Author Topic: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?  (Read 19316 times)

DadJokes

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2021, 10:27:27 AM »
He's far from a moron. Some of his advice is good, and I'm sure it has helped a lot of people turn their finances around.

He is an arrogant ass, though. I stopped listening to him last summer when he was ridiculing the COVID pandemic and response. My decision was solidified when news came out about his refusal to allow people to wear masks in the workplace or when catering a huge holiday party at his home (during a big pandemic wave), his bullying of employees, and hypocrisy in the application of his morality code (a female worker was fired for having premarital sex, whereas Chris Hogan was allowed to stay on the air even after cheating on his wife).
https://religionnews.com/2021/01/15/dave-ramsey-is-tired-of-being-called-a-jerk-for-his-stands-on-sex-and-covid/
https://religionnews.com/2021/01/15/full-ramsey-solutions-response/

If you want to look up his advice or direct someone else to it, I'd advise sending them to the library or giving them a secondhand copy of a book.

Seriously, this should just be quoted every time DR comes up in a topic. He's a despicable human being.

He also made fun of schools for cancelling school when the weather forecast was calling for tornados (March 2020). That day, we had a serious tornado come straight through Nashville. Rather than own up to it and apologize, the company just removed that segment from the saved recording of his show.

Morning Glory

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2021, 10:38:06 AM »
MMM said some pretty dumb things about Covid too.

PDXTabs

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2021, 10:47:14 AM »
Yup, I read Total Money Makeover years ago and some of the advice might be good, but his insistence that the only okay mortgage is a 15 year mortgage is so mathematically incorrect as to be abusive to his audience.
...

Remember, fewer than 2 out of 5 Americans can afford a single $1000 emergency expense so the problem with most people is they are spending money in dumb ways. Credit card bonuses is a way that people get sucked into spending for bad reasons.

Come on, I read Total Money Makeover. Step #1, before the debt snowball, is to save $1000. Furthermore, everyone that is following Dave Ramsey has a full emergency fund (that's step #3) by the time that they are considering a mortgage.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 10:53:54 AM by PDXTabs »

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2021, 10:55:28 AM »

ohio4life

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #54 on: May 12, 2021, 11:01:25 AM »
I watch a few YouTube clips every morning as I wake up and I subscribe to Dave for fun and not advice. He had a woman on who made 20k from a real estate sale and he used her as an example of why not to buy property with someone you are not married to. She seemed to agree, but that had nothing to do with her call. She was calling because she wanted to stash the money somewhere. I literally said to my partner, "Is Dave an idiot?" because his takeaway was so ridiculous. Sure things went bad, but she got out with cash and wasn't calling to complain about her past relationship. It was a call about what to do with a windfall! He tried to use this bad example as proof of one size fits all advice even when it didn't make sense. I'm sure he is smarter than me, but I asked the exact question about Dave today!

This is all you need to know about Dave: https://www.nashvillescene.com/news/pith-in-the-wind/article/21096181/deposition-yes-dave-ramsey-pulled-out-a-gun-in-staff-meeting-decrying-gossip

Morning Glory

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2021, 07:56:41 PM »
MMM said some pretty dumb things about Covid too.

And so did we:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/coronavirus-preparedness/

Thanks, that's a good one. We can get into arguments in spite of nobody actually knowing anything.

Travis

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2021, 08:48:14 PM »
It'ss easy to sound like a moron on twitter because all nuance must be edited out. The distilled soundbites are often more extreme than the original message, and often structured in such a way to make it difficult to argue with them. Leading with the idea that "millionaires didn't get all their money with credit cards" is an example of a common persuasive technique that's often used in advertising. You start off with something nobody can disagree with and then make a bad analogy with it to prove your point.  Lots of us on here can see through this argument and might be pissed off by it a little, because it's blatantly manipulative and lazy.

He's given this statement many times over the years, not just on Twitter. It's a strawman he invented so he can beat the "credit cards are evil" drum. Literally nobody in the investment/personal finance world has made this claim.

ender

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #57 on: May 13, 2021, 06:24:26 AM »
It'ss easy to sound like a moron on twitter because all nuance must be edited out. The distilled soundbites are often more extreme than the original message, and often structured in such a way to make it difficult to argue with them. Leading with the idea that "millionaires didn't get all their money with credit cards" is an example of a common persuasive technique that's often used in advertising. You start off with something nobody can disagree with and then make a bad analogy with it to prove your point.  Lots of us on here can see through this argument and might be pissed off by it a little, because it's blatantly manipulative and lazy.

He's given this statement many times over the years, not just on Twitter. It's a strawman he invented so he can beat the "credit cards are evil" drum. Literally nobody in the investment/personal finance world has made this claim.

How is this a strawman?

If you listen to his show, read his books, or otherwise have any idea what Dave Ramsey's target audience is you'll realize that a major portion of his audience has credit card debt/vehicle loans and otherwise are financially irresponsible.

For the vast majority of his audience credit cards have brought nothing but pain and harm.

It's also absolutely true that you don't become a millionaire by min/maxing credit card points. This isn't a strawman at all (I suppose technically back in the glory days of churning, you could have?).

Morning Glory

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #58 on: May 13, 2021, 07:24:17 AM »
It'ss easy to sound like a moron on twitter because all nuance must be edited out. The distilled soundbites are often more extreme than the original message, and often structured in such a way to make it difficult to argue with them. Leading with the idea that "millionaires didn't get all their money with credit cards" is an example of a common persuasive technique that's often used in advertising. You start off with something nobody can disagree with and then make a bad analogy with it to prove your point.  Lots of us on here can see through this argument and might be pissed off by it a little, because it's blatantly manipulative and lazy.

He's given this statement many times over the years, not just on Twitter. It's a strawman he invented so he can beat the "credit cards are evil" drum. Literally nobody in the investment/personal finance world has made this claim.

How is this a strawman?

If you listen to his show, read his books, or otherwise have any idea what Dave Ramsey's target audience is you'll realize that a major portion of his audience has credit card debt/vehicle loans and otherwise are financially irresponsible.

For the vast majority of his audience credit cards have brought nothing but pain and harm.

It's also absolutely true that you don't become a millionaire by min/maxing credit card points. This isn't a strawman at all (I suppose technically back in the glory days of churning, you could have?).

No, not a straw man. I couldn't quite figure out which one it was. A red herring maybe?

Metalcat

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #59 on: May 13, 2021, 07:30:05 AM »
No, he is not damned.  I don't believe in the concept of damnation.

I do, but my version of being damned is that if you are an asshole, then you are damned to living as an asshole, which is a horrible way to live.

Chris22

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #60 on: May 13, 2021, 08:19:32 AM »
It'ss easy to sound like a moron on twitter because all nuance must be edited out. The distilled soundbites are often more extreme than the original message, and often structured in such a way to make it difficult to argue with them. Leading with the idea that "millionaires didn't get all their money with credit cards" is an example of a common persuasive technique that's often used in advertising. You start off with something nobody can disagree with and then make a bad analogy with it to prove your point.  Lots of us on here can see through this argument and might be pissed off by it a little, because it's blatantly manipulative and lazy.

He's given this statement many times over the years, not just on Twitter. It's a strawman he invented so he can beat the "credit cards are evil" drum. Literally nobody in the investment/personal finance world has made this claim.

How is this a strawman?

If you listen to his show, read his books, or otherwise have any idea what Dave Ramsey's target audience is you'll realize that a major portion of his audience has credit card debt/vehicle loans and otherwise are financially irresponsible.

For the vast majority of his audience credit cards have brought nothing but pain and harm.

It's also absolutely true that you don't become a millionaire by min/maxing credit card points. This isn't a strawman at all (I suppose technically back in the glory days of churning, you could have?).

No, not a straw man. I couldn't quite figure out which one it was. A red herring maybe?

The straw man is “no one got rich from credit card incentives”.

No shit. That’s not the assertion. Credit card incentives don’t make you rich.

But what they do is reward you with things that you were probably going to buy anyways for doing something you were going to do anyways. Or, they allow you to do something for free/nearly free that you wouldn’t have been able to do otherwise.

My wife and I attended a family wedding in coastal France a couple years ago. Using hotel points from our credit card, we extended our stay to include three nights in Paris at the Park Hyatt hotel, which usually costs €1000+ a night. Know what it cost us?  ~€150. Using hotel points.

Or, every year at least once we fly (me + wife + kids) to see my family on the east coast. I could buy tickets, which would cost around $200-300 ea, orrrr I could fly for free using miles earned on my credit card while enjoying perks such as free checked bags. No brainer.

ender

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #61 on: May 13, 2021, 08:25:15 AM »
It'ss easy to sound like a moron on twitter because all nuance must be edited out. The distilled soundbites are often more extreme than the original message, and often structured in such a way to make it difficult to argue with them. Leading with the idea that "millionaires didn't get all their money with credit cards" is an example of a common persuasive technique that's often used in advertising. You start off with something nobody can disagree with and then make a bad analogy with it to prove your point.  Lots of us on here can see through this argument and might be pissed off by it a little, because it's blatantly manipulative and lazy.

He's given this statement many times over the years, not just on Twitter. It's a strawman he invented so he can beat the "credit cards are evil" drum. Literally nobody in the investment/personal finance world has made this claim.

How is this a strawman?

If you listen to his show, read his books, or otherwise have any idea what Dave Ramsey's target audience is you'll realize that a major portion of his audience has credit card debt/vehicle loans and otherwise are financially irresponsible.

For the vast majority of his audience credit cards have brought nothing but pain and harm.

It's also absolutely true that you don't become a millionaire by min/maxing credit card points. This isn't a strawman at all (I suppose technically back in the glory days of churning, you could have?).

No, not a straw man. I couldn't quite figure out which one it was. A red herring maybe?

The straw man is “no one got rich from credit card incentives”.

No shit. That’s not the assertion. Credit card incentives don’t make you rich.

But what they do is reward you with things that you were probably going to buy anyways for doing something you were going to do anyways. Or, they allow you to do something for free/nearly free that you wouldn’t have been able to do otherwise.

My wife and I attended a family wedding in coastal France a couple years ago. Using hotel points from our credit card, we extended our stay to include three nights in Paris at the Park Hyatt hotel, which usually costs €1000+ a night. Know what it cost us?  ~€150. Using hotel points.

Or, every year at least once we fly (me + wife + kids) to see my family on the east coast. I could buy tickets, which would cost around $200-300 ea, orrrr I could fly for free using miles earned on my credit card while enjoying perks such as free checked bags. No brainer.

Dave Ramsey's target audience is not people like you.

Not sure why that's so hard for you to understand.

Chris22

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #62 on: May 13, 2021, 08:33:45 AM »
Because in his efforts to distill out all nuance, he’s blatantly dishonest. “Rich people don’t use credit cards”?  What the actual fuck, how do people read that and believe anything he says?

It would be like saying “thin people never eat sweets.”  It’s just a bald faced lie. And if anyone had any common sense at all it would torpedo any credibility he had on anything.

ender

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #63 on: May 13, 2021, 08:36:22 AM »
Well, let me know when your bad advice causes positive life changing impacts across hundreds of thousands or millions of people's lives.

It would be like saying “thin people never eat sweets.”  It’s just a bald faced lie. And if anyone had any common sense at all it would torpedo any credibility he had on anything.

The more appropriate version of this analogy would be, "you don't lose weight by eating chocolate cookies."


Chris22

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #64 on: May 13, 2021, 08:41:39 AM »
Well, let me know when your bad advice causes positive life changing impacts across hundreds of thousands or millions of people's lives.

That’s bullshit and you know it.

What you really mean is “Dave can’t sell ‘use money responsibly and don’t spend more than you can afford to’ to millions of people so he has to make up stupid shit instead to monetize it.”

Quote
It would be like saying “thin people never eat sweets.”  It’s just a bald faced lie. And if anyone had any common sense at all it would torpedo any credibility he had on anything.

The more appropriate version of this analogy would be, "you don't lose weight by eating chocolate cookies."

Uh, no, that’s not what he said.

ender

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #65 on: May 13, 2021, 08:45:09 AM »
That’s bullshit and you know it.

What you really mean is “Dave can’t sell ‘use money responsibly and don’t spend more than you can afford to’ to millions of people so he has to make up stupid shit instead to monetize it.”


Which part are you saying is bullshit?

That Dave Ramsey has not had a significant positive life impact on many people?

Chris22

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #66 on: May 13, 2021, 08:52:37 AM »
That’s bullshit and you know it.

What you really mean is “Dave can’t sell ‘use money responsibly and don’t spend more than you can afford to’ to millions of people so he has to make up stupid shit instead to monetize it.”


Which part are you saying is bullshit?

That Dave Ramsey has not had a significant positive life impact on many people?

The he intentionally oversimplifies and obfuscates to make a marketable product, because if you remove the extremism you’re left with common sense which isn’t a salable product.


Or he actually believes it, and really is a fucking moron.

ChickenStash

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #67 on: May 13, 2021, 08:54:40 AM »
I view it in the same vein as drinking alcohol. There are many articles out there saying drinking a glass of wine a day may slightly improve health in various ways. That's a good thing, but no one in their right mind would suggest that plan to an alcoholic. The risks of a relapse far outweigh any benefit they might receive so the prevailing advice would be to just not do it.

Obviously it's a massive oversimplification, but that is often what is needed for folks that can't grasp the nuance of how things work. 

Chris22

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #68 on: May 13, 2021, 08:58:06 AM »
I view it in the same vein as drinking alcohol. There are many articles out there saying drinking a glass of wine a day may slightly improve health in various ways. That's a good thing, but no one in their right mind would suggest that plan to an alcoholic. The risks of a relapse far outweigh any benefit they might receive so the prevailing advice would be to just not do it.

Obviously it's a massive oversimplification, but that is often what is needed for folks that can't grasp the nuance of how things work.

Sure. But if you went to AA and they said “anyone you see who is drinking has a serious problem and are doing something very wrong” would you believe them?  Would they maintain a shred of credibility in your mind?

Or would the more correct message be “you have a disease and therefore cannot use alcohol safely, but there are other people who are able to drink a moderate amount and maintain their health”? 


Maybe I just have a lower tolerance for people lying right to my face. 

ChickenStash

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #69 on: May 13, 2021, 09:03:01 AM »
I view it in the same vein as drinking alcohol. There are many articles out there saying drinking a glass of wine a day may slightly improve health in various ways. That's a good thing, but no one in their right mind would suggest that plan to an alcoholic. The risks of a relapse far outweigh any benefit they might receive so the prevailing advice would be to just not do it.

Obviously it's a massive oversimplification, but that is often what is needed for folks that can't grasp the nuance of how things work.

Sure. But if you went to AA and they said “anyone you see who is drinking has a serious problem and are doing something very wrong” would you believe them?  Would they maintain a shred of credibility in your mind?

Or would the more correct message be “you have a disease and therefore cannot use alcohol safely, but there are other people who are able to drink a moderate amount and maintain their health”? 


Maybe I just have a lower tolerance for people lying right to my face.

He's talking to his audience which are people already at the AA meeting. So, if I was in such shape that I thought I needed to go to an AA meeting, yeah, they would be more often right to say that having a drink in my hand is a serious problem.


Chris22

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #70 on: May 13, 2021, 09:05:01 AM »
I view it in the same vein as drinking alcohol. There are many articles out there saying drinking a glass of wine a day may slightly improve health in various ways. That's a good thing, but no one in their right mind would suggest that plan to an alcoholic. The risks of a relapse far outweigh any benefit they might receive so the prevailing advice would be to just not do it.

Obviously it's a massive oversimplification, but that is often what is needed for folks that can't grasp the nuance of how things work.

Sure. But if you went to AA and they said “anyone you see who is drinking has a serious problem and are doing something very wrong” would you believe them?  Would they maintain a shred of credibility in your mind?

Or would the more correct message be “you have a disease and therefore cannot use alcohol safely, but there are other people who are able to drink a moderate amount and maintain their health”? 


Maybe I just have a lower tolerance for people lying right to my face.

He's talking to his audience which are people already at the AA meeting. So, if I was in such shape that I thought I needed to go to an AA meeting, yeah, they would be more often right to say that having a drink in my hand is a serious problem.

Yes but my point is when they say everyone else with a drink in their hand, not at the AA meeting, is wrong and unhealthy, would you believe them?  Would that burn any credibility with you?

Morning Glory

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #71 on: May 13, 2021, 09:07:42 AM »
It would be like saying "nobody ever lost 100lbs by eating chocolate cookies". Theoretically it's possible, but not the healthiest method. I bet someone could get to a million with credit cards if they really had nothing better to do with their time and wanted to prove a point. It would make for a pretty good blog actually.

A large portion of the population could do with fewer cookies and credit cards. I know that Dave's advice helps people. I've even recommended his book before, to people who are in debt and don't have any strategy. I just can't stand absolutism and sound bites and misogyny, so Dave is not for me.

Now, a question: do you think gurus like Dave contribute to the dumbing down of the populace? What can we do about it?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 09:12:36 AM by Morning Glory »

EvenSteven

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #72 on: May 13, 2021, 09:08:35 AM »
It'ss easy to sound like a moron on twitter because all nuance must be edited out. The distilled soundbites are often more extreme than the original message, and often structured in such a way to make it difficult to argue with them. Leading with the idea that "millionaires didn't get all their money with credit cards" is an example of a common persuasive technique that's often used in advertising. You start off with something nobody can disagree with and then make a bad analogy with it to prove your point.  Lots of us on here can see through this argument and might be pissed off by it a little, because it's blatantly manipulative and lazy.

He's given this statement many times over the years, not just on Twitter. It's a strawman he invented so he can beat the "credit cards are evil" drum. Literally nobody in the investment/personal finance world has made this claim.

How is this a strawman?

If you listen to his show, read his books, or otherwise have any idea what Dave Ramsey's target audience is you'll realize that a major portion of his audience has credit card debt/vehicle loans and otherwise are financially irresponsible.

For the vast majority of his audience credit cards have brought nothing but pain and harm.

It's also absolutely true that you don't become a millionaire by min/maxing credit card points. This isn't a strawman at all (I suppose technically back in the glory days of churning, you could have?).

Are there people out there earnestly arguing that you can become a millionaire solely through credit card points?

ender

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #73 on: May 13, 2021, 09:10:51 AM »


Are there people out there earnestly arguing that you can become a millionaire solely through credit card points?

If you listen to his show it's quite common for people to have a ton of credit card debt and use "but points!" as a rationale for why they should keep the cards.


ChickenStash

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #74 on: May 13, 2021, 09:14:30 AM »
I view it in the same vein as drinking alcohol. There are many articles out there saying drinking a glass of wine a day may slightly improve health in various ways. That's a good thing, but no one in their right mind would suggest that plan to an alcoholic. The risks of a relapse far outweigh any benefit they might receive so the prevailing advice would be to just not do it.

Obviously it's a massive oversimplification, but that is often what is needed for folks that can't grasp the nuance of how things work.

Sure. But if you went to AA and they said “anyone you see who is drinking has a serious problem and are doing something very wrong” would you believe them?  Would they maintain a shred of credibility in your mind?

Or would the more correct message be “you have a disease and therefore cannot use alcohol safely, but there are other people who are able to drink a moderate amount and maintain their health”? 


Maybe I just have a lower tolerance for people lying right to my face.

He's talking to his audience which are people already at the AA meeting. So, if I was in such shape that I thought I needed to go to an AA meeting, yeah, they would be more often right to say that having a drink in my hand is a serious problem.

Yes but my point is when they say everyone else with a drink in their hand, not at the AA meeting, is wrong and unhealthy, would you believe them?  Would that burn any credibility with you?

Turning back towards, CCs, no, his statement doesn't lose credibility. Given the level of consumer debt out there and the negative impact on people's lives his opinion that all/most people that use them are "unhealthy" and would be better off not using them has merit.

Morning Glory

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #75 on: May 13, 2021, 09:17:21 AM »


Are there people out there earnestly arguing that you can become a millionaire solely through credit card points?

If you listen to his show it's quite common for people to have a ton of credit card debt and use "but points!" as a rationale for why they should keep the cards.

It's a damned shame that so many otherwise educated people know so little about finance and seem to be incapable of critical thinking.

EvenSteven

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #76 on: May 13, 2021, 09:20:42 AM »


Are there people out there earnestly arguing that you can become a millionaire solely through credit card points?

If you listen to his show it's quite common for people to have a ton of credit card debt and use "but points!" as a rationale for why they should keep the cards.

I don't listen to his show, but I find that very easy to believe. That doesn't answer my question, though. I contend that there is not anyone earnestly arguing that you can become a millionaire solely through credit cards, which is what the original post by Dave was literally arguing against.

You can agree with his overall point or message. His message can be objectively correct. But he still used a strawman to argue that point.

ender

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #77 on: May 13, 2021, 09:32:04 AM »


Are there people out there earnestly arguing that you can become a millionaire solely through credit card points?

If you listen to his show it's quite common for people to have a ton of credit card debt and use "but points!" as a rationale for why they should keep the cards.

It's a damned shame that so many otherwise educated people know so little about finance and seem to be incapable of critical thinking.

Knowledge is a fraction the battle for behavior change.

mckaylabaloney

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #78 on: May 13, 2021, 09:36:54 AM »
It'ss easy to sound like a moron on twitter because all nuance must be edited out. The distilled soundbites are often more extreme than the original message, and often structured in such a way to make it difficult to argue with them. Leading with the idea that "millionaires didn't get all their money with credit cards" is an example of a common persuasive technique that's often used in advertising. You start off with something nobody can disagree with and then make a bad analogy with it to prove your point.  Lots of us on here can see through this argument and might be pissed off by it a little, because it's blatantly manipulative and lazy.

He's given this statement many times over the years, not just on Twitter. It's a strawman he invented so he can beat the "credit cards are evil" drum. Literally nobody in the investment/personal finance world has made this claim.

How is this a strawman?

If you listen to his show, read his books, or otherwise have any idea what Dave Ramsey's target audience is you'll realize that a major portion of his audience has credit card debt/vehicle loans and otherwise are financially irresponsible.

For the vast majority of his audience credit cards have brought nothing but pain and harm.

It's also absolutely true that you don't become a millionaire by min/maxing credit card points. This isn't a strawman at all (I suppose technically back in the glory days of churning, you could have?).

No, not a straw man. I couldn't quite figure out which one it was. A red herring maybe?

It's a classic strawman.

Whether your statement is a strawman argument isn't about whether the statement you're making is true (it usually is, because...that's the whole point of a strawman) -- it's about whether the claim you're attacking is a claim that anyone is actually making. If you try to refute a claim, but you replace the claim the other person is actually making with a different claim that's easier to attack, that's a strawman argument.

Here, the claim Dave's purportedly refuting is that it's possible to become rich via credit card points/miles. This is a strawman because no one is making this claim: rather, people simply claim that it's possible to benefit from credit card points/miles. Dave rejects this claim because he thinks (or at least tells his audience) that no one, regardless of their financial situation, impulse control, spending, etc. should use credit cards. But instead of attacking the actual argument -- that people can benefit from using credit cards* -- he attacks the fake argument (the strawman) he set up -- that people can become rich from using credit cards. Like you already identified, it's lazy.

This isn't to say that the ideas underlying his tweet are entirely wrong; he's certainly right that plenty of people, and probably most of his audience, shouldn't use credit cards at all, and incorrectly believe that the benefits they're getting from points outweigh the costs they're incurring. But he's wrong in saying that nobody should use credit cards, and "rich people don't fall for stupid credit card tricks" is...very silly.

*He does attack this actual argument sometimes, but AFAIK his argument mainly boils down to "you're lying to yourself because eventually you're going to wind up carrying a balance." I can understand why he generalizes in this way -- it's probably true for much of his audience, and creating exceptions probably wouldn't help them -- but it's obviously not true for everyone, including lots of people around these parts.

kite

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #79 on: May 13, 2021, 09:44:19 AM »
The trouble with points is described deep into this article.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/05/magazine/points-guy-travel-rewards.html

"But of course, value always comes from somewhere. If you trace the thread back on any one of these businesses, it’s always the same deal: The poor underwrite the fantasies of the middle class, who in turn underwrite the realities of the rich. When credit cards charge high interchange fees, they pass the cost of loyalty programs on to merchants, who in turn pass it back to customers by building the fees into their sticker prices. Those who pay with credit can earn it back in points. Those who pay with debit or cash wind up subsidizing someone else’s free vacation. According to a 2010 policy paper by economists at the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston, the average cash-using household paid $149 over the course of a year to card-using households, while each card-using household received $1,133 from cash users, partially in the form of rewards. It remains a regressive transfer to this day."

Ramsey isn't a moron.  He may be despicable on many levels.  So are points programs and all the little indignities in life that transfer wealth from the poor to the rich through things like lotteries, regressive tax policies, worker exploitation, etc.
Bottom line for individuals is that you won't spend your way to wealth. The bottom line for the banks is that it doesn't even matter if customers pay off their balance in full each month. They've still made money from each purchase. 

Morning Glory

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #80 on: May 13, 2021, 09:46:54 AM »
It'ss easy to sound like a moron on twitter because all nuance must be edited out. The distilled soundbites are often more extreme than the original message, and often structured in such a way to make it difficult to argue with them. Leading with the idea that "millionaires didn't get all their money with credit cards" is an example of a common persuasive technique that's often used in advertising. You start off with something nobody can disagree with and then make a bad analogy with it to prove your point.  Lots of us on here can see through this argument and might be pissed off by it a little, because it's blatantly manipulative and lazy.

He's given this statement many times over the years, not just on Twitter. It's a strawman he invented so he can beat the "credit cards are evil" drum. Literally nobody in the investment/personal finance world has made this claim.

How is this a strawman?

If you listen to his show, read his books, or otherwise have any idea what Dave Ramsey's target audience is you'll realize that a major portion of his audience has credit card debt/vehicle loans and otherwise are financially irresponsible.

For the vast majority of his audience credit cards have brought nothing but pain and harm.

It's also absolutely true that you don't become a millionaire by min/maxing credit card points. This isn't a strawman at all (I suppose technically back in the glory days of churning, you could have?).

No, not a straw man. I couldn't quite figure out which one it was. A red herring maybe?

It's a classic strawman.

Whether your statement is a strawman argument isn't about whether the statement you're making is true (it usually is, because...that's the whole point of a strawman) -- it's about whether the claim you're attacking is a claim that anyone is actually making. If you try to refute a claim, but you replace the claim the other person is actually making with a different claim that's easier to attack, that's a strawman argument.

Here, the claim Dave's purportedly refuting is that it's possible to become rich via credit card points/miles. This is a strawman because no one is making this claim: rather, people simply claim that it's possible to benefit from credit card points/miles. Dave rejects this claim because he thinks (or at least tells his audience) that no one, regardless of their financial situation, impulse control, spending, etc. should use credit cards. But instead of attacking the actual argument -- that people can benefit from using credit cards* -- he attacks the fake argument (the strawman) he set up -- that people can become rich from using credit cards. Like you already identified, it's lazy.

This isn't to say that the ideas underlying his tweet are entirely wrong; he's certainly right that plenty of people, and probably most of his audience, shouldn't use credit cards at all, and incorrectly believe that the benefits they're getting from points outweigh the costs they're incurring. But he's wrong in saying that nobody should use credit cards, and "rich people don't fall for stupid credit card tricks" is...very silly.

*He does attack this actual argument sometimes, but AFAIK his argument mainly boils down to "you're lying to yourself because eventually you're going to wind up carrying a balance." I can understand why he generalizes in this way -- it's probably true for much of his audience, and creating exceptions probably wouldn't help them -- but it's obviously not true for everyone, including lots of people around these parts.

Thank you for the long and detailed reply!. I didn't have enough context to tell if he was actually arguing against someone else's claim or not.

ericrugiero

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #81 on: May 13, 2021, 09:53:39 AM »
*He does attack this actual argument sometimes, but AFAIK his argument mainly boils down to "you're lying to yourself because eventually you're going to wind up carrying a balance." I can understand why he generalizes in this way -- it's probably true for much of his audience, and creating exceptions probably wouldn't help them -- but it's obviously not true for everyone, including lots of people around these parts.

I've never heard him say that EVERYONE will eventually end up carrying a balance.  He does point out that risk.  He also says that people tend to spend more using a credit card.  So basically, risk of high interest rates and almost surely spending more on stuff you don't need outweighs the benefits of the points you would earn. 

I will say, I've never paid a dime of CC interest.  Mine are all set up for automatic payment and I've never carried a balance.  But, I do think I have spent more money than I would have if I was paying cash. 

mckaylabaloney

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #82 on: May 13, 2021, 10:10:21 AM »
*He does attack this actual argument sometimes, but AFAIK his argument mainly boils down to "you're lying to yourself because eventually you're going to wind up carrying a balance." I can understand why he generalizes in this way -- it's probably true for much of his audience, and creating exceptions probably wouldn't help them -- but it's obviously not true for everyone, including lots of people around these parts.

I've never heard him say that EVERYONE will eventually end up carrying a balance.  He does point out that risk.  He also says that people tend to spend more using a credit card.  So basically, risk of high interest rates and almost surely spending more on stuff you don't need outweighs the benefits of the points you would earn. 

I will say, I've never paid a dime of CC interest.  Mine are all set up for automatic payment and I've never carried a balance.  But, I do think I have spent more money than I would have if I was paying cash.

That's fair; I don't follow him closely enough to know the full extent of his arguments w/r/t credit cards. I just know he leans heavily on the interest thing in some of his materials. At any rate, he's right about the risk of interest, especially as to his own audience, and he's right that even financially responsible people may spend more using plastic. I mainly take issue with his rhetoric, generalizing, etc. (though, as I said above, I understand how generalizing may be beneficial to his particular audience).

DadJokes

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #83 on: May 13, 2021, 10:13:55 AM »
*He does attack this actual argument sometimes, but AFAIK his argument mainly boils down to "you're lying to yourself because eventually you're going to wind up carrying a balance." I can understand why he generalizes in this way -- it's probably true for much of his audience, and creating exceptions probably wouldn't help them -- but it's obviously not true for everyone, including lots of people around these parts.

I've never heard him say that EVERYONE will eventually end up carrying a balance.  He does point out that risk.  He also says that people tend to spend more using a credit card.  So basically, risk of high interest rates and almost surely spending more on stuff you don't need outweighs the benefits of the points you would earn. 

I will say, I've never paid a dime of CC interest.  Mine are all set up for automatic payment and I've never carried a balance.  But, I do think I have spent more money than I would have if I was paying cash.

When someone says that they never carry a balance and get a lot of points from credit cards, he says something along the lines of, "Banks have giant buildings for a reason. They're smarter than you, so you're not going to win if you play the points game."

That's basically saying that everyone will eventually carry a balance.

Or he'll trot out some stat about how "most miles never get used," or the line that you noted, "studies show that people spend more when they pay with credit cards."

kite

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #84 on: May 13, 2021, 10:56:33 AM »
*He does attack this actual argument sometimes, but AFAIK his argument mainly boils down to "you're lying to yourself because eventually you're going to wind up carrying a balance." I can understand why he generalizes in this way -- it's probably true for much of his audience, and creating exceptions probably wouldn't help them -- but it's obviously not true for everyone, including lots of people around these parts.

I've never heard him say that EVERYONE will eventually end up carrying a balance.  He does point out that risk.  He also says that people tend to spend more using a credit card.  So basically, risk of high interest rates and almost surely spending more on stuff you don't need outweighs the benefits of the points you would earn. 

I will say, I've never paid a dime of CC interest.  Mine are all set up for automatic payment and I've never carried a balance.  But, I do think I have spent more money than I would have if I was paying cash.

When someone says that they never carry a balance and get a lot of points from credit cards, he says something along the lines of, "Banks have giant buildings for a reason. They're smarter than you, so you're not going to win if you play the points game."

That's basically saying that everyone will eventually carry a balance.

Or he'll trot out some stat about how "most miles never get used," or the line that you noted, "studies show that people spend more when they pay with credit cards."

They don't need anyone to carry a balance in order to be profitable. Their earnings aren't primarily the interest and fees that consumers pay in their monthly bills.  Their profit is in the transaction costs to the retailer.  There are interchange fees, assessment fees and processing fees.  All these layers of costs get baked into the sticker price of goods & services. 
Even debit card transactions are profitable for the banks because they result in fees to the retailer.   
We can believe that since we are mustachian, only shop with a list, never carry a balance and redeem our points for valuable goods or experiences that we aren't adding to the banks' profits.  But we'd be wrong. Every single thing we've purchased with a credit or debit card was marked up 5-10% to cover the overhead.  Even if you pay cash, you've paid that overhead if you don't get a discount for paying cash. Every single purchase. 

mckaylabaloney

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #85 on: May 13, 2021, 11:21:13 AM »
*He does attack this actual argument sometimes, but AFAIK his argument mainly boils down to "you're lying to yourself because eventually you're going to wind up carrying a balance." I can understand why he generalizes in this way -- it's probably true for much of his audience, and creating exceptions probably wouldn't help them -- but it's obviously not true for everyone, including lots of people around these parts.

I've never heard him say that EVERYONE will eventually end up carrying a balance.  He does point out that risk.  He also says that people tend to spend more using a credit card.  So basically, risk of high interest rates and almost surely spending more on stuff you don't need outweighs the benefits of the points you would earn. 

I will say, I've never paid a dime of CC interest.  Mine are all set up for automatic payment and I've never carried a balance.  But, I do think I have spent more money than I would have if I was paying cash.

When someone says that they never carry a balance and get a lot of points from credit cards, he says something along the lines of, "Banks have giant buildings for a reason. They're smarter than you, so you're not going to win if you play the points game."

That's basically saying that everyone will eventually carry a balance.

Or he'll trot out some stat about how "most miles never get used," or the line that you noted, "studies show that people spend more when they pay with credit cards."

They don't need anyone to carry a balance in order to be profitable. Their earnings aren't primarily the interest and fees that consumers pay in their monthly bills.  Their profit is in the transaction costs to the retailer.  There are interchange fees, assessment fees and processing fees.  All these layers of costs get baked into the sticker price of goods & services. 
Even debit card transactions are profitable for the banks because they result in fees to the retailer.   
We can believe that since we are mustachian, only shop with a list, never carry a balance and redeem our points for valuable goods or experiences that we aren't adding to the banks' profits.  But we'd be wrong. Every single thing we've purchased with a credit or debit card was marked up 5-10% to cover the overhead.  Even if you pay cash, you've paid that overhead if you don't get a discount for paying cash. Every single purchase.

Yeah, but this isn't Dave's argument against credit cards. This is a collective action/political problem, and his argument (as far as I'm aware?) is entirely individual: when you buy things using a credit card or debit card, you're either going to (1) end up paying money to the bank in interest, or (2) spend more than you would have spent had you paid in cash. (Or both.)

It's true that our individual uses of credit cards contribute to a system where banks profit and we all pay higher prices as a result. It's true that cash payers end up subsidizing those of us who seek out points. I don't know whether it's also true that even those of us who do well at profiting from the points system are still losing out in the end due to markups.* And, I don't know whether all of this means that we should stop using cards -- seems to me like it's down to your personal ethics, partly, and also a collective action problem (i.e. we're paying those markups whether or not we pay with a card, so we're individually better off getting the points unless everyone else also stops paying with cards and the system changes).

*Do you have a source on your 5-10% markup number? Interchange fees are generally 1-4% AFAIK. I don't know what other fees cost. And I personally have no clue whether retailers pass on all of those fees, and then some, to consumers, or whether they eat some of the cost themselves. Maybe there are studies on this? I haven't looked.

DadJokes

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #86 on: May 13, 2021, 11:22:40 AM »
*He does attack this actual argument sometimes, but AFAIK his argument mainly boils down to "you're lying to yourself because eventually you're going to wind up carrying a balance." I can understand why he generalizes in this way -- it's probably true for much of his audience, and creating exceptions probably wouldn't help them -- but it's obviously not true for everyone, including lots of people around these parts.

I've never heard him say that EVERYONE will eventually end up carrying a balance.  He does point out that risk.  He also says that people tend to spend more using a credit card.  So basically, risk of high interest rates and almost surely spending more on stuff you don't need outweighs the benefits of the points you would earn. 

I will say, I've never paid a dime of CC interest.  Mine are all set up for automatic payment and I've never carried a balance.  But, I do think I have spent more money than I would have if I was paying cash.

When someone says that they never carry a balance and get a lot of points from credit cards, he says something along the lines of, "Banks have giant buildings for a reason. They're smarter than you, so you're not going to win if you play the points game."

That's basically saying that everyone will eventually carry a balance.

Or he'll trot out some stat about how "most miles never get used," or the line that you noted, "studies show that people spend more when they pay with credit cards."

They don't need anyone to carry a balance in order to be profitable. Their earnings aren't primarily the interest and fees that consumers pay in their monthly bills.  Their profit is in the transaction costs to the retailer.  There are interchange fees, assessment fees and processing fees.  All these layers of costs get baked into the sticker price of goods & services. 
Even debit card transactions are profitable for the banks because they result in fees to the retailer.   
We can believe that since we are mustachian, only shop with a list, never carry a balance and redeem our points for valuable goods or experiences that we aren't adding to the banks' profits.  But we'd be wrong. Every single thing we've purchased with a credit or debit card was marked up 5-10% to cover the overhead.  Even if you pay cash, you've paid that overhead if you don't get a discount for paying cash. Every single purchase.

That's not what he implies with that argument, however. If both the banks and I benefit from a transaction, why would that be a reason not to engage in the transaction? He's implying that it's a win/lose transaction, and the banks are going to be the ones who win.

YttriumNitrate

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #87 on: May 13, 2021, 12:03:59 PM »
We can believe that since we are mustachian, only shop with a list, never carry a balance and redeem our points for valuable goods or experiences that we aren't adding to the banks' profits.  But we'd be wrong. Every single thing we've purchased with a credit or debit card was marked up 5-10% to cover the overhead.  Even if you pay cash, you've paid that overhead if you don't get a discount for paying cash. Every single purchase.

Interestingly, there is data that suggests the fees charged to merchants by credit cards may be less than the business would otherwise spend dealing with cash.

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180130005244/en/New-Research-IHL-Group-Shows-Retailers%25E2%2580%2599-Cash-handling/?feedref=JjAwJuNHiystnCoBq_hl-fLcmYSZsqlD_XPbplM8Ta6D8R-QU5o2AvY8bhI9uvWSD8DYIYv4TIC1g1u0AKcacnnViVjtb72bOP4-4nHK5iej_DoWrIhfD31cAxcB60aE

wageslave23

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #88 on: May 13, 2021, 01:11:33 PM »
I think his message and meaning behind the tweet is much more simple and benign than some of you would like to believe.   Credit card points never caused someone to be financially successful - but they have caused financial ruin for many. The risks outweigh the rewards for most people.

I dont think it's a straw man argument.  But if it is, its with a purpose.  Making a blatantly obvious true statement in order to show people that using a credit card is not the end all be all, and that its not a big deal to forego using one for the points. 

Not a DR fan, but the tweet is harmless
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 01:15:55 PM by wageslave23 »

mckaylabaloney

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #89 on: May 13, 2021, 01:26:24 PM »
We can believe that since we are mustachian, only shop with a list, never carry a balance and redeem our points for valuable goods or experiences that we aren't adding to the banks' profits.  But we'd be wrong. Every single thing we've purchased with a credit or debit card was marked up 5-10% to cover the overhead.  Even if you pay cash, you've paid that overhead if you don't get a discount for paying cash. Every single purchase.

Interestingly, there is data that suggests the fees charged to merchants by credit cards may be less than the business would otherwise spend dealing with cash.

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180130005244/en/New-Research-IHL-Group-Shows-Retailers%25E2%2580%2599-Cash-handling/?feedref=JjAwJuNHiystnCoBq_hl-fLcmYSZsqlD_XPbplM8Ta6D8R-QU5o2AvY8bhI9uvWSD8DYIYv4TIC1g1u0AKcacnnViVjtb72bOP4-4nHK5iej_DoWrIhfD31cAxcB60aE

Interesting. My first question was: is IHL Group working on behalf of the banks and processing companies, to make interchange fees seem not so bad? But they seem to do research on behalf of retail, so that seems more reliable, although the distribution was apparently underwritten by companies that offer merchants ways to make their cash handling more efficient, so...who knows. At any rate, I'm woefully unequipped to evaluate their conclusions. Maybe the correct conclusion is that all types of transactions have hidden and not-so-hidden costs, and it's not necessarily as straightforward as cash=cheap, cards=expensive ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Morning Glory

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #90 on: May 13, 2021, 01:33:57 PM »
*He does attack this actual argument sometimes, but AFAIK his argument mainly boils down to "you're lying to yourself because eventually you're going to wind up carrying a balance." I can understand why he generalizes in this way -- it's probably true for much of his audience, and creating exceptions probably wouldn't help them -- but it's obviously not true for everyone, including lots of people around these parts.

I've never heard him say that EVERYONE will eventually end up carrying a balance.  He does point out that risk.  He also says that people tend to spend more using a credit card.  So basically, risk of high interest rates and almost surely spending more on stuff you don't need outweighs the benefits of the points you would earn. 

I will say, I've never paid a dime of CC interest.  Mine are all set up for automatic payment and I've never carried a balance.  But, I do think I have spent more money than I would have if I was paying cash.

When someone says that they never carry a balance and get a lot of points from credit cards, he says something along the lines of, "Banks have giant buildings for a reason. They're smarter than you, so you're not going to win if you play the points game."

That's basically saying that everyone will eventually carry a balance.

Or he'll trot out some stat about how "most miles never get used," or the line that you noted, "studies show that people spend more when they pay with credit cards."

They don't need anyone to carry a balance in order to be profitable. Their earnings aren't primarily the interest and fees that consumers pay in their monthly bills.  Their profit is in the transaction costs to the retailer.  There are interchange fees, assessment fees and processing fees.  All these layers of costs get baked into the sticker price of goods & services. 
Even debit card transactions are profitable for the banks because they result in fees to the retailer.   
We can believe that since we are mustachian, only shop with a list, never carry a balance and redeem our points for valuable goods or experiences that we aren't adding to the banks' profits.  But we'd be wrong. Every single thing we've purchased with a credit or debit card was marked up 5-10% to cover the overhead.  Even if you pay cash, you've paid that overhead if you don't get a discount for paying cash. Every single purchase.

Yeah, but this isn't Dave's argument against credit cards. This is a collective action/political problem, and his argument (as far as I'm aware?) is entirely individual: when you buy things using a credit card or debit card, you're either going to (1) end up paying money to the bank in interest, or (2) spend more than you would have spent had you paid in cash. (Or both.)

It's true that our individual uses of credit cards contribute to a system where banks profit and we all pay higher prices as a result. It's true that cash payers end up subsidizing those of us who seek out points. I don't know whether it's also true that even those of us who do well at profiting from the points system are still losing out in the end due to markups.* And, I don't know whether all of this means that we should stop using cards -- seems to me like it's down to your personal ethics, partly, and also a collective action problem (i.e. we're paying those markups whether or not we pay with a card, so we're individually better off getting the points unless everyone else also stops paying with cards and the system changes).

*Do you have a source on your 5-10% markup number? Interchange fees are generally 1-4% AFAIK. I don't know what other fees cost. And I personally have no clue whether retailers pass on all of those fees, and then some, to consumers, or whether they eat some of the cost themselves. Maybe there are studies on this? I haven't looked.

Ooh, prisoner's dilemma.

@kite is right about the credit cards but I have my doubts that Dave is a secret socialist ;)

@YttriumNitrate I saw an article a while back about businesses refusing to take cash, and how cities had to crack down on this because it was harming homeless and other low income people.

@wageslave23 I don't think the tweet was intended harmfully, but I do believe the habit of removing all nuance distilling complex ideas into sound bites is harmful

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #91 on: May 13, 2021, 07:19:17 PM »
We can believe that since we are mustachian, only shop with a list, never carry a balance and redeem our points for valuable goods or experiences that we aren't adding to the banks' profits.  But we'd be wrong. Every single thing we've purchased with a credit or debit card was marked up 5-10% to cover the overhead.  Even if you pay cash, you've paid that overhead if you don't get a discount for paying cash. Every single purchase.

Interestingly, there is data that suggests the fees charged to merchants by credit cards may be less than the business would otherwise spend dealing with cash.

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180130005244/en/New-Research-IHL-Group-Shows-Retailers%25E2%2580%2599-Cash-handling/?feedref=JjAwJuNHiystnCoBq_hl-fLcmYSZsqlD_XPbplM8Ta6D8R-QU5o2AvY8bhI9uvWSD8DYIYv4TIC1g1u0AKcacnnViVjtb72bOP4-4nHK5iej_DoWrIhfD31cAxcB60aE

CC Fees are generally around 3%, not 5-10%. Also, there's some businesses (like ecommerce) where cash isn't practical.

Plina

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #92 on: May 14, 2021, 12:40:43 AM »
We can believe that since we are mustachian, only shop with a list, never carry a balance and redeem our points for valuable goods or experiences that we aren't adding to the banks' profits.  But we'd be wrong. Every single thing we've purchased with a credit or debit card was marked up 5-10% to cover the overhead.  Even if you pay cash, you've paid that overhead if you don't get a discount for paying cash. Every single purchase.

Interestingly, there is data that suggests the fees charged to merchants by credit cards may be less than the business would otherwise spend dealing with cash.

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180130005244/en/New-Research-IHL-Group-Shows-Retailers%25E2%2580%2599-Cash-handling/?feedref=JjAwJuNHiystnCoBq_hl-fLcmYSZsqlD_XPbplM8Ta6D8R-QU5o2AvY8bhI9uvWSD8DYIYv4TIC1g1u0AKcacnnViVjtb72bOP4-4nHK5iej_DoWrIhfD31cAxcB60aE

Interesting. My first question was: is IHL Group working on behalf of the banks and processing companies, to make interchange fees seem not so bad? But they seem to do research on behalf of retail, so that seems more reliable, although the distribution was apparently underwritten by companies that offer merchants ways to make their cash handling more efficient, so...who knows. At any rate, I'm woefully unequipped to evaluate their conclusions. Maybe the correct conclusion is that all types of transactions have hidden and not-so-hidden costs, and it's not necessarily as straightforward as cash=cheap, cards=expensive ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Here many businesses have stopped taking cash due to the coss associated with handling cash. It is cheaper with card payments. People always seems to discount the cost with cash. You have to count the cash which takes time and depending on the amount of cash you either have to get a security company which cost money, or you have to have someone deposit at the bank which also have cost associated with it if you use a deposit box and there is also security risks. Depending on the amount of cash you also have costs associated with the security demands from an insurance and employment perspective.

kite

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #93 on: May 14, 2021, 11:24:04 AM »
Clearly some businesses aren't equipped to take cash. And clearly there is a cost and risk both to the customer and the retailer to use cash.  Neither was my point.  I don't presume to know the mind of Ramsey. Not a close follower of his, but I don't read too much into the tweet that was quoted.  It is, however, objectively true.  MMM would say so.  You can't spend your way to wealth.

With respect to using cards (or phones or wristwatches) to buy stuff, the nature of our present system is somewhat that you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.  If you pay cash/use debit cards and pay full price, you are subsidizing the points schemes through inflated prices, assuming risks and reaping almost no benefit.  So you might as well use a form of reward banking.  But it's no ticket to wealth. Just like ordering extra Arbonne each month to reach a higher level of commissions or earn a 'free' trip, you've paid for it all, yourself, well in advance of reaping any benefit.

If I can pay cash and get a discount, that's the route I'm going.  A 5-10% cash discount from small businesses is my experience.  I pick up take-out for a homebound relative 2x per week.  Two of my local sandwich shops (not chains) offer 7% discount to pay cash.  I got a 10% discount on a vehicle tow just 2 days ago.  We had 8% discounts on work done on our home from three separate contractors for paying cash over the past few years.

frugalnacho

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #94 on: May 14, 2021, 11:46:01 AM »
Damn! Y’all are harsh. I thought MMM was no CCs?

...do we read the same blog and forum?

Anyway, right at the bottom of the page:


Michael in ABQ

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #95 on: May 14, 2021, 02:44:41 PM »
Clearly some businesses aren't equipped to take cash. And clearly there is a cost and risk both to the customer and the retailer to use cash.  Neither was my point.  I don't presume to know the mind of Ramsey. Not a close follower of his, but I don't read too much into the tweet that was quoted.  It is, however, objectively true.  MMM would say so.  You can't spend your way to wealth.

With respect to using cards (or phones or wristwatches) to buy stuff, the nature of our present system is somewhat that you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.  If you pay cash/use debit cards and pay full price, you are subsidizing the points schemes through inflated prices, assuming risks and reaping almost no benefit.  So you might as well use a form of reward banking.  But it's no ticket to wealth. Just like ordering extra Arbonne each month to reach a higher level of commissions or earn a 'free' trip, you've paid for it all, yourself, well in advance of reaping any benefit.

If I can pay cash and get a discount, that's the route I'm going.  A 5-10% cash discount from small businesses is my experience.  I pick up take-out for a homebound relative 2x per week.  Two of my local sandwich shops (not chains) offer 7% discount to pay cash.  I got a 10% discount on a vehicle tow just 2 days ago.  We had 8% discounts on work done on our home from three separate contractors for paying cash over the past few years.

That's the "I'm not going to report this income on my taxes" discount, not the "I'm going to avoid a 3% merchant fee" discount. We use an appliance repair guy that takes cash and offers a discount equivalent to sales tax (about 8%). I too am happy to go pull a few hundred bucks from the ATM to save some money - but it's only those small businesses that are going to offer that discount.

Chris22

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #96 on: May 14, 2021, 03:12:20 PM »
Clearly some businesses aren't equipped to take cash. And clearly there is a cost and risk both to the customer and the retailer to use cash.  Neither was my point.  I don't presume to know the mind of Ramsey. Not a close follower of his, but I don't read too much into the tweet that was quoted.  It is, however, objectively true.  MMM would say so.  You can't spend your way to wealth.

With respect to using cards (or phones or wristwatches) to buy stuff, the nature of our present system is somewhat that you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.  If you pay cash/use debit cards and pay full price, you are subsidizing the points schemes through inflated prices, assuming risks and reaping almost no benefit.  So you might as well use a form of reward banking.  But it's no ticket to wealth. Just like ordering extra Arbonne each month to reach a higher level of commissions or earn a 'free' trip, you've paid for it all, yourself, well in advance of reaping any benefit.

If I can pay cash and get a discount, that's the route I'm going.  A 5-10% cash discount from small businesses is my experience.  I pick up take-out for a homebound relative 2x per week.  Two of my local sandwich shops (not chains) offer 7% discount to pay cash.  I got a 10% discount on a vehicle tow just 2 days ago.  We had 8% discounts on work done on our home from three separate contractors for paying cash over the past few years.

That's the "I'm not going to report this income on my taxes" discount, not the "I'm going to avoid a 3% merchant fee" discount. We use an appliance repair guy that takes cash and offers a discount equivalent to sales tax (about 8%). I too am happy to go pull a few hundred bucks from the ATM to save some money - but it's only those small businesses that are going to offer that discount.

The gun store i frequent (local mom and pop) gives a cash discount (on firearms only, not accessories or anmo) and it truly is the card swipe fee discount; every gun sale is background checked and paperwork filed with the ATF so you can’t fudge the numbers.  I think it’s 5-7% so truly is worth it to get the cash; almost any other time I don’t bother, but I almost never have more than about $50 on me/around the house so have to go out of my way to make large cash purchases.

Which brings up another point; I find those studies that say you spend more on plastic to be suspect; I find paper money tends to go through my hands quickly because it’s “already spent” out of the bank balance. Plastic money gets thought about more because I haven’t yet incurred the impact of spending it yet so I think about it more.

OtherJen

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #97 on: May 14, 2021, 03:39:09 PM »
Clearly some businesses aren't equipped to take cash. And clearly there is a cost and risk both to the customer and the retailer to use cash.  Neither was my point.  I don't presume to know the mind of Ramsey. Not a close follower of his, but I don't read too much into the tweet that was quoted.  It is, however, objectively true.  MMM would say so.  You can't spend your way to wealth.

With respect to using cards (or phones or wristwatches) to buy stuff, the nature of our present system is somewhat that you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.  If you pay cash/use debit cards and pay full price, you are subsidizing the points schemes through inflated prices, assuming risks and reaping almost no benefit.  So you might as well use a form of reward banking.  But it's no ticket to wealth. Just like ordering extra Arbonne each month to reach a higher level of commissions or earn a 'free' trip, you've paid for it all, yourself, well in advance of reaping any benefit.

If I can pay cash and get a discount, that's the route I'm going.  A 5-10% cash discount from small businesses is my experience.  I pick up take-out for a homebound relative 2x per week.  Two of my local sandwich shops (not chains) offer 7% discount to pay cash.  I got a 10% discount on a vehicle tow just 2 days ago.  We had 8% discounts on work done on our home from three separate contractors for paying cash over the past few years.

That's the "I'm not going to report this income on my taxes" discount, not the "I'm going to avoid a 3% merchant fee" discount. We use an appliance repair guy that takes cash and offers a discount equivalent to sales tax (about 8%). I too am happy to go pull a few hundred bucks from the ATM to save some money - but it's only those small businesses that are going to offer that discount.

The gun store i frequent (local mom and pop) gives a cash discount (on firearms only, not accessories or anmo) and it truly is the card swipe fee discount; every gun sale is background checked and paperwork filed with the ATF so you can’t fudge the numbers.  I think it’s 5-7% so truly is worth it to get the cash; almost any other time I don’t bother, but I almost never have more than about $50 on me/around the house so have to go out of my way to make large cash purchases.

Which brings up another point; I find those studies that say you spend more on plastic to be suspect; I find paper money tends to go through my hands quickly because it’s “already spent” out of the bank balance. Plastic money gets thought about more because I haven’t yet incurred the impact of spending it yet so I think about it more.

I have the same response to cash vs. credit. I regularly check the credit statements and can see exactly where the money goes and whether we need to rein in the spending. Once cash leaves the bank, I have no idea where it goes. The most cash I carry regularly is a quarter for an Aldi cart.

Around here, I only ever see the cash discount at gas stations. There are a few businesses that only accept cash, like a famous burger and beer joint and my husband's barber.

Morning Glory

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #98 on: May 14, 2021, 05:24:27 PM »
Clearly some businesses aren't equipped to take cash. And clearly there is a cost and risk both to the customer and the retailer to use cash.  Neither was my point.  I don't presume to know the mind of Ramsey. Not a close follower of his, but I don't read too much into the tweet that was quoted.  It is, however, objectively true.  MMM would say so.  You can't spend your way to wealth.

With respect to using cards (or phones or wristwatches) to buy stuff, the nature of our present system is somewhat that you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.  If you pay cash/use debit cards and pay full price, you are subsidizing the points schemes through inflated prices, assuming risks and reaping almost no benefit.  So you might as well use a form of reward banking.  But it's no ticket to wealth. Just like ordering extra Arbonne each month to reach a higher level of commissions or earn a 'free' trip, you've paid for it all, yourself, well in advance of reaping any benefit.

If I can pay cash and get a discount, that's the route I'm going.  A 5-10% cash discount from small businesses is my experience.  I pick up take-out for a homebound relative 2x per week.  Two of my local sandwich shops (not chains) offer 7% discount to pay cash.  I got a 10% discount on a vehicle tow just 2 days ago.  We had 8% discounts on work done on our home from three separate contractors for paying cash over the past few years.

That's the "I'm not going to report this income on my taxes" discount, not the "I'm going to avoid a 3% merchant fee" discount. We use an appliance repair guy that takes cash and offers a discount equivalent to sales tax (about 8%). I too am happy to go pull a few hundred bucks from the ATM to save some money - but it's only those small businesses that are going to offer that discount.

The gun store i frequent (local mom and pop) gives a cash discount (on firearms only, not accessories or anmo) and it truly is the card swipe fee discount; every gun sale is background checked and paperwork filed with the ATF so you can’t fudge the numbers.  I think it’s 5-7% so truly is worth it to get the cash; almost any other time I don’t bother, but I almost never have more than about $50 on me/around the house so have to go out of my way to make large cash purchases.

Which brings up another point; I find those studies that say you spend more on plastic to be suspect; I find paper money tends to go through my hands quickly because it’s “already spent” out of the bank balance. Plastic money gets thought about more because I haven’t yet incurred the impact of spending it yet so I think about it more.

I have the same response to cash vs. credit. I regularly check the credit statements and can see exactly where the money goes and whether we need to rein in the spending. Once cash leaves the bank, I have no idea where it goes. The most cash I carry regularly is a quarter for an Aldi cart.

Around here, I only ever see the cash discount at gas stations. There are a few businesses that only accept cash, like a famous burger and beer joint and my husband's barber.

Me too, but I think we are the oddballs. My dentist and my propane guy both give 5% discounts for using cash or check, and there's one store with a 3% surcharge for using cards

SmartyCat

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Re: Is Dave Ramsey a damned moron?
« Reply #99 on: May 14, 2021, 08:15:23 PM »
Clearly some businesses aren't equipped to take cash. And clearly there is a cost and risk both to the customer and the retailer to use cash.  Neither was my point.  I don't presume to know the mind of Ramsey. Not a close follower of his, but I don't read too much into the tweet that was quoted.  It is, however, objectively true.  MMM would say so.  You can't spend your way to wealth.

With respect to using cards (or phones or wristwatches) to buy stuff, the nature of our present system is somewhat that you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.  If you pay cash/use debit cards and pay full price, you are subsidizing the points schemes through inflated prices, assuming risks and reaping almost no benefit.  So you might as well use a form of reward banking.  But it's no ticket to wealth. Just like ordering extra Arbonne each month to reach a higher level of commissions or earn a 'free' trip, you've paid for it all, yourself, well in advance of reaping any benefit.

If I can pay cash and get a discount, that's the route I'm going.  A 5-10% cash discount from small businesses is my experience.  I pick up take-out for a homebound relative 2x per week.  Two of my local sandwich shops (not chains) offer 7% discount to pay cash.  I got a 10% discount on a vehicle tow just 2 days ago.  We had 8% discounts on work done on our home from three separate contractors for paying cash over the past few years.

That's the "I'm not going to report this income on my taxes" discount, not the "I'm going to avoid a 3% merchant fee" discount. We use an appliance repair guy that takes cash and offers a discount equivalent to sales tax (about 8%). I too am happy to go pull a few hundred bucks from the ATM to save some money - but it's only those small businesses that are going to offer that discount.

The gun store i frequent (local mom and pop) gives a cash discount (on firearms only, not accessories or anmo) and it truly is the card swipe fee discount; every gun sale is background checked and paperwork filed with the ATF so you can’t fudge the numbers.  I think it’s 5-7% so truly is worth it to get the cash; almost any other time I don’t bother, but I almost never have more than about $50 on me/around the house so have to go out of my way to make large cash purchases.

Which brings up another point; I find those studies that say you spend more on plastic to be suspect; I find paper money tends to go through my hands quickly because it’s “already spent” out of the bank balance. Plastic money gets thought about more because I haven’t yet incurred the impact of spending it yet so I think about it more.

I have the same response to cash vs. credit. I regularly check the credit statements and can see exactly where the money goes and whether we need to rein in the spending. Once cash leaves the bank, I have no idea where it goes. The most cash I carry regularly is a quarter for an Aldi cart.

Around here, I only ever see the cash discount at gas stations. There are a few businesses that only accept cash, like a famous burger and beer joint and my husband's barber.

Glad I have company here! I always have a good idea of our account balances, but once cash comes out of the ATM and into my wallet? Eh. Might have $120 in there, might have $5 - it's no longer part of my tracking mechanism and doesn't feel quite real. That stat about people spending more on plastic may be evidence-based, but always feels like opposite day to me.