Is it ever ok to own a boat?

[horsepoor]

I think comparison is a better word than analogy.  Analogy is usually used to draw similarities between two things that appear disparate on the surface. 

Power and row are two types of boats, so right away, they are are not disparate on the surface.

I think you know that horses and bikes are not the same.  However, if I want to get out on the trail, I would enjoy doing that on foot, on horseback, or on a bik.  Bikes are not so good for dressage riding though.

I also know that row boats and power boats deliver different experiences.  So I guess if you're exalting in raw power of a big internal combustion engine, you might be more likely to choose between a boat, a motor cycle and a muscle car.  If you want to get out on the water, there are more environmentally and wallet friendly ways to do it than a big power boat.  If you then want to take more time to go to the gym to make up for the exercise you didn't get on your boating excursion, more power to you.

I thought much of the point of this forum was to help people find less expensive ways to enjoy life, but apparently this thread is just for enabling a big expensive purchase.  I know this sounds hypocritical coming from a horse owner, but then, I've never come here and asked for validation of my horse ownership.

[Chris22]

So I guess if you're exalting in raw power of a big internal combustion engine, you might be more likely to choose between a boat, a motor cycle and a muscle car.

YUP!  I didn't know anyone on this forum realized some of us take enjoyment in that sort of thing!! 

[mtn]

I think comparison is a better word than analogy.  Analogy is usually used to draw similarities between two things that appear disparate on the surface. 

Power and row are two types of boats, so right away, they are are not disparate on the surface.

I think you know that horses and bikes are not the same.  However, if I want to get out on the trail, I would enjoy doing that on foot, on horseback, or on a bik.  Bikes are not so good for dressage riding though.

I also know that row boats and power boats deliver different experiences.  So I guess if you're exalting in raw power of a big internal combustion engine, you might be more likely to choose between a boat, a motor cycle and a muscle car.  If you want to get out on the water, there are more environmentally and wallet friendly ways to do it than a big power boat.  If you then want to take more time to go to the gym to make up for the exercise you didn't get on your boating excursion, more power to you.

I thought much of the point of this forum was to help people find less expensive ways to enjoy life, but apparently this thread is just for enabling a big expensive purchase.  I know this sounds hypocritical coming from a horse owner, but then, I've never come here and asked for validation of my horse ownership.

Hey, if you didn't want to get pedantic you shouldn't have brought it up in the first place. Unless your comprehension skills are so low that you couldn't figure it out. I hear that horse owners have that issue, along with people that live in Idaho. Man, you're really fighting an uphill battle, aren't you Potatomuncher?

(Jokes. All jokes. You can go ahead and facepunch me for lots of things, or call me an idiot because I live in Chicago. I'd much rather live in Idaho. And I love potatoes.)

[savingstldad]

I was actually expecting a much more negative response.  I do like the stories people have of the family bonding via boats and think this might be a great thing for my family.  I'm not looking to go 100mph zooming across lakes trying to destroy habitats and all that.  I just want to cruise out to a quiet spot and drop anchor to swim, read, fish, picnic, etc. 

I am not decided on it yet, but am just thinking about a small (20ft) pontoon boat (used) and a 10-15 year old 4Runner to pull it (or something similar).  This is very anti-mustachian, except for the part about focusing on what makes you happy.  I think this would qualify, but can't be sure.  If it proves to be something we don't use much or don't like afterward, I expect to sell the boat/vehicle and get most of my investment back. 

We've been boating with cousins and had a great time.  The kids rarely look up from their devices these days, but out on the boat it was an entirely different story.  They really came to life and it was amazing.  I can't think of anything else we've done that provided this type of entertainment or engagement from the whole family.   It's a tough call, but I was posting here to get some ideas for trying to do this in a frugal and responsible way. 

[Northwestie]

There is always a range of plateaus to look down upon your brethren.  I bike a lot so therefore I'm much more noble than my car (or boat) driving lower class neighbors ------- or so goes the tweaked logic.

It's not for me - but if you like boats and can afford it -- end of story.  Have at it.   

[Syonyk]

Point in your favour if you have a high tolerance for fixing all the things that will break.

While upside down in bilge water! :D

Marine motors can be difficult to work on if they're cranky - this is a major advantage of an outboard motor instead of an inboard.

He said that, but then he got an electric bike and then one of his latest posts is about hiring someone to do his taxes. Give him a a couple years and he'll have a motor boat....maybe a solar electric one though. ;)

Nothing wrong with the electric bikes.  Not everyone is in a position to show up everywhere sweaty, and an electric bike is a genuine car replacement for a lot of trips.

Solar electric boats... sounds familiar.  A friend ripped out the marine diesel on his sailboat (he lived on it) and put in a solar/battery/electric motor system.  He had huge amounts of storage for power, and it was less annoying than the diesel.  It think he sold the diesel for damned near what he paid for the motor & batteries.

[CanuckExpat]

I was actually expecting a much more negative response.  I do like the stories people have of the family bonding via boats and think this might be a great thing for my family.  I'm not looking to go 100mph zooming across lakes trying to destroy habitats and all that.  I just want to cruise out to a quiet spot and drop anchor to swim, read, fish, picnic, etc. 

I am not decided on it yet, but am just thinking about a small (20ft) pontoon boat (used) and a 10-15 year old 4Runner to pull it (or something similar).  This is very anti-mustachian, except for the part about focusing on what makes you happy.  I think this would qualify, but can't be sure.  If it proves to be something we don't use much or don't like afterward, I expect to sell the boat/vehicle and get most of my investment back. 

We've been boating with cousins and had a great time.  The kids rarely look up from their devices these days, but out on the boat it was an entirely different story.  They really came to life and it was amazing.  I can't think of anything else we've done that provided this type of entertainment or engagement from the whole family.   It's a tough call, but I was posting here to get some ideas for trying to do this in a frugal and responsible way.

For another, or similar take, you might also check out the opinion here: King for Just One Day

I was giving you a hard time, and it was partly facetious. It sounds like you have given this a lot of consideration and I hope it works out well for you.

I think people here were encourage you to consider non motorized boats because they are a lot of fun and reduce a lot of the externalities of motored vehicles that are so annoying for the non user.

I love being out on the water, I get that. It's a bit more annoying when you have to put up with the noise from someone elses motor, or the people speeding around like idiots ripping up a wake. There are public beaches I've been to that have created parking lots specifically for boat trailers: talk about externalities, they are paving over and reserving perfectly good beachfront so someone can have free parking for their boat transport machine!

I'll step off the high horse now, and hopefully you've considered over all the options.

[Le Poisson]

I was actually expecting a much more negative response.  I do like the stories people have of the family bonding via boats and think this might be a great thing for my family.  I'm not looking to go 100mph zooming across lakes trying to destroy habitats and all that.  I just want to cruise out to a quiet spot and drop anchor to swim, read, fish, picnic, etc. 

I am not decided on it yet, but am just thinking about a small (20ft) pontoon boat (used) and a 10-15 year old 4Runner to pull it (or something similar).  This is very anti-mustachian, except for the part about focusing on what makes you happy.  I think this would qualify, but can't be sure.  If it proves to be something we don't use much or don't like afterward, I expect to sell the boat/vehicle and get most of my investment back. 

We've been boating with cousins and had a great time.  The kids rarely look up from their devices these days, but out on the boat it was an entirely different story.  They really came to life and it was amazing.  I can't think of anything else we've done that provided this type of entertainment or engagement from the whole family.   It's a tough call, but I was posting here to get some ideas for trying to do this in a frugal and responsible way.

For another, or similar take, you might also check out the opinion here: King for Just One Day

I was giving you a hard time, and it was partly facetious. It sounds like you have given this a lot of consideration and I hope it works out well for you.

I think people here were encourage you to consider non motorized boats because they are a lot of fun and reduce a lot of the externalities of motored vehicles that are so annoying for the non user.

I love being out on the water, I get that. It's a bit more annoying when you have to put up with the noise from someone elses motor, or the people speeding around like idiots ripping up a wake. There are public beaches I've been to that have created parking lots specifically for boat trailers: talk about externalities, they are paving over and reserving perfectly good beachfront so someone can have free parking for their boat transport machine!

I'll step off the high horse now, and hopefully you've considered over all the options.

Thanks Expat - I hadn't read that one yet. Good article.

[Chris22]

"As you can see, most of the fun happens right at the beginning. When I bought myself a really fast motorcycle back in 2001, the best riding experience was the first day I took it up into the mountains"

See, I think he's a little off.  I've owned my sports car for 9 years almost to the day, and take little road trips and such all the time, and it's special to me every time I take it out of the garage. 

Take it a different way: is having, uh, "relations" with your spouse no longer special because the first one was the best one so you don't need to bother doing it anymore?  Yeah, didn't think so. 

[Midwest]

Marine motors can be difficult to work on if they're cranky - this is a major advantage of an outboard motor instead of an inboard.

As a lifelong boat owner, I disagree.  I've found inboards much easier to maintain than outboards.

To the OP - If you want a boat and can afford a boat that you will use, why not?   I think this website is about thoughtful spending.  Love my boat.  We put 100 hours a year on our boat.  If I work another year or 2 to enjoy that so be it. 

On the thoughtful experience side, I get the same pleasure out of my $10k boat that my friends get from their $50k boat.  We may buy a new boat eventually....for cash.  Don't get sucked into the monthly payment trap.  Buy a used boat that someone else didn't use. 

Lastly, to those professing canoes/kayaks, tough to waterski or wakeboard behind those.  I have a kayak too btw.

[Le Poisson]

Take it a different way: is having, uh, "relations" with your spouse no longer special because the first one was the best one so you don't need to bother doing it anymore?  Yeah, didn't think so.

No wonder all the hookers are out of business and divorce lawyers are shuttering their offices.

[crentist]

Brand new to the threads...  Anyways I have owned a ski boat the last couple of years.  In my experience it's a great way to bond with family and friends.  If you enjoy water sports, I think best bang for your buck is a well researched 10K INBOARD ski boat.  They don't depreciate and easy to maintain.  I actually enjoy the maintenance because I get so much enjoyment from being on the water.

[CanuckExpat]

Lastly, to those professing canoes/kayaks, tough to waterski or wakeboard behind those.  I have a kayak too btw.

O Ye, of little fath: https://youtu.be/OMMc0FoOwEA?t=256

[MoonShadow]

Is it ever ok to own a boat as a mustachian wannabe?

If you are planning on selling the house & moving onto it, yes.

What type of vehicle would be ideal for someone like me to pull a 3500-4000lb boat if I get one?

A 15 hp outboard, at the high end.  A 9.9 hp would be more mustachian.

[Midwest]

Lastly, to those professing canoes/kayaks, tough to waterski or wakeboard behind those.  I have a kayak too btw.

O Ye, of little fath: https://youtu.be/OMMc0FoOwEA?t=256

LOL.  Let's see him barefoot behind that.

[couponvan]

Our Honda Odyssey minivan tows a 20' Hurricane deck boat (deck/pontoon top and ski boat bottom) just fine. We're also not in hilly country, and we don't tow it very far. Try to think about where you can store the boat in winter if you are in Missouri - winter storage is expensive. There are hitches which the tongue folds up so you can fit it in the garage normally. Ours has to angle and is the only thing that fits in the 2 car. Our friends' 19' boat used to winter in the garage and did not require the angle.

Winterizing at a marine shop is $150. Doing it yourself is less than $20. Storing outside likely would = mice.

[Fishindude]

You mention a wave runner also.
Word of caution on those.  They drink gas like it's going out of style and insurance on them is expensive.

I think you would be better served getting enough HP on the pontoon to ski and tube.  Plus that's one less piece to maintain, store, license and insure.

[mtn]

You mention a wave runner also.
Word of caution on those.  They drink gas like it's going out of style and insurance on them is expensive.

I think you would be better served getting enough HP on the pontoon to ski and tube.  Plus that's one less piece to maintain, store, license and insure.

The newer ones aren't as bad on the gas, nor as loud. Insurance is usually higher, that is correct.

We (extended family) has them. I love them. I wouldn't ride it on a populated lake; where we go we're usually the only ones out there.

[Gone Fishing]

What do you drive now?  What are docking fees compared to the insurance, taxes, registration, maintenance, extra gas and insurance on a 4 Runner?  The tow vehicle could potentially cost more than the boat itself.  Be careful!  The thought of purchasing a vehicle just to tow a boat makes me cringe.

We live 15 minutes from a beautiful lake and 10 minutes from an very nice class 1-2 river.  Our nicest spring and fall weekends get filled quickly.  Realistically, we get on the water 3-4 times a year (but hoping to do more once retired!). 

As others have, I suggest starting small with a used kayak(s) or canoe(s).  They can be found cheap on craigslist and sold later for nearly the same or even more a few years later.  If you truly find yourself on the water as much as you think you will, only then upgrade. When you do upgrade, do it slowly, maybe every 5-10 years, and enjoy the process.  This will allow for waning interest which may happen after the first year or two on the water.  Yes, you can get efficient at it, but loading everything up, driving to the lake, launching, recovering, drying everything out, covering, annual maintenance, etc. does involve some level of hassle.  After the initial year or two you might decide it just not worth the effort.  Don't find this out after investing tens of thousands in a boat and tow vehicle. 

Also, you didn't mention the age of your children.  But if they are young, they may be pre-sports and other activities.  If so, you may feel like you have tons of free time on the weekends, but once they start participating in these types of activities time gets shorter and boating is not typically something you do for an hour or two when you have to tow.  Generally, you need the majority of the day. Just something to think about.           

[Chris22]

Yeah, the wave runner is WAY more fun than the boat if you're by yourself, and much easier to deal with (put in/out of the water, dock, etc).  But it's hard to drop anchor in the middle of the lake with a cooler full of beer on a waverunner.  We do it on the boat, and occasionally someone will come out via waverunner with a fresh cooler strapped to the back.  Life is good.

[adam]

If you get a lighter weight fiberglass boat you might be able to tow it with a car/minivan. 

I ran the numbers.  Back in 2010 I bought a 2002 19ft center console with a 115 2 stroke outboard.  Every single expense for this boat has been tracked in Mint.  The fixes, the new trailer ($2k!), the fuel, the safety equipment, the storage fees when we lived in beaufort, the 3 months we put it at the marina, the fishing gear we've purchased since then, the private landing we pay for occasionally, etc, etc.  It does not include purchase price ($7500).  I did take a small loan out for it but paid it within a year. 

$12,000.

Since we're just getting into 2016 lets call that 5 years.  $12,000 / 5 years = $2,400 a year.

I live in a temperate climate and can go out just about 365 days a year.  Lets be conservative and say I went out 52 days. (In actuality its likely 60+).  A day is defined as a min of 4 hours and a max of ~10.  Usually its about 8.

$2,400/year / 52 days/year = $46 a day. ($11.50/hr - $4.60/hr depending on length of 'day')

Your mileage may vary, but I find it to be worth every penny.

If I had to go back, knowing what I know now... I'd probably look for a sub $5k 17ft center console with a ~90hp 2 stroke.  Simply because it isn't that much smaller but it is enough of a difference in price to be willing to give up that space.  We rarely have more than 3-4 people on the 19 footer (max 6), and thats about the max you'd want on a 17ft.

[Chris22]

As others have, I suggest starting small with a used kayak(s) or canoe(s)...If you truly find yourself on the water as much as you think you will, only then upgrade.

That's like saying "if you want a car, buy a skateboard and if you use it a lot upgrade to a car."

A canoe and a kayak is nothing like a powerboat or large sailboat and usage patterns will be wildly different.

I'd say start with a used boat (PLENTY of <$10k <20' boats) and if you feel the need to buy new after that go ahead. 

[Le Poisson]

If you get a lighter weight fiberglass boat you might be able to tow it with a car/minivan. 

I ran the numbers.  Back in 2010 I bought a 2002 19ft center console with a 115 2 stroke outboard.  Every single expense for this boat has been tracked in Mint.  The fixes, the new trailer ($2k!), the fuel, the safety equipment, the storage fees when we lived in beaufort, the 3 months we put it at the marina, the fishing gear we've purchased since then, the private landing we pay for occasionally, etc, etc.  It does not include purchase price ($7500).  I did take a small loan out for it but paid it within a year. 

$12,000.

Since we're just getting into 2016 lets call that 5 years.  $12,000 / 5 years = $2,400 a year.

I live in a temperate climate and can go out just about 365 days a year.  Lets be conservative and say I went out 52 days. (In actuality its likely 60+).  A day is defined as a min of 4 hours and a max of ~10.  Usually its about 8.

$2,400/year / 52 days/year = $46 a day. ($11.50/hr - $4.60/hr depending on length of 'day')

Your mileage may vary, but I find it to be worth every penny.

If I had to go back, knowing what I know now... I'd probably look for a sub $5k 17ft center console with a ~90hp 2 stroke.  Simply because it isn't that much smaller but it is enough of a difference in price to be willing to give up that space.  We rarely have more than 3-4 people on the 19 footer (max 6), and thats about the max you'd want on a 17ft.

A lot of people on this forum live off of a lot less than $46.00 per day. This is not the enabling luxury spending forum, this is the frugal living forum.

Invested at 6% your $7500, plus 2,000 per year as an annual installment would now be $25,000.

[adam]

If you get a lighter weight fiberglass boat you might be able to tow it with a car/minivan. 

I ran the numbers.  Back in 2010 I bought a 2002 19ft center console with a 115 2 stroke outboard.  Every single expense for this boat has been tracked in Mint.  The fixes, the new trailer ($2k!), the fuel, the safety equipment, the storage fees when we lived in beaufort, the 3 months we put it at the marina, the fishing gear we've purchased since then, the private landing we pay for occasionally, etc, etc.  It does not include purchase price ($7500).  I did take a small loan out for it but paid it within a year. 

$12,000.

Since we're just getting into 2016 lets call that 5 years.  $12,000 / 5 years = $2,400 a year.

I live in a temperate climate and can go out just about 365 days a year.  Lets be conservative and say I went out 52 days. (In actuality its likely 60+).  A day is defined as a min of 4 hours and a max of ~10.  Usually its about 8.

$2,400/year / 52 days/year = $46 a day. ($11.50/hr - $4.60/hr depending on length of 'day')

Your mileage may vary, but I find it to be worth every penny.

If I had to go back, knowing what I know now... I'd probably look for a sub $5k 17ft center console with a ~90hp 2 stroke.  Simply because it isn't that much smaller but it is enough of a difference in price to be willing to give up that space.  We rarely have more than 3-4 people on the 19 footer (max 6), and thats about the max you'd want on a 17ft.

A lot of people on this forum live off of a lot less than $46.00 per day. This is not the enabling luxury spending forum, this is the frugal living forum.

I find it hard to believe that a lot of people here live on less than $16,790 per year.

Regardless, you're missing the point.  That's $46 for a day on the boat.  For 8-10 hours of entertainment for ~4 people.

I would suggest that many Americans pay more than $2,400/year to operate their primary vehicle, which isn't nearly as fun.

[adam]

Invested at 6% your $7500, plus 2,000 per year as an annual installment would now be $25,000.

And I'd take that $25,000 and spend it on a boat.

[Chris22]

Regardless, you're missing the point.  That's $46 for a day on the boat.  For 8-10 hours of entertainment for ~4 people.

Which is about the same it costs for 4 people to go see a night time movie.  Without snacks, for 2 hours.  I'd rather be on the boat.

What's the saying, "he who knows the cost of everything knows the value of nothing."  There are a lot of people here who are all for the idea of "spend money only on what makes you happy" as long as what makes you happy is gardening, walking to the park, riding a bike, or going to the library.  They don't understand that what makes OTHER people happy is things like going on a boat.  And we're not even talking about an extravagant boat, just a boat.  Why is it so hard to accept that to some people, that makes them just as happy as it makes others to ride a bike or knit a blanket or cook something or jack it to a bank balance or what have you?

That's sort of the problem with this place sometimes.  The theoretical goal is to "optimize", but some people here can't tell the difference between the guy who buys a $7500 boat, knows what it costs him, and willingly pays it because it makes him happy, and the guy who buys a $75,000 boat, never uses it, and bitches about having no money.  Seems like there is a vocal contingent who wants everyone to "optimize" right into whatever makes they themselves happy, instead of helping someone who actually wants a boat do it as efficiently as possible. 

[Midwest]

A lot of people on this forum live off of a lot less than $46.00 per day. This is not the enabling luxury spending forum, this is the frugal living forum.

Invested at 6% your $7500, plus 2,000 per year as an annual installment would now be $25,000.

I've never thought of this as the frugality website.  Efficiency and conscious decision making yes, but not frugality.

Owning a boat that you paid cash for and use frequently is a far cry from taking a 15 year loan out and letting it sit in your driveway.  I'm passionate about boating and use it 100+ days a year.  Boat is 15+ years old and not depreciating at an appreciable pace.  Newest car is a 2008. 

My wife and I make conscious decisions about our spending.  Boating is part of the spending we are willing to make. 

[adam]

Plus I have a freezer full of fish.  I didn't factor the cost of meat into this.

And I routinely am able to harvest fresh oysters, shrimp, and crabs. 

I consider that just a side benefit though.

[Gone Fishing]

As others have, I suggest starting small with a used kayak(s) or canoe(s)...If you truly find yourself on the water as much as you think you will, only then upgrade.

That's like saying "if you want a car, buy a skateboard and if you use it a lot upgrade to a car."

A canoe and a kayak is nothing like a powerboat or large sailboat and usage patterns will be wildly different.

I'd say start with a used boat (PLENTY of <$10k <20' boats) and if you feel the need to buy new after that go ahead.

Have you seen how happy people are at the skate park?

We get it.  You love your lake house, your jet ski, your sports car, and your boat and can't see yourself ever being happy in a slow moving, quiet, muscle powered watercraft.  The OP is suggesting buying not only a boat but another vehicle to pull it.  The proposed combination of the two will not only be a large upfront expense, but also an ongoing expense that could end up costing him much more than the initial cost over the long run.  The canoe/kayak option is so cheap, there is very little risk in trying it first before he leaps to the $20k option.  Perhaps, just maybe, he WILL be satisfied with the inexpensive, quiet, relaxing, body enhancing option.  If so, he just shaved many months off his working career and/or freed up a ton of cash for something else that also interests him.

If he is absolutely convinced that no muscle powered water craft could ever make him happy, other Mustachian options could  include purchasing a tired old pontoon (that he can tow with his (existing vehicle) for near scrap prices, doing the bare minimum to make it reliable (himself) and getting 90% of the experience for less than half the cost.  I hope he is pleased with whatever decision he makes.         

[GuitarStv]

Regardless, you're missing the point.  That's $46 for a day on the boat.  For 8-10 hours of entertainment for ~4 people.

Which is about the same it costs for 4 people to go see a night time movie.  Without snacks, for 2 hours.  I'd rather be on the boat.

What's the saying, "he who knows the cost of everything knows the value of nothing."  There are a lot of people here who are all for the idea of "spend money only on what makes you happy" as long as what makes you happy is gardening, walking to the park, riding a bike, or going to the library.  They don't understand that what makes OTHER people happy is things like going on a boat.  And we're not even talking about an extravagant boat, just a boat.  Why is it so hard to accept that to some people, that makes them just as happy as it makes others to ride a bike or knit a blanket or cook something or jack it to a bank balance or what have you?

That's sort of the problem with this place sometimes.  The theoretical goal is to "optimize", but some people here can't tell the difference between the guy who buys a $7500 boat, knows what it costs him, and willingly pays it because it makes him happy, and the guy who buys a $75,000 boat, never uses it, and bitches about having no money.  Seems like there is a vocal contingent who wants everyone to "optimize" right into whatever makes they themselves happy, instead of helping someone who actually wants a boat do it as efficiently as possible.

Many of the people on this forum prioritize minimizing your ecological footprint, and find it difficult to understand how deafening others on a lake while burning fossil fuels and getting no exercise is preferable to something that's less intrusive on others that improves your body.

Then there's also the less tangible benefits of the freedom from desire.  This link gives pretty good reasoning why just because you can afford it and think you want it, it doesn't mean that you should rush out and get it:
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/09/18/is-it-convenient-would-i-enjoy-it-wrong-question/

[Fishindude]

Good thread !
I liked this comment when someone advocated a kayak or row boat ..... That's like saying "if you want a car, buy a skateboard and if you use it a lot upgrade to a car."

Regarding the wave runners, I've ridden them a lot.  I find it about like somebody taking you for a ride in their Corvette.   Yeah, it's cool and fun for a little bit, but after an hour of it I'm done.   And even the new ones drink a lot of gas,   I've got the perfect place for a couple of them, and I'm not buying any.

There are some really sweet deals out there on used boats.  I bought a super nice fishing boat last year, 2011 Lund 1775 Impact with a 115 HP Merc and all the bells and whistles for $20,000.   Some dude was in bad shape selling it on Craigslist, said he bought it at the boat sport & travel show brand new.   Found his paperwork in the glove box and he had paid over $30,000 for it and hardly even used it, looks like a new one.

[adam]

As others have, I suggest starting small with a used kayak(s) or canoe(s)...If you truly find yourself on the water as much as you think you will, only then upgrade.

That's like saying "if you want a car, buy a skateboard and if you use it a lot upgrade to a car."

A canoe and a kayak is nothing like a powerboat or large sailboat and usage patterns will be wildly different.

I'd say start with a used boat (PLENTY of <$10k <20' boats) and if you feel the need to buy new after that go ahead.

Have you seen how happy people are at the skate park?

We get it.  You love your lake house, your jet ski, your sports car, and your boat and can't see yourself ever being happy in a slow moving, quiet, muscle powered watercraft.  The OP is suggesting buying not only a boat but another vehicle to pull it.  The proposed combination of the two will not only be a large upfront expense, but also an ongoing expense that could end up costing him much more than the initial cost over the long run.  The canoe/kayak option is so cheap, there is very little risk in trying it first before he leaps to the $20k option.  Perhaps, just maybe, he WILL be satisfied with the inexpensive, quiet, relaxing, body enhancing option.  If so, he just shaved many months off his working career and/or freed up a ton of cash for something else that also interests him.

If he is absolutely convinced that no muscle powered water craft could ever make him happy, other Mustachian options could  include purchasing a tired old pontoon (that he can tow with his (existing vehicle) for near scrap prices, doing the bare minimum to make it reliable (himself) and getting 90% of the experience for less than half the cost.  I hope he is pleased with whatever decision he makes.         

We own two cheap kayaks as well as the power boat.  They are completely different experiences.

OP said wife and kids, so minimum of 4 kayaks, for example.  Based on my experience thats going to be a minumum of $1200 before you get paddles and safety gear.  And you're not hanging out on a kayak comfortable for hours at a time.  And they're not all that easy to transport.  You're not putting 4 kayaks in your Honda fit, hell even carrying them in a full sized pickup would be a challenge.  So maybe you have to buy a special trailer for them as well, which gets you right back to needing a tow vehicle (granted it wouldn't weigh as much as a full sized boat)

So maybe you look at a canoe.  Much more expensive than a kayak, but maybe you can get 1 instead of 4.  Still not going to be very comfortable for 4 people for hours at a time.  Still not going to be any easier to transport.

My wife and I absolutely love having kayaks.  They simply do not offer the same thing as the boat.

[Fishindude]

Ever contemplate that folks floating around in kayaks or canoes advocating less fossil fuel use are actually floating in crafts fully constructed of fossil fuels?

[mtn]

Regardless, you're missing the point.  That's $46 for a day on the boat.  For 8-10 hours of entertainment for ~4 people.

Which is about the same it costs for 4 people to go see a night time movie.  Without snacks, for 2 hours.  I'd rather be on the boat.

What's the saying, "he who knows the cost of everything knows the value of nothing."  There are a lot of people here who are all for the idea of "spend money only on what makes you happy" as long as what makes you happy is gardening, walking to the park, riding a bike, or going to the library.  They don't understand that what makes OTHER people happy is things like going on a boat.  And we're not even talking about an extravagant boat, just a boat.  Why is it so hard to accept that to some people, that makes them just as happy as it makes others to ride a bike or knit a blanket or cook something or jack it to a bank balance or what have you?

That's sort of the problem with this place sometimes.  The theoretical goal is to "optimize", but some people here can't tell the difference between the guy who buys a $7500 boat, knows what it costs him, and willingly pays it because it makes him happy, and the guy who buys a $75,000 boat, never uses it, and bitches about having no money.  Seems like there is a vocal contingent who wants everyone to "optimize" right into whatever makes they themselves happy, instead of helping someone who actually wants a boat do it as efficiently as possible.

Many of the people on this forum prioritize minimizing your ecological footprint, and find it difficult to understand how deafening others on a lake while burning fossil fuels and getting no exercise is preferable to something that's less intrusive on others that improves your body.

Then there's also the less tangible benefits of the freedom from desire.  This link gives pretty good reasoning why just because you can afford it and think you want it, it doesn't mean that you should rush out and get it:
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/09/18/is-it-convenient-would-i-enjoy-it-wrong-question/

"Deafening others"... Lol. Methinks you haven't been out on a boat much. It usually isn't full throttle for very long; if it is you're going somewhere on fairly big water. Otherwise it is usually drive to the middle of the lake or spot on the river, anchor, and fish or swim. When we troll--so using power for an extended period of time--we're using our electric engine (or drift sock). Waterskiing? Sure. But that would be on a lake where waterskiing and jetskiing are common occurrence, so the noise pollution isn't really an issue.

[adam]

Ever contemplate that folks floating around in kayaks or canoes advocating less fossil fuel use are actually floating in crafts fully constructed of fossil fuels?

Oh I was thinking about it, but I didn't really want to turn this into an argument about the environment.

To be honest, I wish my outboard was a lot more efficient/clean than it is.  There are cleaner options, but they cost money. And I couldn't afford those options.

[Sweetloveginger]

There are other ways to get a boat than buying/renting. My husband and I share a motor boat with my dad and grandpa, it's a fishing boat, but with 3 families splitting the costs it really helps, and the thing gets used more. I also assume we do more fishing than most since we live within 1 mile of 2 lakes.

We also offered to store a sail boat for a friend in the military, the rent is letting us use it whenever we want while he's gone.

[LouLou]

Here is my personal view on boats:

Mustachian: Freecycle a kayak or canoe that will you enjoy regularly.  Maybe buy used on craigslist or get from a yard sale.

Antimustachian: Finance a brand new fancy boat that you rarely use and don't know how to fix, paid for by working a job you hate forever

Don't be antimustachian.  You will be miserable. These are the people who are only enjoy their boats when the boat is bought and sold.

I'd like to think that we are semi-mustachian.  We have a boat that was 20+ years old when we paid cash for it. Our previous boat was 30+ years old when it finally died for good. We get excellent bonding with friends and family with it.  The life jackets and whatnot we inherited from other people who don't need them anymore.  When we take friends/family, they will cover the other costs for the weekend (like they pay for all the food).  When we go by ourselves, we just eat sandwiches and other cheap foods.  We enjoy watersports that are not possible on a kayak/canoe. DH likes going out on the water with it, even in cooler weather (40s and 50s).  Ultimately, it is one of the great joys of our lives.

I don't think it's mustachian, but I'm okay with that.

[chemistk]

Thanks again for all the replies.  I'm saying 3500-4000lb's because I see big variances in weight on these boats, but I'm really looking for about a 20 foot pontoon, whatever that weights.  I'm going to need a vehicle to pull it, so I'm saying 3500-4000 so I don't end up with something that can't pull one of these boats.

The other consideration is I have this lake very close by, the ramp to put in a boat is maybe 2 miles away.  I also have a giant lake about 2 hours drive away where I have cousins/aunts/uncles and I'd like to be able to take it there as well to hang out with them.  This is in Missouri, so some hills but no mountains to climb or anything.

You don't necessarily need a truck to pull a 20 foot pontoon. You're about right in what you'll be towing weight-wise, so even with the family in the car you shouldn't need anything bigger than a 4000 pound tow rating.

If it's something that you and your family decide you will enjoy and get a lot of use out of, I would suggest looking for something used and with a smaller HP motor. You won't be pulling any tubes or skis but you'll be saving on fuel and still have a good time with the family.

Like others said, just be sure it's something you really want in your life and that you won't find burdensome after a couple years.

[Chris22]

Like others said, just be sure it's something you really want in your life and that you won't find burdensome after a couple years.

Meh, something bought used for a decent price won't depreciate much.  Buying a boat for $8k and using it for a couple years (say $1k/yr on the high end) and then selling it for $7k isn't the end of the world. 

[Chris22]

Regardless, you're missing the point.  That's $46 for a day on the boat.  For 8-10 hours of entertainment for ~4 people.

Which is about the same it costs for 4 people to go see a night time movie.  Without snacks, for 2 hours.  I'd rather be on the boat.

What's the saying, "he who knows the cost of everything knows the value of nothing."  There are a lot of people here who are all for the idea of "spend money only on what makes you happy" as long as what makes you happy is gardening, walking to the park, riding a bike, or going to the library.  They don't understand that what makes OTHER people happy is things like going on a boat.  And we're not even talking about an extravagant boat, just a boat.  Why is it so hard to accept that to some people, that makes them just as happy as it makes others to ride a bike or knit a blanket or cook something or jack it to a bank balance or what have you?

That's sort of the problem with this place sometimes.  The theoretical goal is to "optimize", but some people here can't tell the difference between the guy who buys a $7500 boat, knows what it costs him, and willingly pays it because it makes him happy, and the guy who buys a $75,000 boat, never uses it, and bitches about having no money.  Seems like there is a vocal contingent who wants everyone to "optimize" right into whatever makes they themselves happy, instead of helping someone who actually wants a boat do it as efficiently as possible.

Many of the people on this forum prioritize minimizing your ecological footprint, and find it difficult to understand how deafening others on a lake while burning fossil fuels and getting no exercise is preferable to something that's less intrusive on others that improves your body.

So you assume that is universal to everyone and everyone should have the same priorities?  "Hey, I want to buy a boat" "No, you don't" "What?" "It will not make you happy" "Umm...okay?"

[Kaydedid]

DH has a small fishing boat. Purchase price was around $750 (with motor and trailer). 

Pluses:
Light enough to be pulled by current car (camry)
Only needs 1 person to launch
Can hold 3-4 people
Can be stored in the backyard for winter (upside-down) with motor in the basement
Maintenance costs are minimal (DH is an industrial mechanic, does all his own small engine work)
When DH goes out, he actually relaxes, instead of diving into new projects like at home
Makes it easier for DH to invite friends over, which is tough for him

Minuses:
Not used much-have to twist his arm sometimes to make him go
Ongoing licensing fee
Time needed to winterize and de-winterize

Overall, not the most frugal purchase, but not terrible either. 

[GuitarStv]

Regardless, you're missing the point.  That's $46 for a day on the boat.  For 8-10 hours of entertainment for ~4 people.

Which is about the same it costs for 4 people to go see a night time movie.  Without snacks, for 2 hours.  I'd rather be on the boat.

What's the saying, "he who knows the cost of everything knows the value of nothing."  There are a lot of people here who are all for the idea of "spend money only on what makes you happy" as long as what makes you happy is gardening, walking to the park, riding a bike, or going to the library.  They don't understand that what makes OTHER people happy is things like going on a boat.  And we're not even talking about an extravagant boat, just a boat.  Why is it so hard to accept that to some people, that makes them just as happy as it makes others to ride a bike or knit a blanket or cook something or jack it to a bank balance or what have you?

That's sort of the problem with this place sometimes.  The theoretical goal is to "optimize", but some people here can't tell the difference between the guy who buys a $7500 boat, knows what it costs him, and willingly pays it because it makes him happy, and the guy who buys a $75,000 boat, never uses it, and bitches about having no money.  Seems like there is a vocal contingent who wants everyone to "optimize" right into whatever makes they themselves happy, instead of helping someone who actually wants a boat do it as efficiently as possible.

Many of the people on this forum prioritize minimizing your ecological footprint, and find it difficult to understand how deafening others on a lake while burning fossil fuels and getting no exercise is preferable to something that's less intrusive on others that improves your body.

So you assume that is universal to everyone and everyone should have the same priorities?  "Hey, I want to buy a boat" "No, you don't" "What?" "It will not make you happy" "Umm...okay?"

You misread the original post.

"Is it ever ok to own a boat as a mustachian wannabe?" != "Hey, I want to buy a boat"

[mak1277]

DH has a small fishing boat. Purchase price was around $750 (with motor and trailer). 

Minuses:
Not used much-have to twist his arm sometimes to make him go

OT, but I need to find ways to sucker convince my wife to twist my arm to go fishing.

[lakemom]

I only read the first page...so here's my take....
We live on a channel with a short ride to an all sports lake (so we own 5 boats! kayak, canoe, rowboat w/ 9.9, inboard ski boat and pontoon) and we (dh and/or I or one or more of the children old enough to drive them) are on the water 4-7 days per week all summer.  Not all day every day but at least a quick swim or a sunset cruise.  That said, a couple of years ago when we had a drought and had to pull our inboard (mouth of channel too shallow to exit) we used it 'maybe' 1X per week in the heat of the summer because the hassle of trailering was just not worth it (we didn't have the pontoon yet)!  We'd go out for a quick spin in the fishing boat but drive (3 blocks either direction to public launches) to the launch and all that entailed....just took too much of the fun and relaxation of boating away for us.  So keep in mind that it may not be as carefree and fun as you are envisioning. 

How old are your kids?  Are you sure they love the lake as much as you think they do?  My youngest (born after we moved to the water so exposed literally her entire life) HATED swimming in the lake until the end of last summer (she just turned 9).  She's a great swimmer and loved swimming in pools and at the beach where she could touch but take her out on the lake and she'd freak out. 

Before buying I'd try and spend several days out on the water in different types of boats (borrowed, rented, with friends, however you can do it) to see IF and what you like to do on the water.  Finally, make sure you know how to ACCURATELY back a trailer and launch/recover a boat before hitting the launch for the first time.  Nothing pisses experienced boaters off as much as yoyo's at the launch (says the lady who STILL after 15 years can't back a boat down the ramp on the first try...usually make dh do it).

[mtn]

^^^ That is a very good point. Back before we got our boat and were using grandpas only, we launched 1x per trip, and got it out 1x per trip, and then left it moored in front of his place. Back then, we thought that trailering a boat was the worst thing ever. It still can be horrible depending on the launch. But we now mostly go to a launch that there are never more than 4 people there for 2 bays at once, and it is usually only us there. Plenty of ample parking (next to an industrial park, so it isn't like they paved over prairie). After about the first year, we got to be good at it. If I am by myself, it is about a 7 minute process on either end. If it is me and one or both of my brothers, it is about a 3-4 minute process. If my dad or wife is there AND involved in the launch, it takes much longer (10-15 minutes), but that is a different story :P.

Learn how to back a trailer. It will save you a LOT of stress on the ramp. I can't tell you how to do it since it came naturally for me, but go slowly, make minor inputs, and practice practice practice. I recommend finding a large open parking lot and setting up cones.

[adam]

The hassle of trailering is real.

If you get easily flustered this could be enough to make you not want a boat.

Or you could practice and become proficient at it to the point where you don't really worry about any fiasco happening because of something you did.  Thats when you just have to worry about everyone else, who is not as awesome as you are.

[MoonShadow]

Many of the people on this forum prioritize minimizing your ecological footprint, and find it difficult to understand how deafening others on a lake while burning fossil fuels and getting no exercise is preferable to something that's less intrusive on others that improves your body.

GuitarStv, there are these nifty boats these days.  One type is called a sailboat, and the other a kayak.  Both involve some human exercise to one degree or another, and neither involve an internal combustion engine! 

[GuitarStv]

Many of the people on this forum prioritize minimizing your ecological footprint, and find it difficult to understand how deafening others on a lake while burning fossil fuels and getting no exercise is preferable to something that's less intrusive on others that improves your body.

GuitarStv, there are these nifty boats these days.  One type is called a sailboat, and the other a kayak.  Both involve some human exercise to one degree or another, and neither involve an internal combustion engine!

That is what I suggested in my first post.

[GreenSheep]

I have a boat! It's a 37 pound, 8 foot long, 51 gallon whitewater kayak that I can carry around and paddle with my own two arms.

However, before I climb onto a soap box, the old "a boat is a hole in the water into which you pour money" still holds true to some degree. You have to have the right gear and you have to be able to get to a river. I also don't love the fact that it's made of plastic, but I don't think a wooden kayak would hold up to whitewater (although they are gorgeous).

As hobbies go, though, I still think it's toward the Mustachian end of the scale. I'd also be very interested to see a comparison of the average fossil fuel use over the life of a motorized boat compared with the fossil fuel required to make a kayak. Maybe I'm way off, but I suspect that the latter would be lower. Zero would still be better, though.

As others have noted, I don't think it's wrong to get a boat (of whatever type) if you can afford it and if it brings you more joy than anything else that same amount of money would buy (or more joy than the same amount of time required to earn that money). It's a tough prediction to make, though, so the suggestions about trying it out first are good ones.

[Northwestie]

IMO - kayaks fit into a minimalist mode - relatively low expense and upkeep once you have it.

The larger the boat gets the harder it is to make a minimalist argument.  My thoughts - if you can't pick it up you have better have a good reason for having it (my exception is a car, washer/dryer, fridge).  OK - I have road bikes and Mt. bikes - but these are way old and I maintain them, skis, climbing equipment, blah, blah.

The other element that comes into this, for me anyway, is that I don't want more big stuff.  I have a small house on purpose - it's just us two now, and I like a relatively simple life and try (emphasis) to keep acquired stuff low.

And lastly - there is the effect on the environment.  I bike the vast majority of the time and yes, the car is a necessary evil.  I don't need to consume another big thing that is a time suck and emits carbon.  A kayak seems a good deal - low time for maintenance, hang it in the garage, and get out for some exercise.