Author Topic: Just found out my dad's IRA is in a mutual fund with a 5.75% front load fee  (Read 12262 times)

frugalnacho

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I was checking out my dad's investment and his IRA is in a mutual fund that has a 5.75% front load fee.  I was mildly angry when I discovered this.  What a slimy investment adviser he has.  I think he will be severing the relationship in the near future and moving his IRA over to vanguard.  At least that's what i'm advising him to do.

MrMoneyPinch

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Meh.  The fee has already been taken, so that's a sunk cost and getting out will not change that.  A complaint to the regulator may or may not satisfy your need to punish the adviser, but he gets yearly commissions even if you sell or transfer the units to another brokerage.

Your dad may stop putting more money in the pile and start buying low- or no-load right now, that's a good move.

The decision of getting out of that investment is entirely dependant on it's performance.  Does it do close to a comparable index fund?  He may want to move it to a low-cost brokerage and let it grow for a while before jumping out.  If it outperforms (very unlikely), stay in.  If it cannot follow (like 80% of active funds), then decide when to sell and do it.

Before selling, make sure the funds are not also back-loaded (extract a fee on selling).  This is different than the advisor taking a commission on selling.  In that case, figure an exit strategy that minimizes the fees incurred:  it may mean timing sales, transferring into another fund from the same company THEN selling, and/or moving to another broker who charges less.

Cathy

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Upon reading the OP, my first thought was: "A 5.75 front-load fee%!? That should be criminal!"

Then I was reminded of two of my favourite Supreme Court of Canada cases, and thought "maybe this front-load fee actually would be criminal in Canada" ;-). Both cases are from the same piece of litigation involving one Mr. Garland.

Between 1983 and 1995, Gordon Garland was a customer of The Consumers’ Gas Company Limited, an Ontario gas utility company. On several occasions, Mr. Garland failed to pay his utility bill on time and was charged a late fee. In total, between 1983 and 1995, he was charged a grand total of $75 in late fees.

Unimpressed with these late fees, Mr. Garland did what any reasonable person would do and commenced a lawsuit rooted in a theory of unjust enrichment, arguing that the late fee amounted to a criminal rate of interest contrary to s 347 of the Criminal Code, RSC 1985, c C-46, which statute makes it a criminal offense to charge or collect a rate of interest above 60%.

The theory of the case was that since the collection of the late fees was criminal, equity demanded that the gas company not be permitted to retain the proceeds of its crime, and that the late fees must be repaid in restitution.

The gas company filed a motion for summary judgment on the alternative grounds that (1) they had no loan contract with Mr. Garland and the late fee was not interest, (2) the late fee was authorised by an order of the Ontario energy regulator and could not be criminal, (3) even if the late fee was criminal, the regulatory order should constitute a complete defence against a claim of unjust enrichment, and (4) the gas company was not actually enriched by the late fees because if they had not been able to charge them, they would have just raised gas prices across the board, and since there was no enrichment, the claim of unjust enrichment must fail. Mr. Garland also brought a cross-motion for summary judgment, in which he argued that the gas company had no defence and the Court should rule in his favour on the paper record.

The trial judge accepted argument (1) and found that there was no loan involved here and Mr. Garland was basically very confused to invoke his theory of a criminal rate of interest. The Ontario courts upheld that ruling.

On appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada (Garland v. Consumers' Gas Co., [1998] 3 SCR 112), the Court reversed the decision of the trial judge and held that (1) "credit" for the purpose of the Criminal Code includes a service rendered for payment, and (2) "interest" includes pretty much any kind of consideration above the cost of the service, regardless of how it is described. Based on those findings, the Court found that the $75 in late fees, when calculated as an annualised ratio of the gas prices, exceeded a 60% rate, and was therefore criminal. The Court then remanded the case to the trial judge to consider the remaining arguments on the cross-motions for summary judgment.

You can probably see the point of this protracted narrative now. If a late fee could constitute a criminal interest charge, why not a front-load fee? The provision of a mutual fund investing service could be a "service ... actually advanced or to be advanced under an agreement or arrangement" within the meaning of the statute and the Court's interpretation thereof. If the mutual fund is held for a sufficiently short period, a 5.75% front-load fee could be an arbitrarily large annualised rate, significantly above 60%. For example, if the fund is held for a month, the annualised rate would be at least 69%.

As for Mr. Garland, on remand, the trial judge accepted all of the gas company's alternative arguments and dismissed the case again. The Ontario courts again upheld the ruling. No doubt recognising the importance of these $75 in late fees, the Supreme Court agreed to hear another appeal from Mr. Garland, and in a second ruling (Garland v. Consumers' Gas Co., [2004] 1 SCR 629), the Court essentially accepted all of his arguments, finding that (1) the Ontario energy regulator did not have the jurisdiction to make orders authorising criminal activity, so the order purportedly authorising the late fee was void from the start, (2) the gas company could not rely on the order to shield itself from liability because the gas company was on notice about the possible illegality of the order because Mr. Garland had complained about it, and (3) even though the company might not technically have been enriched, restitution should be ordered anyway as a matter of public policy because "a criminal should not be permitted to keep the proceeds of his crime" (para 57).

In conclusion, the Court ruled that Mr. Garland's cross motion for summary judgment should succeed because the gas company had no defence in law, and the gas company was ordered to repay the criminal late fees.


I think this piece of litigation was just totally badass. Mr. Garland actually convinced the Supreme Court to hear two separate appeals from him based on arguments that had little to no support in the existing case law, and weren't exactly the most sympathetic arguments to start with, and which all the lower courts had found to be totally without merit. And then he won both appeals!


Of course, I have no idea what your state's laws say about criminal rates of interest. But maybe there's an argument in there. The analogy is somewhat flawed since part of the Court's reasoning was that customers had the ability to "defer payment" of the gas bill (i.e. by just not paying), which is how they found there was credit advanced. The mutual fund analogy doesn't quite work that way, but depending on the exact language of the local criminal rate of interest statute, there could be something to work with.

Ever since the ruling in Canada, people have been dreaming up a lot of arguments based on criminal rates of interest, such as to challenge bank foreign exchange fees. I don't know of any other cases that have reached the Supreme Court though.

[Note that I have summarised the Garland litigation in very broad strokes only. There are many nuances contained within the actual opinions.]
« Last Edit: March 17, 2015, 11:46:21 PM by Cathy »

frugalnacho

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Meh.  The fee has already been taken, so that's a sunk cost and getting out will not change that.  A complaint to the regulator may or may not satisfy your need to punish the adviser, but he gets yearly commissions even if you sell or transfer the units to another brokerage.

Your dad may stop putting more money in the pile and start buying low- or no-load right now, that's a good move.

The decision of getting out of that investment is entirely dependant on it's performance.  Does it do close to a comparable index fund?  He may want to move it to a low-cost brokerage and let it grow for a while before jumping out.  If it outperforms (very unlikely), stay in.  If it cannot follow (like 80% of active funds), then decide when to sell and do it.

Before selling, make sure the funds are not also back-loaded (extract a fee on selling).  This is different than the advisor taking a commission on selling.  In that case, figure an exit strategy that minimizes the fees incurred:  it may mean timing sales, transferring into another fund from the same company THEN selling, and/or moving to another broker who charges less.

It is a sunk cost.  I have no plans/hopes to recoup that money, I realize it's gone.  That's what makes me angry.

Loaded funds never out perform non-load funds over the long term that i'm aware of, and if it does it is purely luck, not because this adviser knew something that no one else in the industry did.  If he knew how to pick winning returns he probably wouldn't need to dupe naive folks into purchasing a 5.75% front loaded mutual fund.  If this fund performs better than a low cost vanguard fund over the next 10 years, well I would be surprised, but also would have no way to know ahead of time if that was going to be the case.  I am going to bet it won't be.

I'm not aware of any back end load to get out of the fund.  The incentive to move is two fold: 1. I want my dad to not get ripped off, and to pay reasonable fees to a reputable company like vanguard to invest his IRA, 2. move all the money out of the american funds so they stop making money on his IRA, because fuck those greasy cunts

rusty

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When I was a broker, 5.75% was low for an A share mutual fund. Most I remember were higher than that (7-8%).  It could have been worse. ...good luck.

frugalnacho

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Or he could have opted not to contribute to his IRA at all because he didn't feel confident and know what he was doing, which many people do.  So at least he put some money into it, and has a little bit of money now instead of simply increasing his consumer whore habits.

Vilgan

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Yeah, I found out my mother paid a 5% load to her 403b, which seemed bloody criminal. We've talked a lot about investments since then and she's moved everything to Fidelity and is much happier and more knowledgeable about everything now. A load without disclosing that "hey, this is my commission" should be illegal.

Jack

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Garland v. Consumers' Gas Co.

That is hilariously awesome! I wonder if the US has a similar law...

Another Reader

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It's not so much American Funds, it's the so-called financial advisor that sold him the loaded fund.  The advisor made the 5.75 percent commission.  Financial advisors generally are not fiduciaries and are not required to recommend what is in the client's best interest.  The standard is "suitability."  That business model is going away, as more and more people understand they don't have to pay these commissions to invest and it is not that difficult to DIY.

It will be interesting to see how American Funds adapts to the new environment.  For decades, they ran some very good funds.  They, along with the other mutual fund companies, were an early alternative to overpriced brokers, who sold stocks to individuals that could not get access to much company or stock information.  With computers and the internet, investing is much more accessible to individuals and costs have been driven down.  The retail distribution channels for the traditional mutual fund companies are drying up.

American Funds is still a big player in defined contribution workplace retirement plans with large, captive populations.  With the focus now on fees, they, along with the rest of the industry, will likely have to change.   Considering the good they did for investors over the years, I would not call this fund company names.  The company simply needs to evolve or it will lose business.  The FA selling the funds, well, that's a different story.

3okirb

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Here's the way it works for financial advisors.  There are really only 3 ways they get paid.
A shares have the front loaded 5.75% and then a lower (usually .25%) fee from that point forward.
C shares have no upfront fee, but are usually at 1% in perpetuity.
Then you have the fee based guys that charge an ongoing fee that's usually higher than the 1% to "manage" your  money.

There are other ways as well, but those are the most common. 

The thing to keep in mind is that the A shares are cheaper for clients that are looking to keep their money in the fund family (usually American funds for advisors) long term. (Trades to other funds within the fund family usually don't incur another charge)  C shares are better for the short term.

For example, in 10 years:
The A share would have been charged. 5.75% plus .25% over the 10 years = 8.25%
The A share would have been charged 1% for 10 years = 10%

In other words, you paid for the financial advisor.  Just because he put you in an A share vs a C doesn't mean that it was a "slimy" thing to do.  It might have actually been the best place for your dad given the different available options. 

frugalnacho

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I have no idea if it was disclosed or not.  For all I know it was disclosed and my dad just doesn't know any better.  He had his tax return done by H&R block and was getting a decent refund, and they urged him to contribute to an IRA.  He didn't know any better and so asked the person at H&R block for help, so they referred him to this guy at american funds.  So he just turned his refund check over and let this guy manage his money, because after all he is a professional financial planner.  Based on the amount in the fund ($11k) and my dad's fuzzy memory, this went on for like 3-4 years, and then he stopped contributing the last couple years. 

3okirb

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I also want to add that if your advisor is the fee based type, he's held to a fiduciary standard vs. a suitability standard.  One of the reasons to go with fee based if you're going the financial advisor route.  You're looking for someone that is an RIA or IAR.

frugalnacho

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Here's the way it works for financial advisors.  There are really only 3 ways they get paid.
A shares have the front loaded 5.75% and then a lower (usually .25%) fee from that point forward.
C shares have no upfront fee, but are usually at 1% in perpetuity.
Then you have the fee based guys that charge an ongoing fee that's usually higher than the 1% to "manage" your  money.

There are other ways as well, but those are the most common. 

The thing to keep in mind is that the A shares are cheaper for clients that are looking to keep their money in the fund family (usually American funds for advisors) long term. (Trades to other funds within the fund family usually don't incur another charge)  C shares are better for the short term.

For example, in 10 years:
The A share would have been charged. 5.75% plus .25% over the 10 years = 8.25%
The A share would have been charged 1% for 10 years = 10%

In other words, you paid for the financial advisor.  Just because he put you in an A share vs a C doesn't mean that it was a "slimy" thing to do.  It might have actually been the best place for your dad given the different available options.

I understand how they make their money, perhaps that is why I despise them so vehemently.  Under no scenario should my dad have been invested in A class, B class, or C class funds, long or short term  All that does is line the pockets of his financial adviser.

It was absolutely slimy. I think the financial adviser knows full well the true cost of investing in this fund and knows that it was not in my dad's best financial interest but did it anyway just to get a commission - which is super slimy.  If the adviser really didn't understand how this wasn't in my dad's best financial interest, well then he isn't very smart and has no business managing anyone's money.

dandarc

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A shares often make sense when compared to the other options for the same funds as 3okirb points out.  However, even if the fund itself has an ER of 0, you're still paying that .25% / year to cover that commission.  Compare that to say VTSAX, and you're not only paying the upfront fee, you're also coming out behind every year as well.

So accepting the sunk cost and transferring to lower cost funds is likely still the correct move.   Particularly given all of the research that actively managed funds don't out-perform index funds.

So 10 year commission costs:
A-Share: 8.25%
C-Share: 10%
VTSAX: 0.5% (0% if we're strictly using the same criteria as used for the A / C shares - even if we count the full ER against the vanguard fund, it is still an order of magnitude cheaper)

That's the problem - it is not that the advisor is steering you to the wrong choice of the options they are presenting.  It is that they aren't even presenting anything close to the best option.  Which would be just fine if the job title was "Mutual Fund Sales" and not "Financial Advisor".  The word "Advisor" implies that the individual is looking out for your best interests, when that is just simply not the case.

3okirb

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Here's the way it works for financial advisors.  There are really only 3 ways they get paid.
A shares have the front loaded 5.75% and then a lower (usually .25%) fee from that point forward.
C shares have no upfront fee, but are usually at 1% in perpetuity.
Then you have the fee based guys that charge an ongoing fee that's usually higher than the 1% to "manage" your  money.

There are other ways as well, but those are the most common. 

The thing to keep in mind is that the A shares are cheaper for clients that are looking to keep their money in the fund family (usually American funds for advisors) long term. (Trades to other funds within the fund family usually don't incur another charge)  C shares are better for the short term.

For example, in 10 years:
The A share would have been charged. 5.75% plus .25% over the 10 years = 8.25%
The A share would have been charged 1% for 10 years = 10%

In other words, you paid for the financial advisor.  Just because he put you in an A share vs a C doesn't mean that it was a "slimy" thing to do.  It might have actually been the best place for your dad given the different available options.

I understand how they make their money, perhaps that is why I despise them so vehemently.  Under no scenario should my dad have been invested in A class, B class, or C class funds, long or short term  All that does is line the pockets of his financial adviser.

It was absolutely slimy. I think the financial adviser knows full well the true cost of investing in this fund and knows that it was not in my dad's best financial interest but did it anyway just to get a commission - which is super slimy.  If the adviser really didn't understand how this wasn't in my dad's best financial interest, well then he isn't very smart and has no business managing anyone's money.

If you go to an advisor, he's not going to work for free.
1)  Pay the commission
2)  Pay the ongoing fees
3)  Pay an upfront fee for the advice and do it on your own with his help
4)  Do it yourself.

The problem is if given the choice, most people aren't going to want to spend hundreds of dollars up front for advice, so they pick one of the other options.  If it's slimy to make a profit, I guess you're right.  People work for a lot of different reasons, but very few will do it for free.

That being said, there are some that will charge a fee AND sell a commissioned mutual fund.  THAT is theft IMO.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 09:33:29 AM by 3okirb »

3okirb

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Which would be just fine if the job title was "Mutual Fund Sales" and not "Financial Advisor".  The word "Advisor" implies that the individual is looking out for your best interests, when that is just simply not the case.

Agreed.  I have no problem with it as long as he/she is up front about how they get paid.  I also have no problem with them getting paid.  The best option for the professional advice might be an A share.  It might be a C share.  It might be paying an upfront fee and be pointed to a low fee Vanguard fund.  The last option might not be the cheapest depending on the fee charged, etc.

What you shouldn't expect is to get professional advice for free.  If the dad isn't paying a fee, it would be ludicrous for the advisor to point him to a competitor.  That's like an architect coming in and drawing up the plans for free and then giving them to the guy to go to his competition.  That's a quick way to be in business for a very short period of time.

In other words, it's unfair to make an assumption that someone is "slimy" without having any facts other than knowing what class of share their dad has been put in.

frugalnacho

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If you go to an advisor, he's not going to work for free.
1)  Pay the commission
2)  Pay the ongoing fees
3)  Pay an upfront fee for the advice and do it on your own with his help
4)  Do it yourself.

The problem is if given the choice, most people aren't going to want to spend hundreds of dollars up front for advice, so they pick one of the other options.  If it's slimy to make a profit, I guess you're right.  People work for a lot of different reasons, but very few will do it for free.

I understand he isn't going to work for free.  I don't have a problem with someone making a reasonable amount of profit when they actually add value to something, but I don't feel that he is adding any value.   It seem predatory to me, and if I were in a position to offer someone a mediocre mutual fund with a front load fee I don't think I could do it.  It would feel wrong.

frugalnacho

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Which would be just fine if the job title was "Mutual Fund Sales" and not "Financial Advisor".  The word "Advisor" implies that the individual is looking out for your best interests, when that is just simply not the case.

Agreed.  I have no problem with it as long as he/she is up front about how they get paid.  I also have no problem with them getting paid.  The best option for the professional advice might be an A share.  It might be a C share.  It might be paying an upfront fee and be pointed to a low fee Vanguard fund.  The last option might not be the cheapest depending on the fee charged, etc.

What you shouldn't expect is to get professional advice for free.  If the dad isn't paying a fee, it would be ludicrous for the advisor to point him to a competitor.  That's like an architect coming in and drawing up the plans for free and then giving them to the guy to go to his competition. That's a quick way to be in business for a very short period of time.

In other words, it's unfair to make an assumption that someone is "slimy" without having any facts other than knowing what class of share their dad has been put in.

Exactly.  The architect should not give the plans away and should instead gouge the customer for as much as he can milk out of him.

I know i'm coming off strongly, but I already have a strong disposition of disliking financial advisers.  I know they still have to eat, I just don't like that they have to be parasitic to accomplish that.

HopefulMustache

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I understand how they make their money, perhaps that is why I despise them so vehemently.  Under no scenario should my dad have been invested in A class, B class, or C class funds, long or short term  All that does is line the pockets of his financial adviser.

It was absolutely slimy. I think the financial adviser knows full well the true cost of investing in this fund and knows that it was not in my dad's best financial interest but did it anyway just to get a commission - which is super slimy.  If the adviser really didn't understand how this wasn't in my dad's best financial interest, well then he isn't very smart and has no business managing anyone's money.

This is one of those things that has troubled me lately. While some "financial advisers" are likely snakes who prey on less educated folks with horrendous fees, etc, many of them are surely honest people who have studied the market and really think they can help... right?

We're all "low-fee index funds rule, managed funds never outperform them!" here, and I completely agree myself, so it's easy to think that the latter type of financial advisor either doesn't exist or is just lying to himself or herself... which is rather harsh of us, to be honest. YOUR CAREER IS A LIE, whoever you are! Sick burn.

Anyway, while it may turn out over time that factually we are correct and that this profession will thin out as it becomes less relevant, it's possible that many FAs are really well-intentioned. I also know that low-fee-index-mania is on the rise, and it's possible that 5-6+ years ago or whenever this all started (that would be well pre-MMM, as I recall) the type of investment your father was put in seemed much more "normal" or "typical" than it does to us today, and unmanaged might have seemed "risky" or "weird" to all concerned. I know 5 years ago I would probably have thought that, anyway.

All in all though I totally agree with you and wish you luck ceasing as many fee-paying activities as possible going forward.

jmusic

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Which would be just fine if the job title was "Mutual Fund Sales" and not "Financial Advisor".  The word "Advisor" implies that the individual is looking out for your best interests, when that is just simply not the case.

Agreed.  I have no problem with it as long as he/she is up front about how they get paid.  I also have no problem with them getting paid.  The best option for the professional advice might be an A share.  It might be a C share.  It might be paying an upfront fee and be pointed to a low fee Vanguard fund.  The last option might not be the cheapest depending on the fee charged, etc.

What you shouldn't expect is to get professional advice for free.  If the dad isn't paying a fee, it would be ludicrous for the advisor to point him to a competitor.  That's like an architect coming in and drawing up the plans for free and then giving them to the guy to go to his competition. That's a quick way to be in business for a very short period of time.

In other words, it's unfair to make an assumption that someone is "slimy" without having any facts other than knowing what class of share their dad has been put in.

Exactly.  The architect should not give the plans away and should instead gouge the customer for as much as he can milk out of him.

I know i'm coming off strongly, but I already have a strong disposition of disliking financial advisers.  I know they still have to eat, I just don't like that they have to be parasitic to accomplish that.

I think you guys are putting the hammer down too hard on this person.  These advisors are really salespeople, no bones about that, so yes he'll make a commission.  However consider the real alternatives:

1.  Dad gets sold on investment, pays the fee (load), and he now has $11K in his name.
2.  Dad doesn't buy the investment, and spends his tax refund on RANDOM CRAP.  He now has $0 to his name.
3.  Dad is in the 1% of the population that is financially savvy, and he didn't go to HR Block in the first place.

3okirb

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Which would be just fine if the job title was "Mutual Fund Sales" and not "Financial Advisor".  The word "Advisor" implies that the individual is looking out for your best interests, when that is just simply not the case.

Agreed.  I have no problem with it as long as he/she is up front about how they get paid.  I also have no problem with them getting paid.  The best option for the professional advice might be an A share.  It might be a C share.  It might be paying an upfront fee and be pointed to a low fee Vanguard fund.  The last option might not be the cheapest depending on the fee charged, etc.

What you shouldn't expect is to get professional advice for free.  If the dad isn't paying a fee, it would be ludicrous for the advisor to point him to a competitor.  That's like an architect coming in and drawing up the plans for free and then giving them to the guy to go to his competition. That's a quick way to be in business for a very short period of time.

In other words, it's unfair to make an assumption that someone is "slimy" without having any facts other than knowing what class of share their dad has been put in.

Exactly.  The architect should not give the plans away and should instead gouge the customer for as much as he can milk out of him.

I know i'm coming off strongly, but I already have a strong disposition of disliking financial advisers.  I know they still have to eat, I just don't like that they have to be parasitic to accomplish that.

Not to keep bringing up alternative ways of looking at these things since you've made clear your position, but keep in mind that it's the company (American Funds for example) that sets that load, not the advisor.

As far as "not adding value", that's a different story.  It sounded like you were basing everything off of a mutual fund fee rather than the value.  If he didn't add any value, your point is well taken. 

I will also add that it's easy to point the finger here, where a lot of us know enough about money and investing, but that neglects a large portion of society that not only doesn't know about money (and further need help with debt, etc.) but doesn't want to know about money.  For those people, a good financial advisor could be valuable.  It reminds me of my teaching days.  When I was starting out, I realized how much knowledge I took for granted.  The reality was that a lot of kids don't know what we consider a basic understanding of the world.


skyrefuge

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What you shouldn't expect is to get professional advice for free.

Have you visited this forum? Or the Internet? It's actually quite easy to get better-than-professional advice for free.

I completely agree that *if* you're going to pay an adviser, paying via front-end loads isn't inherently evil or even necessarily sub-optimal. I just thought it was funny to see the idea that good-advice-costs-money presented in this forum.

I also know that low-fee-index-mania is on the rise, and it's possible that 5-6+ years ago or whenever this all started (that would be well pre-MMM, as I recall) the type of investment your father was put in seemed much more "normal" or "typical" than it does to us today, and unmanaged might have seemed "risky" or "weird" to all concerned. I know 5 years ago I would probably have thought that, anyway.

Certainly the Vanguard model has continued to gain steam and influence, but it was plenty "normal" even 15 years ago. That's when I started investing, and I knew then that low-cost index funds were the way to go, and front-end loads were to be avoided like the plague. The big multinational corporation I worked for used Vanguard as their 401(k) provider and had plenty of index funds available, so it was hardly some "weird" fringe idea.

3okirb

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What you shouldn't expect is to get professional advice for free.

Have you visited this forum? Or the Internet? It's actually quite easy to get better-than-professional advice for free.

I completely agree that *if* you're going to pay an adviser, paying via front-end loads isn't inherently evil or even necessarily sub-optimal. I just thought it was funny to see the idea that good-advice-costs-money presented in this forum.


I agree for me and you, but some people have so much anxiety and stress in making a long term decision that if made wrong can result in them running out of money, that paying for someone to recommend something for their specific situation is worth it.  It's what companies like Consumer Reports have built their business on.  Some people get peace of mind being shown what to do by a researched company or individual.  I would even go as far as to say that in such a case, it would be worth giving up some wealth to gain the peace of mind to actually be able to enjoy retirement.  Again, that's not for you and me, but I have come to realize over the course of my life that people aren't always like me and that doesn't make them bad.

jmusic

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What you shouldn't expect is to get professional advice for free.

Have you visited this forum? Or the Internet? It's actually quite easy to get better-than-professional advice for free.

I completely agree that *if* you're going to pay an adviser, paying via front-end loads isn't inherently evil or even necessarily sub-optimal. I just thought it was funny to see the idea that good-advice-costs-money presented in this forum.

I also know that low-fee-index-mania is on the rise, and it's possible that 5-6+ years ago or whenever this all started (that would be well pre-MMM, as I recall) the type of investment your father was put in seemed much more "normal" or "typical" than it does to us today, and unmanaged might have seemed "risky" or "weird" to all concerned. I know 5 years ago I would probably have thought that, anyway.

Certainly the Vanguard model has continued to gain steam and influence, but it was plenty "normal" even 15 years ago. That's when I started investing, and I knew then that low-cost index funds were the way to go, and front-end loads were to be avoided like the plague. The big multinational corporation I worked for used Vanguard as their 401(k) provider and had plenty of index funds available, so it was hardly some "weird" fringe idea.

Yes, folks like you and I already know this kind of stuff.  But my point is that we're all preaching to the choir around here! 

The value that this salesperson added was that he GOT OP'S DAD TO CONTRIBUTE AT ALL!

Did you guys know that only 38% of working Americans even have an IRA account?
http://iracontributionlimits2010.com/americans-decreasing-investment-in-iras-new-study/2012/03/

skyrefuge

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Some people get peace of mind being shown what to do by a researched company or individual.  I would even go as far as to say that in such a case, it would be worth giving up some wealth to gain the peace of mind to actually be able to enjoy retirement.

Yep, I agree. I'm just interested in the concept of "trust" these days, and my dream is that in the future, we can somehow change the culture or change trust-mechanisms such that more people are comfortable trusting Internet strangers and don't have to rely on branding as their trust-indicator (which often attempts to instill a feeling of trust where no such trust is deserved).

Yes, folks like you and I already know this kind of stuff.  But my point is that we're all preaching to the choir around here!

Yeah, I'm not at all saying that 100% of people should be able to figure it all out on their own, or that anyone who can't is an idiot. I was just letting HopefulMustache know that DIY passive investing has been a normal thing for a longer period than (s)he thought.

Sid Hoffman

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Did you guys know that only 38% of working Americans even have an IRA account?
http://iracontributionlimits2010.com/americans-decreasing-investment-in-iras-new-study/2012/03/

Yeah most workers with full-time jobs have access to 401k accounts.  The contribution limit is over 3x as high for a 401k, is done by automatic payroll deduction, often includes extra "free" money from the employer, and is usually low cost if you select index funds because the options are group-negotiated by the company in terms of fees and costs.  For the overwhelming majority of workers a 401k makes much more sense than an IRA.  This is especially true for the big companies that let you simultaneously do both a traditional 401k and Roth 401k, putting a bit of money in both accounts to give you tax diversity.

For self employed, part time workers, and those who simply don't have access to a company sponsored 401k account then IRAs make plenty of sense.  For people who have already maxed out their 401k contribution to the legal limit then adding to an IRA too also makes sense.  Those are minority cases however.  I'd love to see more people saving in every type of account available, but I also know plenty of people retire easily on just a 401k or two and their Social Security benefits.

HopefulMustache

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Some people get peace of mind being shown what to do by a researched company or individual.  I would even go as far as to say that in such a case, it would be worth giving up some wealth to gain the peace of mind to actually be able to enjoy retirement.

Yep, I agree. I'm just interested in the concept of "trust" these days, and my dream is that in the future, we can somehow change the culture or change trust-mechanisms such that more people are comfortable trusting Internet strangers and don't have to rely on branding as their trust-indicator (which often attempts to instill a feeling of trust where no such trust is deserved).

Yes, folks like you and I already know this kind of stuff.  But my point is that we're all preaching to the choir around here!

Yeah, I'm not at all saying that 100% of people should be able to figure it all out on their own, or that anyone who can't is an idiot. I was just letting HopefulMustache know that DIY passive investing has been a normal thing for a longer period than (s)he thought.

Thanks Skyrefuge. I have read that it's been around for at least a couple of decades, but I wonder how long it's been anything like "mainstream." Though I only started reading up on this stuff last fall, I admit it's likely longer than that. Still, now I see articles about it everywhere, often talking about how large brokerages are finally starting to pay serious attention to the segment to try and capture some of the "growing consumer interest," etc. As I said I wasn't reading about this stuff 5+ years ago, but I have to guess the tone was different, especially pre-recession. Just my guess.

Also, trusting internet strangers is quite a dream! It's very freeing to try and do it on places like this and I've benefited by it, but the bar for being an internet stranger is quite low. This is a good thing, but it means you have to be pretty discriminating as far as where/when/how you seek/apply internet advice. Frankly, even MMM is a brand that conveys trust to these boards by its reputation. Anyway, I hear you on that - lots of branding is just phony marketing that means little.

stlbrah

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this douchebag tried to sell me the American Funds mutual fund at about that fee. I didn't know a lot about funds at the time.

The thing that kept me from signing was that he still had old cathode ray tube monitors in his office... so I assumed he was not very good at his work.

Sid Hoffman

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The thing that kept me from signing was that he still had old cathode ray tube monitors in his office... so I assumed he was not very good at his work.

A couple years ago I rented a moving van from a guy in a sketchy part of town.  Not only did he have an old-school computer with a CRT, but he was running DOS and printed the invoice on a dot-matrix printer.  It was like I stepped back in time to 1988, but this was in 2012!  I know you can still get dot matrix paper from amazon.com, but I have no idea what he was doing about getting printer ribbons.  Even if you re-ink them yourself, the ribbon wears out over time.  It was just so odd, but I guess some business owners don't ever want to invest in modernization.  Thankfully the truck itself wasn't a million years old.  Like you said though, it certainly makes a negative impression when you see a business that clearly makes zero effort in their infrastructure.  It's a business, not a lemonade stand.

Jack

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Not only did he have an old-school computer with a CRT, but he was running DOS and printed the invoice on a dot-matrix printer.  It was like I stepped back in time to 1988, but this was in 2012!  I know you can still get dot matrix paper from amazon.com, but I have no idea what he was doing about getting printer ribbons.  Even if you re-ink them yourself, the ribbon wears out over time.

You know, there is one thing that dot-matrix printers can do that modern printers can't: print in triplicate on copy paper.

Besides, how does having a fancy computer help that guy do a better job renting moving vans? The answer is, it doesn't -- all buying new stuff does is subtract from his bottom line. I'm willing to bet that you decided to rent the van from him in the first place because he was the cheapest, and he was the cheapest precisely because he's not wasting his money on laser printers and whatnot.

Furthermore, I'd much rather have a DOS printing workflow that works and can be left alone than to have to futz around with Windows printer driver BS all the damn time.

Personally, I think the guy was laudably Mustachian (unless the ongoing marginal costs of buying obsolete paper and ribbons (vs. regular paper and ink/toner) exceeded the cost of upgrading).

3okirb

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You know, there is one thing that dot-matrix printers can do that modern printers can't: print in triplicate on copy paper.

Besides, how does having a fancy computer help that guy do a better job renting moving vans? The answer is, it doesn't -- all buying new stuff does is subtract from his bottom line. I'm willing to bet that you decided to rent the van from him in the first place because he was the cheapest, and he was the cheapest precisely because he's not wasting his money on laser printers and whatnot.

Furthermore, I'd much rather have a DOS printing workflow that works and can be left alone than to have to futz around with Windows printer driver BS all the damn time.

Personally, I think the guy was laudably Mustachian (unless the ongoing marginal costs of buying obsolete paper and ribbons (vs. regular paper and ink/toner) exceeded the cost of upgrading).

I thought the same thing.  Pretty ironic that we're sitting on a MrMoneyMustache forum bashing a guy for showing some badassity!  More power to him. 

Indexer

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If you go to an advisor, he's not going to work for free.
1)  Pay the commission
2)  Pay the ongoing fees
3)  Pay an upfront fee for the advice and do it on your own with his help
4)  Do it yourself.

The problem is if given the choice, most people aren't going to want to spend hundreds of dollars up front for advice, so they pick one of the other options.  If it's slimy to make a profit, I guess you're right.  People work for a lot of different reasons, but very few will do it for free.

I understand he isn't going to work for free.  I don't have a problem with someone making a reasonable amount of profit when they actually add value to something, but I don't feel that he is adding any value.   It seem predatory to me, and if I were in a position to offer someone a mediocre mutual fund with a front load fee I don't think I could do it.  It would feel wrong.


Well first off I can say the commission was disclosed.  The commissions are listed in the prospectus, and the FA gave your dad a prospectus.  Its as standard as a guy at McDonalds putting beef on a patty.  Its not something they would forget.

And I'm not going to defend FAs as a group, but I have friends who have done that job.  They aren't evil people.  Most of them actually want to help people, and they believed they were.  You are comparing them to managing an account at Vanguard, and they are fed anti-index fund propaganda on a daily basis so that is not something they would consider(then).  They are led to believe you can beat the market, and investors are paying that 4.75% load for their expertise.  So at the very least they see themselves as helping, not hurting.  (Now insurance agents selling indexed annuities or whole life policies as "retirement plans"... there is no kidding there, those guys are vultures.)

The other problem is if you want to help people through financial planning as a career you can't just start your own investment advisory business charging 0.5% AUM or a flat fee on day one.  No one will take you seriously, no one will sponsor you for your licenses, you will never get needed experience, and you will go broke under that model very quick if you don't already have a book of business.  However a big brokerage firm will hire you right out of college, sponsor you for those licenses, and with a Merrill Lynch or Morgan Stanley business card people will assume you know what you are talking about.  Oh, and a couple of my friends who use to work as salespeople for broker dealers are now fee only planners who charge very reasonable fees.

Selling loaded mutual funds was also the norm for a long time, and kind of still is.  The idea of an index fund with a 0.05% fee... well I don't even think Bogle thought that was possible. 

Could be worse.  Your dad could have been sold a high commission variable annuity with a 7 year surrender period ;).

Malaysia41

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I was checking out my dad's investment and his IRA is in a mutual fund that has a 5.75% front load fee.  I was mildly angry when I discovered this.  What a slimy investment adviser he has.  I think he will be severing the relationship in the near future and moving his IRA over to vanguard.  At least that's what i'm advising him to do.

Good luck convincing your dad.  In December I joined my dad for a 1 hour meeting with his investment advisor at Chase Bank.  Long story short: he's paying ~2.1% per year in fees for an actively managed account.  That just SLAYS me. 

After the meeting, over beers, I tried to convince him to cash out, and let me put his money in a 50/50 portfolio at Vanguard - rebalancing every 6 months.  Later over dinner we discussed the Chase meeting again.  Mom listened and a few weeks later sent me some $ from their savings account to invest at Vanguard.  But their investment account is still at Chase. 

Today I just got an email from him asking about the Chase fees. I sent him a screenshot of his Vanguard account and the .05% fee he's paying on the admiral shares. 

At least he's thinking about it.  Crossing fingers he finally does something about it.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 10:24:02 PM by Malaysia41 »

frugalnacho

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If you go to an advisor, he's not going to work for free.
1)  Pay the commission
2)  Pay the ongoing fees
3)  Pay an upfront fee for the advice and do it on your own with his help
4)  Do it yourself.

The problem is if given the choice, most people aren't going to want to spend hundreds of dollars up front for advice, so they pick one of the other options.  If it's slimy to make a profit, I guess you're right.  People work for a lot of different reasons, but very few will do it for free.

I understand he isn't going to work for free.  I don't have a problem with someone making a reasonable amount of profit when they actually add value to something, but I don't feel that he is adding any value.   It seem predatory to me, and if I were in a position to offer someone a mediocre mutual fund with a front load fee I don't think I could do it.  It would feel wrong.


Well first off I can say the commission was disclosed.  The commissions are listed in the prospectus, and the FA gave your dad a prospectus.  Its as standard as a guy at McDonalds putting beef on a patty.  Its not something they would forget.

And I'm not going to defend FAs as a group, but I have friends who have done that job.  They aren't evil people.  Most of them actually want to help people, and they believed they were.  You are comparing them to managing an account at Vanguard, and they are fed anti-index fund propaganda on a daily basis so that is not something they would consider(then).  They are led to believe you can beat the market, and investors are paying that 4.75% load for their expertise.  So at the very least they see themselves as helping, not hurting.  (Now insurance agents selling indexed annuities or whole life policies as "retirement plans"... there is no kidding there, those guys are vultures.)

The other problem is if you want to help people through financial planning as a career you can't just start your own investment advisory business charging 0.5% AUM or a flat fee on day one.  No one will take you seriously, no one will sponsor you for your licenses, you will never get needed experience, and you will go broke under that model very quick if you don't already have a book of business.  However a big brokerage firm will hire you right out of college, sponsor you for those licenses, and with a Merrill Lynch or Morgan Stanley business card people will assume you know what you are talking about.  Oh, and a couple of my friends who use to work as salespeople for broker dealers are now fee only planners who charge very reasonable fees.

Selling loaded mutual funds was also the norm for a long time, and kind of still is.  The idea of an index fund with a 0.05% fee... well I don't even think Bogle thought that was possible. 

Could be worse.  Your dad could have been sold a high commission variable annuity with a 7 year surrender period ;).

I'm not sure I fully understand your argument.  Your argument seems to be that maybe he isn't a predatory vulture snapping up unnecessary fees to the detriment of his clientele, but instead he might just be so ignorant and uninformed, within his own area of expertise, that he doesn't even realize how he is harming his clients and thinks he is actually doing good?  That's honestly not much better than being a predatory vulture.

I also don't understand the sentiment that "it could be worse".  I know it could, so does everyone else, but I don't think that justifies it.  I mean after all he could have raped and dismembered my dad in additional to charging him a front load fee, so, you know, it could have been much worse.  Or maybe he did rape him, but at least he didn't dismember him, right?

3okirb

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If you go to an advisor, he's not going to work for free.
1)  Pay the commission
2)  Pay the ongoing fees
3)  Pay an upfront fee for the advice and do it on your own with his help
4)  Do it yourself.

The problem is if given the choice, most people aren't going to want to spend hundreds of dollars up front for advice, so they pick one of the other options.  If it's slimy to make a profit, I guess you're right.  People work for a lot of different reasons, but very few will do it for free.

I understand he isn't going to work for free.  I don't have a problem with someone making a reasonable amount of profit when they actually add value to something, but I don't feel that he is adding any value.   It seem predatory to me, and if I were in a position to offer someone a mediocre mutual fund with a front load fee I don't think I could do it.  It would feel wrong.


Well first off I can say the commission was disclosed.  The commissions are listed in the prospectus, and the FA gave your dad a prospectus.  Its as standard as a guy at McDonalds putting beef on a patty.  Its not something they would forget.

And I'm not going to defend FAs as a group, but I have friends who have done that job.  They aren't evil people.  Most of them actually want to help people, and they believed they were.  You are comparing them to managing an account at Vanguard, and they are fed anti-index fund propaganda on a daily basis so that is not something they would consider(then).  They are led to believe you can beat the market, and investors are paying that 4.75% load for their expertise.  So at the very least they see themselves as helping, not hurting.  (Now insurance agents selling indexed annuities or whole life policies as "retirement plans"... there is no kidding there, those guys are vultures.)

The other problem is if you want to help people through financial planning as a career you can't just start your own investment advisory business charging 0.5% AUM or a flat fee on day one.  No one will take you seriously, no one will sponsor you for your licenses, you will never get needed experience, and you will go broke under that model very quick if you don't already have a book of business.  However a big brokerage firm will hire you right out of college, sponsor you for those licenses, and with a Merrill Lynch or Morgan Stanley business card people will assume you know what you are talking about.  Oh, and a couple of my friends who use to work as salespeople for broker dealers are now fee only planners who charge very reasonable fees.

Selling loaded mutual funds was also the norm for a long time, and kind of still is.  The idea of an index fund with a 0.05% fee... well I don't even think Bogle thought that was possible. 

Could be worse.  Your dad could have been sold a high commission variable annuity with a 7 year surrender period ;).

I'm not sure I fully understand your argument.  Your argument seems to be that maybe he isn't a predatory vulture snapping up unnecessary fees to the detriment of his clientele, but instead he might just be so ignorant and uninformed, within his own area of expertise, that he doesn't even realize how he is harming his clients and thinks he is actually doing good?  That's honestly not much better than being a predatory vulture.

I also don't understand the sentiment that "it could be worse".  I know it could, so does everyone else, but I don't think that justifies it.  I mean after all he could have raped and dismembered my dad in additional to charging him a front load fee, so, you know, it could have been much worse.  Or maybe he did rape him, but at least he didn't dismember him, right?

In an ideal world, how do you think the advisor should have proceeded?  You've got a guy that knows little about investing (which is why he's meeting with an advisor).  He comes and spends a few hours with the guy and they figure out together what he has, where he wants to be and what his goals for his family, retirement, etc. are.  It comes time to sign the paperwork.  What's the best case scenario?

frugalnacho

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In an ideal world, how do you think the advisor should have proceeded?  You've got a guy that knows little about investing (which is why he's meeting with an advisor).  He comes and spends a few hours with the guy and they figure out together what he has, where he wants to be and what his goals for his family, retirement, etc. are.  It comes time to sign the paperwork.  What's the best case scenario?

I don't know if I have an answer for that.  In an ideal world my dad would have educated himself and avoided the adviser altogether.

Indexer

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If you go to an advisor, he's not going to work for free.
1)  Pay the commission
2)  Pay the ongoing fees
3)  Pay an upfront fee for the advice and do it on your own with his help
4)  Do it yourself.

The problem is if given the choice, most people aren't going to want to spend hundreds of dollars up front for advice, so they pick one of the other options.  If it's slimy to make a profit, I guess you're right.  People work for a lot of different reasons, but very few will do it for free.

I understand he isn't going to work for free.  I don't have a problem with someone making a reasonable amount of profit when they actually add value to something, but I don't feel that he is adding any value.   It seem predatory to me, and if I were in a position to offer someone a mediocre mutual fund with a front load fee I don't think I could do it.  It would feel wrong.


Well first off I can say the commission was disclosed.  The commissions are listed in the prospectus, and the FA gave your dad a prospectus.  Its as standard as a guy at McDonalds putting beef on a patty.  Its not something they would forget.

And I'm not going to defend FAs as a group, but I have friends who have done that job.  They aren't evil people.  Most of them actually want to help people, and they believed they were.  You are comparing them to managing an account at Vanguard, and they are fed anti-index fund propaganda on a daily basis so that is not something they would consider(then).  They are led to believe you can beat the market, and investors are paying that 4.75% load for their expertise.  So at the very least they see themselves as helping, not hurting.  (Now insurance agents selling indexed annuities or whole life policies as "retirement plans"... there is no kidding there, those guys are vultures.)

The other problem is if you want to help people through financial planning as a career you can't just start your own investment advisory business charging 0.5% AUM or a flat fee on day one.  No one will take you seriously, no one will sponsor you for your licenses, you will never get needed experience, and you will go broke under that model very quick if you don't already have a book of business.  However a big brokerage firm will hire you right out of college, sponsor you for those licenses, and with a Merrill Lynch or Morgan Stanley business card people will assume you know what you are talking about.  Oh, and a couple of my friends who use to work as salespeople for broker dealers are now fee only planners who charge very reasonable fees.

Selling loaded mutual funds was also the norm for a long time, and kind of still is.  The idea of an index fund with a 0.05% fee... well I don't even think Bogle thought that was possible. 

Could be worse.  Your dad could have been sold a high commission variable annuity with a 7 year surrender period ;).

I'm not sure I fully understand your argument.  Your argument seems to be that maybe he isn't a predatory vulture snapping up unnecessary fees to the detriment of his clientele, but instead he might just be so ignorant and uninformed, within his own area of expertise, that he doesn't even realize how he is harming his clients and thinks he is actually doing good?  That's honestly not much better than being a predatory vulture.

I also don't understand the sentiment that "it could be worse".  I know it could, so does everyone else, but I don't think that justifies it.  I mean after all he could have raped and dismembered my dad in additional to charging him a front load fee, so, you know, it could have been much worse.  Or maybe he did rape him, but at least he didn't dismember him, right?

Yes my argument is that 'maybe' the advisor isn't a predatory vulture.  Many are... so he might be, but many advisors ARE trying to help their clients.  The guy isn't instantly evil because he charged 5.75%.  Thats the norm for financial advice if you get it through a broker.  They charge 4-5.75% for mutual funds.  They believe that with their expertise you can beat the market(I know thats crazy, but read the investor alley section of this forum and you will realize even some mustachians believe it ;) ).

Now I'm in 100% agreement that 5.75% front end loads shouldn't be the norm for financial advice.  I think that business model needs to go the way of the dinosaur, and Vanguard/Betterment are doing a great job at making it happen.  However the fact that this guy still lives in the old decaying system doesn't instantly make him a slimeball.  He is doing a job, charging what he believes to be a reasonable fee, and your dad paid the fee with full knowledge.  It is like complaining that a salesmen sold your dad a Cadillac... when your dad was standing on a Cadillac showroom floor. ;)

I pointed out the variable annuities and index annuities not because the advisor could have made it even worse, but maybe he was doing his job and recommended something suitable(albeit expensive).  If left to his own devices, or in the hands of a true scumbag your dad could have done worse.  That is what I was getting at. 

3okirb

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If you go to an advisor, he's not going to work for free.
1)  Pay the commission
2)  Pay the ongoing fees
3)  Pay an upfront fee for the advice and do it on your own with his help
4)  Do it yourself.

The problem is if given the choice, most people aren't going to want to spend hundreds of dollars up front for advice, so they pick one of the other options.  If it's slimy to make a profit, I guess you're right.  People work for a lot of different reasons, but very few will do it for free.

I understand he isn't going to work for free.  I don't have a problem with someone making a reasonable amount of profit when they actually add value to something, but I don't feel that he is adding any value.   It seem predatory to me, and if I were in a position to offer someone a mediocre mutual fund with a front load fee I don't think I could do it.  It would feel wrong.


Well first off I can say the commission was disclosed.  The commissions are listed in the prospectus, and the FA gave your dad a prospectus.  Its as standard as a guy at McDonalds putting beef on a patty.  Its not something they would forget.

And I'm not going to defend FAs as a group, but I have friends who have done that job.  They aren't evil people.  Most of them actually want to help people, and they believed they were.  You are comparing them to managing an account at Vanguard, and they are fed anti-index fund propaganda on a daily basis so that is not something they would consider(then).  They are led to believe you can beat the market, and investors are paying that 4.75% load for their expertise.  So at the very least they see themselves as helping, not hurting.  (Now insurance agents selling indexed annuities or whole life policies as "retirement plans"... there is no kidding there, those guys are vultures.)

The other problem is if you want to help people through financial planning as a career you can't just start your own investment advisory business charging 0.5% AUM or a flat fee on day one.  No one will take you seriously, no one will sponsor you for your licenses, you will never get needed experience, and you will go broke under that model very quick if you don't already have a book of business.  However a big brokerage firm will hire you right out of college, sponsor you for those licenses, and with a Merrill Lynch or Morgan Stanley business card people will assume you know what you are talking about.  Oh, and a couple of my friends who use to work as salespeople for broker dealers are now fee only planners who charge very reasonable fees.

Selling loaded mutual funds was also the norm for a long time, and kind of still is.  The idea of an index fund with a 0.05% fee... well I don't even think Bogle thought that was possible. 

Could be worse.  Your dad could have been sold a high commission variable annuity with a 7 year surrender period ;).

I'm not sure I fully understand your argument.  Your argument seems to be that maybe he isn't a predatory vulture snapping up unnecessary fees to the detriment of his clientele, but instead he might just be so ignorant and uninformed, within his own area of expertise, that he doesn't even realize how he is harming his clients and thinks he is actually doing good?  That's honestly not much better than being a predatory vulture.

I also don't understand the sentiment that "it could be worse".  I know it could, so does everyone else, but I don't think that justifies it.  I mean after all he could have raped and dismembered my dad in additional to charging him a front load fee, so, you know, it could have been much worse.  Or maybe he did rape him, but at least he didn't dismember him, right?

Yes my argument is that 'maybe' the advisor isn't a predatory vulture.  Many are... so he might be, but many advisors ARE trying to help their clients.  The guy isn't instantly evil because he charged 5.75%.  Thats the norm for financial advice if you get it through a broker.  They charge 4-5.75% for mutual funds.  They believe that with their expertise you can beat the market(I know thats crazy, but read the investor alley section of this forum and you will realize even some mustachians believe it ;) ).

Now I'm in 100% agreement that 5.75% front end loads shouldn't be the norm for financial advice.  I think that business model needs to go the way of the dinosaur, and Vanguard/Betterment are doing a great job at making it happen.  However the fact that this guy still lives in the old decaying system doesn't instantly make him a slimeball.  He is doing a job, charging what he believes to be a reasonable fee, and your dad paid the fee with full knowledge.  It is like complaining that a salesmen sold your dad a Cadillac... when your dad was standing on a Cadillac showroom floor. ;)

I pointed out the variable annuities and index annuities not because the advisor could have made it even worse, but maybe he was doing his job and recommended something suitable(albeit expensive).  If left to his own devices, or in the hands of a true scumbag your dad could have done worse.  That is what I was getting at.

A couple of things to clarify.  1)  He doesn't set the fee, the mutual fund company does.  (Technically, it's not a fee, it's a commission)  2)  Those fees (commissions) are normally tiered, so it's not like if you have $1M you would be charged the same overall %.   

That being said, a "fee only" FA will be charging over 1.4% PER YEAR, so it's not like "fee only" would be any better.  Basically, at the end of the day, if you need help investing, you're going to pay a pretty good chunk of money to get that help.  We can say that the mustacian thing to do is to learn it yourself, but there's always something you think that about.  I've spend close to $2,000 on my HVAC this past year (on my mind because $800 of that was this past week), and keep thinking of learning to do it myself, etc., but where does that thinking stop?

frugalnacho

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This new thread just made me think of this post I made, and has reinforced my belief of american fund advisers as predatory scum:

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/american-funds-roth-ira-did-i-make-a-mistake/


Ovid

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My parents were in with an adviser like this one for a while.  They were paying 1% per year plus getting thrown into loaded high fee funds on top of it.

The thing that finally triggered their move to Vanguard was the (in their words) "dishonesty of the mutual fund fees."  I am sure they received a prospectus they never read, but the only fees they clearly understood was the 1% per year he was getting for picking their funds. 

I guess I would agree that kickbacks from picking certain funds is pretty sketchy.  It is pretty easy to argue they are either working their own best interests or yours, but not both.