Interesting article Re: "privilege" of successful millenials

[SwordGuy]

My problem with our obsession with privilege is that it's self defeating.  When you focus on what privileges you don't have you make yourself into a victim.  Suddenly, you have no control in your life because you can't control the privileges you were born with.  Once you cede control of your life, it's not going to get any better - it will probably get worse!

Focusing on changing behavior is 100% inside your circle of influence.  It can actually make your life better.  Pulling the focus to privilege won't make anything better. 

--all these "you"s are in generic reference to people in general.  I'm not trying to single someone out.

So, two people, one with "privilege" and one without "privilege".   What should they do differently to follow MMM's excellent financial advice?

I argue that both should follow the same advice.   

People need to focus on what skills and resources they have and what they can do to improve their situation.  Control what you can control.  Influence what you can influence.   Forget about the rest.

Actually that is not true.  Knowing what you are against allows you to plan to compensate for it.

[Gretamom]

Interesting article.
I never had any help & neither did my husband. No college help, no child care help, no financial help, etc. It is somewhat annoying when friends of ours who have tons of help complain about how "hard" things are. Really?
I try to remember that it's hard for them to understand what it might be like to have no help whatsoever & I also try to remember that my situation could be worse.

[kendallf]

My problem with our obsession with privilege is that it's self defeating.  When you focus on what privileges you don't have you make yourself into a victim.  Suddenly, you have no control in your life because you can't control the privileges you were born with.  Once you cede control of your life, it's not going to get any better - it will probably get worse!

Focusing on changing behavior is 100% inside your circle of influence.  It can actually make your life better.  Pulling the focus to privilege won't make anything better. 

--all these "you"s are in generic reference to people in general.  I'm not trying to single someone out.

Actually that is not true.  Knowing what you are against allows you to plan to compensate for it.

No really, it's self defeating. Whiners and failures are the ones who focus on those who "had it so much easier" as an excuse for their failure.

Don't conflate personal responsibility and action with societal policy and action.  Taking personal responsibility and working and planning for success does not mean you cannot recognize privilege (or lack of it). 

More importantly, you can support law and policy designed to help level the playing field, while recognizing that there are those who will not take advantage of their opportunities, or will game the system, and while simultaneously working hard to better yourself, whatever hand you've been dealt.

Politicians (and some in this thread) seem to want to make it a zero sum game; if I help you, it hurts me.  Bullshit.  You are still in control of your future and your choices, and the impact of those choices is vastly more important to your success than the capital gains tax rate.

[Zikoris]

Another millennial without rich parents checking in. They never paid for post-secondary education for me, which I'm totally fine with because I tried it for a year and decided it was bullshit anyways. There are many paths to wealth that don't involve writing pointless essays or jumping through whatever hoops schools come up with these days. Learning for the sake of personal development or interest is free thanks to the library and internet.

[bludreamin]

Some of the people here have already said things I was thinking (and probably much more eloquently). I had a hard time reading this article without thinking "WTF!" and "BS!" at least every other sentence. My main gripe is that it does imply that those who are "successful" are only because they got it from mommy or daddy.  So because I own a house, have a car, and consistently put money away for retirement that means I must of have rich parents?  Sorry no, I work my ass off for what I have and try to make the best decisions/choice I can. It's "amazing" what hard work will do.

I was raised by a single mother with a high school diploma and a few years service in the Navy to made max $55K by the time I graduated high school. While my mom did (and continues) to provide amazing emotional support, she  didn't provide much financial support after I started college - I got free room and board during the breaks and summer between yr 1 and 2, a fridge full of food when she visited, and other similar (much appreciated) gestures.   I made my through undergraduate and graduate degree with scholarships, work, student loans (graduated with masters degree and $44K), no credit card debt, as well as, frugality, respect for money as a tool, and an understanding that when you have bills to pay no job is beneath you (last 3 courtesy of mom). When I graduate college and couldn't find a position in my field, I took a job at Target to pay my bills and continued my search for a position in my field. When I found work in my field, I  chose the job in an area with low housing costs to make my $55K starting salary go further and started paying my student loans back as quickly as possible. I did slow down loan payback for a few months to save up for a small down payment on a $110K home (I went with an FHA mortgage - face punch if you must). With focus I was able to get my student loans paid off in 5 years. Now, my big concern is determining where to focus my extra money - mortgage or retirement investments.

I acknowledge that I was "privileged" to be born in the US, born with good health and cognitive abilities, live during a time where a woman support herself as an engineer, and also live when there is decent access to credit. Oh, and I also recognize that I was privileged with a gift (from grandmother) of a 2002 Toyota Corolla when I graduated from the masters program - the car is still going strong (despite what the rust spots may suggest) and I'm looking forward to many more years with her.

The only advice I could give the author of the original article (other than "STFU and grow up") is to stop worrying about what you don't have, figure out what you do have and what you want, determine what you need to do to get it, and then work your ass of to get it. If you aren't willing to work for whatever "it" is, you don't deserve it.

Look! Another exceptional person. Congratulations on being exceptional.

At age 21 you made more than the median household income. More than 50% of US Households made less money than you.

I'm not sure why such talented, smart, and capable people can't wrap their brains around the fact that they are outliers.

If you want to place bets on the outcome of a marginally talented youth and a marginally talented youth with high income parents I'm picking the second kid every time.

I suppose I should acknowledge I'm an outlier as well.  I would also contend that talent and opportunities being equal, the outcome would be at least as equally influenced by work ethic as it is by parents bank account amount.

[r3dt4rget]

Look! Another exceptional person. Congratulations on being exceptional.

At age 21 you made more than the median household income. More than 50% of US Households made less money than you.

I'm not sure why such talented, smart, and capable people can't wrap their brains around the fact that they are outliers.

If you want to place bets on the outcome of a marginally talented youth and a marginally talented youth with high income parents I'm picking the second kid every time.

If we have enough exceptions, maybe the exceptional are not so exceptional after all? Perhaps the comlainypants articles like this are the ones we read because the successful millennials are not sitting around making excuses about their bad choices?

- another exception to the rich parents privilege

[Left]

I always thought the whiners were the outliers... they didn't want to participate in the normal jobs economy so they whine about how everyone with a job is exceptional... Namely, there are more employed people than there are unemployed... wonder who is the outlier here...

So yes, I do blame the millenials that aren't aren't "being successful" as outliers themselves... and I don't even measure success by amount of money they make. I measure it in if they are happy with where they are in life. I don't make "a lot" but that's just my own definition of "a lot". But I am happy where I am in life so I'm "successful" enough.

[Vertical Mode]

Chiming in as a millennial. I've found that the 'privilege' discussion always gets thorny because the word itself suggests a judgment being made about others' ethics and what they deserve. There are myriad emotions and biases that get wrapped up in this, and we'd all do well to remember that.

On how this relates to PF: I think one of the most important things my parents did for me when I got curious was to show me how money worked, and then lead by example, demonstrating for a young and impressionable kid how they did it. 'Teaching a man to fish', so to speak, and they showed me the books to reinforce the concepts they discussed. Others have mentioned the possibility that in a generational sense, financial literacy could well be being passed down by example by parents who have made wise financial decisions, perpetuating the advantages of having done so. My own experience so far would support that assertion.

I feel as if I've seen some of the best and some of the worst of this - I certainly know a few entitled millennials, but there are also those who had tall hurdles and kicked ass anyway. Millennials are now the largest demographic in America, so there is bound to be considerable range that undermines attempts at blanket characterization. I will say that I see a strong correlation between work ethic/discipline and financial success among my millennial friends, but really there are so many variables life can throw at us. Regardless of where we start, all we can do is be accountable to ourselves and make informed decisions to improve our chances.

To quote Kanye West on the subject:

"...Back in college, I had to get my back up off the futon/
Knew that I couldn't cop a coupe wit' no coupons..."

(from 'Southside', w/ Common)

[Lynne]

If we have enough exceptions, maybe the exceptional are not so exceptional after all?

In this crowd?  Most of the people here are outliers, by the nature of the site.

Privilege reflects the difficulty setting you're on in the game of life.  Some people play life on a lower difficulty setting;  doesn't mean they don't have challenges to overcome too, but it does mean that on average a higher percentage of them will succeed, compared to the people with a higher difficulty setting.

There are the complainers who don't even try to improve their lives, but there are also people who are trying but just have the deck stacked against them a lot more than others, and I do have sympathy for that.  It would be nice if we could all start life on a more level playing field;  I'm actually not as concerned about financial differences, but if all kids could grow up in stable and nonabusive homes, that would be a really good start.  Whether you get a financial support for tuition or a down payment matters less to your life outcomes, I think, than whether you had a loving and emotionally supportive family growing up.

[mathlete]

For anyone wondering why the millennial part is relevant it is because millennials are coming of age in a time in which seeking higher education without loans is pretty much cost prohibitive. Furthermore low skill, middle income work is disappearing pretty quickly.

I really am surprised that in a forum full of really smart people, a majority of the reactions run the gamut from,

"Rich parents don't mean everything, I mean, my parents were rich but all I got was competitive hourly pay for doing chores and a paltry $30K in tuition assistance and I turned out just fine,"

to

"I once ran a 100 meter dash where I started from 20 meters behind everyone else and I won so in reality no one really has a head start at all and if you acknowledge that anyone starts from behind or in front of the starting line you're probably just a whiner."

We seem to like anecdotes today so I'll summarize the one about my girlfriend again. 5 siblings. 5 dice rolls of the same genetic material raised in the same shitty environment and one person (my gf) out of five escaped poverty.

People have questioned why it is important to acknowledge the role that privilege plays, and that is a good question. Here is an answer I've come up with that I think is as good as any. The BLS and the CBO report that while per employee productivity has increased over the past several decades, laborers are taking home a smaller share of wages. Right now a huge chunk of the country will hear that and conclude that everyone just needs to stop complaining and work harder. They'll say that in the face of information that suggests that the American worker is more productive than ever.

[mathlete]

In this crowd?  Most of the people here are outliers, by the nature of the site.

Privilege reflects the difficulty setting you're on in the game of life.  Some people play life on a lower difficulty setting;  doesn't mean they don't have challenges to overcome too, but it does mean that on average a higher percentage of them will succeed, compared to the people with a higher difficulty setting.

There are the complainers who don't even try to improve their lives, but there are also people who are trying but just have the deck stacked against them a lot more than others, and I do have sympathy for that.  It would be nice if we could all start life on a more level playing field;  I'm actually not as concerned about financial differences, but if all kids could grow up in stable and nonabusive homes, that would be a really good start.  Whether you get a financial support for tuition or a down payment matters less to your life outcomes, I think, than whether you had a loving and emotionally supportive family growing up.

Wow. Said it better than I could in so many ways. :-D

I especially liked the part about how this community is self selecting. Most of us are here precisely because we're really smart and/or something in our brain chemistry gets us really jazzed about resource management.

[Vertical Mode]

People have questioned why it is important to acknowledge the role that privilege plays, and that is a good question. Here is an answer I've come up with that I think is as good as any. The BLS and the CBO report that while per employee productivity has increased over the past several decades, laborers are taking home a smaller share of wages. Right now a huge chunk of the country will hear that and conclude that everyone just needs to stop complaining and work harder. They'll say that in the face of information that suggests that the American worker is more productive than ever.

I'm pretty sure our friend Jeb Bush said almost literally this just last week...

To add to your first point, we're also coming of age in a time where income inequality/wealth distribution is astronomically skewed, and the effects of this on many aspects of American life are more apparent than ever. People are noticing. Criminal justice outcomes ('Affluenza' defense, anyone?), buying political sway like it's a fucking NASCAR sponsorship, etc.

[Bajadoc]

People have questioned why it is important to acknowledge the role that privilege plays, and that is a good question. Here is an answer I've come up with that I think is as good as any. The BLS and the CBO report that while per employee productivity has increased over the past several decades, laborers are taking home a smaller share of wages. Right now a huge chunk of the country will hear that and conclude that everyone just needs to stop complaining and work harder. They'll say that in the face of information that suggests that the American worker is more productive than ever.

I'm pretty sure our friend Jeb Bush said almost literally this just last week...

To add to your first point, we're also coming of age in a time where income inequality/wealth distribution is astronomically skewed, and the effects of this on many aspects of American life are more apparent than ever. People are noticing. Criminal justice outcomes ('Affluenza' defense, anyone?), buying political sway like it's a fucking NASCAR sponsorship, etc.

Things have always been "skewed." There has never been a time when everything has been "fair." Develop a skill, work, save, defer gratification, live below your means, marry someone with similar values, plan ahead for children and retirement, live simply. You can.

[Lynne]

In this crowd?  Most of the people here are outliers, by the nature of the site.

Privilege reflects the difficulty setting you're on in the game of life.  Some people play life on a lower difficulty setting;  doesn't mean they don't have challenges to overcome too, but it does mean that on average a higher percentage of them will succeed, compared to the people with a higher difficulty setting.

There are the complainers who don't even try to improve their lives, but there are also people who are trying but just have the deck stacked against them a lot more than others, and I do have sympathy for that.  It would be nice if we could all start life on a more level playing field;  I'm actually not as concerned about financial differences, but if all kids could grow up in stable and nonabusive homes, that would be a really good start.  Whether you get a financial support for tuition or a down payment matters less to your life outcomes, I think, than whether you had a loving and emotionally supportive family growing up.

Wow. Said it better than I could in so many ways. :-D

I especially liked the part about how this community is self selecting. Most of us are here precisely because we're really smart and/or something in our brain chemistry gets us really jazzed about resource management.

I liked your anecdote about your girlfriend too.  Here's another along the same lines:  I am the only one of the four siblings in my family to graduate from university.  I went to university in the first place in the face of parental opposition because I desperately wanted out of poverty.  And I succeeded despite some setbacks none of my uni friends really understood or had to face (like lending money to my parents, bad decision but I was young and stupid).  None of my siblings managed to do the same thing.  They are still struggling in ways that wouldn't be the case if our family background were different.  Yes, people absolutely have to take personal responsibility for their own lives, but...the difficulty setting you're on makes a difference.

(I should give credit for the difficulty setting analogy to John Scalzi, who wrote a blog post on it a while back;  I didn't come up with it, but I really like it.  :) )

[Vertical Mode]

People have questioned why it is important to acknowledge the role that privilege plays, and that is a good question. Here is an answer I've come up with that I think is as good as any. The BLS and the CBO report that while per employee productivity has increased over the past several decades, laborers are taking home a smaller share of wages. Right now a huge chunk of the country will hear that and conclude that everyone just needs to stop complaining and work harder. They'll say that in the face of information that suggests that the American worker is more productive than ever.

I'm pretty sure our friend Jeb Bush said almost literally this just last week...

To add to your first point, we're also coming of age in a time where income inequality/wealth distribution is astronomically skewed, and the effects of this on many aspects of American life are more apparent than ever. People are noticing. Criminal justice outcomes ('Affluenza' defense, anyone?), buying political sway like it's a fucking NASCAR sponsorship, etc.

Things have always been "skewed." There has never been a time when everything has been "fair." Develop a skill, work, save, defer gratification, live below your means, marry someone with similar values, plan ahead for children and retirement, live simply. You can.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. I just think there's more media noise and awareness about these issues now than there has been in the past, which highlights several of the ways in which the system is 'skewed'.

[okonumiyaki]

Nature and Nurture both matter.

There is a strong bias to think success is a result of our own efforts, disregarding luck.  Yep - the harder you work, the luckier you get as a famous golfer once said, but that doesn't help you make a living as a golfer if (to use an extreme example) you lost a limb in a childhood accident.

I've been extremely lucky, and, in the most part, worked to increase that luck.  But I grew up in India, and know that if I had been born to an illiterate landless labourer, I would have been screwed, no ifs or buts about it.  I like to think I would have become a revolutionary, and at least try to violently overthrow such an unfair system, but the reality is that revolutions tend to be led by students/ middle class, the true destitute just don't have time beyond survival.  And as I on the winning side, I have no incentive to try and change the system.

[sheepstache]

To continue the excellent video game analogy, here are two problems that happen when we ignore privilege:

1) People playing on the easy setting assume that everyone else is and therefore anyone who isn't doing as well as they are must be stupid or lazy.

2) People on the difficult setting may not realize they're on the difficult setting, look at other people who are doing so much better
 than they are (on the easy setting) and decide that they are just no good at the game and become disheartened and even give up entirely.


For the people insisting that acknowledgement of privilege is the same thing as victim mentality, think of it this way: It should be fine to discuss privilege, because there will always be exceptional outliers who talk about privilege without succumbing to victim mentality and everyone can be exceptional so it's not really a problem :)

[sheepstache]

Also, can I point something out? The "privilege" discussion is happening because the OP put it in the title. The article uses the word once. Towards the end it quotes a study which refers to a "funnel of privilege." It's just using privilege in the usual way, not in the "white/hetero/etc privilege" way.

[asiljoy]

This has been a conversation that has been going on for literally over 150 years.
------------
In the 1840's, Thomas Carlyle posited that history moved forward/was changed because of singularly, extraordinary "Great Men". Per Carlyle, these men made impact through divine inspiration/their own character.

VS

Herbet Spencer, who theorized that Carlyle's "Great Men" were only great because of those that had paved the way before them and were merely products of their environment.

[Left]

For anyone wondering why the millennial part is relevant it is because millennials are coming of age in a time in which seeking higher education without loans is pretty much cost prohibitive. Furthermore low skill, middle income work is disappearing pretty quickly.

Again... not really true :S there's lots of money going around that makes college "cheap" or free... millennials aren't taking advantage of them... This is what I don't get, they know that they can't afford it at face value, and yet instead of doing their research on ways to minimize that cost, they just take out a loan for the face value... What about applying for scholarships/grants/working for a place with tuition reimbursement? Taking some college classes in high school so you can "write" them off upon entering college? When millennials complain that the older guys have it easier for college.... well yeah, they knew to take advantage of the money out there, GI bill, work programs, etc.

edit: and by applying for scholarships, I mean more than FAFSA, that's only ONE scholarship/grant... there are 1000s out there

my video game analogy, they sit around whining about why they can't play the game when they didn't get off the coach and press the power button to turn it on

[2lazy2retire]

Not everyone is exceptional.

If everyone were exceptional, nobody would be.

(edit: grammar)

Stupid?

[act0fgod]

Most individuals in the United States are decedents of immigrants and in nearly every generation immigrants were discriminated against.  Those exceptional people who are the outliers are going to work hard and succeed.  Excellence knows no color, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation or whatever category we want to make.

My officemate is black and I do agree with him that there is something to the historical suppression argument, but I don't believe that argument will be valid for much longer (I really hope).

I admit in the race analogy we all start at different points but luckily in life there are lots of winners and we all have a different idea on where the finish line is.

[Ramblin' Ma'am]

"Millions of America’s young people are really struggling financially. Around 30 percent are living with their parents"

And here's where I rolled my eyes. When I graduated college, I wasn't even allowed to move back home. It was expected that when I graduated college, I would figure out a way to provide for myself. And I was working in retail, earning less than $8 an hour, in one of the most expensive cities in the country.

I was born in 1982, so I guess technically I'm in the first year of the "millenial" generation, but I don't relate to them at all. They seem to think they are the only ones who have ever had it tough. Sorry, but if you are living rent-free with your parents as an adult, then there are millions of people who have it harder than you.

[LouLou]

"Millions of America’s young people are really struggling financially. Around 30 percent are living with their parents"

And here's where I rolled my eyes. When I graduated college, I wasn't even allowed to move back home. It was expected that when I graduated college, I would figure out a way to provide for myself. And I was working in retail, earning less than $8 an hour, in one of the most expensive cities in the country.

I was born in 1982, so I guess technically I'm in the first year of the "millenial" generation, but I don't relate to them at all. They seem to think they are the only ones who have ever had it tough. Sorry, but if you are living rent-free with your parents as an adult, then there are millions of people who have it harder than you.

I rolled my eyes for a different reason - many of my friends who moved back in with their parents are doing the best!  Great degrees from great universities.  Good jobs too.  Instead of spending money on rent, they saved for down payments.  Now they own condos or single family homes.  It was the equivalent of family money for a downpayment, except that their families had an extra bedroom instead of a check.  Worked out great for them.

Personally, I'm a big fan of multigenerational living and think people should do it more often when they're relationships allow.

[asiljoy]

"Millions of America’s young people are really struggling financially. Around 30 percent are living with their parents"

And here's where I rolled my eyes. When I graduated college, I wasn't even allowed to move back home. It was expected that when I graduated college, I would figure out a way to provide for myself. And I was working in retail, earning less than $8 an hour, in one of the most expensive cities in the country.

I was born in 1982, so I guess technically I'm in the first year of the "millenial" generation, but I don't relate to them at all. They seem to think they are the only ones who have ever had it tough. Sorry, but if you are living rent-free with your parents as an adult, then there are millions of people who have it harder than you.

I rolled my eyes for a different reason - many of my friends who moved back in with their parents are doing the best!  Great degrees from great universities.  Good jobs too.  Instead of spending money on rent, they saved for down payments.  Now they own condos or single family homes.  It was the equivalent of family money for a downpayment, except that their families had an extra bedroom instead of a check.  Worked out great for them.

Personally, I'm a big fan of multigenerational living and think people should do it more often when they're relationships allow.

Great example of why making sweeping generalizations from statistics without supporting information is a mistake.

[Hall11235]

I think that offering to pay half of what scholarship don't cover is valid, up to a point. One thing my father did for me was that he never had me work without paying me. He would NEVER hand me money, but, as far back as I can remember, he would give me 10 dollars an hour for any job I did. This taught me the value of sweat and work. I mowed the lawn more times than I can remember and painted our old house top to bottom all by myself so no one could take part of the profit away from me. I will nod my head at privileged (what a buzzword that is these days). I am privileged, and I acknowledge that. Enough said on the matter.

My father is fairly wealthy. He offered to pay for half of what scholarships didn't cover and the rest was on me. In retrospect, I was not aware I could pay my student loans while still in college otherwise my debt would be smaller. It ended up being 30k in debt for me and about the same that he paid via credit card (to get the miles) and would then immediately pay off that debt.

The thing about privilege is that people with it often have a hard time recognizing that they even have it.

You got paid $3 an hour over minimum wage to do your chores and $30,000 is tuition assistance.

Maybe you misread me, but I acknowledge that my "difficulty setting" is probably not "heroic" or "legendary," but, despite help from my father, I have been in pretty grim situations. From ages 3-8 (my parents divorced when I was 1 and I spent most of my time with my mother), my mother was basically unemployed and lived on my dad's child support check. We barely had enough money for food and we lived in my aunt's house for a year. Does this mean my life was exceedingly difficult? No. But I can empathize with what that situation is like and it totally blows. The problem, at least for me, is that it is unbelievable hard to institute a more level playing field. Simply acknowledging your or others' head starts does nothing to alleviate the problem.

[Ramblin' Ma'am]

"Millions of America’s young people are really struggling financially. Around 30 percent are living with their parents"

And here's where I rolled my eyes. When I graduated college, I wasn't even allowed to move back home. It was expected that when I graduated college, I would figure out a way to provide for myself. And I was working in retail, earning less than $8 an hour, in one of the most expensive cities in the country.

I was born in 1982, so I guess technically I'm in the first year of the "millenial" generation, but I don't relate to them at all. They seem to think they are the only ones who have ever had it tough. Sorry, but if you are living rent-free with your parents as an adult, then there are millions of people who have it harder than you.

I rolled my eyes for a different reason - many of my friends who moved back in with their parents are doing the best!  Great degrees from great universities.  Good jobs too.  Instead of spending money on rent, they saved for down payments.  Now they own condos or single family homes.  It was the equivalent of family money for a downpayment, except that their families had an extra bedroom instead of a check.  Worked out great for them.

Personally, I'm a big fan of multigenerational living and think people should do it more often when they're relationships allow.

I'm OK with that if everyone is contributing to the household and pitching in. I just think it's funny if people complain about others being privileged but don't recognize the advantages they're being given. Even if you don't have a great job--working a low-wage job rent free is way better than working a low-wage job and paying rent.

[I'm a red panda]

Number of people in this thread who are refuting something that is

A.) A fairly obvious conclusion and
B.) Backed up by empirical data

by sharing anecdotes that start with them getting $30K+ in parental tuition assistance and end with them being upper middle class homeowners:

2 and counting.

This is pretty funny, I'm sorry.

Hope you aren't counting me in that.
First- I acknowledge I was extremely privileged; I wasn't refuting that having rich parents helped. Having rich parents has helped EVERY generation ever- not just millenials.
Second, my education was downright cheap (Tuition has gone up 60% at my university in 15 years.); costs have skyrocketed during this generation. My entire B.S. cost about $15,000 (with fees) and 3/4 of that was paid by scholarships.   So I certainly didn't get $30k+ in parental tuition assistance.

[use2betrix]

I'm a millennial. I'm 27.

I grew up lower middle class. Growing up my parents gave me around $5 to mow the lawn. I passed out flyers and mowed neighbors lawns and raked leaves. I started working for cash at a restaurant at 13. My parents virtually never bought me anything other than food/clothes, other than birthday and Christmas presents. I worked and saved and bought what I wanted. They paid for part of my college but I still had 40k in student loans for a tech school and associates degree.

I remember when I was 12 I wanted a $200 bike. I had it put on layaway. After 6 months the layaway ended and I still hadn't made enough to pay it off. My parents paid it off, but I wasn't allowed to ride it until I paid them back. How's that a lesson for money? Before layaway I put on nice clothes and went to the bank trying to get a loan lol. My mom called them and let them know I'd be coming, which I didn't learn til I was older. I met with a loan officer and everything.

Part of college I couldn't find work so my parents paid some of my bills. When I graduated my mom mailed me an itemized bill with every dollar they loaned me, around $6000.

I paid them back every dollar and I am forever gracious.

By 21 I was making 55k, and it slowly grew. I believe this will be my 4th year making over 100k, and i'll probably make 200k.

I credit my parents a ton for my work ethic which has lead to my success. I work harder than anyone my age and have worked longer as well.

I have zero sympathy for whiny fucking millennial my age who use "rich parents" as an excuse while others are successful and they are not.

If you ask me, it's that worthless lazy defeating attitude as for the reason they're failing. Not the lack of parental support.

Beyond pathetic. I hold no one accountable except myself and I bust my tail. I haven't called in sick in probably 5+ years. I worked 75 hrs last week and grossed about $5700 for it.

I'd say 95% of the people failing out there have no one to blame but themselves.

Look! Another exceptional person. Congratulations on being exceptional.

At age 21 you made more than the median household income. More than 50% of US Households made less money than you.

I'm not sure why such talented, smart, and capable people can't wrap their brains around the fact that they are outliers.

If you want to place bets on the outcome of a marginally talented youth and a marginally talented youth with high income parents I'm picking the second kid every time.

There's a lot more to the statement of me being an outlier than by just claiming it.

I am an outlier in my success BECAUSE of my work ethic. That is something that doesn't require rich parents. In fact, some could argue that having less wealthy parents means one may have more work ethic, and also puts more thought into overcoming obstacles to be successful.

Fact of the matter is, millennial that aren't successful aren't that way because they didn't have rich parents, but they're that way because of choices they made, whether they knew better or not.

Any person who even openly acknowledges that "they aren't successful because they didn't have rich parents," already has a piss poor defeatest attitude, and I can promise you, it's that attitude that contributes to their lack of success more than anything.

[Matt_D]

I saw the article, but I think through a different lens than a lot of people here were viewing it.

First - forget the "millennials" reference - that's just shorthand for "young adults." Doesn't matter which generation so much.

Second - I thought the author's point was neither about themselves (complainypants) nor about any of you as individuals (finger-pointing). Rather, it was saying that the best predictor of success for young people today is that they had rich parents, and nothing else even comes close. Is that similar to the past? Yep. Is it necessarily what we want in today's society? Fair question, which is why the article got written. I'd say it worked, because we're here having a discussion about it!

A separate note on privilege: the point of acknowledging privilege isn't to say that someone who has it didn't work hard or doesn't deserve what they have. It's simply a note that when that person says, "I did this all myself and anyone who can't duplicate my efforts is lazy!" they are operating on unspoken assumptions that everyone had the opportunity to do what they have done - and that's simply not true. Everyone can certainly help themselves get to a better place, but what that looks like - and the level of effort involved - is going to vary considerably.

[Hall11235]

My problem with labeling things a privilege is that in today's vernacular it seems very derisive.  I understand wanting to take down the old "born on third and thinks he hit a triple" crowd, but on the other hand, do we as a society really want to stigmatize working hard and trying to help your kid have the best life he/she can?  Is that not something we want EVERYONE to be doing?  Yeah, I'm going to bust my ass and sacrifice and make sure I can pay for my daughter's education so she can get ahead, and I don't really want to listen to someone say she should be penalized or stigmatized because someone else's shithead parents couldn't be bothered to do the same.

I think this is kind of a self esteem issue. I'm a tall, straight, white guy and I have no problem admitting my privilege because my self-worth isn't tied into the financial success that I am purported to have gained solely through my own effort.

Just because I'm privileged doesn't mean that I'm not smart or conscientious or whatever, it just means if I were black, my life would be a lot harder or if I were raised in a single parent household, I might not have as much money as I do now.

I have no problem admitting that.

I don't think any of us are having problems admitting that as well. I also don't think that anyone here in this thread is saying "I did this all myself and anyone who can't duplicate my efforts is lazy!" Nor is our self-worth tied to our financial success. Lambasting us because we have privilege, however, seems to be a little hypocritical.

How about instead of just pointing out privilege, @Mathlete, try proposing real, workable solutions to ending or lessening  privilege. I admit that I'm not smart enough to come up with solutions to privilege that don't end in revolution or blood. I just came from a school in Northern Vermont where diversity is unheard of, yet people loved pointing out our privilege without also proposing a solution that is workable. That's what I want to hear.

People on this forum are excpetional, and I love that this community can have honest discussions like this. It makes my workday so much more entertaining (and yes, I acknowledge the privilege of even having a work day).

[MrsPete]

These, however, are not your run-of-the-mill Millennials. Nope. These Millennials have something very special: rich parents.

First I'd say that if 30% of Millennials are doing something, that thing isn't particularly special or unique.  We're talking about one out of every three. 

Second, I don't think it's a matter of having rich parents; rather, I suspect it has more to do with having parents who taught this 30% how to manage money. 

I'm thinking about my daughter and her roommate -- both college seniors at state universities, both with "rich parents" who are paying their tuition in full, both who will graduate debt-free, both in majors that'll allow them to move into good jobs right away.  Yet my daughter knows about money, whereas the stuff just flows through her roommate's hands without much thought.  I feel quite sure that although these two girls are starting at the same spot, five or ten years down the road their financial portfolios will look quite different. 

You can also compare to the Millionaire Nextdoor thinking, where giving your kid financial help hurts them.

You might want to read that chapter again.  The book actually says that the most common type of help millionaires received as "adult children" was college tuition money, and that was a positive in their lives.  What hurts is giving "adult children" money to allow them to live a lifestyle they couldn't afford on their own /allowing them to become accustomed to a lifestyle they can't continue to fund on their own. 

Yeah which is why conclusions that sound something like, "Exceptional people escape poverty so growing up in poverty is not a determinant in future success," are inaccurate.

Yes, I escaped poverty too.  Looking back, I know that I worked much harder than my middle-class peers, and I can see in retrospect some specific things that were HUGE helps to me.  However, not all kids in that same situation take advantage of those things.

As a high school teacher, I try so hard to help my kids who don't have guidance from home -- those who ask for help ... and some of them just won't step up to the plate, even after they ask for help.  I'm trying right now to work with three of them.  Nice girls, all very average academically, who claim they want to do better than their families of origin, want to go to school, etc.  So I helped them turn in applications to the community college during free applications week.  I showed them how to find a list of the classes they need to take, helped them develop two-year plans of classes, so excited to be taking steps towards their future, so grateful for the guidance ... but now that it's actually time to register, here's what's going on:

- One says she can't register now because she got a speeding ticket, which is $400+.  She has a job, and although this is a big bite of her paycheck, she's using it as an excuse not to begin her classes.  She's getting enough financial aid to pay her tuition.  She says she'll think about it again in the spring, or maybe next fall.  The truth is that someday she'll be middle aged, still working at that grocery store, and she'll say, "I couldn't go to college because of a speeding ticket.  I'm a victim." 

- One is newly pregnant (probably the single worst thing a teen can do to throw a monkey wrench into her financial future), and she says she can't possibly go to school this year while she's expecting.  She can, however, continue at her McDonald's job.  She wails that she's very disappointed and will absolutely, definitely, without doubt start classes next fall after her baby's born.  She says she won't need day care at all because her many friends are so anxious to babysit for her.  I talked to her about one of my previous students who, in the same situation, chose to delve into her lab classes during her pregnant semester, then enrolled in all online classes for the semester her daughter was born.  She won't graduate on time, but she is moving forward -- and I think we can all respect that.  The girl I'm trying to help right now just looked at me as if that were impossible.  Like so many girls, she genuinely thinks that pregnancy is more difficult than caring for a newborn.

- The third registered for her classes the very day that they became available -- just as I'd told her.  She's texted me a number of times about how to get books, etc.  She's nervous, but she is taking steps in the right direction.  The third girl doesn't have anything that the others don't have -- they're all poor enough to get financial aid, but not smart enough to get scholarships -- but she has a spark, a motivation to follow through with plans.  I predict two years from now she'll have that associate's degree in radiology, and the other two will have ... pretty much what they have right now. 

[mathlete]

There's a lot more to the statement of me being an outlier than by just claiming it.

I am an outlier in my success BECAUSE of my work ethic. That is something that doesn't require rich parents. In fact, some could argue that having less wealthy parents means one may have more work ethic, and also puts more thought into overcoming obstacles to be successful.

Fact of the matter is, millennial that aren't successful aren't that way because they didn't have rich parents, but they're that way because of choices they made, whether they knew better or not.

Any person who even openly acknowledges that "they aren't successful because they didn't have rich parents," already has a piss poor defeatest attitude, and I can promise you, it's that attitude that contributes to their lack of success more than anything.

I'm not sure anyone, including me or the article, is claiming the bolded.

I'm saying that you can't build a convincing argument about the importance (or lack thereof) of growing up with money on a foundation of anecdotes about outliers.

As I said before, at age 21, you made more than the median household income. You made more than 52% of American households of any age. By definition, a majority of people cannot and will not achieve those same results.

More useless anecdotes:

I made a similar number right out of college too but at a certain point I recognized that I'm an outlier. Most of my fellow millennial friends aren't doing so hot. Some of them are lazy and make dumb choices for sure, but at least two (that I can think of) have science undergrad degrees that they're trying to pay off at low wage jobs.

I have two friends who are doing really well. They're smart and conscientious for sure, but on top of that, they both grew up with money and graduated debt free. They're both now working great jobs and by the way, on top of them being fantastic people with great advantages, they're both pretty attractive and so they started dating. And thus the circle continues :P

None of this is to denigrate hard work or making wise choices. It's just to say that your hard work and wise choices are magnified by a pretty large factor if you grew up rich or if you grew up with an above average intelligence or something like that.

[MrsPete]

For anyone wondering why the millennial part is relevant it is because millennials are coming of age in a time in which seeking higher education without loans is pretty much cost prohibitive. Furthermore low skill, middle income work is disappearing pretty quickly.

Again... not really true :S there's lots of money going around that makes college "cheap" or free... millennials aren't taking advantage of them... This is what I don't get, they know that they can't afford it at face value, and yet instead of doing their research on ways to minimize that cost, they just take out a loan for the face value... What about applying for scholarships/grants/working for a place with tuition reimbursement? Taking some college classes in high school so you can "write" them off upon entering college? When millennials complain that the older guys have it easier for college.... well yeah, they knew to take advantage of the money out there, GI bill, work programs, etc.

edit: and by applying for scholarships, I mean more than FAFSA, that's only ONE scholarship/grant... there are 1000s out there

my video game analogy, they sit around whining about why they can't play the game when they didn't get off the coach and press the power button to turn it on

I thought you were going to jump on that old whine, Why doesn't everyone just get up and get themselves a scholarship?  Everyone can't do that -- they're few in number, and the majority of students, even smart and talented students who try, won't win one. 

But you're right to say that money is available:  Military, on campus jobs, choosing less expensive schools.  When I was in college in the 80s, everyone had a job of some sort; my daughter tells me today few of her friends work -- even in the summer.  She agrees that it's because borrowing is just so easy, and the attitude is, "Why work hard today?  Tomorrow I'll have a degree, which will make the loan easy to pay off." 

Couple that with the expectation that you owe it to yourself to attend "your dream school", and if you have to borrow, it's okay.  You'll be unhappy forever if you don't stay true to your inner dreams!  Actually, I think that attitude has changed over the last ten years. 

[MrsPete]

I am an outlier in my success BECAUSE of my work ethic. That is something that doesn't require rich parents. In fact, some could argue that having less wealthy parents means one may have more work ethic, and also puts more thought into overcoming obstacles to be successful.

I do suspect that most rich parents have a good work ethic ... and they'd pass that on to their kids. 

I totally buy into the idea that MOST rich parents are going to pass down now only money, but the habits and traits that lead to earning money (and saving money).   

[mathlete]

How about instead of just pointing out privilege, @Mathlete, try proposing real, workable solutions to ending or lessening  privilege. I admit that I'm not smart enough to come up with solutions to privilege that don't end in revolution or blood. I just came from a school in Northern Vermont where diversity is unheard of, yet people loved pointing out our privilege without also proposing a solution that is workable. That's what I want to hear.

People on this forum are excpetional, and I love that this community can have honest discussions like this. It makes my workday so much more entertaining (and yes, I acknowledge the privilege of even having a work day).

Step 1.) is convincing others that privilege exists, and then convincing them not to downplay it's role in determining outcomes. =D

After that, the hope is that discussions about actionable things will be framed not in the light of "These kids are just lazy, in my day we pulled ourselves up by our bootstraps. Besides, other kids like Mathlete who are exceptionally skilled in mathematics seemed to have no problem landing a high income job and buying a home."

and more in the light of,

"Oh shit, we sold the dream of college to every kid and now we're trying to funnel millions of students through college while at the same time pulling state funding from colleges leading to higher tuition while at the same time we've eliminated a lot of the middle income, low skill work that those non-college kids might have been doing before."

So if you want to parse that for actionable policy items, I guess states should be funding state schools more on the level of what they were doing two or three decades ago. College is just too expensive and making kids take on navigating the scholarship and financial aid landscape is mostly a waste of time.

Those low-skill, middle income jobs I talked about probably aren't coming back so I think we need to get used to the idea of paying retail, food-service, or other MW jobs a wage that they can prosper at.

I enjoy having these discussions during the work day too ;-)

[Lynne]

I think that offering to pay half of what scholarship don't cover is valid, up to a point. One thing my father did for me was that he never had me work without paying me. He would NEVER hand me money, but, as far back as I can remember, he would give me 10 dollars an hour for any job I did. This taught me the value of sweat and work. I mowed the lawn more times than I can remember and painted our old house top to bottom all by myself so no one could take part of the profit away from me. I will nod my head at privileged (what a buzzword that is these days). I am privileged, and I acknowledge that. Enough said on the matter.

My father is fairly wealthy. He offered to pay for half of what scholarships didn't cover and the rest was on me. In retrospect, I was not aware I could pay my student loans while still in college otherwise my debt would be smaller. It ended up being 30k in debt for me and about the same that he paid via credit card (to get the miles) and would then immediately pay off that debt.

The thing about privilege is that people with it often have a hard time recognizing that they even have it.

You got paid $3 an hour over minimum wage to do your chores and $30,000 is tuition assistance.

Maybe you misread me, but I acknowledge that my "difficulty setting" is probably not "heroic" or "legendary," but, despite help from my father, I have been in pretty grim situations. From ages 3-8 (my parents divorced when I was 1 and I spent most of my time with my mother), my mother was basically unemployed and lived on my dad's child support check. We barely had enough money for food and we lived in my aunt's house for a year. Does this mean my life was exceedingly difficult? No. But I can empathize with what that situation is like and it totally blows. The problem, at least for me, is that it is unbelievable hard to institute a more level playing field. Simply acknowledging your or others' head starts does nothing to alleviate the problem.

I think acknowledging it is important though.  If we don't acknowledge it, if we are wilfully blind to it as a society, then we definitely won't do anything about it.  There seems to be a strong cultural current that doesn't acknowledge it, too (not so much in this thread, but I've seen a lot of conversations about privilege devolve into a bunch of people insisting that their success is entirely due to their own efforts and therefore all of the people who don't succeed are just lazy or stupid or whatever.  That's the kind of opinion that, if widespread, means we don't make any progress on the issue.)

[mathlete]

Maybe you misread me, but I acknowledge that my "difficulty setting" is probably not "heroic" or "legendary," but, despite help from my father, I have been in pretty grim situations. From ages 3-8 (my parents divorced when I was 1 and I spent most of my time with my mother), my mother was basically unemployed and lived on my dad's child support check. We barely had enough money for food and we lived in my aunt's house for a year. Does this mean my life was exceedingly difficult? No. But I can empathize with what that situation is like and it totally blows. The problem, at least for me, is that it is unbelievable hard to institute a more level playing field. Simply acknowledging your or others' head starts does nothing to alleviate the problem.

I don't know you, so if I made you feel like I was making light of any struggles you may have gone through in your life, that wasn't my intent and I'm sorry.

"Simply acknowledging your or others' head starts does nothing to alleviate the problem."

Failing to acknowledge it exacerbates the problem though.

Check out, for example, this opinion piece on privilege written by a Princeton student:

http://theprincetontory.com/main/checking-my-privilege-character-as-the-basis-of-privilege/

The concept of "checking ones privilege" flies completely over his head. The piece is mostly a history of some times that his ancestors have struggled and has little to nothing to do with his own experience.

Beyond that I'm not sure his level of discourse is really befitting of someone admitted to Princeton but that's just a personal opinion.

The point is that this dude is going to Princeton. If this or some pretty dumb (and later deleted) tweets he made about the outcome of the Trayvon Martin case don't follow him, there is a good chance that he'll one day be in a business or political leadership position where he can influence policy.

[Hall11235]

Once again, we have reached an impasse where everyone agrees... damn it! Lol. And thank you for your apology. I was surrounded by complainypants in college who attacked all who had privilege except themselves (they always seem to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and attend a 50k/year college with no debt...)

So, in order to stir the pot
@Mathlete:
What do you think about this whole $15 dollars an hour? I know there is a thread on this, but I would like your opinion.
From an economic perspective, I feel as though it makes no sense. Minimum wage is an entirely arbitrary number, once you get down to it. It seems ridiculous that we could just jump the min wage by 2x and not suffer from a) medium/small business getting crushed (though, realistically, most small businesses aren't at a point where there size requires min wage jobs; the one who would suffer would be companies that are large but not huge (Think Caribou Coffee in the Midwest compared to Starbucks)), and b) that would cause a massive rise in inflation. Retailers would just up the prices to make up for the influx of cash (think Germany post-WW1, just on a smaller scale - bread might go from 1.20 a loaf to 2.40 a loaf). I am trying to not base this on moral objection - all people should make a livable wage - but, it seems as though the damage this could cause in the long run in worse than the problem it's trying to solve.

P.S. I reserve the right to change my opinion without getting torched if better evidence is presented.

[mathlete]

Once again, we have reached an impasse where everyone agrees... damn it! Lol. And thank you for your apology. I was surrounded by complainypants in college who attacked all who had privilege except themselves (they always seem to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and attend a 50k/year college with no debt...)

So, in order to stir the pot
@Mathlete:
What do you think about this whole $15 dollars an hour? I know there is a thread on this, but I would like your opinion.
From an economic perspective, I feel as though it makes no sense. Minimum wage is an entirely arbitrary number, once you get down to it. It seems ridiculous that we could just jump the min wage by 2x and not suffer from a) medium/small business getting crushed (though, realistically, most small businesses aren't at a point where there size requires min wage jobs; the one who would suffer would be companies that are large but not huge (Think Caribou Coffee in the Midwest compared to Starbucks)), and b) that would cause a massive rise in inflation. Retailers would just up the prices to make up for the influx of cash (think Germany post-WW1, just on a smaller scale - bread might go from 1.20 a loaf to 2.40 a loaf). I am trying to not base this on moral objection - all people should make a livable wage - but, it seems as though the damage this could cause in the long run in worse than the problem it's trying to solve.

P.S. I reserve the right to change my opinion without getting torched if better evidence is presented.

The whole "impact on small businesses" thing is really difficult. I don't spend a whole lot of time looking at the books of small businesses so I can't say with any authority what they can and cannot afford.

I just know that on a macro level, we can afford to be paying people more.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/data/historical/household/ Table H-3

In 2013 dollars, the bottom 40% of households have seen their income decline since 1990. The middle 20% of households are effectively flat. The fourth quintile has seen less than a 1% annualized gain while the top 20% of households are making about 1% more per year.

The top 5 percent has seen a 34% increase in income since 1990. Unfortunately the census doesn't keep stats on the "dreaded" 1%.

All this while aggregate income is increasing in the United States, so it's not like we don't have the money.

It's not hard to see why these numbers have skewed either. Capital gains rates fell under both Clinton and Bush. It seems silly now even thinking that the Bush tax cuts were thought of as "middle class" tax breaks at the time. They heavily favored the rich. The rich routinely get preferential treatment because the whole "job creator" notion has been a dramatically successful sales pitch. It got Clinton and the Republican Congress. It got Bush. And it even got Obama during the recession when the tax cuts were extend because of course we're not going to tax the "job creators" when unemployment is at 10%. Even as stocks recovered and the wealthy made millions though, the jobs took many many years to come back because the truth is that businesses don't hire because they have all this extra money around and they have to do something with it. They hire because more people with disposable income are demanding their products and services.

Demand drives job growth. Consumption drives job growth. Not more money in the hands of the rich.

The bottom 40% that I talked about, the guys who have lost income since 1990, they have the highest Marginal Propensity to Consume of all households. That is to say they are more likely to spend (i.e. consume with) each additional dollar they make. The rich have a relatively low MPC. So more money in the hands of the rich drives consumption down which reduces job growth.

We've got it all backwards.

I realize the I didn't answer your small business question. I guess the answer is that I don't know. :(

I guess maybe increased wages for high MPC individuals would drive more consumption which would be good for small business.

[immocardo]

Maybe you misread me, but I acknowledge that my "difficulty setting" is probably not "heroic" or "legendary," but, despite help from my father, I have been in pretty grim situations. From ages 3-8 (my parents divorced when I was 1 and I spent most of my time with my mother), my mother was basically unemployed and lived on my dad's child support check. We barely had enough money for food and we lived in my aunt's house for a year. Does this mean my life was exceedingly difficult? No. But I can empathize with what that situation is like and it totally blows. The problem, at least for me, is that it is unbelievable hard to institute a more level playing field. Simply acknowledging your or others' head starts does nothing to alleviate the problem.

I don't know you, so if I made you feel like I was making light of any struggles you may have gone through in your life, that wasn't my intent and I'm sorry.

"Simply acknowledging your or others' head starts does nothing to alleviate the problem."

Failing to acknowledge it exacerbates the problem though.

Check out, for example, this opinion piece on privilege written by a Princeton student:

http://theprincetontory.com/main/checking-my-privilege-character-as-the-basis-of-privilege/

The concept of "checking ones privilege" flies completely over his head. The piece is mostly a history of some times that his ancestors have struggled and has little to nothing to do with his own experience.

Beyond that I'm not sure his level of discourse is really befitting of someone admitted to Princeton but that's just a personal opinion.

The point is that this dude is going to Princeton. If this or some pretty dumb (and later deleted) tweets he made about the outcome of the Trayvon Martin case don't follow him, there is a good chance that he'll one day be in a business or political leadership position where he can influence policy.

In reading through this thread, what bugs me about your posts is how you define and "outlier".  You pick a single feature, label it as "privilege" and call it a day.

Imagine a theoretical person.

They were born in the worst economic status possible, parents are both in jail, no support system, living on the streets of a war torn country.  She is a blind, deaf, mute, mentally handicapped minority.  Her beliefs are a minority, she is dyslexic, has asthma.  ETC ETC ETC.  You get the point.  She is literally the LEAST privileged person alive.  You can not argue with this.  Assume that it is fact because there is someone out there who is the least privileged.

We will call here Jane.  Ooops, having Jane as a name probably gives her privilege because when applying for jobs because she has a standard name and people will assume she's white.  But stop it, she's the least privileged person that exists.

Now.  By your arguments, the moment she succeeds.  She is an "outlier". The moment she works hard, she becomes better than the least privileged person.  She has "hard work privilege", and she is an exception instead of the rule.

I'm a white male with a well above average IQ.  The writing below this line should not be read under any circumstances, due to these words coming from a place of EXTREME privilege.  As with questions of race, equality, and gender (among other things), I am not allowed to speak on the concept of privilege.

Privilege discussions bug me.  Not because I don't believe they exist, but because I know they do.  It bugs me because it doesn't do anything.  We are not all above average.  We never will be. 

I'm going to say that one more time

Half of people will be below average.  (I'm not going to nitpick over mean and median here, you get the point.)

And once you accept that, you also have to accept this sad but true fact.  The only way a below average person can become above average is by taking someone else's spot.  This holds for the top 50%, the top 10%, the top 1%.  And even for Jane.  The only way she can avoid achieving anything by having "privilege" is by gaining "privilege" herself.

Now, bringing it full circle to mustachianism.  Maybe we should stop gauging success based on a the finish line.  Lets instead base success on the distance traveled.  Because when you step back and do that, does it really matter where you started?

[Case]

For everything to be fair, everyone needs to be identical.  No doubt, skin color gives some people advantages.  Having parents pay for stuff gives some people advantages.  Being naturally smarter, stronger, etc... gives some people advantages.

All of this stuff makes for a major challenge for the country; how do we make it fair enough for everyone?  Answer is, you can't.  At some point, you have to accept your disadvantages and move forward.  Yes, financial assistance for those that can't afford college is a good thing.  But if you spend a lot of time complaining about it, then you're not helping yourself.

Inheritance is at the heart of the problem.  But it is a problem inherent to society.  People want society to be fair AND they want to provide well for their children.  But by providing well for their children, they are giving them a leg up on anyone who has less money, who has worse parents, etc...  I can tell you one thing; inheritance will never go away.  It is ingrained in our DNA to support our loves ones.

I support being aware of the privileges.  This is a good thing.  I do not support guilt tripping people because of the advantages they have.  Let them figure it out for themselves and decide for themselves how to proceed with their lives.  There are problems at both ends; too many people that have ridiculous inheritance benefits, and too many people that spend more time complaining than actually moving their lives forward.

[crazyworld]

I suppose you could say that the "privilege" argument is the opposite of the "pull yourself by the bootstraps " argument, that we also have on this forum from time to time. If one side believes the other side is whiny and lazy, the flip side is pointing out the advantages some on the other side have enjoyed.

[Hall11235]

@Mathlete:

Trickle Down economics has been laughed at by every economist worth his salt since the Reagan-era. The only people who believe this works are politicians and economists bought out by politicians. No argument from me there.

Since about 1984 we have been in this "stagflation" period where inflation is rising but wages aren't. Once again, no argument from me here that the CEO is woth 400+ times than the janitor is garbage. Social capital not withstanding, no one NEEDS 10,000,000+ dollars a year.

For me the problem is that doubling the minimum wage will jack up inflation until we reach the same equilibrium we are in now. If people buy Starbucks at 3 dollars a cup while making 7.25 an hour, a sudden influx of dollars does not magically mean their savings rate or quality of life will go up (see "overheard at work" thread). Either way, Starbucks would just raise their prices by a dollar or two and, when lambasted by the public for this, they will blame the fact that they have to pay their workers DOUBLE (once again 15/hour seems really arbitrary) and will pass that cost on to the consumer.

No doubt that giving the high-MPC people more money will help our economy in the short-run. But after businesses recognize that their consumer base has literally twice as much money to spend, they WILL raise their prices. That's the issue. That will hurt everyone up the food chain. Arbitrarily deciding what a market or firm can support is a horrendous way to run an economy. Not to be that guy, but that's what happened in the USSR. Managing the economy arbitrarily becomes impossibly difficult really quickly.I'm not saying that that is what's happening, nor am I making a political statement - that is one of the largest reasons why the USSR economy crumbled, the Cold War be damned.

One more thing: Taxing the rich pisses the rich off - a lot. My dad curses the government for every 39% + state taxes that are taken out of his paycheck every two weeks. For me, it seems we need to spend less on some Government programs while reducing the tax load on EVERYBODY. I know that Keynesian economics states that the gov't is responsible for stimulating the economy in times of trouble, but what if there is no economic trouble because everyone has more tax-free dollars to increase their MPC?

Long rant, sorry.

[mathlete]

In reading through this thread, what bugs me about your posts is how you define and "outlier".  You pick a single feature, label it as "privilege" and call it a day.

I don't think I'm doing that. I'm really not trying to conflate outliers with privilege. I think that the people who succeed despite disadvantages are outliers.

I suppose yeah, if we look a little closer, they probably had other advantages that helped them out of the hole. I'll stop short of doing that in this post because if I do that too much, it'll sound like I'm denigrating hard work and conscientiousness which I don't want to do.

Worker harder or smarter is almost always good advice to give to everyone in any situation.

Now, bringing it full circle to mustachianism.  Maybe we should stop gauging success based on a the finish line.  Lets instead base success on the distance traveled.  Because when you step back and do that, does it really matter where you started?

I think developing your own personal metrics for success is an absolutely fantastic way to live life.

It is human nature for people to compare their own finish line to the finish lines of others though. You're right. Distance traveled is a much better metric. You need both the starting line and the finish line in order to compute that though.

The finish line is clearly visible and apparent. People get really uncomfortable with discussing the starting line though. They'd rather not acknowledge it. So we get a formula in which distance traveled = finish line. I think that creates bad policy.

[immocardo]

In reading through this thread, what bugs me about your posts is how you define and "outlier".  You pick a single feature, label it as "privilege" and call it a day.

I don't think I'm doing that. I'm really not trying to conflate outliers with privilege. I think that the people who succeed despite disadvantages are outliers.

I suppose yeah, if we look a little closer, they probably had other advantages that helped them out of the hole. I'll stop short of doing that in this post because if I do that too much, it'll sound like I'm denigrating hard work and conscientiousness which I don't want to do.

Worker harder or smarter is almost always good advice to give to everyone in any situation.

Now, bringing it full circle to mustachianism.  Maybe we should stop gauging success based on a the finish line.  Lets instead base success on the distance traveled.  Because when you step back and do that, does it really matter where you started?

I think developing your own personal metrics for success is an absolutely fantastic way to live life.

It is human nature for people to compare their own finish line to the finish lines of others though. You're right. Distance traveled is a much better metric. You need both the starting line and the finish line in order to compute that though.

The finish line is clearly visible and apparent. People get really uncomfortable with discussing the starting line though. They'd rather not acknowledge it. So we get a formula in which distance traveled = finish line. I think that creates bad policy.

Not going to do broken out quotes since it will get really messy really quickly.  As long as you're not labeling those "outliers" as having privilege just because of their success then I agree with your points.  Although a lot of people will do exactly that.  As soon as they see someone is successful they point to privilege, even for an individual who would not have been considered "privileged" when they were born.

"People get really uncomfortable with discussing the starting line though."

This is the most true statement in this entire thread.  I think this is one of the things that drives me insane, especially in the financial world.  The fact that there is a stigma against discussing ones' own circumstances takes away from the discussion immensely. 

Phrases like "You grew up poor" or "You grew up wealthy" tend to have the same reactions as "You're a miscreant" or "You are entitled" when they really shouldn't.  --Just generic examples, not specifically those choices

[gReed Smith]

I'll offer my own anecdote before I read the story and see if it matches:

Background: Well-educated parents.  Father made about $100k in his peak earning years; much less in some early years.  Mother was a SAHM.  I estimate their net worth at $1.5-2 million.  Of course, they drove an old van; we lived in a rural area and we ate at a restaurant maybe once every 6 weeks.  I didn't have a Nintendo or Sega or whatever, but we did get a computer when I was 7.  Modest vacations to the beach or road trips to interesting, educational places.

- Parents paid my college tuition and living expenses; graduated with no debt.
- I paid my law school tuition (after the scholarship) with loans; parents paid living expenses.  Graduated with $60k in loans.
- Married a pretty lady with another $60k in loans from her undergrad (definitely not even close to rich parents); she got a full scholarship for graduate school.

My household income has exceeded $200k in recent years.  I drive an 11 year old station wagon that I love and never want to replace. My wife's car is only 3 years old, and we paid about $22k for it.  I save around 25-30% of my income.  I own a nice house that I paid about $250k for.

Of course, my wife's background would be totally different (her uncle snuck groceries into the house to make sure the family had enough food), but her current financial situation is identical to mine.

I like to think my wife and I found success because we were raised with good values.  Also, we both got practical degrees that trained you for a specific job.

Edit after reading the article:  I certainly fit their profile of privileged.  In addition to the background I gave above, I have thrice received gifts of $10,000 from family members.  I inherited my car.  My wife benefitted from those gifts too because we were engaged or married at the time.  But, I'm not sure if my parents were rich.  I think they had good values that enabled them to help me (and my siblings who received identical gifts and had their undergrad paid for).  Have they spread a lot of money around?  Yes; they are entitled to because it's their money; they saved it.  Also, I guess my wife has "married a promising young man from a good family" privilege, and I have "married a smart lady who recognizes the value of hard work and savings" privilege.

[mathlete]

No doubt that giving the high-MPC people more money will help our economy in the short-run. But after businesses recognize that their consumer base has literally twice as much money to spend, they WILL raise their prices. That's the issue. That will hurt everyone up the food chain. Arbitrarily deciding what a market or firm can support is a horrendous way to run an economy.

I'm not saying this won't happen, but I will say that it is irrational (but we do irrational things all the time).

Prices are theoretically set by what the market is willing to pay. If a person makes $10 and they buy coffee for $1, then they must value coffee at $1.

If they make $20, they should still theoretically value coffee at $1, not 10% of their income.

If you'd like some hard numbers, I'd refer you back to the census table H-3 that I posted earlier. The section that contains real income by quintile.

Additionally, here is a historical table containing consumer price index figures: http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/Consumer_Price_Index/HistoricalCPI.aspx?reloaded=true

As we saw before, the bottom 40% have seen a decline in (real) income. The middle 20% is effectively flat. Taken together, the bottom 60% of household incomes have declined since 1990. The bottom 60% of households are as good of a definition as any for the "poor and middle class" and these people do most of the laboring and consuming.

So we can use both tables to draw the conclusion that a decline in real wages has happened in tandem with an increase in the consumer price index. Inflation exists and is at least somewhat independent of the wages being paid to the poor and middle class.

You can do some more first glance analytics by noticing that the CPI pretty much always goes up independent of years in which MW legislation is enacted or enforced.

[mathlete]

Phrases like "You grew up poor" or "You grew up wealthy" tend to have the same reactions as "You're a miscreant" or "You are entitled" when they really shouldn't.  --

I think this is a really good point. Stigmas like this prevent productive discussion IMO.

And even though I am on team "acknowledge privilege", I will say that it's probably not very helpful to point at someone's privilege as a means of putting them down or insulting them. Beyond being rude, it doesn't really make much sense.

People like to do this online a lot under the guise of anonymity but the fact that they have high speed internet access probably means that they too are oozing with privilege when compared to the rest of the world.

So in short, people pointing out privilege should be less offensive about it and people with privilege should be less defensive about it. It just is what it is.

[Hall11235]

For the record, I love this discussion.
To say that the value of coffee is 1 dollar a cup and will remain 1 dollar because of the market value is a valid point and well said. Let me try a different angle. Why should people be paid more if 7.25 an hour is what the market will support for a minimum wage job. I understand the moral side of it, trust me. I've worked min wage jobs and they blow.

Maybe we are just dancing around the same fire but singing different songs? I don't have any real solutions, but I suspect that arbitrarily doubling min wage won't help in the long run. I think we should spend less on our military, get out of these two wars for good among other things. That still doesn't solve the income problem for people who don't pay taxes because their income is so low.

Thought experiment:
What if we set a salary cap at say, 20 million a year in salary and the once you reach 500,000 a year, you must report income to IRS. CEO of citibank, making 100 million a year now has 80 million left over. He can reinvest in the business or pay his workers more, both of which would improve the economy. 
We could institute a progressive capital gains tax while lowering the overall tax burden.

Shoot me down on this... it seems too easy.

"Phrases like "You grew up poor" or "You grew up wealthy" tend to have the same reactions as "You're a miscreant" or "You are entitled" when they really shouldn't." Also, this is excellent.