Author Topic: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?  (Read 40878 times)

ketchup

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #50 on: June 24, 2020, 12:54:04 PM »
I agree with a lot of what's been said so far.  I do think "clown car" "face punches" and being overly judgey are the MMM character more than Pete himself.  That's just his way of getting the points across.  That said:

He acts like kids are the bestest most fulfilling thing ever, but pets are a no-go.  I have the opposite view.  Getting snipped childless at 26 was one of my best decisions.

I'm pretty extreme by most people's standard on the minimal-insurance spectrum (SO MANY people pay $10/mo for smartphone insurance with a $200 deductible.  What even.), but even I wouldn't pretend no home or health insurance was a reasonable move for just about anyone.

Overly preaching MVNOs gets a bit old (especially when they aren't even great ones..).  For some people, not running the risk of being throttled and being able to rely on all possible coverage options actually matters.  For plenty it doesn't, but it's hardly a "anyone who pays full price is a sucker" situation.

His car advice is an interesting one.  He seems more willing to spend on cars (purchase price) than I am, yet he drives way less than I do.  I still stand by my rough "spend about a paycheck" on a car stance.  I don't understand why you'd spend five figures on a car if you only drive a couple thousand miles a year.  Get a 20 year old Corolla, or rent when you need it.

I like that he pushes salads and barbells, but to pretend that cures all health ills is just silly.  Everyone should eat salads and lift barbells, but that won't stop them from getting cancer (may lower risk sure, but does not eliminate it), or getting COVID, or getting hit by a bus.

I do agree with the bulk of what he says.  I'm here, after all.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #51 on: June 24, 2020, 01:33:45 PM »
Man changed my life! I donít disagree with any of his approach because itís the way he wants to live his life and his opinion on things. Like any opinion, I take what works for me and leave the rest. I happen to agree with most of his perspectives but I donít have the will or desire to emulate, and thatís ok. His thinking challenged my own and what I thought I needed or wanted. Heís one of the few people that has actually had a profound influence on my life as an adult because I simply did not get personal finance before. Heís out here living his literal best life, while truly caring about the world around him and the people in it. Thatís admirable to me. Heís backed it up with actions, not complaining on someoneís forum.

kite

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2020, 02:01:42 PM »
Iíve got very little disagreement with MMMís approach.
However, I do have a dog.  And I think there is a big blind spot in much of the FIRE community on the costs of disability and long term care.  I surpassed the net-worth point at which a 4% withdraw rate should cover our living expenses indefinitely.  And this only holds if neither of us need skilled nursing care for an extended period of time.  I can live on less than $30k annually.  But that only buys about 3 months of nursing home care and could wipe us out.  With relatives living into their 90ís and spending 5+ years of that time with dementia, others having hip fractures, amputations and other extreme disabilities, I see the point when biking to Costco is just not viable.  I think I read that something like 60% of us will spend a portion of our dotage with a disability.  Even if you are fortunate enough to have a loved one to rely on for practical assistance, there is plenty of help that will need to be funded.  The bill for my Aunt was nearly $900k for her nursing home for the entire time she was there.  If I had to shell that out for myself, it would leave so much less for my spouse, for example. 

sixwings

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #53 on: June 24, 2020, 02:10:21 PM »
I recall a blog post somewhere where he talked about canola oil being a great snack and that he just takes a swig when he's hungry and it's a snack that costs like $0.01. Nope nope nope.

There's a difference between frugal and cheap. Having canola oil as your snack of choice because of the cost is just cheap.

But other than small quirks like that I think the general message is quite positive and strong. 
« Last Edit: June 24, 2020, 02:12:11 PM by sixwings »

slappy

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #54 on: June 24, 2020, 02:12:09 PM »
I recall a blog post somewhere where he talked about canola oil being a great snack and that he just takes a swig when he's hungry and it's a snack that costs like $0.01. Nope nope nope.

There's a difference between frugal and cheap. Having canola oil as your snack of choice because of the cost is just cheap.

I think that was olive oil.

thesis

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #55 on: June 24, 2020, 02:38:36 PM »
Sometimes I forget the blog exists. I have the forum bookmarked.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the divorce yet. It's not a knock on frugality itself, but it would seem there is still much more to life than simply finances. Granted, it's a personal finance blog, so what did I expect, but if anything, it's a reminder to me that finance only goes so far. I can appreciate, though, that not having to worry about finances probably makes those other issues in life easier to deal with.

I also don't share Pete's enthusiasm. I find it somewhat dangerous, cynical as I am :-). Though I can admire it from time to time

FINate

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #56 on: June 24, 2020, 03:12:45 PM »
Heís out here living his literal best life, while truly caring about the world around him and the people in it. Thatís admirable to me. Heís backed it up with actions, not complaining on someoneís forum.

Taking action to care for the world and complaining on a forum are not mutually exclusive. People can do both, and my basic assumption here is that most forum members are, in general, doing what they can to make the world a better place.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 11:31:57 AM by FINate »

undercover

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #57 on: June 24, 2020, 04:03:43 PM »
The blog is a product. Pete is a lifestyle salesman and plenty of people buy it and love it.

If anyone wanted to retire early, all they need to do is read ďthe shockingly simple mathĒ and then raise income and lower expenses accordingly based on how fast you want to retire.

Itís not that complicated.

I personally am not concerned about the environment like the blog is. Iím not wasteful, but if I want something Iím going to get it. Money is for using. I also believe in helping people. Balance in everything.

For me being frugal is rewarding and blah blah blah but I donít do it primarily because Iím super concerned with the planet, I do it because to waste money when you could invest it in order to afford a better lifestyle comfortably in the future is smarter. And of course that has to be balanced because the future isnít guaranteed.

I will say if I had millions in the bank and a $400k blog income then I wouldnít be thinking twice about buying something I really wanted aka a Tesla. Itís kind of annoying how he agonizes about buying something he wants publicly when there is literally no reason he couldnít do it. The only reason Iíd say he doesnít is so that he can continue making peak money from the blog because heíd probably be at risk of being called a phony for living a different lifestyle than he recommends.

But yeah...there are millions of way to live your life. A divorce and kid has costed him a ton of money and a spouse/kids is not something everyone wants but you also need fulfillment in other ways so your spending is going to look different.

soccerluvof4

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #58 on: June 24, 2020, 04:07:37 PM »
One of the few forums I read every comment and i can't disagree really with what anyone said, not that that was my goal.

 There are for sure some oddities or extremes, exaggerations, maybe a little arrogance, and some risks I wouldn't take for sure and I liked the earlier days and posts more and don't even open the new ones because I dont want to hear about the newest gadget he is promoting for various reasons.

Having said that though what it did lead to is me finding a course that I could live by and much more with the help of "Veterans" and even some "Newbies" to the forum that are a hell of a lot smarter than me. So as some others have mentioned I just pick and chose what i want to read and believe what I want and so on. So for that I am grateful as I am sure most everyone else here is as well.

I don't remember who said it on this thread and don't want to hunt it down BUT they said something like " What I learned was to look at how I am going to spend my money a little more carefully" and I think end of the day that's what I have done as well as how to invest it.


Bloop Bloop

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #59 on: June 24, 2020, 04:27:40 PM »

I'll start.
- I don't like the concept of being overly judgmental about others' purchases. E.g. "clown cars." I think it should suffice to say that you should only buy what truly gives you value and leave it at that. MMM can be a little parochial/evangelical in this regard. You can think that someone else's purchase is unlikely to be financially wise without getting super judgmental about it.


Here's the thing about face-punches, "clown-cars" and the overal judgemental portion of this forum:  "In the beginning" the message was about individuals looking at their own lives and giving themselves face-punches. It's been about recognizing your own financially stupid decisions, recognizing them and taking responsibility for them.  Personal accountability, not exterior enforcement.

Somewhere along the line it became de vogue for members to issue face-punches to others, to call them out for wasteful spending, even when they weren't askinbg for feedback (e.g. with a 'case study').  It's made for some nasty threads and turned a lot of people away, and a few have been banned.  It even violates two of the forum rules (#1: don't be a jerk, and #4: Be respectful...of other members). Re-reading the original blog posts it's clear that a face-punch is something you give yourself -- a way of acknowledging your past mistakes.  In retrospect I think the metaphor could have been more constructive if it didn't have such a violent connotation to it.  Instead of a 'face-punch" encourage users to dance the jig of financial stupidity (or whatever -- just an example).  But 'Face-Punch" is succinct and powerful - probably why Pete used it in the first place.


I'll even fess up to issuing some unwarranted face punches myself (and by "unwarranted" I mean giving them to people why they weren't explicitly asking for others to examine their finances).  It took another long-term poster - @Nords - to make me rethink and reread what the message and the metaphors were all about in the first place.

Part of the shift could be attributed to the shift in the forum members itself.  We're bigger and far more diverse than before.  In the first couple of years it was largely a bunch of left-brained North Americans that spent a great deal of time running mathmatical calculations to optimize everything.  Now it's far more diverse (good!) but the math has to a major degree been replaced with emotion, and that has been often supplied wtih vigor and (sometimes) judgemental connotations from other, more frugal members.

I'll try to respond to some of the many other insightful posts but this one leapt out at me.

I agree with the concept of stringent (and honest) self-examination, so in that sense I guess face-punching yourself would work. But as you say, it's often unnecessary to pass that judgment onto others. It may be rational for you or me to forego the SUV or the fancy house or whatever. But others may have a good reason to want those things. Unless they're posting a case study saying "my wife and I got into debt because we just bought a brand new Escalade on finance", you don't know their situation or their goals.

More to the point I'm not sure that it's ever beneficial to judge other people (negatively) when you don't know their full situation. That is the thing that turns me off the Face Punch, Clown Car concept. Sure, if it's limited to introspection, then that's fine, but that's not how I've seen it come across.

So even though I agree from a financial perspective on most of what MMM advocates, I think it's dangerous to embrace the judgmental, "you're right or you're wrong" side of the MMM ethos. You can judge your own actions and desires and wants but, unless you know a lot about another's situation, judging others can lead to superiority on one hand, or envy on the other, and isn't likely to help your own FI journey at all.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2020, 04:31:31 PM by Bloop Bloop »

js82

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #60 on: June 24, 2020, 04:35:07 PM »
There are things that MMM has stated/posted that sometimes contradict each other.

First, there's the high-level statement: it's not really about any one purchase, it's about taking a step back and figuring out what you really value(and what will bring you happiness) - how do you value time versus money, and certain things you can acquire with said money.  I like this philosophy.  Inherent in this statement is an element of individuality - it's tied to your own personal system of values, and what's "worth it" to me may not be the same as what's "worth it" to you.   By this line of thought, no purchases are intrinsically bad, other than the ones that conflict with your personal values, because you didn't take the time to think them through.

The above argument/philosophy is hard to reconcile with many of the instances of judging others' purchases on the blog and in these forums(and granted, I've been guilty of it too).  I can say that I wouldn't personally do something in a given situation, but without knowing someone else's values it's not as easy to say that they made a bad decision for themselves.

OtherJen

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #61 on: June 24, 2020, 04:44:48 PM »
I don't remember who said it on this thread and don't want to hunt it down BUT they said something like " What I learned was to look at how I am going to spend my money a little more carefully" and I think end of the day that's what I have done as well as how to invest it.

For sure, thatís been the most valuable takeaway Iíve gotten from both the blog and forum.

FarFetchd

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #62 on: June 24, 2020, 09:42:24 PM »
I'm more with MMM than against on pretty much everything everyone has mentioned so far in this thread. I do think that he's a little more glib than necessary with some of the health stuff, but that's an unsurprising side effect of the rest of his views, which are a huge net positive given mainstream consumerism - the largest net positive I'm aware of, really. Well, ok, no regular dentist visits is a little horrifying, lol.

However, there is one thing I do have a huge issue with, and that's the house of cards 4% rule. He's not the only one pushing it, so he doesn't deserve all the blame, but he has so much reach that he has to be held to high standards. With the decade long bull market, and the creeping up of CAPE, this is getting more urgent: while it turned out that anyone who FIREd relying on 4% within a year or two of MMM's 4% posts was perfectly fine, the past couple of years are much more dangerous. I really wish he would realize it, and publish an updated withdrawal rate article.

I'm new to the forums, and I wouldn't be surprised if this has been the subject of many megathreads, so rather than going into the case against 4% in my own words, I'll just say: check out EarlyRetirementNow's Safe Withdrawal Rate series.

On the bright side, it's nice that my problem with MMM is neatly contained to one subject. If I'm getting someone into FIRE, I can tell them MMM is all they need for the lifestyle philosophy stuff, but to completely ignore all of his financial advice, and instead go to EarlyRetirementNow. Still doesn't make for a great pitch to tell someone about this font of life changing wonderful advice, and then add the caveat that the financial side is dangerously overoptimistic, though.

Goldielocks

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #63 on: June 24, 2020, 10:00:02 PM »
...which I suspect may be a source of cognitive dissonance for Pete: He doesn't need such insurance due to his high level personal wealth (he's essentially extreme fat-FIRE), yet his blog advocates thin-FIRE. Transparency and honesty is the remedy, albeit with some loss of authority on the practical realities of thin-FIRE. This is where things like guest contributors who are truly thin-FIRE could add a voice of authenticity.

Agreed. I think he'd get a lot of credibility back for me if he stopped talking about himself and his lifestyle/businesses, and instead did more Case Studies and focused on things that are working for other people, or coaching other people to do better in their journey to FIRE.

I mean... don't even get me started on that building he bought in his town, renovated, and basically created a Mustache-Bro Country Club (Sorry... MMM HQ?). None of the expenses of the Mustache-Bro Country Club are included in his personal expenses, because the Mustache-Bro Country Club is it's own separate entity, where the Bros can get together and brew beer, drink beer, play with tools, work on projects, work out, socialize, have parties. The Mustache Bro Country Club was bought and renovated with loose change that Pete found in between his couch cushions. Does the Mustache Bro Country Club run a profit? No. It's operated on a non profit basis. Does it break even? Who could say... its financials are never disclosed. And yet it manages to suck up all of Pete's hobby expenses. Like magic, they disappear from his personal budget.

Too bad you don't own a "non profit" Mustache Bro Country Club. You lowly peasants will need to have a budget line item for entertainment in your retirement budget.

I guess I got started after all.
Hah,  This is what I thought the year he had the house building expenses included.   If I recall, he excluded all expenses related to the house from personal expenses.

From my own personal experience, building a house and the associated costs take all your money for tools and materials, and takes all your hobby time, too.   Of course your personal expenses are low.

That year he also had less than $600 for fuel.  Even if they were using the construction van to group errands with house building errands, that was stunningly low for a family of 3.   So, I realized that there was still a whole lot of truth in the accounting.
------------------------------
My peeve is his personal use of marijuana.     That's it...  and it is a personal issue, not a MMM issue.

 I did not see the lack of insurance on the 2019 finances, but I have pretty much stopped reading the blog posts.

SimpleCycle

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #64 on: June 24, 2020, 11:01:02 PM »
Most of my differences have already been covered.  Insurance is the main one.  I personally have gotten a lot of value out of the more nuanced discussions of insurance on the forums.  SS survivors benefits arenít ever mentioned on the blog, because the need for life insurance is dismissed entirely.

I find the arrogance about health and disability extremely off putting.  I have had a serious medical condition since my teens that canít be cured by lifestyle choices.  Itís bad enough to have your life choices limited by your health without the shame and blame heaped on by people who think you just need more salads and barbells.

I disagree with the idea that you should only engage in charitable giving once you are FI.  Pete doesnít preach that specifically, but he references that he didnít give much to charity until 2016 (well after heíd reached FI and was making mid-six figures from the blog) and that is certainly an interpretation I see frequently on the forums.


Missy B

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #65 on: June 24, 2020, 11:46:57 PM »
This week I visited the blog in the first time in ages. I forgot there was even a MMM blog/site and that the MMM forums existed as a standalone entity.  I find the forum much more useful on a day to day basis and once in a blue moon, visit the blog as a foundational reminder.  But I find that the blog doesn't really speak to me nowadays. 

I think it is a privilege to be cavalier about health insurance in the USA, especially when your purported online income is over 400K annually.  Those of us without that level and type of income probably should stick to health insurance.

He probably still has Canadian citizenship, which gives him the right to move back to Canada and get free treatment should he develop an expensive condition. There is still the risk of accident, but he is not risking having to pay out of pocket for cancer treatments or something. That makes it much safer not to have insurance, and not mentioning his safety net makes that post even more irresponsible.

I generally like the blog with the environment angle and the facepunches, clown cars, etc., but that article gave me pause about recommending the site to others.

Yeah, I've wondered if his being Canadian informs his attitude towards insurance.
Having said that, it isn't perfectly straightforward to get health coverage if you have not been resident in a province for at least 6 months. BC has eliminated the monthly health premiums, but you used to have to pay them and be resident.
I remember a former client of mine who moved to Washington state to be with a new partner. He had no insurance, and she was too cheap to continue to make payments (also would need to send her mail to a friend's place to look like she was still resident).
Those monthly amounts at the time were about $55 a month for a single person. She needed a Dr referral for something, and the Dr wanted $100 (private rate) because she had no coverage so she decided I must have what she needed in my records (I didn't). It was all I could do not to tell her that it was towering idiocy to give up primary care for $55 a month when you live just across the border.

Missy B

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #66 on: June 25, 2020, 12:13:34 AM »
Continuing on the topic of insurance and health care, where I disagree with MMM's approach is that he has never used his massive platform to reveal to Americans the power of universal medicare to facilitate FI for the citizens in the countries that have it.
The for-profit health system is massively profitable to large corps, which is why they and their political handmaidens are so busy flat lying to Americans about how our Canadian system works and what it actually costs.

nereo

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #67 on: June 25, 2020, 04:11:09 AM »

However, there is one thing I do have a huge issue with, and that's the house of cards 4% rule. He's not the only one pushing it, so he doesn't deserve all the blame, but he has so much reach that he has to be held to high standards. With the decade long bull market, and the creeping up of CAPE, this is getting more urgent: while it turned out that anyone who FIREd relying on 4% within a year or two of MMM's 4% posts was perfectly fine, the past couple of years are much more dangerous. I really wish he would realize it, and publish an updated withdrawal rate article.

I'm new to the forums, and I wouldn't be surprised if this has been the subject of many megathreads...

This has been discussed extensively. There is even a sticky on the 4% ďruleĒ plus dozens of parts on CAPE, past and current valuations, SORR and the like.
The bottom line is that no one should blindly follow a 4% strategy, and in reality no one does. That said, your underlying assumption that a 4% WR is ďdangerousĒ today is both a misunderstanding of what Pete ( and others) are suggesting and not well supported by historical or impartial analysis
Please

Khaetra

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #68 on: June 25, 2020, 05:45:27 AM »
Iíve got very little disagreement with MMMís approach.
However, I do have a dog.  And I think there is a big blind spot in much of the FIRE community on the costs of disability and long term care.  I surpassed the net-worth point at which a 4% withdraw rate should cover our living expenses indefinitely.  And this only holds if neither of us need skilled nursing care for an extended period of time.  I can live on less than $30k annually.  But that only buys about 3 months of nursing home care and could wipe us out.  With relatives living into their 90ís and spending 5+ years of that time with dementia, others having hip fractures, amputations and other extreme disabilities, I see the point when biking to Costco is just not viable.  I think I read that something like 60% of us will spend a portion of our dotage with a disability.  Even if you are fortunate enough to have a loved one to rely on for practical assistance, there is plenty of help that will need to be funded.  The bill for my Aunt was nearly $900k for her nursing home for the entire time she was there.  If I had to shell that out for myself, it would leave so much less for my spouse, for example.

I would never go without insurance.  All it would take is one catastrophic incident to wipe everything out and having seen that happen to a friend cements my decision.

I disagree with him on a few other areas, like biking everywhere, cheap phone plans, no pets.  While the overall message of not buying/having things you don't need is good, I have a number of things that would be 'face punch' worthy to him but they bring me a lot of happiness and that's what matters.

Laura33

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #69 on: June 25, 2020, 07:33:31 AM »
There are things that MMM has stated/posted that sometimes contradict each other.

First, there's the high-level statement: it's not really about any one purchase, it's about taking a step back and figuring out what you really value(and what will bring you happiness) - how do you value time versus money, and certain things you can acquire with said money.  I like this philosophy.  Inherent in this statement is an element of individuality - it's tied to your own personal system of values, and what's "worth it" to me may not be the same as what's "worth it" to you.   By this line of thought, no purchases are intrinsically bad, other than the ones that conflict with your personal values, because you didn't take the time to think them through.

The above argument/philosophy is hard to reconcile with many of the instances of judging others' purchases on the blog and in these forums(and granted, I've been guilty of it too).  I can say that I wouldn't personally do something in a given situation, but without knowing someone else's values it's not as easy to say that they made a bad decision for themselves.

I think the connection that is missing here is that people are total crap at figuring out what actually makes them happy.  Every single person who goes out and buys a luxury item does so because they think it's "worth it" to them for one reason or another.  But then that happiness/excitement fades, and so you need to buy another new thing to keep the buzz going, and next thing you know you're on the hedonic treadmill.

That's why MMM focuses on stoicism and anti-consumerism.  His message is most assuredly not "buy whatever you want as long as you've done the analysis and concluded that it's worth the cost."  It is much more about doing for yourself, really challenging what you think you need, and developing a life that does not rely on material things to bring happiness -- or even comfort.

Which is also why I've never considered myself a true Mustachian, because I want waaaaay too soft a lifestyle. 

PoutineLover

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #70 on: June 25, 2020, 08:19:09 AM »
I think everyone reading any advice should keep an open mind and stay skeptical in order to process the information without falling for it completely. I really enjoy the main points of the blog, like spending less than you earn, investing, environmental stewardship, being active and driving less. However, not every single thing he says is applicable to my life, and I'm not trying to copy him in every aspect. I ride my bike, drive an old car, minimize expenses on useless shit and shop around for better rates when I can. But I also have an expensive phone plan, belong to a social club, fly for vacations, have a pet and plan to have more than one kid. If you compromise on your own life satisfaction to please any blogger, you're an idiot. The point is to make the best decisions for your own life that lead to fulfilling your own personal goals (and least harm to the planet/society), everything else is just details and examples of other people's choices.

spartana

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #71 on: June 25, 2020, 09:11:50 AM »
I do find it interesting how many people gravitate toward "following." I think this is fundamentally counter to MMM's ethos.

I agree.

Following  a path blazed by others may be suitable but doing so is only  advisable after  searching,  critical self-examination.
Some of us we're already FI and RE before finding MMM and were looking for kindred spirits. Especially younger retirees who espoused minimalisim, environmentalism, and anti-consumerism as well as FI and RE. Most sites were focused on high incomes, big finances and not lower end lifestyles. Original "pre-blog moolah" MMM was different. He was basicly just this regular working dude who figured out if he didn't spend all his money on all the shiny things he could retire young , do fun stuff he enjoyed,  reduce his environmental impact, and live a much more fulfilling existence.  Period. He didn't blog about it (or earn money from it) until years after he FIREd. So while I don't agree with all of his posts, I did (and still do) see his site as a beacon for even the low income early retiree when you look at his life pre-blog income .

« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 09:14:56 AM by spartana »

MilesTeg

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #72 on: June 25, 2020, 09:54:29 AM »
I think the connection that is missing here is that people are total crap at figuring out what actually makes them happy.  Every single person who goes out and buys a luxury item does so because they think it's "worth it" to them for one reason or another.  But then that happiness/excitement fades, and so you need to buy another new thing to keep the buzz going, and next thing you know you're on the hedonic treadmill.

Sorry, nope. I wont claim every fancy thing I've ever purchased has been worth it but most have. Fancy cars, fancy computing devices, etc.

I've regretted far more 'reasonable ' purchases than what most here would call 'unreasonable' purchases.

sherr

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #73 on: June 25, 2020, 11:24:04 AM »
I will say if I had millions in the bank and a $400k blog income then I wouldnít be thinking twice about buying something I really wanted aka a Tesla. Itís kind of annoying how he agonizes about buying something he wants publicly when there is literally no reason he couldnít do it. The only reason Iíd say he doesnít is so that he can continue making peak money from the blog because heíd probably be at risk of being called a phony for living a different lifestyle than he recommends.

I don't think this is fair to MMM because there's another (I think far larger) reason that you haven't considered: that he thinks he's supposed to live as an "example". That people look up to him to see what's possible. It's not just about being called phony or better monetizing the blog.

You see this same kind of thing in similar professions like pastor. It's actually a high-stress environment, because people (unfairly) assume that you're perfect. And then when evidence comes out that you're not, the people you care about and have been trying to help can end up very hurt.

So no I don't think he agonizes about things like Teslas simply because he's a showman, I think he's trying to consider how his actions would affect the whole movement. But I agree with everyone else that I wish he'd consider that a little harder for things like health insurance...
« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 11:26:28 AM by sherr »

kite

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #74 on: June 25, 2020, 12:17:02 PM »
Sometimes I forget the blog exists. I have the forum bookmarked.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the divorce yet. It's not a knock on frugality itself, but it would seem there is still much more to life than simply finances. Granted, it's a personal finance blog, so what did I expect, but if anything, it's a reminder to me that finance only goes so far. I can appreciate, though, that not having to worry about finances probably makes those other issues in life easier to deal with.

I also don't share Pete's enthusiasm. I find it somewhat dangerous, cynical as I am :-). Though I can admire it from time to time

Canít think of why it would be mentioned.  Is divorce an approach to agree/disagree with? 

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #75 on: June 25, 2020, 12:22:03 PM »
Sometimes I forget the blog exists. I have the forum bookmarked.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the divorce yet. It's not a knock on frugality itself, but it would seem there is still much more to life than simply finances. Granted, it's a personal finance blog, so what did I expect, but if anything, it's a reminder to me that finance only goes so far. I can appreciate, though, that not having to worry about finances probably makes those other issues in life easier to deal with.

I also don't share Pete's enthusiasm. I find it somewhat dangerous, cynical as I am :-). Though I can admire it from time to time

Canít think of why it would be mentioned.  Is divorce an approach to agree/disagree with?

I think it's personal, and off limits.  That's why it's not mentioned.  That's fair to me. 

slappy

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #76 on: June 25, 2020, 12:26:28 PM »
Sometimes I forget the blog exists. I have the forum bookmarked.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the divorce yet. It's not a knock on frugality itself, but it would seem there is still much more to life than simply finances. Granted, it's a personal finance blog, so what did I expect, but if anything, it's a reminder to me that finance only goes so far. I can appreciate, though, that not having to worry about finances probably makes those other issues in life easier to deal with.

I also don't share Pete's enthusiasm. I find it somewhat dangerous, cynical as I am :-). Though I can admire it from time to time

Canít think of why it would be mentioned.  Is divorce an approach to agree/disagree with?

Based on what I've read, some people seem to think that he may have gotten divorced because his lifestyle is too "extreme" for the average person (his wife). There was lots of chatter about it when first happened with people feeling that his frugality may have played a part. People get divorced all the time, and money is often cited as a stress factor for a marriage, so I'm not sure what it matters overall. I can think of a couple of other FIRE bloggers who are also divorced, and I'm not sure if people hold it against them.

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #77 on: June 25, 2020, 12:43:24 PM »
On the serious side I agree with many previous posters that going without health insurance in the USA is a bad idea.

On a less serious note, I had to disagree with MMM's post many years ago about cleaning products breaking the budget.  Cleaning is one of my hobbies and brings me great satisfaction.

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #78 on: June 25, 2020, 12:52:58 PM »
On a less serious note, I had to disagree with MMM's post many years ago about cleaning products breaking the budget.  Cleaning is one of my hobbies and brings me great satisfaction.
This one I don't quite get.  One gallon of Odoban costs twelve bucks and dilutes down to enough household cleaner to last something like a year for us, and we have nine dogs in the house. Knockoff Magic Erasers cost eight bucks for 50 on Amazon, and that'll last all year too.  Throw in some laundry detergent and I think that's our "cleaning" budget for a year.

Surely for someone more sane, they would go ever farther.

bluebelle

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #79 on: June 25, 2020, 01:12:04 PM »

Which is also why I've never considered myself a true Mustachian, because I want waaaaay too soft a lifestyle.
this is me..........we live way beneath our means, but we still spend much more than we 'need' to, and I'm okay with that.   
« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 01:17:31 PM by bluebelle »

kite

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #80 on: June 25, 2020, 01:13:52 PM »
Sometimes I forget the blog exists. I have the forum bookmarked.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the divorce yet. It's not a knock on frugality itself, but it would seem there is still much more to life than simply finances. Granted, it's a personal finance blog, so what did I expect, but if anything, it's a reminder to me that finance only goes so far. I can appreciate, though, that not having to worry about finances probably makes those other issues in life easier to deal with.

I also don't share Pete's enthusiasm. I find it somewhat dangerous, cynical as I am :-). Though I can admire it from time to time

Canít think of why it would be mentioned.  Is divorce an approach to agree/disagree with?

Based on what I've read, some people seem to think that he may have gotten divorced because his lifestyle is too "extreme" for the average person (his wife). There was lots of chatter about it when first happened with people feeling that his frugality may have played a part. People get divorced all the time, and money is often cited as a stress factor for a marriage, so I'm not sure what it matters overall. I can think of a couple of other FIRE bloggers who are also divorced, and I'm not sure if people hold it against them.
Glad I missed that speculation.  Canít wrap my head around being so invested in why someone elseís relationship came to an end.  It makes sense if itís your own parents and it changes your daily life and where you live, then you are entitled to feelings and strong opinions.  But if itís not my marriage, itís not my place to even have a reason to Ďhold it against themí or to have any information.   

bluebelle

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #81 on: June 25, 2020, 01:16:23 PM »
I recall a blog post somewhere where he talked about canola oil being a great snack and that he just takes a swig when he's hungry and it's a snack that costs like $0.01. Nope nope nope.

There's a difference between frugal and cheap. Having canola oil as your snack of choice because of the cost is just cheap.

I think that was olive oil.
This is were I really diverge from MMM.   I remember reading the blog where he was advocating adding OO to the diet just to get the appropriate number of calories......not my thing.   I don't live to eat, but I sure as heck don't want to just eat to live.   There is pleasure in a good meal.    If you're happy on rice and beans with a little oil added for calories, fine.....but that doesn't interest me.   And that's okay.   I don't get pleasure out of restaurants, but I won't judge people who think it's a treat to go out to eat.   As long as they're making a conscious decision to do so and they factor it into their budget.

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #82 on: June 25, 2020, 01:19:42 PM »
one other thing that I had a problem with was MMM's assertion that you don't need to shower daily, and clothes do need to be washed that often.   I have an office job, but I still think I need a daily shower.   And on the days I venture out in the summer - damn I may need two showers.   Even if I don't stink or have someone around me to tell me I stink, I don't like the sticky feeling of my skin after a good sweat while out for a walk.

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #83 on: June 25, 2020, 01:22:43 PM »
...which I suspect may be a source of cognitive dissonance for Pete: He doesn't need such insurance due to his high level personal wealth (he's essentially extreme fat-FIRE), yet his blog advocates thin-FIRE. Transparency and honesty is the remedy, albeit with some loss of authority on the practical realities of thin-FIRE. This is where things like guest contributors who are truly thin-FIRE could add a voice of authenticity.

Agreed. I think he'd get a lot of credibility back for me if he stopped talking about himself and his lifestyle/businesses, and instead did more Case Studies and focused on things that are working for other people, or coaching other people to do better in their journey to FIRE.

I mean... don't even get me started on that building he bought in his town, renovated, and basically created a Mustache-Bro Country Club (Sorry... MMM HQ?). None of the expenses of the Mustache-Bro Country Club are included in his personal expenses, because the Mustache-Bro Country Club is it's own separate entity, where the Bros can get together and brew beer, drink beer, play with tools, work on projects, work out, socialize, have parties. The Mustache Bro Country Club was bought and renovated with loose change that Pete found in between his couch cushions. Does the Mustache Bro Country Club run a profit? No. It's operated on a non profit basis. Does it break even? Who could say... its financials are never disclosed. And yet it manages to suck up all of Pete's hobby expenses. Like magic, they disappear from his personal budget.

Too bad you don't own a "non profit" Mustache Bro Country Club. You lowly peasants will need to have a budget line item for entertainment in your retirement budget.

I guess I got started after all.
Hah,  This is what I thought the year he had the house building expenses included.   If I recall, he excluded all expenses related to the house from personal expenses.

From my own personal experience, building a house and the associated costs take all your money for tools and materials, and takes all your hobby time, too.   Of course your personal expenses are low.

That year he also had less than $600 for fuel.  Even if they were using the construction van to group errands with house building errands, that was stunningly low for a family of 3.   So, I realized that there was still a whole lot of truth in the accounting.
------------------------------
My peeve is his personal use of marijuana.     That's it...  and it is a personal issue, not a MMM issue.

 I did not see the lack of insurance on the 2019 finances, but I have pretty much stopped reading the blog posts.

MMM is a marijuana user? 

bluebelle

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #84 on: June 25, 2020, 01:25:47 PM »

My peeve is his personal use of marijuana.     That's it...  and it is a personal issue, not a MMM issue.


MMM is a marijuana user?
as a side note - when is the US going to legalize it federally?  Isn't it legal in most states?   

sherr

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #85 on: June 25, 2020, 01:26:43 PM »
My peeve is his personal use of marijuana.     That's it...  and it is a personal issue, not a MMM issue.

MMM is a marijuana user?

Yes. Colorado is a legal state, and he has said that he enjoys the occasional smoke just like he does the occasional beer.

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #86 on: June 25, 2020, 01:28:11 PM »
Sometimes I forget the blog exists. I have the forum bookmarked.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the divorce yet. It's not a knock on frugality itself, but it would seem there is still much more to life than simply finances. Granted, it's a personal finance blog, so what did I expect, but if anything, it's a reminder to me that finance only goes so far. I can appreciate, though, that not having to worry about finances probably makes those other issues in life easier to deal with.

I also don't share Pete's enthusiasm. I find it somewhat dangerous, cynical as I am :-). Though I can admire it from time to time

Canít think of why it would be mentioned.  Is divorce an approach to agree/disagree with?

Based on what I've read, some people seem to think that he may have gotten divorced because his lifestyle is too "extreme" for the average person (his wife). There was lots of chatter about it when first happened with people feeling that his frugality may have played a part. People get divorced all the time, and money is often cited as a stress factor for a marriage, so I'm not sure what it matters overall. I can think of a couple of other FIRE bloggers who are also divorced, and I'm not sure if people hold it against them.
Pete clarified that he initiated the divorce, not his wife. 

ketchup

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #87 on: June 25, 2020, 01:32:47 PM »

My peeve is his personal use of marijuana.     That's it...  and it is a personal issue, not a MMM issue.


MMM is a marijuana user?
as a side note - when is the US going to legalize it federally?  Isn't it legal in most states?
I think it's legal in ten-ish states, but they're mostly big ones.  IL and MI were the last ones, taking effect at the beginning of this year.  A few more and there will be enough momentum for it to go federal, but hard to say exactly when that'll actually happen.

bluebelle

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #88 on: June 25, 2020, 01:51:47 PM »

My peeve is his personal use of marijuana.     That's it...  and it is a personal issue, not a MMM issue.


MMM is a marijuana user?
as a side note - when is the US going to legalize it federally?  Isn't it legal in most states?
I think it's legal in ten-ish states, but they're mostly big ones.  IL and MI were the last ones, taking effect at the beginning of this year.  A few more and there will be enough momentum for it to go federal, but hard to say exactly when that'll actually happen.
I thought it was legal in more states....but I mostly travel to California, so I have a more liberal view of the US I guess.

My doctor wanted to prescribe it for a chronic pain condition.....nope, big brother is watching and I need to be able to enter the US for work.   And I want to keep my trusted traveler status, so no, not going to use it.   

OtherJen

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #89 on: June 25, 2020, 02:29:33 PM »
one other thing that I had a problem with was MMM's assertion that you don't need to shower daily, and clothes do need to be washed that often.   I have an office job, but I still think I need a daily shower.   And on the days I venture out in the summer - damn I may need two showers.   Even if I don't stink or have someone around me to tell me I stink, I don't like the sticky feeling of my skin after a good sweat while out for a walk.

Ah, the joys of living in the Great Lakes region in July and August. Yeah, I also rolled my eyes a bit at someone who lives in Colorado claiming that none of us need to shower or wash our clothes so often.

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #90 on: June 25, 2020, 02:33:53 PM »

My peeve is his personal use of marijuana.     That's it...  and it is a personal issue, not a MMM issue.


MMM is a marijuana user?
as a side note - when is the US going to legalize it federally?  Isn't it legal in most states?

Hahahaha... you've just opened a legal can of worms.  Several states have various levels of "legal", from medicinal to adult recreational.  It's still a controlled substance for all states, insomuch that an 8 year old cannot legally purchase it.
But it gets weirder, so while  - say - California allows recreational use and there are pot distilleries all over the state, it's still on the books as a federally controlled substance under the Controlled Substance Act.  So it's STILL illegal to have, buy, sell etc. in California from a federal standpoint, even though it's legal by state law.  And then you go further down the rabbit hole... under Obama the DEA halted prosecuting marijuana posession charges unless it was linked to somehting more severe (e.g. money laundering, organized crime).  AND the constuttion makes it very difficult for the federal government to actually enforce and prosecute someone unless that person (or his/her money/goods) crosses state lines.  So even if the DEA wants to prosecute a California resident for smoking weed inside California... it largely can't without the explicit approval of the California DA.

As to your broader question... there are still some very strong pockets of America that are very anti marijuana legalization, for a variety of reasons. 

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #91 on: June 25, 2020, 03:12:22 PM »
This has been discussed extensively. There is even a sticky on the 4% ďruleĒ plus dozens of parts on CAPE, past and current valuations, SORR and the like.
The bottom line is that no one should blindly follow a 4% strategy, and in reality no one does. That said, your underlying assumption that a 4% WR is ďdangerousĒ today is both a misunderstanding of what Pete ( and others) are suggesting and not well supported by historical or impartial analysis

I do not see a sticky like that on any of the boards. Maybe the one you're thinking of was unstickied?

It sounds like you're saying the consensus on the forum is that "25x expenses => quit work" is a bad idea. If so, that's good to hear! The problem is, it's the blog posts, not this forum, that most people are going to see. For instance, I've been a pretty hardcore follower of the blog since early 2016, but only recently paid the forum much attention. The blog's main SWR post is titled "The 4% Rule: The Easy Answer to ďHow Much Do I Need for Retirement?", is all-in on the 4% rule (even considering 5% with caveats), and dismisses concerns with the trinity study's applicability with flexibility suggestions, one of which is literally "go back to work" (i.e. pretend a failed run was actually a success). So, not at all a misunderstanding of what he's saying, at least in the snippet that is going to reach the most people.

Now, I'm afraid I have to complain about your communication style for a second! 'Assumption' doesn't describe the conclusion of a bunch of analysis; assumptions are inputs to reasoning, not the output. Calling it that makes it sound like you're trying to preemptively shut down the discussion by using 'assumption' in the pejorative sense of not well thought out. With that out of the way: if you don't think a 4% trigger is currently dangerous (which I'm personally defining as a few percent chance of people finding out that their FIRE plan isn't going to work after being a couple of years separated from their career), is there an effective refutation of EarlyRetirementNow's SWR series somewhere out there that I'm not aware of? Of all I've seen, it is THE definitive impartial historical analysis, and its most basic conclusion is that in conditions like the present, a 4% trigger has a real chance of trashing your financial life when trying a ~60year retirement.

bluebelle

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #92 on: June 25, 2020, 03:29:24 PM »
one other thing that I had a problem with was MMM's assertion that you don't need to shower daily, and clothes do need to be washed that often.   I have an office job, but I still think I need a daily shower.   And on the days I venture out in the summer - damn I may need two showers.   Even if I don't stink or have someone around me to tell me I stink, I don't like the sticky feeling of my skin after a good sweat while out for a walk.

Ah, the joys of living in the Great Lakes region in July and August. Yeah, I also rolled my eyes a bit at someone who lives in Colorado claiming that none of us need to shower or wash our clothes so often.
I just went and looked - Boulder, CO is 84įF right now - so warmer than Toronto.....since Pete does alot of physical labour and bicycling, I'm thinking a nightly shower should be a necessity....but hey, I don't have to get close to him

As an aside, there have been a few people that have reminded me that I'm within 6' of them just by their smell.....the one thing I am enjoying about physical distancing - not getting too close to folks with different hygiene standards than mine!

OtherJen

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #93 on: June 25, 2020, 03:33:33 PM »
one other thing that I had a problem with was MMM's assertion that you don't need to shower daily, and clothes do need to be washed that often.   I have an office job, but I still think I need a daily shower.   And on the days I venture out in the summer - damn I may need two showers.   Even if I don't stink or have someone around me to tell me I stink, I don't like the sticky feeling of my skin after a good sweat while out for a walk.

Ah, the joys of living in the Great Lakes region in July and August. Yeah, I also rolled my eyes a bit at someone who lives in Colorado claiming that none of us need to shower or wash our clothes so often.
I just went and looked - Boulder, CO is 84įF right now - so warmer than Toronto.....since Pete does alot of physical labour and bicycling, I'm thinking a nightly shower should be a necessity....but hey, I don't have to get close to him

As an aside, there have been a few people that have reminded me that I'm within 6' of them just by their smell.....the one thing I am enjoying about physical distancing - not getting too close to folks with different hygiene standards than mine!

I was actually referring to the humidity level (which is currently an extremely comfortable 22% in Boulder). Detroit and Toronto are on peninsulas and are nearly always more humid. Daily showers seem much more necessary when the temperature is above 90F and humidity is above 60%.

bluebelle

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #94 on: June 25, 2020, 03:36:35 PM »
one other thing that I had a problem with was MMM's assertion that you don't need to shower daily, and clothes do need to be washed that often.   I have an office job, but I still think I need a daily shower.   And on the days I venture out in the summer - damn I may need two showers.   Even if I don't stink or have someone around me to tell me I stink, I don't like the sticky feeling of my skin after a good sweat while out for a walk.

Ah, the joys of living in the Great Lakes region in July and August. Yeah, I also rolled my eyes a bit at someone who lives in Colorado claiming that none of us need to shower or wash our clothes so often.
I just went and looked - Boulder, CO is 84įF right now - so warmer than Toronto.....since Pete does alot of physical labour and bicycling, I'm thinking a nightly shower should be a necessity....but hey, I don't have to get close to him

As an aside, there have been a few people that have reminded me that I'm within 6' of them just by their smell.....the one thing I am enjoying about physical distancing - not getting too close to folks with different hygiene standards than mine!

I was actually referring to the humidity level (which is currently an extremely comfortable 22% in Boulder). Detroit and Toronto are on peninsulas and are nearly always more humid. Daily showers seem much more necessary when the temperature is above 90F and humidity is above 60%.
True.....not sure about Detroit, but Toronto temperatures are given along with the 'feels like' humidex temperature.   Just like the windchill temperature in the winter.   

slappy

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #95 on: June 25, 2020, 05:08:19 PM »
one other thing that I had a problem with was MMM's assertion that you don't need to shower daily, and clothes do need to be washed that often.   I have an office job, but I still think I need a daily shower.   And on the days I venture out in the summer - damn I may need two showers.   Even if I don't stink or have someone around me to tell me I stink, I don't like the sticky feeling of my skin after a good sweat while out for a walk.

Ah, the joys of living in the Great Lakes region in July and August. Yeah, I also rolled my eyes a bit at someone who lives in Colorado claiming that none of us need to shower or wash our clothes so often.
I just went and looked - Boulder, CO is 84įF right now - so warmer than Toronto.....since Pete does alot of physical labour and bicycling, I'm thinking a nightly shower should be a necessity....but hey, I don't have to get close to him

As an aside, there have been a few people that have reminded me that I'm within 6' of them just by their smell.....the one thing I am enjoying about physical distancing - not getting too close to folks with different hygiene standards than mine!

As mentioned above, he is single now, so maybe he isn't too concerned about the showers. haha

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #96 on: June 25, 2020, 05:09:26 PM »

OtherJen

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #97 on: June 25, 2020, 05:17:51 PM »
one other thing that I had a problem with was MMM's assertion that you don't need to shower daily, and clothes do need to be washed that often.   I have an office job, but I still think I need a daily shower.   And on the days I venture out in the summer - damn I may need two showers.   Even if I don't stink or have someone around me to tell me I stink, I don't like the sticky feeling of my skin after a good sweat while out for a walk.

Ah, the joys of living in the Great Lakes region in July and August. Yeah, I also rolled my eyes a bit at someone who lives in Colorado claiming that none of us need to shower or wash our clothes so often.
I just went and looked - Boulder, CO is 84įF right now - so warmer than Toronto.....since Pete does alot of physical labour and bicycling, I'm thinking a nightly shower should be a necessity....but hey, I don't have to get close to him

As an aside, there have been a few people that have reminded me that I'm within 6' of them just by their smell.....the one thing I am enjoying about physical distancing - not getting too close to folks with different hygiene standards than mine!

I was actually referring to the humidity level (which is currently an extremely comfortable 22% in Boulder). Detroit and Toronto are on peninsulas and are nearly always more humid. Daily showers seem much more necessary when the temperature is above 90F and humidity is above 60%.
True.....not sure about Detroit, but Toronto temperatures are given along with the 'feels like' humidex temperature.   Just like the windchill temperature in the winter.

Detroit and Toronto have similar weather, so we also have heat index/humidex and wind chill reports.

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #98 on: June 25, 2020, 05:40:19 PM »
Man changed my life! I donít disagree with any of his approach because itís the way he wants to live his life and his opinion on things. Like any opinion, I take what works for me and leave the rest. I happen to agree with most of his perspectives but I donít have the will or desire to emulate, and thatís ok. His thinking challenged my own and what I thought I needed or wanted. Heís one of the few people that has actually had a profound influence on my life as an adult because I simply did not get personal finance before. Heís out here living his literal best life, while truly caring about the world around him and the people in it. Thatís admirable to me. Heís backed it up with actions, not complaining on someoneís forum.

This pretty much sums it up for me! I discovered the blog Dec 2011, drank the Kool-Aid and retired Oct 2018. I've never taken what he says completely literally eg Face-punching etc, and found his colourful turn of phrase hilarious eg hair on fire, complainypants etc etc. I don't bike and I'm not even directly invested in index funds, but I don't think that makes me less mustachian.

As someone who has hung around on this forum since 2012, I also agree with Nords. There is a life cycle to these things. I loved the early days of this forum, read all the posts and we had some great discussions. A few years later I was mourning the loss of such a personal group...numbers of posts and posters rapidly increased, and some great threads were destroyed by some self-opinionated argumentative types. These days I've found a niche in the forums, with folks whose company I enjoy. I occasionally venture more widely, but generally limit that due to time constraints, and a desire to keep my blood pressure in normal range.

mrs sideways

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
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  • Posts: 96
Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #99 on: June 25, 2020, 06:32:40 PM »
I thought it was always unfair that he got to shuffle all personal projects and hobbies off his annual balance sheet under the guise of "it's for business".

And dude, Teslas are NOT self-driving cars.

Plus there was that time where, in a post's comments, someone defending traveling in order to see a solar eclipse. His response was along the lines of "I can see the eclipse for free on YouTube!", which is... like, what you would write if you were making a MMM parody post.

That said, I still miss him posting more often. What I always got out of the blog was to question everything. Do I really want it? Do I really need it? Isn't there a better way to spend the money? I needed that constant poke, push, reminder, whatever you want to call it, to police myself and my spending habits. I keep looking for another blog or podcast to give that regular checkup.