Author Topic: Is this water bill NUTS??  (Read 5422 times)

couponvan

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Re: Is this water bill NUTS??
« Reply #50 on: November 06, 2020, 07:37:12 AM »
Our FIRE house is in a lake community in IL.  UNLIMITED water is included in your dues. UNLIMITED.  It blows my mind.  Annual dues for all the lake amenities including tennis courts, volleyball courts, pool, beach, disc golf, mini golf, and a clubhouse run $400/year.  Since most people only vacation there, the full timers get the benefit of the part timers.  The FIRE house is where I happily take jacuzzi tubs. LOL. My 1.5 acres of land there could grow a lot of vegetables when we retire.

Sanitary Stache

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Re: Is this water bill NUTS??
« Reply #51 on: November 06, 2020, 08:08:43 AM »
@couponvan it is often Home owner association's at vacation locations with the absolute worst drinking water and waste water infrastructure.  It is very likely that the drinking water infrastructure at your FIRE house is operating beyond it's expected lifespan and was poorly maintained to boot.  $400/year is way to low just for drinking water, let alone maintenance of the other amenities.

Many water system's provide fire protection as well as the safest drinking water ever distributed to people over hundreds of square miles.  You can think of fixed costs as the price to get any of this incredible resource delivered to your home AND safe to drink.

Almost all of the drinking water costs listed here are way too low to be sustainable, in the vast majority of situations.  There are, of course, economies of scale to take into consideration, but generally drinking water fees do not cover all of the cost of providing drinking water to customers - these are made up through subsidizes or by passing costs to future generations with bonds.  In VT, our smallest, most vulnerable communities charge their customers over $1,000/year for drinking water.  These systems don't have individual meters and every connection is charged a flat fee.  If a water system finds itself in this situation, the whole Town is living on borrowed time.  EPA and USDA can't throw money at these places fast enough to keep people living there.

My, supposedly responsibly maintained water system, charges my family of 6 less than $75/month for drinking water and wastewater, this amount is enough for the Town to cover the 25% of infrastructure improvement costs USDA funding asks us to pay - my drinking water is subsidized to the tune of 75% of capital costs.  I never fail to exclaim to my children the extreme luxury of pressurized water coming from our water reservoir, through house sized steel filters filled with coal and gravel, treated with life saving chemicals so we don't die from diarrhea, pushed through hundreds of miles of metal pipe buried 100 years ago, stored in giant glass and steel towers, coming up our road into our basement and running to each of our taps, pouring out for us to enjoy.

As others have mentioned, individual water systems and septic systems are certainly not less expensive.  Some people can pretend their septic system doesn't cost money because they might have enough property to ignore the untreated human waste just beneath the ground surface, intermingling with the ground water, but a new modern septic system doesn't cost less than $5,000 under any circumstance and in many cases runs between $20,000-$50,000 with the perverse reality that the more expensive systems will fail soonest and fail spectacularly with human feces pooling in your lawn.  While drinking water wells and springs are rarely monitored for contaminants, run dry for nothing, and cost thousands of dollars to replace. 


couponvan

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Re: Is this water bill NUTS??
« Reply #52 on: November 06, 2020, 09:13:51 AM »
@couponvan it is often Home owner association's at vacation locations with the absolute worst drinking water and waste water infrastructure.  It is very likely that the drinking water infrastructure at your FIRE house is operating beyond it's expected lifespan and was poorly maintained to boot.  $400/year is way to low just for drinking water, let alone maintenance of the other amenities.

Many water system's provide fire protection as well as the safest drinking water ever distributed to people over hundreds of square miles.  You can think of fixed costs as the price to get any of this incredible resource delivered to your home AND safe to drink.

Almost all of the drinking water costs listed here are way too low to be sustainable, in the vast majority of situations.  There are, of course, economies of scale to take into consideration, but generally drinking water fees do not cover all of the cost of providing drinking water to customers - these are made up through subsidizes or by passing costs to future generations with bonds.  In VT, our smallest, most vulnerable communities charge their customers over $1,000/year for drinking water.  These systems don't have individual meters and every connection is charged a flat fee.  If a water system finds itself in this situation, the whole Town is living on borrowed time.  EPA and USDA can't throw money at these places fast enough to keep people living there.

My, supposedly responsibly maintained water system, charges my family of 6 less than $75/month for drinking water and wastewater, this amount is enough for the Town to cover the 25% of infrastructure improvement costs USDA funding asks us to pay - my drinking water is subsidized to the tune of 75% of capital costs.  I never fail to exclaim to my children the extreme luxury of pressurized water coming from our water reservoir, through house sized steel filters filled with coal and gravel, treated with life saving chemicals so we don't die from diarrhea, pushed through hundreds of miles of metal pipe buried 100 years ago, stored in giant glass and steel towers, coming up our road into our basement and running to each of our taps, pouring out for us to enjoy.

As others have mentioned, individual water systems and septic systems are certainly not less expensive.  Some people can pretend their septic system doesn't cost money because they might have enough property to ignore the untreated human waste just beneath the ground surface, intermingling with the ground water, but a new modern septic system doesn't cost less than $5,000 under any circumstance and in many cases runs between $20,000-$50,000 with the perverse reality that the more expensive systems will fail soonest and fail spectacularly with human feces pooling in your lawn.  While drinking water wells and springs are rarely monitored for contaminants, run dry for nothing, and cost thousands of dollars to replace.
Only about 20-25% of the homes are full timers in our area.  The rest is seasonal weekend use, and/or unbuilt lots. Many of the unbuilt lots are owned by people in the nearby towns who want access to the lake amenities for $400/year and have no intention of building anything. The water system was recently rebuilt in 2012, and there is a dam at the lake as well.  It gets great marks on annual testing for water quality. I still drink only bottled water/filtered water in the house.  There is no community sewer system. Everyone has their own septic, so that is a cost each owner has to bear. Some systems require inspection every 6 months, ours requires inspection every 2 years. This is required by the HOA and you are fined if you do not comply. Pumping of septic for us has been every 4-5 years at a cost of $200 or so.  Our septic line from the house is going to need to be replaced at some point due to root infiltration in one line.  No human feces pooling in the lawn though!

Sanitary Stache

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Re: Is this water bill NUTS??
« Reply #53 on: November 06, 2020, 02:30:55 PM »
The water system was recently rebuilt in 2012, and there is a dam at the lake as well.  It gets great marks on annual testing for water quality. I still drink only bottled water/filtered water in the house. 

This sounds like not the worst case scenario, or even a typical scenario in my state.  I would recommend pushing for dedicated water fee allocations and a sinking fund for the water system.  If you are drinking lake water, and everyone has a septic system, you don't want any interruptions in disinfection.  And if you want to drink the water, regular expensive maintenance and operation expenses should be taken care of.  There is such a wide gamut of surface water treatment technologies, the lifespan could be 5 years to 30 years before major capital/maintenance expenses are needed.

jpdx

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Re: Is this water bill NUTS??
« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2020, 09:57:45 PM »
Every few months I receive an email from my city showing my water usage compared to the average household. Ours averages 80 gallons per day, which according to the email, is half what the average 3-person household uses. We shower every other day, and flush every other pee, just to give a frame of reference of where you can reduce your usage if you conserve in those areas.

When you think about it, <$100/month is a bargain to pay for a constant supply life-giving fresh water, a sewer system to take your shit far away and treat it, stormwater management to prevent flooding throughout the city, and a hauler to take your garbage and beer bottles away each week.

guitar_stitch

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Re: Is this water bill NUTS??
« Reply #55 on: November 10, 2020, 08:47:45 AM »
That's slightly cheaper than the rate we have here in Northeast Florida.  Your usage is a mite high, but not unreasonably if you use any of that water for irrigation.  I'm curious as to how your potable is 12 CCF, but your sewage is 8.

Tigerpine

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Re: Is this water bill NUTS??
« Reply #56 on: November 15, 2020, 12:15:46 PM »
Our water bill last month (for water and sewer) was $16.41. 

We don't get a separate bill for trash.  This is in MA.

How so low in Massachusetts? that's what you would pay in Mexico.
I dunno.  We try to keep our water usage low, but other than that, I have no idea.  The highest water/sewer bill we've had for 2020 was $17.57.