Author Topic: It is different this time - Inflation/Deflation  (Read 24341 times)

tooqk4u22

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It is different this time - Inflation/Deflation
« on: May 01, 2012, 01:43:04 PM »
This a topic that is, or should be, on the minds of everyone and there are plenty of posts within this site and other sites, articles, etc.  The problem is I don't think anybody has any clue - I certainly feel that I don't.  And not because people are not intelligent or generally don't understand the concept. On one hand there could be no better time in history to invest in whatever, on the other hand maybe not - I have no idea.  The problem is that all assumptions are based on history and if anything the last decade has demonstrated that things work differently than they used to.  Case in point is that the governement has dumped so much into the system, rates are ridiculously low, liquidity is more than plentiful and yet there is no real hiring, GDP growth is slow, housing is still terrible, etc. 

The thing is there are several factors that I think make it different this time (none of which are original).

1. Two decade long bull market in bonds (i.e. ever declining interest rates).

2. Globalized economy (mostly Asia).

3. Boomers - large population/two incomes.

4.  Declining Taxe Rates

5.  Increasing Debt Loads

The government helped screw this up - when everything was good and all the stars were aligned for prosperous economic growth it continued to expand and increase the deficit, which only got worse when the shit hit the fan.  It used to be that when times were good the government reduced or at least reduced the debt burden and when it was bad it turned on the spigot.  Also do the math on $13Trillion in US debt at 3-4% on average - even if the debt doesn't increase and the rates double the US will default.  Ouch. 

The combination of the above resulted in a extremely prosperous time that allowed tangible asset values to rise but inflation was largely kept in check because imports of cheap crap increased exponentially, technolgical advancement, and the declining interest rates offseting the increased debt loads.  I am sure someone will point out the latest data that food is a lower portion of budgets now than 50 years ago but keep in mind that with imports, modern seed and fertilizer technology, and equipment the yield per acre/animal is far greater than what it was then and combined with our processed food rich diet has caused food deflation over that period.

The single biggest risk is rising rates and increased debt burden.  The good scenario is if rates rise because of an improving economy, but if they rise because debt is deemed too risky (a la europe) watch out.  If you bought a house in 1990 you would have needed a down payment and the interest rate would have been 9% for good credit - do the math on a $100K mortgage it would be a $804/mo payment.  Today at 4% it would be $477/month - helps offset inflation.  This goes through to everything that was or could be financed with some for of debt (oh wait that is our entire economy). Some will say that the housing collapse rigthed the problem and we are back to normal price levels - I agree with this as it was regression to the mean - look at a chart of housing prices and draw a line it it would seem we are back to a normal level but now we have to factor in the low interest rates.  So we are staring at increasing interest rates, increasing taxes, a boomer population that is approaching retirement (not that they will be able to), the boomer kids (gen y, millenials) are all unemployed (partly because their parents can't stop working), technological efficiency, a deleveraging environment, etc.  I don't want to be a naysayer but it is an uphill battle - housing prices may have bottomed but they aren't going anywhere for a decade and that is simply due to rates - contrary to popular belief though I still think homeownership is engrained in us and that will provide support for the market.

To me it feels like we are heading into an environment of stagflation or possibly a mix where basic goods and food inflate higher than normal but tangible asset prices are flat or maybe decling. 

A long post but I am curious as to the thoughts - as I said I don't have a clue.  I am tired of the direction we are headed (both sides of the political isle contributed equally to this mess and most likely will continue to do so).

bdub

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Re: It is different this time - Inflation/Deflation
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2012, 08:08:00 AM »
I think I can sum up everything you just said in one sentence:  "The future is uncertain".

The good thing is, the answer hasn't changed and isn't different regardless of the actual path the future holds:  work hard, acquire new and marketable skills, live below your means and save/invest the rest, eat healthy, exercise often, drink in excess occasionally, build social capital and love like there is no tomorrow.


James

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Re: It is different this time - Inflation/Deflation
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2012, 08:19:28 AM »
The two posts pretty much cover my thoughts, so I don't have much to add.  I think the most positive thing is that Mustachian living is the best answer to all the questions and uncertainty.  It's the ultimate hedge, you are set for good times as well as bad times.

judgemebymyusername

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Re: It is different this time - Inflation/Deflation
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2012, 04:53:30 PM »
The four most dangerous words in investing are "This time it's different".
-John Templeton

tooqk4u22

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Re: It is different this time - Inflation/Deflation
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2012, 07:52:08 AM »
The four most dangerous words in investing are "This time it's different".
-John Templeton

I agree with this but almost all of the time when someone says this it is used generally to downplay the negative change that occurred.  I think I am saying the opposite or at least I think there is a lot of ignorance out there about how leverage, interest rates, inflation, etc affect markets/values.  I don't know if there has ever been a time like this or not, but if there was it was long time ago and things are different - just the technology alone makes a big difference.

arebelspy

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Re: It is different this time - Inflation/Deflation
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2012, 07:56:36 AM »
I agree with this but almost all of the time when someone says this it is used generally to downplay the negative change that occurred.  I think I am saying the opposite or at least I think there is a lot of ignorance out there about how leverage, interest rates, inflation, etc affect markets/values.  I don't know if there has ever been a time like this or not, but if there was it was long time ago and things are different - just the technology alone makes a big difference.

So basically you're saying "I agree with this... except that I completely disagree and it's wrong, and actually is different this time."

;)
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tooqk4u22

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Re: It is different this time - Inflation/Deflation
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2012, 08:00:50 AM »
I think I can sum up everything you just said in one sentence:  "The future is uncertain".

The good thing is, the answer hasn't changed and isn't different regardless of the actual path the future holds:  work hard, acquire new and marketable skills, live below your means and save/invest the rest, eat healthy, exercise often, drink in excess occasionally, build social capital and love like there is no tomorrow.

Not a real useful response....wow the future is uncertain, I would have never thought of that.  I guess we should all just stick our head in the sand because we can't control anything so what's the point.  With the post I was just trying to spur a more analytical discussion as to how these forces could play out.  I get economic theory and maybe it is still valid, but maybe not.  I do think stagflation is a concern.

“The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination.”--Albert Einstein. Thinking outside the box and against the conventional grain is a good thing, doesn't mean the results prove right but if you afraid to get out of the comort zone and challenge conventional wisdom once in awhile there would be no progress - is the world flat.

BTW I agree with your way to live points but sometimes that may not be enough. 


tooqk4u22

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Re: It is different this time - Inflation/Deflation
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2012, 08:03:25 AM »
So basically you're saying "I agree with this... except that I completely disagree and it's wrong, and actually is different this time."

;)
[/quote]

I don't know if it is or isn't, I tend to think it is, but I don't know. 

arebelspy

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Re: It is different this time - Inflation/Deflation
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2012, 08:18:18 AM »
I think inflation is a possibility.  I think stagflation is a possibility.  I think deflation is a possibility.

I have heard compelling arguments for these possibilities, and more.  I frankly don't know.  I'm trying to get myself in as good of a position as possible to handle any of these scenarios, and more.  Trying to pick what I think will happen, accounting solely for that, and then being wrong is not something I'm willing to risk.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

bdub

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Re: It is different this time - Inflation/Deflation
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2012, 09:42:05 AM »
With the post I was just trying to spur a more analytical discussion as to how these forces could play out.

Here, I will play along then to spur the discussion:

Scenario #1:  The federal government and all of the related bureaucracy (the Fed, World Bank, EU, Luminati) continue the shell game until we have a real credit crisis (i.e., the 2nd and 3rd world countries refuse to buy our debt anymore) and we see massive defaults in sovereign debt or unsustainable rates.  This is followed by massive currency devaluation to minimize the relative size of the debt to make it affordable.  This leads China to launch a trade war with the US.  This lead to US Navy ships playing war games along the coast of China.  A shot is fired, Russia sides up with its fellow communist country which causes the EU to partner up with the US and WW3 ensues.  China kills millions of Americans with US-developed weaponry.   End result:  massive inflation, millions of dead people and a new world order.


Scenario #2:  The federal government and all of the related bureaucracy (the Fed, World Bank, EU, Luminati) continue the shell game while making incremental improvements to our debt structure.  A small percentage raise in taxes (or economic growth) plus a continuation of the efficiency gains in health care plus a raising of the retirement age from 67 to 69 cause Medicare and SS to become solvent for the next 100 years.  China and the oil barons continue to park their cash in the most stable place (US treasuries).  Meanwhile, the EU resolves the Greek credit crisis by finally writing off the debt once and for all, the other PIIGS grow there way out of debt by increasing the exports to the new middle class rising in the BRIC countries.   European and US households continue to deleverage their debt as home prices continue to stabilize, unemployment continues to decrease and credit return to normalcy.  The lives of billions of 3rd world folks continue to improve as we provide more clean water, better farming practices, micro-energy solutions, literacy rates increase and the Internet continues to spread the benefits of democracy for all.  The natural result of this is a decrease in the world's population and less strain on Mother Earth.  End result:  healthy economic growth, better lives for all, economic/investment growth and stable democratic nations worldwide.

Now, which scenario above is the right one?  I don't know.  I tend to believe that most people don't want to starve, don't want to die in a war and don't want to be oppressed.  Maybe I am a hopeless optimist.

But all of this is just mindless navel-gazing, a luxury for the cubicle-class 1st world folks on these boards.  Hell, I just wasted a lot of my employer's money typing this up but I will still get to leave at 5 o'clock today and spend the next 3 days fishing.  Life sure is sweet!

tooqk4u22

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Re: It is different this time - Inflation/Deflation
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2012, 09:49:18 AM »
Awesome - that is what I am looking for.  Optimism or pessimism, its all good using the brain.  Now wasn't that fun.  I want more.  I like your #2 - the outcome is probably best case scenario but I don't think the political jokers have the stones to get it to just that point. 

bdub

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Re: It is different this time - Inflation/Deflation
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2012, 02:58:55 PM »
Awesome - that is what I am looking for.  Optimism or pessimism, its all good using the brain.  Now wasn't that fun.  I want more.  I like your #2 - the outcome is probably best case scenario but I don't think the political jokers have the stones to get it to just that point.

Sure, all the politicians are in the pockets of the lobbyist.  They don't work for us; this probably won't change.  But how much would the 1%'ers really gain by a collapse of the US economy?  Contrary to popular belief, the folks on Wall Street and in the Capitol are probably not that stupid.  They want to get/stay rich while keeping the ship afloat.  Sting sang "I hope the Russians love their children too" during the cold war, I think the same could be said for the rich and powerful today.

BenDarDunDat

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Re: It is different this time - Inflation/Deflation
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2012, 07:43:31 AM »
Many things are different, but many things are the same. In another century, the US was the scrappy industrial nation that put a hurting on the European colonialists. Then Japan assumed the throne. Now, it's China. The Currency wars aren't very different either- that's happened before too. The use of debt, that's been done many times before. It'll pan out the same way as before.

The thing that's different in my opinion is the sheer number of people that are alive now. We are exhausting oil reserves, water reserves, fisheries etc. and because it's different, we don't know what to do. I mean, sure, someone will write books about what we should do etc. But really, I think that gives entirely too much credit to us as a species. It'd be like giving some mice a big block of cheese with instructions for them to leave some for their children. It just isn't going to happen.

 

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