Author Topic: Bizarro New Car World  (Read 23204 times)

use2betrix

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #50 on: October 29, 2015, 04:29:18 AM »
Please provide me some examples of these fully rebuilt 35' airstreams for 20k. It would need to be entirely gutted to have some the same reliability as a new one. All new plumbing and electrical in addition to just appliances and furnishings.

Also, where would I store things like my tool chest and mountain bikes? Right now I have a toy hauler so my trailer actually has a 12' garage, which will also be the kids room down the road.

I have looked at air streams a ton, and while they are a status symbol, they are really not much more beneficial for the cost.

Plus, with my things I like to take with me, I'd also need an enclosed trailer to carry my other things, food and cooking utensil storage would be a big hassle as well.

After this 5th wheel, which I expect to have maybe 5-6 more years, I plan on a smaller travel trailer (or maybe even airstream) that I can tow with a smaller truck. I'll use that for the last few years of regular travel, and then when I partially fire and travel and do contract work a few months a year. Plus it will be small and convenient enough for easier travel and camping/long trips with the family.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2015, 05:58:56 AM by Trixr606 »

DollarBill

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #51 on: October 29, 2015, 09:51:00 AM »
We've had the same next-door neighbors for 16 years. The two of them have had some combination of Lexus, BMW, or Audi on 3-year leases. Even at $500 per car a month, which I'm guessing is conservative -- I've never leased -- that comes to $192,000 over 16 years.

Us too. When the recession hit in 2007, our neighbors had a new Audi, a new Lexus, a BMW and a boat. The husband lost his job. They immediately sold the BMW and boat, but kept the brand new Audi and Lexus. I assume the BMW was the only car they could sell without coming out of pocket.

At one point, their recycling papers blew all over our lawn. As I was picking them up, I found their bank statement with $7 in their checking account, and a filled-out application to the local Kwik Shop (which I guess he decided not to turn in). We wondered how they were even making mortgage payments and if the house was going to get foreclosed on.

As it turns out life went on and they have recovered. They still have those same cars - the Lexus and the Audi. I guess they decided that new cars weren't really worth what they went through.
I think people are chiming in on Trixr606 post because of stories like this. I think overall he's doing great and has a solid plan. If I was in his shoes then I would try to keep my yearly expenses lower than the 4% rule of my investments. That way if jobs did dry up then you will have the security of keeping your same lifestyle for many years or forever. I think it's easy for a lot of people who make really good money to have that lifestyle creep and the I can afford it mindset.

At some point you might find yourself getting tired of the traveling and want something permanent which will change the situation. A majority of people out there go about their life then down size going into retirement and I think it can be very painful to most of those people. I've designed my lifestyle to where there will always be a gradual increase without working. I even continue to save a certain amount each year to insure my own pay raise for inflation.

   

 

needmyfi

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #52 on: October 29, 2015, 10:23:39 AM »
We've had the same next-door neighbors for 16 years. The two of them have had some combination of Lexus, BMW, or Audi on 3-year leases. Even at $500 per car a month, which I'm guessing is conservative -- I've never leased -- that comes to $192,000 over 16 years.

Us too. When the recession hit in 2007, our neighbors had a new Audi, a new Lexus, a BMW and a boat. The husband lost his job. They immediately sold the BMW and boat, but kept the brand new Audi and Lexus. I assume the BMW was the only car they could sell without coming out of pocket.

At one point, their recycling papers blew all over our lawn. As I was picking them up, I found their bank statement with $7 in their checking account, and a filled-out application to the local Kwik Shop (which I guess he decided not to turn in). We wondered how they were even making mortgage payments and if the house was going to get foreclosed on.

As it turns out life went on and they have recovered. They still have those same cars - the Lexus and the Audi. I guess they decided that new cars weren't really worth what they went through.
I think people are chiming in on Trixr606 post because of stories like this. I think overall he's doing great and has a solid plan. If I was in his shoes then I would try to keep my yearly expenses lower than the 4% rule of my investments. That way if jobs did dry up then you will have the security of keeping your same lifestyle for many years or forever. I think it's easy for a lot of people who make really good money to have that lifestyle creep and the I can afford it mindset.

At some point you might find yourself getting tired of the traveling and want something permanent which will change the situation. A majority of people out there go about their life then down size going into retirement and I think it can be very painful to most of those people. I've designed my lifestyle to where there will always be a gradual increase without working. I even continue to save a certain amount each year to insure my own pay raise for inflation.
 

+1  I do think he is doing great as well, and is starting to understand the things  vrs freedom balance.  Didn't mean to harsh on him.  Just reminding him to question everything.

acroy

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #53 on: October 29, 2015, 10:47:53 AM »
Cars are not all that expensive, historically speaking.
Education and health care have gone nuts

nereo

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #54 on: October 29, 2015, 10:58:56 AM »
Cars are not all that expensive, historically speaking.
Education and health care have gone nuts

Very interesting!  It's also worth noting that cars have become more powerful while consuming less fuel over the last 30 years, and that a car's longevity has actually increased.  I do question how the cost of car repairs has changed.

The rate of increase of higher education has just been stupid in recent decades.  Health care is a bit tougher - while it's certainly outstripped inflation I'd much rather have (and pay for) 2015-style medical care than have 1980-style medical care.  It's not exactly an apples-to-apples comparison when advanced procedures (e.g. radiation/chemo, bypass, transplants) are now quite advanced compared to where they were 35 years ago and covered under typical health plans.

golfreak12

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #55 on: October 30, 2015, 09:52:37 AM »

So we should lay off our mocking of excess consumerism because a very small percentage of the population can afford a $60k vehicle while still saving enough for retirement?

I think you've taken this all too personally.  Just because you've done the math for yourself, taking into account your own values and financial situation, does not mean the outrageous price of vehicles and the typical folks who buy them aren't deserving of a little mockery.

Have you actually read the MMM blog posts?  You won't find a lot of "well, probably shouldn't poke fun at anyone regardless of how stupid their decisions look, because they might belong to an ultra-small fraternity of folks whose personal situation justifies that decision" in the blog, so I'm not sure why you are looking for it in the forums.  If owning an expensive truck enables you to live a scaled-down life in other ways, and you've done the math and are willing to trade the time-to-FI for the truck, then good for you.  Do you honestly think more than 0.01% of the 60k-vehicle-buying population is in the same boat?

My reply to Trix was something of this nature so you spoke for me.
I mean, its your money do what ever you like but you really can't justify a $60K truck unless you're filthy rich and you can't spend it fast enough.
Just because you can afford it doesn't mean it a good buy.

SuperAntiChicken

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #56 on: October 30, 2015, 05:50:36 PM »
Not all new car purchases are so extreme or foolish.  I bought my first new car in April 2014, a Subaru Impreza hatchback.  My out-the-door price including all taxes and registration was just shy of 21k.  My previous car (a 2001 BMW 325xi) was totaled and I was given a check by the other driver's insurance company.  Knowing I had the cash on hand to buy the car outright I still took a loan at 3.8% APR for 15.5k and then aggressively paid it off over 9 months.  I've had the car for 25,000 miles and done only routine maintenance such as oil changes and air filters.  My previous car, the BMW, had nightmarish maintenance costs and more than one severely untimely breakdown.  The comfort of this reliable car that is still simple enough for me to do my own maintenance is a godsend.  While the Impreza is no luxury item, even bare bones package cars have so many features today it is incredible.

Now I loved my BMW, but now I see the merit of new car ownership.  As long as I do my own work and know the mechanical ins and out of her, she will last me a long time.  My only issue with modern cars is that they are kind of soulless.  The new Subaru is so convenient and objectively good but something is lacking.  I shift my own gears because I love driving but still needed something.  It was the car my brain wanted my heart to love.

So I did something very un-mustachian.  I bought a 1993 miata for pleasure driving and autocross.  I'm fully funding my IRA and dumping a fair amount into my 401k too.  At age 29 I'm somewhere between early and late to the FI game, but I'm making no sacrifices.  I'll say it again.  I LOVE driving.  This is something where there is no compromise.  New cars offer a lot, a lot!  Most people spend too much on them and don't appreciate that they are not assets, but liabilities.  I appreciate this.  But the joy of driving is something that makes me whole.

If you care, let me show some of my driving video that illustrate this best.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltf-RwQRkgg&list=PL0pG3tzfvpOQmCoNT3fGpR38uCC2Xrgdt

RecoveringCarClown

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #57 on: October 30, 2015, 08:31:36 PM »
$21k on a Subaru?  Whiskey Tango Foxtrot

WynnDuffy73

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #58 on: October 31, 2015, 07:13:34 AM »
I had the same reaction about a month ago when I went to a Ford dealership with my 70 year old father.

The prices of the Ford Edge and the Ford Explorer just blew me away.   $40k to $55k for a Ford?

Who buys this stuff?  I have a Stache that would enable me to write a check for these but I'd rather jab sharp objects into my eyes.  :)


WynnDuffy73

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #59 on: October 31, 2015, 07:24:16 AM »
$21k on a Subaru?  Whiskey Tango Foxtrot

That's not too bad especially if you drive it for 10 or more years.

rtrnow

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #60 on: October 31, 2015, 07:45:49 AM »
Not all new car purchases are so extreme or foolish.  I bought my first new car in April 2014, a Subaru Impreza hatchback.  My out-the-door price including all taxes and registration was just shy of 21k.  My previous car (a 2001 BMW 325xi) was totaled and I was given a check by the other driver's insurance company.  Knowing I had the cash on hand to buy the car outright I still took a loan at 3.8% APR for 15.5k and then aggressively paid it off over 9 months.  I've had the car for 25,000 miles and done only routine maintenance such as oil changes and air filters.  My previous car, the BMW, had nightmarish maintenance costs and more than one severely untimely breakdown.  The comfort of this reliable car that is still simple enough for me to do my own maintenance is a godsend.  While the Impreza is no luxury item, even bare bones package cars have so many features today it is incredible.

Now I loved my BMW, but now I see the merit of new car ownership.  As long as I do my own work and know the mechanical ins and out of her, she will last me a long time.  My only issue with modern cars is that they are kind of soulless.  The new Subaru is so convenient and objectively good but something is lacking.  I shift my own gears because I love driving but still needed something.  It was the car my brain wanted my heart to love.

So I did something very un-mustachian.  I bought a 1993 miata for pleasure driving and autocross.  I'm fully funding my IRA and dumping a fair amount into my 401k too.  At age 29 I'm somewhere between early and late to the FI game, but I'm making no sacrifices.  I'll say it again.  I LOVE driving.  This is something where there is no compromise.  New cars offer a lot, a lot!  Most people spend too much on them and don't appreciate that they are not assets, but liabilities.  I appreciate this.  But the joy of driving is something that makes me whole.

If you care, let me show some of my driving video that illustrate this best.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltf-RwQRkgg&list=PL0pG3tzfvpOQmCoNT3fGpR38uCC2Xrgdt

You seem to being saying the choice is old BMW or new car. How about a subie that's a couple years old? New cars are NEVER a good money move. If you want one fine, but don't try and say it's a smart buy.

SuperAntiChicken

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #61 on: October 31, 2015, 01:27:47 PM »
I did shop the used market and it's just plain bad advice for some people.  The couple-year old subie did not have the features I wanted, had 30k miles and for a whopping 2400 dollars less than new.  That new car premium was easily worth it.  Especially for something I value.

I bought the used BMW before I made FI a goal.  I bought it used with 70k on it.  While a joy to drive the maintenance was a vicious money drain.  Anyway, these are MY choices I made.  I got the vehicles I want while still achieving my savings goals.  Transportation is a real personal choice.  Driving is something I enjoy immensely.

Also, if you take a hard look at some cars on the used car market you will realize the "let someone else take the depreciation" is increasingly nonsense.  This is certainly true for economy cars.  The luxury vehicles mentioned earlier have insane markup and therefore insane instant depreciation.  The opposite is true on the other side of the spectrum.


Bateaux

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #62 on: November 01, 2015, 02:31:21 AM »
Did a really non Mustacian thing yesterday. We signed a purchase agreement on a new Subaru Outback.   Couldn't find the one we wanted on a lot in a 400 mile radius.   Have to wait 20 days for delivery.  It has every available option and the big 6 cylinder engine.   
Why are we spending so much?  I'm not really sure.  I guess it's kinda silly.  Probably the last new car we will ever buy.  Our 2008 Accord has 165k and were handing it down to our 21 year old son.  We can afford it, heck we can write a check for it without even touching investments.   We plan to work till 2018-2019 or at least I will to maintain health insurance from my employer.   The ACA  with our 22 year old and 21 year old still on my insurance just doesn't work for us yet.  Our oldest is a cancer survivor and we don't dare give up the insurance till he's no longer eligible for my employer plan.  So.  With my retirement not yet an option, we're getting a new expensive toy.  We make plenty of money, no debt, 1.325M saved plus the house paid off.  We will still max Roth IRAs and 401ks plus likely still have lots left over.
Yeah.  We buy the car.  Even Dave Ramsey would tell us to buy the car.  I'll still retire at 50 whether I buy the car or not.  By 50 well be likely approaching 2M saved whether we buy the car or not. 

paddedhat

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #63 on: November 01, 2015, 05:49:55 AM »
Please provide me some examples of these fully rebuilt 35' airstreams for 20k. It would need to be entirely gutted to have some the same reliability as a new one. All new plumbing and electrical in addition to just appliances and furnishings.

Also, where would I store things like my tool chest and mountain bikes? Right now I have a toy hauler so my trailer actually has a 12' garage, which will also be the kids room down the road.

I have looked at air streams a ton, and while they are a status symbol, they are really not much more beneficial for the cost.

  $20K  LOL. About three years ago we were shopping for another RV. We decided to take a look at older Airstreams, and actually put more than a little effort into either finding the right one, or deciding that it wasn't our best option. We found that most older units are not remodeled, or rehabbed in the least. The décor is often horrendously dated, and often quite worn. They have virtually zero storage space, and they are far from the mythical "lifetime quality" products that their fans like to believe. It was actually pretty common to find rotting floors in older units. As for a huge, fully restored unit for $20K, not likely. That kind of money buys a medium sized, 15-20 year old rig that is functional, but sorely in need of a total remodel. The other issue mentioned here is the myth that airstreams are super light, and can be towed with smaller vehicles. Maybe, but typically not. Very old airstreams were very light, as time went on, newer models gained more modern amenities, and they are currently pretty heavy. Towing a modern 35' unit with anything less that a heavy duty 3/4 ton truck isn't practical.

Our search made it clear that we have zero interest in one, for so many reasons.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 05:51:57 AM by paddedhat »

needmyfi

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #64 on: November 01, 2015, 08:08:30 AM »
Please provide me some examples of these fully rebuilt 35' airstreams for 20k. It would need to be entirely gutted to have some the same reliability as a new one. All new plumbing and electrical in addition to just appliances and furnishings.

Also, where would I store things like my tool chest and mountain bikes? Right now I have a toy hauler so my trailer actually has a 12' garage, which will also be the kids room down the road.

I have looked at air streams a ton, and while they are a status symbol, they are really not much more beneficial for the cost.

  $20K  LOL. About three years ago we were shopping for another RV. We decided to take a look at older Airstreams, and actually put more than a little effort into either finding the right one, or deciding that it wasn't our best option. We found that most older units are not remodeled, or rehabbed in the least. The décor is often horrendously dated, and often quite worn. They have virtually zero storage space, and they are far from the mythical "lifetime quality" products that their fans like to believe. It was actually pretty common to find rotting floors in older units. As for a huge, fully restored unit for $20K, not likely. That kind of money buys a medium sized, 15-20 year old rig that is functional, but sorely in need of a total remodel. The other issue mentioned here is the myth that airstreams are super light, and can be towed with smaller vehicles. Maybe, but typically not. Very old airstreams were very light, as time went on, newer models gained more modern amenities, and they are currently pretty heavy. Towing a modern 35' unit with anything less that a heavy duty 3/4 ton truck isn't practical.

Our search made it clear that we have zero interest in one, for so many reasons.

Word on the age being lighter 1960's being optimum.  Ours Weighs only 2500 lbs.  Vintage Airstreams get cheaper with size. It is counterintuitive, but it is supply and demand.  A Bambi 16 foot will be the most expensive . Dry weight on a 30' from the 60's is still under 5000 lbs

Cost of rehabbing will vary wildly depending on what you want.  If you are going to want to off grid at all then the cost Of appliances goes way up. The cost of a three way fridge, with plumbing and wiring is upwards of 2000 alone, but if you go 120 v all the way it is a couple of hundred bucks.  Again, if you just plan on full hookups you can eliminate the black water, fresh water storage tank and fresh water pump, redundant plumbing, etc.  if you want to boondock everything gets a lot more complicated.  We camp strictly in State campgrounds and avoid all the extra hassle of maintains dual systems.

Decor is another matter.  I will freely admit that my husband and I may swim against the tide.  I love the 60's vibe.  If you don,t then surely consider what a 200 dollar a square foot rehab can do for a 300 sf space.

My point was to get off of the "it has to be this way" attitude.  Think outside box.  Heavier camper needs bigger truck costs more to insure and then more for gas.  Fifth wheel means now you can,t store as much in the bed and now you need to spend more on the camper so you get the extra storage.   So it goes.  If it doesn't work for you that's cool. 

We found one through a guy who's name popped up all the time on a message board.  He is an enthusiastic hobbiest who buys and sells them all the time.  I'm pretty sure he's still active.  I live dead center in the middle of bum fuck nowhere and he lives 300 miles south of us.  The summer before last we got a knock on the door.  He asked me if I wanted to sell my Camper to him.  When I told him I bought it from him years ago he just replied"really"  and chuckled.

paddedhat

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #65 on: November 05, 2015, 07:12:04 AM »
Sounds like a pretty cool situation that you have going. My reply was more toward the claim that somebody is out there selling totally rebuilt, very large Airstreams for $20K. There may be one out there, who knows? But, it really isn't realistic to think that it's a solution for full time living, given that a full blown rehab-remodel of a rig like that easily costs 2-3X the mythical $20K, unless it's all DIY effort.  As for the practicality of full-timing in one, It's done, but not too often. We spend months on end in our inexpensive, "vacation grade" gas engined, 33' motorhome. The amount of storage space in the outside compartments alone is easily 2-3X as much as available inside and out of the largest Airstream trailers. We run into a lot of snowbirds with Airstreams, and invariably they have a campsite with a ton of stuff tucked under the parked trailer and a cap on the pick-up, also stuffed full of what would easily fit in a typical fifth wheel, or motorhome. I'll pass on that mess. IIRC, the poster, with the expensive truck and big fifth, lives in it while traveling for construction work. Somehow, after a 12 hour day of welding, or other ass busting work, I doubt the average guy is looking forward to relaxing in a cramped aluminum tube when the rest of the crew is parked nearby in three and four slide rigs with twice the floor space and ten times the storage.
 
I actually think that Airstreams can be pretty cool. They are a niche market ,and make for a pretty cool camping experience. But, having really looked at them, like most who live in their RV for extended periods, they just wouldn't work too well for me.

JLee

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #66 on: November 05, 2015, 01:59:28 PM »
What blows my mind the most are the luxury versions of the already cost-inflated trucks/SUVS.

It's like seeing a unicorn made out of poor decisions whenever one of these drives by:
Lincoln blackwood luxury truck
$56,000 MSRP (no longer sold)

Or one of these:
Toyota Landcruiser
$83,000 MSRP (competes with the Range Rover)

I wish the beloved landcruiser didn't turn into a luxury grocery cart :(

The Landcruiser is still quite capable offroad - but (almost) nobody buys them (new) for that anymore.  I do wish the 70 series would make it to the US. I might actually have a hard time saying no to buying new, if that ever happened...
http://www.toyota-global.com/showroom/vehicle_heritage/landcruiser/collection/model_70_1.html

JLee

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #67 on: November 05, 2015, 02:13:11 PM »
Ah trixr606.  Where to start.
Some back-of envelope math.  If you invested $60k  today it would likely be close to $120 k in 10 years, while in 10 years your truck will be just another 10 year old truck -mostly depreciated.  So if you drive 300 days a year for 10 years you will have paid $40 a day to drive the truck.  Add the extra insurance cost of a new, very expensive vehicle and you are up to $50 of added value to your life every time you get into your truck. 

A new truck (which will only be new for a while) doesn't sound like as much fun as 20 years of ski passes for an entire family.  Or even driving a new truck for a year, vrs.  starting out with a one year old truck and two years of ski passes for the whole family. Or a whole extra year spent working to drive a new truck.  But hey, if that's what you are into.

ps -love the fruedian typos " So because I drive a nice truck I can't be on the path to an early environment?"

Actually, your math is still wrong.

I would STILL need a truck to tow my 15,000 lbs. So the alternative to my truck would be getting a free truck so I could invest that? Please inform me how to go about that.

At best I could have gotten a used watered down truck with 50k miles for $35k. Any less than that and I'd be looking at significant miles, plus I'm not driving a Dodge, nor a ford older than 2011 due to major model failures prior, and the 7.3 ford is incapable of towing my trailer.

Not to mention, I drive 25k a year so anything with significant miles will shorten my truck life, thus costing more. I have moved 3 times in the last 18 months, each 1200+ miles, and I'm unable to tow another vehicle, nor use public transportation or bike due to my typical job site locations. Unless most of you would feel comfortable riding your bike on 10 mile stretches of 70mph 2 lane roads with minimal shoulder. No thanks, personally, and there aren't usually Rv parks any closer to the job site so often the commute is necessary.

Hey I live out in a rural area and fully understand the need for a reliable vehicle. I also have a truck just to haul a camper so I feel the love on that too. I have no idea what trucks cost so I'll assume you are right .  So it looks like your options were a 35k truck with 50k miles or a brand new truck.  Assume both would last a total of of 200,000 miles.  Then assume both trucks will sell for about $5k when they have 200,000 miles aren't reliable enough for your purposes anymore.  With a new truck you pay 55k to drive 200,000, with a used you pay 30k to drive 150,000.  If you drive 25k a year, the new truck will last 8 years and will cost $6,875/year , the used truck will last 6 years and cost 5000 a year.   Glad to hear you are getting great fuel efficiency, same truck but only 2 years older would have saved you on interest and insurance as well.  Could have saved enough for that ski lift ticket for the whole family.  At the price point of 35k lots of certified preowned options are out there if reliability is #1 priority and I seriously doubt after the new car smell is gone that you would have been able to detect much difference between the 35k and the 60k options. 

Now-lets talk about  needing such a big truck cause your 5th wheel weighs 15,000!  My Airsteam only weighs 2500, a live-in size weighs under 5000     Our-combo camper and  6 cylinder, 15 year old  truck still getting 25 mpg on trips.

Don't mean to harsh on you-you seem headed in the right direction.  The best thing I have gotten from this forum is to question everything.
A solid diesel truck will last a LOT longer than 200k. We're talking a completely different world of longevity (and resale) vs a "normal" truck.

Here's a few examples:
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/ctd/5299706373.html - 2000, 295k, $9,500
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/cto/5246313515.html - 2006, 283k, $16,500
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/ctd/5286768429.html - 2006, 291k, $16,000
http://tucson.craigslist.org/cto/5300231796.html - 2001, 307k, $13,000

Hell, here's one with 780k on it.

gimp

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #68 on: November 05, 2015, 02:28:05 PM »
The landcruiser is an interesting story.

The landcruiser, in fairly short order, completely took over the market for the range rover - that is, the market of a capable off-road but comfortable vehicle, for things like safaris, desert use, prairie use, etc etc. It was massively more reliable and massively cheaper. It's built on a real truck frame, not just a lifted and expanded sedan like most SUVs are.

However, at some point, the landcruiser actually split into two different cars. Today, you have the FJ cruiser, which is a relatively affordable car, and the land cruiser, which is an extremely expensive car, on par with the range rover (though admittedly still far more reliable and cheaper to maintain.)

So if you want to compare old landcruisers to new ones, you should compare old landcruisers to today's FJ cruisers.


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New cars are way more reliable than older cars, they use a lot less gas, they put out a lot more power. On the low end, this actually matters, because you're comparing cars with like 60 horsepower to new ones having more like 120 - 150. The difference between the two is very noticeable; you can actually get up to highway speed on an on-ramp and safely merge onto the highway, whereas on many older cars, not so much. You can do it without jamming the accelerator. You are not constantly driving it near the limits of its capabilities. You can easily get above 55, or 65, or 75, or whatever mph, and you can do it without overheating, and you can drive it at that speed pretty much indefinitely. And considering the reliability of most models, and the much longer warranties on them, you're going to be pretty much mechanically sound for 50 - 100k miles. (Electrically, stupid shit might end up costing you lots of money - avoid certain new tech like infotainment systems if you plan to keep the car for more than eight-ten years.) And as long as you get a tried-and-tested engine and transmission configuration, you're pretty much going to avoid the more costly repairs - the occasional wheel bearing, or whatever, is a lot cheaper than a cylinder losing compression or losing second gear. (With that said, I have a bias towards larger displacement, lower-revving engines when it comes to longevity.)

The resale values of modern cars reflect this. 100k used to mean the car was near death. Now you might only go down a few hundred bucks per ten thousand extra miles, because if things are working at 100k, they're probably more or less going to keep working for another 100k, with just standard maintenance and replacement of parts known to wear out / age out.

JLee

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #69 on: November 05, 2015, 02:41:55 PM »
The landcruiser is an interesting story.

The landcruiser, in fairly short order, completely took over the market for the range rover - that is, the market of a capable off-road but comfortable vehicle, for things like safaris, desert use, prairie use, etc etc. It was massively more reliable and massively cheaper. It's built on a real truck frame, not just a lifted and expanded sedan like most SUVs are.

However, at some point, the landcruiser actually split into two different cars. Today, you have the FJ cruiser, which is a relatively affordable car, and the land cruiser, which is an extremely expensive car, on par with the range rover (though admittedly still far more reliable and cheaper to maintain.)

So if you want to compare old landcruisers to new ones, you should compare old landcruisers to today's FJ cruisers.


----

New cars are way more reliable than older cars, they use a lot less gas, they put out a lot more power. On the low end, this actually matters, because you're comparing cars with like 60 horsepower to new ones having more like 120 - 150. The difference between the two is very noticeable; you can actually get up to highway speed on an on-ramp and safely merge onto the highway, whereas on many older cars, not so much. You can do it without jamming the accelerator. You are not constantly driving it near the limits of its capabilities. You can easily get above 55, or 65, or 75, or whatever mph, and you can do it without overheating, and you can drive it at that speed pretty much indefinitely. And considering the reliability of most models, and the much longer warranties on them, you're going to be pretty much mechanically sound for 50 - 100k miles. (Electrically, stupid shit might end up costing you lots of money - avoid certain new tech like infotainment systems if you plan to keep the car for more than eight-ten years.) And as long as you get a tried-and-tested engine and transmission configuration, you're pretty much going to avoid the more costly repairs - the occasional wheel bearing, or whatever, is a lot cheaper than a cylinder losing compression or losing second gear. (With that said, I have a bias towards larger displacement, lower-revving engines when it comes to longevity.)

The resale values of modern cars reflect this. 100k used to mean the car was near death. Now you might only go down a few hundred bucks per ten thousand extra miles, because if things are working at 100k, they're probably more or less going to keep working for another 100k, with just standard maintenance and replacement of parts known to wear out / age out.

A 1997 Landcruiser (the last of the 80 series) stickered at $41,188. In 1997 (so..not particularly inexpensive, but still ~25% cheaper than a current model after inflation adjustment).  It was superseded by the 100 series (which was also excellent), and then the 200 series, which is apparently capable but not many people are wheeling $80k+ trucks! ExpeditionPortal actually wrote about the fading glory of the Landcruiser here. I do hope Toyota brings back a 'proper' Landcruiser...the 70 series would be brilliant.

The FJ Cruiser is in a different class, being based on the Prado chassis (much like my GX470, which is the only way to get a Prado-equivalent in the USA). :)

Faraday

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #70 on: November 05, 2015, 02:56:31 PM »
Have spent a month at a time in the camper by choice (vacation) and three months not by choice (destroyed house).   Husband and large dog.  The three months was hell-the camper was 17' and it was the most stressful period of my life (see house destroyed above).  A 32' vintage Airsteam trailer would be totally luxe with zero depreciation, and a much smaller truck could be used to tow it. A completely overhauled one from the 60's -all new furnishings and appliances is under $20k.  All riveted aluminum, solid and stylish.  Built like a jet.   The fifth wheel really takes up your truck bed in transit -your actual living space would be the same.   To me, a fancy pants camper with the same amount of living space for less money and smaller truck to tow it would be win win win.  Your savings would be a whole lot more than $2000 a year.

hey needmyfi, can you share some details on these overhauled Airstreams? Do you have some favorite websites you check out?  I've priced the 19 ft Bambi and cheapest I can find is $35k, which is a no-go in the mustachian world.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 04:22:40 PM by Faraday »

peeps_be_peeping

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #71 on: November 05, 2015, 04:09:15 PM »
In my area used Subarus hold their value. A 1 year old used Subaru with 5,000-10,000 miles on it is the exact same price as the new one. The dealer explained to us why this is but I forget the reason. Most of the private seller used Subarus here have over 100,000 miles on them. I helped a friend shop for a car last year and that was what we found. She bought a gently used Mazda instead.




reader2580

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #72 on: November 05, 2015, 04:48:17 PM »
A friend bought a very expensive year old SUV because he gets a car allowance and mileage for work trips.  He drives thousands of miles each month for work.  His job does not require that large of vehicle although a sedan probably wouldn't work though a hatchback might.  It seems crazy to burn up a expensive vehicle with all those miles.  He could make more money with a cheaper vehicle that uses less gas.  The reimbursement is the same no matter what vehicle.

My vehicle habits are not at all mustachian by this forum's standards, but my vehicle cost 1/3 of my friend's, gets better MPG, and is a base model.

PseudoStache

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #73 on: November 05, 2015, 08:22:11 PM »
A 1 year old used Subaru with 5,000-10,000 miles on it is the exact same price as the new one. The dealer explained to us why this is but I forget the reason.

I'd say that salesman was pretty good if he/she got you to believe this.

JLee

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #74 on: November 05, 2015, 08:25:33 PM »
A 1 year old used Subaru with 5,000-10,000 miles on it is the exact same price as the new one. The dealer explained to us why this is but I forget the reason.

I'd say that salesman was pretty good if he/she got you to believe this.

I'm actually not surprised that this happens. In some states (AZ) you don't pay sales tax on private party vehicle sales, so you could save money buying a 5k mi used car at 'new' pricing.

RecoveringCarClown

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #75 on: November 05, 2015, 08:38:37 PM »
There really is no way for a mustachean to justify a new car, let alone a subaru.  If you are FIRE already and your mattress is so full of cash that you are not sleeping comfortably, I suppose you could try to argue it, but still lose.  If you are not FIRE, it is flipping ridiculous.  MMM himself calls it a trap and I agree.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/12/01/all-wheel-drive-does-not-make-you-safer/

Turnbull

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #76 on: November 05, 2015, 09:34:12 PM »
In my area used Subarus hold their value. A 1 year old used Subaru with 5,000-10,000 miles on it is the exact same price as the new one. The dealer explained to us why this is but I forget the reason.


How can this possibly happen? I hear stories like this all the time and have a hard time believing them. Why would anyone pay the new car price for a used car with 10k miles on it? Why would a seller ask the same price as a new one? Is there some scarcity of new cars down at the dealer? Every new car lot I see has hundreds of shiny new cars on it.

Turnbull

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #77 on: November 05, 2015, 09:40:36 PM »
Okay, I just saw JLee's post above so I guess that might make sense in a situation where private sales aren't taxed. How many states have that rule? In my state we pay sales tax on private party used car sales and I still hear people say crap like this all the time to justify buying new vehicles.

firewalker

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #78 on: November 05, 2015, 09:45:26 PM »
A couple years ago a CW was offered full purchase price for her to trade in her 1 yr old Chevy Traverse to buy a brand new current year Chevy Traverse.  ?????

JLee

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #79 on: November 05, 2015, 10:00:33 PM »
In my area used Subarus hold their value. A 1 year old used Subaru with 5,000-10,000 miles on it is the exact same price as the new one. The dealer explained to us why this is but I forget the reason.


How can this possibly happen? I hear stories like this all the time and have a hard time believing them. Why would anyone pay the new car price for a used car with 10k miles on it? Why would a seller ask the same price as a new one? Is there some scarcity of new cars down at the dealer? Every new car lot I see has hundreds of shiny new cars on it.

Some people are also really picky about cars, and 'any car' won't quite fit the bill. For example, try finding a Focus RS in stock at list price on release.

A couple years ago a CW was offered full purchase price for her to trade in her 1 yr old Chevy Traverse to buy a brand new current year Chevy Traverse.  ?????

haha, wtf...

Bateaux

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #80 on: November 05, 2015, 10:46:29 PM »
There really is no way for a mustachean to justify a new car, let alone a subaru.  If you are FIRE already and your mattress is so full of cash that you are not sleeping comfortably, I suppose you could try to argue it, but still lose.  If you are not FIRE, it is flipping ridiculous.  MMM himself calls it a trap and I agree.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/12/01/all-wheel-drive-does-not-make-you-safer/

I can buy the new Subaru cash without the first or second digits of our savings changing.  Not FIRE yet and cannot FIRE till my son has his own health insurance.  Cancer is expensive and even more deadly without good insurance.  Instead of a seven figure savings I'd likely be bankrupt right now if I didn't have good insurance.   I look at the work I do now as building legacy funds.

alsoknownasDean

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #81 on: November 06, 2015, 01:06:30 AM »
it is mostly the leasing deals and financing deals...I mean if we couldn't finance a car they couldn't charge as much as they do.

Imagine Car articles with just the sticker prices.

29,999
39,999
49,999

people wouldn't even look at it.  Put $0 down and 0% interest...everyone looks.

Yeah I noticed when I was in the US recently that all the car advertisements had the MSRP in the small print and the monthly (or weekly or whatever) payment in large numbers.

Here in Australia the advertisements show the actual price (I think it's a legal requirement to show the drive-away price) and new cars don't have any trouble selling.

Still, if a Corolla or similar is $20,000 and a big SUV is $50,000, surely the SUV doesn't cost 2.5x to make or develop.

peeps_be_peeping

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #82 on: November 06, 2015, 01:09:34 PM »
A 1 year old used Subaru with 5,000-10,000 miles on it is the exact same price as the new one. The dealer explained to us why this is but I forget the reason.

I'd say that salesman was pretty good if he/she got you to believe this.

Heh heh, probably!!! I was not the one shopping so I was just along for the ride (literally). The 1-year old used Subarus were being sold at the local Subaru dealer at the same price as the new ones. They were mostly loaner cars that they give to people bringing their cars in to have work done. I guess people are willing to buy the used ones at the new price. I live in Alaska and Subarus are very popular. I drive one myself. But I didn't buy it from the dealership...

RecoveringCarClown

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #83 on: November 07, 2015, 12:47:25 PM »
There really is no way for a mustachean to justify a new car, let alone a subaru.  If you are FIRE already and your mattress is so full of cash that you are not sleeping comfortably, I suppose you could try to argue it, but still lose.  If you are not FIRE, it is flipping ridiculous.  MMM himself calls it a trap and I agree.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/12/01/all-wheel-drive-does-not-make-you-safer/

I can buy the new Subaru cash without the first or second digits of our savings changing.  Not FIRE yet and cannot FIRE till my son has his own health insurance.  Cancer is expensive and even more deadly without good insurance.  Instead of a seven figure savings I'd likely be bankrupt right now if I didn't have good insurance.   I look at the work I do now as building legacy funds.

I can do the same, but instead buy a Ferrari.  That does not make it a decision that is smart/mustachean/responsible/ <-insert whatever you want here, so many choices.  I guess the part that I do not understand is that you are willing to spend $20k+ on a car, yet say that you cannot FIRE because of health insurance costs.  These costs apparently can't be paid from the cash used to buy a new car.  The logic escapes me.

randymarsh

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Re: Bizarro New Car World
« Reply #84 on: November 07, 2015, 09:06:13 PM »
A couple years ago a CW was offered full purchase price for her to trade in her 1 yr old Chevy Traverse to buy a brand new current year Chevy Traverse.  ?????

Dealers receive all kinds of incentives from the manufacturer. I've heard tiered bonus systems are common.

Sell 50 cars = $20,000 bonus
Sell 100 = $50,000 bonus

If a dealership is at 99 sold, they can buy your CW's Traverse for the 30K she paid, receive that last sale, and still come out $20,000 ahead.