Indecisive on buying a new car

[RelaxedGal]

My 2012 Nissan Leaf, at 7 years old and 70,000 miles will be a challenge this winter.  The battery is down to 68% of original capacity.  Originally the EPA rated the car at a 73 mile range, so 73 * .68= just 50 miles EPA now, and even less on cold days. My commute is 38 miles round trip.

I can get a new battery for $5500 and have a 73 mile range, and the car will need new tires in the spring for $450. 
I can get a newer used Nissan Leaf (2105) for $12,000 - $15,000 with less than that year's original EPA 84 mile range.
I can get a new 2018 Nissan Leaf with 150 mile range for $19K after rebates.
I can get a new Chevy Volt with a 53 mile range + gas backup for $19K after rebates.
I can get a Bolt with 238 mile EPA range for $25K
I can get a Prius C for $20K or a Yaris for $18K

The dealer trade-in value of my 2012 Nissan Leaf is $3,500.  Private party sale might be $5K but I know I wouldn't go that route.

I live in Massachusetts, where it can get down to the negative single digits F (-20's C) so cold is a concern.  It's currently raining money on us and we're nearly FI though we might not RE.  We are a two car household with his car for road trips, so I don't need to do anything more than get to work and back, reliably.  I love the smooth quiet of electric and can't see myself going back to internal combustion.

The 2018 Leaf sounds like a no-brainer, but I am too cheap, I can't bring myself to even test drive it. 

Opinions?  Other options?  Face punches? Someone talk me into buying this car!  September is supposed to be the best month  to buy a car and I don't want to let this pass me by.

[ixtap]

Can you charge the car at work, as well as home?

[RelaxedGal]

I can, but it's $2/hour.  My current car can put in 3.6 kWh in an hour, so that's nearly 4x the price of charging at home.  A newer car would suck more down in an hour making that a more reasonable price.  Also: I'm not allowed to just park in the EV charging  spot.  Last winter on cold days I'd set a reminder for 3pm, move my car to the charger, plug in, and then at 3:30 tell the car to pre-warm for the drive home.  It was kind of nice to come out to a warm car but a hassle to move it.  With a further diminished battery this winter I'd probably have to do do that on any day that's below freezing, instead of just the days that were well below freezing (20F) last winter.  That's what I mean by "a challenge" - more hassle, every morning having the debate of "Is this a day that I need to plug in, or can I get by?"

[Turkey Leg]

Here come the facpunches, but we have a Chevy Bolt. Absolutely love the car! Never loved a car before.

Just got solar panels, too. But we are already FIREd and have plenty of $$.

[GhostSaver]

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but we are hoping to get at least another year or two out of our 2012 Leaf and it's original battery.

The new Leaf and the Bolt are appealing replacements and with a little luck, they will represent nice values once they hit the used market. I'm looking forward to picking up a 2017-2018 Bolt in 2020 or 2021.

We are planning on going with a PHEV for our road trip car,  and the Volt looks appealing for that. But to me, some of the appeal of the EV is that it is mechanically simple and requires little maintenance. You give up a good chunk of that benefit with the PHEV.

But if you want me to play devil's advocate with myself: the market for replacement 1st-gen Leaf batteries is disappointing and isn't obviously going to get better. The tax incentives on the new Leaf and the Bolt aren't going to get better, and they may get worse, especially in between now and when the off-lease used Bolts and new Leafs appear, so the depreciation rate is unlikely to be as great as it was with the first-gen Leaf. For a new car, your out of pocket costs don't seem terrible, and it seems like you have the money to play with. If it's going to make you 20 grand worth of happy, it seems like you can afford a new one.

The most financially responsible decision is almost certainly to keep driving you 1st-gen Leaf into the ground, though. It's basically fully-depreciated, it's about as fuel-efficient as you can get, and it requires very little maintenance. Its a functional and practical car. Youve got the charger available at work for days when you need it.

[neo von retorch]

If I was "nearly FI" and could get a Bolt for $25k, and it didn't seem to affect my FI plans... I would definitely hop on that.

(In my case, I'd need to probably pay to upgrade my home from 100A service to 200A, and get a charger installed. Also, my spouse would probably get the car since we only have a 1 car garage -- we're that frugal ;) -- but then maybe if I was nearly FI, I would move from two cars to one... or maybe I'd live somewhere different by then. This is pretty much all irrelevant to OP. But I wanted to chime in that I think the Bolt is neat, and $25k is pretty good. Last time I tried to find one, they were like $40k+ before federal rebates.)

[RedmondStash]

My 2012 Nissan Leaf, at 7 years old and 70,000 miles will be a challenge this winter.  The battery is down to 68% of original capacity.  Originally the EPA rated the car at a 73 mile range, so 73 * .68= just 50 miles EPA now, and even less on cold days. My commute is 38 miles round trip.

I can get a new battery for $5500 and have a 73 mile range, and the car will need new tires in the spring for $450. 
I can get a newer used Nissan Leaf (2105) for $12,000 - $15,000 with less than that year's original EPA 84 mile range.
I can get a new 2018 Nissan Leaf with 150 mile range for $19K after rebates.
I can get a new Chevy Volt with a 53 mile range + gas backup for $19K after rebates.
I can get a Bolt with 238 mile EPA range for $25K
I can get a Prius C for $20K or a Yaris for $18K

The dealer trade-in value of my 2012 Nissan Leaf is $3,500.  Private party sale might be $5K but I know I wouldn't go that route.

I live in Massachusetts, where it can get down to the negative single digits F (-20's C) so cold is a concern.  It's currently raining money on us and we're nearly FI though we might not RE.  We are a two car household with his car for road trips, so I don't need to do anything more than get to work and back, reliably.  I love the smooth quiet of electric and can't see myself going back to internal combustion.

The 2018 Leaf sounds like a no-brainer, but I am too cheap, I can't bring myself to even test drive it. 

Opinions?  Other options?  Face punches? Someone talk me into buying this car!  September is supposed to be the best month  to buy a car and I don't want to let this pass me by.

You sure about that $5500 for the new battery? I thought the cost had gone up to $8000 a few months ago. You know, right after I bought my 10-bar 2013 Leaf.

You might want to confirm with a Nissan dealership. If you do, I'd be curious to hear about their response.

[Finallyunderstand]

Maybe I could help you justify the purchase just for fun!  :)

If you think you need to upgrade the battery you're already at $5500.  Then since you will keep the car you're going to get the new tires... $450.  Why not save that $6k plus turn in your old car for the trade in of $3500 plus the tax savings for the credit (not sure your tax rate or state so let's call it 7%) of $245.  Add those together and it's almost $10k.    So trade it in and get that credit knocked off the purchase price of a new vehicle, save the $6k you would have spent on the old one and apply to the new one.  You're half way there and no longer have range anxiety or whatever it's called. 

I can't imagine replacing a battery for $5500 will raise the value by that equal amount.

[RelaxedGal]

OK, Ok, I'll test drive the Bolt and Leaf this weekend. :-)

My car is still in "summer mode", meaning that I set the timer to charge to 80%.  It has been in the 40's F in the mornings here (~5-8C) and my low battery warning comes on if I do anything beyond my commute.  E.g. Monday I took my daughter to soccer practice, Friday I went to the grocery store.  Each are maybe 3 miles from home.  i hadn't realized the battery was THAT bad.  Charging to 100% would have avoided that, but charging to 100% gets me less range than you'd expect because I lose out on regeneration for the first few miles.

[Patrick584]

MMM is a philosophy, and I think it is important for responses to uphold that philosophy. I think the approach should be to find creative ways to not spend money rather than justifying large expenses. New cars no matter how green or subsidized are not frugal. A MMM tenet is not being embarrassed by the inconvenience of being frugal. The most frugal option for you is driving your current car without battery replacement. This is inconvenient because you have to scavenger hunt for charging. I’m sure you can find something, and the few minutes of hassle is worth the ~$15 per day cost of owning a new car. Be proud of your frugality.

[The Beacon]

From a pure financial point of view,  replacing the battery would deliver the most savings because

• Electric cars are simple and they can last much longer than an ICE.
• The money you save would compound in the market.

But the 2018 Leaf is really nice and Personal finance is personal. if your finance is already where you want it to be, go for it. 

[BobTheBuilder]

MMM is a philosophy, and I think it is important for responses to uphold that philosophy. I think the approach should be to find creative ways to not spend money rather than justifying large expenses. New cars no matter how green or subsidized are not frugal. A MMM tenet is not being embarrassed by the inconvenience of being frugal. The most frugal option for you is driving your current car without battery replacement. This is inconvenient because you have to scavenger hunt for charging. I’m sure you can find something, and the few minutes of hassle is worth the ~$15 per day cost of owning a new car. Be proud of your frugality.

Good one. I'd say, just test it out this winter. If you charge for one single hour at work, you get 7 miles extra and a slighlty pre-warmed battery. Even if you do this 100 times this winter, you are at only 200$ extra. Next summer it will still give you the same range as in winter with 1 hour of recharging. So now you have postponed a newer car for a year. 7% return on a 5500$ battery investment is 385$. 7% on a 19K car for one year is 1330$. As electrics and batteries come down in price over time, you might save even more. Pre-heat the car if possible, maybe with a hot water bottle inside :-)

Also, you might make more on selling your Leaf during summer, as winter worries are far away.

[pecunia]

Just wondering:  Do electric cars depreciate the way that "normal" gasoline engine cars do?  That is after you's had it a short time, it is worth thousands less. I've been told a used car is often a financially better value.

[Grog]

As far as I know leaf don't have an effective cooling /heating system for battery packs, while 2019 leaf will have one. If you live in cold places that is important. I would try to wait out until the 2019 leaf with climate controlled battery packs.

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[wageslave23]

I would replace the battery.  It really comes down to either replacing the battery and having $10k invested in almost new like car, or buying a brand new car for $19k and getting double the range.  I don't think double the range is worth $9k, especially with your driving situation.  But if you really want the new one and have the money, then go for it.

[RelaxedGal]

I test drove the Bolt.  My biggest dislike is the braking, it feels like it wants to roll the stop.  I mashed the brake at the last minute a few times.  Maybe something I can learn to live with, but my first impression was meh.  I also didn't like the angle of the head rests, the position of the steering wheel (might be telescoping but I didn't find that adjustment) and the lack of center back seat head rest.

Good one. I'd say, just test it out this winter. If you charge for one single hour at work, you get 7 miles extra and a slighlty pre-warmed battery. Even if you do this 100 times this winter, you are at only 200$ extra. Next summer it will still give you the same range as in winter with 1 hour of recharging. So now you have postponed a newer car for a year. 7% return on a 5500$ battery investment is 385$. 7% on a 19K car for one year is 1330$. As electrics and batteries come down in price over time, you might save even more. Pre-heat the car if possible, maybe with a hot water bottle inside :-)

Yeah, my current thought is just to deal with it this winter.  Last winter I only had to charge maybe 7 times.  I've switched over to "winter mode" and have the car charging to 100% now (autumn chill is in the air) and man, it's so much nicer to have a 60 mile estimate when I leave the driveway in the morning.  Say 30 times this winter, 10 of those for 2 hours, and that's 40x$2 = $80.  The biggest hassle of that is making the time to move the car from one parking lot to the other (and possibly back).  As a Mom I feel like I need to be able to leave at a moment's notice to pick my little one up from school so I might do it in the morning, but then I miss out on the sweet, sweet preheat as I'm heading out the door for the drive home.

I would replace the battery.  It really comes down to either replacing the battery and having $10k invested in almost new like car, or buying a brand new car for $19k and getting double the range.  I don't think double the range is worth $9k, especially with your driving situation.  But if you really want the new one and have the money, then go for it.

The electric options for more range as I see it:
No replacement, plug in at work and buy new tires: $550, 7 miles, good for 1 year
New Battery and tires: $6000-8500, 23 miles, good for 7 years (or less, depending on rust)
New-to-me 2015 Leaf: $14,000 - $3500 trade = $11,500, 30 miles, 10 years until I need a battery replacement
2019 Leaf $19,000 - $3,500 = $15,500, 100 mile improvement, 15 years
2019 Bolt $25,000 - $3,500 = $21,500, 188! more miles than my current car, also good for 15 years until rust does it in.

As far as I know leaf don't have an effective cooling /heating system for battery packs, while 2019 leaf will have one. If you live in cold places that is important. I would try to wait out until the 2019 leaf with climate controlled battery packs.

The 2012 and later Leaf has a battery heater for very cold days.  You are correct that it has no cooling, and that is a great thing that will come with the 2019, along with more range (I think a 60 kWh battery is rumored, so it will be in the 200 mile ballpark with the Tesla Model 3, Chevy Bolt, Hyundai Kona). 

Downside of waiting 'til 2019: Chevy and Tesla will have reduced Federal tax incentives, Nissan might begin phaseout.

I still plan to test drive the latest Leaf, but I'm 60% confident that I'll tough it out this winter and make my move next summer.

[undercover]

Simple: does 50 miles suffice? Worst case scenario, does 40-45 miles suffice? My hunch is that if so, an extra 23 miles isn't going to make a gigantic difference.

I wouldn't dump $5k into a very antiquated model, but I also wouldn't run out and buy a new electric vehicle either. As you can see, electric is getting better and better every year. They're really good now, but will be even better in five years.

[Retire-Canada]

MMM is a philosophy, and I think it is important for responses to uphold that philosophy. I think the approach should be to find creative ways to not spend money rather than justifying large expenses. New cars no matter how green or subsidized are not frugal.

MMM got a brand new EV just because. He didn't even need one.

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/10/04/so-i-bought-an-electric-car/

Hard to enforce your message when the guru doesn't listen to it. ;-)

[RelaxedGal]

Simple: does 50 miles suffice? Worst case scenario, does 40-45 miles suffice? My hunch is that if so, an extra 23 miles isn't going to make a gigantic difference.

I wouldn't dump $5k into a very antiquated model, but I also wouldn't run out and buy a new electric vehicle either. As you can see, electric is getting better and better every year. They're really good now, but will be even better in five years.

48 miles yesterday, most of that freeway at 60-65 mph.  White knuckled the last few miles because the Low Battery Warning chimed.  The 70 mile estimate at 100% charged when I turned on the car gave me a false sense of security.

Today I have 51 miles planned; I charged at home to 100% plus I plugged in as soon as I got to work and paid my $2 for 3.58 kWh of electricity.  Today will not be a repeat of yesterday. 

I still plan to test drive the latest Leaf, but I'm 60% confident that I'll tough it out this winter and make my move next summer.

I'm thinking that maybe I should have visited the Leaf dealer yesterday.

The new Drive Green incentives are in and look the same as last month.

[wild forest]

For me, I'd replace the battery and keep driving for another 70k miles or until it die.

Because the thought of spending $15k - $20k on a car and higher insurance coverage are a lot bigger than spending  6k on a new battery and set of new tires.

Say, if you traded in your car, how are you plan to pay off the rest that you still owe?  Financing?  That also will cost ya monthly interest.

[RelaxedGal]

The car has been paid off for a year, so there are no payoff worries.

The eternal question is: keep money in the market or finance, and that is being discussed elsewhere.

[Slow2FIRE]

Is Nissan still running the refurbished battery pack service?

I think that could cut the cost of a replacement battery pack down to $3000, but I'm not sure what guarantees they give you on range (and time to 80% capacity on the refurbished battery).  May be something to investigate.

[TheAnonOne]

IMO I would switch to a VOLT. The "V"olt, even GEN 1, has basically the range you do now + gas backup. It is an entirely electric car, like the others, but never a single thought goes to range-anxiety.

Plus the battery is actively managed and basically never goes bad (reports of Volt's with 400k miles and 0 battery degradation exist)

I really have no idea why the leaf sells given it's lack of battery management. It seems like such a basic feature for an electric car.

[RelaxedGal]

Is Nissan still running the refurbished battery pack service?

All the press I read said that was in Japan only.  I'm in the US.

IMO I would switch to a VOLT. The "V"olt, even GEN 1, has basically the range you do now + gas backup.

Gen 1 was a 38 mile range.  I considered it when buying my car in 2015 but it didn't quite cover my commute and two systems = twice as many problems in my mind at that time (I was having too many problems with my Scion xA).  Gen 2 came out shortly after and Yes, has about the same range as my 2012 Leaf.  Did they fix the problem where the engine comes on to keep you warm in the winter? With the Gen 1 I think it kicked on when the temp got below freezing.  My husband's Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV seems to do that.

[RelaxedGal]

That brings up the other option: take my husband's Mitsubishi Outlander for the winter.  My car has plenty of range for his 10 mile/day round trip commute.  His car has a 22 mile EPA electric range, in the winter it might be cheaper to drive home on gas (25 mpg) than the $2 to charge for an hour (add 12 miles) to my car.  Definitely more convenient.  And his car is AWD.

But I hate the leather seats, and the hugeness of an SUV, and whine, whine, whine.  I just like my little hatchback cloth seat car. :-D

We've talked over the car swapping option and he's OK with it, but he wants me to be happy.  He feels it's not worth putting money into the old car and that I should buy a new car in the next year.

[RelaxedGal]

Conclusion of the saga:  Just before Thanksgiving the 2012 Leaf was diagnosed with loose lower ball joints, and because it's all one part that means replace the lower control arms.  $1040 at the dealer, or $900ish at a smaller shop.  The weekend before this she lost her 9th bar (Leaf owners know what I mean) and the battery was at 66% of original capacity.

So my husband got his way, and I got a new car in the frenzy that is Black Friday Car Shopping.

My 2012 Nissan Leaf, at 7 years old and 70,000 miles will be a challenge this winter.  The battery is down to 68% of original capacity.  Originally the EPA rated the car at a 73 mile range, so 73 * .68= just 50 miles EPA now, and even less on cold days. My commute is 38 miles round trip.

I can get a new battery for $5500 and have a 73 mile range, and the car will need new tires in the spring for $450. 
I can get a newer used Nissan Leaf (2105) for $12,000 - $15,000 with less than that year's original EPA 84 mile range.
I can get a new 2018 Nissan Leaf with 150 mile range for $19K after rebates.
I can get a new Chevy Volt with a 53 mile range + gas backup for $19K after rebates.
I can get a Bolt with 238 mile EPA range for $25K
I can get a Prius C for $20K or a Yaris for $18K

The dealer trade-in value of my 2012 Nissan Leaf is $3,500.  Private party sale might be $5K but I know I wouldn't go that route.

I live in Massachusetts, where it can get down to the negative single digits F (-20's C) so cold is a concern.  It's currently raining money on us and we're nearly FI though we might not RE.  We are a two car household with his car for road trips, so I don't need to do anything more than get to work and back, reliably.  I love the smooth quiet of electric and can't see myself going back to internal combustion.

The 2018 Leaf sounds like a no-brainer, but I am too cheap, I can't bring myself to even test drive it. 

Opinions?  Other options?  Face punches? Someone talk me into buying this car!  September is supposed to be the best month  to buy a car and I don't want to let this pass me by.

I didn't get any of the deals above, so maybe September really was the time to buy before the 2019's came in.  I got a 2019 Leaf SV with the comfort package for $33Kish, $36,000 after taxes/fees/etc.  Minus $7,500 federal tax credit and $2,500 state rebate = $23K, way above the $19K I said above, but I think that was for the base trim level (S).  They also paid me $5,000 for my trade in (suckers!) leaving me with $28K after taxes/fees/down payment financed at 0% for 3 years.  I'm still not sure it's the best deal I could have gotten because the car buying process was nowhere near transparent, but it is a deal I can live with.  Driving this car makes me realize how much low level range anxiety I had, and now it is gone.

I did test drive the Volt, and was tempted because it would have been $1,500 cheaper (and less tax, and I would have gotten a $500 Costco card, and RED), but I had small complaints about it (arm rest, acceleration, no rear washer/wiper, concerns about maintenance of the dinosaur-fueled parts) and my husband steered me to the Leaf.