Author Topic: Is job hopping mandatory?  (Read 17156 times)

druth

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Is job hopping mandatory?
« on: August 04, 2016, 11:38:36 AM »
I read about companies saying they can't retain talent because nobody is loyal anymore.  I actually was pretty loyal to my company and would have stayed on but I had a recent experience that definitely tainted my view.  I was told I would get a promotion and probably a 10-20% raise, but HR turned it around because I have 2 years 8 months field experience instead of 3 years.  So now I can wait around another year for my promotion or I can just go somewhere else and get probably a 40% raise.

Boyfriend felt he was hired at too low of a title, wanted a higher title and a raise, boss said yes but HR said he needed to wait for some amount of time at the company.  He was only originally looking for a 10-20% raise but instead found a 50% raise.  His original company had a hair on fire emergency when he said he was leaving and offered to go above 50% (when they wouldn't even do 10% before), but he left anyways.

Is it even possible to NOT job hop these days?  Are there any companies that actually value loyalty back?  It seems job hopping isn't a symptom of employee disloyalty, but employer disloyalty.

bacchi

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2016, 11:46:50 AM »
Changing jobs to get a raise has been a truism for many years (decades?), long before employers were complaining about job loyalty.

It's simply a fact that businesses will try to keep costs low. One way to do this is to not pay employees what they're worth (after the initial wine-and-dine). It's short-term thinking but that's what passes for business strategy.

neo von retorch

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2016, 11:48:13 AM »
You didn't mention your age, but given that you're talking about 40-50% raises, I will make the assumption that you're relatively early in your careers. And so in your case, it's probably much more likely that you'll get big raises from finding a new employer. As you progress through your career, you may find that the raises available won't be quite so amazing, and the quality of the job may matter more to you (including flexibility, minimal behavioral rules, etc.) So for now, enjoy the fact that you can get big raises from changing jobs, and do a good job, learning all the skills important to career progression along the way.

Prospective employers always ask me about the shorter lengths of employment on my resume, but ultimately, they (mostly) still offer me a position anyway. (I'm probably still underpaid for my area. Someday I'll get that fixed...)

Chris22

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2016, 11:53:07 AM »
You didn't mention your age, but given that you're talking about 40-50% raises, I will make the assumption that you're relatively early in your careers. And so in your case, it's probably much more likely that you'll get big raises from finding a new employer. As you progress through your career, you may find that the raises available won't be quite so amazing, and the quality of the job may matter more to you (including flexibility, minimal behavioral rules, etc.) So for now, enjoy the fact that you can get big raises from changing jobs, and do a good job, learning all the skills important to career progression along the way.

Prospective employers always ask me about the shorter lengths of employment on my resume, but ultimately, they (mostly) still offer me a position anyway. (I'm probably still underpaid for my area. Someday I'll get that fixed...)

From a percentage viewpoint, but a 4% raise when you make $100k is the same as a 10% raise when you make $40k. 

I'm a relative job hopper, I'm up or out.  I try not to stay in a role longer than ~2 years.  If I can get myself a promotion, great.  If I can't, I'll find somewhere I can get a substantial (10% minimum) raise for moving companies. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2016, 11:56:30 AM »
It's a pain in the ass to change jobs.  You have to do the work on the resume and cover letters, network, interview, land the job, then change your whole commute/schedule.  Employers know this, so they will almost always pay more for someone new than for someone who has worked at the company for many years.  Business is typically run to squeeze every last penny out of the resources that they have . . . not to have a happy workforce.  While they probably exist somewhere, I've never worked at or known anyone who has worked at a place that really demonstrates that loyalty is valued.

TLDR - It's almost always going to be in your best interests to leave for another job.

Guesl982374

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2016, 12:01:50 PM »
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?

Yes for the reasons you and your boyfriend have recently learned. Try to minimize the number of <=2 year stints as possible to avoid the "job hopper" title.

druth

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2016, 12:11:48 PM »
You didn't mention your age, but given that you're talking about 40-50% raises, I will make the assumption that you're relatively early in your careers. And so in your case, it's probably much more likely that you'll get big raises from finding a new employer. As you progress through your career, you may find that the raises available won't be quite so amazing

That plus the industry definitely make a difference.  Thank goodness for FIRE, I'll be out before I can even be considered late career anyways.  In an ideal world though, I do like stability and wouldn't have minded spending my 7 years or whatever at the same place.  I like my boss and co-workers, but oh well.

Jack

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2016, 12:20:55 PM »
I job-hopped for other reasons (I double-majored in college and wanted to work at the intersection of the two fields), but the hops came with big raises anyway:

Job 1 (related to major A): $40K
Job 2 (related to major B): $65K
Job 3 (related to both): $80K+ and much better benefits than either of the other two

aFrugalFather

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2016, 12:25:56 PM »
A well run company will pay you a market rate salary or have other benefits.  The cost to find new talent versus keeping good employees is quite substantial.

GuitarStv

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2016, 12:29:47 PM »
It just occurred to me that the answer to this question might depend on the job field that you're working in.

Altons Bobs

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2016, 12:33:24 PM »
I only worked in corporate America for a little over 10 years, and from what I had seen, you'd get promoted if you did a good job and your superior valued your contribution.  But 9 out of 10 times people get big rates within the same company is because they know how to suck up, it's not that they do a good job.  I'd seen that over and over again.  For the hard working ones who do a good job but refuse to suck up, it's unlikely that you will get big raises unless you job hop.  So needless to say, I was a job hopper, and then I just got tired of the whole corporate America BS and politics and I left and never went back to corporate America.

druth

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2016, 12:39:04 PM »
A well run company will pay you a market rate salary or have other benefits.  The cost to find new talent versus keeping good employees is quite substantial.

That seems intuitively obvious, but I'm not convinced that reflects any real world company except maybe some very small ones.

druth

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2016, 12:42:19 PM »
For the hard working ones who do a good job but refuse to suck up, it's unlikely that you will get big raises unless you job hop.  So needless to say, I was a job hopper, and then I just got tired of the whole corporate America BS and politics and I left and never went back to corporate America.

This is amusing because the only comments I got in my performance review were pretty much "perfect, we are very happy, you are doing great, but you should spend more time getting to know your coworkers."  Basically got dinged for not going to enough happy hours.

Rubic

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2016, 12:49:23 PM »
Is it even possible to NOT job hop these days?

(Emphasis mine)

I just want to point out that this is not a recent phenomenon.  Thirty years ago I jumped ship from my first job as a college graduate for a 50% pay bump.

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2016, 01:25:57 PM »
I'm a bit of a job-hopper myself. I have stints after college of 2.5 years, 9 months, 3.5 years, and I'm currently closing in on 2 years with my current employer. Huge pay raises in between job changes are not the norm in my industry (forestry) unless you go from government to corporate work (which I did, and got a 60% raise in doing so) but nobody goes into this industry for the paycheck. Once you're in the corporate world, there's not nearly as much opportunity to job-hop for a pay raise. And if you do get offered a big salary increase, then they're probably offering you a shit job. It's just a small, mature industry, and the cash ain't exactly flowing freely like in finance or technology. I've moved around for better jobs and better locations, but my salary has increased at a steady 3-6% per year, regardless of whether or not I switched companies. So I would say that it does depend on the industry to some extent.

ysette9

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2016, 01:34:54 PM »
Seconding what others have said, I imagine it depends on the industry. I'm in aerospace and my husband is in tech; we live in Silicon Valley. That means that he has been working in Silicon Valley companies all his career and I have been physically located in Silicon Valley but in a parallel universe since I am in a different industry. We got similar degrees from the same schools. He has worked at 5 companies during the time I have had 8 different jobs at the same company. We earn within 2% of each other. He has had to hop companies to get promotions/more money/career growth whereas I have performed well and been rewarded internally. I believe that a large part of why I have been able to be successful like this is that I work for a large company that supports job rotations and also has development programs. This is a long way of answering the original question with an "it depends". :)

sailinlight

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2016, 01:39:57 PM »
I hopped twice:

My first job after college was at 45k.   I always felt I was lowballed there and only lasted about nine months.
Second job was at 60k.  I also felt I was a bit low-balled and lastdr about six months.
Next job was at 68k.  I have stayed with that company for the last eight years..  It's a medium sized company and I have averaged about seven percent raises in the last eight years.  But it's a good work/life balance and I have had pretty good autonomy while working there.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 01:46:01 PM by sailinlight »

Fishindude

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2016, 01:43:21 PM »
I agree with aFrugalFather.   A well run company will pay you a market rate salary or have other benefits.  The cost to find new talent versus keeping good employees is quite substantial.

People stay put at the places that are well run, and well run businesses generally pay better than their competitors so there is no need to hop.
Unfortunately, there are probably more poorly run businesses than well run businesses.   People seeking employment should probably put more effort into learning about their potential employer and actively seek out and try to go to work for the best one.

Chris22

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2016, 01:46:25 PM »
A well run company will pay you a market rate salary or have other benefits.  The cost to find new talent versus keeping good employees is quite substantial.

It almost never works out that way.  First off, only a portion of your talent will turn over unless you're a terrible employer; most employees are too lazy or too comfortable or just can't be bothered to look and move.  Second, it is very hard to justify YoY rising cost of talent beyond an inflationary level.  OTOH, it is easy to justify large amounts of money spent on "one time" recruiting expenses to fill "critical roles".  Third, for most people, you don't really deserve significantly more money just for doing the same thing UNLESS that same thing is valuable and hard to replace.  Companies simply don't incent people to stay in one role, often to the company's detriment in my opinion, but it doesn't work that way.

Chris22

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2016, 01:49:04 PM »
I agree with aFrugalFather.   A well run company will pay you a market rate salary or have other benefits.  The cost to find new talent versus keeping good employees is quite substantial.

People stay put at the places that are well run, and well run businesses generally pay better than their competitors so there is no need to hop.
Unfortunately, there are probably more poorly run businesses than well run businesses.   People seeking employment should probably put more effort into learning about their potential employer and actively seek out and try to go to work for the best one.

Nah, like I said above, most businesses are structured so the only way to make significantly more money is to get promoted into expanding roles (outside of commission based stuff obviously).  Even the most well run company is not likely to give significant merit raises UNLESS the skillset of those people is such that they could get even more outside the firm.  Is it possible people are happy with a stagnant or very slow-growing wage at a well-run company?  Yes.  But that's different than the company being able to match the pay of someone moving frequently.

Prairie Stash

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2016, 01:59:16 PM »
I read about companies saying they can't retain talent because nobody is loyal anymore. 

Is it even possible to NOT job hop these days?  Are there any companies that actually value loyalty back?  It seems job hopping isn't a symptom of employee disloyalty, but employer disloyalty.
Loyalty is a two way street. Will the company you work for lay you off during tight times? My company will lay me off as soon as the numbers deem it necessary, so long and good luck.

Always remember, you're just employee #55 on a spreadsheet behind the closed doors, few companies see you any other way. Its not a well run/poorly run scenario, its math on a spreadsheet.

fattest_foot

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2016, 02:01:38 PM »
A well run company will pay you a market rate salary or have other benefits.  The cost to find new talent versus keeping good employees is quite substantial.

That seems intuitively obvious, but I'm not convinced that reflects any real world company except maybe some very small ones.

I'd say just reading the MMM forums for a while makes this rather obvious (maybe the FU money thread?). There have been a number of stories where a person leaves because they think they deserve a certain salary, and their replacement gets paid what their asking salary had been. That doesn't make much business sense.

Chris22 above also brings up a good point. Companies become hamstrung by their own policy. You can't go giving out 10% raises; that's just against policy. But hiring someone on for the same role, at that rate? Sure thing!

Chris22

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2016, 02:08:30 PM »
I read about companies saying they can't retain talent because nobody is loyal anymore. 

Is it even possible to NOT job hop these days?  Are there any companies that actually value loyalty back?  It seems job hopping isn't a symptom of employee disloyalty, but employer disloyalty.
Loyalty is a two way street. Will the company you work for lay you off during tight times? My company will lay me off as soon as the numbers deem it necessary, so long and good luck.

Always remember, you're just employee #55 on a spreadsheet behind the closed doors, few companies see you any other way. Its not a well run/poorly run scenario, its math on a spreadsheet.

I'm the guy who used to run the layoff program at a major company you've heard of.  You're not even Employee #5.  You're placed in several buckets based on various metrics.  A typical restructuring package looks like:

"Number of People: 52
Departments: IT, Finance, Engineering, Marketing
Total Severance: $2.4M
Age groups: Under 35: 19% 35-55: 63% 55+: 18%
Seniority: <2 years: 23% 2-10 years: 42% 10-20 years: 33% 20+: 2%
Rating: Top: 4%  Middle: 57%  Bottom:  39%
Employee Band: Executive: 3%, Professional: 37%, Hourly: 60%"

That's it.  There's backup if they need it, but the execs never do.  They just need to make sure they're capturing a wide enough swath of whatever (mostly age) to avoid wrongful termination suits.

gggggg

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2016, 03:56:03 AM »
I'm personally not a hopper. I'm 41, and have only ever had 3 jobs in my life, including teenage jobs. With what I do now, you can't hop and make progress; you must show you're a long-timer to move up. Every career field is different however.

Also, I think in order to move up in a current organization, you need to have a skill(s) that the boss values, and have good chemistry with management. I was just promoted, and despite others having advanced degrees over me, and are actually better employees than me, I got the job over them because I actually get along with the boss, whereas they are standoffish to management.  So yeah, politics plays a big part.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 04:04:28 AM by dcamnc »

MMMarbleheader

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2016, 05:22:19 AM »
I hopped twice and landed at a company with a very different corporate culture than i am used to (in a good way).

This company has only started hiring experienced hires 10 years ago. Before that you had to start as a co-op! or you were not getting in the door. No on left, everyone promoted from within. My job wasn't even posted, it was an internal referral.

Things have changed in the world in the past 110 years, but mainly the culture is the same. Our CEO, SVP, GM, etc. all started as co-ops and this is a company with 5k+ employees.

They are structured much like the federal government with levels, pay grades, etc. so aside from obvious high performers, everyone is with $10k of each other depending on your level. It has been really easy planning for FIRE knowing the salary increases that go with each level.

Before I was a big proponent of job hopping but if i was hired here after graduation from college I doubt I would ever think about leaving. It does help that they are at the top of their industry so the projects you will be working on at any other employer would be a letdown.

mak1277

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2016, 09:11:56 AM »
I've found that most people have an over-inflated sense of their own abilities and value (myself included).  It's impossible that the lack of promotions is because the person isn't a strong performer, right?

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2016, 09:24:48 AM »
I've found that most people have an over-inflated sense of their own abilities and value (myself included).  It's impossible that the lack of promotions is because the person isn't a strong performer, right?

Haha, I'd say this response is on-the-mark. But I also agree with Chris22 that companies can (and do) get away with paying people less than market value once they're within an organization, because most people are too lazy/comfortable/risk-averse to test the waters elsewhere.

Schaefer Light

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2016, 10:18:16 AM »
The thing that I hate the most is when a company won't give a deserving, high-performing employee a raise until they have another job offer.  By then, it may be too late to keep the employee.

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2016, 10:46:49 AM »
A well run company will pay you a market rate salary or have other benefits.  The cost to find new talent versus keeping good employees is quite substantial.

That seems intuitively obvious, but I'm not convinced that reflects any real world company except maybe some very small ones.

I'd say just reading the MMM forums for a while makes this rather obvious (maybe the FU money thread?). There have been a number of stories where a person leaves because they think they deserve a certain salary, and their replacement gets paid what their asking salary had been. That doesn't make much business sense.

Chris22 above also brings up a good point. Companies become hamstrung by their own policy. You can't go giving out 10% raises; that's just against policy. But hiring someone on for the same role, at that rate? Sure thing!

Yep, assuming that a company run by humans will behave logically is, in itself, illogical.

By the same logic, it would be illogical for most people to spend like crazy on pay day when they know they ran out of money last month and need to pay their credit card. So therefore they do not do it, and the AMWOSAC has no one to mock.

Aelias

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2016, 11:51:00 AM »
I read about companies saying they can't retain talent because nobody is loyal anymore. 

Is it even possible to NOT job hop these days?  Are there any companies that actually value loyalty back?  It seems job hopping isn't a symptom of employee disloyalty, but employer disloyalty.
Loyalty is a two way street. Will the company you work for lay you off during tight times? My company will lay me off as soon as the numbers deem it necessary, so long and good luck.

Always remember, you're just employee #55 on a spreadsheet behind the closed doors, few companies see you any other way. Its not a well run/poorly run scenario, its math on a spreadsheet.

YUP.  Always remember--it makes sense to be loyal to PEOPLE, but not to COMPANIES.  Because loyalty is a human trait, and, in the overwhelming number of cases, companies will not be loyal to employees. Even good employees, even employees who have been around forever.  As soon as you're no longer an asset to them, you will be cut.  Everyone is replaceable. They won't think twice.

So, if you get a better offer, hop.  Try to end things on a positive note with the people you actually work with, by giving enough notice and finishing up projects.  But don't stick around in a job hoping that your loyalty will be rewarded.  It just doesn't work that way.

dreams_and_discoveries

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2016, 10:43:31 AM »
If you are a high performer in a career type job, I'd say it's mandatory.

How can you lead an organisation, when you've never seen how other places work, to appreciate both the upsides and challenges.

I've stayed with one company for 7 years, but that was different 5 jobs (some sideways moves, some promotions).






NoStacheOhio

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2016, 11:07:49 AM »
Boyfriend felt he was hired at too low of a title, wanted a higher title and a raise, boss said yes but HR said he needed to wait for some amount of time at the company.

This is basically me, except HR said no, "other duties as assigned." Never mind that I'm doing work for which they were paying a freelancer $15k/week.

My favorite thing is when I get an email announcing half the people in another department getting "manager" promotions, even though they don't have any people reporting to them.

Yes, I'm bitter. I've been looking for two or three years, but staff jobs in my world are somewhat scarce. Tomorrow and the next day I'm taking vacation days to do my first freelance job in a LONG time. It feels kind of good.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 11:19:07 AM by NoStacheOhio »

Chris22

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2016, 12:22:07 PM »
Boyfriend felt he was hired at too low of a title, wanted a higher title and a raise, boss said yes but HR said he needed to wait for some amount of time at the company.

This is basically me, except HR said no, "other duties as assigned." Never mind that I'm doing work for which they were paying a freelancer $15k/week.

My favorite thing is when I get an email announcing half the people in another department getting "manager" promotions, even though they don't have any people reporting to them.

Yes, I'm bitter. I've been looking for two or three years, but staff jobs in my world are somewhat scarce. Tomorrow and the next day I'm taking vacation days to do my first freelance job in a LONG time. It feels kind of good.

You can manage things, not just people.  For my company, we have a lot of managers who have no headcount but earn the manager title because they manage a P&L. 

dividendman

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2016, 12:29:17 PM »
Yes it is mandatory. I'm going to quote myself from another thread on job hopping that addresses the issues raised above:


Being a mid-upper management type at a mega Corp: it's because they have crunched the numbers. People hate change, even most people who are otherwise excellent at their jobs hate change. Corporate overlords are banking on this to consistently screw their good long term employees out of money until they actually threaten to quit. They will however hire in new, unknown quantity,  workers at the market rate because that's the only way they can get them.

An old boss gave me the best advice of my career: you should set aside a couple of months every year or 18 months to interview and negotiate offers no matter how much you like your current gig. This will 1)  ensure you know what the market rate is so you can either take another job or negotiate a higher pay at the current one, 2) let you know what opportunities are out there, what skills are in demand, and expose you to opportunities you may not have considered, and 3) keep your interviewing skills, negotiating skills and learning new skills at your current job that will help you get future jobs in the best shape.

I've gone from a salary of 55k 9 years ago to over 300k total compensation today in no small part due to the above. I think I'm very good at what I do,  but I see other talented folks letting inertia handicap their earning potential.

Another bonus of having multiple previous places of employment is the larger network you'll have - so, TL;DR: job hop away!!

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2016, 12:34:26 PM »
You can manage things, not just people.  For my company, we have a lot of managers who have no headcount but earn the manager title because they manage a P&L.

I manage plenty of things (including a massive, enterprise-priority project), but they're not calling me "manager."

Chris22

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2016, 01:34:20 PM »
You can manage things, not just people.  For my company, we have a lot of managers who have no headcount but earn the manager title because they manage a P&L.

I manage plenty of things (including a massive, enterprise-priority project), but they're not calling me "manager."

Not all people who manage things are called manager, but generally, everyone who is a manager manages things. 

Schaefer Light

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2016, 08:45:20 AM »
Boyfriend felt he was hired at too low of a title, wanted a higher title and a raise, boss said yes but HR said he needed to wait for some amount of time at the company.

This is basically me, except HR said no, "other duties as assigned." Never mind that I'm doing work for which they were paying a freelancer $15k/week.

My favorite thing is when I get an email announcing half the people in another department getting "manager" promotions, even though they don't have any people reporting to them.

Yes, I'm bitter. I've been looking for two or three years, but staff jobs in my world are somewhat scarce. Tomorrow and the next day I'm taking vacation days to do my first freelance job in a LONG time. It feels kind of good.
I think that usually happens when it's the only way to give those people a raise within a company's ridiculous pay structure.

Northwestie

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2016, 10:06:30 AM »
I guess it depends on your field and the available employers where you wish to live.  Personally I've managed ok staying put - job duration has been 3.5 yrs, 3.5. 10, 12, and now 3 yr so far and will be reducing hours in two years.    The two shorter early stints was an entry job and then a move from east to west coast.   I think I started at $5/hr with a Masters and am into 6 figures now.  But I'm not in a high paying tech field -- let's say the ecology field is a bit different.

So I would likely just spend some time talking with your peers in the industry.  You can be straight up with the boss and say you think you deserve more and here's why.  No compliance - then likely time to shop around and maybe they counter your offer.  But long term - you may want to think about more than money and why you like or don't like to work at a place.  Good luck.

Slee_stack

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2016, 11:04:05 AM »
I'm fairly jaded.  My current company has virtually zero loyalty to employees.

I've watched many people get walked out at random times, usually with the company shooting itself in the foot as a result.

Even if someone is under-performing, the concept of the right timing is completely foreign here.

I stick around because its relatively convenient, low stress, the work is semi interesting, and I get (overall) decent pay with little to no OT.  I have ZERO loyalty in return though.  I would be very much at peace if my last day was today.

I've never really seen high raises from within, in the industries I've worked (automotive, electronics, aerospace).  I've certainly experienced plenty of lip service, but pretty poor follow thru.

I'm supposedly a 'top performer' but I haven't been promoted in 6 years.  Hmm.  What did my top performer raise get me this year?  3.5%.  Hoo doggies!  Average folks got 2%  Below average, 0%.

Meanwhile if you are at the right location, and/or the right age and sex, upper management can't trip over themselves quickly enough to promote or create a whole new special position for you.  Usually inside of 1- 2 years. 

Its scary how vapid some of the folks I've seen that have been promoted.  Seriously scary.  Deer in the headlights type of performance.  They can't answer hard questions.  They don't understand anything remotely technical, even if dumbed down.  It sure isn't a knack for people management skills either.  I don't know what it is unless there's quota stuff going on.  Its really bizarro world.

I'm in a complete dead-end, but I'm at or around the cusp of FI, so I put up with the silliness....and minimize my stress and any extra 'free' effort.  Eff companies.

aschmidt2930

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2016, 11:09:13 AM »
I read about companies saying they can't retain talent because nobody is loyal anymore.  I actually was pretty loyal to my company and would have stayed on but I had a recent experience that definitely tainted my view.  I was told I would get a promotion and probably a 10-20% raise, but HR turned it around because I have 2 years 8 months field experience instead of 3 years.  So now I can wait around another year for my promotion or I can just go somewhere else and get probably a 40% raise.

Boyfriend felt he was hired at too low of a title, wanted a higher title and a raise, boss said yes but HR said he needed to wait for some amount of time at the company.  He was only originally looking for a 10-20% raise but instead found a 50% raise.  His original company had a hair on fire emergency when he said he was leaving and offered to go above 50% (when they wouldn't even do 10% before), but he left anyways.

Is it even possible to NOT job hop these days?  Are there any companies that actually value loyalty back?  It seems job hopping isn't a symptom of employee disloyalty, but employer disloyalty.

I suppose it's possible, but unlikely/rare.  Unfortunately, the situations you described seem to play out time and time again, with the same basic story.  It's a corporate epidemic of being penny wise and pound foolish. If I were you, I'd go get what I'm worth now.  There's no guarantees that raise will even come next year, a bad quarter and the company can go into a raise freeze overnight.

Helvegen

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2016, 11:12:06 AM »
My workplace is a revolving door. Whenever people want more money, they know better than to try and whine to management for it. Instead they leave for a good pay raise for 1-5 years and then when their new employer doesn't raise up with time, come back here for another massive pay increase.

I already get paid top dollar for what I do, so it is unlikely I would gain anything from leaving, so I don't. However, for many it is well worth it and in this job market, quite a few are aggressively headhunted for instead of it just being that the employee was actively looking alone. That was the case for my husband and quite a few others we know.

JLee

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2016, 11:44:36 AM »
A well run company will pay you a market rate salary or have other benefits.  The cost to find new talent versus keeping good employees is quite substantial.

It almost never works out that way.  First off, only a portion of your talent will turn over unless you're a terrible employer; most employees are too lazy or too comfortable or just can't be bothered to look and move.  Second, it is very hard to justify YoY rising cost of talent beyond an inflationary level.  OTOH, it is easy to justify large amounts of money spent on "one time" recruiting expenses to fill "critical roles".  Third, for most people, you don't really deserve significantly more money just for doing the same thing UNLESS that same thing is valuable and hard to replace.  Companies simply don't incent people to stay in one role, often to the company's detriment in my opinion, but it doesn't work that way.
It extends past doing the same thing, though.  At my last employer, I was promoted five times over three years and still wound up making 6% less than a previous outside hire was brought in at years previously. Same title, same role.

Maybe there are companies who promote internal people and pay them the same as a new hire for the same job, but I haven't worked for one.

Tjat

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2016, 12:37:47 PM »
No, but it can help if you're stuck in a dead end role or dead end company.

If one anecdotal case heard on the internet is enough to refute the hypothesis that job hopping is "mandatory".... I found a good company that I like, had a relatively strong starting salary coming out of undergrad, and 9 years later at the same company my income has increased 400%. In my case, is appears that job hopping was not mandatory.

Chris22

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2016, 01:09:03 PM »
No, but it can help if you're stuck in a dead end role or dead end company.

If one anecdotal case heard on the internet is enough to refute the hypothesis that job hopping is "mandatory".... I found a good company that I like, had a relatively strong starting salary coming out of undergrad, and 9 years later at the same company my income has increased 400%. In my case, is appears that job hopping was not mandatory.

The flip side is, you can't know what your salary would be now if you had job hopped.  It could be 600%.  Or it could be 200%. 

MMMarbleheader

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2016, 01:25:53 PM »
I think alot of  it has to do with how the company makes money off of you. If you are just cost, I can see why they would try to get a deal off of you.

Other industries like law and consulting, who may bill out at a W2 *multiplier, benefit in some ways to have a work force that is being paid market rates because they are making more money the more you get paid, assuming it does not make them un-competitive when getting clients.

MisterTwoForty

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2016, 01:38:29 PM »
To grab a decent sized raise, switching companies seems to be the best way to get about it.  The largest raise I have had without a promotion in my 10 years of corporate life has been 5.5%.  I have nearly doubled my salary in one move, and had a 40% increase in another.  I'd say it's worth looking at new opportunities if you get to a point in your current role that your pay starts to stagnate. 

Maenad

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2016, 04:55:45 PM »
On the flip side, DH and I have seen engineers who are Career Company Cogs, 20-25 years with the same company. When they get laid off they have a really hard time finding another job, because they don't know how to adapt to how things are done at another company. In our world it's 3-5 years per job, to show that you learned things, developed new skills, and "added value". Anything more than 10 years at a company and the interviewers will ask a lot of probing questions to see how stuck in a rut you are.

Tjat

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #47 on: August 10, 2016, 07:05:05 PM »
No, but it can help if you're stuck in a dead end role or dead end company.

If one anecdotal case heard on the internet is enough to refute the hypothesis that job hopping is "mandatory".... I found a good company that I like, had a relatively strong starting salary coming out of undergrad, and 9 years later at the same company my income has increased 400%. In my case, is appears that job hopping was not mandatory.

The flip side is, you can't know what your salary would be now if you had job hopped.  It could be 600%.  Or it could be 200%.

Right, you'll never know if the choice you made is optimal in some situations. I interpreted "is job hopping mandatory" to mean is it required to raise yourself to a suitably lucrative compensation. There's no way of knowing (or point in speculating) if it's maximized.

TheAnonOne

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2016, 08:45:38 AM »
Job hopping is literally the reason I can even contemplate FIRE.

My first software job was around $15/hour. I am 7 years into my career making $80/hour(W2) or around $170,000 + OT (made a bit over 200k last year)

I have only received 1 raise in that time from a singular company, and it was when I switched contracts under that firm.


It is hard, you may burn a few bridges (try not to...) but it is worth it. The main reason is that during a job hop you can nab promotions. AKA: Jump from JR. to Mid or from Mid to Sr. Probably YEARS before your current employer will do it for you.

Greenroller

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Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2016, 09:01:39 AM »
It seems job hopping isn't a symptom of employee disloyalty, but employer disloyalty.

^^^. I couldn't agree more. This 100%