Author Topic: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?  (Read 47279 times)

slappy

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #250 on: July 06, 2020, 06:26:34 AM »
I don't take his advice as a literal exact prescription. I just take it as: carefully consider how you earn your money, and how you spend it, oh and by the way here are some examples.

I'm not really interested in retiring early. Many people seem to have the idea that they should work hard for 40hr a week for 40 years so they can then work 0hr a week for 20 years. Some of the FIRE crowd adapt that by saying, "well if you're frugal, then the 40yr work becomes 20." But it's the same thing, really.

But there are other options. For example, if you're frugal then you're essentially living on (for example) 20 of your 40 hours a week - so why not just work 20hr pw forever? Or, let's say you want to live on $40k, rather than doing a job you hate for $80k and then bailing on it after 20 years, do a job you love for $40k. Or maybe you don't give a damn what you do for a paid job, but you really care about your children, or volunteering for the Red Cross - so you do a job which you may love or hate, but you aren't that bothered by it, because it funds this other thing you do love to do.

And so on. There are many possibilities. The point is not that this or that lifestyle is ideal for everyone, but that the life you choose should be one you choose after careful thought, not one you just drift into. Many people just drift into things and then are unhappy.

For me, it's about choice. It's easy to say you're not interested in retiring early now. Who knows how you will feel in 5 or 10 years. Besides that, many people have mentioned disability. You may not have a choice at some point, whether that's "early" or not. So for me, I just want to put myself in the best position so that I can have choices. Essentially FU money I guess. My example is that DH and I saved as much as we could before we had kids. Our plan was to have two working parents, and I figured that once daycare costs came along we may not be able to save as much, so I wanted to front load the savings. In a completely unexpected and somewhat tragic turn of events, my DH is now a SAHD, and our savings rate has fallen. I'm very grateful that he was able to walk about from a very bad situation because we had saved in the past even though we "didn't want to retire early". My plan is to hit my 25x expenses and then do something else, part time or whatever. Hopefully enough to cover all expenses, but maybe only enough to cover half. That still brings my withdrawal rate way down and reduces pressure on my portfolio.

ender

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #251 on: July 06, 2020, 07:26:36 AM »
For me, it's about choice. It's easy to say you're not interested in retiring early now. Who knows how you will feel in 5 or 10 years.

+100

I do not know when/if I will end up retiring early. But being FI will almost assuredly have positive benefits on my career and lifestyle and so we aggressively save.

Maybe that means we retire early, maybe not. But... it's certainly a lot better to hate your job with a million in savings and significant FU money than it is to have $0.

kite

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #252 on: July 06, 2020, 08:38:49 AM »
@kite Thank you for that post.  You completely nailed why these topics should be discussed.  I'm sorry about your nephew as it sounds like he has a tough road ahead. 

@Spud As someone who is both left-handed and disabled at age 49 (unexpectedly), I can assure you that the two are not the same when it comes to FI and consequences on savings rate, etc.

Tell me, since you became disabled unexpectedly at age 49, have you been struggling because of the lack of posts that MMM has written specifically for people who became disabled unexpectedly at age 49? My bet is that you don't need specific advice on finances just because you're disabled now. You're sharp enough to continue applying what you learned during the time before you became disabled and adapt it as and when you need it.

That's all I was trying to say with my left handed comment.

Imma's comment in her post just made me wonder why people facing challenges such as chronic conditions need specific advice from MMM. Why would someone with chronic conditions expect that kind of content from MMM when he probably has no experience in that area of life?

It just struck me as odd.

MMM, like every other blogger, writes what he knows.  If disability hasn’t [yet] come onto his radar, it’s no surprise that he would glide right by it as though it doesn’t exist.  And this is his sandbox, so he gets to do that.   But disability or chronic conditions are not a niche.  It is the present or future condition of most of us. Pointing out the omission isn’t a complaint that MMM failed to address our specific challenges.  It’s more akin to Abraham Wald noting survivorship bias.

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #253 on: July 06, 2020, 01:21:00 PM »
MMM, like every other blogger, writes what he knows.  If disability hasn’t [yet] come onto his radar, it’s no surprise that he would glide right by it as though it doesn’t exist.  And this is his sandbox, so he gets to do that.   But disability or chronic conditions are not a niche.  It is the present or future condition of most of us. Pointing out the omission isn’t a complaint that MMM failed to address our specific challenges.  It’s more akin to Abraham Wald noting survivorship bias.

Very well said @kite - both that MMM has missed out something important and that we can acknowledge a gap without demanding anything different.

exit2019

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #254 on: July 06, 2020, 02:12:10 PM »
So if you take care of your house, a tornado won't hit it. But if it does, and you care, then it's because you bought a house you couldn't afford to lose

...

But his underlying message is that if they get sick, it's because they didn't take good enough care of themselves.

I was going to post exactly this.  He doesn't seem to understand things like survivorship bias at all, and talks a lot about "the statistics" while very, very clearly having no understanding at all about how statistics works.

lemonlyman

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #255 on: July 07, 2020, 09:56:25 AM »
Adding Covid tweets to my list.

Nick_Miller

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #256 on: July 07, 2020, 10:27:10 AM »
Adding Covid tweets to my list.

Yeah, add me to that. I avoid twitter battles, but I really had to fight the urge to respond.


G-String

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #257 on: July 07, 2020, 12:50:30 PM »
Did you guys see MMM's tweet today?  He said statistically, all you need to fight COVID are salads, bikes and barbells. 

solon

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #258 on: July 07, 2020, 01:22:51 PM »
Did you guys see MMM's tweet today?  He said statistically, all you need to fight COVID are salads, bikes and barbells.

Clearly, that's not what he said. He just said that focusing on those three things has a bigger impact than focusing on COVID.
Quote
Statistically speaking, these three Circles of Life have a MUCH bigger positive impact on your health and longevity, than whether you happen to catch or dodge COVID.

So why are we wasting our time arguing about who is wearing masks?

Bikes, Barbells and Salads.

Laura33

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #259 on: July 07, 2020, 01:33:14 PM »
I had to go read the tweets after the earlier posts.  All I can say is:  holy shit.  Why do "waste our time" worrying about masks?  Really?  Uhhhhh, how about because wearing masks and taking care of ourselves in other ways (salads/bikes/barbells) ARE NOT FUCKING MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. 

It's like saying "why worry about seatbelts when you drive?  You'll reduce your risks of car crashes much more by driving less and biking more."  Entirely true!  And yet you still put on your fucking seatbelt when you DO drive, because now matter how much you reduce your overall risks by driving less, that means jack squat when you ARE driving.

For a smart guy, he can be really, really stupid about things that don't fit his master-of-the-universe worldview.

lemonlyman

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #260 on: July 07, 2020, 01:36:23 PM »
Because masks help protect the most vulnerable among us. You might skate through with barely any symptoms but give it to someone who later dies while riding around on your bike clearing your throat. Statistically speaking, what he said makes no sense.

He also assumes NY infection rate improvements are the result of herd immunity vs mass lockdown and mask policy. I hope he also illuminates us on Florida's prospects for herd immunity soon.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2020, 01:41:04 PM by lemonlyman »

G-String

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #261 on: July 07, 2020, 01:39:46 PM »
Because masks help protect the most vulnerable among us. You might skate through with barely any symptoms but give it to someone who later dies while riding around on your bike clearing your throat. Statistically speaking, what he said makes no sense.

He also assumes NY infection rate improvements are the result of herd immunity vs mass lockdown and mask policy. I hope he also illuminates us on Florida's prospects for herd immunity soon.
Sounds like MMM is on his way to becoming a medical doctor, with an expertise in infectious diseases! 

PoutineLover

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #262 on: July 07, 2020, 01:43:19 PM »
I can't speak to his actual view obviously, but I interpreted the tweet somewhat differently.
"So why are we wasting our time arguing about who is wearing masks?"
We can and should wear masks ourselves, but arguing about other people wearing them is unlikely to make any difference and is a waste of time. If you want to advocate for policies on masks, speak to your own family or friends, and wear one yourself, more power to you. But having discussions on the internet about other people's behaviour is totally useless and counterproductive.

mathlete

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #263 on: July 07, 2020, 01:44:00 PM »
Lol I don't follow MMM on Twitter but my eyes just about rolled out of my head on that tweet. I agree that focusing on things you have control over is usually a good thing. But I guess when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Heart disease and diabetes are huge public health issues in the US. I'm all for encouraging healthy eating and exercise. But if you don't have anything to say regarding the emerging risk of a novel virus, maybe keep your mouth shut about salads. Neil DeGrasse Tyson levels of unhelpfulness. :)


solon

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #264 on: July 07, 2020, 01:49:42 PM »
There's also this comment:
Quote
Masks are great way to care for others in the current era.

But choosing not to drive a car - especially in cities - is also a really big one in all times as well.

mathlete

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #265 on: July 07, 2020, 01:53:53 PM »
"It is such bullshit that the news focuses on scary but insignificant things, while ignoring much bigger things that we can control."

Insignificant! With over half a million deaths worldwide. What the shit.

I find that the people who complain about "the news this" and "the news that" are really talking about their own impression of the news. They probably consume very little news media themselves. After all, why would you need to read anything, or listen to anyone else when you already know everything?

I've been a subscriber to the Washington Post for years. Their pandemic coverage has been excellent (and free, by the way). Today, they included an article about things you can do with your kids outdoors this Summer while the virus stuff is closing things down and altering plans. https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2020/07/07/10-ways-help-your-child-fall-love-with-nature-this-summer/

Go outside. Get dirty. Play with bugs. It sounds a lot like a MMM blog post actually. Very "circle of influence".

Contrary to what these folks seem to believe, "news media" is not some monolith that you should expect to spoonfeed you relevant and helpful data with little or no effort on your part. You gotta do a little more work. You have to curate your news feed, read and remember good journalists, read past the headlines, etc. If you just scroll twitter and see screen grabs of cable news and say, "OMG Look what garbage they're peddling on CNN/Fox News", then you're part of the problem IMO.

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #266 on: July 07, 2020, 02:13:17 PM »
I can't speak to his actual view obviously, but I interpreted the tweet somewhat differently.
"So why are we wasting our time arguing about who is wearing masks?"
We can and should wear masks ourselves, but arguing about other people wearing them is unlikely to make any difference and is a waste of time. If you want to advocate for policies on masks, speak to your own family or friends, and wear one yourself, more power to you. But having discussions on the internet about other people's behaviour is totally useless and counterproductive.
Of course arguing about other people’s behavior is useless and counterproductive as it’s completely outside our scope of control. But isn’t that the point of most political discourse? Wanting to think we’re in control of that which we aren’t while ignoring that which we are?

As for masks, I don’t think it makes a huge difference. But I’ll wear them properly and encourage others to do the same. And that’s pretty much my scope of control.


mathlete

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #267 on: July 07, 2020, 02:14:32 PM »
Of course arguing about other people’s behavior is useless and counterproductive as it’s completely outside our scope of control. But isn’t that the point of most political discourse? Wanting to think we’re in control of that which we aren’t while ignoring that which we are?

As for masks, I don’t think it makes a huge difference. But I’ll wear them properly and encourage others to do the same. And that’s pretty much my scope of control.

This kind of flies in the face of hundreds of years of advocacy and activism. Things don't just magically improve on their own.

Laura33

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #268 on: July 07, 2020, 02:35:45 PM »
As for masks, I don’t think it makes a huge difference. But I’ll wear them properly and encourage others to do the same. And that’s pretty much my scope of control.

FWIW: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31142-9/fulltext

One of the things I read (which must be true, since I read it on the internet) is the multiplier value of the various protective methods.  If 6' distancing and reduces risks by 80%, that's great.  But if wearing a mask reduces your risk by another 80%, now you're up to around a 95% risk reduction -- and then if both of you wear a mask, now you're at 99%.  Obviously these are made-up numbers (although the article I read purported to have "real" numbers for each action).  But it illustrates why the argument shouldn't be about whether one specific thing is going to solve all of our problems, and why collective action is so critical to getting this under control.

mm1970

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #269 on: July 07, 2020, 03:06:43 PM »
As for masks, I don’t think it makes a huge difference. But I’ll wear them properly and encourage others to do the same. And that’s pretty much my scope of control.

FWIW: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31142-9/fulltext

One of the things I read (which must be true, since I read it on the internet) is the multiplier value of the various protective methods.  If 6' distancing and reduces risks by 80%, that's great.  But if wearing a mask reduces your risk by another 80%, now you're up to around a 95% risk reduction -- and then if both of you wear a mask, now you're at 99%.  Obviously these are made-up numbers (although the article I read purported to have "real" numbers for each action).  But it illustrates why the argument shouldn't be about whether one specific thing is going to solve all of our problems, and why collective action is so critical to getting this under control.
Yep.  Plus I like this page.  Explains some of the data and reasoning.

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent

TempusFugit

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #270 on: July 07, 2020, 05:10:49 PM »
For me, it's about choice. It's easy to say you're not interested in retiring early now. Who knows how you will feel in 5 or 10 years.

+100

I do not know when/if I will end up retiring early. But being FI will almost assuredly have positive benefits on my career and lifestyle and so we aggressively save.

Maybe that means we retire early, maybe not. But... it's certainly a lot better to hate your job with a million in savings and significant FU money than it is to have $0.


Absolutely.  I may work 5 or 10 more years (or more) but i will sure enjoy having the knowledge that no one has financial power over me.  I mean, the world financial system could collapse i suppose, but then we’re all screwed anyway. 

Jobs are less stressful when you know you can just walk away.  Its about options options options.  If i get fired (the bad kind) tomorrow, i don't really have to worry about  how I’m going to pay my bills and that kind of security is priceless.   

big_owl

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #271 on: July 07, 2020, 05:20:16 PM »
Ugh, IDK, the more I read and understand about MMM the less I respect him.  He's spent years "facepunching" me for any multitude of reasons yet he has a failed marriage, smokes dope, takes an assinine risk in not having health insurance, and he COMPLETELY bared his ass on covid and wound up totally wrong. 

The older I get the more humble I get.  I still make stupid posts that I later regret.  Of course I'm not an internet personality so the stakes aren't as high.  And yes I'd suck it up and get pics taken with my fans if I had any.

But basically I'm sort of coming to terms with the idea that MMM is more a product of an ever-increasing market vs. skill.  And he's had such extreme privilege it's hard to take him seriously anymore. 

I will give him credit for opening my eyes to the possibility of retiring way early.  But that's about it anymore.

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #272 on: July 07, 2020, 05:34:51 PM »
Of course arguing about other people’s behavior is useless and counterproductive as it’s completely outside our scope of control. But isn’t that the point of most political discourse? Wanting to think we’re in control of that which we aren’t while ignoring that which we are?

As for masks, I don’t think it makes a huge difference. But I’ll wear them properly and encourage others to do the same. And that’s pretty much my scope of control.

This kind of flies in the face of hundreds of years of advocacy and activism. Things don't just magically improve on their own.

Of course things don’t change on their own. The Powers That Be often decide that a course of action is no longer tenable or profitable. And every now and then, some smart people do something creative outside the realm of politics that changes behavior.

So what have those hundreds of years of advocacy and activism actually produced as compared to the resources expended? It may have missed my notice, but it looks to me like class inequality is greater than ever, not many people (current company excepted) have any real economic security, and if you get unlucky and get sick you’re still pretty much screwed. Results matter, and the results of political advocacy and activism in the US have been grim indeed.

But let’s reel it back and talk about masks. So advocacy and activism and politics is going to persuade people to socially distance and properly wear a mask? Are we saying that if we vote for the “correct” political leaders they’re going to somehow persuade people to wear a mask because every epidemiologist and doctor and media talking head hasn’t been able to persuade them of that to date?

Or maybe we could try to be smart and go outside the realm of politics and try something different. Maybe we could exercise some personal leadership and just talk to people and thank them for caring enough about other people to wear a mask. A simple thank you works. Or if we want to really push the limits, we could just hand out $10 bills as an instant reward. No politics or advocacy or activism needed. Just a willingness to think out of the box and do something different.


American GenX

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #273 on: July 07, 2020, 05:46:25 PM »

I don't know much about MMM's approach.  I didn't find the few blog articles I read or skimmed through very interesting or to my liking.  I've been in the business of saving, investing, and being frugal many years before I ever heard of MMM, so I guess that I didn't have much to learn.  I just come here for the forum - more for interesting discussion and picking up some tips.

mm1970

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #274 on: July 07, 2020, 08:22:12 PM »
I had to go read the tweets after the earlier posts.  All I can say is:  holy shit.  Why do "waste our time" worrying about masks?  Really?  Uhhhhh, how about because wearing masks and taking care of ourselves in other ways (salads/bikes/barbells) ARE NOT FUCKING MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. 

It's like saying "why worry about seatbelts when you drive?  You'll reduce your risks of car crashes much more by driving less and biking more."  Entirely true!  And yet you still put on your fucking seatbelt when you DO drive, because now matter how much you reduce your overall risks by driving less, that means jack squat when you ARE driving.

For a smart guy, he can be really, really stupid about things that don't fit his master-of-the-universe worldview.
JFC I am right now very glad that I don't twitter.  I just cannot with this.

Eat well, exercise, wear a FUCKING MASK so my 76 year old mother in law doesn't die, asshole.

mm1970

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #275 on: July 07, 2020, 08:25:15 PM »
There's also this comment:
Quote
Masks are great way to care for others in the current era.

But choosing not to drive a car - especially in cities - is also a really big one in all times as well.
Maybe he's behind the curve on current events.  Bicycles are sold out everywhere...including children's bikes.

mm1970

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #276 on: July 07, 2020, 08:28:17 PM »
Of course arguing about other people’s behavior is useless and counterproductive as it’s completely outside our scope of control. But isn’t that the point of most political discourse? Wanting to think we’re in control of that which we aren’t while ignoring that which we are?

As for masks, I don’t think it makes a huge difference. But I’ll wear them properly and encourage others to do the same. And that’s pretty much my scope of control.

This kind of flies in the face of hundreds of years of advocacy and activism. Things don't just magically improve on their own.
Right?  I mean, the basic local complaints about people not wearing masks resulted in county wide requirements to wear masks everywhere, except when exercising outdoors.

Thus, over the last 2 weeks, I've seen mask wearing compliance go way way up.

Trudie

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #277 on: July 07, 2020, 09:35:45 PM »
MMM wrote in an entertaining way that got me to read.  It made me consider what might be possible, motivated me to save, and that changed my life.  But I’m not really interested in what he has to say anymore, and that’s okay.  I learn from the forums.  I don’t overthink it.  I use what I want, then discard the rest.   He’s an interesting guy, but — despite jokes to the contrary— this isn’t a cult.  He’s not our leader.  I have no interest in ferreting out the “true believers” and try not to get wrapped up in the cult of personality. 

It’s good to be skeptical of everything we read, so a bit of critique is okay.  I already offered mine earlier.

Dicey

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #278 on: July 07, 2020, 10:45:33 PM »
MMM wrote in an entertaining way that got me to read.  It made me consider what might be possible, motivated me to save, and that changed my life.  But I’m not really interested in what he has to say anymore, and that’s okay.  I learn from the forums.  I don’t overthink it.  I use what I want, then discard the rest.   He’s an interesting guy, but — despite jokes to the contrary— this isn’t a cult.  He’s not our leader.  I have no interest in ferreting out the “true believers” and try not to get wrapped up in the cult of personality. 

It’s good to be skeptical of everything we read, so a bit of critique is okay.  I already offered mine earlier.
Love this comment!

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #279 on: July 07, 2020, 11:19:11 PM »
I wonder what has happened to MMM since the pandemic really hit?  I think the FIRE world could use a bit of his optimism gun these days.  His early days of romanticizing the FIRE life were pretty good (I especially liked everything up to around here, then he sorta floundered.  Posts toward late 2014 and onward were more generally about how you can now ignore money and focus on happiness (like this and this).  Scattered in were some infamous ones like https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2018/05/15/a-day-in-the-life-of-my-supposedly-frugal-stomach/ and https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/09/07/great-news-dog-ownership-is-optional/ where I disagreed, but still enjoyed, but it has steadily been downhill ever since. 

I just selfishly wish, with as much as the world seems to have changed, that he would pop back up and drop some wisdom or optimism about how great life is or will be soon.  The FIRE world needs it's MMM superhero more than ever... 

mathlete

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #280 on: July 08, 2020, 09:24:57 AM »
Of course things don’t change on their own. The Powers That Be often decide that a course of action is no longer tenable or profitable. And every now and then, some smart people do something creative outside the realm of politics that changes behavior.

The Powers that Be decide what is profitable by taking the temperature of their consumers. Google Pew Research's tracking poll for public support of gay marriage, and then plot on top of it the things that politicians and companies do. In the 90s, gay marriage was unpopular and companies brisked at doing things that supported it. Many even lobbied against it. Gay marriage grew in popularity to the point where a president could run on support for it in 2012. It was legalized in 2015. In 2016, gay marriage wasn't even a topic of conversation in the election. Public support for it is now 2-1 in favor. People accept it as a fact of life. Companies fall all over themselves to support (and of course, profit from) pride. This is how it works.

So what have those hundreds of years of advocacy and activism actually produced as compared to the resources expended? It may have missed my notice, but it looks to me like class inequality is greater than ever, not many people (current company excepted) have any real economic security, and if you get unlucky and get sick you’re still pretty much screwed. Results matter, and the results of political advocacy and activism in the US have been grim indeed.

A lot. We used to own human beings as property in the US, so economic inequality is at least a little bit better now than it was when we stole the work product of slaves. Income and wealth inequality is growing because we live under a system where capital begets more capital. But we can (and should IMO) advocate for changes in that.

Regarding getting sick, the situation is bad in the US. But 20 years ago, healthcare was a discussion over "personal responsibility". The ACA was imperfect, but it extended coverage to over ten million people. We now have an open enrollment period and you can't be denied coverage based on pre-existing conditions. It is now political suicide to get rid of that. And we tried unsuccessfully, to get rid of a lot of ACA in 2018. But we couldn't do it because public support for it was too high.

The state of US healthcare, as well as the discussion around healthcare, is unequivocally better in the US than it was 15 years ago. It's not even close. We have a lot of work to do. And advocacy is going to be a big part of it.

But let’s reel it back and talk about masks. So advocacy and activism and politics is going to persuade people to socially distance and properly wear a mask?

Yes.

Are we saying that if we vote for the “correct” political leaders they’re going to somehow persuade people to wear a mask because every epidemiologist and doctor and media talking head hasn’t been able to persuade them of that to date?

Advocacy and activism isn't all about voting.

Or maybe we could try to be smart and go outside the realm of politics and try something different. Maybe we could exercise some personal leadership and just talk to people and thank them for caring enough about other people to wear a mask. A simple thank you works. Or if we want to really push the limits, we could just hand out $10 bills as an instant reward. No politics or advocacy or activism needed. Just a willingness to think out of the box and do something different.

The bold is textbook advocacy and activism.

mathlete

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #281 on: July 08, 2020, 09:34:01 AM »
MMM wrote in an entertaining way that got me to read.  It made me consider what might be possible, motivated me to save, and that changed my life.  But I’m not really interested in what he has to say anymore, and that’s okay.  I learn from the forums.  I don’t overthink it.  I use what I want, then discard the rest.   He’s an interesting guy, but — despite jokes to the contrary— this isn’t a cult.  He’s not our leader.  I have no interest in ferreting out the “true believers” and try not to get wrapped up in the cult of personality. 

It’s good to be skeptical of everything we read, so a bit of critique is okay.  I already offered mine earlier.
Love this comment!

+1

Trudie is spot on. MMM is probably a little too rich/famous/disconnected now for much of what he talks about to have relevance to my life. But the guy did a whole hell of a lot to advance the art and science of personal finance. And I love that he advocates for environmentalism. There's so much going on in 2020, that it's easy to forget that climate change is still very much a thing.


Goldielocks

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #282 on: July 08, 2020, 11:11:54 AM »
MMM wrote in an entertaining way that got me to read.  It made me consider what might be possible, motivated me to save, and that changed my life.  But I’m not really interested in what he has to say anymore, and that’s okay.  I learn from the forums.  I don’t overthink it.  I use what I want, then discard the rest.   He’s an interesting guy, but — despite jokes to the contrary— this isn’t a cult.  He’s not our leader.  I have no interest in ferreting out the “true believers” and try not to get wrapped up in the cult of personality. 

It’s good to be skeptical of everything we read, so a bit of critique is okay.  I already offered mine earlier.

This is a great comment.

Before MMM, I was about to give up on adding to retirement funds (above my employer match)because I would make MORE money retired than I did as a family of 4 with young kids.  I was facing a prospect of working jobs I did not like for decades, life was a grind, and wanted to spend money to have good experiences today.

Then I read MMM and realized that EARLY RETIREMENT was a thing.  I could pull money out of my retirement accounts BEFORE official retirement age.  Mind Blown.   If I was FI, I could have the freedom to switch jobs to something that paid less.   "Shockingly Simple Math" was the final motivator to own my life choices.https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/

MMM's writing showed me that the handcuffs to my work and my debt were of my own making, and imaginary.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #283 on: July 08, 2020, 11:55:51 AM »
....
Then I read MMM and realized that EARLY RETIREMENT was a thing.  I could pull money out of my retirement accounts BEFORE official retirement age.  Mind Blown.   If I was FI, I could have the freedom to switch jobs to something that paid less.   "Shockingly Simple Math" was the final motivator to own my life choices.
...

I've known many unemployed or underemployed folks that pull money out of 401k's (all the way down to zero in many cases) before their 60's!  It's really not that hard.  I'm guessing you are referring to the Roth ladder or SEPP...

Dicey

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #284 on: July 08, 2020, 12:49:47 PM »
....
Then I read MMM and realized that EARLY RETIREMENT was a thing.  I could pull money out of my retirement accounts BEFORE official retirement age.  Mind Blown.   If I was FI, I could have the freedom to switch jobs to something that paid less.   "Shockingly Simple Math" was the final motivator to own my life choices.
...

I've known many unemployed or underemployed folks that pull money out of 401k's (all the way down to zero in many cases) before their 60's!  It's really not that hard.  I'm guessing you are referring to the Roth ladder or SEPP...
I think they mean pulling money out without penalty.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #285 on: July 08, 2020, 01:20:02 PM »
....
Then I read MMM and realized that EARLY RETIREMENT was a thing.  I could pull money out of my retirement accounts BEFORE official retirement age.  Mind Blown.   If I was FI, I could have the freedom to switch jobs to something that paid less.   "Shockingly Simple Math" was the final motivator to own my life choices.
...

I've known many unemployed or underemployed folks that pull money out of 401k's (all the way down to zero in many cases) before their 60's!  It's really not that hard.  I'm guessing you are referring to the Roth ladder or SEPP...
I think they mean pulling money out without penalty.
It's hard to tell with Mustachians though - we are more likely to actually believe that the money is 100% 'off limits' until 65. 

savedandsaving

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #286 on: July 08, 2020, 03:15:43 PM »
As others have mentioned, there are many paths to FIRE, and we're all perfectly within our rights to take the path we think is the best for us. MMM writes about what he knows, and that's fine. But I think one area where I disagree with MMM is his weighing expense reduction as far more important than income increase.

His blog has the specific angle of expense reduction because, as he's admitted, he started from a position of privilege: a $66k starting salary in today's dollars at age 22 for a brand-new bachelor's degree holder is unthinkable to me and virtually everyone I've ever known. Nobody told me at age 16 when I was starting college that the degree and field I choose--if not course-corrected at some point--would quite literally dictate the direction and quality of my working life for the next many decades. Also, he got a 39% raise in his first year of work and continued earning steadily more nearly every year after? I've never heard of more than a 2% routine raise...again, that kind of good fortune in one's day job is unthinkable to me.

For the reasons above and many others, I think many middle- and lower-income folks would benefit from a more balanced approach that dispenses tips for both reducing their expenses and increasing their income (while not succumbing to lifestyle inflation). I've benefitted so much from tips on other FIRE blogs for using the gig economy, continued education, real estate, and other amazing resources to try and set myself up for better earning in the present and future. I'm privileged enough to still have many ways to reduce my expenses, but plenty of people aren't in the same boat...especially if they have a large family, chronic health issues, or are socioeconomically disadvantaged.

Goldielocks

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #287 on: July 08, 2020, 04:04:24 PM »
....
Then I read MMM and realized that EARLY RETIREMENT was a thing.  I could pull money out of my retirement accounts BEFORE official retirement age.  Mind Blown.   If I was FI, I could have the freedom to switch jobs to something that paid less.   "Shockingly Simple Math" was the final motivator to own my life choices.
...

I've known many unemployed or underemployed folks that pull money out of 401k's (all the way down to zero in many cases) before their 60's!  It's really not that hard.  I'm guessing you are referring to the Roth ladder or SEPP...

Actually, I am in Canada, so I am talking about the RRSP and any savings I mentally marked "Retirement".  There is no penalty / restriction here, (unless the money came from a pension fund).
I always knew we could pull out money, penalty free at any time, or use it to buy a first home, pay for school, but I had always put a mental lock on it, as it was for "65+" years ONLY.  "The money to NEVER be touched".

Reading MMM I realized that extra savings could be used for early retirement, or other goals, that the mental lock down on my accounts / long term savings could be used for something other than classical retirement. 

Dicey

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #288 on: July 08, 2020, 08:53:21 PM »
....
Then I read MMM and realized that EARLY RETIREMENT was a thing.  I could pull money out of my retirement accounts BEFORE official retirement age.  Mind Blown.   If I was FI, I could have the freedom to switch jobs to something that paid less.   "Shockingly Simple Math" was the final motivator to own my life choices.
...

I've known many unemployed or underemployed folks that pull money out of 401k's (all the way down to zero in many cases) before their 60's!  It's really not that hard.  I'm guessing you are referring to the Roth ladder or SEPP...

Actually, I am in Canada, so I am talking about the RRSP and any savings I mentally marked "Retirement".  There is no penalty / restriction here, (unless the money came from a pension fund).
I always knew we could pull out money, penalty free at any time, or use it to buy a first home, pay for school, but I had always put a mental lock on it, as it was for "65+" years ONLY.  "The money to NEVER be touched".

Reading MMM I realized that extra savings could be used for early retirement, or other goals, that the mental lock down on my accounts / long term savings could be used for something other than classical retirement.
...and thus she bought her life back and is living happily ever after.

@Goldielocks, I totally forgot that you are Canadian ;-)

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #289 on: July 08, 2020, 09:51:57 PM »
....
Then I read MMM and realized that EARLY RETIREMENT was a thing.  I could pull money out of my retirement accounts BEFORE official retirement age.  Mind Blown.   If I was FI, I could have the freedom to switch jobs to something that paid less.   "Shockingly Simple Math" was the final motivator to own my life choices.
...

I've known many unemployed or underemployed folks that pull money out of 401k's (all the way down to zero in many cases) before their 60's!  It's really not that hard.  I'm guessing you are referring to the Roth ladder or SEPP...

Actually, I am in Canada, so I am talking about the RRSP and any savings I mentally marked "Retirement".  There is no penalty / restriction here, (unless the money came from a pension fund).
I always knew we could pull out money, penalty free at any time, or use it to buy a first home, pay for school, but I had always put a mental lock on it, as it was for "65+" years ONLY.  "The money to NEVER be touched".

Reading MMM I realized that extra savings could be used for early retirement, or other goals, that the mental lock down on my accounts / long term savings could be used for something other than classical retirement.
...and thus she bought her life back and is living happily ever after.

@Goldielocks, I totally forgot that you are Canadian ;-)

Oh, you were talking about Loonies... that says it all eh (;

Goldielocks

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #290 on: July 08, 2020, 09:59:51 PM »
....
Then I read MMM and realized that EARLY RETIREMENT was a thing.  I could pull money out of my retirement accounts BEFORE official retirement age.  Mind Blown.   If I was FI, I could have the freedom to switch jobs to something that paid less.   "Shockingly Simple Math" was the final motivator to own my life choices.
...

I've known many unemployed or underemployed folks that pull money out of 401k's (all the way down to zero in many cases) before their 60's!  It's really not that hard.  I'm guessing you are referring to the Roth ladder or SEPP...

Actually, I am in Canada, so I am talking about the RRSP and any savings I mentally marked "Retirement".  There is no penalty / restriction here, (unless the money came from a pension fund).
I always knew we could pull out money, penalty free at any time, or use it to buy a first home, pay for school, but I had always put a mental lock on it, as it was for "65+" years ONLY.  "The money to NEVER be touched".

Reading MMM I realized that extra savings could be used for early retirement, or other goals, that the mental lock down on my accounts / long term savings could be used for something other than classical retirement.
...and thus she bought her life back and is living happily ever after.

@Goldielocks, I totally forgot that you are Canadian ;-)
Well I lived in California for 3 years about 10 years ago (SFO area).  And lived in Norway for a short bit, too.

MaybeBecca

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #291 on: July 09, 2020, 06:17:19 AM »

I don't totally agree with his stance on not giving his kids wealth so they can earn their own way.

I  am in firm disagreement  with anyone who holds this view of a parent's or parents' legacy for their children.

My unvarnished opinion is that a parent or parents who enjoyed an easy life ought to ensure that  their legacy provides the same for their beloved children.

I reject the proposition that a meager legacy, that requires one's children to work instead of an abundant  legacy that does not,  is ipso facto,  superior and more beneficial for the children.
...If you want your children to have advantages it's a lot better to gift them good genes (insofar as you have some control over that) ...

At least in the US, this has become kind of a dog whistle for racist ideologies [see Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro, and the "intellectual Dark Web" (or honestly, preferably, don't)].  Basically people claim that the reason that BIPOC are not as successful as white people is because of genetic differences and "culture", rather than the hundreds of years of BIPOC oppression and white favoritism in the states.  It's somewhat beside your point, as I'm not assuming that's what you meant, but thought you might want to be aware of that.  I do agree to some degree, more so because of health problems with a genetic component, for which I am choosing not to have children (also, will our planet remain livable to humans in their lifetime?  I'm not so sure).  I think a lot of other factors - intelligence, charisma, strength - have more of a basis in nurture than people sometimes assume.  As you said, if you have a stable environment as a child, that really gives you an upper hand.

ericrugiero

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #292 on: July 09, 2020, 02:31:38 PM »
At least in the US, this has become kind of a dog whistle for racist ideologies [see Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro, and the "intellectual Dark Web" (or honestly, preferably, don't)].  Basically people claim that the reason that BIPOC are not as successful as white people is because of genetic differences and "culture", rather than the hundreds of years of BIPOC oppression and white favoritism in the states.  It's somewhat beside your point, as I'm not assuming that's what you meant, but thought you might want to be aware of that.  I do agree to some degree, more so because of health problems with a genetic component, for which I am choosing not to have children (also, will our planet remain livable to humans in their lifetime?  I'm not so sure).  I think a lot of other factors - intelligence, charisma, strength - have more of a basis in nurture than people sometimes assume.  As you said, if you have a stable environment as a child, that really gives you an upper hand.

Yes, a stable environment as a child absolutely gives you an upper hand.  In fact, we as a society tend to underrate that component.  I personally have had a lot of privilege in my life.  I'm a white male which definitely has it's advantages.  I was also raised in a home with a mother and father who loved each other.  My parents gave me a good education, taught me to work, taught me to learn, taught me to interact well with others, taught me the value of a useful college degree, kept me out of trouble, made me believe I could succeed, and tons of other valuable life lessons.  Both my genetic advantages (white male) and cultural advantages (parental teaching and modeling) have helped me.  I would argue that the second one was more important but that's obviously tough to prove. 

I would never say that one race of people are genetically more intelligent than another.  I've known some black people who were extremely intelligent and some on the other end of the spectrum.  I know one black family in particular that really struggles in this area.  They also happen to eat the least nutritious food of any family I know.  Nutrition has an underrated impact on brain function.  Kids especially need the right vitamins and minerals for their brains to develop.  There is probably a difference in test scores between black and white kids.  If so, it's almost certainly due to differences in school quality, support from parents (and others), nutrition and probably some other factors. 

mm1970

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #293 on: July 09, 2020, 02:42:58 PM »
Quote
I would never say that one race of people are genetically more intelligent than another.  I've known some black people who were extremely intelligent and some on the other end of the spectrum.  I know one black family in particular that really struggles in this area.  They also happen to eat the least nutritious food of any family I know.  Nutrition has an underrated impact on brain function.  Kids especially need the right vitamins and minerals for their brains to develop.  There is probably a difference in test scores between black and white kids.  If so, it's almost certainly due to differences in school quality, support from parents (and others), nutrition and probably some other factors.

It's poverty.

MudPuppy

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #294 on: July 09, 2020, 03:23:24 PM »
@mm1970 this this this. There is extensive research on poverty and access to good nutrition and the psychology of poverty. (Ie people experiencing poverty or other chronic stress make choices that are easier short term and not strictly more efficient)

Psychstache

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #295 on: July 09, 2020, 04:11:56 PM »
Quote
I would never say that one race of people are genetically more intelligent than another.  I've known some black people who were extremely intelligent and some on the other end of the spectrum.  I know one black family in particular that really struggles in this area.  They also happen to eat the least nutritious food of any family I know.  Nutrition has an underrated impact on brain function.  Kids especially need the right vitamins and minerals for their brains to develop.  There is probably a difference in test scores between black and white kids.  If so, it's almost certainly due to differences in school quality, support from parents (and others), nutrition and probably some other factors.

It's poverty.

Right. Plus, poverty is the common denominator to all of the other factors outlined.

jeninco

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #296 on: July 09, 2020, 05:17:56 PM »
Quote
I would never say that one race of people are genetically more intelligent than another.  I've known some black people who were extremely intelligent and some on the other end of the spectrum.  I know one black family in particular that really struggles in this area.  They also happen to eat the least nutritious food of any family I know.  Nutrition has an underrated impact on brain function.  Kids especially need the right vitamins and minerals for their brains to develop.  There is probably a difference in test scores between black and white kids.  If so, it's almost certainly due to differences in school quality, support from parents (and others), nutrition and probably some other factors.

It's poverty.

Right. Plus, poverty is the common denominator to all of the other factors outlined.

Including, alas, easily measurable things like exposure to air pollution and lead poisoning.

ericrugiero

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #297 on: July 10, 2020, 07:23:58 AM »
Quote
I would never say that one race of people are genetically more intelligent than another.  I've known some black people who were extremely intelligent and some on the other end of the spectrum.  I know one black family in particular that really struggles in this area.  They also happen to eat the least nutritious food of any family I know.  Nutrition has an underrated impact on brain function.  Kids especially need the right vitamins and minerals for their brains to develop.  There is probably a difference in test scores between black and white kids.  If so, it's almost certainly due to differences in school quality, support from parents (and others), nutrition and probably some other factors.

It's poverty.

The family that I'm talking about probably spends more on their food (primarily coca cola and ground beef-no vegetables) than many of the families on this forum who eat much healthier.  The problem is, neither of them was taught how to shop, cook, or eat healthy.  It's less of an actual money issue (in their case) than a knowledge and desire issue.  But, you are right that all of these issues are much more common with poverty. 

mathlete

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #298 on: July 10, 2020, 07:31:43 AM »
@mm1970 this this this. There is extensive research on poverty and access to good nutrition and the psychology of poverty. (Ie people experiencing poverty or other chronic stress make choices that are easier short term and not strictly more efficient)

https://www.npr.org/2017/03/23/521195903/how-the-scarcity-mindset-can-make-problems-worse

Good NPR story about this.

joe189man

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #299 on: July 10, 2020, 08:56:55 AM »
Seems like we got off topic for a bunch of the above posts,

I love the idea of FIRE that MMM and many others discuss, but it often has a suffering through it component (extreme frugality) to get to your magical number of ~25x annual expenses.

I dont want to live an extremely frugal life just so i can retire and continue to live extremely frugally albeit just not working.

i would like to see or read more about folks who have designed their lives in such a way as to enjoy most aspects of it, not suffering through 10 years of being a computer programmer then becoming a part time carpenter/writer because that's where their passions lie. i think about what my perfect day would look like or my designed life all the time, even at 80 years old i want ~4 hours a day of some sort of work, to contribute, to help others, to pass on what i have learned

i guess if i were going to "start a cult" (MMM words) it would focus on how to design your life so you wanted to live it, not save every penny you could to escape it