Author Topic: Just joined the forum  (Read 4326 times)

ejh

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Just joined the forum
« on: July 04, 2016, 05:12:00 PM »
Hi Everyone,

I've been reading the MMM blog for a month or two but I'm new to the forum.
So where do I start? I have a ton of things I want to say and ask!

I guess I'll start with some personal info.
I'm 31, married + 2 little girls (a 2 yr. old and a 1 yr. old), I work as a software engineer at a great company.
Bought an apartment 1.5 years ago and the mortgage is our only debt.
I think our financial situation is overall positive, but I'm never really sure - I always have this nag that we're not on track.
Some months seem a breeze while others suddenly get really tight.

I have a natural tendency to badassity and never really spent too much on stuff. When I was younger it was out of fear of not having any money, but today I understand how owning less stuff has a huge affect on life. Anyway, I managed to save up a pretty neat amount by my mid 20s. Mom and Dad gave me their '96 Honda Civic (still getting me around!), I got a full scholarship for college + extra cash while living with my parents, my salary climbed up year-over-year and now I'm making enough to support our family on one income. We managed to buy a great new apartment in a relatively upscale neighborhood we love (our parents helped, but we payed a large chunk of the down payment).

So what gives? Well a few things trouble me.
Like I said, I have a tendency and mindset of spending less. Cutting expenses is important to me, and as such it's usually not such a burden. I constantly look for areas where I can cut costs. My wife on the other hand - she grew up differently and thinks/feels pretty much the opposite. Over the years we've learned from each other, but stuff that has to do with spending less is many times attributed to something negative in her eyes (we can't afford it, I'm cheap, saving for later means suffering now, etc.). Truthfully, she does the effort and doesn't buy as much as she'd like, but now and again she'll get upset that "we never get anything or go out to eat". Her family are quite the spenders as well, which obviously doesn't help. I mean, her mom has spent thousands dollars on toys and clothes for our girls - and the older one is only 2! Maybe even more! When I manage to save money I see that as strength - she sees weakness.

Following that, lately our single income, high as it may be, isn't enough for our spending and growing our wealth. This worries me. I see many ways we can cut spending and I'm implementing some of the stuff I learned on MMM. It's easy when it's just my domain (like biking to work), it's much harder when both of us need to put in the effort.

So how should I go about convincing my wife to be a Mustachian and a happy one too?
How should I really asses our financial situation?


Well, that came out quite long for my intro.



TomTX

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Re: Just joined the forum
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2016, 05:35:03 PM »
Hi, and welcome to the forum! This topic has been discussed numerous times - start digging! :D

Yaeger

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Re: Just joined the forum
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2016, 05:39:55 PM »
Welcome to the forums and thank you for posting!

Are you and your wife on the same page in regards to establishing the same financial goals, and the method for achieving them? I'd recommend the following:

1) coming up with a comprehensive budget and expense sheet to accurately determine your current financial position (this will lay the groundwork for the next two steps)
2) realistically hash out both of your long-term goals for yourselves and the kids
3) come up with a workable plan to meet those goals (build investment portfolio, debt prioritization, timeline, etc)
4) adjust your expenses and savings rates slowly, acclimate yourself and your family slowly to the plan
5) reevaluate periodically

Lots of good stuff here, take advantage of it.

For the money-side of things, I frequently use Bogleheads wiki and forums: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Outline_of_financial_planning

Choices

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Re: Just joined the forum
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2016, 08:36:57 PM »
Welcome to the forums and thank you for posting!

Are you and your wife on the same page in regards to establishing the same financial goals, and the method for achieving them? I'd recommend the following:

1) coming up with a comprehensive budget and expense sheet to accurately determine your current financial position (this will lay the groundwork for the next two steps)
2) realistically hash out both of your long-term goals for yourselves and the kids
3) come up with a workable plan to meet those goals (build investment portfolio, debt prioritization, timeline, etc)
4) adjust your expenses and savings rates slowly, acclimate yourself and your family slowly to the plan
5) reevaluate periodically

Lots of good stuff here, take advantage of it.

For the money-side of things, I frequently use Bogleheads wiki and forums: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Outline_of_financial_planning
+1
Your wife will never be on board if you don't agree on long-term goals. Does she want you to work less and spend more time with the family? Does she want to travel more? Does she want to continue to stay home, or would she rather go back to work to pay for a more consumerist life now? Find out what she values and THEN go back to budgeting.

EnjoyIt

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Re: Just joined the forum
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2016, 11:48:12 PM »
ejh,
Welcome to the forums.  I completely agree with setting your goals together.  You two will need to come to some agreement on your goals.  One of the most common reasons for arguments and then divorce is finances.  This needs to be figured out ASAP otherwise she will resent you from forcing her not to spending money, and/or you will resent her for spending too  much money. 

I have a relative whose spouse's goal was to have her husband work and pick up lots of overtime so that she can buy a bunch of useless crap.  Lucky they got divorced before having any kids. 

Although my wife and I were always relatively frugal, at some point I found my way to this forum and began to evaluate what I want out of life, what makes me happy, and how to achieve it.  At first my wife was really skeptical, but after multiple little discussions, and slowly educating her on our finances, we were able to come to a common goal which turns out to be very similar once we both realized what we want from our lives.  Hopefully you and your wife can do the same.

happy

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Re: Just joined the forum
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2016, 02:50:19 AM »
Hi ejh and welcome
There is this sticky on the spousal issue:http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/how-to-convert-your-so-to-mmm-in-50-awesome-steps/.
There are also many many threads.

LateToTheParty

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Re: Just joined the forum
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2016, 06:37:26 AM »
Welcome. I'm new here too, and learning a lot. I can relate to your situation - going thru the same process with DH.   Best wishes for goal alignment.

powersuitrecall

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Re: Just joined the forum
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2016, 07:11:22 AM »
Hi ejh and welcome
There is this sticky on the spousal issue:http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/how-to-convert-your-so-to-mmm-in-50-awesome-steps/.
There are also many many threads.

I'll second the post linked above.  It's simply great.

About twice a year I do this corny "WE CAN FIRE" presentation with charts and graphs and other stuff.  It's a great way to ensure that DW and I are both are on the same page.

Also, Welcome!  Don't worry about asking questions that you think may have already been talked about.  There are always people willing to help!

ejh

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Re: Just joined the forum
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2016, 08:19:49 AM »
Thanks all for your replies, I will look at previous threads and suggestions.

Although we haven't specifically sat down and set concrete goals, we have talked many times about what we both want.
And we also budget regularly and have categories for broad goals.
I think that for the most part we are in agreement. I don't feel that the problem is goal setting, it's how to accomplish those goals.
It's as if I can't seem to convey the need to spend less in order to reach our goals AND have her full heartedly agree.

I feel that I always need to prove this method works.
I need to show that if we don't buy lots of stuff or change our cable plan, we can take vacations and enjoy going out - otherwise what's the point of cutting back.
And if we don't go out - which we don't very much - then saving is annoying.
I feel the need to show her that our situation is better then others, even though it's not on display.
And If we don't end up retiring with enough wealth - oh boy!

I need to "deliver".

In my opinion, we do buy too much stuff and still we do manage to go on vacation and pay down debt.
We just made an extra mortgage payment of over $22,000 - this is 1.5 years since we took the loan.
That's a HUGE deal for me.
Not sure how much it is for her as it's not something that changes our day-to-day life.
She said it's great, but it's not something I feel motivates her.

So I think there are a few issues.

  • Her family has a very luxurious lifestyle. Her father has a successful business and they really like glitzy stuff.
    I won't lie - it's really fun and nice to go out to eat a lot, to go on vacations, to have a large nice house, to have nice and fashionable clothing.
    It's extremely convenient to get everything you need, when you need it without researching or looking for a better price.
    This is how she grew up. I don't actually know what their finances are like or how stable they are, but from the side it's very impressive.
    What's more is that even if she understands her parents have no savings, they are still living a great life.

  • Even if goals and strategies are aligned, it's as if she is lacking tools on how to cut costs.
    A budget for me shows me my options and I love to see my options grow as I save.
    For her, it shows limitations, and she hates to see everything limited.
    I've tried to explain some stuff which comes natural to me, most didn't stick.
    Lately I've been trying to just change my behavior in hope that it will rub off without sounding like a preacher.
    Someone once told me "A boss pushes, but a leader pulls".

  • Since I don't spend (pretty much anything), when we talk about it, she feels attacked.
    We talk about cutting spending, so that means we're talking about her alone.
    She does the groceries. She's at home with the kids, so utility bills are her doing.
    She buys clothing for the kids, so that's her doing. She orders the occasional pizza in order to take a break from the kitchen.
    These are all expenses.
    I on the other hand demand that we save - to invest, for home improvements, for big ticket items, for emergencies.
    So in her eyes, talking about spending less and saving more amounts to saying she is bad and I am good (she hasn't actually said this, but I'm almost positive she would fully agree with that last sentence).


I'd be happy to hear more from all of you.

patchyfacialhair

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Re: Just joined the forum
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2016, 09:01:49 AM »
EJH: My in-laws sound like your in-laws. Business owner...lots of income, but lots of spending. Their net worth is their home equity, minus a couple small debts. Sad for someone who has made over six-figs annually for decades. However, they travel a ton, eat out a ton, and do new things quite often. It makes my wife envious.

Lately she's been mentioning that we should "buy a house." The issue is that she has expensive tastes and keeps looking at $350,000 loaded 3,500 sqft mcmansions (at least, I think that qualifies as mcmansion). She sees how much we save monthly (about $2500 outside retirement and HSA), and doesn't connect the dots that we're able to save that much because we have relatively low expenses.

I try to discuss our finances in terms of different levers:
One is for money to retirement
One is for spending/bills
One is for short term savings/goals
One is for income

Last weekend, we were nosy and stopped by a house priced at $350k. I showed her how the payment including insurance and tax would be more than double what we pay for rent, not including maintenance. I said "sure we can afford it, but what levers will we have to pull down to be as comfortable as we currently are? Retirement? Not an option for me. Short term savings? Oh you really like travelling and doing the fun things we like to do? Guess we're not changing that. Income? We have both discussed changing careers to less financially rewarding ones, so if anything we should probably look for homes that would be affordable on reduced salaries. So we have to think about it differently. Either we save for a few years to make a fatter down payment to reduce the monthly, or we look for a cheaper house. I'm not being an a-hole, I'm just trying to look at it logically." So far, it has worked; she's been in a good mood, and she realizes that we currently have an amazing life, free from nearly any pressures of health or finances at the moment. To change that would sour the "blessing" of a home.

Hopefully you can frame the discussion away from "saving money just to save it" and help her connect the dots between "savings=security/flexibility."

EnjoyIt

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Re: Just joined the forum
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2016, 11:44:41 AM »
ejh,

I think you and your wife are great candidates for spreadsheets.  Create speed sheets for everything including one for retirement projections.  You also need to have spreadsheets for goals and progress.  If all one sees is a budget then there is little incentive.  But if someone sees progress regularly in reaching those goals then you have incentive to keep pushing for the goal line.

For example, the closer I see myself getting to "my number" the harder I want to push to get there.  I want it sooner, I spend a little less and save little more.  Like MMM said "A millionaire is made $10 at a time."

You brought it up, and I agree.  Live by example.  If you want your wife to eat healthy, then you need to eat healthy.  If you want your wife to clip coupons, look at sales, and decrease spending, then you need to do it first. 
Lead by example.

ejh

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Re: Just joined the forum
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2016, 02:17:20 AM »
patchyfacialhair - Thanks for your reply.
I think the dots are connected in the sense that it's understood that saving is the method to achieve goals - not the goal itself.
It's still difficult to connect, on a daily basis, to the fact that the goals are realized in the future, or in the event of something unexpected happening.
It makes her feel shackled down now. In her words - she wants to feel free when she wants or needs to buy something.
I should stress that she doesn't mean she wants to feel free to buy expensive or fancy things - those things she will think twice about.
She means she feels shackled even when buying groceries or toiletries.
In my opinion she's just not working right. She's cutting back on small stuff instead of looking for big wins. I see why that can be draining.
However, I get upset because I never heard her say "If I wouldn't have bought X, I could now buy Y". It's always "If we didn't always need to think twice, I could buy Y freely"

EnjoyIt - spreadsheets sound like a great idea! Having a "burndown chart" where we can actually see how we're closing in on our goals. Where can I find some good spreadsheets to start with?
Just this morning we had an argument and I mentioned to her that I think one of our problems is her feeling that she needs to cut back "for me". Everything we cut back on is so I can save more.
I told her that we need to create goals that we both work toward, each making the best effort to get there. It's something above both of us.
Charts can help us visualize that.

Thanks again.

Hvillian

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Re: Just joined the forum
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2016, 12:59:16 PM »

[ . . . ]
Since I don't spend (pretty much anything), when we talk about it, she feels attacked.
We talk about cutting spending, so that means we're talking about her alone.
She does the groceries. She's at home with the kids, so utility bills are her doing.
She buys clothing for the kids, so that's her doing. She orders the occasional pizza in order to take a break from the kitchen.
These are all expenses.
I on the other hand demand that we save - to invest, for home improvements, for big ticket items, for emergencies.
So in her eyes, talking about spending less and saving more amounts to saying she is bad and I am good (she hasn't actually said this, but I'm almost positive she would fully agree with that last sentence).

I'd be happy to hear more from all of you.

My wife and I have pretty much the same dynamic, and have been battling his for several years since the kids started eating up more of our monthly income.  Some recent success with a compromise strategy:
1.  We worked together to come up with a budget for the stuff she primarily is in charge of buying, and gave her more control / responsibility for that spending
2.  I set more realistic budget goals for some of the kid stuff, food, etc.  (read: slightly higher budget to give a little buffer).

I'll let you know in 3-12 months if the dynamic improves.

EnjoyIt

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Re: Just joined the forum
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2016, 01:10:48 AM »
patchyfacialhair - Thanks for your reply.
I think the dots are connected in the sense that it's understood that saving is the method to achieve goals - not the goal itself.
It's still difficult to connect, on a daily basis, to the fact that the goals are realized in the future, or in the event of something unexpected happening.
It makes her feel shackled down now. In her words - she wants to feel free when she wants or needs to buy something.
I should stress that she doesn't mean she wants to feel free to buy expensive or fancy things - those things she will think twice about.
She means she feels shackled even when buying groceries or toiletries.
In my opinion she's just not working right. She's cutting back on small stuff instead of looking for big wins. I see why that can be draining.
However, I get upset because I never heard her say "If I wouldn't have bought X, I could now buy Y". It's always "If we didn't always need to think twice, I could buy Y freely"

EnjoyIt - spreadsheets sound like a great idea! Having a "burndown chart" where we can actually see how we're closing in on our goals. Where can I find some good spreadsheets to start with?
Just this morning we had an argument and I mentioned to her that I think one of our problems is her feeling that she needs to cut back "for me". Everything we cut back on is so I can save more.
I told her that we need to create goals that we both work toward, each making the best effort to get there. It's something above both of us.
Charts can help us visualize that.

Thanks again.

All of my spreadsheets were hand made for whatever I needed to accomplish and show.
start off with a goal of lets say you need $X dollars in Y years
Then put together a spreadsheet that will do compound interest for you allowing you to change the variables easily
This will give you a place to start on your savings.  I like to use a return of 5%

Next create a budget spreadsheet to make sure you have allocated the correct amount of dollars every month to meet your goal. Not only will this help you realize if you are on track, it will also help keep the both of you in line with your goals. Having an actual budget for things will make it easier for both of you to fine tune your spending and savings. 

This is just a start because circumstances will change and will require adjustments.  But actually watching seeing all the variables change as you adjust certain numbers make the decisions a lot easier.

Good luck

MatthewK

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Re: Just joined the forum
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2016, 06:12:16 AM »
Great discussion. I am also new to the forum but have been embracing MMM philosophy and reading blog for about a year now. I also have somewhat same problem with my wife and her family. Not to hi jack thread but another problem I have is finding like minded individuals in my area. Family, friends, neighbors etc. are all stuck in the consumer cycle while I have pretty much opted out. I sometimes feel like I have become "that weirdo" and sometimes question my ways as well. This forum seems to be about the only place I can find people to relate to. I have checked for local meetups the the closest ones tend to be > hour away. And with having 3 young kid's that's not usually an option to get away for conversation and a few beer.  Thanks for hearing me out, and thank you forum for existing!

ejh

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Re: Just joined the forum
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2016, 01:33:57 AM »
Hvillian - good luck with that I hope things get smoother for the both of you.
We've also been using a budget (we use YNAB) pretty much since we got married about 4 years ago.
Back then, I quickly noticed how our different attitudes towards money required getting stuff in order.
We really stuck to it for about 2 years, even though we had regular (loud) arguments - every monthly budget talk my wife would say she hates it and how we never have any money.
But at the end of they day, that consistency allowed us to save enough to buy an apartment, go on a few vacations, prepare for 2 kids and stay out of debt.
Most of our friends can't even dream about those things.
After the kids were born (now 2 and 1 yrs old), things got a bit out of hand because of the stress and exhaustion that came with raising them.
We recently started to get back on track, but I still hear the same stuff from her.
Ideally, I'd like us to be on the same page, but if not, I've learnt to compromise some and demand some as well.
I also made a point during spring break to take a week off and enjoy every day outdoors together. We didn't go to any malls, any shopping, no TV, no fancy hotel.
The kids had an amazing time. Most of our friends and family just let the time pass instead of making an effort and doing stuff.
I still feel the positive affects of that week on our family.
My wife and I both want to have more of those experiences, so I try to leverage that in order to convince her stop buying stuff with no value.
It's a constant effort I need to make, and it's not easy. I don't expect her to change for good, but I think periodic stuff like that will have lasting effects.

MatthewK - I can relate as well. We live in a neighborhood with many many young families, each with many kids.
We love it, but you can imagine what happens when one kid has a new toy.
The next day, my mother-in-law will already have purchased one or two for our kids.
Also, money isn't really something that most people talk about - other than mentioning how expensive everything is.
Although I do mention in some chats how I think 90% of the stuff we buy is unnecessary, I definitely don't feel comfortable taking the conversation further.
The apartment building is new, so most of us moved in around the same time.
I remember how all the new home-owners were buying furniture, installing fixtures, etc.
I couldn't understand how people could afford all that especially since most of our savings went towards purchasing the apartment.
It's been 1.5 years now and we still have many things we need to get for our home.
This bothers my wife as well as she feels stuck while everyone else is getting ahead.
Sometimes I just want one of the spenders to get into some financial trouble in order for my wife to see how resourceful we are with no debt (other than the mortgage), with a very healthy payment history, with savings, with her being able to not work (she wants to focus on raising the kids), with being able to pay extra mortgage payments and shave off a decade of the loan.
I know I shouldn't, and I quickly try to get those thoughts out of my head, but boy would that have some impact.
Bottom line, I think you need to find areas which you can display as success in being frugal. Wear it as a badge. It's all about perception. It's hard I know.
For instance, I really take to fixing stuff on my own instead of calling a technician. That's something my wife finds special, like I'm some hero.
On the other hand, while I find having less stuff as ideal, I usually come out as "cheap" because the perception is that we can't afford it, instead of something positive.