Author Topic: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?  (Read 6839 times)

QueyWet

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Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« on: May 11, 2019, 10:39:22 AM »
I am a male in my mid 20's.
I cannot even support myself and I need financial support from my parents.
If I will have children I will never be able to achieve FIRE.

M0ntana

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2019, 10:43:27 AM »
Children are expensive, sure, but they are much more than that.

If you do not feel like they are a worthy investment of your time and money, then yes, you would probably be better off building up your stash by staying single and childless.

Still, I get from your post that you are currently not in a financial place to even consider having children. I'd work on getting my ducks in order first and finding the right partner before making such definitive statements about something so important. Things do change!


Kris

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2019, 10:49:50 AM »
Yep.

But people will continue to have them.

Honestly, there is a MMM blog post about this, too. And he talks a lot about parenting and mustachianism.

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but creating all these posts asking questions without first actually reading MMM is going to be a little wearing to many members. I suggest you start reading his blog from the beginning. Your questions will be answered, and you won’t wear out your welcome.

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/04/06/meet-mr-money-mustache/

qwerty3020

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2019, 11:01:13 AM »
I've been thinking about this alot lately because DH and I would be close to FIRE if we weren't parents. The number of unknowns when you have small children is huge and the risk of RE is too high for us to give up our jobs and employer-sponsored health care for the next few years. I am very risk-averse. Other people might choose differently.

If you want to retire early, having kids might not be the best choice. That being said, part of FI is having the money to do the things you want to do. If you want to have kids, make sure you can afford them and do it.


Cassie

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2019, 12:00:15 PM »
First thing to do is start supporting yourself.

MoneyTree

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2019, 12:33:15 PM »
FIRE is about having enough money to produce enough income to allow you to pursue what you want in life. Its not about getting rid of every possible thing that can produce expenses. If that were true, you could say that eating any food more expensive than rice and beans is antithesis to being FIRE.

Having children increases your expenses. This is 100% true. Having children delays your FIRE date. This is also true. But it does not mean it is at odds with being FIRE.

In fact, having children and wanting the freedom to be able to spend time with them as they grow up is one of the main motivations for many people to pursue FIRE, myself included.

Given your current situation, I think there are some other questions for you to tackle first before deciding whether or not having kids is the right choice.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2019, 12:34:54 PM by MoneyTree »

ixtap

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2019, 12:37:05 PM »
Just another factor in expenses.

Being financially dependent on someone else, however, is indeed the antithesis of financial independence.

MoneyTree

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2019, 12:41:52 PM »
Being financially dependent on someone else, however, is indeed the antithesis of financial independence.

Nailed it.

One

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2019, 06:10:39 PM »
Children are expensive, you'll possibly have regrets and be lonely later in life if you don't have any.  Wait as long as possible and only have one. You could also adopt a kid later in life when financially stable or post fat FIRE.

ObviouslyNotAGolfer

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2019, 06:41:08 PM »
No kids here. ZERO regrets. In addition to saving a shite ton of money, we have fabulous amounts of free time. We are off to France for three weeks--no screaming babies, toddlers, teenagers, trips to Di$ney--just endless freedom!

Tomorrow is Sunday, sleeping in until 11 again. ;) (Have to get up at 9-10 during the week)

Villanelle

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2019, 06:49:33 PM »
Do you even want kids?  If not, then what's the point of the question.

Yet again since I know you've gotten this advice multiple times in the threads you've started, I'd encourage you to read the blog.  In the MMM context, FIRE is about evaluating your spending priorities and spending wisely to actually make yourself happy.  It is not about saving every possible penny.  If it was, MMM would not live in a medium COL place or have a child.  Or a nice house.  Or, or, or. 

That said, it's a whiny, complainypants (READ THE BLOG--that's a MMM thing) excuse to say that if you have kids you can never FIRE.  If you want to make it work, you will.  If you don't, that's fine, too.  Certainly, not everyone needs to have kids.  I'm married, and my spouse and I don't, even though we were married in our 20s and our childrearing ages are nearly over.  I don't regret that one tiny bit and I would do it again exactly the same.  But if you want them, you can find ways to make it work, just as  thousands of other FIRErs have. 

You see to be looking for reasons to dismiss the FIRE lifestyle.  (This post, as well as your other threads.)  If it's not for you, cool.  But all this is based on the blog, which you haven't read.  So start there, rather than asking others to do the work of spoon-feeding it to you.  Because part of the MMM culture is a DIY, figure it out yourself, don't be lazy and needy kind of mentality.

Radagast

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2019, 09:07:41 PM »
Being FIRE means being free to do whatever you want to do most in life without concern for money, whatever that is.

use2betrix

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2019, 09:14:16 PM »
These threads are painful.

ObviouslyNotAGolfer

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2019, 10:36:51 PM »
All true, everything I said! (But yes, I am a cynical, smartass in general) ;)

Goldielocks

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2019, 11:29:07 PM »
I am a male in my mid 20's.
I cannot even support myself and I need financial support from my parents.
If I will have children I will never be able to achieve FIRE.
If I did not have kids, I probably would not have chosen to FIRE.   The combination of super stressed out me (from FT work plus kids), and the current need to want to be more present for them, drove me to go for FIRE much earlier than I would have otherwise.

Sure, I don't have a lot of money in FIRE, but the trade off is worth it.  Without kids, maybe money would have more imporatance to me.

londonbanker

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2019, 12:48:01 AM »
100% spot on.
Having Children is THE reason that motivated me to work towards independence. Until you have them you don’t realise this is the most precious thing you will do and have in your life. Spending more time with them becomes the target - hence FiRE!
Do not forget that you need a partner to have children :-) so from a financial standpoint, you from 1 income to 2, while your cost base barely goes up... that’s how you do it !

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2019, 05:27:11 AM »
Well, the hypothesis doesn’t really make sense as there are plenty who have FIRED with kids, but, if we accept that you’re not just trolling, you can look at MMM himself or Arebelspy as two examples of people who did the FIRE first, then have kids, which seems ideal to me. So maybe, forget kids now, just focus on getting a better job or working multiple jobs and side-hustles, saving as much as you can, removing debts and spend the next 10 years achieving FIRE. You’ll still have plenty of time to meet a partner and have kids if you want. Easy.

Also, if you tell yourself it can’t be done, it won’t get done.

Metalcat

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2019, 06:31:54 AM »
Don't worry about kids at this point. Worry about taking care of yourself. It's the only responsible thing to do.

Cassie

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2019, 12:17:31 PM »
The people that I know that chose to not have kids are not sorry. They are not lonely in their senior years.

ixtap

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2019, 12:26:31 PM »
The people that I know that chose to not have kids are not sorry. They are not lonely in their senior years.

As far as I can tell, this is a myth that people who want kids tell themselves about people who make different choices.

Kris

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2019, 12:43:28 PM »
The people that I know that chose to not have kids are not sorry. They are not lonely in their senior years.

As far as I can tell, this is a myth that people who want kids tell themselves about people who make different choices.

Wow. I chose not to have kids. I'm not sorry. Why would you say this is a myth? Are you saying I'm lying to myself?

Cassie

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2019, 12:44:43 PM »
Kris, she’s agreeing with you.

Kris

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2019, 12:46:56 PM »
Kris, she’s agreeing with you.

Huh. I guess the box quotes threw me off. Her saying "this" looked to me like a reference to the statement of the person she was quoting.

Cassie

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2019, 12:49:39 PM »
Now I see why you interpreted it that way.  I have known people that were sorry they had kids.

Kris

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2019, 12:51:34 PM »
Now I see why you interpreted it that way.  I have known people that were sorry they had kids.

Yeah, I have, too. I feel really sorry for them. Especially because there's such a huge societal taboo about ever admitting something like that. It must be incredibly isolating to feel that way. (And of course, you would never, ever want to say that to or around your kids. But it can't be healthy to feel like you can never say it to anyone.)

ixtap

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2019, 01:01:23 PM »
Kris, she’s agreeing with you.

Huh. I guess the box quotes threw me off. Her saying "this" looked to me like a reference to the statement of the person she was quoting.

Sorry for the confusion. Yes, I meant that "you will regret not having kids" seems like a myth. At least, when it comes to people who make a choice, rather than ending up without kids due to bad relationships or medical reasons.

Metalcat

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2019, 01:11:31 PM »
Kris, she’s agreeing with you.

Huh. I guess the box quotes threw me off. Her saying "this" looked to me like a reference to the statement of the person she was quoting.

Sorry for the confusion. Yes, I meant that "you will regret not having kids" seems like a myth. At least, when it comes to people who make a choice, rather than ending up without kids due to bad relationships or medical reasons.

It really is a myth.
The pressure in society to have kids is so intense that you have to be pretty sure of yourself to know that you don't want them.

The ones who change their minds tend to go ahead and have kids.

RedmondStash

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2019, 02:14:57 PM »
I've never really understood the whole "Have kids so you won't be lonely in your dotage" philosophy. We don't live in a culture where grandparents and great-grandparents often live with adult children, and adult children often have their own lives, and often live far from their own parents. Plus, there's no guarantee that you & your kids will get along when they become adults. And adult children can take advantage of aging parents just as much as anyone else can; they don't necessarily have their parents' best interests at heart. Plenty of threads on this forum show that.

So basically, kids or no kids, you're going to have to build a life for yourself as you get older, and you may or may not have younger people to rely on for help.

No kids here. No regrets. Honestly, I'm relieved that spouse & I made this decision. I don't have the temperament for parenthood, and I wouldn't want to subject a child to less than stellar parenting.

MandalayPA

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2019, 02:27:54 PM »
Also no kids, zero regrets.  I would have been an absolutely terrible mother, and there are enough people on this planet that have been damaged by their parents for me not to want to add to their number.

GuitarStv

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2019, 02:36:53 PM »



The people that I know that chose to not have kids are not sorry. They are not lonely in their senior years.

As far as I can tell, this is a myth that people who want kids tell themselves about people who make different choices.

Jesus Christ guys . . . you're already living in the promised land!

The land of being able to get sleep through the night without being woken up by "Daddy, I threw up all over EVERYTHING", no wiping anyone else's ass (unless you're into that, who am I to judge), no preparing delicious meal after delicious meal to have it rejected by someone who refuses to taste it . . . because it's obviously yucky, no needing to sit through endless boring "productions" from school, no daily (hourly?) pretending that your kid's eight billionth drawing of a truck is in fact a truly special and wonderful drawing that has floored you with it's level of detail, no hours upon hours of "enrichment" and special instruction to try and make your kid marginally above average at school . . .

Just give us this myth.  As parents we need something to cling to.  It's not that much to ask for, is it?

Omy

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2019, 02:39:26 PM »
I'm another in the "no kids, no regrets" camp. My siblings both have kids (and no regrets) and substantially less in net worth.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2019, 06:20:24 PM by Omy »

Kris

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2019, 02:58:48 PM »



The people that I know that chose to not have kids are not sorry. They are not lonely in their senior years.

As far as I can tell, this is a myth that people who want kids tell themselves about people who make different choices.

Jesus Christ guys . . . you're already living in the promised land!

The land of being able to get sleep through the night without being woken up by "Daddy, I threw up all over EVERYTHING", no wiping anyone else's ass (unless you're into that, who am I to judge), no preparing delicious meal after delicious meal to have it rejected by someone who refuses to taste it . . . because it's obviously yucky, no needing to sit through endless boring "productions" from school, no daily (hourly?) pretending that your kid's eight billionth drawing of a truck is in fact a truly special and wonderful drawing that has floored you with it's level of detail, no hours upon hours of "enrichment" and special instruction to try and make your kid marginally above average at school . . .

Just give us this myth.  As parents we need something to cling to.  It's not that much to ask for, is it?

Sorry, man.

Look, as a gesture of goodwill, I’ll share actual footage of me crying about my lack of children.

https://tenor.com/Ilv8.gif

BTDretire

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2019, 03:36:33 PM »
I am a male in my mid 20's.
I cannot even support myself and I need financial support from my parents.
If I will have children I will never be able to achieve FIRE.

 If you can't support yourself, STOP!
Don't even think about having kids.
You need to start thinking about how to earn enough money
to support yourself and be able to save.
The good part, you are young, you don't have any kids and no wife,
you can go and do whatever it takes to make money.

 I hope you are using the money you are earning frugally, meaning, I hope you are saving some.
Maybe you need a second job to up your income, maybe you need to develop a skill to earn more.
 I've seen some success stories from immersive programming schools, IF that is where your mind
could work well. You have time, but you do need to make a plan and then forge ahead with tenacity.
 You will need to work many years, you might as well find a skill that pays you handsomely to do it.
You can make a choice to earn $25k of make yourself valuable to someone an earn $75k or more.

MMM has a couple of blogs you might want to read.
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/07/25/50-jobs-over-50000-without-a-degree-part-1/

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/08/05/50-jobs-over-50000-without-a-degree-part-2/

Good luck, but, doing something to improve yourself is 95% of the luck.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 07:04:58 PM by BTDretire »

FireAnt

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2019, 04:46:27 PM »
Kris, she’s agreeing with you.

Huh. I guess the box quotes threw me off. Her saying "this" looked to me like a reference to the statement of the person she was quoting.

Sorry for the confusion. Yes, I meant that "you will regret not having kids" seems like a myth. At least, when it comes to people who make a choice, rather than ending up without kids due to bad relationships or medical reasons.

It really is a myth.
The pressure in society to have kids is so intense that you have to be pretty sure of yourself to know that you don't want them.

The ones who change their minds tend to go ahead and have kids.

Yes, I struggle with the societal pressure all the time. For people who don't know me, I think it's rude to ask why I don't have kids (What if I couldn't have children?) For some friends and family, they don't understand because having children is the most wonderful thing in the world and why wouldn't you want the most wonderful rewarding thing in the world?!?!?! Also, I am confident that I don't want children, but at times I feel isolated in certain groups/situations. I went to a ChooseFI meet up last week and all the women were tending to their children and I hung out with the men and I felt very out of place. I went to a baby shower for a childhood friend yesterday and we were talking about how we've all grown up and one mentioned how we need to bring our children together to meet for a play date. Guess I won't be going to that :) I think I'm probably overly sensitive about it right now due to these recent experiences.

OtherJen

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2019, 05:43:38 PM »
Kris, she’s agreeing with you.

Huh. I guess the box quotes threw me off. Her saying "this" looked to me like a reference to the statement of the person she was quoting.

Sorry for the confusion. Yes, I meant that "you will regret not having kids" seems like a myth. At least, when it comes to people who make a choice, rather than ending up without kids due to bad relationships or medical reasons.

It really is a myth.
The pressure in society to have kids is so intense that you have to be pretty sure of yourself to know that you don't want them.

The ones who change their minds tend to go ahead and have kids.

Yes, I struggle with the societal pressure all the time. For people who don't know me, I think it's rude to ask why I don't have kids (What if I couldn't have children?) For some friends and family, they don't understand because having children is the most wonderful thing in the world and why wouldn't you want the most wonderful rewarding thing in the world?!?!?! Also, I am confident that I don't want children, but at times I feel isolated in certain groups/situations. I went to a ChooseFI meet up last week and all the women were tending to their children and I hung out with the men and I felt very out of place. I went to a baby shower for a childhood friend yesterday and we were talking about how we've all grown up and one mentioned how we need to bring our children together to meet for a play date. Guess I won't be going to that :) I think I'm probably overly sensitive about it right now due to these recent experiences.

The years between 25 and 45 are a little rough that way. I'm 41 and grateful on a daily basis that we don't have kids, but so many of my peers do, and EVERYthing in their lives revolves around kids now. I spend a lot of my free time doing volunteer work with older women because their kids are grown. I've gotten used to being the youngest in the room by 20 years.

CindyBS

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2019, 06:04:40 PM »
By that logic, spending money on anything is antithesis to FIRE.  Or not optimizing every second to maximize one's income.  Yes, kids cost money.  Yes, they can delay FIRE.  But so do other things people spend money on - houses, vacations, cars, etc. 

I am interested in FIRE.  I am also a parent.  I don't see these two things in conflict.


However, if I had to pick one - it would have to be kids.  They have brought me more joy than I could ever imagine.  My kids' issues have delayed my FIRE by 10 years,  I still have zero regret.


ericrugiero

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2019, 06:06:30 PM »
Having kids is a very personal decision. When I was younger I would have been very satisfied with no kids. My wife has always wanted to have kids and be a stay at home mom. We had kids primarily because she wanted them. If we hadn’t had kids i’m confident I would not have regretted it.

That said, I love my kids and love being a parent. I don’t regret having them at all and if I could go back we might actually have one more. They bring a ton of satisfaction and joy to my life. There are tons of sacrifices in having kids and I don’t regret any of them. I do regret that they will be mostly grown before I am FI.

FireAnt

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2019, 06:15:53 PM »
Kris, she’s agreeing with you.

Huh. I guess the box quotes threw me off. Her saying "this" looked to me like a reference to the statement of the person she was quoting.

Sorry for the confusion. Yes, I meant that "you will regret not having kids" seems like a myth. At least, when it comes to people who make a choice, rather than ending up without kids due to bad relationships or medical reasons.

It really is a myth.
The pressure in society to have kids is so intense that you have to be pretty sure of yourself to know that you don't want them.

The ones who change their minds tend to go ahead and have kids.

Yes, I struggle with the societal pressure all the time. For people who don't know me, I think it's rude to ask why I don't have kids (What if I couldn't have children?) For some friends and family, they don't understand because having children is the most wonderful thing in the world and why wouldn't you want the most wonderful rewarding thing in the world?!?!?! Also, I am confident that I don't want children, but at times I feel isolated in certain groups/situations. I went to a ChooseFI meet up last week and all the women were tending to their children and I hung out with the men and I felt very out of place. I went to a baby shower for a childhood friend yesterday and we were talking about how we've all grown up and one mentioned how we need to bring our children together to meet for a play date. Guess I won't be going to that :) I think I'm probably overly sensitive about it right now due to these recent experiences.

The years between 25 and 45 are a little rough that way. I'm 41 and grateful on a daily basis that we don't have kids, but so many of my peers do, and EVERYthing in their lives revolves around kids now. I spend a lot of my free time doing volunteer work with older women because their kids are grown. I've gotten used to being the youngest in the room by 20 years.

Bah- another 10 years to go then! At least I have a couple friends that don't have kids; some that choose not to and some due to infertility. Also- yay for being a fellow Michigander!

ixtap

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2019, 06:42:37 PM »
Kris, she’s agreeing with you.

Huh. I guess the box quotes threw me off. Her saying "this" looked to me like a reference to the statement of the person she was quoting.

Sorry for the confusion. Yes, I meant that "you will regret not having kids" seems like a myth. At least, when it comes to people who make a choice, rather than ending up without kids due to bad relationships or medical reasons.

It really is a myth.
The pressure in society to have kids is so intense that you have to be pretty sure of yourself to know that you don't want them.

The ones who change their minds tend to go ahead and have kids.

Yes, I struggle with the societal pressure all the time. For people who don't know me, I think it's rude to ask why I don't have kids (What if I couldn't have children?) For some friends and family, they don't understand because having children is the most wonderful thing in the world and why wouldn't you want the most wonderful rewarding thing in the world?!?!?! Also, I am confident that I don't want children, but at times I feel isolated in certain groups/situations. I went to a ChooseFI meet up last week and all the women were tending to their children and I hung out with the men and I felt very out of place. I went to a baby shower for a childhood friend yesterday and we were talking about how we've all grown up and one mentioned how we need to bring our children together to meet for a play date. Guess I won't be going to that :) I think I'm probably overly sensitive about it right now due to these recent experiences.

The years between 25 and 45 are a little rough that way. I'm 41 and grateful on a daily basis that we don't have kids, but so many of my peers do, and EVERYthing in their lives revolves around kids now. I spend a lot of my free time doing volunteer work with older women because their kids are grown. I've gotten used to being the youngest in the room by 20 years.

Bah- another 10 years to go then! At least I have a couple friends that don't have kids; some that choose not to and some due to infertility. Also- yay for being a fellow Michigander!

-You might still have kids.
-I'm almost 50!
-Janet Jackson had kids in her 50s.
-That's her problem.

And yes, what if I had desperately wanted kids at some point in my life and couldn't? I have a friend whose child was stillborn, what if someone asks her when she plans on having kids 10 years from now?!?!

Bateaux

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2019, 08:34:13 PM »
There are too many awesome things to do with your youth these days besides having kids.  Spend your first 20 adult years establishing yourself.  Get educated, get rich and explore the planet.  When you're 40 if you still feel the need for kids modern medicine can help that happen.  Kids will always need adoption.   

afox

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2019, 10:21:38 PM »
I am a male in my mid 20's.
I cannot even support myself and I need financial support from my parents.
If I will have children I will never be able to achieve FIRE.

as you get older your employer will expect you to have kids and thus will pay you more so that you can afford them, at that point you can choose to have them or not. for now just focus on doing whatever is necessary to make as much money as possible while working as little as possible. change careers, move, go back to school, look for new jobs, etc.

Metalcat

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2019, 05:33:34 AM »
Kris, she’s agreeing with you.

Huh. I guess the box quotes threw me off. Her saying "this" looked to me like a reference to the statement of the person she was quoting.

Sorry for the confusion. Yes, I meant that "you will regret not having kids" seems like a myth. At least, when it comes to people who make a choice, rather than ending up without kids due to bad relationships or medical reasons.

It really is a myth.
The pressure in society to have kids is so intense that you have to be pretty sure of yourself to know that you don't want them.

The ones who change their minds tend to go ahead and have kids.

Yes, I struggle with the societal pressure all the time. For people who don't know me, I think it's rude to ask why I don't have kids (What if I couldn't have children?) For some friends and family, they don't understand because having children is the most wonderful thing in the world and why wouldn't you want the most wonderful rewarding thing in the world?!?!?! Also, I am confident that I don't want children, but at times I feel isolated in certain groups/situations. I went to a ChooseFI meet up last week and all the women were tending to their children and I hung out with the men and I felt very out of place. I went to a baby shower for a childhood friend yesterday and we were talking about how we've all grown up and one mentioned how we need to bring our children together to meet for a play date. Guess I won't be going to that :) I think I'm probably overly sensitive about it right now due to these recent experiences.

Yeah...it's kind of on you to get comfortable with other people having kids and focusing on them. It's pretty normal.

That would be like you FIREing in your 30s and then feeling uncomfortable and out of place because everyone else around you has jobs.

I hang out with parents, participate in playdates, and listen to a lot of talk about kids. They'll only exclude you because they assume you will be bored by it, but my parent friends love when I'm willing to join for the play dates, because play dates are really just adults hanging out while their kids play.

Just because you don't have kids doesn't mean that you can't connect with moms. I talk a lot with moms and they tend to really enjoy it because it's judgement free and I give them space to complain.

Talking to moms and having virtually nothing in common with them is just as interesting as talking to someone who lives in the Arctic and has a completely different lifestyle.

Take an interest and it will stop being awkward. Trust me, the tales of motherhood are vast and fascinating once the moms trust that you aren't judging them.

brute

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #42 on: May 13, 2019, 06:12:41 AM »



The people that I know that chose to not have kids are not sorry. They are not lonely in their senior years.

As far as I can tell, this is a myth that people who want kids tell themselves about people who make different choices.

Jesus Christ guys . . . you're already living in the promised land!

The land of being able to get sleep through the night without being woken up by "Daddy, I threw up all over EVERYTHING", no wiping anyone else's ass (unless you're into that, who am I to judge), no preparing delicious meal after delicious meal to have it rejected by someone who refuses to taste it . . . because it's obviously yucky, no needing to sit through endless boring "productions" from school, no daily (hourly?) pretending that your kid's eight billionth drawing of a truck is in fact a truly special and wonderful drawing that has floored you with it's level of detail, no hours upon hours of "enrichment" and special instruction to try and make your kid marginally above average at school . . .

Just give us this myth.  As parents we need something to cling to.  It's not that much to ask for, is it?

Sorry, man.

Look, as a gesture of goodwill, I’ll share actual footage of me crying about my lack of children.

https://tenor.com/Ilv8.gif

Holy good lord you're one of my favorite people.


thd7t

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #43 on: May 13, 2019, 09:16:25 AM »
Wow, based on this thread, I feel like we need a "What's the Worst Thing I read on MMM today" thread.  It's mostly the worst.

OP you are currently a kid.  Your parents support you, so you shouldn't be thinking about FIRE or having kids.

In terms of the rest, some people have kids, some dont.  Some wan't kids and don't have them, some don't want kids and do have them.  Bummer for those people.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2019, 09:22:42 AM »
I don't know if I've ever clicked on a thread with such a click-baity thread title and such a lazy, thoughtless original post. I can't believe this got to 40+ posts.

Come to think of it, this is OP's bread and butter.

- "I feel Like a Loser...." https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/i-feel-like-a-loser/msg2371233/#msg2371233

- "The only thing I enjoy in life is sleeping" https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/the-only-thing-i-enjoy-doing-in-life-is-sleeping/msg2370688/

- "2 Things that bother me about FIRE" https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/2-things-that-bother-me-about-fire/msg2370317/

- "Another issue I forgot to mention about FIRE" https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/another-issue-i-forgot-to-mention-about-fire/msg2370403

OP -- stop posting click-bait threads and start reading. Better yet, start looking internally to improve your future.

Enigma

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #45 on: May 13, 2019, 09:25:11 AM »
I think having children puts fire under an individual's feet.  Having a girlfriend or wife is the first step in wanting to move out of your parent's house.  I mean mom shouldnt be washing your sheets.  This is the first step in a boy becoming a man.  Once he has kids...  Well that could easily be the second phase has he pushes to make more income to cover more wants.

Those that settle to live with their parents and not have kids, well I do not see them struggling to make a difference around them or a real drive to increase their own net worth and retirement.

Strive to make more and be more until you have all your needs met, then your wants, then your retirement.

FireAnt

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #46 on: May 13, 2019, 09:44:29 AM »
Kris, she’s agreeing with you.

Huh. I guess the box quotes threw me off. Her saying "this" looked to me like a reference to the statement of the person she was quoting.

Sorry for the confusion. Yes, I meant that "you will regret not having kids" seems like a myth. At least, when it comes to people who make a choice, rather than ending up without kids due to bad relationships or medical reasons.

It really is a myth.
The pressure in society to have kids is so intense that you have to be pretty sure of yourself to know that you don't want them.

The ones who change their minds tend to go ahead and have kids.

Yes, I struggle with the societal pressure all the time. For people who don't know me, I think it's rude to ask why I don't have kids (What if I couldn't have children?) For some friends and family, they don't understand because having children is the most wonderful thing in the world and why wouldn't you want the most wonderful rewarding thing in the world?!?!?! Also, I am confident that I don't want children, but at times I feel isolated in certain groups/situations. I went to a ChooseFI meet up last week and all the women were tending to their children and I hung out with the men and I felt very out of place. I went to a baby shower for a childhood friend yesterday and we were talking about how we've all grown up and one mentioned how we need to bring our children together to meet for a play date. Guess I won't be going to that :) I think I'm probably overly sensitive about it right now due to these recent experiences.

Yeah...it's kind of on you to get comfortable with other people having kids and focusing on them. It's pretty normal.

That would be like you FIREing in your 30s and then feeling uncomfortable and out of place because everyone else around you has jobs.

I hang out with parents, participate in playdates, and listen to a lot of talk about kids. They'll only exclude you because they assume you will be bored by it, but my parent friends love when I'm willing to join for the play dates, because play dates are really just adults hanging out while their kids play.

Just because you don't have kids doesn't mean that you can't connect with moms. I talk a lot with moms and they tend to really enjoy it because it's judgement free and I give them space to complain.

Talking to moms and having virtually nothing in common with them is just as interesting as talking to someone who lives in the Arctic and has a completely different lifestyle.

Take an interest and it will stop being awkward. Trust me, the tales of motherhood are vast and fascinating once the moms trust that you aren't judging them.

I also have friends that have kids and it's fine. I actually love kids and work with kids for a living. But you can't deny that when your friends have kids, the relationship does change. They can't do the same things as before (like "HEY let's go do XYZ tonight" or "I got free tickets to this game can you come?"). There are some friends with kids who I still am close with, but I would say that the vast majority of them grow distant of varying degrees. I don't think it's due to judgement but different priorities and obligations. Usually I'm okay with it, but like I said, due to those two recent experiences I felt more sensitive to it.

mm1970

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #47 on: May 13, 2019, 10:51:19 AM »
No kids here. ZERO regrets. In addition to saving a shite ton of money, we have fabulous amounts of free time. We are off to France for three weeks--no screaming babies, toddlers, teenagers, trips to Di$ney--just endless freedom!

Tomorrow is Sunday, sleeping in until 11 again. ;) (Have to get up at 9-10 during the week)
Except you may have to sit next to my teenager or annoying child on the plane...

OtherJen

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #48 on: May 13, 2019, 12:43:29 PM »
I think having children puts fire under an individual's feet.  Having a girlfriend or wife is the first step in wanting to move out of your parent's house.  I mean mom shouldnt be washing your sheets.  This is the first step in a boy becoming a man.  Once he has kids...  Well that could easily be the second phase has he pushes to make more income to cover more wants.

Those that settle to live with their parents and not have kids, well I do not see them struggling to make a difference around them or a real drive to increase their own net worth and retirement.

Strive to make more and be more until you have all your needs met, then your wants, then your retirement.

There's a rather broad spectrum between "living at home with parents forever" and "having kids."

Otherwise, yes. Striving for one's own adulthood and independence is a good thing.

partgypsy

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Re: Isn't having children the antithesis to being FIRE?
« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2019, 01:32:35 PM »
Living and spending unconsciously is the antithesis to being FIRE, not the presence and absence of children. Which is readily seen when looking at people the world over. It is only in US and select countries is the belief that having children= spending boatloads of money.

It definitely changes your life, and limits your options in a number of ways. Just like many decisions in life, such as what you do for a living, where you live, whether you have a pet, whether you take care of your parents etc etc.

But yeah, if you need financial assistance from your parents, obviously, don't have kids. That's about being an adult, not FIRE. 
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 01:35:15 PM by partgypsy »