem have to be to get noted? Anything that gets reported by the manufacturer warranty?

frugalnacho

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2021, 12:34:51 PM »
How can you possibly rate the dependability of cars only 3 years old?

My dad had a Kia Rio which has an interference engine, and the timing belt broke leading to catastrophic engine failure.  It was covered under warranty, but Kia's response was basically "fuck you".  When we kept pressing them they said it was his fault because the timing belt needs to be changed as per the user manual, and he didn't change it at the recommended interval so it was his fault and was not covered under warranty, but they would gladly replace the engine for like $8k or something.  When I photocopied his user manual maintenance schedule which definitely did not say it needed to be changed, they sent back an updated manual that had been changed to say it does need to be changed.  We had to go back and forth about 5 times with me sending pictures and scans of his actual user manual before they finally admitted it was changed in subsequent manuals - but they still weren't going to honor the warranty because...well they just didn't want to.  Then we got the BBB involved, which was a joke and led nowhere. Then we got kia corporate involved, which again led nowhere.  They said they weren't going to honor the warranty because he probably didn't follow all the other recommended maintenance like changing the oil at regular intervals.  Turns out he was actually super anal about doing oil changes on his baby and changed it every 2,500-3,000 miles and documented the date and mileage and kept receipts for all the oil and filters he bought each time.  When I documented everything in a spreadsheet and scanned everything and sent it to them they still said they weren't going to honor the warranty, basically just because they didn't want to.  I had to keep blasting up the chain to Kia corporate, and I they finally relented and agreed to honor the warranty, and I think it's just because I wore them down and they figured fixing it was easier than continuing to deal with me.  I spent MONTHS fighting with them on my father's behalf, and probably spent dozens of hours emailing and talking on the phone to various people trying to get a resolution. 

Because of that bad experience I will never purchase a Kia, and neither will anyone that was close to us and got to witness the drama unfold.  Every time I see a Kia or hear the name I think of the completely accurate Family Guy Kia spoof slogan: "Kia! Too bad it's a Kia."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kuCPoHl6PY

ETA: I left a whole bunch of shenanigans out of the story too.  Like the dealership trying to force my dad into paying for them just to look at the car (which I refused and wouldn't let him sign).  And after towing the inoperable car to the dealership and getting rejected for warranty work and refusing to pay to have it fixed, they told my dad the lot was getting repaved that night (obviously that was a lie) and if he didn't get his car off their property by the end of the night they were towing it themselves at great expense, and we had to call for another tow truck to then move the car off the dealership property and into the mall parking lot next door.  Every single person we dealt with at that dealership and Kia corporate was an absolute rotten cunt. 
« Last Edit: July 29, 2021, 12:41:10 PM by frugalnacho »

Paper Chaser

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2021, 12:41:27 PM »
Shhhhhh! If people actually want them then they won't depreciate heavily and they'll be worse values on the used market.

RWD

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2021, 12:44:42 PM »
It’s the number of problems per 100 vehicles that are 3 years old? So if you owned a 2018 vehicle, you’d likely have some issue with it by now or possibly a couple issues?  How serious does the problem have to be to get noted? Anything that gets reported by the manufacturer warranty?
It's problems within the last year. So a score of 100 means the average vehicle experienced one problem during their third year of ownership. There could have been additional problems in the first two years of ownership (JD Power has a separate Initial Quality Study that looks at the first 90 days of ownership, basically useless).

From the article: "the study covers 177 specific problems grouped into eight major vehicle categories: audio/communication/entertainment/navigation (ACEN); engine/transmission; exterior; interior; features/controls/displays (FCD); driving experience; heating, ventilation and air conditioning; and seats."

I don't think there is any weighting as to severity of problem. So one failure of the audio system is counted just as much as one failure of the transmission, for example. I believe it counts whether or not it was under warranty.

RWD

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2021, 12:49:21 PM »
This actually wasn't the first year that Kia beat Toyota in this particular study (though it is the first time they have been the highest ranked non-luxury brand). Both Kia and Hyundai edged out Toyota in the 2018 study (2015 model-year vehicles):
https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2018-us-vehicle-dependability-study

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2021, 01:55:40 PM »
Sorry, I won't buy a vehicle from a company whose name is an acronym for "Killed In Action".

MilesTeg

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2021, 03:45:37 PM »
Kia was the highest ranked non-luxury brand in JD Power's 2021 US Vehicle Dependability Study (measuring problems with 2018 model-year vehicles).
https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2021-us-vehicle-dependability-study-vds

Sister brands Hyundai and Genesis also ranked very well. If you hadn't considered a Korean car before because of their reputation for poor reliability its time to change your mindset. The new vehicles being developed on the E-GMP platform (e.g. Kia EV6, Hyundai Ioniq 5) are also looking to be some of the most competitive EVs on the market. Its very impressive how far they've come in the last decade.

I'm really surprised to see some of the brands at the bottom like Honda, and also surprised to see all the luxury brands that have floated to the top. Luxury = more complexity which usually results in more problems. Especially with lots of electronic gadgets and the like which seem to be included in this analysis.

What I'd really like to see is a histogram of individual failure types by brand. Not to pick on Kia, but it could be that Kia makes poorer quality drive trains but has really stellar tech boffins making solid nav/entertainment units.

AccidentialMustache

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2021, 06:31:56 PM »
I'm really surprised to see some of the brands at the bottom like Honda, and also surprised to see all the luxury brands that have floated to the top. Luxury = more complexity which usually results in more problems. Especially with lots of electronic gadgets and the like which seem to be included in this analysis.

12 years: Drive shaft recall. Traction control failed just out of warranty (but got covered by the regional manager). Valve recall. Takata airbag recall #1. Takata airbag recall #2. Water infiltration around the windshield. Nav unit dvd drive died. Parking brake grip/cover won't stay in place. Driver's door armrest cracked. Rust starting in various odd, hard-to-reach places.

That's our 2009 Honda Fit. Just sayin'. I could believe a lower ranking on Honda.

scottish

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2021, 07:42:41 PM »
I'm really surprised to see some of the brands at the bottom like Honda, and also surprised to see all the luxury brands that have floated to the top. Luxury = more complexity which usually results in more problems. Especially with lots of electronic gadgets and the like which seem to be included in this analysis.

12 years: Drive shaft recall. Traction control failed just out of warranty (but got covered by the regional manager). Valve recall. Takata airbag recall #1. Takata airbag recall #2. Water infiltration around the windshield. Nav unit dvd drive died. Parking brake grip/cover won't stay in place. Driver's door armrest cracked. Rust starting in various odd, hard-to-reach places.

That's our 2009 Honda Fit. Just sayin'. I could believe a lower ranking on Honda.

Just curious, are you in the rust belt?

AccidentialMustache

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2021, 12:09:37 AM »
If you mean the midwest industrial rust belt, no.

If you mean the midwest snow and salt belt, yes.

I mean I know why the car wants to rust. I'm less clear on the prevention side when a lot of it is coming from steel-plastic boundaries. Not exactly easy to clean...

2sk22

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2021, 03:35:32 AM »

How many 20+yo 300k+ mileage Kias and Hyundais are on the road?  I don't really get the reliability claims without the history to prove it yet.

Exactly - initial quality (which is what JD Power measures) is not the same as durability or reliability.

soccerluvof4

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2021, 03:51:38 AM »
Well I like Kia and have one as well as 2 Toyotas the one thing hopefully Kia has worked on is in a lot of large cities because there the easiest to steal its become quite a big problem. Milwaukee , Chicago and others report them being the vehicle of choice to be stolen for joyrides and not for being sold. My Son recently had his Kia Soul stolen and a couple hours later another Kia in the same locked lot with cameras was stolen. Police department told him they cant keep up and gave him a free bar lock which wont do much but fortunately they found it though trashed in less than a half a day.

nereo

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2021, 04:12:41 AM »

How many 20+yo 300k+ mileage Kias and Hyundais are on the road?  I don't really get the reliability claims without the history to prove it yet.

Exactly - initial quality (which is what JD Power measures) is not the same as durability or reliability.

It’s problems in the first 3 years of that model class, measured per 100 vehicles.

Regardless, it’s a great start for those cars. Why would you want to be higher (i.e. more problems) on the list? We’ll see over the next few years how they hold up as the long-distance commuters rack up miles.

tipster350

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2021, 07:35:38 AM »
If you hadn't considered a Korean car before because of their reputation for poor reliability its time to change your mindset.

How many 20+yo 300k+ mileage Kias and Hyundais are on the road?  I don't really get the reliability claims without the history to prove it yet.

I don't have a 20-year story, but I bought a new Kia Soul with a 10-year warranty in 2012. At the time a new Kia Soul was cheaper than used Toyotas and was scoring higher on reliability. I have not had a single issue so far. I have only spent for regular maintenance. It has been the cheapest to buy and maintain with the highest reliability of any car I have owned.

Channel-Z

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2021, 07:39:57 AM »
I drive a Kia Soul, which I bought over the winter. It's a fine little car, no frills really. I can step in and out of it more easily than a sedan. Most of all, it was cheap. It went under recall four months after I bought it, but passed inspection.

dcheesi

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2021, 07:51:22 AM »
If you hadn't considered a Korean car before because of their reputation for poor reliability its time to change your mindset.

How many 20+yo 300k+ mileage Kias and Hyundais are on the road?  I don't really get the reliability claims without the history to prove it yet.

I don't have a 20-year story, but I bought a new Kia Soul with a 10-year warranty in 2012. At the time a new Kia Soul was cheaper than used Toyotas and was scoring higher on reliability. I have not had a single issue so far. I have only spent for regular maintenance. It has been the cheapest to buy and maintain with the highest reliability of any car I have owned.
IIRC, Consumer Reports is now rating the Soul fairly low in reliability. Not sure how their rankings match up with JD Power, but also I think it might be a recent change on the CR side?

RWD

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2021, 07:55:39 AM »

How many 20+yo 300k+ mileage Kias and Hyundais are on the road?  I don't really get the reliability claims without the history to prove it yet.

Exactly - initial quality (which is what JD Power measures) is not the same as durability or reliability.

This is a separate study from the IQS (first 90 days). This one is problems in the third year of ownership (2018 model-year vehicles in this case) which is a much better indicator of longer term reliability. That is still pretty early in the vehicle's life so its difficult to extrapolate to say 10+ years, but I think for the consumer that is buying new cars and keeping them ~5 years an indicator of how each brand is doing at the 3 year mark is pretty useful. Also, as JD Power has been doing this study for decades it is useful to see improvement trends over time, both for individual manufacturers and the industry as a whole.

HPstache

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2021, 08:02:21 AM »
I'd say that I am most surprised that Buick & Cadillac are so high and equally surprised that Honda is so low.  I also did not know that Genesis is now a Make, not a Model.

GodlessCommie

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2021, 08:16:54 AM »
Just as a tiny data point, a rented a Kia recently - it once shut down after I unplugged my phone.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2021, 11:39:08 AM »
DW and I recently test drove a brand-new Toyota Sienna.  We were....less than impressed.  It felt like the car was designed by art students, rather than engineers and parents.  Lots of swoopy and aggressive lines, but uncomfortable seats (really!?), loss of practicality (e.g. you can no longer remove the 2nd row seats, or the ginormous, non-removable center console), and terrible ergonomics (you can't turn off the giant tablet screen).  I wanted to like it, really.  Hybrid Japanese minivan?  Yes, please!  But it's just not for us.

Bateaux

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2021, 12:21:52 PM »
Kia Soul may be my FIRE car.  I'll look for a used one when the car market returns to normal.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2021, 01:17:39 PM »
Big Toyota fanboy here. There's a reason they're the only manufacturer unfazed by the global shortage of semiconductors. Their manufacturing process is often copied and rarely matched.

We can bicker all day about the methodology of this or that study, who is truly #1 or #2, but the fact remains that Hyundai has been pumping very reliable cars for a few years and that's good for everybody.

Reliability = good, competition = good. Thumbs up all around.


Paper Chaser

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2021, 06:02:28 PM »
DW and I recently test drove a brand-new Toyota Sienna.  We were....less than impressed.  It felt like the car was designed by art students, rather than engineers and parents.  Lots of swoopy and aggressive lines, but uncomfortable seats (really!?), loss of practicality (e.g. you can no longer remove the 2nd row seats, or the ginormous, non-removable center console), and terrible ergonomics (you can't turn off the giant tablet screen).  I wanted to like it, really.  Hybrid Japanese minivan?  Yes, please!  But it's just not for us.

The Kia Carnival seems pretty nice from initial reviews. Might be worth trying.

nalor511

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2021, 06:23:39 PM »
Just as a tiny data point, a rented a Kia recently - it once shut down after I unplugged my phone.

How could you remove it's power source?!

Panly

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2021, 05:53:32 AM »

what the heck happened to Honda?


mrsnamemustache

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2021, 05:56:23 AM »
If you hadn't considered a Korean car before because of their reputation for poor reliability its time to change your mindset.

How many 20+yo 300k+ mileage Kias and Hyundais are on the road?  I don't really get the reliability claims without the history to prove it yet.

I don't have a 20-year story, but I bought a new Kia Soul with a 10-year warranty in 2012. At the time a new Kia Soul was cheaper than used Toyotas and was scoring higher on reliability. I have not had a single issue so far. I have only spent for regular maintenance. It has been the cheapest to buy and maintain with the highest reliability of any car I have owned.

Same story for me!

Tinker

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2021, 06:22:16 AM »

How many 20+yo 300k+ mileage Kias and Hyundais are on the road?  I don't really get the reliability claims without the history to prove it yet.

Exactly - initial quality (which is what JD Power measures) is not the same as durability or reliability.

It’s problems in the first 3 years of that model class, measured per 100 vehicles.

Regardless, it’s a great start for those cars. Why would you want to be higher (i.e. more problems) on the list? We’ll see over the next few years how they hold up as the long-distance commuters rack up miles.

Silly measure.

If every car had its engine implode in the third year, the lack of further problems in that year would put a manufacturer right near the top of the crop.

NorCal

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2021, 06:57:47 AM »
I'll fully believe Kia & Hyandai have improved their quality over time.  They've been working hard on it, and it's clearly been a priority for the companies.  I also think they'll be the most competitive EV's on the market in the lower price ranges.

It is a bit tricky to extrapolate longevity from 3 year data though.

When you look at failures/repairs, there are typically a large number of repairs very early in a products life due to manufacturing defects, very few defects in the middle of a products life, and lots of failures as the parts reach replacement age.  Having improved on manufacturing defects does not necessarily imply that they are using components with improved longevity.  Maybe (hopefully) it does, but it's not a conclusion you can make without thoroughly understanding the components they're using.

ender

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2021, 07:09:55 AM »
I wish studies like this were more meaningful.

For example, I care much more about the average dollar value of repair as well as the impact. You could have 10 repairs on this list and be considerably "more reliable" than a car with 100 even if those 10 repairs all involve transmission replacements while the 100 are minor.

Over a cars lifetime, which matters more? Quantity of repairs or dollar cost and also impact - aka "you can't drive for a week" vs "ok, guess this is annoying and I'll replace it when I get a chance" types of repairs?

I'd take a car with 10x as many trivial problems over one with many fewer but more significant ones.

RWD

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2021, 08:36:41 AM »
I wish studies like this were more meaningful.

For example, I care much more about the average dollar value of repair as well as the impact. You could have 10 repairs on this list and be considerably "more reliable" than a car with 100 even if those 10 repairs all involve transmission replacements while the 100 are minor.

Over a cars lifetime, which matters more? Quantity of repairs or dollar cost and also impact - aka "you can't drive for a week" vs "ok, guess this is annoying and I'll replace it when I get a chance" types of repairs?

I'd take a car with 10x as many trivial problems over one with many fewer but more significant ones.

I agree. Would be nice to see additional data regarding severity of problems (how much it affects driveability and safety), monetary cost (what it would have been once out of warranty), and number of days in the shop (loss of use).

GodlessCommie

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2021, 12:10:26 PM »
How could you remove it's power source?!

I'm not sure if the question is in jest or not, but all I did was to unplug the USB cord from the phone that I was using for Google Maps via Apple Car Play. The engine stopped, all the screens/indicators shut down. I had to turn the key back to off, then start the car again (it started w/o incident). Fringe accident for sure, but bizarre nonetheless.


dragoncar

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2021, 05:50:24 AM »

what the heck happened to Honda?

I was first surprised because I have a 2-decate old honda, but then I remembered in the first few years I had several recalls, fuel injector replacement, backlight on radio go bad.  This was all fixed under warranty and everything has been great since then (also had to replace the stop light switch once and the capacitor for the cabin fan once, also one ignition coil pack, but all that was after the first decade so I figure anything goes). 

Initial quality doesn't mean much to me when everything is covered under warranty and I have the time and good experience with the dealer

Still, I'm learning towards toyota for the next car.  Wife loves suburu for some unknown reason but she isn't the one monitoring her leaking head gaskets

Stupid me bought an extended warranty through my credit union and everything early on was covered by warranty and everything later on was outside the extended warranty. Total waste of money.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2021, 05:52:00 AM by dragoncar »

scottish

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2021, 09:02:30 AM »
I've been pretty happy with Toyota quality.   I have an 04 Tacoma and the engine and transmission run like it's still new.    Parts have been wearing out for a few years - ball joints, rear shocks, water pump, catalytic converter, heated O2 sensor, muffler and so on.    But this is normal and would have happened much earlier with another brand, at least based on my experience with GM and Nissan.

Also, Toyota put a new frame in it for free 8 years ago when the original one was rusting.    I'd like to see another manufacturer stand behind their vehicle this way!

The only thing I don't like is the ergonomics aren't quite right for me.   It seems to be designed for someone with shorter legs (the Japanese stereotype?).   If I have the seat adjusted to reach the steering comfortably, my legs are folded up a bit.   Or if I have it right for my legs, I have to reach for the steering wheel. 

RWD

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #40 on: August 01, 2021, 09:26:38 AM »
Stupid me bought an extended warranty through my credit union and everything early on was covered by warranty and everything later on was outside the extended warranty. Total waste of money.
Salesperson: "Here we have our super reliable nothing every breaks car! You'll have no problems whatsoever."
Finance Manager: "DON'T YOU WANT TO PROTECT YOUR INVESTMENT!!?"

Gone Fishing

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #41 on: August 01, 2021, 10:05:16 AM »
Does anyone conduct a 15 year reliability study?  Even if they did, I guess it wouldn't be worth much as the old models wouldn't necesarily reflect those rolling off the line.  Oh well, I'll stick with the one that has the best track record.

RyanAtTanagra

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #42 on: August 01, 2021, 10:37:47 AM »
Does anyone conduct a 15 year reliability study?

That's what I'd like to see, and the one I think would be more relevant, at least to me.  My last car I took to 280k miles.  The one before that to 260k.  They were both still running great when I sold them, I just upgraded or didn't need them anymore.  We currently have a Prius at 220k with no signs of dying yet.  I just haven't seen any data that makes me trust a Kia or Hyundai can do the same, because that data doesn't exist (yet?).  I don't know if anyone will bother with that study, because very few people (dozens, maybe!) are buying new cars with an eye on the 300k mile mark.

RWD

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #43 on: August 01, 2021, 11:01:54 AM »
Does anyone conduct a 15 year reliability study?

That's what I'd like to see, and the one I think would be more relevant, at least to me.  My last car I took to 280k miles.  The one before that to 260k.  They were both still running great when I sold them, I just upgraded or didn't need them anymore.  We currently have a Prius at 220k with no signs of dying yet.  I just haven't seen any data that makes me trust a Kia or Hyundai can do the same, because that data doesn't exist (yet?).  I don't know if anyone will bother with that study, because very few people (dozens, maybe!) are buying new cars with an eye on the 300k mile mark.

Dashboard Light is probably one of the better options for older vehicles. Not on a per-brand basis (as the comparison chart aggregates all years and models), but if you select an individual model you can see the breakdown of each individual model year and other data.

Example, Honda Civic with data going back to the 1992 model year:
http://www.dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Honda_Civic.html

They get their data from issues with trade-in vehicles with a focus on powertrain issues.
http://www.dashboard-light.com/how-we-figure-out-the-score/

RyanAtTanagra

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2021, 11:10:26 AM »
Does anyone conduct a 15 year reliability study?

That's what I'd like to see, and the one I think would be more relevant, at least to me.  My last car I took to 280k miles.  The one before that to 260k.  They were both still running great when I sold them, I just upgraded or didn't need them anymore.  We currently have a Prius at 220k with no signs of dying yet.  I just haven't seen any data that makes me trust a Kia or Hyundai can do the same, because that data doesn't exist (yet?).  I don't know if anyone will bother with that study, because very few people (dozens, maybe!) are buying new cars with an eye on the 300k mile mark.

Dashboard Light is probably one of the better options for older vehicles.

Oh nice, lots of data there.  The highest Kia model is the Soul, with a pretty low rating.  Limited data since the model only goes back to 2010.  Interestingly, the 2010-2013 model years have a higher rating than the 2014-2019s.

dragoncar

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #45 on: August 01, 2021, 02:21:25 PM »
Stupid me bought an extended warranty through my credit union and everything early on was covered by warranty and everything later on was outside the extended warranty. Total waste of money.
Salesperson: "Here we have our super reliable nothing every breaks car! You'll have no problems whatsoever."
Finance Manager: "DON'T YOU WANT TO PROTECT YOUR INVESTMENT!!?"

Well yeah but like I said it was the credit union who pushed that so it’s not really inconsistent.  I’m sure the dealer offered it too but I don’t really remember because I knew going into that to be super resistant to upsells. 

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #46 on: August 01, 2021, 03:13:01 PM »
How could you remove it's power source?!

I'm not sure if the question is in jest or not, but all I did was to unplug the USB cord from the phone that I was using for Google Maps via Apple Car Play. The engine stopped, all the screens/indicators shut down. I had to turn the key back to off, then start the car again (it started w/o incident). Fringe accident for sure, but bizarre nonetheless.

Completely in jest :)

FireKingGreen

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #47 on: August 01, 2021, 09:12:35 PM »
Kia was the highest ranked non-luxury brand in JD Power's 2021 US Vehicle Dependability Study (measuring problems with 2018 model-year vehicles).
https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2021-us-vehicle-dependability-study-vds

Sister brands Hyundai and Genesis also ranked very well. If you hadn't considered a Korean car before because of their reputation for poor reliability its time to change your mindset. The new vehicles being developed on the E-GMP platform (e.g. Kia EV6, Hyundai Ioniq 5) are also looking to be some of the most competitive EVs on the market. Its very impressive how far they've come in the last decade.

I'm really surprised to see some of the brands at the bottom like Honda, and also surprised to see all the luxury brands that have floated to the top. Luxury = more complexity which usually results in more problems. Especially with lots of electronic gadgets and the like which seem to be included in this analysis.

What I'd really like to see is a histogram of individual failure types by brand. Not to pick on Kia, but it could be that Kia makes poorer quality drive trains but has really stellar tech boffins making solid nav/entertainment units.

I’m not. I have a 14yo Toyota, purchased brand new when my H and I were dating, that has essentially needed only the suggested maintenance. He has a 7yo Honda Accord that has had multiple problems, including battery and ignition issues, almost since the beginning. This may be our first and last Honda, but I will buy another Toyota whenever I need to replace my current one.

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #48 on: August 01, 2021, 09:59:34 PM »
I dont agree with the JD power analysis. It is based on a short period of years - from 0 to 3.  And what Mustacian in their right mind would buy a new car. Toyotas have reliability that stands up after 20years of use and in my case well over 300k miles - I would pay a bit extra and buy a 10 year old Toyota anyday.
New Kias seem to have a lot of plastic crap on the engine - kind of like Audi and BMW that will degrade over a period of a decade. JD power just cant assess that.

dragoncar

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Re: Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study
« Reply #49 on: August 01, 2021, 11:50:41 PM »
I dont agree with the JD power analysis. It is based on a short period of years - from 0 to 3.  And what Mustacian in their right mind would buy a new car. Toyotas have reliability that stands up after 20years of use and in my case well over 300k miles - I would pay a bit extra and buy a 10 year old Toyota anyday.
New Kias seem to have a lot of plastic crap on the engine - kind of like Audi and BMW that will degrade over a period of a decade. JD power just cant assess that.

There’s a premium on used cars right now, or at least very recently

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!