Author Topic: JP Morgan CEO can't explain how his low paid employee should budget her salary  (Read 39602 times)

Suze456

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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2019/apr/11/jp-morgan-ceo-cant-explain-how-one-of-his-low-paid-employees-should-budget-her-salary-video?fbclid=IwAR3LAfSZNTo9NpuRbT3Z3Aa8kcbm-0SlFzvTezlczOtHJuT8fl76BY99_CQ

I found this thought provoking. Any opinions?

 In an ideal world, there would be 2 parents etc...but life is not ideal. Do employers have a responsibility to provide a living wage?

I'm not in the US and welfare would be higher here ..but there would still be similar stories.

 I would call a $40 cell phone bill a month a luxury but most wouldn't...and should people have to live without what is considered standard now?



wageslave23

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I can't watch the video right now, but its probably the same argument as Walmart, fast food etc.  I don't understand the concept that employers should have to make sure that you can pay all of your expenses.  Employment is at will for both the employee and employer in the US.  So if you don't want a job at the amount that they are willing to pay, then don't work there. 

J Boogie

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I have a few thoughts.

More and more people are starting to see that low skilled workers might need to be paid significantly more than their work is worth as the negative externalities of market-rate labor for this squeezed class begin to cause major issues.

I also think the increasingly global economy has exacerbated regional urban poverty (in addition to rural, which is what we hear most about). Major cities across the world but especially the US become investment hotspots for wealthy foreigners who often buy without any intention to rent - they just want a safe place to park their capital. That means rental investors have to pay more for properties and thus have to charge more for rent, and these empty investment properties do the opposite of providing affordable housing. So you're not just competing for housing with your fellow local wage earners, you're competing with enormous foreign wealth.


BlueHouse

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I think a full-time job should always have basic benefits (health insurance, paid time off to be used for vacation, sick and holidays) and I also think a full-time job should never be so low-paid that the employee would qualify for welfare, food stamps, or any other kind of government benefit.  If you're a company benefiting from an employee's full-time labor, then you have a responsibility to pay that person enough so that the government is not subsidizing your business.

It astounds me that anyone would see the employee as the problem instead of the employer, who is clearly gaming the system to get cheap labor, while the taxpayers are picking up the bill.  Walmart can go fuck themselves.   

cassafrass

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My first thought is that this mother could cut her budget pretty significantly if she put a little effort into it:

$1600/mo for an apartment may be the average for Irvine, but based on my personal experience of living in southern California, that average is skewed by the abundance of fancy pants condos that Californians love so dearly. I'm guessing that she'd be able to find something significantly less than that if she's willing to forego stainless steel, granite and a dishwasher. When I looked at the San Diego real estate market though the lens of my rustbelt upbringing, I found an amazing house to rent at about 20% below the market - sure, it had dingy carpet and an outdated kitchen, but it was 4 blocks from the beach baby!

Plus, $400 for gas for one car seems a little outrageous to me. But at least she doesn't have a car payment.

My second thought is that the story does tug on the heartstrings because no one wants to think about a 6-year old sleeping in the same bedroom as her mom while eating raman noodles every night for dinner.

bacchi

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I think a full-time job should always have basic benefits (health insurance, paid time off to be used for vacation, sick and holidays) and I also think a full-time job should never be so low-paid that the employee would qualify for welfare, food stamps, or any other kind of government benefit.  If you're a company benefiting from an employee's full-time labor, then you have a responsibility to pay that person enough so that the government is not subsidizing your business.

It astounds me that anyone would see the employee as the problem instead of the employer, who is clearly gaming the system to get cheap labor, while the taxpayers are picking up the bill.  Walmart can go fuck themselves.

Word.

@cassafrass  Yeah, the $400 for car gas/maintenance is high and could be cut in half. Getting a lower cost apartment is also possible (though her kid needs to go a decent school, too). But, even then, this cashier would be break even without including clothes, school lunches and supplies, medical expenses, etc. Oh, and after school day care wasn't included either.

Chase made $34,000 profit for each employee. Surely it can spare $5k for its lowest paid.

Imma

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I can't watch the video right now, but its probably the same argument as Walmart, fast food etc.  I don't understand the concept that employers should have to make sure that you can pay all of your expenses.  Employment is at will for both the employee and employer in the US.  So if you don't want a job at the amount that they are willing to pay, then don't work there.

So major employers paying less than the living wage aren't taking advantage of their workers in your opinion? Don't you think that if those workers had any other options they'd work for an employer who clearly doesn't care about their welfare?

I think it's an absolute disgrace if employees can't afford a basic lifestyle while working one fulltime job. That should be enough to cover rent for a modest apartment, utilities, food, health insurance and yes, shock, even internet, phone etc, all those "luxuries" that are really necessities these days.

Also, as a tax payer I feel strongly that we shouldn't let CEO's and shareholders get away with burdening society instead of taking a pay cut themselves.

Papa bear

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Looks like that employee could learn something on this forum!  Quick search showed lower priced housing in the area, and 400/month food budget for 2 people is well above others here with 4 people. 

I get that it might not be a living wage, but everyone can cherry pick numbers. 


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wageslave23

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I can't watch the video right now, but its probably the same argument as Walmart, fast food etc.  I don't understand the concept that employers should have to make sure that you can pay all of your expenses.  Employment is at will for both the employee and employer in the US.  So if you don't want a job at the amount that they are willing to pay, then don't work there.

So major employers paying less than the living wage aren't taking advantage of their workers in your opinion? Don't you think that if those workers had any other options they'd work for an employer who clearly doesn't care about their welfare?

I think it's an absolute disgrace if employees can't afford a basic lifestyle while working one fulltime job. That should be enough to cover rent for a modest apartment, utilities, food, health insurance and yes, shock, even internet, phone etc, all those "luxuries" that are really necessities these days.

Also, as a tax payer I feel strongly that we shouldn't let CEO's and shareholders get away with burdening society instead of taking a pay cut themselves.

When I hire a painter to paint my house, I don't ask him how many kids he has or what kind of rent he pays.  I ask him how much he charges to paint the house.  If I disagree with the quote, I tell him I will pay X amount.  He can then decide to paint my house for X amount or not.  It also doesn't matter whether I make $20,000 a year or $20M when this negotiation takes place.  Employers are the same way.  The alternative is the major company decides that paying a "living wage" for a specific job is not worth it and they sub it out overseas for a quarter of the cost.  Now the employee has no job and $0 income.  Anyone who has an issue with the amount another person pays their employees is free to start their own business and pay said employees whatever their heart's content.

jlcnuke

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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2019/apr/11/jp-morgan-ceo-cant-explain-how-one-of-his-low-paid-employees-should-budget-her-salary-video?fbclid=IwAR3LAfSZNTo9NpuRbT3Z3Aa8kcbm-0SlFzvTezlczOtHJuT8fl76BY99_CQ

I found this thought provoking. Any opinions?

 In an ideal world, there would be 2 parents etc...but life is not ideal. Do employers have a responsibility to provide a living wage?

I'm not in the US and welfare would be higher here ..but there would still be similar stories.

 I would call a $40 cell phone bill a month a luxury but most wouldn't...and should people have to live without what is considered standard now?

No, employers don't have a responsibility to provide a "living wage". Employers have a responsibility to provide safe working conditions. Employers have a responsibility to pay reasonable market wages that will attract employees to take the job. Employers have a responsibility to not violate discrimination laws etc.

Employers do not have the responsibility to ensure that their employee's life choices can be financed with the pay their position earns.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 02:53:55 PM by jlcnuke »

jps

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I can't watch the video right now, but its probably the same argument as Walmart, fast food etc.  I don't understand the concept that employers should have to make sure that you can pay all of your expenses.  Employment is at will for both the employee and employer in the US.  So if you don't want a job at the amount that they are willing to pay, then don't work there.

So major employers paying less than the living wage aren't taking advantage of their workers in your opinion? Don't you think that if those workers had any other options they'd work for an employer who clearly doesn't care about their welfare?

I think it's an absolute disgrace if employees can't afford a basic lifestyle while working one fulltime job. That should be enough to cover rent for a modest apartment, utilities, food, health insurance and yes, shock, even internet, phone etc, all those "luxuries" that are really necessities these days.

Also, as a tax payer I feel strongly that we shouldn't let CEO's and shareholders get away with burdening society instead of taking a pay cut themselves.

When I hire a painter to paint my house, I don't ask him how many kids he has or what kind of rent he pays.  I ask him how much he charges to paint the house.  If I disagree with the quote, I tell him I will pay X amount.  He can then decide to paint my house for X amount or not.  It also doesn't matter whether I make $20,000 a year or $20M when this negotiation takes place.  Employers are the same way.  The alternative is the major company decides that paying a "living wage" for a specific job is not worth it and they sub it out overseas for a quarter of the cost.  Now the employee has no job and $0 income.  Anyone who has an issue with the amount another person pays their employees is free to start their own business and pay said employees whatever their heart's content.

Great points, WAGE SLAVE :)

Laserjet3051

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I can't watch the video right now, but its probably the same argument as Walmart, fast food etc.  I don't understand the concept that employers should have to make sure that you can pay all of your expenses.  Employment is at will for both the employee and employer in the US.  So if you don't want a job at the amount that they are willing to pay, then don't work there.

So major employers paying less than the living wage aren't taking advantage of their workers in your opinion? Don't you think that if those workers had any other options they'd work for an employer who clearly doesn't care about their welfare?

I think it's an absolute disgrace if employees can't afford a basic lifestyle while working one fulltime job. That should be enough to cover rent for a modest apartment, utilities, food, health insurance and yes, shock, even internet, phone etc, all those "luxuries" that are really necessities these days.

Also, as a tax payer I feel strongly that we shouldn't let CEO's and shareholders get away with burdening society instead of taking a pay cut themselves.

When I hire a painter to paint my house, I don't ask him how many kids he has or what kind of rent he pays.  I ask him how much he charges to paint the house.  If I disagree with the quote, I tell him I will pay X amount.  He can then decide to paint my house for X amount or not.  It also doesn't matter whether I make $20,000 a year or $20M when this negotiation takes place.  Employers are the same way.  The alternative is the major company decides that paying a "living wage" for a specific job is not worth it and they sub it out overseas for a quarter of the cost.  Now the employee has no job and $0 income.  Anyone who has an issue with the amount another person pays their employees is free to start their own business and pay said employees whatever their heart's content.

Spot on and well said.

jlcnuke

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I can't watch the video right now, but its probably the same argument as Walmart, fast food etc.  I don't understand the concept that employers should have to make sure that you can pay all of your expenses.  Employment is at will for both the employee and employer in the US.  So if you don't want a job at the amount that they are willing to pay, then don't work there.

So major employers paying less than the living wage aren't taking advantage of their workers in your opinion? Don't you think that if those workers had any other options they'd work for an employer who clearly doesn't care about their welfare?

I think it's an absolute disgrace if employees can't afford a basic lifestyle while working one fulltime job. That should be enough to cover rent for a modest apartment, utilities, food, health insurance and yes, shock, even internet, phone etc, all those "luxuries" that are really necessities these days.

Also, as a tax payer I feel strongly that we shouldn't let CEO's and shareholders get away with burdening society instead of taking a pay cut themselves.

When I hire a painter to paint my house, I don't ask him how many kids he has or what kind of rent he pays.  I ask him how much he charges to paint the house.  If I disagree with the quote, I tell him I will pay X amount.  He can then decide to paint my house for X amount or not.  It also doesn't matter whether I make $20,000 a year or $20M when this negotiation takes place.  Employers are the same way.  The alternative is the major company decides that paying a "living wage" for a specific job is not worth it and they sub it out overseas for a quarter of the cost.  Now the employee has no job and $0 income.  Anyone who has an issue with the amount another person pays their employees is free to start their own business and pay said employees whatever their heart's content.

Well said.

Prairie Stash

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Cheap political stunting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_the_United_States
The federal government currently sets the minmum wage at $7.25. Every State also has the power to set its own wage. For a politician to take others to task over something they have control over...its a political stunt. In California, the local government sets it higher. I wonder why she doesn't mention that part?

I may think its distasteful that the CEO makes so much compared to the tellers, but that does not absolve politicians. I'm in favour of paying more, but in this case it was underhanded to try to pretend to be altruistic.

Imma

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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2019/apr/11/jp-morgan-ceo-cant-explain-how-one-of-his-low-paid-employees-should-budget-her-salary-video?fbclid=IwAR3LAfSZNTo9NpuRbT3Z3Aa8kcbm-0SlFzvTezlczOtHJuT8fl76BY99_CQ

I found this thought provoking. Any opinions?

 In an ideal world, there would be 2 parents etc...but life is not ideal. Do employers have a responsibility to provide a living wage?

I'm not in the US and welfare would be higher here ..but there would still be similar stories.

 I would call a $40 cell phone bill a month a luxury but most wouldn't...and should people have to live without what is considered standard now?

No, employers don't have a responsibility to provide a "living wage". Employers have a responsibility to provide safe working conditions. Employers have a responsibility to pay reasonable market wages that will attract employees to take the job. Employers have a responsibility to not violate discrimination laws etc.

Employers do not have the responsibility to ensure that their employee's life choices can be financed with the pay their position earns.

So, if a company chooses to pay it's employees a wage that is low enough that the employee qualifies for food stamps (so the wage is below poverty level) it is acceptable to you that a company burdens society with the cost of food stamps while the company pockets the extra profits that they can make only because food stamps exist? Food stamps and other measures aimed at extremely low income workers are basically a subsidy from the tax payer to big companies. I don't see how the poverty level is a lifestyle choice.

To use the parallel with safe working conditions, which you do seem to believe is an employer's responsability: if legally a worker can be exposed to 100 units of a certain toxin, but we know that in fact 80 is the safe level of exposure, should employers aim for 100 or for 80?

I also don't buy the "if we set rules jobs will go to China" argument. Most jobs can not be easily moved to China (and the jobs that could be moved to lower income countries have been moved already). If that's the argument we might as well not set any labour laws at all.

Kyle Schuant

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Do employers have a responsibility to provide a living wage?
In Australia, the minimum wage is set annually by a tribunal. Following the Harvester decision over a century ago, it has been established that the minimum wage, if earned full-time, should be sufficient to allow a man to support a wife and three children in lives of "frugal comfort" and participate as a person in a civilised society. Or as Higgins put it,

"The standard of 'fair and reasonable' must therefore be something else, and I cannot think of any other standard appropriate than the normal needs of an average employee, regarded as a human being in a civilised community. If, instead of individual bargaining, one can conceive of a collective agreement – an agreement between all the employers in a given trade on the one side, and all the employees on the other – it seems to me that the framers of the agreement would have to take as the first and dominant factor the cost of living as a civilised being. If A lets B have the use of his horses on the terms that he gives them fair and reasonable treatment, I have no doubt that it is B's duty to give them proper food and water, and such shelter and rest as they need; and, as wages are the means of obtaining commodities, surely the State in stipulating for fair and reasonable remuneration for the employees means that the wages shall be sufficient to provide these things, and clothing and a condition of frugal comfort estimated by current human standards."


Which is to say, that workers should be treated at least as well as you would an animal. I realise that this is not a philosophy shared in all countries, but that's the standard we have here.


Of course, the setting of this number each year will have many factors. It would be reasonable, for example, to consider that a dual-income family is much more common than it was a century ago, and so the minimum wage perhaps needn't be as high because of that. There are many factors, but the welfare of businesspeople is not the primary concern.


It is worth mentioning that Australia with twice the minimum wage of the US also has lower unemployment, and has had uninterrupted economic growth with no recessions for a quarter-century now. So a rise in minimum wage need not lead to economic collapse. Obviously minimum wages are not the only factor here. Just as obviously, doubling any cost or tax or price overnight will have bad effects. But a gradual rise - well, businesses would adapt.

cloudsail

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I mean, the woman has an entrance level job that only requires a high school graduate level. While I also think that CEO wages are despicable, I do believe that people need to be responsible for their life choices. This person doesn't have the education or the skills to support a family, and yet decided to have a kid. Why does she need a minivan? $1600 for one room in an apartment seems like a lot, even for Irvine. Plus as a low income single mother, it's hard to imagine that she wouldn't be eligible for any number of government programs. I knew a single mom in Palo Alto who owned a huge house and still got free diapers, etc. If she made some frugal spending adjustments, she could definitely get by while doing well enough at her entrance level job to get a promotion and a raise. That's why it's called entrance level, you're not supposed to be there forever.

The job market is supply and demand, just like everything else. If everyone could be CEO, well, then the world would be full of CEOs.

Adam Zapple

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What a charade.  Pointless political grandstanding.
Companies will pay unskilled or lesser skilled employees as low a wage as they legally can.  If they don't, their competition will.  It is up to the government to set labor laws to combat this.   

You can spin this mother's story how you'd like but I see it as a positive.  She is a single mother who never held a job, despite being old enough to have a six year old.  She has managed to land an entry level job at a large multinational corporation where she will collect a paycheck and gain skills to help her earn more. 


Simpleton

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I think a full-time job should always have basic benefits (health insurance, paid time off to be used for vacation, sick and holidays) and I also think a full-time job should never be so low-paid that the employee would qualify for welfare, food stamps, or any other kind of government benefit.  If you're a company benefiting from an employee's full-time labor, then you have a responsibility to pay that person enough so that the government is not subsidizing your business.

It astounds me that anyone would see the employee as the problem instead of the employer, who is clearly gaming the system to get cheap labor, while the taxpayers are picking up the bill.  Walmart can go fuck themselves.

It is not the role of a business to be mommy and daddy for adults. Adults should be mature and responsible enough to enter into voluntary employment which can provide enough for themselves. If they cannot, there are government programs designed to ensure people do not fall through the cracks. Social safety nets are the responsibility of the citizens of society (ie. taxpayers/voters) who deem what amount of support is sufficient. McDonalds is there to serve you greasy burgers and fries, Walmart is there to sell you cheap groceries and clothes, they are not charities and they should not be expected to be some sort of replacement for welfare.

If you want higher wages, vote for higher minimum wages, that is the responsibility of citizens. Do not set the rules and then get angry when companies very clearly play by the rules.


Kyle Schuant

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That's an interesting idea, that the state is responsible for giving you a living even if you do nothing productive all day, but the company you're working for and which you add value to isn't. I'm not sure how that works philosophically unless you're a communist.

Bloop Bloop

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Couldn't care less. It's not for the CEO to do another person's finances, or vice versa.

$40 for a phone bill is ridiculous. I pay $16 a month for my service plan and it gives me more data/calls than I could realistically use.

$1600 (USD) a month for an apartment is also ridiculous - that's more than the imputed rent of my current home, and I'm doing pretty well financially. If you're poor, live somewhere modest.

Anyway, if you don't like your pay, move. If you can't, well, you're stuck. Life is there for those with skills and initiative.

Parizade

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Looks like that employee could learn something on this forum!  Quick search showed lower priced housing in the area, and 400/month food budget for 2 people is well above others here with 4 people. 

I get that it might not be a living wage, but everyone can cherry pick numbers. 


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Perhaps this would be another good humanitarian effort for Mustachians, free budget counseling for the working poor. I'm sure we could find some challenging case studies and it would be interesting social experiment.

Alfred J Quack

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Couldn't care less. It's not for the CEO to do another person's finances, or vice versa.

$40 for a phone bill is ridiculous. I pay $16 a month for my service plan and it gives me more data/calls than I could realistically use.

$1600 (USD) a month for an apartment is also ridiculous - that's more than the imputed rent of my current home, and I'm doing pretty well financially. If you're poor, live somewhere modest.

Anyway, if you don't like your pay, move. If you can't, well, you're stuck. Life is there for those with skills and initiative.

My thoughts exactly.

Though the 1600/month is for a 1BR if I recall correctly so that's pretty modest if in an expensive area. Couple that with the high car-bill and I think the person in question has made some interesting life choices.

jlcnuke

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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2019/apr/11/jp-morgan-ceo-cant-explain-how-one-of-his-low-paid-employees-should-budget-her-salary-video?fbclid=IwAR3LAfSZNTo9NpuRbT3Z3Aa8kcbm-0SlFzvTezlczOtHJuT8fl76BY99_CQ

I found this thought provoking. Any opinions?

 In an ideal world, there would be 2 parents etc...but life is not ideal. Do employers have a responsibility to provide a living wage?

I'm not in the US and welfare would be higher here ..but there would still be similar stories.

 I would call a $40 cell phone bill a month a luxury but most wouldn't...and should people have to live without what is considered standard now?

No, employers don't have a responsibility to provide a "living wage". Employers have a responsibility to provide safe working conditions. Employers have a responsibility to pay reasonable market wages that will attract employees to take the job. Employers have a responsibility to not violate discrimination laws etc.

Employers do not have the responsibility to ensure that their employee's life choices can be financed with the pay their position earns.

So, if a company chooses to pay it's employees a wage that is low enough that the employee qualifies for food stamps (so the wage is below poverty level) it is acceptable to you that a company burdens society with the cost of food stamps while the company pockets the extra profits that they can make only because food stamps exist? Food stamps and other measures aimed at extremely low income workers are basically a subsidy from the tax payer to big companies. I don't see how the poverty level is a lifestyle choice.

To use the parallel with safe working conditions, which you do seem to believe is an employer's responsability: if legally a worker can be exposed to 100 units of a certain toxin, but we know that in fact 80 is the safe level of exposure, should employers aim for 100 or for 80?

I also don't buy the "if we set rules jobs will go to China" argument. Most jobs can not be easily moved to China (and the jobs that could be moved to lower income countries have been moved already). If that's the argument we might as well not set any labour laws at all.

The company isn't burdening anyone with anything. The company is offering an income in exchange for work.

The low-income worker that chooses to have kids they can't afford, chooses to not find a living situation they can afford, etc is the one burdening society. Put the blame where it belongs. JP Morgan didn't make someone a single mother living on their own, that was the result of the decisions made by the single mother living on her own or unfortunate circumstances. Blame her or the tragedy that caused her situation if we have to supplement her income due to her choices or that tragedy.

use2betrix

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Everyone here keeps mentioning CEO’s and their huge salaries, but how about small business owners? There’s a lot of small businesses (like restaurants/coffee shops) who would simply go out of business if minimum wage was doubled.

Would we be better off having these businesses with lower wages shut down and then the employees have to find work elsewhere, as opposed to paying them less? These employees already have the option of working elsewhere, but they don’t. That, or they’d have to raise their prices so much in comparison that who knows if they could continue to stay in business.

For most company’s, I’d expect the increase wage cost would be directly passed on to the customers, just reducing the value of our dollar. Plus, people who make a small to medium amount over minimum wage now will also expect their wage to rise accordingly.

There’s also the option of harder labor jobs that pay more for most people. Granted, it also seems we live in a culture where people feel they also deserve to sit on their butt in the AC all day.

PoutineLover

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I believe that a full time minimum wage job should provide enough money that a person would not have to resort to food stamps or other government programs to feed themselves. If employers need government subsidies for their lowest paid employees to operate, while making a huge profit and paying obscene amounts to their top executives, something is wrong with their pay structure. I also don't think it's unreasonable to expect it to be enough to feed and house one adult and one child, assuming an average family would have 2 jobs, 2 parents, 2 kids.
The video was posed as a gotcha though, and there was no reasonable answer he could give on the spot like that. My immediate thought was that she shouldn't be spending over half of her income on rent, but I have no idea what the rental market is like in her city.
As citizens of a country, it's worth looking at our laws and seeing if they reflect the society we would like to have. Some views expressed here are a bit abhorrent to me, they have no sympathy whatsoever for the poor, and the circumstances that could lead there. A minimum wage is absolutely needed to prevent abuse and downright slavery, which employers would do if they legally could, I have no doubt.

Bucksandreds

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I think a full-time job should always have basic benefits (health insurance, paid time off to be used for vacation, sick and holidays) and I also think a full-time job should never be so low-paid that the employee would qualify for welfare, food stamps, or any other kind of government benefit.  If you're a company benefiting from an employee's full-time labor, then you have a responsibility to pay that person enough so that the government is not subsidizing your business.

It astounds me that anyone would see the employee as the problem instead of the employer, who is clearly gaming the system to get cheap labor, while the taxpayers are picking up the bill.  Walmart can go fuck themselves.

+1000.  We need to vote the Republicans out in 2020

Bucksandreds

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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2019/apr/11/jp-morgan-ceo-cant-explain-how-one-of-his-low-paid-employees-should-budget-her-salary-video?fbclid=IwAR3LAfSZNTo9NpuRbT3Z3Aa8kcbm-0SlFzvTezlczOtHJuT8fl76BY99_CQ

I found this thought provoking. Any opinions?

 In an ideal world, there would be 2 parents etc...but life is not ideal. Do employers have a responsibility to provide a living wage?

I'm not in the US and welfare would be higher here ..but there would still be similar stories.

 I would call a $40 cell phone bill a month a luxury but most wouldn't...and should people have to live without what is considered standard now?

No, employers don't have a responsibility to provide a "living wage". Employers have a responsibility to provide safe working conditions. Employers have a responsibility to pay reasonable market wages that will attract employees to take the job. Employers have a responsibility to not violate discrimination laws etc.

Employers do not have the responsibility to ensure that their employee's life choices can be financed with the pay their position earns.

So, if a company chooses to pay it's employees a wage that is low enough that the employee qualifies for food stamps (so the wage is below poverty level) it is acceptable to you that a company burdens society with the cost of food stamps while the company pockets the extra profits that they can make only because food stamps exist? Food stamps and other measures aimed at extremely low income workers are basically a subsidy from the tax payer to big companies. I don't see how the poverty level is a lifestyle choice.

To use the parallel with safe working conditions, which you do seem to believe is an employer's responsability: if legally a worker can be exposed to 100 units of a certain toxin, but we know that in fact 80 is the safe level of exposure, should employers aim for 100 or for 80?

I also don't buy the "if we set rules jobs will go to China" argument. Most jobs can not be easily moved to China (and the jobs that could be moved to lower income countries have been moved already). If that's the argument we might as well not set any labour laws at all.

Bravo

Alfred J Quack

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Everyone here keeps mentioning CEO’s and their huge salaries, but how about small business owners? There’s a lot of small businesses (like restaurants/coffee shops) who would simply go out of business if minimum wage was doubled.

Would we be better off having these businesses with lower wages shut down and then the employees have to find work elsewhere, as opposed to paying them less? These employees already have the option of working elsewhere, but they don’t. That, or they’d have to raise their prices so much in comparison that who knows if they could continue to stay in business.

For most company’s, I’d expect the increase wage cost would be directly passed on to the customers, just reducing the value of our dollar. Plus, people who make a small to medium amount over minimum wage now will also expect their wage to rise accordingly.

There’s also the option of harder labor jobs that pay more for most people. Granted, it also seems we live in a culture where people feel they also deserve to sit on their butt in the AC all day.

What i've always found strange is that some restaurants don't need to pay minimum wage and that the customers have to cough up the difference with tips:
Both server and bartender roles function as tipped positions, meaning that the majority of their payment comes from tips. The minimum wage for tipped positions according to the Fair Labor Standards Act is $2.13, but other requirements vary by state.

My wife works in a restaurant and most of the time customers are angry at her because of errors in the kitchen. Luckily she has a base salary and the tip-jar is spread evenly among all personel.

My cousing used to work in a restaurant too, as a cook. The dishwasher that was working "tax-free" (if you know what I mean) got higher pay than he did and his coworkers in serving could split the tips without including the kitchen staff. So he is now a busdriver for the city, earns nearly double and has far less stressful work.

Bucksandreds

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Everyone here keeps mentioning CEO’s and their huge salaries, but how about small business owners? There’s a lot of small businesses (like restaurants/coffee shops) who would simply go out of business if minimum wage was doubled.

Would we be better off having these businesses with lower wages shut down and then the employees have to find work elsewhere, as opposed to paying them less? These employees already have the option of working elsewhere, but they don’t. That, or they’d have to raise their prices so much in comparison that who knows if they could continue to stay in business.

For most company’s, I’d expect the increase wage cost would be directly passed on to the customers, just reducing the value of our dollar. Plus, people who make a small to medium amount over minimum wage now will also expect their wage to rise accordingly.

There’s also the option of harder labor jobs that pay more for most people. Granted, it also seems we live in a culture where people feel they also deserve to sit on their butt in the AC all day.

A drastic increase in the earned income tax credit with a large refundable credit (tax rebate beyond what is paid in) combined with progressive taxation of business profits with considerations of employee median pay for the portion of their business done in the US (regardless of where their headquarters are) solves the problems of the working poor while holding businesses accountable for providing a living wage. It also does not cripple a small business that has lower income.

Papa bear

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I think a full-time job should always have basic benefits (health insurance, paid time off to be used for vacation, sick and holidays) and I also think a full-time job should never be so low-paid that the employee would qualify for welfare, food stamps, or any other kind of government benefit.  If you're a company benefiting from an employee's full-time labor, then you have a responsibility to pay that person enough so that the government is not subsidizing your business.

It astounds me that anyone would see the employee as the problem instead of the employer, who is clearly gaming the system to get cheap labor, while the taxpayers are picking up the bill.  Walmart can go fuck themselves.

+1000.  We need to vote the Republicans out in 2020

I don’t want to take this more political, but why should minimum wage be a federal thing?  The “living wage” in NYC or San Fransisco is so far off from a rural area of the Midwest, enacting a single wage could be terrible.

Even making this a state issue can have problems.  NY state could enact a $20/hour pay rate, which would devastate the southern tier of NY and the more Midwest-like areas of the state. 

So if the minimum wage should be taken up somewhere, why not a city or county initiative? And many cities and counties lean left but haven’t enacted different minimum wages.  Some have, and that’s probably a better way to go about this. 


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mizzourah2006

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I've always found these discussions extremely interesting. I get the idea of a "living wage" it makes conceptual sense to me, I guess there are differing definitions of what one means by living wage. I also think the circumstances one is in are an interesting caveat. Obviously it seems harsh to say that a single mother of one "put herself in that situation" as clearly it takes two to make a baby, but it does bring up an important point. If a "living wage" is defined as supporting a single mother of 1, why should it stop there? What about a single mother of 3? or 4? Should people be paid based off of their extenuating circumstances instead of the value they bring to their employer?

I think the difference is always going to when single parents get thrown into the fold. Most local minimum wages could support a basic lifestyle for one person, especially if they got roommates. But typically as a parent the expectation is that you and your dependents have a place of your own, in a neighborhood that allows you to get into a good school district, etc. At that point "living wage" at least in my book is re-defined as a lower middle class lifestyle.

Also, I get the whole "department of agriculture" average thing and I don't live in Irvine California, but we are a family of 4 (2 adults, a 18 month old and a 3.5 year old) and we spend on average $400/month at the grocery store for everything and we definitely eat a hell of a lot better than Ramen.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 07:06:23 AM by mizzourah2006 »

Adam Zapple

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I think a full-time job should always have basic benefits (health insurance, paid time off to be used for vacation, sick and holidays) and I also think a full-time job should never be so low-paid that the employee would qualify for welfare, food stamps, or any other kind of government benefit.  If you're a company benefiting from an employee's full-time labor, then you have a responsibility to pay that person enough so that the government is not subsidizing your business.

It astounds me that anyone would see the employee as the problem instead of the employer, who is clearly gaming the system to get cheap labor, while the taxpayers are picking up the bill.  Walmart can go fuck themselves.

+1000.  We need to vote the Republicans out in 2020

I don’t want to take this more political, but why should minimum wage be a federal thing?  The “living wage” in NYC or San Fransisco is so far off from a rural area of the Midwest, enacting a single wage could be terrible.

Even making this a state issue can have problems.  NY state could enact a $20/hour pay rate, which would devastate the southern tier of NY and the more Midwest-like areas of the state. 

So if the minimum wage should be taken up somewhere, why not a city or county initiative? And many cities and counties lean left but haven’t enacted different minimum wages.  Some have, and that’s probably a better way to go about this. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I completely agree.  I also wonder if there are areas where the federal minimum wage rate is too high for local cost of living?  Can it actually inhibit the ability of local entrepreneurs to create profitable businesses?  Minimum wage rates should absolutely be based on location.

GuitarStv

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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2019/apr/11/jp-morgan-ceo-cant-explain-how-one-of-his-low-paid-employees-should-budget-her-salary-video?fbclid=IwAR3LAfSZNTo9NpuRbT3Z3Aa8kcbm-0SlFzvTezlczOtHJuT8fl76BY99_CQ

I found this thought provoking. Any opinions?

 In an ideal world, there would be 2 parents etc...but life is not ideal. Do employers have a responsibility to provide a living wage?

I'm not in the US and welfare would be higher here ..but there would still be similar stories.

 I would call a $40 cell phone bill a month a luxury but most wouldn't...and should people have to live without what is considered standard now?

No, employers don't have a responsibility to provide a "living wage". Employers have a responsibility to provide safe working conditions. Employers have a responsibility to pay reasonable market wages that will attract employees to take the job. Employers have a responsibility to not violate discrimination laws etc.

Employers do not have the responsibility to ensure that their employee's life choices can be financed with the pay their position earns.

So, if a company chooses to pay it's employees a wage that is low enough that the employee qualifies for food stamps (so the wage is below poverty level) it is acceptable to you that a company burdens society with the cost of food stamps while the company pockets the extra profits that they can make only because food stamps exist? Food stamps and other measures aimed at extremely low income workers are basically a subsidy from the tax payer to big companies. I don't see how the poverty level is a lifestyle choice.

To use the parallel with safe working conditions, which you do seem to believe is an employer's responsability: if legally a worker can be exposed to 100 units of a certain toxin, but we know that in fact 80 is the safe level of exposure, should employers aim for 100 or for 80?

I also don't buy the "if we set rules jobs will go to China" argument. Most jobs can not be easily moved to China (and the jobs that could be moved to lower income countries have been moved already). If that's the argument we might as well not set any labour laws at all.

The company isn't burdening anyone with anything. The company is offering an income in exchange for work.

The low-income worker that chooses to have kids they can't afford, chooses to not find a living situation they can afford, etc is the one burdening society. Put the blame where it belongs. JP Morgan didn't make someone a single mother living on their own, that was the result of the decisions made by the single mother living on her own or unfortunate circumstances. Blame her or the tragedy that caused her situation if we have to supplement her income due to her choices or that tragedy.

OK.

Once poor children are born, it's too late to unburden society.  So what's the solution?

You've got several options here:
- You can sterilize the poor
- You can force the poor to have abortions before birth
- You can euthanize poor children when born
- You can accept that the unsupported poor will create a permanent underclass with little to no hope of improvement, and very high chances of committing crime.
- You can pay extra for the bare necessities for poor children to become healthy/educated/productive members of society, while the companies that employ their parents become richer by not having to do so.  (This is what we currently do. . . lots of handouts.)
- You can force the companies employing poor people to pay a living wage.

I'd argue that only the last two solutions are morally/economically acceptable . . . so you've really got to choose between giving subsidies to the poor (and indirectly to employers), or legislating a higher minimum wage.  Both have negatives, but the current approach of giving rich companies hand outs makes less sense to me.

Alfred J Quack

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I completely agree.  I also wonder if there are areas where the federal minimum wage rate is too high for local cost of living?  Can it actually inhibit the ability of local entrepreneurs to create profitable businesses?  Minimum wage rates should absolutely be based on location.

Generally either prices or taxes inflate with the increase of minimum wage. It was the basic premise for the movie "In Time" (with Justin Timberlake).

In my country we have a standard minimum wage which is not enough to live on for single income families with kids. But for every specific item there are subsidies available to make sure you can get your minimum (so healthcare is subsidized, rent for social housing is subsidized, sportsclubs etc.). The effect is that some genius calculated that a family on our version of welfare with 4 to 5 kids can get subsidized so as to be on equal spending level with a single person earning a net income around €3300.

The problem with this, is that for each and every subsidy you have to know where to request it and the derogatory looks you get from everyone is often a deterrent for the people who do. But there is a certain class of persons who breed like rats and have no qualms in not working, getting each and every subsidy they can and still moan and groan about not having enough to live on. The incentive to work is almost non existent though, because higher income means fewer subsidies (though in practice, working still is on the plus side in balance).

It's also rather strange that some subsidies are based on income, and not wealth in general. I can have an income of 1k per month with 1mil in the bank and still get the maximum subsidy for childcare...

J Boogie

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That's an interesting idea, that the state is responsible for giving you a living even if you do nothing productive all day, but the company you're working for and which you add value to isn't. I'm not sure how that works philosophically unless you're a communist.

I think there's actually a decent capitalist argument to made for that idea.

Your argument would essentially require companies to pay people well beyond the value they add to a company. By doing this, you make the free market less free. And you also screw over everyone who can't get a corporate job (because small businesses will be exempt so they can stay open).

By offering a generous social safety net instead, people will be able to thrive regardless of their employment situation. Burden shifting to businesses creates the worst incentive - they want to avoid having employees at all costs because the cost of having employees has now greatly exceeded the benefit. So now you've got great $25/hr jobs with full benefits that all the middle class people enjoyed already anyways, but now there aren't any jobs for the people whose labor is worth more like $12/hr.


OliveFI

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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2019/apr/11/jp-morgan-ceo-cant-explain-how-one-of-his-low-paid-employees-should-budget-her-salary-video?fbclid=IwAR3LAfSZNTo9NpuRbT3Z3Aa8kcbm-0SlFzvTezlczOtHJuT8fl76BY99_CQ



 I would call a $40 cell phone bill a month a luxury but most wouldn't...and should people have to live without what is considered standard now?

I really dislike this argument that cell phones are a luxury. A cell phone and / or internet access is all but required in this day and age. Applying for jobs, being contacted by childcare, schools, work, etc. Maybe there are some cheaper options out there. But to say a cell phone is a luxury is ignoring how dependent we are on them for employment, etc. It don't think its just standard because we all like texting.

A lot of the people in this thread (and forum generally) assume a lot of people who are making below living wage are just not willing for forego luxuries unlike us morally superior mustachians. But sharing a one bed room, having a car (in California, where I believe they are practically required due to distances between locations, lack of public transport) isn't really living the luxurious lifestyle. It is just the minimum to exist.

I think companies should try to pay a livable wage. Cost of living analysis included. But when the populace of a country is taken care of on a basic level, it is better for everyone.

GuitarStv

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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2019/apr/11/jp-morgan-ceo-cant-explain-how-one-of-his-low-paid-employees-should-budget-her-salary-video?fbclid=IwAR3LAfSZNTo9NpuRbT3Z3Aa8kcbm-0SlFzvTezlczOtHJuT8fl76BY99_CQ



 I would call a $40 cell phone bill a month a luxury but most wouldn't...and should people have to live without what is considered standard now?

I really dislike this argument that cell phones are a luxury. A cell phone and / or internet access is all but required in this day and age. Applying for jobs, being contacted by childcare, schools, work, etc. Maybe there are some cheaper options out there. But to say a cell phone is a luxury is ignoring how dependent we are on them for employment, etc. It don't think its just standard because we all like texting.

A lot of the people in this thread (and forum generally) assume a lot of people who are making below living wage are just not willing for forego luxuries unlike us morally superior mustachians. But sharing a one bed room, having a car (in California, where I believe they are practically required due to distances between locations, lack of public transport) isn't really living the luxurious lifestyle. It is just the minimum to exist.

I think companies should try to pay a livable wage. Cost of living analysis included. But when the populace of a country is taken care of on a basic level, it is better for everyone.

I've been living quite happily without a cellphone for the last 38 years.  I've applied for jobs, been available for contact by childcare, work, etc. with our home phone (voip and super cheap) or the phone on my desk at my office.  While I don't begrudge anyone the use of one, a cell phone is absolutely a luxury - not a necessity.

Access to internet is a necessity though.

mizzourah2006

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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2019/apr/11/jp-morgan-ceo-cant-explain-how-one-of-his-low-paid-employees-should-budget-her-salary-video?fbclid=IwAR3LAfSZNTo9NpuRbT3Z3Aa8kcbm-0SlFzvTezlczOtHJuT8fl76BY99_CQ

I found this thought provoking. Any opinions?

 In an ideal world, there would be 2 parents etc...but life is not ideal. Do employers have a responsibility to provide a living wage?

I'm not in the US and welfare would be higher here ..but there would still be similar stories.

 I would call a $40 cell phone bill a month a luxury but most wouldn't...and should people have to live without what is considered standard now?

No, employers don't have a responsibility to provide a "living wage". Employers have a responsibility to provide safe working conditions. Employers have a responsibility to pay reasonable market wages that will attract employees to take the job. Employers have a responsibility to not violate discrimination laws etc.

Employers do not have the responsibility to ensure that their employee's life choices can be financed with the pay their position earns.

So, if a company chooses to pay it's employees a wage that is low enough that the employee qualifies for food stamps (so the wage is below poverty level) it is acceptable to you that a company burdens society with the cost of food stamps while the company pockets the extra profits that they can make only because food stamps exist? Food stamps and other measures aimed at extremely low income workers are basically a subsidy from the tax payer to big companies. I don't see how the poverty level is a lifestyle choice.

To use the parallel with safe working conditions, which you do seem to believe is an employer's responsability: if legally a worker can be exposed to 100 units of a certain toxin, but we know that in fact 80 is the safe level of exposure, should employers aim for 100 or for 80?

I also don't buy the "if we set rules jobs will go to China" argument. Most jobs can not be easily moved to China (and the jobs that could be moved to lower income countries have been moved already). If that's the argument we might as well not set any labour laws at all.

The company isn't burdening anyone with anything. The company is offering an income in exchange for work.

The low-income worker that chooses to have kids they can't afford, chooses to not find a living situation they can afford, etc is the one burdening society. Put the blame where it belongs. JP Morgan didn't make someone a single mother living on their own, that was the result of the decisions made by the single mother living on her own or unfortunate circumstances. Blame her or the tragedy that caused her situation if we have to supplement her income due to her choices or that tragedy.

OK.

Once poor children are born, it's too late to unburden society.  So what's the solution?

You've got several options here:
- You can sterilize the poor
- You can force the poor to have abortions before birth
- You can euthanize poor children when born
- You can accept that the unsupported poor will create a permanent underclass with little to no hope of improvement, and very high chances of committing crime.
- You can pay extra for the bare necessities for poor children to become healthy/educated/productive members of society, while the companies that employ their parents become richer by not having to do so.  (This is what we currently do. . . lots of handouts.)
- You can force the companies employing poor people to pay a living wage.

I'd argue that only the last two solutions are morally/economically acceptable . . . so you've really got to choose between giving subsidies to the poor (and indirectly to employers), or legislating a higher minimum wage.  Both have negatives, but the current approach of giving rich companies hand outs makes less sense to me.

So given you seem to agree that your final bullet is the ideal solution. Do we tie people's personal minimum wage to the # of dependents they support? If I am single with no dependents my min. wage necessary to "live" is surely less than a single mother with 1 child, whose is less than a single mother with 3 children, etc. To which employee is the company responsible for providing a living wage?

This could mean that a single 22 year old male living in Tulsa and willing to have roommates could have a min. wage of $8-$9/hr while a mother of 3 living in San Francisco who needs to pay for childcare would require a min. wage of $35-$40/hr.

Prairie Stash

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Everyone here keeps mentioning CEO’s and their huge salaries, but how about small business owners? There’s a lot of small businesses (like restaurants/coffee shops) who would simply go out of business if minimum wage was doubled.

Would we be better off having these businesses with lower wages shut down and then the employees have to find work elsewhere, as opposed to paying them less? These employees already have the option of working elsewhere, but they don’t. That, or they’d have to raise their prices so much in comparison that who knows if they could continue to stay in business.

For most company’s, I’d expect the increase wage cost would be directly passed on to the customers, just reducing the value of our dollar. Plus, people who make a small to medium amount over minimum wage now will also expect their wage to rise accordingly.

There’s also the option of harder labor jobs that pay more for most people. Granted, it also seems we live in a culture where people feel they also deserve to sit on their butt in the AC all day.
Easy, do exactly what LA does.

Minimum wage increased to $12.00 for business with 26 employees or more; $11.00 for business with 25 employees or fewer, effective on January 1, 2019[184] and increases to $15.00 by 2022.[185] At least 20 California cities had a minimum wage higher than the state minimum on January 1, 2018:[186]
Berkeley: $15.00 since October 1, 2018.
El Cerrito: $15.00 since January 1, 2019.
Emeryville: $15.69 for businesses with 56 or more employees; $15.00 for businesses with 55 employees or fewer, effective July 2018.[187]
Mountain View: $15.65 since January 1, 2019 [188]
Los Angeles: (City of Los Angeles - not including County of Los Angeles) $13.25 for businesses with 26 or more employees. $12.00 for businesses with 25 employees or fewer since July 1, 2018 and increases to $15.00 by 2020. Unions are exempt from the city of Los Angeles's minimum wage law.
Oakland: $13.80 since January 1, 2019; unions are exempt from Oakland's minimum wage law.
San Mateo: $15.00 ($13.65 for non-profits businesses) since January 1, 2019.[189]
San Francisco: $15.00 since July 1, 2018 and adjusts with Consumer Price Index (CPI) increases July 1 each following year;[190] unions are exempt from San Francisco's minimum wage law.[92]
San Jose: $15.00 since January 1, 2019; unions are exempt from San Jose's minimum wage law.[191]
San Diego: $12.00 since January 1, 2019.
Sunnyvale: $15.65 since January 1, 2019.[192]

Prairie Stash

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I completely agree.  I also wonder if there are areas where the federal minimum wage rate is too high for local cost of living?  Can it actually inhibit the ability of local entrepreneurs to create profitable businesses?  Minimum wage rates should absolutely be based on location.
Federal minimum is for the country. States also have wage rule that can exceed federal. Certain Cities also have wage rules, so that they match local conditions.

They currently are based on location.

cassafrass

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I've been living quite happily without a cellphone for the last 38 years.  I've applied for jobs, been available for contact by childcare, work, etc. with our home phone (voip and super cheap) or the phone on my desk at my office.


This is super impressive and I envy you. I keep waffling back and forth about whether I really need my cell phone. If I'm being completely honest with myself the answer is "no" but a 20-year addiction is tough to get over. Kudos to you for not buying in!

PoutineLover

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I've been living quite happily without a cellphone for the last 38 years.  I've applied for jobs, been available for contact by childcare, work, etc. with our home phone (voip and super cheap) or the phone on my desk at my office.


This is super impressive and I envy you. I keep waffling back and forth about whether I really need my cell phone. If I'm being completely honest with myself the answer is "no" but a 20-year addiction is tough to get over. Kudos to you for not buying in!
I don't really see what's so impressive about it. Cell phones are much more useful than home phones, and they aren't that expensive. For those of us who don't have phones at work, and who do lots of activities and travel, it would be a waste of money to have a home phone instead of a cell phone.

TheContinentalOp

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Are companies whose employees are receiving public benefits being subsidized by the taxpayers? It's not clear to me.

If eligibility requirements for these programs were changed, and people who had a job could no longer obtain the benefits what would happen?

1. The workers continue to work at their current wage and forgo the benefits. (In this case there is no subsidy)
2. The workers quit, in order to collect benefits, and the employer is able to fill the positions with no wage increase.  (In this case there is no subsidy)
3. The workers quit and in order to attract new employees, wages are raised (In this case there is a subsidy)

I looked (but not very hard) to see if there were real world examples of this, but couldn't find any.

But until there is some evidence one way or the other, it seems that claims that the gov't is subsidizing employers is unproven.

cassafrass

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I don't really see what's so impressive about it. Cell phones are much more useful than home phones, and they aren't that expensive. For those of us who don't have phones at work, and who do lots of activities and travel, it would be a waste of money to have a home phone instead of a cell phone.

I dislike the addictiveness of having a computer in my pocket at all times and its tendency to pull my focus away from what's happening directly in front of me to things that aren't all that important like answering emails and looking up insignificant facts.

I also am starting to be philosophically against the instant gratification culture that my cell phone represents. And I think it would be helpful for me to partake in some self-denial of technology for my personal growth, but it's difficult for me to do so because using a cell phone is a habit I've been indulging in for years.

So I'm impressed that GuitarStv has been able to avoid getting a cell phone despite their pervasiveness in current society. And the fact that people like him exist proves that I don't really need my cell phone - I'm just making excuses.

GuitarStv

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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2019/apr/11/jp-morgan-ceo-cant-explain-how-one-of-his-low-paid-employees-should-budget-her-salary-video?fbclid=IwAR3LAfSZNTo9NpuRbT3Z3Aa8kcbm-0SlFzvTezlczOtHJuT8fl76BY99_CQ

I found this thought provoking. Any opinions?

 In an ideal world, there would be 2 parents etc...but life is not ideal. Do employers have a responsibility to provide a living wage?

I'm not in the US and welfare would be higher here ..but there would still be similar stories.

 I would call a $40 cell phone bill a month a luxury but most wouldn't...and should people have to live without what is considered standard now?

No, employers don't have a responsibility to provide a "living wage". Employers have a responsibility to provide safe working conditions. Employers have a responsibility to pay reasonable market wages that will attract employees to take the job. Employers have a responsibility to not violate discrimination laws etc.

Employers do not have the responsibility to ensure that their employee's life choices can be financed with the pay their position earns.

So, if a company chooses to pay it's employees a wage that is low enough that the employee qualifies for food stamps (so the wage is below poverty level) it is acceptable to you that a company burdens society with the cost of food stamps while the company pockets the extra profits that they can make only because food stamps exist? Food stamps and other measures aimed at extremely low income workers are basically a subsidy from the tax payer to big companies. I don't see how the poverty level is a lifestyle choice.

To use the parallel with safe working conditions, which you do seem to believe is an employer's responsability: if legally a worker can be exposed to 100 units of a certain toxin, but we know that in fact 80 is the safe level of exposure, should employers aim for 100 or for 80?

I also don't buy the "if we set rules jobs will go to China" argument. Most jobs can not be easily moved to China (and the jobs that could be moved to lower income countries have been moved already). If that's the argument we might as well not set any labour laws at all.

The company isn't burdening anyone with anything. The company is offering an income in exchange for work.

The low-income worker that chooses to have kids they can't afford, chooses to not find a living situation they can afford, etc is the one burdening society. Put the blame where it belongs. JP Morgan didn't make someone a single mother living on their own, that was the result of the decisions made by the single mother living on her own or unfortunate circumstances. Blame her or the tragedy that caused her situation if we have to supplement her income due to her choices or that tragedy.

OK.

Once poor children are born, it's too late to unburden society.  So what's the solution?

You've got several options here:
- You can sterilize the poor
- You can force the poor to have abortions before birth
- You can euthanize poor children when born
- You can accept that the unsupported poor will create a permanent underclass with little to no hope of improvement, and very high chances of committing crime.
- You can pay extra for the bare necessities for poor children to become healthy/educated/productive members of society, while the companies that employ their parents become richer by not having to do so.  (This is what we currently do. . . lots of handouts.)
- You can force the companies employing poor people to pay a living wage.

I'd argue that only the last two solutions are morally/economically acceptable . . . so you've really got to choose between giving subsidies to the poor (and indirectly to employers), or legislating a higher minimum wage.  Both have negatives, but the current approach of giving rich companies hand outs makes less sense to me.

So given you seem to agree that your final bullet is the ideal solution. Do we tie people's personal minimum wage to the # of dependents they support? If I am single with no dependents my min. wage necessary to "live" is surely less than a single mother with 1 child, whose is less than a single mother with 3 children, etc. To which employee is the company responsible for providing a living wage?

This could mean that a single 22 year old male living in Tulsa and willing to have roommates could have a min. wage of $8-$9/hr while a mother of 3 living in San Francisco who needs to pay for childcare would require a min. wage of $35-$40/hr.

I don't think the final bullet is the ideal solution . . . there aren't any great solutions listed.  As you pointed out, there are complications with it that I'm not sure how to best handle.  It's the least worst solution if you don't like giving hand-outs to companies that don't need them though.





I've been living quite happily without a cellphone for the last 38 years.  I've applied for jobs, been available for contact by childcare, work, etc. with our home phone (voip and super cheap) or the phone on my desk at my office.


This is super impressive and I envy you. I keep waffling back and forth about whether I really need my cell phone. If I'm being completely honest with myself the answer is "no" but a 20-year addiction is tough to get over. Kudos to you for not buying in!
I don't really see what's so impressive about it. Cell phones are much more useful than home phones, and they aren't that expensive. For those of us who don't have phones at work, and who do lots of activities and travel, it would be a waste of money to have a home phone instead of a cell phone.

I don't agree that a cell phone is necessary to 'do activities'.  Last summer I regularly went for 100 - 160 km bike rides, well out into the middle of nowhere.  A phone lets you get away with being less prepared I suppose, certainly not a necessity though.  Sometimes it's kinda nice being unavailable and not tethered to work.  Went to a concert a couple weeks back . . . again, didn't need a cellphone.  I figured out the best route to take on transit before hand, bought my tickets, showed up at the venue slightly early, and had no problems whatsoever.  It was kinda painful to see a sea of tiny screens that folks were watching rather than the actual performance in front of them . . . but whatever.  In this day and age you have accept that people with cell phones will make doing most activities worse for everyone else (attending movies, concerts, recitals for your kid, lectures, driving, etc.).

I've also got to travel for a few days every couple months for work.  Hotel rooms have phones.  So do airports.  Would having a cell phone be convenient sometimes?  Sure.  A necessity?  Hell no.

:P

cassafrass

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Do we tie people's personal minimum wage to the # of dependents they support? If I am single with no dependents my min. wage necessary to "live" is surely less than a single mother with 1 child, whose is less than a single mother with 3 children, etc. To which employee is the company responsible for providing a living wage?

This could mean that a single 22 year old male living in Tulsa and willing to have roommates could have a min. wage of $8-$9/hr while a mother of 3 living in San Francisco who needs to pay for childcare would require a min. wage of $35-$40/hr.

I think this really gets to the root of the problem. What is a living wage? It's situational and heavily influenced by societal norms that can vary from city to city or across families.

For my family of 4, I feel like having, at minimum, a 2-bedroom apartment or house is necessary because I'm used to the luxury. But my mom and her ex-husband raised my two older siblings in a 1-bedroom house with three total rooms (all 4 of them slept in the same bedroom for years and I can't even imagine that!). And a hundred years ago a family of 4 would live in a single room. So is that what a living wage should support? It can be tricky to flesh out.

MommyCake

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Yes, I agree.  What is a living wage?  What is a necessity vs. luxury?

Do you need your own place or can you live with a roommate or extended family?
Do you need a car or can you take the bus?
Do you need to eat out for lunch/coffee daily or can you bring from home?
Etc. Etc. 

Many people will say they NEED certain things to live but really they are just comforts.  For example, I live in a 3 bedroom house with my partner and 2 children.  If we had a financial crisis, I could move in with my parents or other family, or I could have the kids share a room and rent out a bedroom.  It's not a need to have our own place.  We just prefer it. 

It is not the government's or our employers responsibility to pay me what I think I need.  It is my personal responsibility to either find a way to earn enough to pay for what I want/need, or to adjust my lifestyle to be able to live within my earnings/pay.   

GuitarStv

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It is not the government's or our employers responsibility to pay me what I think I need.  It is my personal responsibility to either find a way to earn enough to pay for what I want/need, or to adjust my lifestyle to be able to live within my earnings/pay. 

I get this sentiment and agree with it to a certain point . . . but we know that people don't always make the best choices.  Actually, it seems that the norm is to make the wrong choices.  Knowing this, what do you propose should happen with all the people who are unable to adjust their lifestyle to live within their earnings and unable to find a job that allows them to earn enough for what they need?

jlcnuke

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OK.

Once poor children are born, it's too late to unburden society.  So what's the solution?

You've got several options here:
- You can sterilize the poor
- You can force the poor to have abortions before birth
- You can euthanize poor children when born
- You can accept that the unsupported poor will create a permanent underclass with little to no hope of improvement, and very high chances of committing crime.
- You can pay extra for the bare necessities for poor children to become healthy/educated/productive members of society, while the companies that employ their parents become richer by not having to do so.  (This is what we currently do. . . lots of handouts.)
- You can force the companies employing poor people to pay a living wage.

I'd argue that only the last two solutions are morally/economically acceptable . . . so you've really got to choose between giving subsidies to the poor (and indirectly to employers), or legislating a higher minimum wage.  Both have negatives, but the current approach of giving rich companies hand outs makes less sense to me.

Social programs are designed to help those in need. The fact that one unskilled worker has a living situation they can't afford doesn't mean all do. As such, forcing companies to pay a 16 year old kid, living at home with mommy and daddy and no bills, as if he'd earned enough to support a family is absolutely ridiculous imo. Same for that 19 year old kid living in an apartment with 3 roommates so they can afford to live on their own before they develop any skills/education/experience that an employer would value more than the minimum wage.

The "woe is me for having a shitty situation" few should not result in the government forcing money out of companies and redistributing it to people who haven't earned it. Got a shitty situation? That's why we have social programs to help people, take advantage of them. Those who didn't end up in that situation shouldn't have their employers forced to pay them more simply because some people make bad choices or end up in a shitty situation.