Interested In Becoming A Lawyer?

[jamccain]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tucker-max/law-school_b_2713943.html

Have you ever wanted to go to law school or become a lawyer???  Read this!  I couldn't help but laugh as I was reading the article because I narrowly avoided that mistake and just shake my head at $150K of debt for people who HATE their jobs.  I feel sorry for a few of them...

I know a lot of lawyers are on this board due to their law school debt and people are always asking career advice here as well.

[Fite4Rite2Party]

OK, I'm going to do something I don't do very often and defend my profession. Not because I necessarily advocate law as a career path, but because in my humble opinion Tucker Max is an obnoxious douche (ironically similar to many lawyers I know) and so I feel compelled to tell the other side of the story.

I went to an expensive ivy league law school and I'm currently four years into a corporate law career.

• I've paid off all my law school debt (in fact I have zero debt).
• I have a net worth of about $350k (and would have much much more if I had embraced mustachianism sooner).
• If I do this for another 3 years, I estimate that I will have a net worth about $750, which is very close to my FI number.
• Work has given me the opportunity to fly all over the world
• I have a skill that I can always fall back on if I need money.
• If someone threatens to sue me, I'm not intimidated.

When you look at the big picture, I feel that my law school experiment has paid off. It has given me some awesome opportunities and experiences, and it has certainly put me on the fast track to FI. Although many don't last long in the profession, they're usually far ahead of the game when they leave.

[TrulyStashin]

For me, law school (class of 2011) was a mid-career shift and I have no regrets.  I was a high school teacher and had achieved every accolade possible in that profession -- from teaching AP classes to National Board Certification to a prestigious fellowship that paid for my MA in history.  Unless I moved into administration, I had nothing left to conquer.   After 12 years, I'd grown stale and bored which was unfair to the kids and to me.  Plus my salary was only $44k (in 2008, my last year) and my county/ state had frozen any pay increases (indeed, teacher in my county have not seen even a cost of living increase since 2008 while health insurance has gone up).

Two years out of law school, I wouldn't say that I'm happy with my job but I'm certainly not any less happy than I was with teaching.  Plus, I'm job hunting and am very excited about a strong possibility in education law.  That will be a big shift from the kind of law I do now (corporate law) which I've found mostly unfulfilling.  And that's one of the great things about a law degree -- it is incredibly versatile so if you're unhappy doing X you can almost certainly shift and do Y.

Financially, yes, I'm in law school loan debt.  The job I'm up for is public service, though the pay matches what I make doing corporate law, and my loans will be forgiven after 10 years.  Plus, I'd be a state employee which will add to the state pension that I already have 12 years in from teaching -- and alter the formula used to calculate my monthly pension payout because the state uses an average of the last three years of employment.  So, even if I take this job and stay for just three years, my pension payout will be based on a salary that is 130% of what I made as a teacher.   If I stay for 13 years, then I can take early retirement in my 50's and shift into many other possibilities:  private practice?  University president?  General Counsel?  Work for the UN or a human rights organization on international education issues?  The possibilities are endless.

Yes, you might argue, but you'll never retire early!   

I'd say, "you're right."  But I came of age in the Reagan-Greed-Is-Good era where Mustachian principles were unheard of.  I can't unwind the last 30 years and on the teacher track, I would never have retired early anyway.  So for me, the retirement issue is what it is.  Meanwhile, my law degree has opened up a world of possibilities and vastly increased my income with no real ceiling.

Oh, PLUS the stuff the other poster wrote about the outstanding ability to handle any bullpucky that life sends my way.

No regrets, despite the massive loan debt.

[hoodedfalcon]

So, Tucker Max is a tad bit of a douche, but I do think he makes some valid points. The jury is still out as to whether law school was a mistake. I did not go to an Ivy League, and becoming a corporate lawyer was never on my radar. I always wanted to work in public interest. Southern Dude's situation may be enviable from certain perspectives, it is not common in the legal world, nor would everyone with a law degree want that sort of set up.

There has been a decent amount of press, and various lawsuits, about the misrepresentation of employment statistics by law schools. For folks who graduated after 2008, the legal world is a completely different beast than it was when they entered law school. Luckily, I graduated in 2007. Luckily, I have had no problem finding employment, even unique and sought after employment, but not without sacrifice. I sacrifice pay. I sacrifice location. I will be in debt for a very very long time. Would I do it again? Maybe, but I would go to a state school next time around. Did my law degree open doors for me? You betcha. Do I bitch and complain about my student loans? Yes, I do. Do I realize now all I ever should have done with my life is live in a cabin in the woods and farm? Totally, but there is still time.

 

I couldn't help but laugh as I was reading the article because I narrowly avoided that mistake and just shake my head at $150K of debt for people who HATE their jobs.  I feel sorry for a few of them...

jamccain - Congratulations, I guess. But please, don't feel sorry for me.

[arebelspy]

I find it odd that so many of you have heard of "Tucker Max" - which sounds like a totally made up name, btw.  Never heard of the guy.

Thought the article was interesting though, but beware anyone writing with a bias (aka anyone writing).

Thanks for sharing.

Also TrulyStashin - impressive to hear you had National Board Certification - that's not easy, from what I understand.  What state did you teach in?  My state (NV) sounds similar - we've also had a pay freeze since 2008 (the year after I started teaching, and the year my wife started), so I've never had a pay increase, though health costs have gone up.  :P

[jat9449]

I read Tucker Max's first book and I had some good hearty laughs. Yes, he can be a big ol' sexist douche, but that's also what makes him comical.   

[arebelspy]

I've made a career that many people on this board would think sounds very good.

Likely, as I found many of his examples sounded interesting.

For example, one person he quoted said:

As I write this, it is 85 degrees, sunny, with a slight, cooling breeze coming from the West. The only reason I know this is that I took twenty minutes to run to get a sandwich to eat at my desk. I am sitting in a basement office which houses three of us, putting off research on state law fair debt collection vs. the Federal Fair Debt Collection Practices Act and the definition of a creditor to write this post. If that paragraph alone doesn't deter someone from law school, then I don't know what will.

...that actually sounded really interesting to me.

[anastrophe]

I've made a career that many people on this board would think sounds very good.

Likely, as I found many of his examples sounded interesting.

For example, one person he quoted said:

As I write this, it is 85 degrees, sunny, with a slight, cooling breeze coming from the West. The only reason I know this is that I took twenty minutes to run to get a sandwich to eat at my desk. I am sitting in a basement office which houses three of us, putting off research on state law fair debt collection vs. the Federal Fair Debt Collection Practices Act and the definition of a creditor to write this post. If that paragraph alone doesn't deter someone from law school, then I don't know what will.

...that actually sounded really interesting to me.

And to me. Actually, I think I would like it a great deal. If only I could get paid to research stuff like that without going into extreme debt.

[arebelspy]

And to me. Actually, I think I would like it a great deal. If only I could get paid to research stuff like that without going into extreme debt.

Yeah.  I'm so close to FIRE (3 years or so) that it doesn't make sense for me to go to law school for two years and then do multiple years of lawyering, financially.

But it is one thing I may pursue after a decade of retirement or so, if I decide I want to go back into the workforce in a new career (though I'd skip the debt part).

[totoro]

Law school was the best investment of time and money I ever made.

I work pt from home most of the time, social justice field, make six figures.  I like research and problem-solving.  I do pro bono fairly often for stuff I really like.

Hate dealing with bullying, nasty opposing counsel - but most times I don't have to as I don't often go to court.   I also dislike admin tasks. 

Other than that, its all pretty good.

Having a professional designation makes it easier to do what you want with your career.  I don't understand why lawyers complain when there are a lot of options, way more than in lots of other fields.

[Joet]

I think law is a great option for non-STEM grads, obviously some people must love the roles and good for them, I think most of the animosity comes from biglaw fear (legit, IMO)

:disclaimer
Finished 1l of a non-ivy top 100 (hardly elite), was thinking about IP or corp, returned to engineering with renewed vigor after firmly believing the grass was not greener at all, more like a spray-on rock garden with some astroturf

[TrulyStashin]

I taught in Virginia and honestly, I got my National Board Certification in 2006 because I was bored.  How many times can you teach the Federalist Papers, year in and year out, without getting sick of them?  Even Federalist 10, and it's a damn shame to get sick of such a beautifully crafted argument.  But I digress into lawyerly pedantics.......

Virginia allows anyone to "read the law" under another practicing lawyer and if you pass the bar you hold the same right to practice as a lawyer with a degree from the mighty Yoo-Vee-A.    When I was sworn in to the bar, there were several people who had "read the law" and also being sworn in.  No law school required.

Mind you, finding a job without a degree is another issue but in VA, at least, you can be a lawyer without the expensive three-year degree.

I'm mostly a transactional lawyer -- contracts and such -- but today was the culmination of a pro bono child support case that I started in January.  Va resident with two kids had been stiffed for CS by his ex-wife for years.  The order was from a court in Mississippi for her to pay a puny $20 a week and she was $4k in arrears.  No kidding.  I'd gotten the MS order recognized by VA courts and then filed motions to amend the CS and visitation and also filed a motion for judgment for the arrears.   I was hoping the judge would impute income to her (she's now remarried and a SAHM of 2 other kids) and I lost that argument (one of her kids is handicapped and not yet in school) but I won the judgment for $4k and we got a visitation schedule that is good for my client's kids and for him.  Overall, it was a very good day. 

I helped someone and that's one of the best things about my degree.

FWIW, Tucker who?   

[iwannaretire]

I've practiced law for 25 years.  I can say there is a lot of truth in the article for a lot of people.  There is a decade of my life that is just a blur because ALL I did was work.  Personally, I would never do it over again.   I know lots of other attorneys who feel the same way and it doesn't really matter what law school they attended, whether they had student loan debt or whether they worked in a top tier law firm.  Many have left for "alternative" legal jobs, but still do not like them (but get paid much less).

On the other hand, I know some attorneys who are very happy with the jobs.  They don't seem to mind working every weekend, being tethered to their cell phone on vacation, and barely seeing their children.  I don't mean that sarcastically, but that is the reality of their life.  For whatever reason, they get satisfaction out of what they do.  So, there are definitely people who should go to law school.

I think the point of article (I don't know this guy either) is to help people see the reality that they may face after leaving law school before making the decision to go to law school.  Many of us went to law school because we liked intellectual challenges and were not aware of any other career path that might provide the challenge.  As the article points out, the intellectual stimulation may not be there.  And, if it is there, the stimulation comes at a cost.  Sure, research sounds fun, right?  Well, does it sound like fun at 3:00 a.m.?  Does it sound like fun when you have a client-imposed budget that gives you less time than you can spend, but it's all your fault if you get the law wrong?  Do you like the consequences of losing a multi-million case because you didn't find the case on point because you got distracted from having to constantly answer the phone or tend to a whiny client ?  Do you enjoy the pressure of ALWAYS having to find the right answer and if you don't you'll be accused of gross negligence, lying, stupidity.  Do you wish you had the time to do the research, but instead you spend your time nagging a client daily to give you information you critically need or you'll get sanctioned by the court?  I think the point of the article is to make sure people understand that the profession is not so romantic or fun as it appears. 

Are there other legal jobs than working in a corporate law firm?  Of course, and I suspect some of them are more enjoyable.  From reading the comments to the article, people who are sole practitioners and therefore have control over their lives, tend to have more satisfaction.  But again, people going to law school need to ask themselves this question?  Am I the type of person who is going to have the nerve to hang out my own shingle?  Am I the type who can cultivate clients, so that I can break away from the corporate law firm life?  If not (and I'm one who would answer "no"), then the job satisfaction of those people is unlikely to apply to you.

Anyway, I'm sure EVERY occupation has its downsides.  I see nothing wrong with people writing articles about those downsides in order to give young people an opportunity to really understand the choices they make when they choose a career.  The advice to clerk in a law firm before going to law school is good advice and that advice is probably good advice no matter what career one chooses.

[totoro]

Okay, I read the article.  I agree that law school is definitely not for everyone.

You are right, I own my own practice and that is also not for everyone - although I did not always.  I'm also in Canada and not the US so maybe there are even more differences, but not too many to take away the relevance of what I am going to say.   

What I can say with some degree of certainty is that lawyers who work all the time doing things they hate are locking themselves in a box and there really are other options. 

Why do smart people do this?  I think because they have pressure to bill in six minute increments and feel dependent on their salaries and they are used to achieving through hard work and applied effort.  Heaven forbid you are seen as a "slacker", even if it kills you and means you don't spend time with your family.  Work can become an addiction.  A high level lifestyle can be hard to stop working to pay for too.

So, if you hate the pressure and the constant work what should you do?  Why I think you should get out a big ol' piece of white poster board and focus your efforts on what your ideal job would be.  Write it out.  It can include things like:

1. time to spend with my kids
2. work only half-time
3. enough income so I can retire early
4. no suits or only rarely
5. work from home at least half the time
6. travel to places I want for work so I can get double value for the paid travel - in my case it was to my hometown where my parents live
7. being in charge of my own schedule
9. making a difference
10. feeling happy about what I do

That was some of my list.  Someone else's might include other stuff like security in working for a company, job security, time to rock climb or sail, the ability to take a year off, achievement, paid vacations, medical benefits, reasonable working hours, meaningful work... whatever is really important to you.

Now comes the really important part: make a five-year plan.  This is easy for most lawyers once they give themselves permission to consider different options because they are good at planning and researching. 

That Biglaw job might be good, but it might be terrible, and not even make financial sense when you add up the hours and life energy required.  Certainly if you are unhappy this is a key indicator of things needing to change.

If you moved to an area with a lower cost of living and worked for a smaller firm would your quality of life go up a lot and your housing expenses go down? Would you actually come out ahead?  I know people who have done this successfully. Maybe you'll get asked to buy the practice or take over?  Maybe you can buy your own building? 

If you started working as in-house counsel for, say, a school board, would the pressure and hours drop and you might have time to buy and fix up a rental house on the side to compensate for lost income?  Most of the lawyers I worked with were not thinking about this option because they were too busy working.

If you love the law does it make sense to teach it?  Universities can be nice places to hang out for life for lots of people.  Good pensions here too.

If you think you can handle having your own practice then this can be a great opportunity to identify a niche market.  Start researching and maybe volunteer to assist at a firm that is doing what you want to do.  Yes, even if you are a lawyer you can volunteer.  The firm can bill out your time and it is win:win if you need more info before you start.

So, I think lawyers are doing what they are doing unhappily because they are not allowing themselves to see things from a different perspective. 

It is kind of like this blog, there are lots of people who keep buying more stuff to feel better and then have to work to pay it off.  It is the consumer norm.  Just like working a lot is the norm in a law firm.

Then there are people who stop buying and working too much because they realize it is not getting them more of what they want.

[Fite4Rite2Party]

Well said Totoro. It's amazing how many smart and amazing lawyers are just so risk-averse, or so strapped down by golden handcuffs, that they don't even consider all of the various options open to lawyers. The people I work with are intelligent, experienced, accomplished and have educational pedigree out the wazoo, which means they're likely highly mobile, and yet they complain about work all the time. As soon as I start talking about quitting the firm and getting weird with something totally new or entrepreneurial, the only reaction I get is, "yeah, that sounds awesome, but what about X, Y and Z and this that and the other thing? I don't want to ruin my career!" or "yeah, but then I wouldn't make the big bucks. The salary is just too good to quit."

[dragoncar]

Well said Totoro. It's amazing how many smart and amazing lawyers are just so risk-averse, or so strapped down by golden handcuffs, that they don't even consider all of the various options open to lawyers. The people I work with are intelligent, experienced, accomplished and have educational pedigree out the wazoo, which means they're likely highly mobile, and yet they complain about work all the time. As soon as I start talking about quitting the firm and getting weird with something totally new or entrepreneurial, the only reaction I get is, "yeah, that sounds awesome, but what about X, Y and Z and this that and the other thing? I don't want to ruin my career!" or "yeah, but then I wouldn't make the big bucks. The salary is just too good to quit."

Yeah, those crazy risk-averse lawyers.  You're going to quit before you hit your target SWR, right?

[Fite4Rite2Party]

Haha. Touche.

I'm going to quit on the earlier to occur of (i) hitting the SWR, or getting damn close, (ii) finding another interesting job, which I'm always looking for or (iii) just getting too damn tired of firm life.

In my defense, I actually tried to get out once already. I quit the firm after about 3.5 years and spent a year in business school and a year in-house. I only recently came back to the law firm because things weren't quite working out as I expected, and I figured it doesn't hurt to make some bank until I figure out the next step.

[myDogIsFI]

I'm an '09 law school grad.  Here's my two cents:

Tucker's advice is good for most of the people who are considering law school.  Many of them simply don't do the research.  They tend to think they'll be in the top 10% and that they'll be Denny Crane, no problem.  But law school can work fine for people who go mindfully and have a plan.

For the ER crowd, I'd guess it's mostly a bad idea.  If you have an engineering or accounting job and you're counting the years to FI, law school will probably set you way back.  I could see it making sense for somebody who's about to graduate with an undergraduate degree that gives them no job prospects and who could get into a law school that would basically guarantee them a big firm job.  You could work like crazy for a decade, avoid the golden handcuffs, then retire.

[Dee18]

Count me in as another happy lawyer.  I began as a federal prosecutor in a major city---I worked really long hours and loved every minute of it. It often was as fun as it seems in the movies! And never, ever boring.  When I was ready for a change in lifestyle, I became a professor.  Not as exciting, but incredibly flexible work hours, great vacations, opportunities to travel and a lot of freedom to work on issues I choose---plus the fun of teaching (which is great fun if you only have to be in the classroom about 8 hours per week during the semester...how do you high school and elementary teachers do it so many more?!)  At the outset of my career I was offered positions that paid 3 times what the government did.  I could have worked at one of those 7 years, saved my money and been FI.  I have former classmates who did that and they are happy too. 

When I graduated from law school, my mother said, "I never thought you would find a job paying you to do two of your favorite things:  reading and arguing."  That cracked me up because it was so true, although I'd add thinking hard and writing to the mix.  Law can be a great career...but like any career, you probably won't be happy if you choose it for the money.

[hybrid]

One of my best friends is a Happy Lawyer.  When he first started his law career he had to choose between the partner path or something else.  He chose transactional law and works for a title insurance firm.  He makes less than a lot of lawyers.  But he keeps a more-or-less normal schedule, which his peers don't.  He got to be a big part of raising his two sons, the first of which is off to college this year.  I've always admired my friend for taking the less-glamorous-still-makes-good-coin path, and I don't think he has regretted it for a single minute.

Not so coincidentally, I did the same in IT eight years ago.  I was promoted from worker bee to supervisor of worker bees and hated it.  Now I am one of two worker bees at a law firm, and I supervise just one person. Sooooooo much better for me.  I know folks who have moved up the IT corporate ladder who just don't enjoy their work at all. 

[Blindsquirrel]

 Well, I have no interest in being a lawyer and I suggest those who want to go to LS type "law school scam" into Google for an education. I thought my friends who were lawyers had it made with fat stacks of cash. It turned out not to be the case, I guess being a lawyer, like anything else, can be a pretty rotten job or a really good job.  I know that anecdotal tales matter little in the grand scheme of things but a guy I was good friends with from HS was a lawyer for 20 years or so and then took a massive (lethal) dose of pain killers leaving behind wife and kids etc. Why? I guess lack of cases, not sure. It seems to be a problem, not really sure but at the funeral I learned that evidently lawyers commit suicide at about 6-10x the rate of the general population. If I had to work 7.5 hrs a day 365 days a year as the author suggests, it would be on my list I think.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/06/03/lawyer-suicides-concern-colleagues/2383627/

[SnackDog]

Most attorneys I know love their jobs. I think the thing they like least about them is having to constantly deal with other jerk lawyers. 

[randymarsh]

It's "someday maybe" goal, but I've considered going to law school. I loved my business law class and arguing a position. I think that was one of the few classes I actually did all the reading in.

Hope one day I can go without incurring a massive debt burden.

[BZB]

The little bit I know (or think I know) about the law profession is from reading the blog Corporette (a fashion advice blog geared to female lawyers and other women needing to dress professionally for their careers). Many of the women who write in are doing internships at big law firms and seem quite angst ridden. There's a lot of pressure to wear status symbol clothing and accessories and to fit into a "high class" culture. They work crazy long hours and it seems to be family unfriendly. However, some of my PhD scientist buddies got jobs in patent law right out of grad school, and the company paid for their law school - not a bad way to do it if you don't mind the hours and extra schooling.

[Rebecca Stapler]

Like many careers, a legal career is what you make of it. If you go into it with eyes wide open and choose your adventure thoughtfully, you will probably wind up with a rewarding job.

The big wrench in the equation is the debt required to get that degree and the salaries for many of the more rewarding jobs. But going into law school with your mind on how much debt is sustainable will help you avoid limiting your options because of your debt burden. Although I picked a low-cost state school, tuition jumped 150% by the time I graduated. My debt burden practically zeroed out the legal jobs I wanted to pursue, but I fortunately found a niche that is both rewarding and affordable; and my school has a great loan repayment assistance program that makes public interest work possible.

[RobinAZ]

Now comes the really important part: make a five-year plan.  This is easy for most lawyers once they give themselves permission to consider different options because they are good at planning and researching. 

--- have time to buy and fix up a rental house on the side to compensate for lost income?  Most of the lawyers I worked with were not thinking about this option because they were too busy working.

---If you think you can handle having your own practice then this can be a great opportunity to identify a niche market.  Start researching and maybe volunteer to assist at a firm that is doing what you want to do.  Yes, even if you are a lawyer you can volunteer.  The firm can bill out your time and it is win:win if you need more info before you start.

This is great advice.  I have had some ideas about a niche market I would enjoy, and I am in a position where I could get some experience in the firm I am in now, as long as I am here (there are layoff talks, not 100% sure what will happen).  If I get laid off, I will never go to another firm.  I was a solo and loved it.  I only joined the firm because I am uninsurable in my state and needed coverage.  I have other options now, thanks to getting married  :-)  I could get clients doing what I do now, and grow the new practice area.  It's a little scary-- the new practice would involve a lot more litigation whereas I have been primarily transactional.  But I think it is a good service I could provide.

Anyway, thanks for prompting some thoughts!

[dragoncar]

What do you guys think about practicing uninsured?  I'm in CA and the bar does not require malpractice insurance.  I haven't run the numbers, but my impression is that the expense might outweigh the benefit (like earthquake insurance, although some here disagree on that topic).

[totoro]

In Canada it is mandatory.  It is pretty inexpensive here though.  I'd rather have it.

[lisahi]

What do you guys think about practicing uninsured?  I'm in CA and the bar does not require malpractice insurance.  I haven't run the numbers, but my impression is that the expense might outweigh the benefit (like earthquake insurance, although some here disagree on that topic).

I think it would depend on the types of clients you tend to deal with. If it's big corporations, they're unlikely to take the time to file a legal malpractice lawsuit against an attorney unless the screw up was so royally large that the payout is enough to justify the suit. That said, if your clients are big corporations, you would probably work for a large firm that has malpractice insurance, regardless.

However, if you tend to represent smaller claims and individuals, you're could wind up in a situation where a lawsuit against you by your client (in the event they lose their initial suit) becomes "worth it," even if it's only worth it on an emotional level. You may fancy yourself a great attorney, but even if you do everything right, you can lose--and frivolous malpractice lawsuits still cost money.

[elbhdb]

I agree with Southern Dude, although I am eight years out (spent 4.5 years in BIGLAW, the rest as in-house securities counsel).  I have used my $ to fund some real estate ventures, and we have a net worth in the neighborhood of $850k as well as a nice passive cash flow of $3k / month.  For the most part, it is 9-6, too and I get dinner and a couple hours with the fam, although I work every 3rd or 4th weekend.

I tell everyone I know entering BIGLAW that they need to save at least 50% of their check, irrespective of their plans.