JP Morgan CEO can't explain how his low paid employee should budget her salary

[Simpleton]

I think what really gets me about this whole thread is the just utter disregard for personal accountability that MSM and most left-leaning commentators put on the situation.

-Unemployments has pretty much never been lower
-Wages have pretty much never been higher when including benefits
-Benefits continue to be more and more generous every year

So if someone cannot make it today, it says a lot more about that person than the country.

I am sure that some people genuinely fall through the cracks, but the fact is that MOST people in unfortunate situations put themselves there - and no one talks in a way that holds them accountable because its simply frowned upon to do so. Its always a sob story with excuses and rationals.

- housing costs are higher than ever
- medical insurance/ medical care costs have skyrocketed

are you even trying?
do you even...know people outside your bubble?

MM1970,

Adjusted for inflation (which includes housing and medical costs), wages are near their all time high. Wages adjusted for inflation have been on a steady upswing since the early 1990's. Wages were decreasing only between the 1970s and 1990s.

When you include employer provided benefits, wages ARE at an all time high.

Yet the bitching about how everything is terrible only started recently. Its just a narrative that has caught on which has very little basis in reality when looking at numbers.

[GuitarStv]

I'm not white and was even homeless at one point in my life, yet here I am, doing quite well.

I guess the system in place didn't do a good enough job suppressing me. That's probably why I don't have much sympathy for people who blame their circumstances on outside forces. Can it be harder to succeed depending on life's circumstances? Of course. But you will always get better results by focusing on how you can improve the individual, rather than trying to change the system.

Improving as an individual wouldn't help a woman become an engineer fifty years ago.  It wouldn't matter if she was the smartest person in the world.  She would be discounted at the interview and not hired because of her sex . . . since the system fundamentally undervalued women in technical careers.  Therefore, you do not always get better results by focusing on the individual.

FWIW, I don't have sympathy for people who blame their circumstances on outside forces.  But there don't appear to be any of those people in this thread.  Instead, there are people who can see outside forces that hold people back, and want to change that.  That is not a carte blanche to not try in life.  It's an attempt to help as many people as possible to become productive and contributing members of society.

[mathlete]

I'm not white and was even homeless at one point in my life, yet here I am, doing quite well.

I guess the system in place didn't do a good enough job suppressing me. That's probably why I don't have much sympathy for people who blame their circumstances on outside forces. Can it be harder to succeed depending on life's circumstances? Of course. But you will always get better results by focusing on how you can improve the individual, rather than trying to change the system.

On a person to person level, I agree with this. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to change the system to be better or more equitable. Changing the system and self-improvement aren't mutually exclusive.

[Cool Friend]

I think what really gets me about this whole thread is the just utter disregard for personal accountability that MSM and most left-leaning commentators put on the situation.

-Unemployments has pretty much never been lower
-Wages have pretty much never been higher when including benefits
-Benefits continue to be more and more generous every year

So if someone cannot make it today, it says a lot more about that person than the country.

I am sure that some people genuinely fall through the cracks, but the fact is that MOST people in unfortunate situations put themselves there - and no one talks in a way that holds them accountable because its simply frowned upon to do so. Its always a sob story with excuses and rationals.

- housing costs are higher than ever
- medical insurance/ medical care costs have skyrocketed

are you even trying?
do you even...know people outside your bubble?

MM1970,

Adjusted for inflation (which includes housing and medical costs), wages are near their all time high. Wages adjusted for inflation have been on a steady upswing since the early 1990's. Wages were decreasing only between the 1970s and 1990s.

When you include employer provided benefits, wages ARE at an all time high.

Yet the bitching about how everything is terrible only started recently. Its just a narrative that has caught on which has very little basis in reality when looking at numbers.

Too bad cost of living increased even more, crippling the purchasing power of the near all-time high wages.

[mathlete]

MM1970,

Adjusted for inflation (which includes housing and medical costs), wages are near their all time high. Wages adjusted for inflation have been on a steady upswing since the early 1990's. Wages were decreasing only between the 1970s and 1990s.

When you include employer provided benefits, wages ARE at an all time high.

Yet the bitching about how everything is terrible only started recently. Its just a narrative that has caught on which has very little basis in reality when looking at numbers.

Things should get better over time. It'd be alarming if they didn't. But I reject this as a rationale for why the few should take a larger and larger share of the productivity gains that everyone contributes to.

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/wkyeng.t01.htm Real median full time weekly earnings have risen by just 3% since 2010. Meanwhile, real earnings for S&P500 companies are 10% above their pre-recession highs.

Also, people have been fighting and complaining for better treatment since forever. So much of what we have is built upon those petitioned for better treatment. I say join in so that things are even more equitable for the people who come next.

[Simpleton]

MM1970,

Adjusted for inflation (which includes housing and medical costs), wages are near their all time high. Wages adjusted for inflation have been on a steady upswing since the early 1990's. Wages were decreasing only between the 1970s and 1990s.

When you include employer provided benefits, wages ARE at an all time high.

Yet the bitching about how everything is terrible only started recently. Its just a narrative that has caught on which has very little basis in reality when looking at numbers.

Things should get better over time. It'd be alarming if they didn't. But I reject this as a rationale for why the few should take a larger and larger share of the productivity gains that everyone contributes to.

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/wkyeng.t01.htm Real median full time weekly earnings have risen by just 3% since 2010. Meanwhile, real earnings for S&P500 companies are 10% above their pre-recession highs.

Also, people have been fighting and complaining for better treatment since forever. So much of what we have is built upon those petitioned for better treatment. I say join in so that things are even more equitable for the people who come next.

Sure I buy into the fact that everything could be better. I buy into the fact that everyone should have equal opportunity. I even buy into having strong social safety nets such that people do not fall through the cracks.

What I have a problem with is a narrative that ignores reality to paint current day as a barren waste-land filled with misery and despair due to everything being worse today for the every-man. I don't think its productive for anyone to start a conversation from a place that paints a false reality.

Are the rich getting richer? Yes. Is trickle down economics working for the middle class? Also Yes. Is it working to the extent we want? Debatable.

[mathlete]

Sure I buy into the fact that everything could be better. I buy into the fact that everyone should have equal opportunity. I even buy into having strong social safety nets such that people do not fall through the cracks.

What I have a problem with is a narrative that ignores reality to paint current day as a barren waste-land filled with misery and despair due to everything being worse today for the every-man. I don't think its productive for anyone to start a conversation from a place that paints a false reality.

Are the rich getting richer? Yes. Is trickle down economics working for the middle class? Also Yes. Is it working to the extent we want? Debatable.

I think the bold is a strawman.

Is trickle down economics working for the middle class? Also Yes.

I guess I'd ask you to define "working". I would say that middle class life is getting better in spite of trickle down economics, but perhaps that's beyond the scope of this discussion.

Incidentally, the latest round of United States trickle down economics, the TCJA, was ushered in on the strength of a movement whose central tenet was all about how everything today is worse for the every man. You may have your wires crossed with regards to who is talking about barren wastelands of misery and despair.

[Kyle Schuant]

Didn't MrUpwardlyMobile specify that the minimum wage doubled? The owner could afford to hire a highschool kid for, say, $7 an hour. He probably can't justify the expense at $14 an hour, unless his business has boomed.

In Australia, the minimum wage varies by age. The argument is that kids are less productive than adults, need closer supervision and so on. We can argue about individuals and the exact fraction, but it's broadly true.


The adult rate is $18.93ph, but,


Under 16yo 36.8% of that or $6.97
16yo 47.3%
17yo 57.8%
18yo 68.3%
19yo 82.5%
20yo 97.7%
and 21yo and over have the full rate.


So there are still plenty of young people getting their first job. The bad side is that shifts at McDs mysteriously dry up as the kid hits 18 or so. But they're getting their start into the employed world.


MrUpwardlyMobile's business buddy probably just ran things badly. Even in countries with no minimum wage at all, businesses still die. Sometimes people just aren't very good at their jobs, including running the business they've run for years. As a small business owner, I am constantly astounded at how badly people do things and yet still manage to make money. Occasionally it catches up with them. Of course, it is never their fault.


It's amusing to me that the same people who preach about personal responsibility when it comes to employees, when it comes to business owners say, "oh but it's the laws... the regulations... the red tape... taxes... bad staff..." Why is my success or failure all down to me unless I'm running a business, then while my success still shows my brilliance, if I fail then it's The System?


The truth is that systems - whether official systems like government, or unofficial systems like Old Boy's Networks - can help or hinder people, but people do have responsibility for themselves, too. And if I have much, then I have a responsibility to give back. All the great religious and humanist traditions speak much about charity. In my faith of Judaism, the greatest charity is to give a person a job. One who takes over a company with many employees has a profound responsibility. "Cut 100 staff" may mean destroying 100 households, probably a few divorces, even a suicide or two - even if it means a $1 million bonus for the CEO. Typically, CEOs come from backgrounds where they did not have to drag themselves up by their bootstraps, so they don't appreciate the power of their position to make or destroy lives.


There's an old racist joke that's also an anti-racist joke, if you think about it. "How do you stop a [racial expletive] from drowning? Take your foot off his neck." There are certainly factors holding people down, and some people are helped up, and others are not.

[Bloop Bloop]

"MrUpwardlyMobile's business buddy probably just ran things badly."

I'm not sure about that. One of my buddies runs a cafe and he won't hire anyone over 21 (although he'll keep existing employees if they're good) because he doesn't believe Australians in most low-end jobs are worth what they're paid.

I tend to agree. On the open market, I think a lot of service jobs are truly worth about $12-$15/hour (that is what you get freelancing/gig economy/Uber) and that's all I'd be willing to pay if I ran that sort of business. I think the inflated minimum wage means that most jobs up to about $25/hour are being artificially boosted by the min wage. The min wage is only $18-$19/hour but obviously it has a flow-in effect to all jobs paying around $20/$25/hour

I think most people in that pay bracket aren't worth their nominal wage when you factor in ease of off-shoring, contracting and using gig economy.

You're not a bad businessman if you think this way. There's no law that says to be a good businessman you have to do X or Y or Z. All you have to do is follow the law. You can choose to hire young people, use contractors, take advantage of the gig economy, offshore (in certain industries), do the work yourself, or do it via family or associates. There are many ways to run a business.

[crybaby]

"MrUpwardlyMobile's business buddy probably just ran things badly."

I'm not sure about that. One of my buddies runs a cafe and he won't hire anyone over 21 (although he'll keep existing employees if they're good) because he doesn't believe Australians in most low-end jobs are worth what they're paid.

I tend to agree. On the open market, I think a lot of service jobs are truly worth about $12-$15/hour (that is what you get freelancing/gig economy/Uber) and that's all I'd be willing to pay if I ran that sort of business. I think the inflated minimum wage means that most jobs up to about $25/hour are being artificially boosted by the min wage. The min wage is only $18-$19/hour but obviously it has a flow-in effect to all jobs paying around $20/$25/hour

I think most people in that pay bracket aren't worth their nominal wage when you factor in ease of off-shoring, contracting and using gig economy.

You're not a bad businessman if you think this way. There's no law that says to be a good businessman you have to do X or Y or Z. All you have to do is follow the law. You can choose to hire young people, use contractors, take advantage of the gig economy, offshore (in certain industries), do the work yourself, or do it via family or associates. There are many ways to run a business.

If what keeps your friend bussiness alive is that percentage from the young employees paycheck, it must be a hell of a bussiness.

There will be a time where many of this toughts "I think most people in that pay bracket aren't worth their nominal wage when you factor in ease of off-shoring, contracting and using gig economy." will backfire.

Some of the people that think this can easily be called in the office in a few years to learn that they "aren't worth their nominal wage when you factor in ease of off-shoring, contracting and using gig economy", so you're out.

[MrUpwardlyMobile]

"MrUpwardlyMobile's business buddy probably just ran things badly."

I'm not sure about that. One of my buddies runs a cafe and he won't hire anyone over 21 (although he'll keep existing employees if they're good) because he doesn't believe Australians in most low-end jobs are worth what they're paid.

I tend to agree. On the open market, I think a lot of service jobs are truly worth about $12-$15/hour (that is what you get freelancing/gig economy/Uber) and that's all I'd be willing to pay if I ran that sort of business. I think the inflated minimum wage means that most jobs up to about $25/hour are being artificially boosted by the min wage. The min wage is only $18-$19/hour but obviously it has a flow-in effect to all jobs paying around $20/$25/hour

I think most people in that pay bracket aren't worth their nominal wage when you factor in ease of off-shoring, contracting and using gig economy.

You're not a bad businessman if you think this way. There's no law that says to be a good businessman you have to do X or Y or Z. All you have to do is follow the law. You can choose to hire young people, use contractors, take advantage of the gig economy, offshore (in certain industries), do the work yourself, or do it via family or associates. There are many ways to run a business.

If what keeps your friend bussiness alive is that percentage from the young employees paycheck, it must be a hell of a bussiness.

There will be a time where many of this toughts "I think most people in that pay bracket aren't worth their nominal wage when you factor in ease of off-shoring, contracting and using gig economy." will backfire.

Some of the people that think this can easily be called in the office in a few years to learn that they "aren't worth their nominal wage when you factor in ease of off-shoring, contracting and using gig economy", so you're out.

It’s not the difference in the business failing or not. It’s whether the work suddenly became worth more than double the cost.  It’s not worth double the cost so the job doesn’t exist. The work is divided amongst the owner and existing employees.

[Bloop Bloop]

"MrUpwardlyMobile's business buddy probably just ran things badly."

I'm not sure about that. One of my buddies runs a cafe and he won't hire anyone over 21 (although he'll keep existing employees if they're good) because he doesn't believe Australians in most low-end jobs are worth what they're paid.

I tend to agree. On the open market, I think a lot of service jobs are truly worth about $12-$15/hour (that is what you get freelancing/gig economy/Uber) and that's all I'd be willing to pay if I ran that sort of business. I think the inflated minimum wage means that most jobs up to about $25/hour are being artificially boosted by the min wage. The min wage is only $18-$19/hour but obviously it has a flow-in effect to all jobs paying around $20/$25/hour

I think most people in that pay bracket aren't worth their nominal wage when you factor in ease of off-shoring, contracting and using gig economy.

You're not a bad businessman if you think this way. There's no law that says to be a good businessman you have to do X or Y or Z. All you have to do is follow the law. You can choose to hire young people, use contractors, take advantage of the gig economy, offshore (in certain industries), do the work yourself, or do it via family or associates. There are many ways to run a business.

If what keeps your friend bussiness alive is that percentage from the young employees paycheck, it must be a hell of a bussiness.

There will be a time where many of this toughts "I think most people in that pay bracket aren't worth their nominal wage when you factor in ease of off-shoring, contracting and using gig economy." will backfire.

Some of the people that think this can easily be called in the office in a few years to learn that they "aren't worth their nominal wage when you factor in ease of off-shoring, contracting and using gig economy", so you're out.

Again, no one ever said that this is what keeps a business alive. This is what keeps a business optimally profitable.

As for "there will be a time when the cows come home" - the usual rejoinder to the pro-business argument - I suspect a lot of us are more than happy to take that risk. I reckon someone with good smarts, business skills and intelligence is always going to be the one offshoring, not the one offshored.

[Kyle Schuant]

I'm not sure about that. One of my buddies runs a cafe and he won't hire anyone over 21 (although he'll keep existing employees if they're good) because he doesn't believe Australians in most low-end jobs are worth what they're paid.

I was once friends with a guy who told us that everyone he worked with was an idiot, and his boss was stupid.
"Sounds terrible. You should get a new job."
"Yeah, I will."
(Three months later).
"How's the new job?"
"Everyone I work with is an idiot, and my boss is stupid."
"Mate... maybe it's you."
He didn't like that much.

And we've all known the guy who went through a lot of women...
"They're all sluts, mate, all bitches."
"All of them? Or is it you?"
"Fuck off, cunt."

The common element in all the employees your buddy has had is... him. Some people are able to get the best from people, some aren't. I say this as someone who has run teams in the army, in commercial kitchens, and in gyms - and I've done it badly, and done it well.

There are many ways to run a business.

There are. And most new businesses fail. There are fewer ways to run a successful business. Generally speaking, if someone tells you "all my successes are to my credit, all my failures are someone else's fault," you know he's failing.  In fine, one of the ways to fail is to go through a lot of staff in a short time, not train anyone or offer them secure work with a career path, and then just say, "well all X are lazy and stupid, plus the minimum wage is too high."