Author Topic: Is job hopping mandatory?  (Read 17283 times)

druth

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 333
  • Location: 'sota
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #50 on: August 11, 2016, 01:17:12 PM »
I'm supposedly a 'top performer' but I haven't been promoted in 6 years.  Hmm.  What did my top performer raise get me this year?  3.5%.  Hoo doggies!  Average folks got 2%  Below average, 0%.

Oh yeah, I got one of those this year also.  My boss told me, literally, that I should be "very proud," of my 3.3% raise.  OH BOY.  Same as you were saying, average is 2%.  Similarly my bonus was 5.6% instead of 5%.  Dang, $330?!  That's sure going to make me okay with not getting a promotion! Oh, wait...

Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3627
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #51 on: August 11, 2016, 01:27:28 PM »
I'm supposedly a 'top performer' but I haven't been promoted in 6 years.  Hmm.  What did my top performer raise get me this year?  3.5%.  Hoo doggies!  Average folks got 2%  Below average, 0%.

Oh yeah, I got one of those this year also.  My boss told me, literally, that I should be "very proud," of my 3.3% raise.  OH BOY.  Same as you were saying, average is 2%.  Similarly my bonus was 5.6% instead of 5%.  Dang, $330?!  That's sure going to make me okay with not getting a promotion! Oh, wait...

I was at a dinner one night with an older gentleman, relatively senior business guy, and he and I were talking about "kids these days" (since I'm a millennial).  He says to me "I can't even get these kids to go in and give me a good paragraph or two in the performance review, they write like one line!  Don't they know it affects their salary?  They're in such a hurry to just go home!"  I said to him, well, how does it affect their salary?  He says "It is the difference between a good raise and a bad one!"  Asking about the spread between good and bad "Good raises are at least .5% more than bad one, maybe even 1% more!"  I pointed out that for someone making $50k a year, that's a difference of $250/500, and yeah, no wonder they don't give a shit.

dividendman

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1413
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #52 on: August 11, 2016, 02:05:49 PM »
Performance reviews are the biggest nonsense work in any company.

Not only what Chris22 has said above,  in that a "good" rating gives only a bit more than "average" but the review itself has no bearing on it but also: The boss has made up their mind before the performance review/feedback and then justifies whatever they do after the fact in the "review". An easy way to prove this is to ask when the ratings are in compared to when people are asked to do evaluations.

Self reviews are totally useless in that they have no bearing on the review outcome whatsoever, in my experience.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 19013
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #53 on: August 12, 2016, 06:35:33 AM »
Performance reviews are the biggest nonsense work in any company.

They are a tremendous waste of time, but I'd argue that there is a bigger one:

Employee training plans

Keeping our employees trained in new technologies and up to date on best programming practices is very important to my employer.  Is says so right in our 'core values'.  So, every year we spend about 8 - 10 hours developing training plans for each employee so that a path for learning new materials and developing new skills is available for the year.

In the past five years I've spent 40 - 50 hrs of time developing an employee training plan with my supervisor.  I've been granted 0 hours of training during those five years for various reasons.  :S

Aelias

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 427
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #54 on: August 12, 2016, 07:46:19 AM »

I was at a dinner one night with an older gentleman, relatively senior business guy, and he and I were talking about "kids these days" (since I'm a millennial).  He says to me "I can't even get these kids to go in and give me a good paragraph or two in the performance review, they write like one line!  Don't they know it affects their salary?  They're in such a hurry to just go home!"  I said to him, well, how does it affect their salary?  He says "It is the difference between a good raise and a bad one!"  Asking about the spread between good and bad "Good raises are at least .5% more than bad one, maybe even 1% more!"  I pointed out that for someone making $50k a year, that's a difference of $250/500, and yeah, no wonder they don't give a shit.

So much this.  Why do employers have such a hard time understanding incentives?

My company went through a big rebranding effort this year, and made a point of emphasizing that they want to be a "destination" for the top talent in the industry.  And, yet they pay below market comp.  Let's see--you want top talent, but you want to pay them like they're middling-at-best talent.  Are you familiar with the old robot saying, "Does not compute"? 

It's possible that the pay is better for those at the top--I have no information on that.  But I've seen MANY folks rise to the middle and then leave for other opportunities.  Bottom line--their stated goals do not match up with their actions.  Either retaining top talent is not actually a goal, or they think employees are too stupid/lazy/risk averse to find a better opportunity.  Either way, this does not say good things about the company. 

Spitfire

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 300
  • Location: Weston, FL
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #55 on: August 12, 2016, 08:23:23 AM »
Job hopping is usually the fastest way to more money, yes. There are some companies that have a lot of upward mobility and reward high performers, but that seems to be the exception. I do have a couple of friends back in MA that have been with their company for a long time and have gotten many good raises and promotions. I suppose it is possible that they could have gotten even more by jumping around.

It's unfortunate that companies will pay more to bring someone in than to just promote their own people, but this seems to be the case most of the time. For a hard worker, hopping usually works out for the best. Just be aware of 401k match vesting or stock, etc. when you decide if the next job is worth a jump. It might be worth sticking around for an extra year in some cases.   

I did job hop once, but it was because I hated my job and the hours. I've been at my current employer for 7 years. I'm basically Peter Gibbons. I probably do about 8 hours of actual work a week, even though I am sitting here for 40.

cerat0n1a

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2265
  • Location: England
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #56 on: August 12, 2016, 09:11:25 AM »
I work for a company that has "golden handcuffs" for all employees. Essentially we get paid about the industry average wage but on top of that an additional, significant part of our overall compensation package each year is paid out in the 4 following years, if you're still there. So in 2016, I collected a quarter of that money from 2012 plus a quarter from 2013, 2014 & 2015. Not many people leave voluntarily. The company has gone from being a privately held start-up with a few dozen employees to being worth ~ $30 billion, mostly by organic growth rather than acquisition, in less than 20 years. So I think that's been a succesful policy.

NoStacheOhio

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2136
  • Location: Cleveland
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #57 on: August 12, 2016, 10:01:56 AM »
Just had my mid-year performance review, and in trying to discuss avenues for possible increases/promotions, my boss kept going back to how good my raises were because of the percentage. Finally, I just said something along the lines of, "that's great, but when you're starting low, percentages matter less."

Slee_stack

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 876
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #58 on: August 12, 2016, 10:12:53 AM »
I'm supposedly a 'top performer' but I haven't been promoted in 6 years.  Hmm.  What did my top performer raise get me this year?  3.5%.  Hoo doggies!  Average folks got 2%  Below average, 0%.

Oh yeah, I got one of those this year also.  My boss told me, literally, that I should be "very proud," of my 3.3% raise.  OH BOY.  Same as you were saying, average is 2%.  Similarly my bonus was 5.6% instead of 5%.  Dang, $330?!  That's sure going to make me okay with not getting a promotion! Oh, wait...
I did get a bonus this year too. My boss made special note of how rare bonuses are here and how special I should feel for getting one.  (Indeed, I've only received them the last 3 years).

Total bonus?   2%....

You can't make this stuff more pathetic.

yuka

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 376
  • Location: East coast for now
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #59 on: August 12, 2016, 10:40:01 AM »

YUP.  Always remember--it makes sense to be loyal to PEOPLE, but not to COMPANIES.  Because loyalty is a human trait, and, in the overwhelming number of cases, companies will not be loyal to employees. Even good employees, even employees who have been around forever.  As soon as you're no longer an asset to them, you will be cut.  Everyone is replaceable. They won't think twice.


It actually seems to me like this is the biggest danger in not promoting good people. Sometimes they'll move to their new job, and then slowly migrate all the high-functioning members of their old team to the new place. At least, I've seen it a couple times.

RangerOne

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 714
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #60 on: August 12, 2016, 01:14:52 PM »
The biggest difference for the current generation is the lack of a pension. This was really the only long term reward for racking on decades with the same company without much advancement. Without pensions there is very little reason to stick it out for any length of time at one company if another offers a better package.

As others have mentioned some companies offer things like RSU's and other perks that usually have a vesting period, or offer signing bonus the are voided if you don't stick around for X amount of years.

Beyond that its a rat race to see who can offer you:
-The best work
-the most opportunity(this can include lateral moves, specilization and ladder climbing)
-the best coworkers and managers
-the best management style
-the most money/benefits

It is always good to at least explore other job opportunities periodically because it is really the only way you can gauge how well you are being treated on all of the above. Then at least you can decide if you are missing out on an opportunity or if you are truly happy where you are.

moof

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 678
  • Location: Beaver Town Orygun
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #61 on: August 12, 2016, 02:30:09 PM »
Yes.

Typical raises are 0-5% staying put (only a couple examples closer to 10% in 20 years).

Typical gains from a new job:
24%
5% (right after dot com bust)
14%
18%

If you have some FU money in the bank, consider sharing with your manager that you like the work, but are interviewing to find better pay.  Best case is they match, or get in a bidding war for you.  Worst case is they can you or don't match and you end up taking the new job anyway.

druth

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 333
  • Location: 'sota
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #62 on: August 12, 2016, 08:10:43 PM »
If you have some FU money in the bank, consider sharing with your manager that you like the work, but are interviewing to find better pay.  Best case is they match, or get in a bidding war for you.  Worst case is they can you or don't match and you end up taking the new job anyway.

I do have FU money, but I'm thinking I'll just straight up resign (not just over this) and take a couple months off while I find something new.  High demand job, and I have a couple side gigs, so I'm not too concerned.

moof

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 678
  • Location: Beaver Town Orygun
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #63 on: August 12, 2016, 08:18:59 PM »
If you are at that point, consider lining up the new gig and get a start date that gets you a month off.  You can explain that you want to show up refreshed and it won't be a big deal.  You can also have an open discussion with your current manager and make it clear you need more money or changes to work to be happy, threat of departure done right can knock down a lot of barriers.

steviesterno

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 278
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #64 on: August 14, 2016, 08:52:32 AM »
I'm at a company that is trying to be the best in the business. that's the mission.

But over the last few years we've gone from merit based raises to flat 3% no matter what to none. Christmas token gifts of like $100 to nothing. I just found out we're losing a week we used to be closed at christmas, and I don't think being compensated. Time off was one of the best perks, but we've lost 2 weeks vacation a year since I got there.

I do the most on my team, and have launched a bunch of new and amazing initiatives, and have been asked to speak internationally. I asked my boss about the possibility of a raise (since I was "promoted" a year ago) and he straight up told me he would but the company doesn't offer raises anymore.

So I'm currently getting the same incentives to stay as the worst people on the team. so why should I try any more? This is setting me up to start looking elsewhere, or at least stop going above and beyond in any capacity. if it's never going to amount to anything, why bother?

though this did change my desire for FU money eventually to lets not spend a nickel and save up to have it within a year.

druth

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 333
  • Location: 'sota
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #65 on: August 14, 2016, 02:06:15 PM »
I'm at a company that is trying to be the best in the business. that's the mission.

But over the last few years we've gone from merit based raises to flat 3% no matter what to none. Christmas token gifts of like $100 to nothing. I just found out we're losing a week we used to be closed at christmas, and I don't think being compensated. Time off was one of the best perks, but we've lost 2 weeks vacation a year since I got there.

I do the most on my team, and have launched a bunch of new and amazing initiatives, and have been asked to speak internationally. I asked my boss about the possibility of a raise (since I was "promoted" a year ago) and he straight up told me he would but the company doesn't offer raises anymore.

So I'm currently getting the same incentives to stay as the worst people on the team. so why should I try any more? This is setting me up to start looking elsewhere, or at least stop going above and beyond in any capacity. if it's never going to amount to anything, why bother?

though this did change my desire for FU money eventually to lets not spend a nickel and save up to have it within a year.

Losing the PTO would have been the breaking point for me.  I can deal with having less money, but not less time.  Sounds like you are a prime candidate to start looking elsewhere.

Goldy

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 284
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #66 on: August 14, 2016, 07:57:08 PM »
I don't think it is mandatory but greatly depends on your field.  I have been in this career for over 10 years (my only job) and have amassed 1.2m by age 32.

caracarn

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1770
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #67 on: August 15, 2016, 03:27:15 PM »
This is an intriguing topic but I would say all the responses only analyze this at the superficial first ten years of a career level.  Now granted this is an MMM forum where the entire "career" of someone who can do everything the "right" way and save a substantial portion of their income and FIRE in 9 years of less, so I get that.  However, at some point nothing will help you get an increase, job hopping or staying, because you've maxed out the real pay you can get for that skill set.  Talking in percentages is just misleading.  I once got a 33% raise staying at my current company.  Is it more impressive if that happened when I was already making $75K (as I was), or if I was making $30K?  I think everyone agrees that the former is more difficult because that percentage is many more real dollars to the company budget.  As a manager looking to hire people I have developers who are making $100K thinking they can ask for 20% more because it is not worth it for them to switch jobs for less, however for the skill set they have (about 5 years of experience) they are really maxed out at what any reasonable employer will pay them.  It does not compute that the reason they have been looking for this new job for a year and been unsuccessful is because they have hit the ceiling of the earning power at this point. 

As a manager I also will not go to HR to make the case from someone who has shown that they are simply going to bolt when they do not get a 10% raise.  Like it or not the reality is it is not sustainable to give 10-20% raises to internal employees when profit is not rising at that same pace.  If we did you'd all go from making 100% of your salary to making 0% when the company shut down due to mismanagement.  Not sure how that serves anyone.  I get the need to get paid what you think you are worth, and it seems all the posters feel they are not there yet, but this entire discussion hinges on the fact that at some point the gravy train of job hopping stops and you need to get that you are making a very good wage and be satisfied. 

My personal experience was that most of my increases were not from job hopping.  Only my first increase worked that way.  I have been sitting at "enough" for over a decade but yet got increases well above the 3%-6% at most employers for various reasons even after that.  Being satisfied and realizing you are fairly compensated is a key view to have and one that I do see is lacking in many, many people I interview or who report to me.  I think looking for a manager who know what you are worth is key to feeling valued.  I fought, and fought hard, and usually won for good employees that I felt were underpaid.  I got a 40% increase for my help desk person a few years back and several double digit raises for a key programmer.  Trying to do that without a manager to push for you, is nearly impossible. 

JLee

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6860
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #68 on: August 15, 2016, 03:44:26 PM »
This is an intriguing topic but I would say all the responses only analyze this at the superficial first ten years of a career level.  Now granted this is an MMM forum where the entire "career" of someone who can do everything the "right" way and save a substantial portion of their income and FIRE in 9 years of less, so I get that.  However, at some point nothing will help you get an increase, job hopping or staying, because you've maxed out the real pay you can get for that skill set.  Talking in percentages is just misleading.  I once got a 33% raise staying at my current company.  Is it more impressive if that happened when I was already making $75K (as I was), or if I was making $30K?  I think everyone agrees that the former is more difficult because that percentage is many more real dollars to the company budget.  As a manager looking to hire people I have developers who are making $100K thinking they can ask for 20% more because it is not worth it for them to switch jobs for less, however for the skill set they have (about 5 years of experience) they are really maxed out at what any reasonable employer will pay them.  It does not compute that the reason they have been looking for this new job for a year and been unsuccessful is because they have hit the ceiling of the earning power at this point. 

As a manager I also will not go to HR to make the case from someone who has shown that they are simply going to bolt when they do not get a 10% raise.  Like it or not the reality is it is not sustainable to give 10-20% raises to internal employees when profit is not rising at that same pace.  If we did you'd all go from making 100% of your salary to making 0% when the company shut down due to mismanagement.  Not sure how that serves anyone.  I get the need to get paid what you think you are worth, and it seems all the posters feel they are not there yet, but this entire discussion hinges on the fact that at some point the gravy train of job hopping stops and you need to get that you are making a very good wage and be satisfied. 

My personal experience was that most of my increases were not from job hopping.  Only my first increase worked that way.  I have been sitting at "enough" for over a decade but yet got increases well above the 3%-6% at most employers for various reasons even after that.  Being satisfied and realizing you are fairly compensated is a key view to have and one that I do see is lacking in many, many people I interview or who report to me.  I think looking for a manager who know what you are worth is key to feeling valued.  I fought, and fought hard, and usually won for good employees that I felt were underpaid.  I got a 40% increase for my help desk person a few years back and several double digit raises for a key programmer.  Trying to do that without a manager to push for you, is nearly impossible.

This assumes you are fairly compensated. You know as well as I do that managers who will push for 40% raises for their employees are practically non-existent. Without that key manager pushing for you, you're right..it's basically impossible, and it's easier to get that raise by going to another company.

My last employer had a field engineer give his notice for another job - then he was promptly offered $14k to stay.  If he hadn't given his notice, they would've happily been working him 50-60 hours a week for under $60k. I gave my notice on the day of my 3 year anniversary there. I started at $33k/yr with no benefits or vacation and quit at $61k with benefits (five promotions later). My last annual raise was 2% because 'that's all that's in the budget' -- so I left for $97k and twice the vacation time.  I had to move to a HCOL area, but the math still worked out far, far in my favor.

Slee_stack

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 876
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #69 on: August 16, 2016, 02:15:56 PM »
Yeah, I'm not analyzing at the first 10 years of a career, I'm at 24 years.  When is 'long enough' to have a valid opinion?

I haven't job hopped enough really, and the only times I've had significant raises were when I did.  I do recognize that its my fault that I'm paid less today then what I could be.  Its likely I would be making at least 50% more if I had jumped say twice as often.

At my stage of the game its not all that important.  I could hop now, and its possible I will, but now $$$ are secondary to me.  Less time is my key motivator at the moment.

I've decided instead that I will continue to minimize my effort, since doing anything above that nets me absolute zero where I am.

I don't doubt that some companies are better at rewarding retention equally, but I wager they are a very small minority.

Making Cookies

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1645
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #70 on: August 16, 2016, 02:42:04 PM »
Yes it is mandatory. I'm going to quote myself from another thread on job hopping that addresses the issues raised above:


Being a mid-upper management type at a mega Corp: it's because they have crunched the numbers. People hate change, even most people who are otherwise excellent at their jobs hate change. Corporate overlords are banking on this to consistently screw their good long term employees out of money until they actually threaten to quit. They will however hire in new, unknown quantity,  workers at the market rate because that's the only way they can get them.

An old boss gave me the best advice of my career: you should set aside a couple of months every year or 18 months to interview and negotiate offers no matter how much you like your current gig. This will 1)  ensure you know what the market rate is so you can either take another job or negotiate a higher pay at the current one, 2) let you know what opportunities are out there, what skills are in demand, and expose you to opportunities you may not have considered, and 3) keep your interviewing skills, negotiating skills and learning new skills at your current job that will help you get future jobs in the best shape.

I've gone from a salary of 55k 9 years ago to over 300k total compensation today in no small part due to the above. I think I'm very good at what I do,  but I see other talented folks letting inertia handicap their earning potential.

Another bonus of having multiple previous places of employment is the larger network you'll have - so, TL;DR: job hop away!!

You earn $300K but what sort of lifestyle comes with that? I'd love to double my income but I'm not willing to work 60+ hour weeks anymore. At my first engineering job that's what they required. All day and half the night every week. The pay might eventually be average. I told them I was leaving and suddenly there was more money available but it wasn't worth missing out on family time anymore.

dividendman

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1413
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #71 on: August 16, 2016, 02:51:07 PM »
You earn $300K but what sort of lifestyle comes with that? I'd love to double my income but I'm not willing to work 60+ hour weeks anymore. At my first engineering job that's what they required. All day and half the night every week. The pay might eventually be average. I told them I was leaving and suddenly there was more money available but it wasn't worth missing out on family time anymore.

Yeah, if you look at some of my other posts it's definitely soul-destroying and hence wanting to FIRE ASAP. There was a while where I would do the 50+ hour weeks for a long time. I don't work even 40 hrs now most weeks because I have enough FU and talent to not need to just "be there" to impress people.

If they fire me, meh, that's OK.

BoonDogle

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 146
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #72 on: August 17, 2016, 09:34:38 AM »
I would say that job hopping is generally the fastest way to a raise.  Other things to consider are which company has the top earning potential, are you progressing or stagnant, work/life balance that you are after, etc.  My personal experience is that I could have left for more money but would likely be earning less than half of what I do now (as I have watched many coworkers go that route).  You definitely have to be your best advocate when talking to management about raises, performance, etc. or you could get walked on.  I chose to stay (not that I love my job), but it is a shorter path to FIRE.

Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3627
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #73 on: August 17, 2016, 09:55:59 AM »
FWIW, I'm sitting here, new external offer in hand, watching the clock tick down towards my 24-hr deadline to accept/decline waiting for my current company to let me know if I got the internal promotion I interviewed for or not (and if so, what the $$$ offer is).  If not, I'm outta here for the new gig.  Will know one way or the other this afternoon.

BFGirl

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 732
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #74 on: August 17, 2016, 10:05:32 AM »
FWIW, I'm sitting here, new external offer in hand, watching the clock tick down towards my 24-hr deadline to accept/decline waiting for my current company to let me know if I got the internal promotion I interviewed for or not (and if so, what the $$$ offer is).  If not, I'm outta here for the new gig.  Will know one way or the other this afternoon.

Hope it works out well for you!

mm1970

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9344
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #75 on: August 17, 2016, 10:48:08 AM »
This is an intriguing topic but I would say all the responses only analyze this at the superficial first ten years of a career level.  Now granted this is an MMM forum where the entire "career" of someone who can do everything the "right" way and save a substantial portion of their income and FIRE in 9 years of less, so I get that.  However, at some point nothing will help you get an increase, job hopping or staying, because you've maxed out the real pay you can get for that skill set.  Talking in percentages is just misleading.  I once got a 33% raise staying at my current company.  Is it more impressive if that happened when I was already making $75K (as I was), or if I was making $30K?  I think everyone agrees that the former is more difficult because that percentage is many more real dollars to the company budget.  As a manager looking to hire people I have developers who are making $100K thinking they can ask for 20% more because it is not worth it for them to switch jobs for less, however for the skill set they have (about 5 years of experience) they are really maxed out at what any reasonable employer will pay them.  It does not compute that the reason they have been looking for this new job for a year and been unsuccessful is because they have hit the ceiling of the earning power at this point. 

As a manager I also will not go to HR to make the case from someone who has shown that they are simply going to bolt when they do not get a 10% raise.  Like it or not the reality is it is not sustainable to give 10-20% raises to internal employees when profit is not rising at that same pace.  If we did you'd all go from making 100% of your salary to making 0% when the company shut down due to mismanagement.  Not sure how that serves anyone.  I get the need to get paid what you think you are worth, and it seems all the posters feel they are not there yet, but this entire discussion hinges on the fact that at some point the gravy train of job hopping stops and you need to get that you are making a very good wage and be satisfied. 

My personal experience was that most of my increases were not from job hopping.  Only my first increase worked that way.  I have been sitting at "enough" for over a decade but yet got increases well above the 3%-6% at most employers for various reasons even after that.  Being satisfied and realizing you are fairly compensated is a key view to have and one that I do see is lacking in many, many people I interview or who report to me.  I think looking for a manager who know what you are worth is key to feeling valued.  I fought, and fought hard, and usually won for good employees that I felt were underpaid.  I got a 40% increase for my help desk person a few years back and several double digit raises for a key programmer.  Trying to do that without a manager to push for you, is nearly impossible.

mmm...no. I'm at year 28 of my career.  While I got decent raises the first decade with or without job hopping, they have been few and far between since.  I've had some good bosses give me $6k here and there, which is nice.  But their ability to do that is limited by upper management.  So here I sit, at year 28, making approximately $30k a year less than is typical.

However during a few years of the last 5, I routinely hired or helped hire my compatriots with the same amount of experience (who job hopped), at $12k to 30k a year more.

At some point, maybe it is "enough", sure.  A company that I used to work for was a start-up with mostly PhDs, a few engineers, and some technicians.  The majority of the PhDs were making over $100k to start (so figure, $150-200k now), and also made approximately $800k to $1M on the buyout.  So...for them, generally, a 3.5% raise each year was "fine".  In fact, one of the managers said that to his engineer.  "Why do you even want a raise?  If you enjoy your job, that is what counts."  Well, sir, making it on $54k is a far cry from making it on $120k, especially when your experience level has grown exponentially.

I look at the people on here who jump around and get big raises. Some (like Chris22) are in jobs that don't appeal to me in the slightest.  Most have the luxury? of moving.  I realize that at some point, I had to make the decision to take "comfort" and "flexibility" instead of money, as I have two children (and had the 2nd one at 42).  I'm *just* now coming out of the craziness of having a young child/ no sleep/ no time to myself.  Only now would I be able to take on the extra work of a new job/ new learning.  However, I don't have the luxury of moving to a new location.  Some of that was chicken-or-egg.  In my personal experience, I decided on flexibility *after* it was clear that I'd hit the ceiling in my particular company.  At some point, when working all out and getting everything needed accomplished and taking on more responsibility - when you aren't rewarded, it's time to say "eff it".

Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3627
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #76 on: August 17, 2016, 12:15:15 PM »
FWIW, I'm sitting here, new external offer in hand, watching the clock tick down towards my 24-hr deadline to accept/decline waiting for my current company to let me know if I got the internal promotion I interviewed for or not (and if so, what the $$$ offer is).  If not, I'm outta here for the new gig.  Will know one way or the other this afternoon.

Aaaannnnd I'm hopping.  7% raise, 20% bonus vs. 10%, and oh by the way, I've been getting 90% of my pay for the last few months because we're on a furlough flexible work hours/temporary pay reduction.  So an effective 19% pay raise.  Score. 

The rest of my day suddenly looks pretty unproductive.

JLee

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6860
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #77 on: August 17, 2016, 12:38:16 PM »
FWIW, I'm sitting here, new external offer in hand, watching the clock tick down towards my 24-hr deadline to accept/decline waiting for my current company to let me know if I got the internal promotion I interviewed for or not (and if so, what the $$$ offer is).  If not, I'm outta here for the new gig.  Will know one way or the other this afternoon.

Aaaannnnd I'm hopping.  7% raise, 20% bonus vs. 10%, and oh by the way, I've been getting 90% of my pay for the last few months because we're on a furlough flexible work hours/temporary pay reduction.  So an effective 19% pay raise.  Score. 

The rest of my day suddenly looks pretty unproductive.

Congratulations!

Slee_stack

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 876
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #78 on: August 17, 2016, 01:12:02 PM »
- when you aren't rewarded, it's time to say "eff it".
I think you're a kindred spirit.

Very occasionally, I'll feel some guilt about not giving it my 'all'.  But that's doormat thinking and I usually come to my senses quickly.

Today alone, I've had two additional expectations thrown at me that just cannot be done...at least without adding unpaid OT and extra effort.  Sorry.  No. 

OK, just kidding about the sorry part.

goalphish2002

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 290
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #79 on: August 19, 2016, 09:01:45 AM »
If you want to make more money, yes.  Yes, it is...

JCfire

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 145
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #80 on: August 19, 2016, 09:32:54 AM »
I might be the exception to the rule -- I am 10 years into my career and have not had to do any "hopping" to get market level compensation.  I have changed teams within my firm 3 times though.  Not sure if that counts.

mm1970

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9344
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #81 on: August 19, 2016, 10:38:17 AM »
- when you aren't rewarded, it's time to say "eff it".
I think you're a kindred spirit.

Very occasionally, I'll feel some guilt about not giving it my 'all'.  But that's doormat thinking and I usually come to my senses quickly.

Today alone, I've had two additional expectations thrown at me that just cannot be done...at least without adding unpaid OT and extra effort.  Sorry.  No. 

OK, just kidding about the sorry part.
:)

Yes, definitely not sorry.  You'll get effort from me, I promise.  But "all out, I can finish it all, 120%, let's do it!!"  That's going to cost you about $20k per year more.

forummm

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7379
  • Senior Mustachian
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #82 on: August 19, 2016, 02:37:24 PM »
You can manage things, not just people.  For my company, we have a lot of managers who have no headcount but earn the manager title because they manage a P&L.

I manage plenty of things (including a massive, enterprise-priority project), but they're not calling me "manager."

Not all people who manage things are called manager, but generally, everyone who is a manager manages things.

They "manage" to be paid more.

TexasRunner

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 926
  • Age: 30
  • Location: Somewhere in Tejas
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #83 on: August 19, 2016, 03:31:17 PM »
posting to follow (I'm in this boat).

I was given an "excellent" raise this year... of 2.4% @ 39K annually.  Otherwise 936$.  I did 40% more work (in calculable and prove-able number) than both my coworkers, one of which makes 15% more than me.  I'm hopping ship.  School is too expensive for that BS.

retired?

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 665
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #84 on: August 25, 2016, 12:30:08 AM »
Job 1: 2 years and 3 months
Grad school (biggest single reason for good pay rather than the hops)
Job 2: 2 years
Job 3: 20 months
Job 4: 2 years
Job 5: 7+

I hopped for different reasons, and even twice took pay cuts (which were overcome quickly).  But, it can be a great way to boost pay and significantly in some cases.  Job 3 to 4 resulted in 50%.

Job 5 paid the best...partly experience, but mainly the type of shop.  BUT - looking back, I might have been happiest staying with Job 2 and likely would have been paid the same as Job 5 at this point.

Early in my career, when I saw someone that had worked at a place for 8-10+ years, I usually figured they simply didn't have better alternatives.  For good people, loyalty can pay off.

My recommendation before hopping would be to speak to some senior people who have been with your current firm a while to get a feel for your career path possibilities.

dplasters

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 28
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #85 on: August 25, 2016, 08:29:18 AM »
If the goal is to optimize income, strategic job hopping or searching is mandatory, yes.

Is it mandatory in general? No. There are lots of different ways to achieve FIRE. Some work more years but at a more relaxed pace. Others go all in (not unlike the removal of a band-aid).

goalphish2002

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 290
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #86 on: August 25, 2016, 08:34:03 AM »
If the goal is to optimize income, strategic job hopping or searching is mandatory, yes.

Is it mandatory in general? No. There are lots of different ways to achieve FIRE. Some work more years but at a more relaxed pace. Others go all in (not unlike the removal of a band-aid).

Well said.

Mississippi Mudstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2160
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Danielsville, GA
    • A Riving Home - Ramblings of a Recusant Woodworker
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #87 on: October 03, 2016, 02:57:04 PM »
I'm a bit of a job-hopper myself. I have stints after college of 2.5 years, 9 months, 3.5 years, and I'm currently closing in on 2 years with my current employer. Huge pay raises in between job changes are not the norm in my industry (forestry) unless you go from government to corporate work (which I did, and got a 60% raise in doing so) but nobody goes into this industry for the paycheck. Once you're in the corporate world, there's not nearly as much opportunity to job-hop for a pay raise. And if you do get offered a big salary increase, then they're probably offering you a shit job. It's just a small, mature industry, and the cash ain't exactly flowing freely like in finance or technology. I've moved around for better jobs and better locations, but my salary has increased at a steady 3-6% per year, regardless of whether or not I switched companies. So I would say that it does depend on the industry to some extent.

Welp, looks like I'm job-hopping again. At year's end, I'm taking another job with a 15% pay increase, an 8% 401(k) match (vs. 6.6%), and a 25% target bonus (vs. 6%). On the downside, the health insurance will be more costly, but not enough to offset the salary increase. Plus, I'm moving back to my college town, where I've wanted to be ever since I left 8 years ago. We're looking forward to settling down for the long haul and raising our kids there (this will be my 10th move in 14 years and I'm sick of that shit). Hopefully my job-hopping days will be behind me for good.

goalphish2002

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 290
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #88 on: October 03, 2016, 03:09:14 PM »
I'm a bit of a job-hopper myself. I have stints after college of 2.5 years, 9 months, 3.5 years, and I'm currently closing in on 2 years with my current employer. Huge pay raises in between job changes are not the norm in my industry (forestry) unless you go from government to corporate work (which I did, and got a 60% raise in doing so) but nobody goes into this industry for the paycheck. Once you're in the corporate world, there's not nearly as much opportunity to job-hop for a pay raise. And if you do get offered a big salary increase, then they're probably offering you a shit job. It's just a small, mature industry, and the cash ain't exactly flowing freely like in finance or technology. I've moved around for better jobs and better locations, but my salary has increased at a steady 3-6% per year, regardless of whether or not I switched companies. So I would say that it does depend on the industry to some extent.

Welp, looks like I'm job-hopping again. At year's end, I'm taking another job with a 15% pay increase, an 8% 401(k) match (vs. 6.6%), and a 25% target bonus (vs. 6%). On the downside, the health insurance will be more costly, but not enough to offset the salary increase. Plus, I'm moving back to my college town, where I've wanted to be ever since I left 8 years ago. We're looking forward to settling down for the long haul and raising our kids there (this will be my 10th move in 14 years and I'm sick of that shit). Hopefully my job-hopping days will be behind me for good.

Job hopping is mandatory for real raises.