Is anyone here still actually aiming for under MMM's original 25k a year figure?

[Sailor Sam]

I’m over here hoping someone else admits to spending more on pet care than on their mortgage…

(No face punches, I u defat and I am the Nair spokesperson here)

Pet insurance has served me well. $44 a month for a puppy where they paid out $3900 in the first year.. the cats are self insured, and we will pay for anything that is in the best interest of the animal. Enev though we could afford the bill I’m quite glad I took the advice to get insurance for the dog!

I knew mine were lemons when I took them in, unfortunately! Their illnesses are why they hadn’t been adopted.

Not quite! $23k on rent, to $16k for the ‘free’ dog. He’s adorable, and has what we call issues.

[MudPuppy]

Love a fixer-upper pupper

[vand]

I did meticulously record all my discretionary spending in 2019 and it came in embarassingly low (around 9k purely discretionary, or 13k with bills)

??  Embarrassing low?  That sounds like a lot to me.  I've averaged closer to $2K/yr discretionary spending for several years.  I certainly haven't been miserable.

I suspect our definitions of "discretionary" are quite different, but I'd challenge your assertion of it being "a lot" when in absolute terms it's below the official poverty line and far below any amount that all the studies come out with as a reasonable cost of living for retirees.

The race to the bottom is just as undesireable to me as the race to the top.

[Metalcat]

I did meticulously record all my discretionary spending in 2019 and it came in embarassingly low (around 9k purely discretionary, or 13k with bills)

??  Embarrassing low?  That sounds like a lot to me.  I've averaged closer to $2K/yr discretionary spending for several years.  I certainly haven't been miserable.

I suspect our definitions of "discretionary" are quite different, but I'd challenge your assertion of it being "a lot" when in absolute terms it's below the official poverty line and far below any amount that all the studies come out with as a reasonable cost of living for retirees.

The race to the bottom is just as undesireable to me as the race to the top.

In my many years here, I have never seen a "race to the bottom" mentality.

[2sk22]

I am beginning to see a little bit of "Four Yorkshiremen" here :-)

[AlanStache]

I did meticulously record all my discretionary spending in 2019 and it came in embarrassingly low (around 9k purely discretionary, or 13k with bills)

Yes lots hang on the definition of discretionary, if the 13k covers housing & utilities (power/water/internet/cell/etc) & food then 9k could be cushy.  That comes to 500$/mon with 3k$ left for some big one off things.  By those definitions I am a bit under that. 

[BookLoverL]

"Discretionary" is generally used to mean non-necessary spending, afaik. So while you can often reduce your bills by shopping around and trying to use less water and electric, bills for heating, electric, water, food, and housing are generally all under category of non-discretionary spending. Also council taxes and similar (I forgot what you call that in america. Property taxes maybe?) are in that category.

So if you say you have that much discretionary spending, it implies you spend that much *on top of* whatever you can't get out of paying for basics.

[mathlete]

The way you get to a $25K/year spend is by doing the following

-Buy a house with cash
-Start tracking expenses
*mark zero for housing costs since we already bought the house
**mark zero for car costs since we already owned a car
***mark zero for healthcare because we're rich and self-insure
-Stop tracking expenses
-Pay for large healthcare expense

This is Enron level accounting. I used to not have an issue with it, because who cares? But the fact that it clearly creates confusion amongst a financially savvy audience leads be to think that people just shouldn't do this shit anymore.

I would encourage everyone to use much more conservative estimates when doing their retirement planning.

[AlanStache]

"Discretionary" is generally used to mean non-necessary spending, afaik. So while you can often reduce your bills by shopping around and trying to use less water and electric, bills for heating, electric, water, food, and housing are generally all under category of non-discretionary spending. Also council taxes and similar (I forgot what you call that in america*. Property taxes maybe?) are in that category.

socialism, we call all taxes socialism.   \s

"Discretionary" - yes but there can be a good bit of grey area.  And ultimately if you are not directly living off the land, chopping fire wood and carrying water most all of your spending could be argued to be discretionary.  But that gets dumb and meaningless very quickly.

[mathlete]

In my many years here, I have never seen a "race to the bottom" mentality.

Clown cars. Face-punching. Spendy. Complainypants.

Low spending, or really even the appearance of low spending, confers high status in this community. This is more or less confirmed by the fact that we see blogs about hyperfrugality pop up all the time, chasing all those affiliate marketing dollars. Money is an unbiased indicator of what people value. In this group, there's a high premium on the appearance of frugality.

[vand]

I did meticulously record all my discretionary spending in 2019 and it came in embarassingly low (around 9k purely discretionary, or 13k with bills)

??  Embarrassing low?  That sounds like a lot to me.  I've averaged closer to $2K/yr discretionary spending for several years.  I certainly haven't been miserable.

I suspect our definitions of "discretionary" are quite different, but I'd challenge your assertion of it being "a lot" when in absolute terms it's below the official poverty line and far below any amount that all the studies come out with as a reasonable cost of living for retirees.

The race to the bottom is just as undesireable to me as the race to the top.

In my many years here, I have never seen a "race to the bottom" mentality.

Disagree, I see plenty of "I'm FI because I don't spend any money." mentality whick wholly defeats the point of FI.  Without wanting to be unkind to the OP, a budget of £20/week for food is NUTS, and the sort of silly spend-nothing approach to so-called independence I'm referring to.

[Metalcat]

I did meticulously record all my discretionary spending in 2019 and it came in embarassingly low (around 9k purely discretionary, or 13k with bills)

??  Embarrassing low?  That sounds like a lot to me.  I've averaged closer to $2K/yr discretionary spending for several years.  I certainly haven't been miserable.

I suspect our definitions of "discretionary" are quite different, but I'd challenge your assertion of it being "a lot" when in absolute terms it's below the official poverty line and far below any amount that all the studies come out with as a reasonable cost of living for retirees.

The race to the bottom is just as undesireable to me as the race to the top.

In my many years here, I have never seen a "race to the bottom" mentality.

Disagree, I see plenty of "I'm FI because I don't spend any money." mentality whick wholly defeats the point of FI.  Without wanting to be unkind to the OP, a budget of £20/week for food is NUTS, and the sort of silly spend-nothing approach to so-called independence I'm referring to.

Sure, I have seen individual members aim for too low spending, but I have never seen a "race to the bottom" culture here. Anyone who has expressed blatantly cheap values has been told as much pretty swiftly.

[Metalcat]

In my many years here, I have never seen a "race to the bottom" mentality.

Clown cars. Face-punching. Spendy. Complainypants.

Low spending, or really even the appearance of low spending, confers high status in this community. This is more or less confirmed by the fact that we see blogs about hyperfrugality pop up all the time, chasing all those affiliate marketing dollars. Money is an unbiased indicator of what people value. In this group, there's a high premium on the appearance of frugality.

Promoting frugality is NOT a race to the bottom. Asking people to question their consumerism is not promoting being cheap.

[BookLoverL]

I did meticulously record all my discretionary spending in 2019 and it came in embarassingly low (around 9k purely discretionary, or 13k with bills)

??  Embarrassing low?  That sounds like a lot to me.  I've averaged closer to $2K/yr discretionary spending for several years.  I certainly haven't been miserable.

I suspect our definitions of "discretionary" are quite different, but I'd challenge your assertion of it being "a lot" when in absolute terms it's below the official poverty line and far below any amount that all the studies come out with as a reasonable cost of living for retirees.

The race to the bottom is just as undesireable to me as the race to the top.

In my many years here, I have never seen a "race to the bottom" mentality.

Disagree, I see plenty of "I'm FI because I don't spend any money." mentality whick wholly defeats the point of FI.  Without wanting to be unkind to the OP, a budget of £20/week for food is NUTS, and the sort of silly spend-nothing approach to so-called independence I'm referring to.

Excuse me??? £20 a week for food is not nuts. I have personally lived on even less than this for food for a whole six months or so back when I was living completely by myself for a bit, by a combination of shopping at the UK budget supermarket ALDI and having a flexible meal plan based on what was cheapest to buy. This had all important food groups (protein, fat, carbs, vitamins and minerals) and enough calories to maintain the weight I've always had, which is in the healthy BMI range for a person of my gender and height. AND this was while buying convenient food like oven-reheatable pizzas a lot and sticking to frozen and canned veg instead of fresh and stuff like that, due to having issues with my disability at the time. I'm not vegetarian either, this included meat and fish based products too, even if usually the cheaper ones.

I had a bunch of issues at the time because I hated the job I had at that time and also the first pandemic lockdown took place for part of it, but I didn't feel deprived diet-wise at all.

[Morning Glory]

I did meticulously record all my discretionary spending in 2019 and it came in embarassingly low (around 9k purely discretionary, or 13k with bills)

??  Embarrassing low?  That sounds like a lot to me.  I've averaged closer to $2K/yr discretionary spending for several years.  I certainly haven't been miserable.

I suspect our definitions of "discretionary" are quite different, but I'd challenge your assertion of it being "a lot" when in absolute terms it's below the official poverty line and far below any amount that all the studies come out with as a reasonable cost of living for retirees.

The race to the bottom is just as undesireable to me as the race to the top.

In my many years here, I have never seen a "race to the bottom" mentality.

Disagree, I see plenty of "I'm FI because I don't spend any money." mentality whick wholly defeats the point of FI.  Without wanting to be unkind to the OP, a budget of £20/week for food is NUTS, and the sort of silly spend-nothing approach to so-called independence I'm referring to.

Excuse me??? £20 a week for food is not nuts. I have personally lived on even less than this for food for a whole six months or so back when I was living completely by myself for a bit, by a combination of shopping at the UK budget supermarket ALDI and having a flexible meal plan based on what was cheapest to buy. This had all important food groups (protein, fat, carbs, vitamins and minerals) and enough calories to maintain the weight I've always had, which is in the healthy BMI range for a person of my gender and height. AND this was while buying convenient food like oven-reheatable pizzas a lot and sticking to frozen and canned veg instead of fresh and stuff like that, due to having issues with my disability at the time. I'm not vegetarian either, this included meat and fish based products too, even if usually the cheaper ones.

I had a bunch of issues at the time because I hated the job I had at that time and also the first pandemic lockdown took place for part of it, but I didn't feel deprived diet-wise at all.

There are also many of us who hunt, fish, garden, etc. and may not need a large budget to get the few remaining items needed.

[ChpBstrd]

Lots of people in the US actually live on $25k or less per year. 27% of American workers earn $25k per year or less, and some small percentage of those must have a positive savings rate so they're living on less!

Source: https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-calculator/

We're all utterly surrounded by people doing what is claimed to be impossible on this thread.

I think the disagreements in this thread are based on people's baseline assumptions about the definition of what's possible, or what should be acceptable as a FIRE lifestyle. At the extremes of course, one could live under a bridge, eat a $1 can of food for each of 3 meals a day, dive the dumpsters for all clothing and household items, go without healthcare, etc. and live on about $1,100 per year (25x FIRE number = $27,500!!!). Native Americans lived better than that on $0. These lifestyles are technically available to all, but no one is choosing them. Those of us with the internet connections to reach this forum have expectations for the quality of our housing, cleanliness / hygiene, the quality of our food, social status, and the places we're willing to live.

For example, it's probably safe to say most of us expect:
1) A private bedroom in a house/apartment AND private bedrooms for any kids/family members who live with us.
2) To be able to live in a state/city with artificially inflated housing costs, like California, Massachusetts, Washington, or New York.
3) An HVAC system.
4) At least one American-size car with a cost of ownership of at least $5k per year.
5) A refrigerator taller than we are.
6) A neighborhood where we feel safe walking at night.
7) Hot showers, daily, privately, and whenever we like.
8) At least 15-20 sets of clothes, and 5-6 sets of shoes.
9) A dishwasher, washing machine, and clothes dryer.
10) High speed home internet, e.g. >3Mbps, AND a smartphone

This list could go on... but the point is our expectations set our costs. One could jettison #2 and have ALL the rest in their pick of thousands of small towns and cities in the U.S. One could jettison #4, get a bike, and knock off, what?, 15% of their baseline spending? And look at all the assumptions that did not exist until the mid 20th century: #1, #3, #4, #5, #7, #8, #9, and #10 are all things most of our great grandparents lived complete and fulfilling lives without. These are all things that either were only available to the rich or had not been invented yet. When we say we want all the things and all the new things as they come along... well yes, the costs go up. It probably is impossible to live alone in a suburban SFH in California for <$25k, no argument there.

Some of us go so far as to expect the average level of luxuries and spending of the people around us - i.e. other suburban homeowners in a high-status neighborhood in a HCOL area. This is "par" and there is a stout refusal to consider other possible lifestyles. Others of us require vacations at distant resorts, expensive hobbies like boating, or 3,000sf houses mansions. Claims of frugality become a joke at some point, no matter how many Starbucks lattes one can point to that they didn't buy.

[BookLoverL]

Lots of people in the US actually live on $25k or less per year. 27% of American workers earn $25k per year or less, and some small percentage of those must have a positive savings rate so they're living on less!

Source: https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-calculator/

We're all utterly surrounded by people doing what is claimed to be impossible on this thread.

I think the disagreements in this thread are based on people's baseline assumptions about the definition of what's possible, or what should be acceptable as a FIRE lifestyle. At the extremes of course, one could live under a bridge, eat a $1 can of food for each of 3 meals a day, dive the dumpsters for all clothing and household items, go without healthcare, etc. and live on about $1,100 per year (25x FIRE number = $27,500!!!). Native Americans lived better than that on $0. These lifestyles are technically available to all, but no one is choosing them. Those of us with the internet connections to reach this forum have expectations for the quality of our housing, cleanliness / hygiene, the quality of our food, social status, and the places we're willing to live.

For example, it's probably safe to say most of us expect:
1) A private bedroom in a house/apartment AND private bedrooms for any kids/family members who live with us.
2) To be able to live in a state/city with artificially inflated housing costs, like California, Massachusetts, Washington, or New York.
3) An HVAC system.
4) At least one American-size car with a cost of ownership of at least $5k per year.
5) A refrigerator taller than we are.
6) A neighborhood where we feel safe walking at night.
7) Hot showers, daily, privately, and whenever we like.
8) At least 15-20 sets of clothes, and 5-6 sets of shoes.
9) A dishwasher, washing machine, and clothes dryer.
10) High speed home internet, e.g. >3Mbps, AND a smartphone

This list could go on... but the point is our expectations set our costs. One could jettison #2 and have ALL the rest in their pick of thousands of small towns and cities in the U.S. One could jettison #4, get a bike, and knock off, what?, 15% of their baseline spending? And look at all the assumptions that did not exist until the mid 20th century: #1, #3, #4, #5, #7, #8, #9, and #10 are all things most of our great grandparents lived complete and fulfilling lives without. These are all things that either were only available to the rich or had not been invented yet. When we say we want all the things and all the new things as they come along... well yes, the costs go up. It probably is impossible to live alone in a suburban SFH in California for <$25k, no argument there.

Some of us go so far as to expect the average level of luxuries and spending of the people around us - i.e. other suburban homeowners in a high-status neighborhood in a HCOL area. This is "par" and there is a stout refusal to consider other possible lifestyles. Others of us require vacations at distant resorts, expensive hobbies like boating, or 3,000sf houses mansions. Claims of frugality become a joke at some point, no matter how many Starbucks lattes one can point to that they didn't buy.

I have all of those things except for 2), 3) but HVAC is not common in the UK, we did buy a fan in the summer though since heatwaves are getting more common, 4) I have a small UK-sized car, bought second-hand, that is imminently going to be sold now I no longer need it to commute, 9) we have the washer and dryer but no dishwasher by choice but we could afford one if we wanted, 10) no smartphone right now but I'm planning to get one and that was due to lifestyle choice and not cost too.

[nereo]

While I agree with most of the message, I couldn't help but evaluate myself against your list.  All in good fun ;-P

For example, it's probably safe to say most of us expect:
1) A private bedroom in a house/apartment AND private bedrooms for any kids/family members who live with us.
for each kid? nope.  But we do have and expect our separate bedroom
2) To be able to live in a state/city with artificially inflated housing costs, like California, Massachusetts, Washington, or New York.
personally i never want to move back to those states (lived in all four!) but I suppose I could...
3) An HVAC system.
Never had one when I lived in California.  Here in New England I treasure mine (and am designing a new/better one)
4) At least one American-size car with a cost of ownership of at least $5k per year.
yup
5) A refrigerator taller than we are.
nope.  never had one taller than me in my adult life.  Course, I'm 6'5" so only exceptionally tall fridges fit this.
6) A neighborhood where we feel safe walking at night.
yup
7) Hot showers, daily, privately, and whenever we like.
Daily is a stretch.  I do want a private hot shower whenever I feel the need
8) At least 15-20 sets of clothes, and 5-6 sets of shoes.
I have too many clothes, but not that many shoes.  I think I've got 4 pairs right now including my boots
9) A dishwasher, washing machine, and clothes dryer.
No on the dishwasher.  We have a dryer but use it pretty sparingly.
10) High speed home internet, e.g. >3Mbps, AND a smartphone
I hate my smartphone, but begrudgingly have it.  Yes on the home internet.

[CrabbitDutchie]

Disagree, I see plenty of "I'm FI because I don't spend any money." mentality whick wholly defeats the point of FI.  Without wanting to be unkind to the OP, a budget of £20/week for food is NUTS, and the sort of silly spend-nothing approach to so-called independence I'm referring to.

Excuse me??? £20 a week for food is not nuts.

Agree that £20 a week is perfectly fine for a decent varied diet without any feelings of deprivation. I don't consciously budget for food and spend around this level.@vand, If you think it's nuts perhaps reconsider your assumptions. Might be better than calling the OP silly and their total spend 'embarrasing'.

[jim555]

I live on $15K in high cost Long Island, NY and have done so for the last 7 years.

For example, it's probably safe to say most of us expect:
1) A private bedroom in a house/apartment AND private bedrooms for any kids/family members who live with us.

Check.


2) To be able to live in a state/city with artificially inflated housing costs, like California, Massachusetts, Washington, or New York.

Bought my condo for cash after the 2009 recession so inflated is relative in the high cost area.


3) An HVAC system.

Heat included in association fees, two wall air cons.


4) At least one American-size car with a cost of ownership of at least $5k per year.

Yes.  I don't know how you get the $5K a year number.  My 2006 econobox has minimal expenses and I hardly drive it.  Plan to drive it until the wheels fall off.


5) A refrigerator taller than we are.

Normal size.


6) A neighborhood where we feel safe walking at night.

My county is one of the safest in the country.


7) Hot showers, daily, privately, and whenever we like.

Check.


8) At least 15-20 sets of clothes, and 5-6 sets of shoes.

Clothes yes, 15-20 sets???


9) A dishwasher, washing machine, and clothes dryer.

Dishwasher no, by hand is fine.  Washing machine and dryer is in the condo complex, not in the unit.


10) High speed home internet, e.g. >3Mbps, AND a smartphone

Low income gets me free medical, cell phone and Internet.

[StarBright]

@ChpBstrd I like your list and think it is fairly spot on for living under 25k in the US. (If you have to pay rent/mortgage)

My first job out of grad school I made 22k (would be about 29k now) and I only had numbers 1, 4 and 10.

[Zikoris]

For example, it's probably safe to say most of us expect:
1) A private bedroom in a house/apartment AND private bedrooms for any kids/family members who live with us.
2) To be able to live in a state/city with artificially inflated housing costs, like California, Massachusetts, Washington, or New York.
3) An HVAC system.
4) At least one American-size car with a cost of ownership of at least $5k per year.
5) A refrigerator taller than we are.
6) A neighborhood where we feel safe walking at night.
7) Hot showers, daily, privately, and whenever we like.
8) At least 15-20 sets of clothes, and 5-6 sets of shoes.
9) A dishwasher, washing machine, and clothes dryer.
10) High speed home internet, e.g. >3Mbps, AND a smartphone

Interesting, almost none of those apply to me.

1. No bedrooms here! Studio apartment with one big room.
2. I live in what's considered an expensive city (but not expensive for me), but I don't want to and don't intend to stay long term. I'd happily swear off ever living in an expensive city again.
3. No HVAC.
4. No car of any kind.
5. I think my fridge is about my height, but I could definitely go smaller - lots of empty space, especially in the freezer. Also, it came with the apartment, so it's not like I picked it.
6. My neighbourhood is sketchy as hell at night these days. Doesn't matter to me since I like to read books at night rather than go for walks.
7. Yes to hot showers on demand.
8. I definitely do not have anywhere near that amount of clothing/shoes.
9. I use a communal washing machine, hang my stuff to dry, and don't have a dishwasher.
10. My internet is the slower and cheaper package, and I don't have a smartphone.

[Morning Glory]

For example, it's probably safe to say most of us expect:
1) A private bedroom in a house/apartment AND private bedrooms for any kids/family members who live with us.
2) To be able to live in a state/city with artificially inflated housing costs, like California, Massachusetts, Washington, or New York.
3) An HVAC system.
4) At least one American-size car with a cost of ownership of at least $5k per year.
5) A refrigerator taller than we are.
6) A neighborhood where we feel safe walking at night.
7) Hot showers, daily, privately, and whenever we like.
8) At least 15-20 sets of clothes, and 5-6 sets of shoes.
9) A dishwasher, washing machine, and clothes dryer.
10) High speed home internet, e.g. >3Mbps, AND a smartphone

I had to check. I am taller than my fridge! I don't mind but my husband hates it because he has to crouch down to see in there. I'm 5'4" and he's 6'6". He's also the only reason I need an American sized car.

I have most of the things on the list except my kids share a bedroom and I'm in a lower-cost city. I'm sure some of the things on the list have more to do with climate than frugality preference. I could get by with much fewer clothes and shoes, for example, if I lived someplace that was a consistent temperature year round.

[Ron Scott]

In my many years here, I have never seen a "race to the bottom" mentality.

Clown cars. Face-punching. Spendy. Complainypants.

Low spending, or really even the appearance of low spending, confers high status in this community. This is more or less confirmed by the fact that we see blogs about hyperfrugality pop up all the time, chasing all those affiliate marketing dollars. Money is an unbiased indicator of what people value. In this group, there's a high premium on the appearance of frugality.

The net worth required for Financial Independence is a personal issue. If one chooses to live a frugal life or a luxurious one—all is good.

The lower earning person who chooses to retire at 35 with an annual spend of $30k is fine. The one who chooses to retire at 50 with a $10m net worth is just as fine. And the one who can retire at 60 with $30m—god bless.

At some point we’re all going to be dirt in the ground. So whether you want to work half your years here or a lot less, someone else’s value judgement about it isn’t worth squat…

[vand]

I did meticulously record all my discretionary spending in 2019 and it came in embarassingly low (around 9k purely discretionary, or 13k with bills)

??  Embarrassing low?  That sounds like a lot to me.  I've averaged closer to $2K/yr discretionary spending for several years.  I certainly haven't been miserable.

I suspect our definitions of "discretionary" are quite different, but I'd challenge your assertion of it being "a lot" when in absolute terms it's below the official poverty line and far below any amount that all the studies come out with as a reasonable cost of living for retirees.

The race to the bottom is just as undesireable to me as the race to the top.

In my many years here, I have never seen a "race to the bottom" mentality.

Disagree, I see plenty of "I'm FI because I don't spend any money." mentality whick wholly defeats the point of FI.  Without wanting to be unkind to the OP, a budget of £20/week for food is NUTS, and the sort of silly spend-nothing approach to so-called independence I'm referring to.

Excuse me??? £20 a week for food is not nuts. I have personally lived on even less than this for food for a whole six months or so back when I was living completely by myself for a bit, by a combination of shopping at the UK budget supermarket ALDI and having a flexible meal plan based on what was cheapest to buy. This had all important food groups (protein, fat, carbs, vitamins and minerals) and enough calories to maintain the weight I've always had, which is in the healthy BMI range for a person of my gender and height. AND this was while buying convenient food like oven-reheatable pizzas a lot and sticking to frozen and canned veg instead of fresh and stuff like that, due to having issues with my disability at the time. I'm not vegetarian either, this included meat and fish based products too, even if usually the cheaper ones.

I had a bunch of issues at the time because I hated the job I had at that time and also the first pandemic lockdown took place for part of it, but I didn't feel deprived diet-wise at all.

Well I don't know what you're buying and eating so I can't comment of nutrition, but its nuts simply in the context that you could easily spend £20 on a single meal in a cheap restaurant... so if FI means budgeting £20/week to you then it's also a life where you never go to any restaurants. That's not the sort of retirement that most of us are looking for.

I appreciate that everyone's gotta cut their cloth according to their own situation, and I do salute the sort of frugal endevours that are based around maximizing the value and appreciation of what you have, but I would personally be miserable if Tesco and M&S were no-go areas (Whole Foods we can sort of agree on), and that every meal had to be strictly budgeted and prepared according to what was the best value in any given week. Those sort of things are not unreasonable or even luxurious, but a standard of living that frankly I think everyone should aspire to.

[BookLoverL]

I go to a restaurant about 2 to 4 times a year as a separate budget category, usually on special occasions. But most restaurants don't taste any better than skillfully cooked food at home anyway, in fact most taste worse, and the background noise in restaurants tends to fry my brain. When I do go it's usually for a type of food that's harder to cook at home.

[Kwill]

I did meticulously record all my discretionary spending in 2019 and it came in embarassingly low (around 9k purely discretionary, or 13k with bills)

??  Embarrassing low?  That sounds like a lot to me.  I've averaged closer to $2K/yr discretionary spending for several years.  I certainly haven't been miserable.

I suspect our definitions of "discretionary" are quite different, but I'd challenge your assertion of it being "a lot" when in absolute terms it's below the official poverty line and far below any amount that all the studies come out with as a reasonable cost of living for retirees.

The race to the bottom is just as undesireable to me as the race to the top.

In my many years here, I have never seen a "race to the bottom" mentality.

Disagree, I see plenty of "I'm FI because I don't spend any money." mentality whick wholly defeats the point of FI.  Without wanting to be unkind to the OP, a budget of £20/week for food is NUTS, and the sort of silly spend-nothing approach to so-called independence I'm referring to.

Excuse me??? £20 a week for food is not nuts. I have personally lived on even less than this for food for a whole six months or so back when I was living completely by myself for a bit, by a combination of shopping at the UK budget supermarket ALDI and having a flexible meal plan based on what was cheapest to buy. This had all important food groups (protein, fat, carbs, vitamins and minerals) and enough calories to maintain the weight I've always had, which is in the healthy BMI range for a person of my gender and height. AND this was while buying convenient food like oven-reheatable pizzas a lot and sticking to frozen and canned veg instead of fresh and stuff like that, due to having issues with my disability at the time. I'm not vegetarian either, this included meat and fish based products too, even if usually the cheaper ones.

I had a bunch of issues at the time because I hated the job I had at that time and also the first pandemic lockdown took place for part of it, but I didn't feel deprived diet-wise at all.

Well I don't know what you're buying and eating so I can't comment of nutrition, but its nuts simply in the context that you could easily spend £20 on a single meal in a cheap restaurant... so if FI means budgeting £20/week to you then it's also a life where you never go to any restaurants. That's not the sort of retirement that most of us are looking for.

I appreciate that everyone's gotta cut their cloth according to their own situation, and I do salute the sort of frugal endevours that are based around maximizing the value and appreciation of what you have, but I would personally be miserable if Tesco and M&S were no-go areas (Whole Foods we can sort of agree on), and that every meal had to be strictly budgeted and prepared according to what was the best value in any given week. Those sort of things are not unreasonable or even luxurious, but a standard of living that frankly I think everyone should aspire to.

Ah, I didn't realise you were including restaurants in the £20 a week for food. I think of restaurants and groceries separately and waste some money on things like sandwiches at work and pub lunches with friends on Sundays. For actual groceries, £20 seems reasonable for the UK, assuming one person. I tend to order a big grocery delivery about once every 6 to 8 weeks for things like dry pasta, rice, frozen food, and tinned food, as well as the food for that week. Then I buy eggs and milk and other fresh food more regularly. Relying on pantry staples probably lowers the cost a bit, but I also find it less stressful since I know there's always something to make at home, even if I don't have time to shop after work, etc. I probably average a little more than £20 a week, but food costs have also gone up since the pandemic.

[keepingfocus]

OP,
$25k seems to be around £18.7k at the moment.
As a two person household in Greater London with a mortgage, very silly (£267/mo) council tax and around £160-£200/mo food spend, we’ve been living on less than this for the last few years, as a massive chunk of income was diverted to pay off consumer debt. £18.7k once the mortgage is done with in a few years would feel very comfortable indeed.

[Zikoris]

The net worth required for Financial Independence is a personal issue. If one chooses to live a frugal life or a luxurious one—all is good.

The lower earning person who chooses to retire at 35 with an annual spend of $30k is fine. The one who chooses to retire at 50 with a $10m net worth is just as fine. And the one who can retire at 60 with $30m—god bless.

At some point we’re all going to be dirt in the ground. So whether you want to work half your years here or a lot less, someone else’s value judgement about it isn’t worth squat…

Except that it's NOT okay to just consume however you like, because it affects more people than just you. If you choose to live in a way that leads to everyone dying from climate catastrophe, that's not okay. If you choose to live in a way that involves consuming tons of stuff produced by child and slave labor, that's not okay. If you choose to live in a way that produces mountains of plastic trash that gets shipped overseas to pollute poor countries, that's not okay. Doing those things makes you an objectively BAD PERSON, and it's total bullshit to say that type of destructive behaviour should be considered no different than the opposite choices.

Basically, if you choose to act like a shithead, you lose the right to complain when people point out that fact.

[mathlete]

In my many years here, I have never seen a "race to the bottom" mentality.

Clown cars. Face-punching. Spendy. Complainypants.

Low spending, or really even the appearance of low spending, confers high status in this community. This is more or less confirmed by the fact that we see blogs about hyperfrugality pop up all the time, chasing all those affiliate marketing dollars. Money is an unbiased indicator of what people value. In this group, there's a high premium on the appearance of frugality.

Promoting frugality is NOT a race to the bottom. Asking people to question their consumerism is not promoting being cheap.

I'm not making a value judgement on what is cheap or not. I'm saying that this community confers a lot of status on people for spending a little as possible. That much is clear by spending any amount of time on this forums and observing the vernacular. But it's also visible in the FIRE blogosphere.

MMM's personal spending numbers are pretty much useless. He doesn't accrue or defer big expenses like housing or healthcare. Fun things he does get classified as business expenses and as such, are marked as zero. There are big, important, expensive items that he marks as zero because the headline of, "Our family spending is $25K!" is higher value in this community that a less eye-popping, but more useful analysis. I'm not picking on MMM here. Everyone does this. The Frugalwoods Memoire is "Financial Independence through Simple Living" and not, "I'm a SAHM and my husband makes a quarter million a year."

A car you spent a lot of money on is a "clown car". This is a signifier of low value. Spending too much on something in general is worthy of a "face punch" because it's a low value decision.

I could belabor the point further, but yes, the FIRE community absolutely encourages race to the bottom spending.

[mathlete]

Except that it's NOT okay to just consume however you like, because it affects more people than just you. If you choose to live in a way that leads to everyone dying from climate catastrophe, that's not okay. If you choose to live in a way that involves consuming tons of stuff produced by child and slave labor, that's not okay. If you choose to live in a way that produces mountains of plastic trash that gets shipped overseas to pollute poor countries, that's not okay. Doing those things makes you an objectively BAD PERSON, and it's total bullshit to say that type of destructive behaviour should be considered no different than the opposite choices.

Basically, if you choose to act like a shithead, you lose the right to complain when people point out that fact.

And I'm sure the level of conspicuous consumption that classifies you as "objectively BAD" is one notch above your personal level of consumption. =)

[cannotWAIT]

This thread is a trip! I have everything on the list except #2, but on the other hand #1 is a whole house. This is on $18K. Even so, when I read about other people living on my same amount, I can't help but wonder if I have some freak set of circumstances that allows me to have a normal life with lower spending and everyone else must be living on the edge. Like, are the rest of you so frugal that I would be able to identify you in the wild? Perhaps by the duct tape holding your shoes together?

If you're wondering the same thing, I'm pretty sure I come across as a typical middle-aged professional, just more on the "Subie parked in the detached garage of a cute cottage in a historic district" end of the spectrum as opposed to the "giant SUV parked in the three-car garage of a mini-mansion in a gated community" end. I have other middle-aged professionals over for dinner without shame. There are many, many places I could cut back before approaching any form of deprivation.

As an additional data point, my partner lives on about $30K, and his life looks pretty much like mine. Adorable little Tudor house, plenty of fancy groceries, money enough to eat out a few times a month and indulge his interests. He gives quality gifts for birthdays and Christmas, etc.

I think that's actually what we all care about--not so much the dollars and cents of how much nutrition you can buy at a given level of spending, but what does a $25K (or pick your number and factor in housing however) life look like?

[vand]

I go to a restaurant about 2 to 4 times a year as a separate budget category, usually on special occasions. But most restaurants don't taste any better than skillfully cooked food at home anyway, in fact most taste worse, and the background noise in restaurants tends to fry my brain. When I do go it's usually for a type of food that's harder to cook at home.

Sorry, now I know just trying to wind me up. Maybe you are an outstanding cook with who can make restaurant quality food from ultra cheap ingredients, but ask 1000 people if their local curry or chinese or pub food is better than what they can do themselves and 999 of them will say yes it is.

Where I would say the gap is almost non-existent is in high-end supermarket range, eg the M&S "Best Ever" range - I would say is "restaurant quality", however it does costs more - you are talking £6-£8 for a pie or lasagne, not a £1 frozen job.

[mathlete]

This thread is a trip! I have everything on the list except #2, but on the other hand #1 is a whole house. This is on $18K. Even so, when I read about other people living on my same amount, I can't help but wonder if I have some freak set of circumstances that allows me to have a normal life with lower spending and everyone else must be living on the edge. Like, are the rest of you so frugal that I would be able to identify you in the wild? Perhaps by the duct tape holding your shoes together?

I would guess this is usually the case with low spending. That there is either something not being accounted for properly, or there is some unique circumstance that's pretty far from being universally applicable.

[Zikoris]

Except that it's NOT okay to just consume however you like, because it affects more people than just you. If you choose to live in a way that leads to everyone dying from climate catastrophe, that's not okay. If you choose to live in a way that involves consuming tons of stuff produced by child and slave labor, that's not okay. If you choose to live in a way that produces mountains of plastic trash that gets shipped overseas to pollute poor countries, that's not okay. Doing those things makes you an objectively BAD PERSON, and it's total bullshit to say that type of destructive behaviour should be considered no different than the opposite choices.

Basically, if you choose to act like a shithead, you lose the right to complain when people point out that fact.

And I'm sure the level of conspicuous consumption that classifies you as "objectively BAD" is one notch above your personal level of consumption. =)

The person I was replying to was comparing people retiring with 30K annual spend to people retiring with 10-30 million. Wherever you draw the line with overconsumption, I'm pretty sure most of us would agree where on the scale people whose spending requires a 30 million dollar stash fall.

[vand]

In my many years here, I have never seen a "race to the bottom" mentality.

Clown cars. Face-punching. Spendy. Complainypants.

Low spending, or really even the appearance of low spending, confers high status in this community. This is more or less confirmed by the fact that we see blogs about hyperfrugality pop up all the time, chasing all those affiliate marketing dollars. Money is an unbiased indicator of what people value. In this group, there's a high premium on the appearance of frugality.

The net worth required for Financial Independence is a personal issue. If one chooses to live a frugal life or a luxurious one—all is good.

The lower earning person who chooses to retire at 35 with an annual spend of $30k is fine. The one who chooses to retire at 50 with a $10m net worth is just as fine. And the one who can retire at 60 with $30m—god bless.

At some point we’re all going to be dirt in the ground. So whether you want to work half your years here or a lot less, someone else’s value judgement about it isn’t worth squat…

Wow, 3 straw men in the same post.. that'll take some beating.

If you can retire at 35 on $30k/yr then you are NOT a low earner

[Kwill]

I go to a restaurant about 2 to 4 times a year as a separate budget category, usually on special occasions. But most restaurants don't taste any better than skillfully cooked food at home anyway, in fact most taste worse, and the background noise in restaurants tends to fry my brain. When I do go it's usually for a type of food that's harder to cook at home.

Sorry, now I know just trying to wind me up. Maybe you are an outstanding cook with who can make restaurant quality food from ultra cheap ingredients, but ask 1000 people if their local curry or chinese or pub food is better than what they can do themselves and 999 of them will say yes it is.

Where I would say the gap is almost non-existent is in high-end supermarket range, eg the M&S "Best Ever" range - I would say is "restaurant quality", however it does costs more - you are talking £6-£8 for a pie or lasagne, not a £1 frozen job.

Ready-made pie or lasagne from the supermarket doesn't count as homemade, does it? Supermarket spending is going to vary a lot depending on whether you are buying ingredients to cook with or meals to heat up.

[BookLoverL]

I mean, maybe that's just my personal taste buds, but for a lot of places that's my opinion of restaurants. Not for curry or chinese, those are better at restaurants generally. Both my parents can cook decently and they taught me to as well. For meat-and-3-veg dishes like lamb chops etc., I often find restaurants worse. Lasagna is trickier to do at home but from Italian cuisine spaghetti bolognese, carbonara, meatball dishes are all totally reasonable to do at home.

My mum also bakes and I would rather have her homemade victoria sponge on my birthday than any pre-made supermarket cake, and than about 70% of restaurant cakes.

Learning to cook can make a real difference. I don't abide with ready meals, aside from pizza those always taste of disappointment. Some frozen and canned veg admittedly tastes less good than fresh, but you can buy cheap fresh veg, I just didn't because my disability makes it easy for me to forget about it and then it goes off.

I do like to go to a *good* restaurant on special occasions, but homecooked food tastes plenty fine, so I don't see why I'd need to go to restaurants every week. Restaurants are essentially a "socialising" category expense for me.

For seasoning I'm usually personally happy with just salt and sometimes ketchup - both cheap - but if you prefer it's easy to buy loads of types of herbs and spices in any supermarket. And there are plenty of recipe books and youtube channels that can teach how to cook a particular thing.

Also, for me, the £1.60ish Morrison's spinach and ricotta pizza I'm eating right now that I just heated from frozen in my own oven, genuinely is giving me about the same amount of enjoyment as the significantly more expensive Pizza Express pizza I had when I was out in Manchester with my mum last month shopping for clothes for my brother's wedding. YMMV but that's the truth for me.

[mathlete]

Except that it's NOT okay to just consume however you like, because it affects more people than just you. If you choose to live in a way that leads to everyone dying from climate catastrophe, that's not okay. If you choose to live in a way that involves consuming tons of stuff produced by child and slave labor, that's not okay. If you choose to live in a way that produces mountains of plastic trash that gets shipped overseas to pollute poor countries, that's not okay. Doing those things makes you an objectively BAD PERSON, and it's total bullshit to say that type of destructive behaviour should be considered no different than the opposite choices.

Basically, if you choose to act like a shithead, you lose the right to complain when people point out that fact.

And I'm sure the level of conspicuous consumption that classifies you as "objectively BAD" is one notch above your personal level of consumption. =)

The person I was replying to was comparing people retiring with 30K annual spend to people retiring with 10-30 million. Wherever you draw the line with overconsumption, I'm pretty sure most of us would agree where on the scale people whose spending requires a 30 million dollar stash fall.

Maybe. But for most people who work til 65 and amass $30M... I don't think they do that because they have $1.2M in carbon producing consumption that they want to fuel in perpetuity with the 4% rule.

[vand]

I go to a restaurant about 2 to 4 times a year as a separate budget category, usually on special occasions. But most restaurants don't taste any better than skillfully cooked food at home anyway, in fact most taste worse, and the background noise in restaurants tends to fry my brain. When I do go it's usually for a type of food that's harder to cook at home.

Sorry, now I know just trying to wind me up. Maybe you are an outstanding cook with who can make restaurant quality food from ultra cheap ingredients, but ask 1000 people if their local curry or chinese or pub food is better than what they can do themselves and 999 of them will say yes it is.

Where I would say the gap is almost non-existent is in high-end supermarket range, eg the M&S "Best Ever" range - I would say is "restaurant quality", however it does costs more - you are talking £6-£8 for a pie or lasagne, not a £1 frozen job.

Ready-made pie or lasagne from the supermarket doesn't count as homemade, does it? Supermarket spending is going to vary a lot depending on whether you are buying ingredients to cook with or meals to heat up.

Well when I cook a homemade one it usually doesn't cost a whole lost less. £3 for a lb of beef, £2 cheese, £1 lasange sauce, £1 cheese sause, a few pence for onion, seasoning, gets you to the same place as the ready-made meal. Admittedly I'd probably get 3 meals out of it rather than the 2 I'd normally get from a the ready meal. Oh, and the secret to a good homemade lasagne is lots of cheese.

[jim555]

Some people just don't care about being frugal and it shows in their spending.  With even a little effort most spending can be paired way back with minor inconvenience. 

[mathlete]

Its not race to the bottom spending. It's I want FI asap and possibly RE too so I can do whatever I want in life. So I'm not going to buy that clown car or house or blow my hard earned money on consumer crap everyone else says I need to be happy. Especially if those things  don't make my life any better. So maybe a race towards a better more fulfilling life of freedom (even just FU freedom) rather then to some bottom.

In it's most idealized form, sure. But wanting to retire ASAP doesn't explain the weird games people play with their numbers to make them smaller. (unless someone is trying to market themselves as a PF guru and monetize their writing, but I'll take at face value that most of the prominent FIRE voices were financially independent before they started making blog income, so I think we can safely disregard that possibility in most cases)

Passing judgement against people in our lives for their consumption doesn't help us retire faster, but we have a whole sub-forum dedicated to doing just that.

[former player]

I go to a restaurant about 2 to 4 times a year as a separate budget category, usually on special occasions. But most restaurants don't taste any better than skillfully cooked food at home anyway, in fact most taste worse, and the background noise in restaurants tends to fry my brain. When I do go it's usually for a type of food that's harder to cook at home.

Sorry, now I know just trying to wind me up. Maybe you are an outstanding cook with who can make restaurant quality food from ultra cheap ingredients, but ask 1000 people if their local curry or chinese or pub food is better than what they can do themselves and 999 of them will say yes it is.

Where I would say the gap is almost non-existent is in high-end supermarket range, eg the M&S "Best Ever" range - I would say is "restaurant quality", however it does costs more - you are talking £6-£8 for a pie or lasagne, not a £1 frozen job.

Ready-made pie or lasagne from the supermarket doesn't count as homemade, does it? Supermarket spending is going to vary a lot depending on whether you are buying ingredients to cook with or meals to heat up.

Well when I cook a homemade one it usually doesn't cost a whole lost less. £3 for a lb of beef, £2 cheese, £1 lasange sauce, £1 cheese sause, a few pence for onion, seasoning, gets you to the same place as the ready-made meal. Admittedly I'd probably get 3 meals out of it rather than the 2 I'd normally get from a the ready meal. Oh, and the secret to a good homemade lasagne is lots of cheese.

I'd make mine a vegetarian one, which is cheaper.  Not everyone has to eat meat all the time.   Are you buying the sauces? As I grow my own onions and tomatoes a red sauce is pennies and the flour, butter and milk for the cheese sauce not much more.

One of the tricks to living cheaply is to stop buying stuff.   I shop once a week for fresh food, once every two months for a store cupboard stock up, and mostly don't buy much else at all, I can easily go a month without spending on anything except food and household bills (tax, electricity, phone/internet etc.).  If you stop buying stuff life is pretty cheap.

[keepingfocus]

I don’t see this as a wind-up, I’m actually not that far removed from the OP on this. We get takeaways or go to restaurants a handful of times per year (usually birthdays/anniversaries), and it’s usually a good Indian meal or fancy seafood, because that’s absolutely not where our strengths lie and I know for sure we can’t get close to recreating it at home. I also totally agree about music in restaurants frying my brain; it often spoils an otherwise nice experience!

We used to go to Italian restaurants regularly, but don’t do that any more because the pizza and pasta we make at home is pretty close to restaurant quality, and a lot of time has been spent on nailing a few favourite dishes (same with good Mexican food that costs an arm and a leg in the better Mexican restaurants in London).

We’ve also been to a lot of quite mediocre places where I’ve felt hugely disappointed by the quality of food; maybe OP’s restaurant experiences have been similar.

A lot of our home cooking started as a necessarily frugality measure (you do not even want to know how much I used to spend on restaurants and M&S food), but it’s evolved over the last few years into not seeing a real benefit to going out if we can get close to the experience at home for a fraction of the cost.

[jim555]

One perk of retirement is a lot of free time to cook and shop for deals.  A bunch of other expenses go down as well.

[BookLoverL]

It's not a race to the bottom - as in, it's not about depriving yourself and cutting out every single thing in order to have the minimum possible expenses.

It's about figuring out what actually makes you happy in life and what doesn't, cutting the things that don't, and learning how to use less money to get the same or similar outcome for the things that do make you happy. And once you figure out those things you find that actually your spending is a lot lower.

Example: I moved to the city earlier this year because I was getting lonely in the countryside and everything was too far away. This also made my housing costs cheaper in the long run because my mum also moved with me, and we ended up buying after a bit so we're not bleeding money to rent. (My parents are separating, so my mum had the money from her half of the old house that my parents used to own.)

Now that I'm living in the city, I'm starting a new job that's located in a place I can commute to by bus. That means I don't need the car any more, since in the city supermarkets and all that are also in walk or bus distance.

Selling my car, which I'm planning to do soon, will save me money. It will ALSO simultaneously:
- mean I don't have to sit around in a box in a line of traffic concentrating very hard while sitting still, which I hate doing
- mean I get additional exercise every day once my job starts, walking to and from the bus stop or even the whole way if it's nice weather, meaning I don't have to spend time doing a separate extra walk to build in exercise
- get me extra vitamin D when it's sunny from walking everywhere
- improve my mood because I like walking
- allow me to see more of the city in detail
- help me become more eco-friendly, which means I'm living in closer alignment with my principles
- give me strength exercise from carrying things like shopping while I'm walking
- if I'm on the bus, when I'm familiar with the route I can do things like write poetry while I'm on the bus, instead of concentrating like I would be when driving

So overall, walking and bussing instead of driving is a huge net BENEFIT to my happiness, much more integrated with my overall aims for life, AND saves me money!

[Zikoris]

Wow, 3 straw men in the same post.. that'll take some beating.

If you can retire at 35 on $30k/yr then you are NOT a low earner

Not a low earner, but you don't have to be super high income to hit that. We're shooting for about 28K as a couple, and neither of us has ever been high income (receptionist and freelance editor) - we're 33 and 35 and looking at dialing it in soon. Frugal living greatly reduces the level of income required to retire young.

[Kwill]

...
Where I would say the gap is almost non-existent is in high-end supermarket range, eg the M&S "Best Ever" range - I would say is "restaurant quality", however it does costs more - you are talking £6-£8 for a pie or lasagne, not a £1 frozen job.

Ready-made pie or lasagne from the supermarket doesn't count as homemade, does it? Supermarket spending is going to vary a lot depending on whether you are buying ingredients to cook with or meals to heat up.

Well when I cook a homemade one it usually doesn't cost a whole lost less. £3 for a lb of beef, £2 cheese, £1 lasange sauce, £1 cheese sause, a few pence for onion, seasoning, gets you to the same place as the ready-made meal. Admittedly I'd probably get 3 meals out of it rather than the 2 I'd normally get from a the ready meal. Oh, and the secret to a good homemade lasagne is lots of cheese.

I'd make mine a vegetarian one, which is cheaper.  Not everyone has to eat meat all the time.   Are you buying the sauces? As I grow my own onions and tomatoes a red sauce is pennies and the flour, butter and milk for the cheese sauce not much more.

One of the tricks to living cheaply is to stop buying stuff.   I shop once a week for fresh food, once every two months for a store cupboard stock up, and mostly don't buy much else at all, I can easily go a month without spending on anything except food and household bills (tax, electricity, phone/internet etc.).  If you stop buying stuff life is pretty cheap.

Even without a garden, making sauce can be cheaper than buying it. I don't make lasagne but often make spaghetti with red sauce. Spaghetti was 20p and tinned chopped tomatoes were 28p a can last time with Tesco. I like to have frozen chopped onions and frozen beef mince on hand so that I can use small amounts in spaghetti sauce or chilli with less fuss and no waste. Sainsbury's and Tesco have stopped carrying frozen onions, but I was able to find frozen chopped onions and peppers at Iceland. Dried herbs and spices last for years and are easy to keep on hand. Maybe they lose some flavour over time, but they still add a lot. Jars of minced garlic are handy. I keep grated cheese in the freezer so that I can use a little at a time without it going bad.

[BookLoverL]

There are definitely bloggers for sure that do exaggerate, but yeah, I think most people in their journals are being authentic. And blogs that seem non-commercialised are probably also being authentic. There are a lot of people, both here and at ERE, who have been genuinely living low spending for a long time.


Also, sorry, I'm still laughing at the idea that it's my dislike of restaurant food that gets someone to think I am winding them up. XD I have indeed been to a lot of mediocre restaurants when people have made me go to restaurants. I've got better stuff to do than wind people up, and I definitely didn't create an account in this forum like 4 years ago and ERE like 2 years ago or something just so I could wind people up. Actually I hate arguing with people, I only like friendly debates...

Even without a garden, making sauce can be cheaper than buying it. I don't make lasagne but often make spaghetti with red sauce. Spaghetti was 20p and tinned chopped tomatoes were 28p a can last time with Tesco. I like to have frozen chopped onions and frozen beef mince on hand so that I can use small amounts in spaghetti sauce or chilli with less fuss and no waste. Sainsbury's and Tesco have stopped carrying frozen onions, but I was able to find frozen chopped onions and peppers at Iceland. Dried herbs and spices last for years and are easy to keep on hand. Maybe they lose some flavour over time, but they still add a lot. Jars of minced garlic are handy. I keep grated cheese in the freezer so that I can use a little at a time without it going bad.

What Kwill is saying here is exactly the type of thing that enables good, cheap home cooking.

[former player]

Its not race to the bottom spending. It's I want FI asap and possibly RE too so I can do whatever I want in life. So I'm not going to buy that clown car or house or blow my hard earned money on consumer crap everyone else says I need to be happy. Especially if those things  don't make my life any better. So maybe a race towards a better more fulfilling life of freedom (even just FU freedom) rather then to some bottom.

In it's most idealized form, sure. But wanting to retire ASAP doesn't explain the weird games people play with their numbers to make them smaller. (unless someone is trying to market themselves as a PF guru and monetize their writing, but I'll take at face value that most of the prominent FIRE voices were financially independent before they started making blog income, so I think we can safely disregard that possibility in most cases)

Passing judgement against people in our lives for their consumption doesn't help us retire faster, but we have a whole sub-forum dedicated to doing just that.

I agree a lot of the FIRE bloggers are borderline fraudulent about their spending,  or that their definition of FIRE and how they obtained and maintained it are not completely truthful (i.e. Frugalwoods) but I think the regular non-blogger people here, including "original pre-blog money MMM", are being truthful and do a good job explaining how they keep expenses low in their particular situation. Whether others choose to believe it or not, or believe it's an actual happy life, isn't anything we can do about.

You are right: the pre blog-money MMM was hard to fault on his accounting.   The blog hundreds of thousands in income took their toll, although some of it was clearly business expenses other spending looked dodgy set against the earlier values.