Is it ever ok to own a boat?

[savingstldad]

My wife and kids are really pressuring for a boat.  We live near the water and I think it'd see a fair bit of use.  I would have a blast on a boat I think, but the spending goes against my grain since I'm a saver type.  Of course the boat would require a different vehicle (probably some kind of pickup) to transport it.

So my questions are:

Is it ever ok to own a boat as a mustachian wannabe?

What type of vehicle would be ideal for someone like me to pull a 3500-4000lb boat if I get one?

[2lazy2retire]

A Mexican fisherman

[Syonyk]

Can you find a friend with a boat and pay for gas/maintenance?

How much do you have saved?  If you're already FI, sure, go for it.  Otherwise, the phrase "hole in the money you throw water in" is a common description of boats, for a reason.

If you're talking about a basic 20' boat with an outboard, sure, have fun.  But they're not 4000 lbs - that puts you into a decent size inboard motor class, which really can be money pits.

[2Birds1Stone]

A Mexican fisherman

A great story indeed

[GuitarStv]

Big boats are very expensive.  Have you thoroughly investigated other options?
- Boat rentals
- Purchasing smaller boats (easier storage/towing, cheaper)
- Lightweight watercraft (canoes/kayaks/rafts)

What exactly is the experience you think that you would be missing out on by going with one of the above routes?

[TheOldestYoungMan]

"The two happiest days of a boat owner are the day they buy it and the day they sell it."

That said, mustachianism isn't about not buying the boat.  It's about only buying the boat if it's something that you will truly enjoy and get alot out of.  It's about only buying a boat in as efficient a manner as possible, and about responsibly owning that boat.

So if you're really down for mastering all the maintenance and repairs DIY style, if you're interested in giving guided fishing tours or any other way of monetizing the hobby, if you're committed to thoroughly researching the vehicle and buying a well used well maintained hobbyist piece.

If it's a 3-4 times a year type deal, rent.

The only person I know with a boat who isn't a jackass consuma suckah with it lives on a canal and takes it out fishing 3-4 times a week, 9 months out of the year.

It's where a decent percentage of the food his family eats all year comes from, and he's fanatical about maintenance on the thing.

Every time I run the numbers I can only make it work if I go all in and get a boat I can live on.  One of them ones what has sails.  Sailboat?

There's a blog on an FI guy who's doing that.  Can't find it at the moment but somebody here prolly going to link it soon.

[Syonyk]

The only person I know with a boat who isn't a jackass consuma suckah with it lives on a canal and takes it out fishing 3-4 times a week, 9 months out of the year.

I bet he doesn't even have the custom deep metallic sparkle paint on it. :(

[Le Poisson]

I loved my boat. I have done much wailing over selling it, but I have also saved a metric tonne of cash.

As has already been alluded to, type of boat matters a great deal. A canoe is pretty cheap, you can store it in your back yard, and you can travel great distances slowly in it. It takes minimal maintenance, and no fuel. I believe a canoe, or its cousin, a kayak would meet the demands of mustachianism without much hassle. Our canoe cost us $850. I budgeted up to $1200

Similarly, a small sailboat like a 420 or Moth is packed with fun and speed. Transport can be behind a family van, and maintenance is still quite limited - a new set of sails every few years, possibly a small electric motor to get off the docks until you develop skills. Less mustachy than a canoe, but more than some others. Budget $1500 for the sailboat complete.

A tin can fishing boat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEaqO7v0d2Y equipped with oars rather than an outboard might compete with a canoe, but comes with launching a retreival hassles. You will inevitably want to throw 10 or 20 horses on the transom, and then it starts to lose it mustachianism.  You aren't allowed to pay more than $2500 for the boat complete with outfitting.

In my opinion, unless you live on it, anything larger than these will not be doable on a mustache budget.

My boat was a small (25 foot) sailboat equipped with a 9.9 hp outboard. Annual maintenance budget was in the order of $5,000. Our slip was $400 per month plus bar tab, events, pumpouts, etc. Consider that even a well used boat only leaves the slip twice per week. Less once you factor in vacations and work schedules interfering with your boating schedule.

So yes, a canoe is mustachian.

[mm1970]

I guess it depends.

My husband's family lives near a lake and have camps on the lake.  The lake does not allow power boats.  But they have, at times, owned kayaks, canoes, and sailboats.

My husband recently wanted to buy a kayak after going out with friends on one.  We live at the ocean.  I shook my head, and bought him a gift card to 12 hours of kayak rental time for his birthday.  He's used 1 hour.  In 2 years.

I have several friends who own boats, being at the ocean.  One of them uses it a lot.  It's very nice, and I've been on it (but not out to sea on it).  They enjoy sailing and racing.  Their kids are grown/ college age.

I have another friend who owned a boat and lived on it until their kids were well into elementary school. 

My sister and her husband have both owned boats too, though they don't right now.  They are retired, but for a couple of decades (no kids), they enjoyed boating.


Can you afford the boat (pay cash)?  Will you use it and enjoy it?

[AZDude]

No. If you buy a boat we will hunt you down and burn you at the stake, and you will then rot in hell forever.

Anyway, before you plunk down $50K on a boat/SUB combo(at least), look into local memberships, etc... I know even around here you can buy a membership to a boating club where you just have to pay a monthly fee(like $300) and then are able to reserve a boat X times a month. I imagine there are similar organizations near you.

[bobechs]

A Mexican fisherman

A great story indeed

I liked the one about the Cuban fisherman better.

[savingstldad]

Thanks for the replies.  I could afford to pay cash for it, but I'm not retired or even close to it really.  I am probably 8 years from any type of FIRE just because that's when the last little one in the house will be off to college and my expenses become easier to plan and control.  I would likely use the boat regularly, maybe twice a week.  I'm mostly looking at 20 foot pontoon type boats that we can go float out in a lake and swim, fish, etc on.  I see plenty around for 10-15k in good condition. 

The lake where I live doesn't allow rentals and the boat has to be owned by someone that lives in the city on a property with "lake rights".

[GuitarStv]

You can row an inflatable out into the middle of the lake and swim/fish off of it pretty easily . . .

[Chris22]

My dad had a 14' Hobie Cat for years and years.  Boat + trailer weighed maybe 1000lbs total, so basically anything could tow it (the family station wagon did in the 80s).  In the summer, he left it on the beach at our friends' beach house (~20 minutes from where we lived) where we spent every weekend anyways.  In the winter it was in our backyard.  If that boat cost him $100 a year to own I'd be shocked.  In the end he put an ad on Craigslist and gave it to a guy who was going to fix it up and teach his kids to sail (just like my dad did for me).

My father in law currently owns an 18' bowrider powerboat.  They have a lakehouse, and the boat is garaged at the lakehouse, except for the weeks they're up there, when it sits on a boatlift on the lake next to their dock.  He paid ~$6500 for the boat a dozen years ago or so, and could probably resell it for $5k or so today if he wanted.  It costs a little bit more than the above sail boat, but still probably less than $500/yr all in (including registration and paying someone to move the lift in and out of the lake seasonallly).  The various guests up at the lake, including me, usually will go make a gas run when we use it, so he rarely pays for gas. 


I'd argue those are both relatively Mustachian ways to own boats.  You'll notice the common themes: free to store, and minimal trailering.  If you have to pay for storage, your costs will go way way up.  And if you have to trailer it, your use will go down and it will drive vehicle choices, etc.

[RoseRelish]

Boats can be loads of fun and provide somewhat frugal outdoors family bonding. For example, we bought a small boat for skiing and other watersports last year for $2,200. It seats 4-6 people and has enough power to pull 250lb skiers. I am very anti-boat, but it's a pretty small price to pay for the amount of fun a boat can provide.

We also own a 30 year old pontoon for tooling around, swimming, and fishing. It requires ~$150-250/year of maintenance.

It just depends how much money you have available for entertainment.

[Jack]

IMO, yes, but only if it's either (a) small enough for a couple of people to carry or (b) large enough to live on full-time, and you actually do so.

[Northwestie]

You know what they say: "Instead of owning a boat you can just stand in the shower and rip up money"

[lthenderson]

Bring
On
Another
Thousand

[Mtngrl]

We have an 18-ft canoe. A friend's barn burned and the canoe got scorched at one end. The friend gave it to us when we helped clean up after the fire. My husband refinished it at a cost of about $150 and he uses it a couple of times a month in summer and fall at the local lake.

We also have a 2-person inflatable kayak that we take camping. Cost $100 and I bought it with an Amazon GC I got for participating in a market research study.

Our best friends have a pontoon. They bought it thinking they would use it a lot -- hubby is an avid fisherman and they had visions of them taking it out on weekends with the kids and grandkids all summer. The reality is that the thing gets wet maybe twice a summer. The rest of the time it takes up space in the driveway all summer and they pay to store it in winter. This is a story I have seen repeated over and over. Another friend spent thousands of dollars over five years berthing a sailboat at the local lake, but their lives were so busy if they took it out 4 or 5 times a year they were lucky. They finally sold it. So be honest with yourself about whether or not you really have the time to use it as much as you imagine you will.

[Le Poisson]

Our best friends have a pontoon. They bought it thinking they would use it a lot -- hubby is an avid fisherman and they had visions of them taking it out on weekends with the kids and grandkids all summer. The reality is that the thing gets wet maybe twice a summer. The rest of the time it takes up space in the driveway all summer and they pay to store it in winter. This is a story I have seen repeated over and over. Another friend spent thousands of dollars over five years berthing a sailboat at the local lake, but their lives were so busy if they took it out 4 or 5 times a year they were lucky. They finally sold it. So be honest with yourself about whether or not you really have the time to use it as much as you imagine you will.

This is a good point - maybe mark on a calendar every day in a month when actually taking the boat out would be feasible. You may be surprised how little use you would actually have for it.

In our first year of ownership it was every Wednesday night (regattas!) and every weekend at the marina, with the odd maintenance visit tossed in.

By year six it was down to once a month.

[mtn]

We have an 18' Lund Alaskan. That is an aluminum fishing boat. Ours is a 1985, we bought it in... 2000 when I was 10 years old, my brothers were 7 and 12. Total we probably have about $15,000 into it over the past 16 years. That includes everything--purchase price, new floor, rebuild of the engine, trailer maintenance, new seats, paint, storage*, insurance, tags, etc.

Could we have rented cheaper? Maybe. It would have been very close--some years we used it 3 times a week for the entire summer, some years I'd be shocked if we used it for 3 days. But we didn't have to plan to use this one, we knew we had it. We got to learn as young kids how to paint, do minor engine maintenance, how to hook up a boat battery, how to take a boat out and do the safety checklist, how to moor it outside, how to... Sure, all of these things could be learned using a rental, but we had something to show for it. A wonderful bonding experience with my brothers and my dad.

*We stored it for the first 12-13 years at my grandpa's vacation home. Since he sold that, we've been paying storage--probably about $400 for the year. Because of that, my costs may be too low, but the only thing I'd be underestimating are the storage fees. Additionally, we didn't plan on storing it this long. Since grandpa sold his place, dad has been trying to buy a place of his own, but the options are few and far between.

Be realistic. Will you get the use of it? My dad is looking at a new boat--probably will spend $20k to $30k on the purchase price. But he is planning to keep it nearly until he dies (he's 62; his parents lived to 87 and 91) and us kids will get free reign with it--3 kids, and hopefully grandkids soon. My grandpa always said that his vacation home and boat were the best investment he ever made. I can tell you he may never have seen any positive returns on it (I'm sure he didn't), but he was right. I'm very good friends with my siblings and my cousins and my aunts and uncles because of it. And he could afford it, so what did it matter? He and my grandma got immeasurable joy out of seeing his family enjoying something he provided. My dad now wants to do the same. I'm happy for that.

Boats are wonderful. Who cares if it isn't a great investment, sometimes the return is hiding between the lines.



EDIT: I should note that we're talking about Lake Michigan here, which is why Dad is ok spending that much. A 16' runabout speedboat isn't great--we know, we've done it. If you're on an inland lake you can get away with something much smaller/lighter/cheaper (not as well built). A 12 foot boat isn't going to work for more than tooling around the cove (we had those too--they're great for that; those are essentially free if you can store it somewhere).

[MM_MG]

We loved using ours.  Bought it at a great price too.   That said, we don't use it much any more and are planning to sell it this spring/summer.  If you are on the west coast I'll give you a MMM discount (under $6K).  ;)   

[CanuckExpat]

We have three boats: inflatable kayak, single personal plastic kayak, tandem plastic kayak.
The first we bought for $50 on Craigslist, the latter two we got for free from a neighbor because they were taking up too much room.

They don't cost that much to own, store or transport.

In all honesty the inflatable kayak gets the most use because it's the easiest to get where we need it. I think we are going to sell the other two on Craigslist because it's not worth the hassle of transporting them compared to the inflatable. If you wanted, any kayak they can be transported easily in a normal car, by bike, or just carried to the water if you lived close enough.

So ya, I don't think owning a boat has to be that that expensive, unless you pick a silly gas powered version, and those tend to leak oils and gas into the water :(

[mtn]

Oh, you asked about tow vehicles: This will depend on where you live, how/where you use the boat, and the size of the boat. We don't have hills and only have to worry about the boat launch. We've towed with 3/4 ton pickups (overkill, but it was a cheap truck), Honda minivans, Crown Vics, 4Runners, etc. It was always a consideration, but we joked when we got our Tundra (towing didn't come into the consideration) that we were going to need a bigger boat.

If we had to deal with hills to and from the boat launch, if we were towing every day, or if we were towing a gargantuan boat, we'd probably have kept the 3/4 pickup or replaced it with another. But there was no need for it. Heck, we could tow our current 18 foot boat with a Mazda3--it weighs in at about 1800 pounds, the 3's capacity is 2000 (might have to get trailer brakes).

[Chris22]

Heck, we could tow our current 18 foot boat with a Mazda3--it weighs in at about 1800 pounds, the 3's capacity is 2000 (might have to get trailer brakes).

Just be careful with boat launches.  Being able to tow a boat is not necessarily the same as being able to launch a boat. 

[mtn]

Heck, we could tow our current 18 foot boat with a Mazda3--it weighs in at about 1800 pounds, the 3's capacity is 2000 (might have to get trailer brakes).

Just be careful with boat launches.  Being able to tow a boat is not necessarily the same as being able to launch a boat.

*Whistles as he walks away remembering the time that the Crown Vic was sliding backwards on the boat ramp and the tires were just spinning on the slick ramp*

Yeah, you do have to be careful with the transmission, aware of the tires, and the condition of the ramp. It isn't an issue for us anymore since our current tow vehicle is 4WD, but we used to turn around if we saw seaweed on a ramp.

[TheInsuranceMan]

My wife and kids are really pressuring for a boat.  We live near the water and I think it'd see a fair bit of use.  I would have a blast on a boat I think, but the spending goes against my grain since I'm a saver type.  Of course the boat would require a different vehicle (probably some kind of pickup) to transport it.

So my questions are:

Is it ever ok to own a boat as a mustachian wannabe?

What type of vehicle would be ideal for someone like me to pull a 3500-4000lb boat if I get one?

Do you want a boat?
Do you have a vehicle to pull the boat?
Can you afford it?

If yes, then why wouldn't it be okay to own a boat?

[couponvan]

Do not buy a boat until every home maintenance item you can possibly think of has been completed in your home....Every item.

We got an old deck boat at our FIRE/lake house (super deal from 80 year olds who'd babied the thing since it was purchased for their retirement) and now DH just wants to go fishing/out on the boat - never wanting to do work that still needs to get done.  He has a short term memory for fun and a long term memory for work. But he isn't really interested in FIRE - I am. ;-) If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't get the boat.

[Chris22]

Do not buy a boat until every home maintenance item you can possibly think of has been completed in your home....Every item.

We got an old deck boat at our FIRE/lake house (super deal from 80 year olds who'd babied the thing since it was purchased for their retirement) and now DH just wants to go fishing/out on the boat - never wanting to do work that still needs to get done.  He has a short term memory for fun and a long term memory for work. But he isn't really interested in FIRE - I am. ;-) If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't get the boat.

Wow.  Is that a marriage or a dictatorship? 

[Le Poisson]

My wife and kids are really pressuring for a boat.  We live near the water and I think it'd see a fair bit of use.  I would have a blast on a boat I think, but the spending goes against my grain since I'm a saver type.  Of course the boat would require a different vehicle (probably some kind of pickup) to transport it.

So my questions are:

Is it ever ok to own a boat as a mustachian wannabe?

What type of vehicle would be ideal for someone like me to pull a 3500-4000lb boat if I get one?

Do you want a boat?
Do you have a vehicle to pull the boat?
Can you afford it?

If yes, then why wouldn't it be okay to own a boat?

Because the whole goal of mustachianism is to simplify, remove distractions, and only invest in the things that bring the most joy with the least investment of time, effort, and environment.

A simple fishing boat or canoe, propelled by muscle power or wind will give a good return on happiness without requiring much of an investment in time or effort, and will have minimal environmental impact.

A Donzi, Bowrider, or Fourwinns OTOH, or even, say, a Catalina 25 fin-keel standard rig with 3 full sail suits for weekend regattas, heavy weather sailing, and distant cruises; equipped with a really cool chartplotter, wind, depth, speed gauges; a functioning galley, head, and entertainment system will bring you some happiness. It will also bring a lot of maintenance (learn to love Cetol and 3m sealants), transportation (2500 series Suburban anyone? How about the operating and maintenance costs associated?), and ongoing ownership costs (My slip costs more than my boat is worth! - The boat was only worth $6500 when I bought it!).

Like most things in the Mustache world, its a matter of keeping the desires in check. If all you want is a simple boat that brings you the pleasures of being on the water, and you don't go complicating it, then of course its OK, but as soon as the add-ons start adding on, you are headed down a slippery slope.

[Sailor Sam]

Have you been on boats before? Has your family? If not, then you should definitely rent until you get a feel for your water tolerance, and understand what kind of boats you like.

Are you, or someone in your circle, mechanically handy? Marine mechanics are expensive, and they automatically have you over a barrel. Point in your favour if you have a high tolerance for fixing all the things that will break.

As for hierarchy:
- It's very economical to own something you can launch by hand, that has no engine, and can be stored for free
- Remove one of those things, and the money flow will start
- Remove 2, and the outflow will increase
- Remove all 3, and it's pretty much a siphon.

Obligatory safety plug - if you do get into boating, consider taking a water safety class and always wear your flotation.

[Rollin]

Good input above.  I'll add to it.

If you are buying the boat for the family use that is a great way to spend time together.  However, after a season or two interest will likely wane.  Not to say that two years of family fun isn't worth it, but if you are not aware of this is might be a disappointment.

What you described (20' pontoon) can be a great deal, if you purchase right.  Lots and lots of room for the family and the kid's friends.  They are also surprisingly stable in rough conditions (not Ocean stable in my mind, but inshore).  You can always sell it when you are done.  Just make sure you have the motor check out (and the plywood under the deck).

I have a Yamaha F70 on my 18' skiff and it costs about $150/year to maintain (I do my own work - so just "parts" like oil and filters - easy to do), plus about $100/year in insurance.

[mtn]

Have you been on boats before? Has your family? If not, then you should definitely rent until you get a feel for your water tolerance, and understand what kind of boats you like.

Are you, or someone in your circle, mechanically handy? Marine mechanics are expensive, and they automatically have you over a barrel. Point in your favour if you have a high tolerance for fixing all the things that will break.

As for hierarchy:
- It's very economical to own something you can launch by hand, that has no engine, and can be stored for free
- Remove one of those things, and the money flow will start
- Remove 2, and the outflow will increase
- Remove all 3, and it's pretty much a siphon.

Obligatory safety plug - if you do get into boating, consider taking a water safety class and always wear your flotation.

This is pretty good advice, but see it as guidelines. For instance, if I have a 12 foot boat with a 10 horse engine, I can launch it by hand. Our 18 foot aluminum is essentially the same boat as that 12 foot boat--the only differences are a 70 horse outboard engine (not any different, really) and a floor (replace once every 20 years or less). I can't launch it by hand, but maintenance isn't any more.

[Chris22]

A simple fishing boat or canoe, propelled by muscle power or wind will give a good return on happiness

A Donzi, Bowrider, or Fourwinns OTOH, or even, say, a Catalina 25 fin-keel standard rig with 3 full sail suits for weekend regattas, heavy weather sailing, and distant cruises; equipped with a really cool chartplotter, wind, depth, speed gauges; a functioning galley, head, and entertainment system will bring you some happiness.

This is the kind of shit that drives me batty.  How do you know?  How can you make the sweeping assumption that everyone will be satisfied with a canoe and not a bigger boat?

At the lakehouse, we have an old canoe (gotten for free), an aluminum john boat with a trolling motor (free), a jet ski, and the bowrider. 

We use the jet ski about 60% of the time, the bowrider 40% of the time, and I've been in the canoe and john boat about 1x each ever. 

[Le Poisson]

A simple fishing boat or canoe, propelled by muscle power or wind will give a good return on happiness

A Donzi, Bowrider, or Fourwinns OTOH, or even, say, a Catalina 25 fin-keel standard rig with 3 full sail suits for weekend regattas, heavy weather sailing, and distant cruises; equipped with a really cool chartplotter, wind, depth, speed gauges; a functioning galley, head, and entertainment system will bring you some happiness.

This is the kind of shit that drives me batty.  How do you know?  How can you make the sweeping assumption that everyone will be satisfied with a canoe and not a bigger boat?

At the lakehouse, we have an old canoe (gotten for free), an aluminum john boat with a trolling motor (free), a jet ski, and the bowrider. 

We use the jet ski about 60% of the time, the bowrider 40% of the time, and I've been in the canoe and john boat about 1x each ever.

I love you for the troll you are Chris22. You help me develop restraint.

[WSUCoug1994]

I am a boat owner and I have owned a boat for my entire adult life.  Shame on me....I know.  I am not 100% MMM by any extreme but I do live on 30% of my income.  I have a 23' wakeboard boat which requires a moderate amount of maintenance and upkeep that I do myself (which I enjoy doing).  I love my boat.  I use my boat probably 75 days a year or more.  i paid cash when it was 4 years old (paid half of what it was new) and it is well insured.  I keep my boat in my garage so I don't have to pay for storage/slip.  I get more enjoyment out of my boat than any other consumer item I have purchased.  I also have a vehicle that I insure and maintain to tow this boat.

I think FI is about doing the things that make you happy and hopefully gives you a unique way to spend time with your family and friends.  I think boats do that better than most consumer purchases.  To me it is like escapism and a vacation every weekend.  Pontoon boats couldn't be better because they require very little maintenance.  They are durable, indestructible and often run on a small, 4-stroke outboard and those things literally run forever.  There is little fiberglass to protect and maintain and usually the only "maintenance" is keeping the vinyl happy and healthy on the interior.  They have very few accessories and are designed to take a beating and keep on running. 

If you can find the age/price combination that fits your budget - you can probably predict my vote is to go for it.  If you buy a boat that has seen most of the depreciation 5-10 years - you don't risk losing much money if you decide to sell it.

[CanuckExpat]

What type of vehicle would be ideal for someone like me to pull a 3500-4000lb boat if I get one?

I just re-read your post. That is a really heavy boat. Are you thinking of a kayak made out of lead? You know you can get them in plastic or fiberglass now right?
Do you have 10 kids and need a very big boat?

[Chris22]

A simple fishing boat or canoe, propelled by muscle power or wind will give a good return on happiness

A Donzi, Bowrider, or Fourwinns OTOH, or even, say, a Catalina 25 fin-keel standard rig with 3 full sail suits for weekend regattas, heavy weather sailing, and distant cruises; equipped with a really cool chartplotter, wind, depth, speed gauges; a functioning galley, head, and entertainment system will bring you some happiness.

This is the kind of shit that drives me batty.  How do you know?  How can you make the sweeping assumption that everyone will be satisfied with a canoe and not a bigger boat?

At the lakehouse, we have an old canoe (gotten for free), an aluminum john boat with a trolling motor (free), a jet ski, and the bowrider. 

We use the jet ski about 60% of the time, the bowrider 40% of the time, and I've been in the canoe and john boat about 1x each ever.

I love you for the troll you are Chris22. You help me develop restraint.

I'm not trolling.  I'm sincere.  I see statements that tell people flat out "you'll be happier rowing a canoe than on a power boat."  Maybe that's true for some people, but it's demonstrably not true for everyone.  If all you can afford is a canoe, yes, you'll be more stressed trying to stretch to a power boat.  But if you can afford a power boat, and it isn't an issue for you, how do you KNOW it would bring less happiness than a canoe?

Also, people are willing to take it at a given that MMM enjoys DIY house/construction work.  Is it hard to believe some of us don't mind, or even enjoy, basic maintenance on a boat (or car or what have you)?  I LIKE working on mechanical things, and don't find the 4 or 5 hours I spend a year maintaining my FIL's boats to be a chore. 

[Le Poisson]

OK Chris, I'll bite. The question at teh heart of this was:

Is it ever ok to own a boat as a mustachian wannabe?

To which the reply in Pete's own words (Oh Gawd, I'm quoting him like he's some sort of deity now) would be:

I think you might be noticing a pattern here. And the pattern is of course Muscle over Motor. It’s more than just an article. It’s a Founding Principle of Mustachianism, because when you embrace it, it adds great fun to your life even while it simultaneously strips away the fat from your physique and your budget. It’s one of the most powerful little three-word sentences you can embrace.

Because of the power of Muscle over Motor, you should be deeply suspicious of anything with a motor. A motor represents a shortcut to getting something done. That sounds good on the surface, but you must consider what you are shortcutting.

A motorboat will get you across the lake quickly, but wait a minute, you like being on the lake – so why not use your muscles to actually earn your trip across it. It takes longer – that is a good thing. You will enjoy the beers on the deck afterwards much more when you really deserve them.

And further along in the article...

But when applied to most of your life, this whole idea of powering your own damned recreational activities (including lawn care) is a great one. It’s another form of Insourcing, but it applies to everyone, not just homeowners with chores.  If you find yourself tempted to use a motor when a muscle will do just as well, you should imagine me hovering behind you and reminding you of the slogan every time you reach for a gas-powered lifestyle accessory.

So if the question is what will bring you the most happiness with the least effort, dolla-dolla bills be damned, then yes, something that has an ongoing fuel and maintenance cost MAY be the winner. But if the question is what the most mustachian way to tackle the problem is, or what is the most mustachian boat, then you sir deserve a facepunch for each motorized boat in the boathouse.

Having said that, I have a nice little Johnson 2.5 HP I need to get rid of. I got it for the sailboat's dinghy and I've never actually used it. If you want, I'll sell it to you and you can motorize your canoe.

[backyardfeast]

Well, we are passionate sailboat owners, and I think boats are totally anti-mustachian; that is, they are money pits.  But that doesn't mean you shouldn't get one! :)

The only way to make these decisions is to be realistic about the costs, the happiness those costs bring, the opportunity cost lost because of the expenses, and your overall financial goals.

So, we have had sailboats for the last 6 or so years (as well as canoes for much longer).  DH is a fervent sailor and general handyman who can't think of *anything* he'd rather do than spend his time at the marina working on his boat.  If we ever split up, he'd be living on it in a heartbeat! :)  He'd rather cut everything else from the budget than the sailboat, but even he acknowledges that it's a huge luxury and not at all essential for our life.  We don't insure it for that reason--if it goes down, it goes down.

Money-wise, it's a 1980 "classic plastic" that we got from an estate sale for $7500 (usual market value 12-15K).  We put another $1000 into it immediately just to clean it up from having been sitting for 18mos.  It was in outstanding shape, exceptionally well-maintained.  It still costs about $2K a year in maintenance, $3000+ to keep at the marina year-round, and at some point (sooner rather than later) it's going to need a new engine ($10K).  DH does all the labour himself.  If we continue to spend $5K a year on her, we might be able to sell her for the usual $12K, but you never know.  Boats are easy to buy and hard to sell!

Anyway.  We acknowledge that she is a luxurious money pit.  But, she also comprises a vast amount of our entertainment budget, our social life, DH's well-being budget, and all of our vacation/travel budget.  We justify the expense by recognizing that many (totally non-mustachian!) people we know spend $5k several times a year on fancy vacations, so for us, it's worth it.  We're very willing to not spend money on many other forms of entertainment and travel and focus that spending on this instead.

Personally, if I was considering the purchase, I'd be looking at purchase price, maintenance costs, storage costs, and general market for these if I wanted to sell in a year or two.  Then, as Prospector said, I'd go over the calendar and be realistic about how often we'd be able to take advantage of using the boat.  I'd reflect on how that expenditure fits within my family's overall financial goals and whether there are places in the budget that some of these costs might come from (ie current vacation expenses).  If it all works, go for it! Have a blast for a few years, and then sell and move on.

[Fishindude]

I'm a boat guy, own several and spend many days on the water every year fishing and just loafing.   Boating is a blast and being that close to a nice lake, you should be able to do it a lot.   It's great family fun and kids will have a blast.

Your idea of a pontoon boat is good.  A 20' to 24' pontoon can be towed pretty easily with a 1/2 ton pick up or any full size SUV or van.   Wouldn't want to tow one 200 miles, but a few miles to the lake, no sweat.  I would get one with at least 90HP so kids can tube, and get a four stroke motor for reliability.   You can find some sweet deals on used.  Should be able to pick up a great condition 4-8 year old boat for 2/3 the price of new.  Most used stuff has seen very little use, just a couple tanks of fuel per year, then it sits the rest of the time.   Used stuff often comes with all of the life jackets, some toys, cover, etc. to save buying all of that stuff.   

Make sure you have someplace to store it.  Many marinas will winterize them, shrink wrap and store for you if you don't have a barn.   Things do go wrong with boats, so you need to be a little mechanically handy to keep them up.  Modern 4 stroke outboards have come a long way and are much more reliable than outboard motors of the past.

Yea they cost a little money, but if you can pay cash for it, you can have pretty reasonably priced weekend mini-vacations.
I'd go for it.

[savingstldad]

Thanks again for all the replies.  I'm saying 3500-4000lb's because I see big variances in weight on these boats, but I'm really looking for about a 20 foot pontoon, whatever that weights.  I'm going to need a vehicle to pull it, so I'm saying 3500-4000 so I don't end up with something that can't pull one of these boats.

The other consideration is I have this lake very close by, the ramp to put in a boat is maybe 2 miles away.  I also have a giant lake about 2 hours drive away where I have cousins/aunts/uncles and I'd like to be able to take it there as well to hang out with them.  This is in Missouri, so some hills but no mountains to climb or anything.

[acanthurus]

How old are the kids? See if there is a sea scouts group near you.

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Venturing/seascouts.aspx

After a summer or two of boat repair they'll learn never to own a boat. Best lesson to teach them IMO.

[horsepoor]

Why must boat = power boat?  It will be cheaper and healthier for everyone to get a rowboat or a canoe, and you don't need a special vehicle to move it. 

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/12/05/muscle-over-motor/

[ponyespresso]

I agree with buying a canoe, kayak, or even a stand up paddleboard (SUP). A SUP is not exactly a boat, but supposed to be lots of fun. A canoe probably makes the most sense with more than 2 people.

I think if you are FI with plenty of extra cash, and will still be FI after buying a fancy pants boat, then it is OK to purchase one. (That is my rationale on buying a really $$$ car, and it seems like same goes for a boat.)

[mtn]

Why must boat = power boat?  It will be cheaper and healthier for everyone to get a rowboat or a canoe, and you don't need a special vehicle to move it. 

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/12/05/muscle-over-motor/

Poor analogy. Brocolli is healthier and cheaper than Bruanschwieger. Chard is healthier and cheaper than funnel cakes. The stairs are healthier and cheaper than the elevator, but I lived on the 17th floor when I was in college.

BTDT. They're fun. Sure. I agree. But I get a LOT more enjoyment out of power boats/sail boats than a canoe or a rowboat.

[horsepoor]

Why must boat = power boat?  It will be cheaper and healthier for everyone to get a rowboat or a canoe, and you don't need a special vehicle to move it. 

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/12/05/muscle-over-motor/

Poor analogy. Brocolli is healthier and cheaper than Bruanschwieger. Chard is healthier and cheaper than funnel cakes. The stairs are healthier and cheaper than the elevator, but I lived on the 17th floor when I was in college.

BTDT. They're fun. Sure. I agree. But I get a LOT more enjoyment out of power boats/sail boats than a canoe or a rowboat.

What analogy?  Do you know what an analogy is?

I directly referenced an MMM article on the topic, since this is, you know, MMM.

Also, I grew up on a sailboat and learned to row a boat when I was 4.  If you want to get weak, deaf and broke zooming around disturbing wildlife in a powerboat, go for it.  I'm just pointing out that there are alternatives with plenty of benefits.

[Retire-Canada]

To which the reply in Pete's own words (Oh Gawd, I'm quoting him like he's some sort of deity now) would be:

I think you might be noticing a pattern here. And the pattern is of course Muscle over Motor. It’s more than just an article. It’s a Founding Principle of Mustachianism, because when you embrace it, it adds great fun to your life even while it simultaneously strips away the fat from your physique and your budget. It’s one of the most powerful little three-word sentences you can embrace.

Because of the power of Muscle over Motor, you should be deeply suspicious of anything with a motor. A motor represents a shortcut to getting something done. That sounds good on the surface, but you must consider what you are shortcutting.

A motorboat will get you across the lake quickly, but wait a minute, you like being on the lake – so why not use your muscles to actually earn your trip across it. It takes longer – that is a good thing. You will enjoy the beers on the deck afterwards much more when you really deserve them.

He said that, but then he got an electric bike and then one of his latest posts is about hiring someone to do his taxes. Give him a a couple years and he'll have a motor boat....maybe a solar electric one though. ;)

[mtn]

Why must boat = power boat?  It will be cheaper and healthier for everyone to get a rowboat or a canoe, and you don't need a special vehicle to move it. 

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/12/05/muscle-over-motor/

Poor analogy. Brocolli is healthier and cheaper than Bruanschwieger. Chard is healthier and cheaper than funnel cakes. The stairs are healthier and cheaper than the elevator, but I lived on the 17th floor when I was in college.

BTDT. They're fun. Sure. I agree. But I get a LOT more enjoyment out of power boats/sail boats than a canoe or a rowboat.

What analogy?  Do you know what an analogy is?

I directly referenced an MMM article on the topic, since this is, you know, MMM.

Also, I grew up on a sailboat and learned to row a boat when I was 4.  If you want to get weak, deaf and broke zooming around disturbing wildlife in a powerboat, go for it.  I'm just pointing out that there are alternatives with plenty of benefits.

An analogy is a comparison between two things. You are comparing a Powerboat to a rowboat. They're both good for what they're doing, but they're doing completely different things--other than floating on the water, of course. I go in the canoe when I want to go up the creek or toodle around the pond. I get in the powerboat when I want to go fast.

As for ruining my hearing, the sound is behind you. And with modern engines, it isn't loud either. Still haven't gotten broke from my powerboating (let me check my vanguard... nope, not broke!) and unless being on a powerboat somehow eats the muscle that I build when I'm working out, I don't see how it will make me weak.

Yeah, i get what you were trying to say. I'm saying that it isn't the same. I can go ride a horse, or I can ride a bike. Same thing right?

[adam]

Generally I find that most people who talk shit about owning a boat don't own a boat.

You can have mine when you pry it from my cold dead hands.