Author Topic: Income inequality in America  (Read 6235 times)

Ron Scott

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Income inequality in America
« on: October 31, 2023, 12:37:54 PM »
I’m not sure what to make of this phenomena.

We have made a good dent in poverty levels during the past 60 years or so, and spending on programs for the less fortunate has increased significantly. And advancements in tech and medicine have made lives easier. So, on average, life is better today than in mid-century.

At the federal level, some 40% of households pay no income tax. (There are many other taxes, I know, but still: federal is the big gorilla.) The top 10% of earners comprise less than 50% of all income reported but pay more than 70% of all federal income taxes—so it seems to me this group is at least paying a “fair share” of federal taxes. This has the net effect of transferring wealth to some extent as the federal government’s spend is massive and typically benefits all of us.

It appears to be difficult to pull back significantly from globalization and that hurts domestic workers who typically compete with international workers, especially the less educated. But only about 1/3rd of Americans get a college degree. This is critical since the college educated in American earn 55% more than the uneducated, and their new worth is about 4.5X greater. Education is one of the more telling indicators of income and net worth, more so than race or gender for example. I think STEM education is even more telling. Yet it’s still very difficult to generate political support for expanding open public education beyond HS.

Some political “class warriors” claim the solution to income inequality is to tax the rich more. I’m not convinced. How does this work? I can’t imagine we’d do it Robin Hood style and even if we tried, what could really be accomplished? I think the rich would have a little less wealth and the poor would gain very little. And Biden couldn’t make progress on his proposal to increase taxes on those making more than $400k when the Dems controlled both houses of congress…so what are the chances now?

We could work increase the wages of the lower earners and I support this. But we would expect the effects would include higher inflation, which hurts the poor more.

We could keep interest rates at historic levels (maybe 5%) to stop artificially propping up stock prices (the wealthy own the lion’s share of stock) but that hurts overall borrowing costs, including for housing and, again, the poor are hurt more.

I’m personally wondering IF we really have a big problem, and if so WHAT is the cure. I don’t have an answer.

Do you?




Dave1442397

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2023, 12:45:18 PM »
I only watched the first video in this series, but it was an interesting look at what caused the income gap to accelerate.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOLArO56vjuoeaIPzKQibBDbx2m_Rfsit

clarkfan1979

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2023, 01:05:44 PM »
I’m not sure what to make of this phenomena.

We have made a good dent in poverty levels during the past 60 years or so, and spending on programs for the less fortunate has increased significantly. And advancements in tech and medicine have made lives easier. So, on average, life is better today than in mid-century.

At the federal level, some 40% of households pay no income tax. (There are many other taxes, I know, but still: federal is the big gorilla.) The top 10% of earners comprise less than 50% of all income reported but pay more than 70% of all federal income taxes—so it seems to me this group is at least paying a “fair share” of federal taxes. This has the net effect of transferring wealth to some extent as the federal government’s spend is massive and typically benefits all of us.

It appears to be difficult to pull back significantly from globalization and that hurts domestic workers who typically compete with international workers, especially the less educated. But only about 1/3rd of Americans get a college degree. This is critical since the college educated in American earn 55% more than the uneducated, and their new worth is about 4.5X greater. Education is one of the more telling indicators of income and net worth, more so than race or gender for example. I think STEM education is even more telling. Yet it’s still very difficult to generate political support for expanding open public education beyond HS.

Some political “class warriors” claim the solution to income inequality is to tax the rich more. I’m not convinced. How does this work? I can’t imagine we’d do it Robin Hood style and even if we tried, what could really be accomplished? I think the rich would have a little less wealth and the poor would gain very little. And Biden couldn’t make progress on his proposal to increase taxes on those making more than $400k when the Dems controlled both houses of congress…so what are the chances now?

We could work increase the wages of the lower earners and I support this. But we would expect the effects would include higher inflation, which hurts the poor more.

We could keep interest rates at historic levels (maybe 5%) to stop artificially propping up stock prices (the wealthy own the lion’s share of stock) but that hurts overall borrowing costs, including for housing and, again, the poor are hurt more.

I’m personally wondering IF we really have a big problem, and if so WHAT is the cure. I don’t have an answer.

Do you?

In my personal opinion, net worth matters more than income. According to the Dave Ramsey data set, Millionaire Next Door dataset and the Money Guy Show data set, for households that are worth 1 million or more, about 90% of them have a 4-year degree. It's possible to be a millionaire with less than a 4-year degree. It's just very unlikely.

I think critical thinking skills in the social sciences can be very helpful for problem solving, employment and growing wealth. For people in STEM fields they might get a higher salary for early career. However, people in the social sciences are more likely to be managers during the second half of their career. Based on my personal opinion, I think people in the social sciences are more skilled on growing their wealth. 


GuitarStv

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2023, 01:07:35 PM »
When income inequality increases, research has found more health and social problems (obesity, mental illness, murders, early pregnancy, jail, drug use), and fewer social benefits (life expectancy, education, social cohesion, treatment of women, social mobility, and patents issued).
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0277953614008399

Income inequality in low levels is linked to better economic growth, but at high levels appears to cause worse economic growth.
https://dash.harvard.edu/handle/1/4551798


So it comes down to what you think is a big problem.

The US is still the most powerful economy on Earth.  Do you care that it's economically underperforming and not living up to it's full potential?  Do you believe that the social problems that come from income inequality are serious and worth concern?

erp

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2023, 01:16:32 PM »
I think there's a couple factors, but one that's really important is discussed at great length in the Meritocracy Trap (which is worth a read, even though it can be a bit of a slog).

People who talk about inequality might be talking about:
-the median income (which has improved dramatically over time)
-the bottom/very poor (the very poorest remain very poor, but as a percentage there are far fewer people who are very poor than there have been historically)
-the gap between the median and the poor (which has generally narrowed, because the number of people who are very poor has decreased)
-the gap between the very well off (say, the 90th percentile) and the extremely wealthy (say, the 99th or 99.9th percentile) - which has become much larger.
Crucially - this means that a bunch of different people all talking about inequality might be talking about vastly different things!

I think that the actual middle sees both that people who were much poorer than them have had their fortunes improve, while the very rich have become unthinkably wealthy -> so they often feel much poorer even if their wealth has improved over time. To say it another way, their wealth is growing more slowly than their poorer or richer neighbours.

It seems almost unthinkable that wealth taxes could solve this problem without a global decision to enforce them, and even then it'd be pretty complicated. Valuation of things is hard at the ultra-rich level.

I think it's a very dangerous game to say 'Federal taxes are the big gorilla', because the bottom 10% of households are paying a disproportionate proportion of their income as taxes, it's just not income tax. In terms of absolute dollars of course Federal taxes are the biggest, but framing a discussion around fair shares is difficult without quantifying relative value and total cost.

I'm inclined to think that higher interest rates (5-10%) are good for small savers and make stock prices more reasonable. Even more than fiscal policy though, I think this is a question of community and responsibility. Having more generally accepted philosophies which allow most people to feel like their lives are improving matters a lot, and the current iteration of heavily individual capitalism doesn't necessarily allow most people to feel like they're improving. It's a very, very hard question at scale, but locally it is as simple as "have friends, go out and form community, interact with the world and care about people". These aren't necessarily skills that we're super practiced at, but they're still super valuable.

I think that you're identifying a real problem, I'm just not sure it's a financial one. I'd be tempted to frame the question as "On average, there have been significant improvements in wealth/poverty reduction/quality of life metrics, but an enormous amount of people do not feel like they're living a better life than their parents or grandparents. Why not?"

Log

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2023, 01:20:06 PM »
There are two mechanisms by which more aggressively progressive tax rates can curb inequality.

1) You note the idea of using increased revenues to give more benefits/services to poor people. It's worth noting revenue and government spending are pretty decoupled at this point, but we may want to be a little more careful about the deficit as US bonds roll over into higher interest rates. Raising some taxes is probably a good call regardless of if we add any new benefits for the poor, and the marginal value of a dollar taxed out of a higher income is lower than out of a lower income.

2) More progressive tax rates disincentivize higher incomes. It's not that gross incomes stay the same and a bunch more money goes flowing to government—under higher progressive taxes, gross incomes drop. It's about actually using the disincentive of taxation to modify culture. Companies are less willing to throw more and more money at their high-value workers if a lot of that money is going straight out the door to taxes.

This soft ceiling on incomes cuts back on the ever-ravenous envy and "keeping up with Joneses" that swallows American culture, let alone the 21st century incarnation of "keeping up with the Kardashians" and vacuous Instagram influencers showing off lifestyles that are completely unattainable for the vast majority of people, let alone unsustainable for the planet.

Employees understand that negotiating for higher incomes yields heavily diminishing returns, and so as they enter the highest tax bracket, they feel they've pretty much "won" as far as income goes, and are more likely to negotiate for other benefits, like vacation time. The increased value of vacation time for high-earners fosters a culture that honors work-life balance, allowing high powered professionals to enjoy more time with friends and family, rather than working 60+ hours a week, 50+ weeks a year.

These higher tax rates for the top brackets, sustained over multiple generations, foster a culture where people have more modest expectations about what their life is going to look like, and meeting those modest expectations makes them generally more content and satisfied with life. Hence, all the "happiest countries in the world" are the Nordic countries with heavily progressive taxation, and therefore lower income inequality.

Higher taxes on the highest income bracket basically helps foster more of a culture of Mustachianism - it's a nation-wide acknowledgment that running the workaholic marathon on the hedonic treadmill is a waste of a human life.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2023, 01:36:52 PM »
People treat this, and our massive deficits, as some sort of novel problem requiring some sort of radical solution. But it's quite simple actually.

40+ years of tax cuts and loophole legislation have had their effects. Inequality is higher. Deficits are huge even in times of 4.9% GDP growth and full employment*. The national debt has ballooned to trillions. And now we have doubts about whether Social Security, Medicaid, or Medicare will still be around 20-30 years from now because the government might be broke by then.



The solution is staring us in the face: Go back to the tax policies of the 1960s. Back then the US was breaking even fighting the cold war, building the interstates, electrifying rural areas, building reservoirs, expanding access to education, and launching Medicare and Medicaid all at the same time. Oh yea, and GDP growth during that era was phenomenal.



Tax brackets in 1965 were:

Tax Bracket    Tax Rate
$0.00+            14%
$500.00+    15% ($4885 in 2023 dollars)
$1,000.00+    16%
$1,500.00+    17%
$2,000.00+    19%
$4,000.00+    22% ($39,084 in 2023 dollars)
$6,000.00+    25%
$8,000.00+    28%
$10,000.00+    32%
$12,000.00+    36% ($117,253 in 2023 dollars)
$14,000.00+    39%
$16,000.00+    42%
$18,000.00+    45%
$20,000.00+    48%
$22,000.00+    50% ($214,964 in 2023 dollars)
$26,000.00+    53%
$32,000.00+    55%
$38,000.00+    58%
$44,000.00+    60%
$50,000.00+    62%
$60,000.00+    64%
$70,000.00+    66%
$80,000.00+    68%
$90,000.00+    69%
$100,000.00+    70%  ($977,107 in 2023 dollars)

Now the lowest rate is 10% (all those "middle class tax cuts you've been hearing about) and the highest rate is 37%.

Does anyone doubt these tax brackets, alongside a clean-out of exemptions, credits, and other loopholes, would swing the US back to surplus and start the process of paying off our national debt? It would also help prevent the rise of a oligarchy that could take over the US government or use media/social media to control public opinion.

*Remember how the Laffer Curve proposed a breakeven level, where if taxes got low enough growth would be so high the government would collect massive surpluses in taxes? Hahahaha! Is it fair to say the Laffer Curve has been debunked if today's red hot economy is generating massive deficits?
« Last Edit: October 31, 2023, 02:00:16 PM by ChpBstrd »

Scandium

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2023, 01:38:59 PM »
Education is one of the more telling indicators of income and net worth, more so than race or gender for example. I think STEM education is even more telling. Yet it’s still very difficult to generate political support for expanding open public education beyond HS.

Some political “class warriors” claim the solution to income inequality is to tax the rich more. I’m not convinced. How does this work? I can’t imagine we’d do it Robin Hood style and even if we tried, what could really be accomplished? I think the rich would have a little less wealth and the poor would gain very little.

You just answered your own question, two sentences apart. It's not just "tax rich more > poor people better off". The point would be to use that (new) government money to benefit poorer people more (rather than now, where government money is often used to benefit rich people).
So yes, paid family leave, childcare, higher education, public healthcare; all things that would materially improve the lives of those less well off. Rich people naturally don't give a shit about this, since they can easily pay for it themselves. So to them it's not a "benefit". These things, as you say, are also associated with long-term improvements to people's finances; childcare allowing them to work, pre-k leading to better achievement for the child (especially poorer ones), higher ed = better jobs. etc etc. In many/most cases the ROI for the government is much greater than 1:1 due to increased tax base, so anyone who claims to care about "government finances" should be in favor! But of course we know that is all bs.

Laura33

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2023, 02:03:29 PM »
Singling out federal income taxes as the big gorilla is a red herring (to mix metaphorical species).  You also need to consider:

SS taxes (IIRC, 13+%, with a cap not to far above $100K)
State income taxes
State sales taxes, personal property taxes, and fees (e.g., car registration -- states without income taxes tend to have higher sales taxes, fees, or other taxes to cover the budget).* 

It's hard to be precise, since each state does sales taxes and fees and such differently, but in general those sorts of things have a much larger effect on the poor than on the rich, because (a) sales taxes/fees are a much higher proportion of low incomes than high ones, and (b) they apply to basically every dollar spent, and poor people tend to spend all their dollars, while wealthier people have dollars leftover to save/invest.  Which means that while the top 10% of earners pay 70% of federal income tax, they pay a far lower share of these other taxes, so the overall system is not nearly as progressive as that one figure suggests.  If you want to assess how progressive or regressive our tax code is, you need to look at the overall load people pay at various income levels, not just separate out the most progressive part of the overall tax code because it supports the point you want to make. 

IMO, if you want to do a "fair" comparison of tax burdens, you'd need to start with figuring out what a basic COL is in a particular area -- not luxury, but a basic standard that includes sufficient food, shelter, clothes, medical care, etc.  Say for a family of 4 in a particular area, that is $50,000.  Then look at how much income people have above that level, and compare the taxes they pay on those amounts.  In this system, any penny of taxes paid by people who make less than $50K is highly regressive, because it means they are paying taxes when they can't even afford the necessities.  So all those sales taxes, FICA taxes, etc., are extremely regressive, and a "fair" tax system would provide those people credits and refunds to ensure they can afford those necessities. 

Then that $50K becomes the baseline for comparing taxation levels above that figure.  If someone makes $60K, with an effective tax rate of 5% (e.g., $3K in taxes), that's actually a 30% "real" tax rate on the "extra" $10K they make over and above the bare minimum they need to pay their needs. 


*I am ignoring property taxes, because even though property owners pay the taxes directly, those costs are passed on as part of the rent, so ultimately the poor (who tend to rent vs. buy) end up paying those, too.  So you could make an argument that even property taxes have a greater impact on the poor, since they go directly toward affordability of rentals in an area, and $2K or $5K or whatever is a much larger portion of a poor person's income than a wealthy person's.   

Cranky

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2023, 07:22:08 PM »
I am a big, big fan of returning public universities to their original public school status and charging no tuition to in state students who get preferential admission.

However, if 100% of the population gets a college degree, I suspect that the income advantage will fall away. Education is largely a sorting tool in many fields (and I don’t rule out STEM.) The sale arguments were made for high school degrees, not so long ago.

MDM

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2023, 08:26:05 PM »
Is it fair to say the Laffer Curve has been debunked if today's red hot economy is generating massive deficits?
No, because deficit = spending - revenue.

The Laffer Curve looks only at revenue vs. tax rate. 

If the government could know and implement that magical optimum tax rate (or even the optimum overall tax policy) and collect the resulting maximum tax, if spending is greater then there will still be deficits.

ender

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2023, 09:47:06 PM »
Some years ago I made this chart.

It shows effective federal tax rates, for various incomes (using 2020 dollars), using the tax codes of those years.

This is for single tax payers.

Effective taxes on those that make $1M+ income are significantly lower now than they were in the "60 years ago" you reference.

This doesn't include capital gains rates also being significantly lower, too.







Paper Chaser

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2023, 04:15:08 AM »
It's not only that the wealthiest individuals have seen their tax burdens reduced, the same has been true for corporations as well:


And since corporations pay Corporate Income Tax, but pass through entities do not, we've seen a rise in pass throughs:


The percentage of Federal Tax Revenue that comes form income taxes has remained fairly stable since WWII, while the percentage of Corporate Income Tax has fallen, and Payroll tax has risen almost equally. Since payroll tax is split between the employer and the employee, this effectively represents a decrease in corporate taxes and an increase in personal income tax.

https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-money-does-the-government-collect-per-person/

All of that contributes to higher inequality than we've seen in many decades:

Ron Scott

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2023, 04:25:21 AM »
Higher taxes on the highest income bracket basically helps foster more of a culture of Mustachianism - it's a nation-wide acknowledgment that running the workaholic marathon on the hedonic treadmill is a waste of a human life.

An interesting thought experiment:

Imagine the future of American society and our place in the world if anyone working long hours was culturally cancelled and the typical retirement age was 40.


blue_green_sparks

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2023, 06:16:08 AM »
A wealth-based federal tax would certainly put an end to much of the income-based avoidance shenanigans that goes on. Shhh...I am officially against such a method.

Some of these billionaires draw zero income or less and just live off from huge low interest loans.

Metalcat

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2023, 06:43:22 AM »
Higher taxes on the highest income bracket basically helps foster more of a culture of Mustachianism - it's a nation-wide acknowledgment that running the workaholic marathon on the hedonic treadmill is a waste of a human life.

An interesting thought experiment:

Imagine the future of American society and our place in the world if anyone working long hours was culturally cancelled and the typical retirement age was 40.

Or you could just look at countries that have wealth taxes.

FTR, after years of working with high income/high NW clients, they do the same things Americans do, they structure their estates to take advantage of as many tax rules as possible to minimize their tax burden, with extremely few of them ever getting taxed in the highest wealth-tax bracket.

I'm fact, when Canada introduced the new higher wealth-tax bracket, the only clients I saw being taxed that high were the high-earning/negative NW medical professionals who were not sheltering their income in corporate tax protections because they were aggressively paying off debt, which had to be done with after-tax dollars.

The bigger concern is corporate taxes because companies will move to more corporate-tax friendly locations if the tax rate is too high. This is why Canada, which on-paper has a wealth tax, happens to keep its corporate tax rate in line with the US because we can't afford to be losing companies to the US.

When our government tried to overhaul the corporate tax laws, they accidentally made it punitive specifically for medical professionals and farmers who aren't wealthy, essentially punishing the middle class despite their mandate being to strengthen the middle class. And they had to walk back close to 90% of the policy.

A "wealth tax" is essentially useless if it isn't a corporate tax, because corporations are where wealthy people keep their wealth and use arcane tax laws to dole out taxable wealth in small enough increments not to be hit with too much income tax.

But the moment you raise corporate tax, you are also targeting the middle class business owners, and there are often consequences to the workers of larger companies as they try to defray the impact of higher taxes.

So really, it's just difficult from a policy standpoint to actually identify and target the wealthy with an effective wealth tax. It's shockingly difficult to even determine who is wealthy and who isn't, what makes up that wealth, and how to tax it effectively.

Also, it's not like the US has a lack of social programs because it doesn't have enough money. It has a lack of social programs because people don't vote for politicians who propose social programs.

The voting public needs to want social programs in order for social programs to exist. Countries with less inequality are countries where the public actively wants less inequality.

As long as neoliberal, bootstrapping ideology dominates, there won't be a public will for policies that reduce inequality because neoliberalism is all about promoting inequality. That's kind of the entire point, really.

However, as people are recognizing that the system actually prevents social mobility, the public sentiment is changing. Wait, let me rephrase that, as *working and middle class white people* are recognizing the systemic factors that prevent social mobility, their sentiment is changing.

It will be interesting to see how the next generation of voters feels about neoliberalism and policies that could reduce inequality and promote actual social mobility. Millenials became quite cynical, and Gen Z are rapidly rejecting the neoliberal hegemony (or at least very actively rejecting the corporate version of it), plus the increased cultural diversity could all have substantial impacts as to what policies are popular with younger voters moving forward, especially as boomers die off.

Even though the pissed off white working class rage has been capitalized upon for alt-right ideology, it's still essentially people pissed off about the failures of the "American Dream."

And while politicians scramble to mobilize that rage against immigrants, "wokeness," or whatever else is politically convenient for those in power stoking and directing that rage. They are also being targeted against the "elites" AKA the very products of neoliberalism.

This creates fertile ground for a population being amenable to radically socialist proposals, y'know, like eliminating student debt.

As long as someone figures out how to frame social policy as "fuck the elites," then there's huge potential for capitalizing upon that existing/growing discontent.

An angry working/middle class with limited social mobility, who loses faith in the governance of the "elites" is exactly how socialism thrives. So paradoxically, the very folks raging against Lefty extremists are the ones primed to potentially usher in socialist change.

...just don't call it socialism...
« Last Edit: November 01, 2023, 06:52:25 AM by Metalcat »

Metalcat

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2023, 06:48:29 AM »
A wealth-based federal tax would certainly put an end to much of the income-based avoidance shenanigans that goes on. Shhh...I am officially against such a method.

Some of these billionaires draw zero income or less and just live off from huge low interest loans.

That's the thing, it's actually really complicated to figure out who is wealthy and how to tax them. A lot of very wealthy people have very little actual personal wealth and are indebted up to their eyeballs, because that's how one becomes incredibly wealthy.

But from a tax policy perspectives be, how do you actually quantify who is wealthy without having an accountant go through and figure out which person actually owns what shares of what entity, and how it's leveraged, how money is moving between different corporate entities, etc, etc.

It's just really hard for a national system to efficiently identify rich people.

blue_green_sparks

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2023, 07:50:29 AM »
A wealth-based federal tax would certainly put an end to much of the income-based avoidance shenanigans that goes on. Shhh...I am officially against such a method.

Some of these billionaires draw zero income or less and just live off from huge low interest loans.

That's the thing, it's actually really complicated to figure out who is wealthy and how to tax them. A lot of very wealthy people have very little actual personal wealth and are indebted up to their eyeballs, because that's how one becomes incredibly wealthy.

But from a tax policy perspectives be, how do you actually quantify who is wealthy without having an accountant go through and figure out which person actually owns what shares of what entity, and how it's leveraged, how money is moving between different corporate entities, etc, etc.

It's just really hard for a national system to efficiently identify rich people.
Yeah, you are right. It would end up being a bunch of balance sheet shenanigans instead of income statement shenanigans. 

ChpBstrd

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2023, 07:52:02 AM »
Is it fair to say the Laffer Curve has been debunked if today's red hot economy is generating massive deficits?
No, because deficit = spending - revenue.

The Laffer Curve looks only at revenue vs. tax rate. 

If the government could know and implement that magical optimum tax rate (or even the optimum overall tax policy) and collect the resulting maximum tax, if spending is greater then there will still be deficits.
Arthur Laffer's point in the early 70s was tax rates were too high, and his prediction was revenues would increase (deficits would decrease) if rates were lowered and government spending stayed about the same. So the US government experimented with lower and lower tax rates from the 1980s until today.

Meanwhile, government outlays as a percentage of GDP dropped from 22.3% in 1982 to 20.66% in 2019. This was the timeframe when the U.S's national debt ballooned out of control. So yes, the government was spending more in nominal terms, but as a percentage of GDP it was structurally spending equal or less than in the Reagan years, except for blips around the GFC and COVID emergencies. Expenditures as a percentage of GDP is the preferred measure because taxes go up and down with GDP too. We wouldn't want to compare a nominal number to a rate, as I often see in the discourse.


So I think Laffer's theory has had the perfect test, decades of falling tax rates with the tailwind of falling government outlays as a % of GDP. And yet the exact opposite of his prediction came true and the US has $33.7T national debt and 138% debt-to-GDP ratio. Of course, Laffer might say we should keep lowering taxes and then the magic point will be found, but it is unclear whether the US could go much further without setting off a debt crisis or risking a sudden devaluation of the dollar. 

It's been debunked. Thoroughly and disastrously.

erp

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2023, 08:29:53 AM »

...
The bigger concern is corporate taxes because companies will move to more corporate-tax friendly locations if the tax rate is too high. This is why Canada, which on-paper has a wealth tax, happens to keep its corporate tax rate in line with the US because we can't afford to be losing companies to the US.
...

Wait - does Canada have any sort of wealth tax other than property taxes?

I know that they've been proposed from time to time, but I didn't think one had ever actually been enacted.

GuitarStv

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2023, 08:46:28 AM »

...
The bigger concern is corporate taxes because companies will move to more corporate-tax friendly locations if the tax rate is too high. This is why Canada, which on-paper has a wealth tax, happens to keep its corporate tax rate in line with the US because we can't afford to be losing companies to the US.
...

Wait - does Canada have any sort of wealth tax other than property taxes?

I know that they've been proposed from time to time, but I didn't think one had ever actually been enacted.

Nope.  Although it's a massively popular idea . . . 89% support across the country (and even 83% support amongst conservatives).

erp

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2023, 10:21:40 AM »

...
The bigger concern is corporate taxes because companies will move to more corporate-tax friendly locations if the tax rate is too high. This is why Canada, which on-paper has a wealth tax, happens to keep its corporate tax rate in line with the US because we can't afford to be losing companies to the US.
...

Wait - does Canada have any sort of wealth tax other than property taxes?

I know that they've been proposed from time to time, but I didn't think one had ever actually been enacted.

Nope.  Although it's a massively popular idea . . . 89% support across the country (and even 83% support amongst conservatives).

Sure, but popular doesn't mean it's a good idea. The mechanics of a wealth tax are incredibly difficult to get right, mostly you'd just end up reshaping some random market (rich people would end up buying book royalty streams or fine art or appartment buildings or some other thing where the valuation is difficult). I think there's a good argument for higher taxes, but the popularity of tax increases is really a public sentiment that "other people should pay more taxes, but also we shouldn't fund the CRA/IRS any more".

There is a real problem, and a deep crisis ... but I don't think wealth taxes are an especially effective path out of it, they're just the left wing equivalent of "we'll stop woke corporations and drill more wells" (ie. an easy to understand, incorrect policy that doesn't have the technical nuance to solve any of the problems that actually make people worse off).

seattlecyclone

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2023, 10:43:54 AM »
Is it fair to say the Laffer Curve has been debunked if today's red hot economy is generating massive deficits?
No, because deficit = spending - revenue.

The Laffer Curve looks only at revenue vs. tax rate. 

If the government could know and implement that magical optimum tax rate (or even the optimum overall tax policy) and collect the resulting maximum tax, if spending is greater then there will still be deficits.
Arthur Laffer's point in the early 70s was tax rates were too high, and his prediction was revenues would increase (deficits would decrease) if rates were lowered and government spending stayed about the same. So the US government experimented with lower and lower tax rates from the 1980s until today.

Right. I think the concept of the Laffer Curve is sound: that there likely exists a tax rate so high that it deters so much of the activity being taxed that the government would collect more revenue if it lowered the tax rate. What we've seen is that the US income tax rates mid-century were not past that point.

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2023, 10:50:03 AM »
It's not only that the wealthiest individuals have seen their tax burdens reduced, the same has been true for corporations

I often wonder about the ultimate value in taxing corporations.

It seems such taxes can negatively affect three groups of people: consumers, who pay increased prices, since taxes are another cost of production—in this case, comparable to a regressive tax; employees who can’t earn more, since the money available to pay them may be used to pay taxes; and shareholders like us who are investing in the corporation’s stock for the future but receive lower returns because taxes act as a drag on earnings. Corporate taxes can be just another sneaky way to stick it to Average Joe and allow politicians to claim; I didn’t vote to increase taxes for you…just them.

We also need to keep in mind the affects taxes can have on the ability of businesses to invest in the future and compete internationally. These are important issues and taxes have consequences. (LOL it is funny watching the Biden administration running around the world imploring other countries to maintain a comparable corporate tax to America’s. If a corporation approached other corporations to maintain similar pricing in the marketplace it’d be a felony!)

I do think there’s a role for corporate taxes, just don’t be fooled to think it’s free money or a we-they win. You still pay.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2023, 10:57:56 AM »
There is a real problem, and a deep crisis ... but I don't think wealth taxes are an especially effective path out of it, they're just the left wing equivalent of "we'll stop woke corporations and drill more wells" (ie. an easy to understand, incorrect policy that doesn't have the technical nuance to solve any of the problems that actually make people worse off).

How to say you are in Alberta without saying you are in Alberta!    ;-)

Metalcat

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2023, 11:01:18 AM »

...
The bigger concern is corporate taxes because companies will move to more corporate-tax friendly locations if the tax rate is too high. This is why Canada, which on-paper has a wealth tax, happens to keep its corporate tax rate in line with the US because we can't afford to be losing companies to the US.
...

Wait - does Canada have any sort of wealth tax other than property taxes?

I know that they've been proposed from time to time, but I didn't think one had ever actually been enacted.

No, sorry, I totally misspoke, on paper we tax the wealthy, as in we implemented a new high-income tax bracket, but it doesn't tax wealth, it just taxes high income people who can't effectively shield their income from taxes, such as professionals who earn a lot on paper, but also have to pay off a lot of student debt, so folks who are functionally low income because they work for the bank.

Once those folks are incorporated business owners, they can easily on-paper pay themselves only 5 figures and look to the tax system like moderate income earners.

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2023, 11:36:43 AM »
Is it fair to say the Laffer Curve has been debunked if today's red hot economy is generating massive deficits?
No, because deficit = spending - revenue.

The Laffer Curve looks only at revenue vs. tax rate. 

If the government could know and implement that magical optimum tax rate (or even the optimum overall tax policy) and collect the resulting maximum tax, if spending is greater then there will still be deficits.
Arthur Laffer's point in the early 70s was tax rates were too high, and his prediction was revenues would increase (deficits would decrease) if rates were lowered and government spending stayed about the same. So the US government experimented with lower and lower tax rates from the 1980s until today.

Right. I think the concept of the Laffer Curve is sound: that there likely exists a tax rate so high that it deters so much of the activity being taxed that the government would collect more revenue if it lowered the tax rate. What we've seen is that the US income tax rates mid-century were not past that point.
A chart of federal revenue (not spending, not deficits) would then be a starting point if we wanted to search for that optimum.  The practical barriers to using some version of a Binary search algorithm on tax rates are probably insurmountable, so the speculation can continue unabated....

seattlecyclone

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2023, 11:39:49 AM »
It's not only that the wealthiest individuals have seen their tax burdens reduced, the same has been true for corporations

I often wonder about the ultimate value in taxing corporations.

Agreed. Taxing shareholders is the way to go. Any corporate income ultimately belongs to the shareholders. It's more progressive to tax that income based on how much income the shareholder actually receives, rather than assigning a flat rate to the corporation so that the CEO's share of the earnings is taxed at the same rate as that of the granny who owns ten shares and is living off dividends.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2023, 11:48:55 AM »
Is it fair to say the Laffer Curve has been debunked if today's red hot economy is generating massive deficits?
No, because deficit = spending - revenue.

The Laffer Curve looks only at revenue vs. tax rate. 

If the government could know and implement that magical optimum tax rate (or even the optimum overall tax policy) and collect the resulting maximum tax, if spending is greater then there will still be deficits.
Arthur Laffer's point in the early 70s was tax rates were too high, and his prediction was revenues would increase (deficits would decrease) if rates were lowered and government spending stayed about the same. So the US government experimented with lower and lower tax rates from the 1980s until today.

Right. I think the concept of the Laffer Curve is sound: that there likely exists a tax rate so high that it deters so much of the activity being taxed that the government would collect more revenue if it lowered the tax rate. What we've seen is that the US income tax rates mid-century were not past that point.
A chart of federal revenue (not spending, not deficits) would then be a starting point if we wanted to search for that optimum.  The practical barriers to using some version of a Binary search algorithm on tax rates are probably insurmountable, so the speculation can continue unabated....
Nominal tax revenues, at any set of rates, go up and down with the economy. That's why I'm looking at % of GDP over time. If Laffer was correct, lower rates would have at some point found the spot where government revenue growth would outrun GDP growth. I.e. growth would accelerate and we'd also have government surpluses. We almost saw that in the late 90's but the growth was an anomaly and didn't last. Most of the past 4 decades have been spent at much lower levels of GDP growth than occurred in the high-tax eras of the 1950s, 60s, and 70s when government was closer to breaking even.

Laura33

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2023, 12:06:13 PM »
Is it fair to say the Laffer Curve has been debunked if today's red hot economy is generating massive deficits?
No, because deficit = spending - revenue.

The Laffer Curve looks only at revenue vs. tax rate. 

If the government could know and implement that magical optimum tax rate (or even the optimum overall tax policy) and collect the resulting maximum tax, if spending is greater then there will still be deficits.
Arthur Laffer's point in the early 70s was tax rates were too high, and his prediction was revenues would increase (deficits would decrease) if rates were lowered and government spending stayed about the same. So the US government experimented with lower and lower tax rates from the 1980s until today.

Right. I think the concept of the Laffer Curve is sound: that there likely exists a tax rate so high that it deters so much of the activity being taxed that the government would collect more revenue if it lowered the tax rate. What we've seen is that the US income tax rates mid-century were not past that point.

Right.  What we have is a logical fallacy in action:  just doing A has a specific effect doesn't mean that doing not-A will have the opposite effect -- or, following along, that if we maximize not-A, we will maximize the opposite result.

We have a perfectly reasonable analysis that says that when marginal tax rates are 70%, that deters economic growth, and lower tax rates would stimulate growth.  That somehow morphed into "any tax rate is bad, so the more we can reduce taxes, the more economic benefit there will be, and the government will still bring in more money, and we can all go out for our free lunch."

IOW, a nuanced concept was turned into a political ideology.  Any tax increase above where we are now is "bad," and any tax decrease is "good."  No one is even bothering to try to find any kind of optimal tax rate.

It's kind of like with drugs:  the difference between a cure and death is in the dose.  But we're too busy espousing the miracle cure of lower taxes to spend even a second evaluating what the dose should actually be.

Log

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2023, 12:21:06 PM »
Higher taxes on the highest income bracket basically helps foster more of a culture of Mustachianism - it's a nation-wide acknowledgment that running the workaholic marathon on the hedonic treadmill is a waste of a human life.

An interesting thought experiment:

Imagine the future of American society and our place in the world if anyone working long hours was culturally cancelled and the typical retirement age was 40.

It's worth noting a lot of countries with more progressive income taxes than we have also don't have the kinds of tax-advantaged retirement accounts the US offers (which, however much we may enjoy them, are a regressive tax subsidy for the wealthy), and have much more robust pension systems, which incentivize working until the pension kicks in some time in one's 60s.

When you work fewer hours, have more vacation weeks, and get to take real substantial parental leave, living more Mustachian values doesn't really require the whole "race to early retirement" approach. The western European model doesn't incentivize a culture of FIRE as much as a culture of SWAMIs.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2023, 01:51:36 PM by Log »

erp

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2023, 12:23:45 PM »
There is a real problem, and a deep crisis ... but I don't think wealth taxes are an especially effective path out of it, they're just the left wing equivalent of "we'll stop woke corporations and drill more wells" (ie. an easy to understand, incorrect policy that doesn't have the technical nuance to solve any of the problems that actually make people worse off).

How to say you are in Alberta without saying you are in Alberta!    ;-)

Guilty as charged :P

erp

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2023, 12:26:44 PM »
It's not only that the wealthiest individuals have seen their tax burdens reduced, the same has been true for corporations

I often wonder about the ultimate value in taxing corporations.

Agreed. Taxing shareholders is the way to go. Any corporate income ultimately belongs to the shareholders. It's more progressive to tax that income based on how much income the shareholder actually receives, rather than assigning a flat rate to the corporation so that the CEO's share of the earnings is taxed at the same rate as that of the granny who owns ten shares and is living off dividends.

I love this idea. In practice it feels like it'd be pretty hard to implement, but at least it feels like it's hacking at the correct part of the issue. You could plausibly make something that feels more fair while also encouraging business growth ... maybe.

Ron Scott

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2023, 12:44:05 PM »
It's not only that the wealthiest individuals have seen their tax burdens reduced, the same has been true for corporations

I often wonder about the ultimate value in taxing corporations.

Agreed. Taxing shareholders is the way to go. Any corporate income ultimately belongs to the shareholders. It's more progressive to tax that income based on how much income the shareholder actually receives, rather than assigning a flat rate to the corporation so that the CEO's share of the earnings is taxed at the same rate as that of the granny who owns ten shares and is living off dividends.

I like it, gut level, but the deficits would be going through the roof if we eliminate corporate taxes altogether.

There is certainly no political will LOL to make up the loss by increasing taxes on shareholder gains. I mean you don’t even hear Biden talking about cutting back on the step-up like he used to. Even a Dem-controlled House and Senate had no will to touch that or the tax rates.

I also think the general proposition of increasing taxes on those with taxable income greater than $400,000 (again, couldn’t get passed with Dem controlled congress) is kinda wack on a number of fronts. And on and on…

When you claim there’s a problem…it ain’t easy to find a fix.


seattlecyclone

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2023, 01:38:11 PM »
Right. I can think a revenue-neutral swap of reduced corporate taxes for increased capital gains/dividend taxes would be a good idea, while also acknowledging that Congress would never do such a thing.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2023, 02:10:09 PM »
Right. I can think a revenue-neutral swap of reduced corporate taxes for increased capital gains/dividend taxes would be a good idea, while also acknowledging that Congress would never do such a thing.
The problem is that would essentially turn corporations into unlimited IRAs. As long as the corporations didn't pay dividends and the investors never sold, investors could hold their shares in untaxed corporations for life, getting wealthier and wealthier tax-free forever and potentially across generations. Share prices would immediately rise to crazy levels as money piled into such an opportunity, government revenues might collapse, and wealth inequality would reach feudal Europe levels. Then you have to wonder how to tax nonmonetary barter exchanges, e.g. 10 shares for a house on the beach, or 2 shares for a Lambo?

With the status quo, in which corporations are taxed and individual investors in IRAs have deferred taxes, limited amounts can be held tax-free and taxes are due on the remainder upon death of the beneficiary. Thus Uncle Sam eventually gets something, limited tax-free gains are focused on a wider range of individuals, and the growth of massive wealth dynasties (i.e. oligarchs) is slowed.

lemonlyman

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2023, 02:46:54 PM »
I'm not too in favor of raising taxes because governments are terrible capital allocators, but I am for a 100% Death tax. It would incentivize the rich to become invested in allocating capital to economic or charitable pursuits in their lifetimes. Would also incentivize paying gift taxes during their lifetimes for passing on companies and larger estate items to family members.   

Bank of American said something like $129 trillion in assets are held by baby boomers in the USA. Would be great if they were incentivized to start using it instead of death transfer.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2023, 02:59:07 PM »
Right. I can think a revenue-neutral swap of reduced corporate taxes for increased capital gains/dividend taxes would be a good idea, while also acknowledging that Congress would never do such a thing.
The problem is that would essentially turn corporations into unlimited IRAs. As long as the corporations didn't pay dividends and the investors never sold, investors could hold their shares in untaxed corporations for life, getting wealthier and wealthier tax-free forever and potentially across generations.

Only if the investors were already so wealthy that they had no need to realize the economic benefit from the growth of that investment for multiple generations out, and only if the estate tax doesn't exist.

Quote
Share prices would immediately rise to crazy levels as money piled into such an opportunity, government revenues might collapse, and wealth inequality would reach feudal Europe levels.

I could see shares increasing in value slightly if the annual tax drag from corporate taxes was instead deferred to the time the individual sold those shares, but it's not immediately obvious why any "crazy" increase would occur. Remember the tax swap is intended to be revenue-neutral, so a short-term revenue drop could be expected to occur but if you set the rates right it will even out over time. The government will get its piece eventually.

Also not obvious to me why this would increase wealth inequality. If anything I'd expect that to decrease, as the less-wealthy shareholders benefit from increased share values and pay less tax than before (under a set of progressive tax brackets), while the more-wealthy shareholders pay a bit more tax than before.

Right now the US charges a 21% corporate tax rate, while letting shareholders defer tax on the other 79% of retained earnings until they sell. I don't think changing the split from 21/79 to 0/100 would result in the massive structural changes you expect. While ten-share granny is currently paying the same 21% corporate tax as million-share CEO, and progressive brackets are only applied on the other 79%, I'm suggesting that the progressive brackets be assigned to the whole balance. Granny would pay a bit less, CEO would pay a bit more.

Quote
Then you have to wonder how to tax nonmonetary barter exchanges, e.g. 10 shares for a house on the beach, or 2 shares for a Lambo?

Our tax law already takes this into account. This has come up recently with the rise of cryptocurrency. When you purchase goods or services with Bitcoins you're deemed to have sold that cryptocurrency for a fair-market rate at that time, and will be assessed capital gains tax accordingly. No reason why the same wouldn't be true if people started exchanging corporate shares for goods or services directly instead of trading those shares for cash first.

PeteD01

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2023, 03:21:31 PM »
...
(LOL it is funny watching the Biden administration running around the world imploring other countries to maintain a comparable corporate tax to America’s. If a corporation approached other corporations to maintain similar pricing in the marketplace it’d be a felony!)
...

What is the logic here?

The US government negotiating with other countries in an effort to level the playing field, by making corporate tax avoidance more difficult, really has nothing to do with corporations engaging in illegal price fixing or other market distorting activities.

Is this intentional or do you actually not see the difference between attempts to maintain a fair international tax environment that does not incentivize corporate tax avoidance via geo-arbitration, and corporate activities that are detrimental to competition in the market?

The US isn't a corporation in competition with other corporations and its actions can't be judged by the same standards as corporations are.

Looking at that particular negotiation, keeping corporate tax levels comparable in different jurisdictions to prevent corporate geo-arbitration, and comparing it to corporate price fixing etc. makes absolutely no sense.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2023, 06:52:26 AM by PeteD01 »

Ron Scott

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2023, 10:56:18 PM »
I'm not too in favor of raising taxes because governments are terrible capital allocators, but I am for a 100% Death tax.

OK, let’s see…

Forcing women to give birth against their will, gerrymandering congressional districts to ensure a single party stays in power, banning books that don’t reinforce the cultural norms of the established power…and confiscating people’s remaining assets at their death to build a utopian society.

We can just skip socialism altogether and go straight to communist authoritarianism. Call us the USSA.

GuitarStv

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2023, 06:14:08 AM »
I'm not too in favor of raising taxes because governments are terrible capital allocators, but I am for a 100% Death tax.

OK, let’s see…

Forcing women to give birth against their will, gerrymandering congressional districts to ensure a single party stays in power, banning books that don’t reinforce the cultural norms of the established power…and confiscating people’s remaining assets at their death to build a utopian society.

We can just skip socialism altogether and go straight to communist authoritarianism. Call us the USSA.

There's no confiscation of wealth that occurs with a death tax.  You cannot own wealth after death.

Morning Glory

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2023, 06:47:14 AM »
I'm not too in favor of raising taxes because governments are terrible capital allocators, but I am for a 100% Death tax.

OK, let’s see…

Forcing women to give birth against their will, gerrymandering congressional districts to ensure a single party stays in power, banning books that don’t reinforce the cultural norms of the established power…and confiscating people’s remaining assets at their death to build a utopian society.

We can just skip socialism altogether and go straight to communist authoritarianism. Call us the USSA.

There's no confiscation of wealth that occurs with a death tax.  You cannot own wealth after death.

True.
Preventing massive dynastic wealth accumulation is a far cry from communism. This place would likely be a lot more democratic and less gerrymandered without the Kochs, Waltons,  and other big rich families throwing their dark money around.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2023, 07:02:01 AM »
It's not only that the wealthiest individuals have seen their tax burdens reduced, the same has been true for corporations

I often wonder about the ultimate value in taxing corporations.

Agreed. Taxing shareholders is the way to go. Any corporate income ultimately belongs to the shareholders. It's more progressive to tax that income based on how much income the shareholder actually receives, rather than assigning a flat rate to the corporation so that the CEO's share of the earnings is taxed at the same rate as that of the granny who owns ten shares and is living off dividends.

I like it, gut level, but the deficits would be going through the roof if we eliminate corporate taxes altogether.

There is certainly no political will LOL to make up the loss by increasing taxes on shareholder gains. I mean you don’t even hear Biden talking about cutting back on the step-up like he used to. Even a Dem-controlled House and Senate had no will to touch that or the tax rates.

I also think the general proposition of increasing taxes on those with taxable income greater than $400,000 (again, couldn’t get passed with Dem controlled congress) is kinda wack on a number of fronts. And on and on…

When you claim there’s a problem…it ain’t easy to find a fix.
Unfortunately you can't have much of a discussion about this topic without getting in to politics, so that's my disclaimer about what I'm about to say...

That's the crux of our current problem, the Republican party has been captured by wealthy elites.  They finally managed to get a speaker of the House and the first thing they do is tie an aid package to Israel together with defunding the IRS, with a boldface lie that the IRS funding cuts will 'help offset the cost'.  They have shown their cards.

It's not just that wealth inequality is difficult to fix, it is, but nobody seems to be in the ring fighting for it.

Morning Glory

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2023, 10:47:57 AM »
Yeah this will take more than one type of solution. I think that universal healthcare would go a long way though in helping mitigate some of the consequences of the income inequality such as disparities in life expectancy. I will leave y'all to argue about the best way to get rich people to pay more taxes in order to fund it (eliminate upper threshold for FICA tax and make it more progressive, increase estate tax, eliminate deductions that predominantly benefit the wealthy, etc):

-https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R44846
report on how increasing the official retirement age for social security disproportionately impacts lower earners because they don't live as long as high earners

There are also articles about how the employer based healthcare system suppresses wages around the middle of the scale because the employers face ever increasing costs for providing health benefits, which get passed onto employees in the form of lower raises and increased cost-sharing
https://www.wtwco.com/en-us/insights/2023/07/the-big-paycheck-squeeze-the-impacts-of-rising-healthcare-costs

Thirdly, at the very bottom of the income ladder, are folks who have to cobble together multiple part time jobs because their employers would have to provide health benefits if they worked over a certain number of hours at one job, an unintended but highly predictable consequence of current health policy. A government health care system along with a higher minimum wage/ elimination of tip credit might be enough for these guys to get by one one job and have a much increased quality of life:

https://aspe.hhs.gov/reports/who-are-low-wage-workers-0#make
« Last Edit: November 02, 2023, 11:24:09 AM by Morning Glory »

lemonlyman

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #44 on: November 02, 2023, 12:19:51 PM »
Yeah this will take more than one type of solution. I think that universal healthcare would go a long way though in helping mitigate some of the consequences of the income inequality such as disparities in life expectancy. I will leave y'all to argue about the best way to get rich people to pay more taxes in order to fund it (eliminate upper threshold for FICA tax and make it more progressive, increase estate tax, eliminate deductions that predominantly benefit the wealthy, etc):

-https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R44846
report on how increasing the official retirement age for social security disproportionately impacts lower earners because they don't live as long as high earners

There are also articles about how the employer based healthcare system suppresses wages around the middle of the scale because the employers face ever increasing costs for providing health benefits, which get passed onto employees in the form of lower raises and increased cost-sharing
https://www.wtwco.com/en-us/insights/2023/07/the-big-paycheck-squeeze-the-impacts-of-rising-healthcare-costs

Thirdly, at the very bottom of the income ladder, are folks who have to cobble together multiple part time jobs because their employers would have to provide health benefits if they worked over a certain number of hours at one job, an unintended but highly predictable consequence of current health policy. A government health care system along with a higher minimum wage/ elimination of tip credit might be enough for these guys to get by one one job and have a much increased quality of life:

https://aspe.hhs.gov/reports/who-are-low-wage-workers-0#make

I agree with all this. Employer based healthcare is very hard on the finances on employers of <500 employees and really hard on the financial security and portability of employees at employers of all sizes. Fixing a market that is neither transparent nor elastic in demand would help a lot of people (let alone gross cost).

I'm not too in favor of raising taxes because governments are terrible capital allocators, but I am for a 100% Death tax.

OK, let’s see…

Forcing women to give birth against their will, gerrymandering congressional districts to ensure a single party stays in power, banning books that don’t reinforce the cultural norms of the established power…and confiscating people’s remaining assets at their death to build a utopian society.

We can just skip socialism altogether and go straight to communist authoritarianism. Call us the USSA.

You're many steps down a conversation I would never have and didn't intend. Like being shouted at down the table by conservative grandpa. There is already a $12.92 million exemption on estate tax, but I think after that it should be 100% to encourage lifetime gift tax use, more active family offices, charitable gifts, and general planning and activity for excess capital. Not sure what's utopian about that. It's just adjusting incentives for activity which is a major consideration for tax policy.

LennStar

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #45 on: November 02, 2023, 01:17:17 PM »
I am a bit late to the thread, but I will give a short answer to the OP question:

Yes, taxing the rich more. You made the error of talking about %. (And reported income as that.)

But paying 90% (a far higher rate) for 1 million still leaves you with 100K, while paying 10% on 10K still leaves you piss poor.

While income inequality with a high difference is bad, it's not half as bad as accumulation (wealth) inequality.

Literally for all of written history (Babylonian clay tablets) this was a major problem. Which generally was solved in 2 ways: Either a bloody revolution or a general forgiveness (Ever heard the Christian term of Jubilee year?).
Now, there might be a middle way here, but which of those 2 options would you prefer we err in the direction to?

And yes, I am all for an inheritance tax starting at 50% with a fair free amount, and rising to 90%. (Actually I am for 100% with a low free amount, but that is extremely unrealistic to achieve or even explain, people just switch off their brain.)

There was talk about here in Germany about such a higher inheritance tax which would be used to give everyone 20K on coming of age.

For the reason: See above about the correlation of inequality and general misery both for humans and "the economy".

SunnyDays

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #46 on: November 02, 2023, 02:35:33 PM »
I'm curious, is every earned dollar taxed in the US?  In Canada, we are allowed to earn almost 15K before any federal tax is owed and, in my province, the same amount before provincial tax is owed.  That goes at least some ways toward letting lower income people keep more of their money.

EvenSteven

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #47 on: November 02, 2023, 02:40:18 PM »
I'm curious, is every earned dollar taxed in the US?  In Canada, we are allowed to earn almost 15K before any federal tax is owed and, in my province, the same amount before provincial tax is owed.  That goes at least some ways toward letting lower income people keep more of their money.

There is a standard deduction of $13,850 in 2023, so that much of wage income is not taxed at the federal level. Each state is different, some have no tax at all, some have pretty progressive tax structures, and some are very flat.

Morning Glory

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #48 on: November 02, 2023, 02:56:16 PM »
I'm curious, is every earned dollar taxed in the US?  In Canada, we are allowed to earn almost 15K before any federal tax is owed and, in my province, the same amount before provincial tax is owed.  That goes at least some ways toward letting lower income people keep more of their money.

There is a standard deduction of $13,850 in 2023, so that much of wage income is not taxed at the federal level. Each state is different, some have no tax at all, some have pretty progressive tax structures, and some are very flat.

There is also the fica tax which is a flat rate ~9% from the first dollar up to 110k or so (not exactly sure of current amount) so a regressive tax. The standard deduction on federal tax intends to make up for this.

SunnyDays

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Re: Income inequality in America
« Reply #49 on: November 02, 2023, 03:16:04 PM »
Okay, thanks for the info.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!