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General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: Poorman on August 20, 2015, 01:39:58 PM
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The 100 hour work week in Japan
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/working-towards-death-in-japan-140758364.html (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/working-towards-death-in-japan-140758364.html)
At 3 a.m. on Monday morning, Eriko Fujita leaves the IBM offices in Tokyo. She rushes home to take a shower and get a few hours of sleep before she returns to her office at 7 a.m.
“We don't have a 5 o’clock-and-get-out kind of culture,” she says with a shrug. While her schedule depends on the specific project, she says her typical workday lasts about 15 hours.
“I don’t really have a choice,” Fujita says. “If I have a task and I can finish it within eight hours, then I get out. If I cannot, I need to stay.”
Overtime has become a problem of such severity that it is now associated with a host of physical and mental illnesses. In Japan, death by over work, or karoshi, is a legally recognized cause of death. According to Japan's Health Ministry, over 100 workers died from work-related causes including strokes, heart attacks and suicide in 2013, sparking lawsuits and calls for limits on amounts of overtime work.
In Fujita's case, the long hours became overwhelming. Eventually, she took a three-month leave of absence from IBM.
"I had a mental breakdown," she says. "I was working so hard and not sleeping well. Physically and mentally I got so tired... I was crying for no reason. I didn't know why my tears are coming out."
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Disgusting, totally disgusting what this purchasers market does to people. Corporations have no soul and if allowed they will kill people by overworking them for no pay.
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On the bright side, I'm glad some of my mutual funds contain Japanese companies. The Japanese are smart and hard working. They beat the United States auto industry at there own game. I do hope they take some time off though.
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Ah, employers taking advantage of employees. I think this is basically the US. See the Goldman Sachs interns committing suicide. I think it's just the beginning of this trend, and will get a lot worse.
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Really? It's the company's fault?
I absolutely agree if you are at the poverty line maybe you need to do whatever the company wants if you can't get any other job, but in Japan and US? Common, people who are overworked pick those jobs and made those choices, or at least the choice not to leave. You can pick a job, pick a career, pick a company that doesn't work you to death, it's just a matter of choices. Spend less, work less, enjoy life more. Corporations are made up of the people who work there. Everyone stop working 50 hour weeks and the companies will adapt.
NOT saying the companies are doing the right thing, just saying we aren't fucking sheep.
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Japan's culture is very different about this. They value time spent at work much more than time actually working. Sleeping at your desk is considered noble; going home and sleeping at home so you can be more productive is... not.
Until they fix that, you can blame company and employee equally, because they together share the culture of expecting and doing this crazy shit.
Doesn't really concern me - it's pretty nice that they're buying our tech instead of the other way around. They can work themselves to death in order to buy the shit that pays my salary if they want.
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Disgusting, totally disgusting what this purchasers market does to people. Corporations have no soul and if allowed they will kill people by overworking them for no pay.
Before you criticize the Japanese as exploitive slave drivers, please look at the disparity in pay between CEOs and average workers in Japan versus America.
This is not about economic exploitation. It is about culture.
The Japanese culture is very communal and respectful of those who surround you (unlike ours.) They are also a very homogenous society, which has its own unique problems.
Spend any amount of time in Japan and you'll realize that the Japanese have unique strengths and weaknesses and they're quite different/complementary to our own.
I would never want to be a Japanese salary man stuck in that culture, but I have a ton of respect for Japanese cultural dedication to work for work's sake, social cohesion and quality.
Full disclosure: my wife is Japanese.
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A few others that touched on this already, but I don't get the impression that any of the work culture is driven by a desire for material things. It's just what you're expected to do, regardless of who you work for. You even see this even at mom and pop operations. You work your ass off and that brings respect. Also, there's this concept of doing something to perfection that comes into play as well. A funny example: there's an awesome coffee shop in Tokyo where the apprentice barista has been working for over four years and is still not allowed to make espresso because, as the owner told us, "he's not ready yet." I take espresso seriously, but damn. That's a whole other level of dedication.
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A few others that touched on this already, but I don't get the impression that any of the work culture is driven by a desire for material things. It's just what you're expected to do, regardless of who you work for. You even see this even at mom and pop operations. You work your ass off and that brings respect. Also, there's this concept of doing something to perfection that comes into play as well. A funny example: there's an awesome coffee shop in Tokyo where the apprentice barista has been working for over four years and is still not allowed to make espresso because, as the owner told us, "he's not ready yet." I take espresso seriously, but damn. That's a whole other level of dedication.
Pretty much this. And my company has an office in Japan.
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Can we please stop judging other countries, especially by another country's value system? While at it, can we agree to stop assuming that if a country has a culture of working crazy hours, it is not out of necessity to make ends meet? At least until we've verified the statistics that it is the case.
FYI, Japan ranks below Norway, Denmark, France, Switzerland, U.S., Sweden, U.K., Australia and Canada when it comes to median debt held by an adult [1]. It ranks below U.S., Canada, Germany, Norway, Luxembourg, Australia when it comes to vehicles per 1000 people [2]. Further, its energy consumption per capita is below Australia, Canada, Norway, U.S., France, Germany, Sweden, and Belgium [3]. OECD ranks Japan the sixth when it comes to household net worth [4].
Any and all of these are reasonable indicators of frugality and population/cultural level fiscal responsibility.
I am not sure how you define "purchaser market", or to get a country to be "mustachian", but this is such a ridiculous assumption to make.
[1] http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-06-04/debt-nations
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_energy_consumption_per_capita
[4] https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-net-worth.htm
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Can we please stop judging other countries, especially by another country's value system? While at it, can we agree to stop assuming that if a country has a culture of working crazy hours, it is not out of necessity to make ends meet? At least until we've verified the statistics that it is the case.
FYI, Japan ranks below Norway, Denmark, France, Switzerland, U.S., Sweden, U.K., Australia and Canada when it comes to median debt held by an adult [1]. It ranks below U.S., Canada, Germany, Norway, Luxembourg, Australia when it comes to vehicles per 1000 people [2]. Further, its energy consumption per capita is below Australia, Canada, Norway, U.S., France, Germany, Sweden, and Belgium [3]. OECD ranks Japan the sixth when it comes to household net worth [4].
Any and all of these are reasonable indicators of frugality and population/cultural level fiscal responsibility.
I am not sure how you define "purchaser market", or to get a country to be "mustachian", but this is such a ridiculous assumption to make.
[1] http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-06-04/debt-nations
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_energy_consumption_per_capita
[4] https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-net-worth.htm
Amen.
But how about taking it one step further? Let's simply resolve to judge ourselves harshly and to judge others not at all.
Judging others is a dead end game.
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Can we please stop judging other countries, especially by another country's value system? While at it, can we agree to stop assuming that if a country has a culture of working crazy hours, it is not out of necessity to make ends meet? At least until we've verified the statistics that it is the case.
FYI, Japan ranks below Norway, Denmark, France, Switzerland, U.S., Sweden, U.K., Australia and Canada when it comes to median debt held by an adult [1]. It ranks below U.S., Canada, Germany, Norway, Luxembourg, Australia when it comes to vehicles per 1000 people [2]. Further, its energy consumption per capita is below Australia, Canada, Norway, U.S., France, Germany, Sweden, and Belgium [3]. OECD ranks Japan the sixth when it comes to household net worth [4].
Any and all of these are reasonable indicators of frugality and population/cultural level fiscal responsibility.
I am not sure how you define "purchaser market", or to get a country to be "mustachian", but this is such a ridiculous assumption to make.
[1] http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-06-04/debt-nations
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_energy_consumption_per_capita
[4] https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-net-worth.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
It also has ones of the highest suicide rates for a developed economy (50% higher per capita than the US). Are we allowed to judge that as an objectively bad outcome? I'm not saying the west has anything perfect, but I think it's clear that if a country has a word for death by overwork, there's an issue. I understand it's part of their culture and it's not popular to say part of a culture is wrong, but I'll say the same thing about American exceptionalism and militarism (of course, that's socially a lot more acceptable, especially on the internet).
I hope they sort it out before too many people needlessly die or kill themselves. I understand it's a first world problem, but solving "more important" problems is not mutually exclusive with solving first world problems.
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Really? It's the company's fault?
I absolutely agree if you are at the poverty line maybe you need to do whatever the company wants if you can't get any other job, but in Japan and US? Common, people who are overworked pick those jobs and made those choices, or at least the choice not to leave. You can pick a job, pick a career, pick a company that doesn't work you to death, it's just a matter of choices. Spend less, work less, enjoy life more. Corporations are made up of the people who work there. Everyone stop working 50 hour weeks and the companies will adapt.
NOT saying the companies are doing the right thing, just saying we aren't fucking sheep.
When the culture is one of over-work, you may not really have a choice. What - you're gonna leave IBM and work for Microsoft? Congrats, you just got a different 100-hr week job, and now you're not vested.
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But if you want a sword -- I mean a really good sword -- you are going to have to travel to Okinawa
Hint: this ain't it
http://www.amazon.com/Original-Bride-Sword-hattori-Hanzo/dp/B0009QYQ6E
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But if you want a sword -- I mean a really good sword -- you are going to have to travel to Okinawa
Hint: this ain't it
http://www.amazon.com/Original-Bride-Sword-hattori-Hanzo/dp/B0009QYQ6E
Solid reference
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...there's an awesome coffee shop in Tokyo where the apprentice barista has been working for over four years and is still not allowed to make espresso because, as the owner told us, "he's not ready yet." I take espresso seriously, but damn. That's a whole other level of dedication.
Dedication or insane fuss budgeting. It's a fine line. I mean really, how could one not be ready for making espresso after 4 years. I bet if he made one, on the sly, no one could tell the difference.
Can we please stop judging other countries, especially by another country's value system?
No. There is nothing wrong with making judgements. It's what makes it possible to say one thing is better than another. Working 100 hours a week and dying from overwork or suicide, plus never seeing your family is bad. It's a bad life. I am judging it to be a bad life. There, I said it. As the OP said, the Japanese need to grow a 'stache.
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The idea that if you can't get the work assigned to you done in 8 hours it's your failing as an employee is toxic. If management assign you 15 hours of work to do in 8 hours then as far as I'm concerned that's a management issue. As an employee your responsibility is to say "hey, I don't think this is getting done today" and "maybe hire someone else to share the work with". Then you do your 8 hours and you go home and if the project doesn't get finished then that's a management issue.
There is a very clear line between the things which are the responsibility of the management and those which are the responsibility of the employee and a workplace that crosses that line is not one I want anything to do with.
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No. There is nothing wrong with making judgements. It's what makes it possible to say one thing is better than another. Working 100 hours a week and dying from overwork or suicide, plus never seeing your family is bad. It's a bad life. I am judging it to be a bad life. There, I said it. As the OP said, the Japanese need to grow a 'stache.
Judgments are completely meaningless, when you take one value system and apply it to another. Wars have been fought over the idea of equating one country's values into another. Collectively speaking it has led to more chaos and waste than if you had simply left it alone.
Is it bad that their suicide rates are high? Yes it is according to the principles and value systems I believe in. What makes possible for one thing to be better than another objectively is not your judgment, but objective evidence. What makes one thing better than another to *you* is your judgment and your value system. Why should anyone give any relevance to what your or my value system is?
My main contention though, is to equate their culture of work to having them grow a 'stache. That is stupid in the face of incontrovertible evidence that suggests that the average Japanese family is much better off by several frugality indicators than the average Western family.
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Isn't there a significant issue with the Japanese economy due in part to an extremely high savings (not investing, saving) rate of the people which is hindering economic growth and caused a decade of stagnation?
Especially with Japan, you need to separate the ideas of "work" and "financial independence" because they are not necessarily related.
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Can we please stop judging other countries, especially by another country's value system? While at it, can we agree to stop assuming that if a country has a culture of working crazy hours, it is not out of necessity to make ends meet? At least until we've verified the statistics that it is the case.
FYI, Japan ranks below Norway, Denmark, France, Switzerland, U.S., Sweden, U.K., Australia and Canada when it comes to median debt held by an adult [1]. It ranks below U.S., Canada, Germany, Norway, Luxembourg, Australia when it comes to vehicles per 1000 people [2]. Further, its energy consumption per capita is below Australia, Canada, Norway, U.S., France, Germany, Sweden, and Belgium [3]. OECD ranks Japan the sixth when it comes to household net worth [4].
Any and all of these are reasonable indicators of frugality and population/cultural level fiscal responsibility.
I am not sure how you define "purchaser market", or to get a country to be "mustachian", but this is such a ridiculous assumption to make.
[1] http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-06-04/debt-nations
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_energy_consumption_per_capita
[4] https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-net-worth.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
It also has ones of the highest suicide rates for a developed economy (50% higher per capita than the US). Are we allowed to judge that as an objectively bad outcome? I'm not saying the west has anything perfect, but I think it's clear that if a country has a word for death by overwork, there's an issue. I understand it's part of their culture and it's not popular to say part of a culture is wrong, but I'll say the same thing about American exceptionalism and militarism (of course, that's socially a lot more acceptable, especially on the internet).
I hope they sort it out before too many people needlessly die or kill themselves. I understand it's a first world problem, but solving "more important" problems is not mutually exclusive with solving first world problems.
To objectively judge anything, all you need is objective evidence. You have given me a link of suicide rates of countries, but when I sort it to list countries with the highest rates of suicide per 100,000 people, but Japan is 17th on that list. So let's say we restrict ourselves to just the "developed countries" - a nebulous metric, but let's leave it at that and just look at the so called first world countries - the rate of suicide in Japan is 20 per 100,000 people, while the next one below is Switzerland at 15 per 100,000 people. Sweden, Norway, U.S., and several others converge around the 10 per 100,000 mark.
Do you know how many paid holidays per year the Japanese get? Statutory minimum paid days off in Japan is 10 days per year [2]. That number in the U.S. is ZERO. OECD's work-life balance index gives Japan a score of 5/10, with U.S., Australia, Canada, and the U.K. also at the 5/10 mark [3].
The suicide rates in Japan spiked up since 1990s, when their country has been in a massive decade long recession, and layoffs became common. My first link below provides that 57% of all suicides in Japan is as a result of the stigma of unemployment, not because of death by overwork as you claim. When so much of one's self worth is tied to what one does, and if by the circumstances of your life, one is not able to be a productive or active member of the society, that pushes people into depression.
Having read all of this, I can only conclude that it is not at all clear that the suicide rates are by overwork. Please substantiate your claims and stop attributing hidden confounding factors to data based on what you believe in, where there is none.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Japan
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_statutory_minimum_employment_leave_by_country
[3] http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/life-satisfaction/
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Amen.
But how about taking it one step further? Let's simply resolve to judge ourselves harshly and to judge others not at all.
Judging others is a dead end game.
Agree 100%, and said it better than myself.
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Also wanted to add in that some religions do not consider suicide a sin as much as Christianity does, so if you have been raised in Christian beliefs, your mind is automatically programmed to view it negatively. Hinduism and Buddhism, both while teaching that suicide is not non-violent (one of their tenets), do make exceptions, a la, so-called honorable suicides. By no means am I promoting suicide, but merely pointing out that some cultures may not actively condemn it as much as a Western society where the majority religion treats it as a sin.
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...there's an awesome coffee shop in Tokyo where the apprentice barista has been working for over four years and is still not allowed to make espresso because, as the owner told us, "he's not ready yet." I take espresso seriously, but damn. That's a whole other level of dedication.
Dedication or insane fuss budgeting. It's a fine line. I mean really, how could one not be ready for making espresso after 4 years. I bet if he made one, on the sly, no one could tell the difference.
Can we please stop judging other countries, especially by another country's value system?
No. There is nothing wrong with making judgements. It's what makes it possible to say one thing is better than another. Working 100 hours a week and dying from overwork or suicide, plus never seeing your family is bad. It's a bad life. I am judging it to be a bad life. There, I said it. As the OP said, the Japanese need to grow a 'stache.
Have you ever been to Japan? I go there regularly. It is always shocking how almost everything there is of higher quality than here. Even down to McDonald's, workers really work hard there and the products tastes better because of that.
As to the wisdom of making judgements, "it's what makes it possible to say one thing is better than another" is a bit circular, no? You are essentially saying that it is impossible to make judgements unless you make judgements!
And what's so great about that ability to judge?
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Please substantiate your claims and stop attributing hidden confounding factors to data based on what you believe in, where there is none.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Japan
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_statutory_minimum_employment_leave_by_country
[3] http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/life-satisfaction/
Sorry I got you so worked up about this. I wasn't trying to claim that suicide is caused by overwork. That claim would require evidence, but I'm not about to do the regression analysis for a forum post. I wasn't really aware the internet had become the place for research papers. My point was simply that I feel like I can judge higher suicide rate as a bad outcome. Whether it's from unemployment or overstress is not really relevant, in my view.
I don't view suicide as a sin, but simply a negative outcome from an evolutionary point of view.
I didn't see data on work life balance in the link you provided (admittedly I didn't spend too much time looking around for it), but it did show that life satisfaction in Japan was 5.9 compared to 7-7.4 for Germany, US, Sweden, Norway and Finland.
That is not to say Japanese culture is inferior to other cultures. That is to say something could be better. You can't improve something without making a judgment on it's current state.
The whole premise of MMM is judging the crap out of people."Your current middle-class life is an Exploding Volcano of Wastefulness" -MMM. Now, there are dangers you can get in when issuing judgments, but I feel like saying judge no one or nothing is refusing to acknowledge human biology. You couldn't function in society if you didn't judge many people or things on a daily basis.
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...there's an awesome coffee shop in Tokyo where the apprentice barista has been working for over four years and is still not allowed to make espresso because, as the owner told us, "he's not ready yet." I take espresso seriously, but damn. That's a whole other level of dedication.
Dedication or insane fuss budgeting. It's a fine line. I mean really, how could one not be ready for making espresso after 4 years. I bet if he made one, on the sly, no one could tell the difference.
Can we please stop judging other countries, especially by another country's value system?
No. There is nothing wrong with making judgements. It's what makes it possible to say one thing is better than another. Working 100 hours a week and dying from overwork or suicide, plus never seeing your family is bad. It's a bad life. I am judging it to be a bad life. There, I said it. As the OP said, the Japanese need to grow a 'stache.
Have you ever been to Japan? I go there regularly. It is always shocking how almost everything there is of higher quality than here. Even down to McDonald's, workers really work hard there and the products tastes better because of that.
As to the wisdom of making judgements, "it's what makes it possible to say one thing is better than another" is a bit circular, no? You are essentially saying that it is impossible to make judgements unless you make judgements!
And what's so great about that ability to judge?
Have you ever been to Japan?
Yes, several times, though not since the '70s.
Yes, my statement was a bit circular. Sorry. Judgement allows us to make comparisons and pick a winner. Is that better? That's what's so great about the ability to judge.
Working 100 hours a week sucks, and even the Japanese think it sucks - that's why they are suing employers and have coined a word for dying from overwork.
As an aside, I always thought the miso in Hawaii was better than in Japan, though in one case it was made by Japanese and in the other Japanese-Americans.
I would suggest that if the product (MickeyDs) tastes better in Japan it's probably due to different ingredients/sourcing rather than hard work.
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What do you mean by "pick a winner?" How do you or anyone else benefit from such a judgement?
Disagree on the miso.
Your Mickey D theory would be valid if only McD's (or food in general) was of superior quality.
The observation was much more sweeping. Japanese Food, knives, cars, artisanry, architecture, knives, bar tending, you name it, all display superior quality to our own.
And, in my view, this attention to detail and quality is a defining aspect of Japanese culture, and is not unrelated to their work culture.
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What do you mean by "pick a winner?" How do you or anyone else benefit from such a judgement?
Disagree on the miso.
Your Mickey D theory would be valid if only McD's (or food in general) was of superior quality.
The observation was much more sweeping. Japanese Food, knives, cars, artisanry, architecture, knives, bar tending, you name it, all display superior quality to our own.
And, in my view, this attention to detail and quality is a defining aspect of Japanese culture, and is not unrelated to their work culture.
Can we please stop judging other countries, especially by another country's value system?
What do you mean by "pick a winner?" How do you or anyone else benefit from such a judgement?
The observation was much more sweeping. Japanese Food, knives, cars, artisanry, architecture, knives, bar tending, you name it, all display superior quality to our own.
Let me know when cognitive dissonance strikes.
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For the record. You still haven't answered my question. What is the upside of "picking a winner?".
As for me there is absolutely no cognitive dissonance.
I'm not passing judgement on our culture or dismissing it.
I'm pointing out that the Japanese work habits are a part of a larger culture that is responsible for both its unique strengths and weaknesses.
It's a subtle point. That we don't have to pass judgement or dismiss an entire culture. That there is really no benefit to "picking a winner."
Apparently that's a foreign concept to someone like yourself who sees the world in such black and white, dualistic, and dare I say childish terms.
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For the record. You still haven't answered my question. What is the upside of "picking a winner?".
I think I have, it allows us to say one thing is better than another (Japanese cars vs American cars for example) If you don't see being able to choose a superior product as "picking a winner" and if you can't see that as an upside, I don't know what to say.
As for me there is absolutely no cognitive dissonance.
You complain that people are being judgmental, then you say that all sorts of Japanese goods are superior to American goods, yet you have not experienced cognitive dissonance yet. OK.
I'm not passing judgement on our culture or dismissing it.
I'm pointing out that the Japanese work habits are a part of a larger culture that is responsible for both its unique strengths and weaknesses.
It's a subtle point. That we don't have to pass judgement or dismiss an entire culture. That there is really no benefit to "picking a winner."
Actually there is nothing subtle about it at all. There is obviously a benefit to picking a winner, otherwise a Chevette is as good as a Civic (to choose an example from the 1980s)
No one is condemning the entirety of Japanese culture, just the 100 hour work week.
Apparently that's a foreign concept to someone like yourself who sees the world in such black and white, dualistic, and dare I say childish terms.
You are, apparently, reading into my comments something that just isn't there.
I understand that they work long hours for cultural reasons. I also understand that it sucks, and that they themselves think it sucks, and that we absolutely need to judge that working 100 hours a week is no way to live.
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No one disagrees that it sucks to work 100 hour work weeks. I worked 110-120 hour work weeks as an intern, and hated it.
What I disagree with are statements like this:
"As the OP said, the Japanese need to grow a 'stache. "
Which is myopic and absurd.
Let me give you some examples of useful versus useless judgments.
Useful judgement: "working 100 hours a week would not make me happy."
Useless judgement: "Japan should change its entire thousands of year old culture because I would not personally want to live by its norms."
Useful judgement: "Japanese products and goods are of higher quality in general than American products and goods, perhaps this is related to their work ethic."
Useless judgement: "America should adopt the Japanese culture and work ethic."
Hopefully that helps you see the difference between the broad strokes generalizations about what entire cultures should and should not do, that you seem to endorse, and more focused observations about your own personal preferences and the world at large.
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Sorry I got you so worked up about this. I wasn't trying to claim that suicide is caused by overwork. That claim would require evidence, but I'm not about to do the regression analysis for a forum post. I wasn't really aware the internet had become the place for research papers. My point was simply that I feel like I can judge higher suicide rate as a bad outcome. Whether it's from unemployment or overstress is not really relevant, in my view.
I don't view suicide as a sin, but simply a negative outcome from an evolutionary point of view.
I didn't see data on work life balance in the link you provided (admittedly I didn't spend too much time looking around for it), but it did show that life satisfaction in Japan was 5.9 compared to 7-7.4 for Germany, US, Sweden, Norway and Finland.
That is not to say Japanese culture is inferior to other cultures. That is to say something could be better. You can't improve something without making a judgment on it's current state.
The whole premise of MMM is judging the crap out of people."Your current middle-class life is an Exploding Volcano of Wastefulness" -MMM. Now, there are dangers you can get in when issuing judgments, but I feel like saying judge no one or nothing is refusing to acknowledge human biology. You couldn't function in society if you didn't judge many people or things on a daily basis.
No need to do regression analysis, just read your own links and see if they support the point you are making. If it is opinion, call it so, if not, provide evidence. Simple.
It's really sad that that's all you got out of MMM, by the way. Summarizing it to a gist, you seem to feel that judging the crap out of people is what MMM is all about, while in reality, I got the impression that MMM's point was to mostly question conventional wisdom, accept your own mistakes and grow up by acknowledging that you really suck at certain things.
Nobody said judge no one - you have permission to judge yourself.
And I function just fine in society with this attitude, thanks. I can actually make the point that judgementalism is the number one reason society is not cohesive, but I'll leave that discussion for later, since I think I've given enough things to mull over in one post.
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Now I understand why the birthrate is so low there: all work and no play, he he.
As part of a measure to combat it, the government encourages men to spend more hours assisting their wives with child rearing, and cites the fear of unemployment as being one of the causes of delayed marriage.
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2015/04/07/editorials/battling-the-low-birthrate/#.VdpRiuAo7mx
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Japan is considering a law to make people take more vacation time. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/22/japan-long-hours-work-culture-overwork-paid-holiday-law
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Do you know how many paid holidays per year the Japanese get? Statutory minimum paid days off in Japan is 10 days per year [2]. That number in the U.S. is ZERO.
Sorry, this is always a silly metric. Yes, in the US, we are not MANDATED holidays off, but how many employers never give them? Any? I have my Holiday calendar hanging next to me, I get 11 paid holidays plus 2 more "floating" that I can use for whatever. Just because something isn't required by law doesn't mean we don't get it.
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Isn't there a significant issue with the Japanese economy due in part to an extremely high savings (not investing, saving) rate of the people which is hindering economic growth and caused a decade of stagnation?
Especially with Japan, you need to separate the ideas of "work" and "financial independence" because they are not necessarily related.
Okay, this is going to be a bit of economic 1x1, it is about something that is nearly always forgotten, especially by neoliberals. So please sit sown, take a deep breath and read this and think about it:
For every dollar saved someone has one dollar dept.
Thats it. Sounds logical, right? If I give you a dollar, you are indepted to me by excatly one dollar.
If you save one dollar at the bank, you are a creditor of that bank, they are in dept to you by one dollar and you get e.g. 1% interest as a payment for that dollar.
If you take a dollar from that bank, the bank saved one dollar into you and charging you 10% for that privilege ;)
So if the japanese save so much money, who has it? Who has this dept?
Compared to other countries Japan has a very high rate of state dept. Mostly (also in difference to other countries) to its own people. Most of the japanese peoples savings are in the japanese state.
What did the government do with that money?
It invested it - into roads, schools and so on. GROWTH!!
The savings rate of a country have no influence at all on the economic growth, with the possible exception that a high savings rate makes the flow of money better so that it gets invested where the result is better.
That is true as long as the savings stay in the country, of course. And also as long as it is invested into the real economy. Not into derivatives of derivatives created by banks to sell at other banks.
Banks create money with the savings/dept mechanic. That is the reason why banks cropped up a few hundred years ago when even the richest person could not finance expeditions to india or the americas alone. Banks were a very important part in the industrialisation. But banks often no longer invest into real things, they "invest" into papers issued by other banks. That is arguably the reason for economic growth problems right now, too much money sloshing around without "working". (just one easy to understand example: Land prices have multiplied, but nothing was invested into machines or whatever to grow more, and even then, can you grow 3 times more wheat then before on already heavy industrialised land? No.)
And bloody stupid ideas by people like our german finance minister. Cut spending by workers, cut spending by retirees, cut spending by the state and miraculously companies will have more customers. Worked very well in Greece!
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A few others that touched on this already, but I don't get the impression that any of the work culture is driven by a desire for material things. It's just what you're expected to do, regardless of who you work for. You even see this even at mom and pop operations. You work your ass off and that brings respect.
That right there is the key difference of our cultures (Japan / USA). Most in the USA only respect a few things, and that isn't one of them.
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Do you know how many paid holidays per year the Japanese get? Statutory minimum paid days off in Japan is 10 days per year [2]. That number in the U.S. is ZERO.
Sorry, this is always a silly metric. Yes, in the US, we are not MANDATED holidays off, but how many employers never give them? Any? I have my Holiday calendar hanging next to me, I get 11 paid holidays plus 2 more "floating" that I can use for whatever. Just because something isn't required by law doesn't mean we don't get it.
Really depends on the industry. Office jobs are skewed to typically having paid holidays. My husband works in restaurants, no paid holidays. Sister has worked a number different jobs including nursing assistant, decorator, also restaurants and most of them, if she doesn't work she doesn't get paid, and often have to work holidays. My lil brother is a contractor same thing no paid days off.
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It's really sad that that's all you got out of MMM, by the way. Summarizing it to a gist, you seem to feel that judging the crap out of people is what MMM is all about, while in reality, I got the impression that MMM's point was to mostly question conventional wisdom, accept your own mistakes and grow up by acknowledging that you really suck at certain things.
Nobody said judge no one - you have permission to judge yourself.
And I function just fine in society with this attitude, thanks. I can actually make the point that judgementalism is the number one reason society is not cohesive, but I'll leave that discussion for later, since I think I've given enough things to mull over in one post.
This is beautiful. I wish more people got this and lived by it. The world would be a much better place.
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Isn't there a significant issue with the Japanese economy due in part to an extremely high savings (not investing, saving) rate of the people which is hindering economic growth and caused a decade of stagnation?
Especially with Japan, you need to separate the ideas of "work" and "financial independence" because they are not necessarily related.
Okay, this is going to be a bit of economic 1x1, it is about something that is nearly always forgotten, especially by neoliberals. So please sit sown, take a deep breath and read this and think about it:
For every dollar saved someone has one dollar dept.
Thats it. Sounds logical, right? If I give you a dollar, you are indepted to me by excatly one dollar.
If you save one dollar at the bank, you are a creditor of that bank, they are in dept to you by one dollar and you get e.g. 1% interest as a payment for that dollar.
If you take a dollar from that bank, the bank saved one dollar into you and charging you 10% for that privilege ;)
So if the japanese save so much money, who has it? Who has this dept?
Compared to other countries Japan has a very high rate of state dept. Mostly (also in difference to other countries) to its own people. Most of the japanese peoples savings are in the japanese state.
What did the government do with that money?
It invested it - into roads, schools and so on. GROWTH!!
The savings rate of a country have no influence at all on the economic growth, with the possible exception that a high savings rate makes the flow of money better so that it gets invested where the result is better.
That is true as long as the savings stay in the country, of course. And also as long as it is invested into the real economy. Not into derivatives of derivatives created by banks to sell at other banks.
Banks create money with the savings/dept mechanic. That is the reason why banks cropped up a few hundred years ago when even the richest person could not finance expeditions to india or the americas alone. Banks were a very important part in the industrialisation. But banks often no longer invest into real things, they "invest" into papers issued by other banks. That is arguably the reason for economic growth problems right now, too much money sloshing around without "working". (just one easy to understand example: Land prices have multiplied, but nothing was invested into machines or whatever to grow more, and even then, can you grow 3 times more wheat then before on already heavy industrialised land? No.)
And bloody stupid ideas by people like our german finance minister. Cut spending by workers, cut spending by retirees, cut spending by the state and miraculously companies will have more customers. Worked very well in Greece!
Err, that supposes that gov't spends it efficiently (maybe) and all of your growth is in infrastructure areas (probably why Japan is pretty well set there). But eventually the gov't runs out of shit to build. If no one buys anything, no other kind of industry can flourish. Plus the Yen is/was relatively high, meaning exports are less competitive.
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Err, that supposes that gov't spends it efficiently (maybe) and all of your growth is in infrastructure areas (probably why Japan is pretty well set there). But eventually the gov't runs out of shit to build. If no one buys anything, no other kind of industry can flourish. Plus the Yen is/was relatively high, meaning exports are less competitive.
No, it does not assume government spends it effectively. It just assumes a government spends it. How many governments do you know that spend money not?
If a gov spends it on people (not only road builders, but also nurses etc.), these people have money to spend. Circle circle circle.
In fact the circle is the most important think imo. Mostly everthing that is done today to "boost the economy" is trying to make this circle faster. Planned obsolescense is just one example. Advertisement in general is about making people spend more money (faster circle).
Ah, exports. Time for another little 1x1 in economics. So sit down...
Every nations export is another nations import.
Same stuff as with money, except the interest. If I give you a car, you got a car. And so on.
Globally the amount of imports is excactly the same as the amount of exports. That is why what neoliberals propose (eps bloody stupid Schäuble, sorry to say it again) cannot work in the long run: get "more competetive" by reducing wages. Because if country A does it, then country B has to do it too, to get "more competetive".
After a few years the competetive has run around the globe, with the only difference that now the people in all countries are poorer then before, which stiffeled growth in the country(s).
Same principle with the high/low Yen/Dollar/Euro. The Euro lowered by 20% in the last month. That was a necessary step for more competetiveness. Now China does the same. The only difference is it is now called Money War, not getting more competetive.
(Always the same propaganda: If Russia makes a manouver, its an aggressive war training, if the NATO does it, it is "showing strength and the ability to defend." In Russia its the same, I am sure, just the names reversed.)
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Err, that supposes that gov't spends it efficiently (maybe) and all of your growth is in infrastructure areas (probably why Japan is pretty well set there). But eventually the gov't runs out of shit to build. If no one buys anything, no other kind of industry can flourish. Plus the Yen is/was relatively high, meaning exports are less competitive.
No, it does not assume government spends it effectively. It just assumes a government spends it. How many governments do you know that spend money not?
If a gov spends it on people (not only road builders, but also nurses etc.), these people have money to spend. Circle circle circle.
In fact the circle is the most important think imo. Mostly everthing that is done today to "boost the economy" is trying to make this circle faster. Planned obsolescense is just one example. Advertisement in general is about making people spend more money (faster circle).
Ah, exports. Time for another little 1x1 in economics. So sit down...
Every nations export is another nations import.
Same stuff as with money, except the interest. If I give you a car, you got a car. And so on.
Globally the amount of imports is excactly the same as the amount of exports. That is why what neoliberals propose (eps bloody stupid Schäuble, sorry to say it again) cannot work in the long run: get "more competetive" by reducing wages. Because if country A does it, then country B has to do it too, to get "more competetive". (If B does not and you have one money, you get current europe where Germany will get another record export overflow this year, making all european nations even more indepted to Germany, stiffling that nations economy because the money does not get spend inside the countries.)
After a few years the competetive has run around the globe, with the only difference that now the people in all countries are poorer then before, which stiffeled growth in the country(s).
Same principle with the high/low Yen/Dollar/Euro. The Euro lowered by 20% in the last month. That was a necessary step for more competetiveness. Now China does the same. The only difference is it is now called Money War, not getting more competetive.
(Always the same propaganda: If Russia makes a manouver, its an aggressive war training, if the NATO does it, it is "showing strength and the ability to defend." In Russia its the same, I am sure, just the names reversed.)
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For every dollar saved someone has one dollar dept.
Please quit writing the abbreviation for "department" when you mean "debt" (with a "b!").
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Sorry, this is always a silly metric. Yes, in the US, we are not MANDATED holidays off, but how many employers never give them? Any? I have my Holiday calendar hanging next to me, I get 11 paid holidays plus 2 more "floating" that I can use for whatever. Just because something isn't required by law doesn't mean we don't get it.
Is that your opinion, or fact? If it's your opinion, that's fine, but if it's fact, go ahead and substantiate with actual data, not hypothesis.
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For every dollar saved someone has one dollar dept.
Please quit writing the abbreviation for "department" when you mean "debt" (with a "b!").
aha, sorry. Will try to remmber it. Since I have not much to do with both of them even in my original language i hope you excuse me ^^
But dont you think a p makes the hole more visible then a b?
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Something about Japanese culture that's different from the US is you pretty much can't leave work before your boss. If your boss is a workaholic and works really late, the other employees have to stay until he/she leaves. That's actually one of the causes of the Japanese in general working so late.
They also have a lot more mandatory office events - like after work drinking parties. If you do not go, and if you do go but don't drink alcohol, you are seen as a boring spoilsport and it looks bad on you office politics wise.
The work culture is a very large reason why I don't want to stay in Japan permanently and am leaving it soon. That and the fact that it's very hard for a foreigner to get to stay permanently. If I could stay permanently and actually be FIRE'd (meaning not having to work for the work visa), then I'd be OK with staying. Work visa is the easiest way to be in Japan if you're a foreigner and not married to a Japanese citizen. I don't know of a way to be FIRE here without being a Japanese citizen or married to one.
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Really? It's the company's fault?
I absolutely agree if you are at the poverty line maybe you need to do whatever the company wants if you can't get any other job, but in Japan and US? Common, people who are overworked pick those jobs and made those choices, or at least the choice not to leave. You can pick a job, pick a career, pick a company that doesn't work you to death, it's just a matter of choices. Spend less, work less, enjoy life more. Corporations are made up of the people who work there. Everyone stop working 50 hour weeks and the companies will adapt.
NOT saying the companies are doing the right thing, just saying we aren't fucking sheep.
When the culture is one of over-work, you may not really have a choice. What - you're gonna leave IBM and work for Microsoft? Congrats, you just got a different 100-hr week job, and now you're not vested.
No, in your example you wouldn't leave IBM for Microsoft, you would leave IBM for some other lower paying less of a rat race job, likely at a smaller and less desired employer that isn't going to let you climb to the top or make a big income and pad your resume like everyone wants. You don't get it all, you have to give up something to leave the rat race. In Japan maybe that would mean giving up your high status and honor in your culture, which might be hard or impossible to do. Changing or bucking your culture isn't something that happens lightly, but that doesn't mean it's not a choice.
Or maybe you run the rat race for 10 years and then get the fuck out. I'm not saying 50 or 100 hour work week is wrong for everyone, just saying it's a choice and don't blame the companies that enjoy the work of those willing to do it.
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For every dollar saved someone has one dollar dept.
Please quit writing the abbreviation for "department" when you mean "debt" (with a "b!").
aha, sorry. Will try to remmber it. Since I have not much to do with both of them even in my original language i hope you excuse me ^^
But dont you think a p makes the hole more visible then a b?
It does -- in fact, it screwed up my parsing enough that I had to stop and re-read every sentence in which it was used. (That's why I felt compelled to comment about it: I try not to indulge my grammar nazi tendencies unless the error changes the meaning of the sentence or makes it hard to read.)
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Now I understand why the birthrate is so low there: all work and no play, he he.
As part of a measure to combat it, the government encourages men to spend more hours assisting their wives with child rearing, and cites the fear of unemployment as being one of the causes of delayed marriage.
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2015/04/07/editorials/battling-the-low-birthrate/#.VdpRiuAo7mx
It is a big part of it. I read an interesting article several years ago about the low birth rates in Japan and Italy.
In Japan, much of it was the work ethic. In addition to men working crazy hours, women also work - if not full time, close to it. But women are *also* expected to help out aging parents AND take on most of the child care duties. So many women wait to have children or stop after one child.
In Italy it was "momma's boys", men who lived with their moms who did their laundry and cooked their dinner, and the unwillingness of modern Italian women to marry a child.
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Really? It's the company's fault?
I absolutely agree if you are at the poverty line maybe you need to do whatever the company wants if you can't get any other job, but in Japan and US? Common, people who are overworked pick those jobs and made those choices, or at least the choice not to leave. You can pick a job, pick a career, pick a company that doesn't work you to death, it's just a matter of choices. Spend less, work less, enjoy life more. Corporations are made up of the people who work there. Everyone stop working 50 hour weeks and the companies will adapt.
NOT saying the companies are doing the right thing, just saying we aren't fucking sheep.
When the culture is one of over-work, you may not really have a choice. What - you're gonna leave IBM and work for Microsoft? Congrats, you just got a different 100-hr week job, and now you're not vested.
No, in your example you wouldn't leave IBM for Microsoft, you would leave IBM for some other lower paying less of a rat race job, likely at a smaller and less desired employer that isn't going to let you climb to the top or make a big income and pad your resume like everyone wants. You don't get it all, you have to give up something to leave the rat race. In Japan maybe that would mean giving up your high status and honor in your culture, which might be hard or impossible to do. Changing or bucking your culture isn't something that happens lightly, but that doesn't mean it's not a choice.
Or maybe you run the rat race for 10 years and then get the fuck out. I'm not saying 50 or 100 hour work week is wrong for everyone, just saying it's a choice and don't blame the companies that enjoy the work of those willing to do it.
I'm not really sure how practical that is. I don't see that Japan needs a "stache", because I'm not sure they are terribly consumeristic.
Are there places with no "rat race"? It is acceptable, or even possible, to change jobs or quit? I don't know.
I have a friend from Korea, and he joked that even in high tech, once you are middle aged (mid 40's), you are not wanted anymore because you cost too much compared to the younger kids. So it's a joke that you buy and run a coffee shop or fried chicken place.
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But how about taking it one step further? Let's simply resolve to judge ourselves harshly and to judge others not at all.
Can you give me a little wiggle room to judge the guy living in public housing, using food stamps and
driving a car with $3,500 of wheels and tires? :-)
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But how about taking it one step further? Let's simply resolve to judge ourselves harshly and to judge others not at all.
Can you give me a little wiggle room to judge the guy living in public housing, using food stamps and
driving a car with $3,500 of wheels and tires? :-)
I'd say "no way" but that would be judgemental.
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But how about taking it one step further? Let's simply resolve to judge ourselves harshly and to judge others not at all.
Can you give me a little wiggle room to judge the guy living in public housing, using food stamps and
driving a car with $3,500 of wheels and tires? :-)
I'd say "no way" but that would be judgemental.
What about ISIS? They represent a thousand year old culture. Should we not judge them for cutting infidels' heads off and raping women and children? I'm just wondering where you draw the line on this?
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But how about taking it one step further? Let's simply resolve to judge ourselves harshly and to judge others not at all.
Can you give me a little wiggle room to judge the guy living in public housing, using food stamps and
driving a car with $3,500 of wheels and tires? :-)
I'd say "no way" but that would be judgemental.
What about ISIS? They represent a thousand year old culture. Should we not judge them for cutting infidels' heads off and raping women and children? I'm just wondering where you draw the line on this?
Nice premise: ISIS represents a 1000-year-old culture!
But I agree that judging actions is part and parcel of humanity. Personally I'm against rape and murder. They are counter productive and unpleasant. I am also in favor of legal judgments when it comes to crimes and civil matters. Such structure makes for a happy populous as well as a more productive economy.
Judging entire cultures on the other hand is neither useful nor happiness inducing, in my opinion. Although I do suppose that it leads to a certain amount of pleasant self-satisfied smugness in some people.
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Japan's culture is very different about this. They value time spent at work much more than time actually working. Sleeping at your desk is considered noble; going home and sleeping at home so you can be more productive is... not.
Until they fix that, you can blame company and employee equally, because they together share the culture of expecting and doing this crazy shit.
Doesn't really concern me - it's pretty nice that they're buying our tech instead of the other way around. They can work themselves to death in order to buy the shit that pays my salary if they want.
I spent a couple weeks temping in the credit office of a Japanese company here in Manhattan. It was one of the most fascinating work experiences of my life.
1. The office was so quiet you could hear a pin drop, all the time.
2. Everyone kept absolutely immaculate desks.
3. There was this sort of perverse competition about who would stay latest. Temps are paid hourly and most companies cut you off at 40 hours a week, because they pay quite a high rate to your agency already and don't want to pay time and a half on top of that. I could get as much OT as I wanted, as long as I was at my desk looking busy.
4. My bosses were very confused when I'd come ask for more work.
5. People were much, much more formal than in the US. Nobody slouched at their desks. People presented their business card to you with two hands and you accepted it two handed. Much more formal body language on the whole.
6. They had the most organized supply closets I have ever seen.
These are terrific observations.
When I think of stereotypically Japanese qualities, that I observe when I am there I think of ...
Neatness/organization. Even homeless people keep their spots under bridges immaculate, with ersatz landscaping!
And
A high tolerance for boredom.
I have neither of these qualities and do I admire them greatly.
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Nice premise: ISIS represents a 1000-year-old culture!
But I agree that judging actions is part and parcel of humanity. Personally I'm against rape and murder. They are counter productive and unpleasant. I am also in favor of legal judgments when it comes to crimes and civil matters. Such structure makes for a happy populous as well as a more productive economy.
Judging entire cultures on the other hand is neither useful nor happiness inducing, in my opinion. Although I do suppose that it leads to a certain amount of pleasant self-satisfied smugness in some people.
I think you've taken some of the contents of this thread too personally. Every culture has room for improvement. One of the ways we can learn is by studying what other societies are doing right and what they are doing wrong. You're choosing to view that as judgement, but nobody is saying Japanese culture on the whole is inferior. I would imagine a great many people commenting have a high regard for Japanese culture.
The article is pointing out problems (working 20 hour days, death by suicide) that are counter productive and unpleasant. If you care about Japanese culture and society then you should be concerned about this. There have been many cultures throughout history that have self-destructed due to their unbending commitment to values that were not in their best long-term interests.
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Marriage for Japanese women seems like a raw deal. It would actually be less work for the women if they were expected to quit work after marriage and stay home.
Generally speaking, they are.
From my observations the majority of japanese women leave their jobs when they have kids and this is treated as the norm, with it being the exception for a mother to return to work after maternity leave. Many mothers will look for part-time work after the kids have reached school age and their schedules stabilize with some blocks of available time.
There were a number of stories in the news somewhat recently about increasing numbers of young japanese women aspiring to be housewives instead of career women.
Here's one (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-31792714) from the BBC, quoting the study that got people talking.
Even more surprisingly, the number of married women in their 20s who think women should stay at home and focus on housework has risen from 35.7% in 2003 to 41.6% in 2013. That's according to the National Survey on Family by the Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare.
Two thirds of them think mothers shouldn't be back at work until the children are three years old, and about the same percentage of women give up their jobs after having their first child.
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The work culture is a very large reason why I don't want to stay in Japan permanently and am leaving it soon. That and the fact that it's very hard for a foreigner to get to stay permanently. If I could stay permanently and actually be FIRE'd (meaning not having to work for the work visa), then I'd be OK with staying. Work visa is the easiest way to be in Japan if you're a foreigner and not married to a Japanese citizen. I don't know of a way to be FIRE here without being a Japanese citizen or married to one.
It depends. Permanent residency is apparently quite a bit easier to get now than it used to be, but being married to a Japanese national helps a lot. But I have heard of a number of single or married-to-non-Japanese people getting permanent residency, and a friend of mine just did it herself. Basically, have a stable, professional job, pay your taxes, avoid trouble with the law, appear like a reasonable, upstanding citizen, repeat for ten years or so, then apply for PR. Someone working and saving for FIRE is probably doing most of these already.
I got my PR after living here about ten years, but granted, I married a Japanese, owned property, and was pretty obviously here for the long haul. I'm probably not going to be retiring very early, but it is nice to have the option.
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Fail to see any link between the article and stache growing. Japan really needs to mandate restrictions on overwork and reconsider toxic management expectations in company culture is more accurate. I was expecting to read about how indebted and consumerist the Japanese are, and it's nothing of the sort.
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To be fair, mmm is not solely about saving money and not buying things. It's about finding what's important in life and arranging your life such that you can do those things. In America, the barrier to that is often consumerism. In Japan, I'd guess it would far more often be toxic work cultures.
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To be fair, mmm is not solely about saving money and not buying things. It's about finding what's important in life and arranging your life such that you can do those things. In America, the barrier to that is often consumerism. In Japan, I'd guess it would far more often be toxic work cultures.
Spot on.
To me Mustachianism = happiness optimization. That is why the grueling Japanese work environment resonates as a prime example of un-Mustachian living (cultural expectations aside).
Growing your savings, shunning consumerism, and retiring early are simply the natural side effects when you really drill down to what is important for your happiness.
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To be fair, mmm is not solely about saving money and not buying things. It's about finding what's important in life and arranging your life such that you can do those things. In America, the barrier to that is often consumerism. In Japan, I'd guess it would far more often be toxic work cultures.
Spot on.
To me Mustachianism = happiness optimization. That is why the grueling Japanese work environment resonates as a prime example of un-Mustachian living (cultural expectations aside).
Growing your savings, shunning consumerism, and retiring early are simply the natural side effects when you really drill down to what is important for your happiness.
So you clearly believe in a "one size fits all" approach to happiness? (cultural expectations aside.)
But then why ignore cultural expectations which surely impact happiness for such a social animal as a human?
The whole statement presumes that you have insight into anyone's happiness but your own. To me this seems quite a presumption indeed.
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The whole statement presumes that you have insight into anyone's happiness but your own. To me this seems quite a presumption indeed.
It's just research results from countless studies, admittedly almost exclusivly in wealthy countries, because there are the scientists and you cant test what happens if you downsize with families that try to get the money together to have something to eat.
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The whole statement presumes that you have insight into anyone's happiness but your own. To me this seems quite a presumption indeed.
You don't think you have insight into what makes other people happy? That's really surprising to me. Most humans have a trait called empathy that allows them to make reasonably good guesses about what will make other people happy. Doesn't always work but it's a damn sight better than flipping a coin. The lifestyle of the Japanese professional does not seem broadly conducive to happiness.
No need to take my empathy's word for it, though. There's also a nifty thing called science (http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2015/04/24/world/offbeat-world/top-world-happy-index-switzerland-scandinavia/#.VeVCEfZVhBc) that can help us zero in on the truth as well. Japanese people are comparatively unhappy, given their country's wealth and relative freedom from baser forms of human suffering.
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To be fair, mmm is not solely about saving money and not buying things. It's about finding what's important in life and arranging your life such that you can do those things. In America, the barrier to that is often consumerism. In Japan, I'd guess it would far more often be toxic work cultures.
Spot on.
To me Mustachianism = happiness optimization. That is why the grueling Japanese work environment resonates as a prime example of un-Mustachian living (cultural expectations aside).
Growing your savings, shunning consumerism, and retiring early are simply the natural side effects when you really drill down to what is important for your happiness.
So you clearly believe in a "one size fits all" approach to happiness? (cultural expectations aside.)
But then why ignore cultural expectations which surely impact happiness for such a social animal as a human?
The whole statement presumes that you have insight into anyone's happiness but your own. To me this seems quite a presumption indeed.
Your avatar is a photo of (presumably) you standing by a lake holding a fish. Clearly you value recreational time as a factor of happiness for yourself at least. If we could all stop being so tippy-toey about cultural norms there might be less of the sort of thing that should be banned universally, like female circumcision, gulags, imprisonment and stoning of rape victims, and even culturally expected 100-hour work weeks.
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I have no problem theorizing about what makes me happy personally. I am a mustachian. I enjoy free time and walking and working on lots of different projects at once. I like fishing and long meals and craft cocktails and baseball and Elvis Costello.
But it's not empathy to theorize that everyone shares my preferences and values. It's solipsism.
Empathy is actually quite the opposite of what "obstinate" describes. It is the ability to put yourself someone else's shoes. Someone who is not like you who has different history and values.
Clearly what makes me happy is not what makes Elon Musk, or snoop dog happy.
This is a lesson you should have learned in preschool. It's not rocket science.
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I have no problem theorizing about what makes me happy personally. I am a mustachian. I enjoy free time and walking and working on lots of different projects at once. I like fishing and long meals and craft cocktails and baseball and Elvis Costello.
But it's not empathy to theorize that everyone shares my preferences and values. It's solipsism.
Empathy is actually quite the opposite of what "obstinate" describes. It is the ability to put yourself someone else's shoes. Someone who is not like you who has different history and values.
Clearly what makes me happy is not what makes Elon Musk, or snoop dog happy.
This is a lesson you should have learned in preschool. It's not rocket science.
Elon Musk, or Snoop Dogg, or you, are individuals pursuing an internal vision of self-fulfillment. That is markedly different from an entire set of cultural norms that pressurize individuals to conform to a set of expectations unrelated to what they would choose for themselves.
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I have no problem theorizing about what makes me happy personally. I am a mustachian. I enjoy free time and walking and working on lots of different projects at once. I like fishing and long meals and craft cocktails and baseball and Elvis Costello.
But it's not empathy to theorize that everyone shares my preferences and values. It's solipsism.
Empathy is actually quite the opposite of what "obstinate" describes. It is the ability to put yourself someone else's shoes. Someone who is not like you who has different history and values.
Clearly what makes me happy is not what makes Elon Musk, or snoop dog happy.
This is a lesson you should have learned in preschool. It's not rocket science.
Elon Musk, or Snoop Dogg, or you, are individuals pursuing an internal vision of self-fulfillment. That is markedly different from an entire set of cultural norms that pressurize individuals to conform to a set of expectations unrelated to what they would choose for themselves.
You should re read the thread. In this tangent you are arguing that you know what makes other people, and that it is the same as what makes you happy.
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I have no problem theorizing about what makes me happy personally. I am a mustachian. I enjoy free time and walking and working on lots of different projects at once. I like fishing and long meals and craft cocktails and baseball and Elvis Costello.
But it's not empathy to theorize that everyone shares my preferences and values. It's solipsism.
Empathy is actually quite the opposite of what "obstinate" describes. It is the ability to put yourself someone else's shoes. Someone who is not like you who has different history and values.
Clearly what makes me happy is not what makes Elon Musk, or snoop dog happy.
This is a lesson you should have learned in preschool. It's not rocket science.
Elon Musk, or Snoop Dogg, or you, are individuals pursuing an internal vision of self-fulfillment. That is markedly different from an entire set of cultural norms that pressurize individuals to conform to a set of expectations unrelated to what they would choose for themselves.
You should re read the thread. In this tangent you are arguing that you know what makes other people, and that it is the same as what makes you happy.
Nobody is saying that they know what makes other people happy, I don't even know where you're getting this idea from. I do know that cultural norms shift over time because they become outmoded, or irrelevant to current living conditions, or deleterious to the wellbeing of the citizenry, or simply proven to be wrong. Would it be a bad idea to hold Japan's work ethic up to some scrutiny?
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I have no problem theorizing about what makes me happy personally. I am a mustachian. I enjoy free time and walking and working on lots of different projects at once. I like fishing and long meals and craft cocktails and baseball and Elvis Costello.
But it's not empathy to theorize that everyone shares my preferences and values. It's solipsism.
Empathy is actually quite the opposite of what "obstinate" describes. It is the ability to put yourself someone else's shoes. Someone who is not like you who has different history and values.
Clearly what makes me happy is not what makes Elon Musk, or snoop dog happy.
This is a lesson you should have learned in preschool. It's not rocket science.
Elon Musk, or Snoop Dogg, or you, are individuals pursuing an internal vision of self-fulfillment. That is markedly different from an entire set of cultural norms that pressurize individuals to conform to a set of expectations unrelated to what they would choose for themselves.
You should re read the thread. In this tangent you are arguing that you know what makes other people, and that it is the same as what makes you happy.
Nobody is saying that they know what makes other people happy, I don't even know where you're getting this idea from. I do know that cultural norms shift over time because they become outmoded, or irrelevant to current living conditions, or deleterious to the wellbeing of the citizenry, or simply proven to be wrong. Would it be a bad idea to hold Japan's work ethic up to some scrutiny?
Re read post 65. Keep up dude!
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So you clearly believe in a "one size fits all" approach to happiness? (cultural expectations aside.)
But then why ignore cultural expectations which surely impact happiness for such a social animal as a human?
The whole statement presumes that you have insight into anyone's happiness but your own. To me this seems quite a presumption indeed.
Did you read the article that started this thread? I'm not presuming anything. The lady featured has the symptoms of depression.
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I'm responding to what you wrote specifically. Not the article.
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But it's not empathy to theorize that everyone shares my preferences and values. It's solipsism.
No, solipsism a philosophical idea that you are the only thing that exists.
Empathy is actually quite the opposite of what "obstinate" describes. It is the ability to put yourself someone else's shoes. Someone who is not like you who has different history and values.
Yea, and putting myself in Japanese people's shoes, even accounting for their different values, their culture seems pretty screwed up and liable to have a negative effect on happiness. Clearly they agree with me, given the science I posted, which you conveniently ignored.
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Honestly, I don't believe that you think it is wrong to judge other people's cultures and value systems. I believe you are confused, and you know that there are adages that say "don't judge," and you haven't stopped to think about whether those adages make sense. If you did believe what you're saying, you'd be one of the people who come in here and say, "I can't believe that MMM would say that spending money is a bad idea and is likely to make me less happy."
Because that is exactly what this site's founder does in most of his articles. He makes a value judgment and says, "This is better than that." Not in the sense of being intrinsically better in a spiritual/moral sense. But in a sense of "likely to improve the happiness of a human being." Who, after all, all come from the same evolutionary-psychological origin.
We humans aren't all the same, but we're similar. Most of us want shelter, food, companionship, free-time, self-actualization. I'm sure you can find someone who would enjoy being starved to death. But most people want food. I'm sure you could find someone who enjoys being shackled to the office fourteen hours a day until the boss decides to go home. But most do not, and culture doesn't really change that so much. If a culture enables its more powerful members to starve people to death, I'm gonna call that out. Same with one that encourages widespread overwork.
The truth of what I'm saying is clearly indicated by numerous studies showing that the Japanese are the least happy bunch of industrialized people in the entire world.
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But it's not empathy to theorize that everyone shares my preferences and values. It's solipsism.
No, solipsism a philosophical idea that you are the only thing that exists.
Empathy is actually quite the opposite of what "obstinate" describes. It is the ability to put yourself someone else's shoes. Someone who is not like you who has different history and values.
Yea, and putting myself in Japanese people's shoes, even accounting for their different values, their culture seems pretty screwed up and liable to have a negative effect on happiness. Clearly they agree with me, given the science I posted, which you conveniently ignored.
Oh did you think I ignored your "science?"
If by science you mean a japan times article on "the 2015 world happiness report," then you should thank me for not pointing out that you haven't the foggiest notion of what science is.
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That and the OECD better life index, the UN's 2013 world happiness report, etc. And any tabulation of rates of depression and suicide in the industrial world. Actually, pretty much every survey or study on happiness or happiness-related matters that I've been able to lay my hands on.
I'd love to hear what science is and how it excludes studies like these.
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To be fair, mmm is not solely about saving money and not buying things. It's about finding what's important in life and arranging your life such that you can do those things. In America, the barrier to that is often consumerism. In Japan, I'd guess it would far more often be toxic work cultures.
Spot on.
To me Mustachianism = happiness optimization. That is why the grueling Japanese work environment resonates as a prime example of un-Mustachian living (cultural expectations aside).
Growing your savings, shunning consumerism, and retiring early are simply the natural side effects when you really drill down to what is important for your happiness.
So you clearly believe in a "one size fits all" approach to happiness? (cultural expectations aside.)
But then why ignore cultural expectations which surely impact happiness for such a social animal as a human?
In this country young boys of a certain tribe still submit to barbaric circumcision rituals that endanger their lives and risk the health of their genitals. There might be some happiness derived from conformity to social norms, but it doesn't mean those norms shouldn't be questioned and changed.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Go ahead cerebus, start the circumcision thread.
I dare you.
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Go ahead cerebus, start the circumcision thread.
I dare you.
I'm not anti-circumcision per se, but I am definitely anti-circumcision-with-sharp-stones.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/28/south-africa-circumcision
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Fail to see any link between the article and stache growing. Japan really needs to mandate restrictions on overwork and reconsider toxic management expectations in company culture is more accurate. I was expecting to read about how indebted and consumerist the Japanese are, and it's nothing of the sort.
While it is certainly not as common, we have similar overwork in the States and no one has mandated it stop. Husband consistently worked 100+ hours weeks at his last job. It was pretty brutal and I feared for his health. His employer? Uncle Sam. This thread seems to ignore that similar conditions exist all over, including right in our [Americans'] backyard.
Also, most Japanese women do leave the workforce after having children, at least for a while. I wonder how many people in this thread have actually spent time in Japan or with Japanese people. High tolerance for boredom? As opposed to Americans who sit on the sofa for hours?
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Fail to see any link between the article and stache growing. Japan really needs to mandate restrictions on overwork and reconsider toxic management expectations in company culture is more accurate. I was expecting to read about how indebted and consumerist the Japanese are, and it's nothing of the sort.
While it is certainly not as common, we have similar overwork in the States and no one has mandated it stop.
Yup. The Europeans look at us the way we look at the Japanese--working all the time, no real vacations.
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Well I mentioned that we have similar problems in the US (up thread somewhere).
Also wanted to say is that what ISIS is doing is saying that there were certain things that were happening during the time of the prophet Muhammed therefore the prophet approved of them, which is not the case. Islam isn't about raping women and beheading people.
I think I finally understand how the OP, in a round about way, wants Japan to grow a mustache, although Japanese unhappiness stems from different soco-political issues. Go against the grain of workaholic-ism and all that.
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Yup. The Europeans look at us the way we look at the Japanese--working all the time, no real vacations.
And, as an American, they're freakin' right. This is one place the US is dead wrong, one among many. :)
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But how about taking it one step further? Let's simply resolve to judge ourselves harshly and to judge others not at all.
Can you give me a little wiggle room to judge the guy living in public housing, using food stamps and
driving a car with $3,500 of wheels and tires? :-)
Depends, do you know his life story? Maybe he can't find work but scrounged those wheels up in exchange for some labour. Maybe they were a gift from a relative in better financial circumstances and are the one thing that helps him to hold his head up when he goes outside. Maybe they are all that's left from before he fell on hard times. Maybe 1000 other things.
Maybe or even probably not, but we don't really know. Since we don't know, how about we don't get all smug and critical of what other people are doing? The 'I saw a poor person with an iPhone so all social programs are bullshit' concept is just lazy.