In praise of the 3 bedroom 1 bathroom house.

[YttriumNitrate]

Having no fan should be illegal.  There are building codes for that sort of shit now thank god.  I've also upgraded the fans in my key go-to bathrooms to maintain as much negative pressure as possible.  Your ears should pop when you fire that baby up.

Like a pull-start rope hanging from the ceiling? What brand motor? Briggs & Stratton? Husqvarna?

Briggs & Stratton and Husqvarna are Busch league. Go with Pratt & Whitney. Their V2500 model is quite good.

[Cranky]

My house is pretty small, so everything, including the main bathroom is really “right off the kitchen”. LOL

I was motivated to haul out the step stool and inspect my bathroom for dust this morning, though!

[chouchouu]

OP here. I'm in Australia so perhaps it's different here but new builds are notoriously poor construction. Australians are big fans of McMansions and its genuinely difficult to find new builds with basic things such as cross ventilation and decent eaves.

It seems the various systems of a house (electrical, roof, plumbing, etc.) generally follow bathtub curves of varying durations. New construction is always going to be problematic because a myriad of things are in their early failure period.

Well my issue is generally design principles. Every house built pre war had cross ventilation, they all had eaves. Nowadays its really hard to find new builds built with these basic principles unless they are architect designs. They're all built to be temperature controlled with aircon and use up a lot of energy because they ignore basic design. They also tend to be built with the garage taking up half the front of the house so they're ugly as anything.

[chouchouu]

A large portion of old housing stock in my area are in the old 3-1 configuration. However do people with those houses cope? I can't believe I read through this entire thread.

This is still MMM right? WTF.

We're cheap, gross bastards who don't mind the smell of each other's shit while we shower. Haven't you read the thread???

Honestly, it's given me a good laugh.

I find it funny how each side can find the other gross.
The multi bath folks can perceive the single bath people as gross for having one bathroom that people have to
-wait uncomfortably while urgently needing to go
-burst in while the person is showering
-piss in a bottle
-have guests use a bathroom strewn with personal items
-etc

Meanwhile, the single bath folks may perceive the multi bath people as
-highly irregular in their daily ablutions
-prone to oddly urgent bodily functions and should probably request a colonoscopy from their MD (applies only to those who aren't already diagnosed with severe digestive problems, obviously)
-having very messy bathrooms if they aren't presentable for guests

Then there's the cleaning habits.
Are the "it takes so long to clean" people taking that long because they're meticulous or because their family is filthy?

Are the "it only takes 10 minutes" people never actually cleaning thoroughly, or is it so quick because everyone in the family has a habit of wiping every surface every time they use it, so nothing builds up?

Regardless, this thread about housing costs turned into a hilarious cultural essay on bathroom behaviours.

It is interesting. I also find it bizarre how line washing is apparently banned in many neighbourhoods in the US because it looks too "poor!" I watched an episode of house hunters where an American couple couldn't work out why the laundry room in Australia was located on the ground floor leading into the backyard. I've spoken to Americans about line drying and they'll whine about space. Which is interesting because people all over the world in apartments line dry their clothes and never have these issues. Even in our tiny studio we had a drying rack. It's no wonder they use more energy per capita than anyone else when they insist on machine drying their clothes. Considering the environmental implications I actually find it rather horrific and unsustainable.

[pegleglolita]

Regarding two sinks in one bathroom, that’s a disgusting, opulent trend that hopefully is going away.

As a Neat Person who is married to a Not-Neat Person (I quite literally have to draw a Brady Bunch line down the double sink to separate his filth from my clean), DISAGREE.  Double sink makes for a happy marriage for us.  Otherwise, I would be constantly forced to clean up his mess so that my sink was neat, which would undoubtedly cause me to be filled with homicidal stabby rage.  Double sinks are brilliant. 

[dougules]

A large portion of old housing stock in my area are in the old 3-1 configuration. However do people with those houses cope? I can't believe I read through this entire thread.

This is still MMM right? WTF.

We're cheap, gross bastards who don't mind the smell of each other's shit while we shower. Haven't you read the thread???

Honestly, it's given me a good laugh.

I find it funny how each side can find the other gross.
The multi bath folks can perceive the single bath people as gross for having one bathroom that people have to
-wait uncomfortably while urgently needing to go
-burst in while the person is showering
-piss in a bottle
-have guests use a bathroom strewn with personal items
-etc

Meanwhile, the single bath folks may perceive the multi bath people as
-highly irregular in their daily ablutions
-prone to oddly urgent bodily functions and should probably request a colonoscopy from their MD (applies only to those who aren't already diagnosed with severe digestive problems, obviously)
-having very messy bathrooms if they aren't presentable for guests

Then there's the cleaning habits.
Are the "it takes so long to clean" people taking that long because they're meticulous or because their family is filthy?

Are the "it only takes 10 minutes" people never actually cleaning thoroughly, or is it so quick because everyone in the family has a habit of wiping every surface every time they use it, so nothing builds up?

Regardless, this thread about housing costs turned into a hilarious cultural essay on bathroom behaviours.

It is interesting. I also find it bizarre how line washing is apparently banned in many neighbourhoods in the US because it looks too "poor!" I watched an episode of house hunters where an American couple couldn't work out why the laundry room in Australia was located on the ground floor leading into the backyard. I've spoken to Americans about line drying and they'll whine about space. Which is interesting because people all over the world in apartments line dry their clothes and never have these issues. Even in our tiny studio we had a drying rack. It's no wonder they use more energy per capita than anyone else when they insist on machine drying their clothes. Considering the environmental implications I actually find it rather horrific and unsustainable.

They whine about space?  Most Americans have huge houses with huge yards.  Our older house actually came with a clothes line out back but we took it down because we have such a big laundry room we can just hang everything inside where our crazy weather isn't a factor. 

Also, aside from the environmental impact, drying machines wear clothes out faster. 

[Cranky]

Actually, people whine that they don’t have time to hang out laundry, and it wouldn’t get dry anyway because it is too cold or humid or shaded or birds might poop on it or they have allergies and will die.

(I really love hanging out laundry.)

[chouchouu]

A large portion of old housing stock in my area are in the old 3-1 configuration. However do people with those houses cope? I can't believe I read through this entire thread.

This is still MMM right? WTF.

We're cheap, gross bastards who don't mind the smell of each other's shit while we shower. Haven't you read the thread???

Honestly, it's given me a good laugh.

I find it funny how each side can find the other gross.
The multi bath folks can perceive the single bath people as gross for having one bathroom that people have to
-wait uncomfortably while urgently needing to go
-burst in while the person is showering
-piss in a bottle
-have guests use a bathroom strewn with personal items
-etc

Meanwhile, the single bath folks may perceive the multi bath people as
-highly irregular in their daily ablutions
-prone to oddly urgent bodily functions and should probably request a colonoscopy from their MD (applies only to those who aren't already diagnosed with severe digestive problems, obviously)
-having very messy bathrooms if they aren't presentable for guests

Then there's the cleaning habits.
Are the "it takes so long to clean" people taking that long because they're meticulous or because their family is filthy?

Are the "it only takes 10 minutes" people never actually cleaning thoroughly, or is it so quick because everyone in the family has a habit of wiping every surface every time they use it, so nothing builds up?

Regardless, this thread about housing costs turned into a hilarious cultural essay on bathroom behaviours.

It is interesting. I also find it bizarre how line washing is apparently banned in many neighbourhoods in the US because it looks too "poor!" I watched an episode of house hunters where an American couple couldn't work out why the laundry room in Australia was located on the ground floor leading into the backyard. I've spoken to Americans about line drying and they'll whine about space. Which is interesting because people all over the world in apartments line dry their clothes and never have these issues. Even in our tiny studio we had a drying rack. It's no wonder they use more energy per capita than anyone else when they insist on machine drying their clothes. Considering the environmental implications I actually find it rather horrific and unsustainable.

They whine about space?  Most Americans have huge houses with huge yards.  Our older house actually came with a clothes line out back but we took it down because we have such a big laundry room we can just hang everything inside where our crazy weather isn't a factor. 

Also, aside from the environmental impact, drying machines wear clothes out faster.

Our studio in London was so small we used to take the bin outside to make room for guests to sit at our dining table. So it's kind of comical when they complain about not having enough space. I have tall square drying racks from IKEA that each take up approx 1 sq metre and take a load of washing each.

[OtherJen]

Actually, people whine that they don’t have time to hang out laundry, and it wouldn’t get dry anyway because it is too cold or humid or shaded or birds might poop on it or they have allergies and will die.

(I really love hanging out laundry.)

I have a tiny (by US standards) house and still can hang an entire full load of laundry on various racks in my house. This works much better in winter than in summer, as sometimes it truly is too humid in August to get things to air-dry before they turn mildewy (we don't have central AC and wet fabric seems to mildew within hours during the worst of summer).

[big_owl]

Actually, people whine that they don’t have time to hang out laundry, and it wouldn’t get dry anyway because it is too cold or humid or shaded or birds might poop on it or they have allergies and will die.

(I really love hanging out laundry.)

When we first discovered MMM back in 2013 I believe, we went in full Monty.  One of those things was not using our dryer and instead using a dryer rack inside the house (due to humidity and/or cold temps most of the year isn't conducive to drying outside around here).  We did it for a while but ultimately didn't notice any change in our electric bill and the clothes ended up stiff and wrinkly.  Plus it was an all-day event to dry the clothes. 

I ended up just buying a combo washer/dryer unit from LG.  Frankly that thing is a game changer.  You can put dirty clothes in when you leave for work in the morning and then when you come home voila, clean and dry clothes!

[Cranky]

Actually, people whine that they don’t have time to hang out laundry, and it wouldn’t get dry anyway because it is too cold or humid or shaded or birds might poop on it or they have allergies and will die.

(I really love hanging out laundry.)

I have a tiny (by US standards) house and still can hang an entire full load of laundry on various racks in my house. This works much better in winter than in summer, as sometimes it truly is too humid in August to get things to air-dry before they turn mildewy (we don't have central AC and wet fabric seems to mildew within hours during the worst of summer).

People who live in Florida chronically complain that they can’t hang laundry outside because it won’t dry.

I grew up in Florida. We didn’t own a dryer and yet... we did have dry clothes. I lived in Miam and washed cloth diapers and didn’t own a dryer. LOL

I hang stuff in the basement in the winter and it dries so fast because the house is so miserably dry once the furnace is running.

[OtherJen]

Actually, people whine that they don’t have time to hang out laundry, and it wouldn’t get dry anyway because it is too cold or humid or shaded or birds might poop on it or they have allergies and will die.

(I really love hanging out laundry.)

I have a tiny (by US standards) house and still can hang an entire full load of laundry on various racks in my house. This works much better in winter than in summer, as sometimes it truly is too humid in August to get things to air-dry before they turn mildewy (we don't have central AC and wet fabric seems to mildew within hours during the worst of summer).

People who live in Florida chronically complain that they can’t hang laundry outside because it won’t dry.

I grew up in Florida. We didn’t own a dryer and yet... we did have dry clothes. I lived in Miam and washed cloth diapers and didn’t own a dryer. LOL

I hang stuff in the basement in the winter and it dries so fast because the house is so miserably dry once the furnace is running.

No basement here. Our towels (kitchen and bath) don’t ever dry in August. I hate the smell of mildew so all towels and various surfaces get bleached. I’ve even had to bleach my bras because they don’t always air-dry fast enough to prevent mildew. Winter is great for indoor clothes drying, although my skin dries out just as quickly.

[Milizard]

Do you people who can hang up an entire load of laundry to dry have enormous drying racks or what?  Even at my parents house, with 3 parallel lines running the length of a large room in the basement, I could barely get all the clothes hung. I had to scrunch them together or overlap a bit. I still hang dry a lot more than most, but I struggle just to get all my undies to fit on the drying rack at once, and that's maybe 1/4 of a load.

[Villanelle]

Do you people who can hang up an entire load of laundry to dry have enormous drying racks or what?  Even at my parents house, with 3 parallel lines running the length of a large room in the basement, I could barely get all the clothes hung. I had to scrunch them together or overlap a bit. I still hang dry a lot more than most, but I struggle just to get all my undies to fit on the drying rack at once, and that's maybe 1/4 of a load.

[use2betrix]

I couldn’t picture a need for a second bathroom except for children, roommates, or guests. For my wife and I, we have a second bathroom in our apartment for the first time, and only really gets used for guests and to give our dog a bath, which he could easily do in our bath.

My wife and I shower together 90% of the time. We do have two sinks which I would say is nice as we get ready for bed at the same time.

We rarely both ever have to go to the bathroom so bad at the same time that two toilets are necessary.

[ysette9]

It was fine when it was just the two of us. With guests, kids, anyone else really, the second toilet is clutch.

[Milizard]

Do you people who can hang up an entire load of laundry to dry have enormous drying racks or what?  Even at my parents house, with 3 parallel lines running the length of a large room in the basement, I could barely get all the clothes hung. I had to scrunch them together or overlap a bit. I still hang dry a lot more than most, but I struggle just to get all my undies to fit on the drying rack at once, and that's maybe 1/4 of a load.

It looks like that would work well for undies and socks, but not so well for blouses, slacks, bath towels, and sheets.

[Montecarlo]

Actually, people whine that they don’t have time to hang out laundry, and it wouldn’t get dry anyway because it is too cold or humid or shaded or birds might poop on it or they have allergies and will die.

(I really love hanging out laundry.)

I lol’d

[kei te pai]

Its great to have this forum helping us all to grapple with the really important issues of our age.

[YttriumNitrate]

Do you people who can hang up an entire load of laundry to dry have enormous drying racks or what?  Even at my parents house, with 3 parallel lines running the length of a large room in the basement, I could barely get all the clothes hung. I had to scrunch them together or overlap a bit. I still hang dry a lot more than most, but I struggle just to get all my undies to fit on the drying rack at once, and that's maybe 1/4 of a load.

I've got two washers, so sometimes I hang two full loads of laundry up at once. I made up a drying system using nautical cleats and polypropylene line. The cleats are mounted on opposite sides of the room, and on every cleat there is wound a length of approximately the width of the room. When closed need to be dried, the ropes are stretched out and tied to cleat on the other side. If you wait for a sale, you can usually get the cleats free after rebate at Menards, and 100 feet of 3/8th inch rope for $2.  Assuming you already have some screws somewhere, you should be able to make an awesome drying system with 200 feet of space for about $4, and your laundry room will have a cool nautical theme when not in use.

[Dicey]

A large portion of old housing stock in my area are in the old 3-1 configuration. However do people with those houses cope? I can't believe I read through this entire thread.

This is still MMM right? WTF.

Once you hit FIRE, you get to do "WTF" you want. Like living in a clown house with 3.5 bathrooms...

Of course. You can also do whatever you want before FIRE, but that doesn't mean it's in line with Mustachianism. I'm pretty sure MMM has never written an article about splurging on material luxury once you have excess funds. Luxury "because I can" is pretty much the opposite of the blog's goal.

Re: bolded - You're kidding, right?

[Linea_Norway]

Those of you who have a bathroom without ventilation, don't you just install a ventilator? There are even ones that measure humidity and turn themselves on and off based on that. Or just leave the bathroom door (partly) open after taking a shower.

About line drying. I have been line drying on my balcony for decades, in the summer half of the year. But in my current house, I have once gotten a tic in my leg from laying in bed. When I mentions this at work, my coworker asked me if I line dried. Yes, on the second floor. But that could still open for bugs. I should have shaken the dry sheets thoroughly before taking them in.

Sometimes, when I feel I have time and energy for it, I also dry line clothes in the bathroom on a clothes rack. Some cotton things take a very long time to dry, but other materials go easily. Blouses I dry over a clothes hanger, so that they don't need ironing afterwards. But when I'm lazy, I used the tumble dry.

In our previous home we had a double sink, which is great when you want to brush your teeth at the same time. Our current home doesn't have that and DH and I need to watch each other during the brushing and plan for who is first to dive for the sink to flush or mouth. My total brushing process takes about 5 minutes, first normal brushing and then with an in between brush. And DH often doesn't wait for me to be totally finished.

-1 to showering and peeing at the same time. I do walk through our bathroom sometimes when DH is washing himself (after knocking). But we leave each other alone when on the toilet.
About these spouses that use a LOT of time... Could it be that they have digestive problems? Do they eat enough fibers and drink enough water? Occasionally when I don't drink enough, I also get more trouble and use longer time. So I think there could be an obvious reason for it. Those spouses would benefit from a smoother process themselves.

[Hula Hoop]

Do you people who can hang up an entire load of laundry to dry have enormous drying racks or what?  Even at my parents house, with 3 parallel lines running the length of a large room in the basement, I could barely get all the clothes hung. I had to scrunch them together or overlap a bit. I still hang dry a lot more than most, but I struggle just to get all my undies to fit on the drying rack at once, and that's maybe 1/4 of a load.

@Milizard We have one normal sized drying rack and two clothes lines outside one of our windows.  We also have lines to dry sheets on the roof of our apartment building but we're usually too lazy to go up there.  We have a 5 kilo front loading washing machine and I find that there is usually more than enough space on the drying rack plus clothes lines outside our window to dry two full loads including sheets and towels.  Maybe you just need to learn how to hang up clothes properly? Are you folding your sheets efficiently for drying? Or maybe one of those nifty contraptions above for your undies would be good?

I'm American but grew up in a nineteenth century apartment that still had a drying rack that you could hoist up above your head with a pulley in the kitchen.  I would never go back to using a dryer - apart from the fact that clothes wear out more quickly, it's also horrible for the environment.

Re mildew - I've never heard of this being a problem.  How do you know that your clothes have mildew?  Can you see it?  During summer it gets very humid here but if we put our stuff on the roof drying racks in the sun everything is dry in a couple of hours.  But even if we dry our clothes inside with the windows open it takes less than a day to dry. 

[Cranky]

I have two drying racks (both from the thrift store) and a couple of those sock hanger things and a bar across a doorway where I hang things on hangers.

I do run sheets and towels through the dryer in the winter - they are just so bulky. I actual prefer the crisp feel of line dried towels, though.

[Davnasty]

A large portion of old housing stock in my area are in the old 3-1 configuration. However do people with those houses cope? I can't believe I read through this entire thread.

This is still MMM right? WTF.

Once you hit FIRE, you get to do "WTF" you want. Like living in a clown house with 3.5 bathrooms...

Of course. You can also do whatever you want before FIRE, but that doesn't mean it's in line with Mustachianism. I'm pretty sure MMM has never written an article about splurging on material luxury once you have excess funds. Luxury "because I can" is pretty much the opposite of the blog's goal.

Re: bolded - You're kidding, right?

Not at all. If you're suggesting that he doesn't always practice what he preaches, well sure. but that doesn't mean that buying whatever you want post FIRE is suddenly mustachian.

Not to mention Accolay's comment didn't seem to be directed at people like yourself who are comfortably FIRE'd and acknowledge that 3.5 bathrooms is clownish. What's surprising about this thread is the people arguing that 2 bathrooms is a necessity rather than a luxury, particularly those without a unique situation like IBS.

[Metalcat]

A large portion of old housing stock in my area are in the old 3-1 configuration. However do people with those houses cope? I can't believe I read through this entire thread.

This is still MMM right? WTF.

Once you hit FIRE, you get to do "WTF" you want. Like living in a clown house with 3.5 bathrooms...

Of course. You can also do whatever you want before FIRE, but that doesn't mean it's in line with Mustachianism. I'm pretty sure MMM has never written an article about splurging on material luxury once you have excess funds. Luxury "because I can" is pretty much the opposite of the blog's goal.

Re: bolded - You're kidding, right?

Not at all. If you're suggesting that he doesn't always practice what he preaches, well sure. but that doesn't mean that buying whatever you want post FIRE is suddenly mustachian.

Not to mention Accolay's comment didn't seem to be directed at people like yourself who are comfortably FIRE'd and acknowledge that 3.5 bathrooms is clownish. What's surprising about this thread is the people arguing that 2 bathrooms is a necessity rather than a luxury, particularly those without a unique situation like IBS.

I don't take issue with anyone having multiple bathrooms as a deal breaker *for themselves*, but all of the posts insisting it should be a necessity for others is bizarre, especially after so many of us indicated that it's a non issue.

Insisting others should pay a huge premium for housing for features they don't feel they need is definitely non Mustachian.

[eljefe-speaks]

I don't care about en suites or double sinks (what's up with those, anyway? I don't want anyone else in the bathroom at the same time even if they're just brushing their teeth!) but you can rip my second bathroom from my cold dead hands.

I'm lusting after double sinks for ease of cleaning after beard trimming. My wife has all sorts of bottles around the sink, and when I trim my beard the hair goes every where and it's a pain to clean up. I want a dedicated beard sink with nothing around it, and I wants it now!!

I have a solution for you! When I trim, I lay out a T-Shirt on the counter, covering the sink. After you're done trimming, go outside and whip the shirt around, throw it in the wash. Easiest cleanup ever.

[Villanelle]

Do you people who can hang up an entire load of laundry to dry have enormous drying racks or what?  Even at my parents house, with 3 parallel lines running the length of a large room in the basement, I could barely get all the clothes hung. I had to scrunch them together or overlap a bit. I still hang dry a lot more than most, but I struggle just to get all my undies to fit on the drying rack at once, and that's maybe 1/4 of a load.

It looks like that would work well for undies and socks, but not so well for blouses, slacks, bath towels, and sheets.

You mentioned that your rack is full from just undies alone.  This takes care of that, freeing up the rack for other things.  But actually, it works wonderfully for shirts and pants, too, and would be great for towels, though I usually put my towels in the drying.  you could manage sheets if it were hanging high enough that the sheet, when doubled over (both ends clipped a row or two apart) were off the ground.  It's exceptionally versatile and certainly useful for more than socks and undies. 

[Milizard]

Do you people who can hang up an entire load of laundry to dry have enormous drying racks or what?  Even at my parents house, with 3 parallel lines running the length of a large room in the basement, I could barely get all the clothes hung. I had to scrunch them together or overlap a bit. I still hang dry a lot more than most, but I struggle just to get all my undies to fit on the drying rack at once, and that's maybe 1/4 of a load.

@Milizard We have one normal sized drying rack and two clothes lines outside one of our windows.  We also have lines to dry sheets on the roof of our apartment building but we're usually too lazy to go up there.  We have a 5 kilo front loading washing machine and I find that there is usually more than enough space on the drying rack plus clothes lines outside our window to dry two full loads including sheets and towels.  Maybe you just need to learn how to hang up clothes properly? Are you folding your sheets efficiently for drying? Or maybe one of those nifty contraptions above for your undies would be good?

I'm American but grew up in a nineteenth century apartment that still had a drying rack that you could hoist up above your head with a pulley in the kitchen.  I would never go back to using a dryer - apart from the fact that clothes wear out more quickly, it's also horrible for the environment.

Re mildew - I've never heard of this being a problem.  How do you know that your clothes have mildew?  Can you see it?  During summer it gets very humid here but if we put our stuff on the roof drying racks in the sun everything is dry in a couple of hours.  But even if we dry our clothes inside with the windows open it takes less than a day to dry.

We'll, it's mostly just a question out of curiosity now. I don't live with my parents, and the basement in my current house is damp, while the washer and dryer are up on the main floor. (I'm just going to continue to do what works for my current situation, which is a hybrid.) I do wonder how I'm supposedly improperly hanging sheets to dry. I drape them over the line in a way that they don't touch the floor. If I were to fold and hang, I'd be able to hang twice as much with twice the drying time and nearly twice the work.  I mean, I did grow up in the 70's 80's with outside lines, so I do understand how it is done. When my mom's dryer broke in the winter, though, it sucked trying to dry everything on the lines inside.  I do lots of laundry, and need things to dry within a day in order to keep up.

[zygote]

Those of you who have a bathroom without ventilation, don't you just install a ventilator? There are even ones that measure humidity and turn themselves on and off based on that. Or just leave the bathroom door (partly) open after taking a shower.

I would absolutely install ventilation if I owned, but I rent. We've always left the bathroom door open after taking a shower and it never helped much. I finally broke down this summer and bought a screen insert for the bathroom window so we could leave that open too (our windows don't have screens and I don't want bugs, birds, or the city grime to come inside). That has helped more.

-1 to showering and peeing at the same time. I do walk through our bathroom sometimes when DH is washing himself (after knocking). But we leave each other alone when on the toilet.
About these spouses that use a LOT of time... Could it be that they have digestive problems? Do they eat enough fibers and drink enough water? Occasionally when I don't drink enough, I also get more trouble and use longer time. So I think there could be an obvious reason for it. Those spouses would benefit from a smoother process themselves.

I suspect my wife would benefit from more fiber and more water, but she's not really interested in changing her diet. She likes what she likes. It's come up before for other reasons, but what can I do. It's not my body.

[OtherJen]

Do you people who can hang up an entire load of laundry to dry have enormous drying racks or what?  Even at my parents house, with 3 parallel lines running the length of a large room in the basement, I could barely get all the clothes hung. I had to scrunch them together or overlap a bit. I still hang dry a lot more than most, but I struggle just to get all my undies to fit on the drying rack at once, and that's maybe 1/4 of a load.

Re mildew - I've never heard of this being a problem.  How do you know that your clothes have mildew?  Can you see it?  During summer it gets very humid here but if we put our stuff on the roof drying racks in the sun everything is dry in a couple of hours.  But even if we dry our clothes inside with the windows open it takes less than a day to dry.

How do I know about the mildew? I can smell it. I'm glad that other people don't have this problem. Clearly I'm doing something wrong or there's something wrong with my house.

[partgypsy]

Those of you who have a bathroom without ventilation, don't you just install a ventilator? There are even ones that measure humidity and turn themselves on and off based on that. Or just leave the bathroom door (partly) open after taking a shower.

I would absolutely install ventilation if I owned, but I rent. We've always left the bathroom door open after taking a shower and it never helped much. I finally broke down this summer and bought a screen insert for the bathroom window so we could leave that open too (our windows don't have screens and I don't want bugs, birds, or the city grime to come inside). That has helped more.

-1 to showering and peeing at the same time. I do walk through our bathroom sometimes when DH is washing himself (after knocking). But we leave each other alone when on the toilet.
About these spouses that use a LOT of time... Could it be that they have digestive problems? Do they eat enough fibers and drink enough water? Occasionally when I don't drink enough, I also get more trouble and use longer time. So I think there could be an obvious reason for it. Those spouses would benefit from a smoother process themselves.

I suspect my wife would benefit from more fiber and more water, but she's not really interested in changing her diet. She likes what she likes. It's come up before for other reasons, but what can I do. It's not my body.

At least where I live, a bathroom has to have ventilation by a) a window you can open or close b) ventilation fan. So the bathroom does have venilation and is in compliance. If you decide not to open the window, not much help we can give you. Having a window screen is a good idea.

Ps one of our bathroom is no longer in compliance because we closed up a window, so there is just the shower wall or the glass bricks where window used to be. So we need to add a fan, just keep putting it off. Maybe when other bathroom remodel is done...

[dougules]

A large portion of old housing stock in my area are in the old 3-1 configuration. However do people with those houses cope? I can't believe I read through this entire thread.

This is still MMM right? WTF.

Once you hit FIRE, you get to do "WTF" you want. Like living in a clown house with 3.5 bathrooms...

Of course. You can also do whatever you want before FIRE, but that doesn't mean it's in line with Mustachianism. I'm pretty sure MMM has never written an article about splurging on material luxury once you have excess funds. Luxury "because I can" is pretty much the opposite of the blog's goal.

Re: bolded - You're kidding, right?

Not at all. If you're suggesting that he doesn't always practice what he preaches, well sure. but that doesn't mean that buying whatever you want post FIRE is suddenly mustachian.

Not to mention Accolay's comment didn't seem to be directed at people like yourself who are comfortably FIRE'd and acknowledge that 3.5 bathrooms is clownish. What's surprising about this thread is the people arguing that 2 bathrooms is a necessity rather than a luxury, particularly those without a unique situation like IBS.

So many MMM articles are explicitly about him spending on luxuries.  There are a lot of not-so-gentle reminders that so many things we take for granted are luxuries.  Having a bathroom at all is a luxury when you get down to it.  Billions of people have lived happy lives without them.  It's about cutting out the luxuries that aren't worth it. If you have a big family and a high savings rate, two or three bathrooms may be a worthwhile luxury.  For others it's not. 

[Boofinator]

I don't take issue with anyone having multiple bathrooms as a deal breaker *for themselves*, but all of the posts insisting it should be a necessity for others is bizarre, especially after so many of us indicated that it's a non issue.

Insisting others should pay a huge premium for housing for features they don't feel they need is definitely non Mustachian.

I don't recall a single post insisting somebody else should have an extra toilet as a necessity. I saw many people expressing their opinion, and then several posts indicating that their opinions were 'bizarre' (or some similar derivative).

For the record, I don't feel that a toilet is a necessity at all, as evidenced by excremental behaviors of many people on this planet. For my own personal western lifestyle, I feel that more than one toilet has been worth the money once kids got involved, though I have no issues shitting in the woods when necessary (so presumably could go without, if local laws and customs permitted).

[Metalcat]

I don't take issue with anyone having multiple bathrooms as a deal breaker *for themselves*, but all of the posts insisting it should be a necessity for others is bizarre, especially after so many of us indicated that it's a non issue.

Insisting others should pay a huge premium for housing for features they don't feel they need is definitely non Mustachian.

I don't recall a single post insisting somebody else should have an extra toilet as a necessity. I saw many people expressing their opinion, and then several posts indicating that their opinions were 'bizarre' (or some similar derivative).

For the record, I don't feel that a toilet is a necessity at all, as evidenced by excremental behaviors of many people on this planet. For my own personal western lifestyle, I feel that more than one toilet has been worth the money once kids got involved, though I have no issues shitting in the woods when necessary (so presumably could go without, if local laws and customs permitted).

I suppose I could have misinterpreted some of the posts, but several posts seemed pretty clearly to define living with one bathroom as downright uncivilized/unacceptable.

[Davnasty]

A large portion of old housing stock in my area are in the old 3-1 configuration. However do people with those houses cope? I can't believe I read through this entire thread.

This is still MMM right? WTF.

Once you hit FIRE, you get to do "WTF" you want. Like living in a clown house with 3.5 bathrooms...

Of course. You can also do whatever you want before FIRE, but that doesn't mean it's in line with Mustachianism. I'm pretty sure MMM has never written an article about splurging on material luxury once you have excess funds. Luxury "because I can" is pretty much the opposite of the blog's goal.

Re: bolded - You're kidding, right?

Not at all. If you're suggesting that he doesn't always practice what he preaches, well sure. but that doesn't mean that buying whatever you want post FIRE is suddenly mustachian.

Not to mention Accolay's comment didn't seem to be directed at people like yourself who are comfortably FIRE'd and acknowledge that 3.5 bathrooms is clownish. What's surprising about this thread is the people arguing that 2 bathrooms is a necessity rather than a luxury, particularly those without a unique situation like IBS.

So many MMM articles are explicitly about him spending on luxuries.  There are a lot of not-so-gentle reminders that so many things we take for granted are luxuries.  Having a bathroom at all is a luxury when you get down to it.  Billions of people have lived happy lives without them.  It's about cutting out the luxuries that aren't worth it. If you have a big family and a high savings rate, two or three bathrooms may be a worthwhile luxury.  For others it's not.

There is no hard and fast definition of luxury. Sometimes it's used to refer to lavish treats but you could also argue anything more than enough rice and water to keep you alive is a luxury. I confused my point by using that word.

My point was that the cost/benefit analyses does not change after FIRE. Saying one can do whatever they want after they FIRE is a meaningless statement.

[Davnasty]

I don't take issue with anyone having multiple bathrooms as a deal breaker *for themselves*, but all of the posts insisting it should be a necessity for others is bizarre, especially after so many of us indicated that it's a non issue.

Insisting others should pay a huge premium for housing for features they don't feel they need is definitely non Mustachian.

I don't recall a single post insisting somebody else should have an extra toilet as a necessity. I saw many people expressing their opinion, and then several posts indicating that their opinions were 'bizarre' (or some similar derivative).

For the record, I don't feel that a toilet is a necessity at all, as evidenced by excremental behaviors of many people on this planet. For my own personal western lifestyle, I feel that more than one toilet has been worth the money once kids got involved, though I have no issues shitting in the woods when necessary (so presumably could go without, if local laws and customs permitted).

I suppose I could have misinterpreted some of the posts, but several posts seemed pretty clearly to define living with one bathroom as downright uncivilized/unacceptable.

This one didn't call it a necessity, but it did call not having a second bathroom "cheap".

There's frugal, and then there's cheap.* For any living condition with more than two people, one bathroom falls on the cheap side of the spectrum (with of course the exception of where the current conception of cheap is actually frugal, such as a really low-income situation or having lived in the '70s). I would trade off in a heartbeat working two extra months of my life in order to be able to 1) have access to a crapper when I (or my family members) need one and 2) have general access to a bathroom when it is convenient. It's kind of like the decision of whether or not to own a car (or a second car): sure, I don't necessarily need one, and I would save a lot of money by not having one, but does it measurably improve my living standard relative to the amount I have to work to afford it?

*And then there's clownish: My current house has 4.5 baths, which is overkill for most of the year despite seven fulltime occupants.

[Boofinator]

This one didn't call it a necessity, but it did call not having a second bathroom "cheap".

Yes, my post. Lest we never forget, one person's cheap is another person's luxury. For example, I consider many of the things Jacob from ERE does as cheap (relative to the lifestyle I want to live), whereas he would consider my expenditures profligate. As a second example, my kids consider many of the things I do as cheap, whereas I consider them generally as luxurious (e.g., when my kids complain about the 84°F temperature inside the house, I tell them to be thankful they have AC at all, I sure didn't have any growing up in a much hotter climate and didn't feel I 'suffered' for lack of).

That being said, "cheap" is probably not the best description I could have used, and I apologize that I didn't more clearly refer to my perceived benefits from the added expense rather than a connotation that it should be a cultural norm.

[Imma]

Wow...

I've lived in over 40 homes from 150+ years old to brand new and I have never ever seen a kitchen bathroom.

That just sounds so odd.

It's quite common in older homes where I live, although usually there's a small little hallway in between. In my current house there's the kitchen, which opens into a tiny little hallway (like, less than 2m2) and you can either go outside through the backdoor or into the toilet. A previous home had the same layout, and I used to live in an apartment that had the bathroom right next to the kitchen - granted that's probably a violation of the building code now but the place was from the 20s. The kitchen was on the landing, like the doors to the bathroom, kitchen and living room. The bathroom door was right next to the stove. The dinner table was in the living room so it wasn't awkward, just a bit odd.

My current house used to have an outhouse and when the previous owners wanted indoor plumbing they built an annexe off the kitchen. The door to the annexe is where the backdoor used to be. They built a little hallway to still have access to the backyard (the hallway is about as wide as the back door) and then there's the toilet. Apart from not wanting to sacrifice the space indoors I've heard it was also cheaper to put plumbing in a new part of the house instead of running it through the entire home.

[dougules]

Wow...

I've lived in over 40 homes from 150+ years old to brand new and I have never ever seen a kitchen bathroom.

That just sounds so odd.

It's quite common in older homes where I live, although usually there's a small little hallway in between. In my current house there's the kitchen, which opens into a tiny little hallway (like, less than 2m2) and you can either go outside through the backdoor or into the toilet. A previous home had the same layout, and I used to live in an apartment that had the bathroom right next to the kitchen - granted that's probably a violation of the building code now but the place was from the 20s. The kitchen was on the landing, like the doors to the bathroom, kitchen and living room. The bathroom door was right next to the stove. The dinner table was in the living room so it wasn't awkward, just a bit odd.

My current house used to have an outhouse and when the previous owners wanted indoor plumbing they built an annexe off the kitchen. The door to the annexe is where the backdoor used to be. They built a little hallway to still have access to the backyard (the hallway is about as wide as the back door) and then there's the toilet. Apart from not wanting to sacrifice the space indoors I've heard it was also cheaper to put plumbing in a new part of the house instead of running it through the entire home.

I guess it makes a certain amount of sense.  Those are the two places you need to run pipes to, so why not put them close together?  That explains why the kitchen and the clearly-an-add-on bathroom in my aunt's old house share a wall. 

[accolay]

Not at all. If you're suggesting that he doesn't always practice what he preaches, well sure. but that doesn't mean that buying whatever you want post FIRE is suddenly mustachian.

Not to mention Accolay's comment didn't seem to be directed at people like yourself who are comfortably FIRE'd and acknowledge that 3.5 bathrooms is clownish. What's surprising about this thread is the people arguing that 2 bathrooms is a necessity rather than a luxury, particularly those without a unique situation like IBS.

Yup. Hashtag Firstworld Problems. Not arguing that having another crapper is inconvenient, but think it's ironic from a forum with an ideal about living frugally to get what they really want. One bathroom will work just fine, because how long are you in there anyway? If you're taking more than a few minutes to shit, you're probably chronically dehydrated, aren't getting enough fiber, and don't move enough. And of course this excludes special needs like our friend who's got the green apple splatters everyday.

[Milizard]

Not at all. If you're suggesting that he doesn't always practice what he preaches, well sure. but that doesn't mean that buying whatever you want post FIRE is suddenly mustachian.

Not to mention Accolay's comment didn't seem to be directed at people like yourself who are comfortably FIRE'd and acknowledge that 3.5 bathrooms is clownish. What's surprising about this thread is the people arguing that 2 bathrooms is a necessity rather than a luxury, particularly those without a unique situation like IBS.

Yup. Hashtag Firstworld Problems. Not arguing that having another crapper is inconvenient, but think it's ironic from a forum with an ideal about living frugally to get what they really want. One bathroom will work just fine, because how long are you in there anyway? If you're taking more than a few minutes to shit, you're probably chronically dehydrated, aren't getting enough fiber, and don't move enough. And of course this excludes special needs like our friend who's got the green apple splatters everyday.

Part of living how I want involves not sharing the bathroom while I'm bathing, or having to rush my bathing ritual because someone to about to crap their pants. Some people really enjoy their food. I really enjoy my baths.

[Dicey]

A large portion of old housing stock in my area are in the old 3-1 configuration. However do people with those houses cope? I can't believe I read through this entire thread.

This is still MMM right? WTF.

Once you hit FIRE, you get to do "WTF" you want. Like living in a clown house with 3.5 bathrooms...

Of course. You can also do whatever you want before FIRE, but that doesn't mean it's in line with Mustachianism. I'm pretty sure MMM has never written an article about splurging on material luxury once you have excess funds. Luxury "because I can" is pretty much the opposite of the blog's goal.

Re: bolded - You're kidding, right?

Not at all. If you're suggesting that he doesn't always practice what he preaches, well sure. but that doesn't mean that buying whatever you want post FIRE is suddenly mustachian.

Not to mention Accolay's comment didn't seem to be directed at people like yourself who are comfortably FIRE'd and acknowledge that 3.5 bathrooms is clownish. What's surprising about this thread is the people arguing that 2 bathrooms is a necessity rather than a luxury, particularly those without a unique situation like IBS.

So many MMM articles are explicitly about him spending on luxuries.  There are a lot of not-so-gentle reminders that so many things we take for granted are luxuries.  Having a bathroom at all is a luxury when you get down to it.  Billions of people have lived happy lives without them.  It's about cutting out the luxuries that aren't worth it. If you have a big family and a high savings rate, two or three bathrooms may be a worthwhile luxury.  For others it's not.

There is no hard and fast definition of luxury. Sometimes it's used to refer to lavish treats but you could also argue anything more than enough rice and water to keep you alive is a luxury. I confused my point by using that word.

My point was that the cost/benefit analyses does not change after FIRE. Saying one can do whatever they want after they FIRE is a meaningless statement.

Haha, it's my statement and I get to say it is not at all meaningless. It's amazing that after all those years of scrimping, saving and being super duper careful with money that I can now function pretty much on autopilot, AND buy virtually anything I want. I have more money that I ever dreamed possible because this shit really, really works. The cost/analysis benefit does change when you hit your number and then the economy does so well for so long that it just keeps on growing. I hope it happens for every single person who strives for FIRE

[ReadySetMillionaire]

This forum gets so incredibly frustrating when posters believe that their own *personal* definition of frugality should govern everyone else.

From my personal perspective, the whole point of MMM/the frugal community in general is not to run a race to the frugal bottom just so you can see how soon you can retire or how cheaply you can live.  The whole point is to question all of your expenses/consumerist norms, cut mercilessly the things you don't care about, and then save/spend the excess so you can live a rich life.

My wife and I live in an 1,100 square foot ranch, drive two paid off cars, analyze our expenses monthly, constantly strive to save on groceries, etc. ... all so we can enjoy our various hobbies.  Note that this does not make us correct or right, it just means we are doing what we feel is best for our situation.

If you need a bigger house than my wife and I, and you need 2.5 bathrooms or whatever, I'm sure you've thought about it, and your priorities in life, so good for you. I take five minute showers and would rather spend my leisure time reading with a 55" TV playing sports in the background; but if you love taking a nice, long bath, and that makes you happy, then splurge on that second bathroom all you want. Good for you.

I wish people weren't so high and mighty, judgmental, and oftentimes rude on this forum.

[Davnasty]

This forum gets so incredibly frustrating when posters believe that their own *personal* definition of frugality should govern everyone else.

From my personal perspective, the whole point of MMM/the frugal community in general is not to run a race to the frugal bottom just so you can see how soon you can retire or how cheaply you can live.  The whole point is to question all of your expenses/consumerist norms, cut mercilessly the things you don't care about, and then save/spend the excess so you can live a rich life.

My wife and I live in an 1,100 square foot ranch, drive two paid off cars, analyze our expenses monthly, constantly strive to save on groceries, etc. ... all so we can enjoy our various hobbies.  Note that this does not make us correct or right, it just means we are doing what we feel is best for our situation.

If you need a bigger house than my wife and I, and you need 2.5 bathrooms or whatever, I'm sure you've thought about it, and your priorities in life, so good for you. I take five minute showers and would rather spend my leisure time reading with a 55" TV playing sports in the background; but if you love taking a nice, long bath, and that makes you happy, then splurge on that second bathroom all you want. Good for you.

I wish people weren't so high and mighty, judgmental, and oftentimes rude on this forum.

Questioning norms and critiquing each others lifestyle and spending choices are a big part of the forum. As for trying to govern other peoples' choices, that happens, but I really haven't seen that in this thread. Has anyone actually been told they shouldn't have 2 bathrooms?

What I see is some people saying 2 bathrooms is a necessity and others questioning that mindset.

I also find the argument of "[if] that makes you happy, then splurge" to fall a little short. If it truly improves your life, then yes, splurge. But the fact is, humans do a very poor job of determining what will actually make them happy, especially in the long term. That's where discussions like this have benefitted my life. Taking the life experience of a whole bunch of people and using it to inform my decisions rather than just taking my best guess based on my own experience has resulted in me making better life choices (probably :)

Viewing something as a necessity or as something that improves your life simply because you've had that something for awhile and grown accustomed to having it is incredibly common and I suspect that could explain a lot of the sentiment expressed in this thread. That's not the same as truly improving ones life. I used to drive a truck and for a time I actually used it as a truck and I think it improved my life. Then I moved into an apartment and had less use for a truck but I still made the same argument. "This truck makes me happy, so I splurge on owning it". I used arguments of uncommon scenarios like "what if I need to pick up furniture from the thrift store". Very similar to, "what if someone has a stomach virus".

But then I read these forums for a while and decided maybe I should try a smaller car. Now I've realized my happiness hasn't decreased at all. In fact I take pride in my 12 year old Honda Fit and parking in town is much easier.

[Davnasty]

Haha, it's my statement and I get to say it is not at all meaningless. It's amazing that after all those years of scrimping, saving and being super duper careful with money that I can now function pretty much on autopilot, AND buy virtually anything I want. I have more money that I ever dreamed possible because this shit really, really works. The cost/analysis benefit does change when you hit your number and then the economy does so well for so long that it just keeps on growing. I hope it happens for every single person who strives for FIRE

Bananas are healthy because they're yellow. It's my statement and I get to say it is not at all meaningless. Am I doing this right?

You said that someone who is fired can spend money on whatever they want. So the math just doesn't matter anymore? In your situation you have more than enough to be FIRE'd and the cost of your desires have not exceeded your stash. That's great, but it doesn't mean FIRE=money is infinite now, especially not for those who FIRE with less fat available. Obviously you already know that, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

[ReadySetMillionaire]

This forum gets so incredibly frustrating when posters believe that their own *personal* definition of frugality should govern everyone else.

From my personal perspective, the whole point of MMM/the frugal community in general is not to run a race to the frugal bottom just so you can see how soon you can retire or how cheaply you can live.  The whole point is to question all of your expenses/consumerist norms, cut mercilessly the things you don't care about, and then save/spend the excess so you can live a rich life.

My wife and I live in an 1,100 square foot ranch, drive two paid off cars, analyze our expenses monthly, constantly strive to save on groceries, etc. ... all so we can enjoy our various hobbies.  Note that this does not make us correct or right, it just means we are doing what we feel is best for our situation.

If you need a bigger house than my wife and I, and you need 2.5 bathrooms or whatever, I'm sure you've thought about it, and your priorities in life, so good for you. I take five minute showers and would rather spend my leisure time reading with a 55" TV playing sports in the background; but if you love taking a nice, long bath, and that makes you happy, then splurge on that second bathroom all you want. Good for you.

I wish people weren't so high and mighty, judgmental, and oftentimes rude on this forum.

Questioning norms and critiquing each others lifestyle and spending choices are a big part of the forum. As for trying to govern other peoples' choices, that happens, but I really haven't seen that in this thread. Has anyone actually been told they shouldn't have 2 bathrooms?

What I see is some people saying 2 bathrooms is a necessity and others questioning that mindset.

I also find the argument of "[if] that makes you happy, then splurge" to fall a little short. If it truly improves your life, then yes, splurge. But the fact is, humans do a very poor job of determining what will actually make them happy, especially in the long term. That's where discussions like this have benefitted my life. Taking the life experience of a whole bunch of people and using it to inform my decisions rather than just taking my best guess based on my own experience has resulted in me making better life choices (probably :)

Viewing something as a necessity or as something that improves your life simply because you've had that something for awhile and grown accustomed to having it is incredibly common and I suspect that could explain a lot of the sentiment expressed in this thread. That's not the same as truly improving ones life. I used to drive a truck and for a time I actually used it as a truck and I think it improved my life. Then I moved into an apartment and had less use for a truck but I still made the same argument. "This truck makes me happy, so I splurge on owning it". I used arguments of uncommon scenarios like "what if I need to pick up furniture from the thrift store". Very similar to, "what if someone has a stomach virus".

But then I read these forums for a while and decided maybe I should try a smaller car. Now I've realized my happiness hasn't decreased at all. In fact I take pride in my 12 year old Honda Fit and parking in town is much easier.

I guess what I'm getting at is that, for some people, things are colloquially "necessary" to them, and you just have to respect their decisions.

For instance, I've been to the Ohio State - Michigan game every year (home and away), plus two other Ohio State home games, every year since 2002.  Some people may scoff at how much money I spend going to these games, but these are not in my "discretionary" category. I budget it every year right up there with the mortgage payments. There is zero question as to whether I'm going or not.

If someone has the same strong feelings about any hobby, or even their own relaxation time in their own bathroom, then good for them. Whether they label that "necessary" is just an easy and shorthand choice of words for saying "this is a high priority in my life."

[Davnasty]

This forum gets so incredibly frustrating when posters believe that their own *personal* definition of frugality should govern everyone else.

From my personal perspective, the whole point of MMM/the frugal community in general is not to run a race to the frugal bottom just so you can see how soon you can retire or how cheaply you can live.  The whole point is to question all of your expenses/consumerist norms, cut mercilessly the things you don't care about, and then save/spend the excess so you can live a rich life.

My wife and I live in an 1,100 square foot ranch, drive two paid off cars, analyze our expenses monthly, constantly strive to save on groceries, etc. ... all so we can enjoy our various hobbies.  Note that this does not make us correct or right, it just means we are doing what we feel is best for our situation.

If you need a bigger house than my wife and I, and you need 2.5 bathrooms or whatever, I'm sure you've thought about it, and your priorities in life, so good for you. I take five minute showers and would rather spend my leisure time reading with a 55" TV playing sports in the background; but if you love taking a nice, long bath, and that makes you happy, then splurge on that second bathroom all you want. Good for you.

I wish people weren't so high and mighty, judgmental, and oftentimes rude on this forum.

Questioning norms and critiquing each others lifestyle and spending choices are a big part of the forum. As for trying to govern other peoples' choices, that happens, but I really haven't seen that in this thread. Has anyone actually been told they shouldn't have 2 bathrooms?

What I see is some people saying 2 bathrooms is a necessity and others questioning that mindset.

I also find the argument of "[if] that makes you happy, then splurge" to fall a little short. If it truly improves your life, then yes, splurge. But the fact is, humans do a very poor job of determining what will actually make them happy, especially in the long term. That's where discussions like this have benefitted my life. Taking the life experience of a whole bunch of people and using it to inform my decisions rather than just taking my best guess based on my own experience has resulted in me making better life choices (probably :)

Viewing something as a necessity or as something that improves your life simply because you've had that something for awhile and grown accustomed to having it is incredibly common and I suspect that could explain a lot of the sentiment expressed in this thread. That's not the same as truly improving ones life. I used to drive a truck and for a time I actually used it as a truck and I think it improved my life. Then I moved into an apartment and had less use for a truck but I still made the same argument. "This truck makes me happy, so I splurge on owning it". I used arguments of uncommon scenarios like "what if I need to pick up furniture from the thrift store". Very similar to, "what if someone has a stomach virus".

But then I read these forums for a while and decided maybe I should try a smaller car. Now I've realized my happiness hasn't decreased at all. In fact I take pride in my 12 year old Honda Fit and parking in town is much easier.

I guess what I'm getting at is that, for some people, things are colloquially "necessary" to them, and you just have to respect their decisions.

For instance, I've been to the Ohio State - Michigan game every year (home and away), plus two other Ohio State home games, every year since 2002.  Some people may scoff at how much money I spend going to these games, but these are not in my "discretionary" category. I budget it every year right up there with the mortgage payments. There is zero question as to whether I'm going or not.

If someone has the same strong feelings about any hobby, or even their own relaxation time in their own bathroom, then good for them. Whether they label that "necessary" is just an easy and shorthand choice of words for saying "this is a high priority in my life."

That makes sense to me. But if you state your opinion that football games bring value to your life greater than what they cost, is it so wrong of us to question that? To ask if you've considered X and Y? Again, I think that's an important part of this forum.

Oh, and I disagree that I must respect others decisions. I must respect the person regardless of their decision, but not necessarily their decision.

[mm1970]

With all the focus on bathrooms, has anybody mentioned the wasted bedrooms? Unless it's a roommate situation, people should be sharing rooms! And even with roommates, we've crammed an extra person into the living room.

Ah, I'd love a third bedroom too.  I pointed that out already.  My boys share a room.  My husband snores.  It's so frigging hard to sleep.  He won't see the damned doctor!  I often end up on the couch.

[Dicey]

Haha, it's my statement and I get to say it is not at all meaningless. It's amazing that after all those years of scrimping, saving and being super duper careful with money that I can now function pretty much on autopilot, AND buy virtually anything I want. I have more money that I ever dreamed possible because this shit really, really works. The cost/analysis benefit does change when you hit your number and then the economy does so well for so long that it just keeps on growing. I hope it happens for every single person who strives for FIRE

Bananas are healthy because they're yellow. It's my statement and I get to say it is not at all meaningless. Am I doing this right? Dunno, because I hate bananas ;-). I'm not saying your statement is meaningless, but you decreed that mine was, hence my response.

You said that someone who is fired can spend money on whatever they want. So the math just doesn't matter anymore? In your situation you have more than enough to be FIRE'd and the cost of your desires have not exceeded your stash. That's great, but it doesn't mean FIRE=money is infinite now, especially not for those who FIRE with less fat available. Obviously you already know that, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

Yeah, I can see that it might seem confusing. I'll try to explain better. Typically, by the time one hits FIRE, the frugality muscles are strong and mighty. So strong and mighty that one hardly feels them working and is rarely tempted by anything material any more. So if you're strongly drawn to something, it is within reach. For example, our daughter lives in Aspen. We could buy a place there. Do we want it? Fuck no! But we could. That's just insane to my little lizard brain.

Concurrently, the markets have had an amazing run and the stash has burgeoned beyond personal belief. Our insane amount of fat came after FIRE, not before, primarily due to favorable market conditions.

We're so past our number it's astonishing, unbelievable, really. I didn't quite mean it in the way you phrased it, but yes, the math has taken on a life of its own. I'm gobsmacked every time I look at our account balances. It's still kind of hard to believe it's real.

I remain active on this forum because I want others to know that their goals can be reached (and perhaps wildly exceeded) even if they're getting a late start, have debt, live in a high COLA, don't make a huge salary, don't know jack about investing, etc. I'm especially drawn to encouraging single women who are not high wage earners, because that's what I was. Life being weird and all, I had hit my number and was just trying to figure out the last piece of the puzzle, which was pre-ACA healthcare with pre-existing conditions, when I connected with the guy who eventually (and finally, at 54!) became my dear husband.

But that's a story for another thread. Can we get back to counting toilets now?