Author Topic: Just bought my first house... a McMansion -- critique my justification  (Read 36222 times)

MandyM

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Re: Just bought my first house... a McMansion -- critique my justification
« Reply #100 on: April 02, 2015, 08:46:13 AM »

OP, it seems like there has to be some kind of middle ground where the house is concerned, too. I feel like a lot of people who are supporting your house purchase (and maybe you too have this mindset) feel like it's an either/or... buy a ginormous McMansion, or live in marginal neighborhoods where you must uproot your kids every two years to avoid their school which has become the setting for ghetto warfare. is this SERIOUSLY the case in Atlanta? is there NOWHERE you can buy a reasonably-sized home in a stable, established neighborhood/school district? I guess I'm just skeptical.

+1 And I think that a lot of the supporters are only looking at the price. I get that you are in a more expensive area that I am and I have no basis to judge the cost of the home and that your income can support this cost. But the size is exceptionally large and frankly, unjustifiable outside of "I wanted it." Six bedrooms? How many children do you plan on having???

As a side note, I grew up in the same school district from K-12. Sure there are benefits to that, but I think you are making mountains out of molehills. There are 1000s of other parenting decisions that are more important and make more of an impact. Whether or not you see how small this one is is probably due to the fact that you don't have children yet. 

Wupper

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Re: Just bought my first house... a McMansion -- critique my justification
« Reply #101 on: April 02, 2015, 09:36:22 AM »
I do work in the tech industry so it is possible I would get laid off. My hope (and judging by the number of LinkedIn recruiter reqeusts) is that I would be able to continue at my current or better salary. Obviously in a down market I could be screwed, so my plan is to invest/bank a ton until the next crash.

Earlier, I commented about your salary.

Of course, high paid tech employees are laid off occasionally, but as you know, they hardly ever have problems finding their next job at similar income.

That's not the case with many other professions. I know far too many people that earned high salaries, get laid off, and never reach that income level again. Of course, the bills keep coming.

You make lots of money, want a large house in a good school district, and seems very reasonable to expect that you'll be able to easily afford the house and associated lifestyle.

Good for you, man. Again, no facepunches from me.


velocistar237

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Re: Just bought my first house... a McMansion -- critique my justification
« Reply #102 on: April 02, 2015, 11:05:40 AM »
Were there no smaller houses in that neighborhood or a similar one? I get that the house isn't that expensive compared to your income, but you're in Atlanta, one of the cheaper housing markets, and there has to be something more suited to your goals out there.

East River Guide

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Re: Just bought my first house... a McMansion -- critique my justification
« Reply #103 on: April 02, 2015, 04:39:55 PM »
I would like to give my rationale for wanting my kids to have school stability.

That's what we have done. We could have gone ex-pat but chose to stay stable.    Myabe it could have been even better but so far the kids have turned out pretty well.

What high shcool district will you be in?

Ricky

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Re: Just bought my first house... a McMansion -- critique my justification
« Reply #104 on: April 02, 2015, 04:42:34 PM »
It's not really the fact that you spent that much on housing...it's the fact that you spent that much on housing...in Atlanta (no offense at all).

Eric

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Re: Just bought my first house... a McMansion -- critique my justification
« Reply #105 on: April 02, 2015, 05:20:17 PM »
So when are you going to change your username?

Dee18

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Re: Just bought my first house... a McMansion -- critique my justification
« Reply #106 on: April 02, 2015, 07:02:29 PM »
The hard part will be raising Mustachian kids in such a neighborhood.

NICE!

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Re: Just bought my first house... a McMansion -- critique my justification
« Reply #107 on: April 08, 2015, 02:47:11 PM »
I feel that people never discuss (except once or twice in this thread, but not at length) what you're teaching children by having a McMansion and sending them to school with upper middle class or rich kids.

From where do you think their standards for homes, cars, phones, clothes, and partners will come?

That's right - you and the rich people around you.

Do you want your children leaving the home expecting to drive a late-model luxury car? How about a huge home? How about the newest iPhone? Do you want them to speak like the writing voices in The New Yorker, using French phrases in completely unnecessary places only to sound intelligent and cultivated?

If you don't want them to be like that, it will be very hard to teach when they are surrounded by it, including in their own home.

My parents have been on an upward trajectory my whole life and have recently (within the last decade) succumbed to lifestyle inflation. I'm glad that happened after I left because they taught me well but it would've been hard to listen to advice like "avoid lifestyle inflation" when that's what I saw in front of my face.

That's actually one of the biggest, if not the biggest reasons I wouldn't buy a home like you bought. Yeah, I'm concerned for all the other reasons mentioned (cost, added time to FI, desire to fill it, taxes, massive environmental impact, commute, risk due to job loss, etc), but I know that those concerns could be voiced to some degree at any level.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 04:26:13 PM by NICE! »

Dee18

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Re: Just bought my first house... a McMansion -- critique my justification
« Reply #108 on: April 08, 2015, 04:35:26 PM »
NICE made a lot if good points.
I write just to say I completely disagree with the assertion "it's hard to move after kids."  When they are little, their world revolves around you.  You just pack up their things (hopefully that's not too much stuff if you are MMM) and try to have continuity with any important caregivers.  You tell them what is fun about the new house and let them have the biggest boxes for building forts and they think it is great. 

justajane

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Re: Just bought my first house... a McMansion -- critique my justification
« Reply #109 on: April 08, 2015, 04:56:19 PM »
Do you want them to speak like the writing voices in The New Yorker, using French phrases in completely unnecessary places only to sound intelligent and cultivated?

I agree with most of your assertions, but this one is just bizarre. This sounds more like a caricature of the wealthy elite 100 years ago than the people who live in McMansions today. Are you trying to discuss pretentiousness rather than actual intelligence? If so, I get it. But obviously education, worldliness, and cultural fluency do not go hand in hand with wealth. In fact, the intelligentsia in general doesn't tend to be that wealthy.

Your description made me think of Graydon Carter of Vanity Fair magazine, but I doubt these are the people that the OP is going to expose his kids to.

NICE!

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Re: Just bought my first house... a McMansion -- critique my justification
« Reply #110 on: April 09, 2015, 01:33:08 AM »
I agree with most of your assertions, but this one is just bizarre. This sounds more like a caricature of the wealthy elite 100 years ago than the people who live in McMansions today. Are you trying to discuss pretentiousness rather than actual intelligence? If so, I get it. But obviously education, worldliness, and cultural fluency do not go hand in hand with wealth. In fact, the intelligentsia in general doesn't tend to be that wealthy.

Your description made me think of Graydon Carter of Vanity Fair magazine, but I doubt these are the people that the OP is going to expose his kids to.

It was partly tongue-in-cheek because I speak French.

However, it was partly earnest. Check out their articles. They do really obnoxious stuff like say "fete" with English spelling when they really could just say party. I love the French language and find it to be far more beautiful than English, but at least do it when it makes sense. "Fete" doesn't sound prettier or make your point better than party, it just makes you sound pretentious.

You're right that my critique is more about old money WASPs in the Northeast and/or the intelligentsia that isn't ultra-wealthy, but I have seen these types n'importe où (ha).

CanuckExpat

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Re: Just bought my first house... a McMansion -- critique my justification
« Reply #111 on: April 11, 2015, 03:34:28 PM »
I had to double check that the original post wasn't made on April 1st, just in case this was a clever joke.
OP, there are so many questionable things about this decision and I think, or at least hope that you realize that. If anything, I will post my rant here on the off chance that someone else contemplating a similar decision reads it before it's too late.

As for the posters who agreed with you, as someone said before, did I log onto the DC Urban Moms forum by accident?

I should post this link first I guess, assuming I am in the right forum: How (and How Not) to Buy a House:
"I am not buying a flowery pillowcase of emotions or a future of warm memories. I am conducting a business transaction to purchase a piece of land and an assembled collection of construction materials."

I've been renting for my whole career, and since I am getting married and planning on starting a family I decided I needed to buy a house.

This is a red flag right here.
Now perhaps things are different in the South, and there is a law that says you have to buy a house once you get married or think about having kids (the Realtors are a powerful lobby..) but in most places I'm familiar with, there is no such law. There might be a social assumption that you have to, and perhaps that is how everyone does it, but it does not mean you need or should unless it makes sense for your particular situation.

If you want to make sound financial decisions, it makes sense to question the received societal wisdom, and instead concern your self with conscious spending
Just from a financial comparison, you want to compare the costs of buying vs renting, and make sure you consider all the factors including opportunity cost

For all the people saying there is nothing wrong with wanting a nice house. I agree, that is an area we splurge on as well. But in this case the OP didn't state it was a nice house, he him/herself calls it a McMansion:
"judged to be oversized for its parcel, or incongruous and out of place for its neighborhood.. which prizes superficial appearance over quality.. builder may have attempted to achieve expensive effects with cheap materials, skimped on details, or hidden defects ... using materials that give an ugly, over the top and exaggerated appearance" (Wikipedia's words, not mine).

As for the idea of buying the house you want to be for a long time, I'm not really sure I follow either. Sure housing has high transaction costs, but there are also huge carrying and maintenance costs associated with a house larger than you need. I might understand wanting to plan for extra bedrooms if you were a few months away from adopting several kids and animals at once, but that doesn't sound like that case here. A child is an idea you are thinking of, that hasn't happened yet, and if/when it does, you don't know where you will be in life or what else would have changed.

Sure, moving is a little bit of a pain, but you spend one weekend packing up your boxes, and one weekend with some friends moving your furniture. It is only a huge pain if you've allowed your possessions to consume you and take over your life. If you have a reasonable amount of stuff, moving is a hassle, but not the end of the world.

Here are a couple of good links of people who moved and downsized, you can save your self the trouble by not getting into that situation in the first place:

This seems apt, given your username:
REJECT LIFESTYLE INFLATION: "If you’ve already succumbed to lifestyle inflation: that’s OK.  I did too.  It’s not a life sentence to working a job you hate for things you don’t want.  The entire description above was me, literally (including the 3189 sq ft house with pool in a fancy neighborhood).  But then I found a way out.  I created my own lifestyle deflation.  I downsized my house, moved close to work, sold my car, got rid of the money-sucking pool, and much more.  And life got better.  Way better.  Now that I’ve seen the inflated life and the simple life, I know that there’s no going back."

HOW I PULLED IN MY EARLY RETIREMENT BY 20 YEARS: "I sold my McMansion and purchased a much smaller house in my new town.It’s also worth noting that within a month we had more good friends in the neighborhood than we had after 8 years in our old neighborhood.  I credit this to the type of people that live in a lower income neighborhood as compared to a McMansion neighborhood.

Mistakes Were Made:
"I overspent on a house.  I was eager to get a place with my significant other, and at the time we thought we might have children together, so we paid a lot of money for a place with enough space to accommodate both if  we had 2 kids.   And we did this in one of the most expensive areas of the country...Pissed away.  Blown to the wind, never to be recovered.  And I don’t think that living in those places did anything to improve or change my levels of happiness or so-called quality of life.  All it’s done is made me work several years longer than I have to...At any rate, my wife and I are working on downsizing within the next 12-15 months to correct this problem.  It’s likely that we won’t buy our next house."

In case the decision has been made and finalized, I wish you the best and hope it works out well and you manage to live up to your username in other endeavors :)

Kris

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Re: Just bought my first house... a McMansion -- critique my justification
« Reply #112 on: April 11, 2015, 03:41:36 PM »
I feel that people never discuss (except once or twice in this thread, but not at length) what you're teaching children by having a McMansion and sending them to school with upper middle class or rich kids.

From where do you think their standards for homes, cars, phones, clothes, and partners will come?

That's right - you and the rich people around you.

Do you want your children leaving the home expecting to drive a late-model luxury car? How about a huge home? How about the newest iPhone? Do you want them to speak like the writing voices in The New Yorker, using French phrases in completely unnecessary places only to sound intelligent and cultivated?

If you don't want them to be like that, it will be very hard to teach when they are surrounded by it, including in their own home.

My parents have been on an upward trajectory my whole life and have recently (within the last decade) succumbed to lifestyle inflation. I'm glad that happened after I left because they taught me well but it would've been hard to listen to advice like "avoid lifestyle inflation" when that's what I saw in front of my face.

That's actually one of the biggest, if not the biggest reasons I wouldn't buy a home like you bought. Yeah, I'm concerned for all the other reasons mentioned (cost, added time to FI, desire to fill it, taxes, massive environmental impact, commute, risk due to job loss, etc), but I know that those concerns could be voiced to some degree at any level.

+ 100. Couldn't agree more.

Valhalla

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Re: Just bought my first house... a McMansion -- critique my justification
« Reply #113 on: April 11, 2015, 04:00:30 PM »
Wow! I appreciate all the feedback. I guarantee I'm not trolling.. this is my life and I prefer to talk about my situation and get advice. That's why I'm here!

Some updates since my original post, the home inspection went pretty well. There was about $5,000 worth of work that the inspector found and so we negotiated that money off the price of the house. The house is generally in good shape without major issues so that is a positive thing.

Thank you to everyone who's chimed in! Financially, I'm putting 10% down, and will have a conventional mortgage for $409,000@3.8% ++ a second mortgage@4.5% for the remainder. The good news is, I work in tech sales and should be getting an equity award + commission to help pay off the majority of the 2nd by the end of May.

I do work in the tech industry so it is possible I would get laid off. My hope (and judging by the number of LinkedIn recruiter reqeusts) is that I would be able to continue at my current or better salary. Obviously in a down market I could be screwed, so my plan is to invest/bank a ton until the next crash.
Question - why have you only rented so far? With your income you should have owned a starter house or lesser house before, before selling and upgrading to a house like this?

Most people don't just simply go from renting to an expensive house ownership. It's typically a series of steps.

Making such a big commitment with your job is a mistake.  Tech + Sales = unstability.  Tech changes rapidly, and sales is volatile.  You could find things change quickly.

On a scale of 1-10, I'd say this is a mistake of about 6 - 7.   

Buy a smaller / starter house, figure out how home ownership is like.  Your little kids in the next 3-5 years are not going to school, a good school district is irrelevant for the time being.

Having money in the bank does not suck.  You can always upgrade to a huge house later.  Buying a huge house now is kind of foolish.

You make good money, but I think people who make good money often lose their senses.  I've made six figures for a long time, but I've always acted as if I only made 1/3 of what I actually do.

10 years ago I had $100k in the bank, and I was paranoid as hell.  Today I am FI but I am still paranoid.

That said - you've got your mind made up, and you're going to go through with this decision. Best of luck.

I hope it all pans out for you but I think there is a high degree of probability that you may come to regret this decision.

lifejoy

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Re: Just bought my first house... a McMansion -- critique my justification
« Reply #114 on: April 11, 2015, 05:55:48 PM »
My parents bought the best house the could afford. 24 years later, they live in a fantastic community, and have neighbours that have become close friends.

If that's the kind of neighbourhood you bought into, perhaps it's worth it :)

Oh - and my parents retired at 55. Comfortably.

The White Coat Investor

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Re: Just bought my first house... a McMansion -- critique my justification
« Reply #115 on: April 11, 2015, 11:37:46 PM »
So, definitely not a Mustachian decision. I make around ~183,000/year and my fiancee makes $80,000 so we can afford it, but it will certainly put a dent in our early retirement dreams. From my spreadsheet, my retirement went from age 40 to age 47 by buying this house instead of a more modest one.

The only question here is whether or not you like your job and your house more than financial independence.

I also live in a McMansion like yours. My income is a multiple of yours, but it wasn't when I bought it. I'll probably still have it paid off in 10 years and I love the neighborhood, schools, views, location etc.

I recognize I could have retired earlier had I not bought it. But I actually have two jobs I love, neither of which I plan to quit in the next 5-10 years, and since I'll still be FI within 5 years (probably am already depending on how you look at it) despite buying the McMansion (and a boat, which is even stupider) I see it as a justifiable expense.

Here's the deal. At a certain point relatively early in life high earners like you and me can do one of three things- 1) we can give more money away, 2) we can spend more money on stuff that makes us happy, or 3) we can quit going to work as much (or at all.) You choose whichever one you think will make you the happiest. I've chosen a combination of all 3 rather than loading up on # 3. MMM and many other folks here chose # 3. That's fine too.

NICE!

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Re: Just bought my first house... a McMansion -- critique my justification
« Reply #116 on: April 12, 2015, 03:04:38 AM »
Here's the deal. At a certain point relatively early in life high earners like you and me can do one of three things- 1) we can give more money away, 2) we can spend more money on stuff that makes us happy, or 3) we can quit going to work as much (or at all.) You choose whichever one you think will make you the happiest. I've chosen a combination of all 3 rather than loading up on # 3. MMM and many other folks here chose # 3. That's fine too.

I'd say #1 is a way better choice than #2. I also don't believe that MMM chose #2 over #1 - I'm pretty sure he gives a decent amount of dough.

totoro

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Re: Just bought my first house... a McMansion -- critique my justification
« Reply #117 on: April 12, 2015, 11:05:28 AM »
This might prove to be a very wise financial move over the next ten years or so.  Wasn't housing appreciation 17% in this area last year and wasn't there a 40% decline previous? 

http://www.fortunebuilders.com/atlanta-real-estate-market-trends/

Mortgages have about the best ROI around when rates are low and appreciation is in play.  If you tried to save up your salary and buy a house outright you are not making the best investment decision to take advantage of cheap leverage.  Might be worth it for your peace of mind but it sure is not if you are looking at early retirement.

NICE!

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Re: Just bought my first house... a McMansion -- critique my justification
« Reply #118 on: April 12, 2015, 04:52:34 PM »
This might prove to be a very wise financial move over the next ten years or so.  Wasn't housing appreciation 17% in this area last year and wasn't there a 40% decline previous? 

http://www.fortunebuilders.com/atlanta-real-estate-market-trends/

Mortgages have about the best ROI around when rates are low and appreciation is in play.  If you tried to save up your salary and buy a house outright you are not making the best investment decision to take advantage of cheap leverage.  Might be worth it for your peace of mind but it sure is not if you are looking at early retirement.

Doubt they'll sell it, making the paper wealth gains irrelevant.

totoro

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Re: Just bought my first house... a McMansion -- critique my justification
« Reply #119 on: April 12, 2015, 06:46:12 PM »
Only if you never ever sell.  Doubtful.  That is how many downsize and retire.  Also, HELOCs allow you to take out equity to invest for a profit.  Completely relevant.

It is only if you treat the biggest purchase of your life as an economic nullity that it is irrelevant.