Author Topic: In light of the current post... "Be Unhappy and Save - or - Be Happy and Spend?"  (Read 7439 times)

lukebuz

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So, the latest main site posting had got me thinking.  Life is limited; we all know that, some tend to ignore it and pretend it's not.

My question is this, and I'm seeking opinions...

I live in a perfectly adequate suburbia house.  12 years old, good condition, no problems, etc.  However, I'm not really happy here.  I need WIDE OPEN SPACES.  Land.  Right now, the house has .2 acre yard, not really enough to do much of anything, other than pick up dog poop.  Plus, it's noisy - barking dogs, constant lawnmowers, weedeaters or leaf blowers.   Add in the streetlight right above us, and the complete lack of any nature, and it's not for me.

So - why am I there?  This house was bought as a "temp" house during a 24 hour house hunting search in advance of a new job in a new state.  I purposefully picked one with easy resale, and low maintenance.  We weren't sure if the job would work out, if the new state would work out, and if we would miss family.  Well, everything is going well, and now we want to stay.  It's been about 20 months.  We spent $182K plus 10K for a fence and shed and repairs.  So, $192K invested.

I'd like to buy a small acreage so I can plant a garden, lay out in the sun, let my super high energy 2 year old run around, sip a glass of wine in peace and quiet on my southern front porch, and see the occasional bird or squirrel or heaven forbid, deer.  It's what I want, and feel I need to be content.

I can get what I need for about $250-$275K.  So, about 75K more in principal.  I can afford it, easy, on a 15 yr, with 20% down.  No other debt at all. 
However, the thing that gets me, is that I'll LOSE about $15,000 in realtor fees and new mortgage costs.

Given that, should I stay and (kind of, but not really) suffer or move and blossom on a small farm?
If I should stay, how long until it's "worthwhile" to move?




ysette9

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It seems you have made this into an either/or situation where it probably is more nuanced. First, what do you think of the state and do you think you will stay long-term? How about renting a place with more land to see how you like it? It feels like you made this purchase too hastily and it was a mistake, so your solution is to tie up even more money into something you hope you will like better. I think you snood give this house-on-an-even-bigger-piece-of-land thing a trial run.

Guesl982374

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Alternatively, can you rent out your current house?

Bruinguy

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It depends and there is a lot to consider.  I would not say there is a definitive yes or no here. 

On the financial side, if you are increasing your monthly spend, you are delaying your FIRE date.  The good thing is that you are going to be getting back some of the amount as equity in the house as you pay down the principal.  Also, there may be some tax savings from the increased interest payments.  Both of these things would lessen the impact of the increased monthly spend.

Some other things that come to mind:

  • Will you have a longer commute?  If so, how much?
  • How long do you plan on staying at this job?
  • Do you actually have the time to do the things that you dream of doing on the larger property (i.e., gardening)?
  • If you have a working spouse, how would it affect his/her commute?
  • Are you comfortable with the school district in both locations?
  • Would you be moving farther away from friends that you have made?  If so, would moving impact those friendships?
  • Will you need to make additional investments to the property over and above the $75k?

It is definitely a big decision, but I think you can approach it like any other.  As ysette9 pointed out, it isn't an either/or situation.  What are your alternatives?  Are there large open spaces nearby that you could use (e.g., regional park)?


Prairie Stash

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How many extra years of work will it take to pay off? We all have money and can afford things, what we don't have is time.

The whole point of todays article was to value time above all else. Time with family and friends or time at work, its your choice.

Mr. Green

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I'm speaking only to the financial aspect of your consideration.

If you can afford the more expensive place, "easy," on a 15 year note with 20% down you're clearly in a good financial position. I would simply remind you that unless you never plan on selling your current house, you will pay those real estate agent costs no matter what. It's just a matter of whether it's sooner or later. You might have avenues to help lessen those expenses, like a real estate agent that cuts you a break on the fee, or Redfin (only charges a 1.5% fee), but you will still lose some money when you sell the house. Even if you sell it without an agent, the buyer will most likely have an agent and he or she will still need to be paid and it always comes from the seller. Unless you plan on paying for the next house in cash, you're still going to pay mortgage expenses as well. So to me those don't seem like very big hurdles.

Of course there are all the other aspects of a move to consider like how it changes your commute, etc.

Iplawyer

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So, the latest main site posting had got me thinking.  Life is limited; we all know that, some tend to ignore it and pretend it's not.

My question is this, and I'm seeking opinions...

I live in a perfectly adequate suburbia house.  12 years old, good condition, no problems, etc.  However, I'm not really happy here.  I need WIDE OPEN SPACES.  Land.  Right now, the house has .2 acre yard, not really enough to do much of anything, other than pick up dog poop.  Plus, it's noisy - barking dogs, constant lawnmowers, weedeaters or leaf blowers.   Add in the streetlight right above us, and the complete lack of any nature, and it's not for me.

So - why am I there?  This house was bought as a "temp" house during a 24 hour house hunting search in advance of a new job in a new state.  I purposefully picked one with easy resale, and low maintenance.  We weren't sure if the job would work out, if the new state would work out, and if we would miss family.  Well, everything is going well, and now we want to stay.  It's been about 20 months.  We spent $182K plus 10K for a fence and shed and repairs.  So, $192K invested.

I'd like to buy a small acreage so I can plant a garden, lay out in the sun, let my super high energy 2 year old run around, sip a glass of wine in peace and quiet on my southern front porch, and see the occasional bird or squirrel or heaven forbid, deer.  It's what I want, and feel I need to be content.

I can get what I need for about $250-$275K.  So, about 75K more in principal.  I can afford it, easy, on a 15 yr, with 20% down.  No other debt at all. 
However, the thing that gets me, is that I'll LOSE about $15,000 in realtor fees and new mortgage costs.

Given that, should I stay and (kind of, but not really) suffer or move and blossom on a small farm?
If I should stay, how long until it's "worthwhile" to move?

If you are saving and it doesn't delay your FIRE more than you are willing to delay it - why not just do it.  You would have paid $15K in rent.  Instead you paid a house payment and deducted interest and property tax.  If you are planting roots - plant them somewhere that makes your life outside of work a little more enjoyable. 

lukebuz

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If you are saving and it doesn't delay your FIRE more than you are willing to delay it - why not just do it.  You would have paid $15K in rent.  Instead you paid a house payment and deducted interest and property tax.  If you are planting roots - plant them somewhere that makes your life outside of work a little more enjoyable.

Thanks all for your opinions.  It will delay my FIRE date, which I started life off with poor choices - I'd like to "FIRE" when my son graduates HS, age 52.  I understand I'd have paid $15K to live in rent or fees/interest/taxes.  What some of you said is true.  I'm not going to stay in this house "forever", so I'll incur the costs no matter what.  So, in my mind, I might as well jump earlier, than later.

More Q's:

Will you have a longer commute?  If so, how much? - No, looking for house within a radius to keep commute at <25 mins (current 21m)

How long do you plan on staying at this job? - They pay well, and i'm comfortable, so quite a while.

Do you actually have the time to do the things that you dream of doing on the larger property (i.e., gardening)?  Yes, we are homebodies.  Evenings and Weekends.

If you have a working spouse, how would it affect his/her commute? - Taken into account.  We would be 20 mins from major population centers and activities, so reasonable change there.

Are you comfortable with the school district in both locations? - Shopping school district too!  Son will be school age in 2 years!  One town, with cheaper prices gets "3".  The city we are in now gets 9's and 10's.  We will end up paying more to be in better schools.


Would you be moving farther away from friends that you have made?  If so, would moving impact those friendships? - No impact, really.  Another 10 mins drive (10 now to 20 after a move) is not a big deal.  We are NOT in a bikable city, so that was never an option.

Will you need to make additional investments to the property over and above the $75k? - Likely minor, yes.  Factored into the decision.

Laura33

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The real question is what is your driver -- is it about owning/having the things, or about taking the time you need to value your connections with other people and live your best life?  So if your current place feels claustrophobic and your family's longstanding dream has been that space and you really need it to breathe, then, yes, go for it; don't let fear or a little money hold you back another second.  OTOH, if you just have this pretty mental picture, but the reality is your homestead is going to leave you less time to spend with your family or require other tradeoffs, then I'd re-think it.

The thing about a sudden, unexpected death is that it crystalizes what matters and what doesn't -- and usually, those answers are completely different than what you think they are while you're living your normal life.

My example:  a few years ago, at DH's urging, we took a month off for a big trip; my mom and stepdad joined us for part of that time.  I fretted massively about the cost (this was not a Mustachian trip), but we enjoyed it so much we did it again two years later.  On the way home from that second trip, my stepdad had a massive stroke and never woke up. 

When we were planning those trips, all I could do was fret about the cost.  Looking back at it now, I would not trade those two trips for any amount of money.  My stepdad had suffered from Parkinson's for a decade, but he was *happy* on these trips.  It was like out of the blue, we suddenly got back the guy who raised me and who we had been slowly losing for almost a decade.  I am grateful I gave in to Mr. Spendypants and agreed to these trips, because it bought me time with someone I loved that I never would have had otherwise. 

That experience changed my priority list to put "time with extended family" higher on it, even though it means spending more money now, using my vacation to go places I might not personally choose, and working a little longer than I might otherwise have to.  Because at least some of the older generation is not going to be around/mobile/able to do all the fun things by the time we FIRE -- my MIL has cancer, my Granny is in her 90s, even my super-healthy mom is now at the age where the European rental car places won't rent to her any more (much to her annoyance).  So dammit, if my dad wants us to travel to TN for my Granny's birthday, or my FIL wants to get the whole family together at some rental house, I'm going to find a way to make that happen.  Period.

MightyAl

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I currently just relocated to a town near you in southern Indiana and purchased a house on 4 acres.  The house and property costs aren't very mustachian but it is exactly what we wanted and is incredible.  We have chickens and our kids can run around with no worries of traffic or strangers.  I will be putting in a substantial garden this year and possibly an even larger one next year.  My wife, who is a lifelong suburbanite, has fallen in love with raising chickens.  The cost is higher then a comparable house in a neighborhood but the quality of life is much better.  Sitting out at night around the fire pit telling stories and roasting marshmallows there is nothing better. 


lukebuz

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I currently just relocated to a town near you in southern Indiana and purchased a house on 4 acres.  The house and property costs aren't very mustachian but it is exactly what we wanted and is incredible.  We have chickens and our kids can run around with no worries of traffic or strangers.  I will be putting in a substantial garden this year and possibly an even larger one next year.  My wife, who is a lifelong suburbanite, has fallen in love with raising chickens.  The cost is higher then a comparable house in a neighborhood but the quality of life is much better.  Sitting out at night around the fire pit telling stories and roasting marshmallows there is nothing better.

Dang.  You pegged it.  I've grown up with an acreage with my parents, and my first house was (kind of) rural, so I know about it.

As far as Laura said above - this won't take time away from my family or friends.  It'll mean another year of work, but I'll love (i'd imagine) the 20 years preceding it vs being cooped up.  For some, a suburb house is great.  They spend all their time at work, shopping and eating out, and then the TV.  Not me.  Once work is out, I like to be home, relaxing with the fam.  We don't care for travel much (tried it, was somewhat fun, but get more enjoyment out of the little things), so a good homestead is paramount for us.

Dicey

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Everything in life is a trade-off. I had a rare cancer when I was 21/22 and it has colored every life decision since then. It was the start of my drive towards FIRE and my reason to be sure I smelled the roses along the way. It's also made me a "Bloom where you're planted" sort of gal.

If you want it, nothing is stopping you from doing it. I would just spend a little more time contemplating your decision and I would do a lot more research before I made the leap. I'm not saying don't do it, just make sure you are making the most optimal decision possible. I'd also take a hard look at choosing a very focused path to FIRE. Could you buckle down and be a super saver for say, five-seven more years and then be free forever? How unhappy are you now and how do you know for certain that you will be happy if you move? As Erma Bombeck famously wrote, "The Grass Is Always Greener Over The Septic Tank".

Laura33 - Thanks for sharing your story. I am sorry for your loss and elated that you trusted your gut and took the trips. Having experienced Parkinson's up close, in a very sad way it's a blessing to have a sudden ending. At least you know his last days were great ones and he was happy.

RetiredAt63

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Everything in life is a trade-off. I had a rare cancer when I was 21/22 and it has colored every life decision since then. It was the start of my drive towards FIRE and my reason to be sure I smelled the roses along the way. It's also made me a "Bloom where you're planted" sort of gal.

If you want it, nothing is stopping you from doing it. I would just spend a little more time contemplating your decision and I would do a lot more research before I made the leap. I'm not saying don't do it, just make sure you are making the most optimal decision possible. I'd also take a hard look at choosing a very focused path to FIRE. Could you buckle down and be a super saver for say, five-seven more years and then be free forever? How unhappy are you now and how do you know for certain that you will be happy if you move? As Erma Bombeck famously wrote, "The Grass Is Always Greener Over The Septic Tank".

Laura33 - Thanks for sharing your story. I am sorry for your loss and elated that you trusted your gut and took the trips. Having experienced Parkinson's up close, in a very sad way it's a blessing to have a sudden ending. At least you know his last days were great ones and he was happy.

Totally OT, but I have never understood that title.  Greener over the septic field, yes.  Over the septic tank, no - my grass over the septic tank is always browner (roots can't go deep).

Which brings up the move topic - is OP and his wife comfortable with all the extras that go with rural living? We all know them,  the well pump dying on a major holiday, the septic tank needing to be pumped, finding out your septic tank is a grey well (happened to neighbours), your leach field needs to be totally redone, big lawn area that has to be grass because it is your leach field, your sump pump needs to have a battery backup or you will flood when the power goes out, no water when there is no power, being low on the list for restoring power when it goes out, etc.? 

kite

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How recently did you buy?
How did you overlook things about the home that bug you? 
Why can't you have a garden in 2 tenths of an acre?  You only pick up dog poop if you want to.
Some of these are rhetorical.  You don't just lose $15k by moving to "acreage" you also lose time (and more money) every week on maintenance of the new place.  There will be things to hate about that location, too. 
Wildlife decimating your garden. Social isolation. Every interaction with neighbors requires getting in a car.  More maintenance with larger property and presumably an older home. 
In light of the most recent post, I do think it is wise to align your spending to your values and to try and extract the most meaning and joy out of the finite time we have on earth.  But that doesn't equate to "I need to spend money on X in order to be happy" in my worldview. 
My advice:  take your time.  Haste makes waste. 

lukebuz

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Good points, this is for certain a "think it over" and align with your values.  I'm the strange type of person you actually enjoys home maintenance, improvements, tinkering, etc.  I work behind a desk, and I never have anything tangible to show for it.  Shipping more product, faster?  Yay, I guess.
I am also an introvert who enjoys his own company.  Wouldn't mind more time alone...nope, not one bit!

There most certainly is a realistic picture of the grass is not always greener, and a new home doesn't make other problems go away.  This isn't a cover up for other issues, it's a core issue.
We've looked for 3 months, haven't found anything, and are not rushing.  Spring and Summer listing season is coming around.  We'll see what comes on market.

kite

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Didn't you just move 18 months ago? 
If you're ready in such a short time time to move again, renting is your friend. 

Stachless

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I'd say do it.  This isn't exactly a YOLO crowd, but you do only go around once and your really investing more in real estate as opposed to spending more on frivolous items.   Maybe your bigger place will actually make you more money in resale value down the road?  If it will for sure improve the quality of the exactly one and only life you have, and you can afford it easily, do it!  Not doing so would be more cheap than frugal.

TabbyCat

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I think the answer is: be happy and also save. Make choices that make you happy. Sometimes that choice cost more money, but on something that matters - not $1k a year on Starbucks, $3k a year on eating out, $2k a year on shoes, or whatever other materialistic thing. Mr. Money Moustache himself wrote about quitting retirement savings for awhile to save for a house. Saving isn't always the #1 priority, this is all about investing in a good life.

Metric Mouse

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I'd buy in a heartbeat. Never a good price for happiness. Spend and be happy, every single day, given that choice.

SuperMex

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Five options as I see it.

1. Rent your current house out. multiply market rent by .6 example 1000 x .6 = $600, Will this come close to covering your rent? If it does why not have a rental building wealth while you move to you dream acreage. Even if it is $100-200 less you are really breaking even as you are paying down the debt and it is going up in value over time. Could you refinance and make this work? Could you pay as much off over the next 2 years refinance and then do this?

2. Rent your home out breaking close to even and rent a home with acreage as a test to make sure this is the right move. You always have reversibility on this and your current home should be going up over time.

3. Sell your home and buy a home with acreage.

4. If you have the money you could pay your home off and then sell it with owner financing at a rate of 5-6%. This would make passive income with the opportunity that the buyer could default and you get your home back. My uncle did this and got his house back twice over about a ten year period. If you can't do this now could you suck it up for 2-3 years and do it?

5. Stay miserable.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 09:30:34 AM by SuperMex »

honeybbq

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I'd buy in a heartbeat. Never a good price for happiness. Spend and be happy, every single day, given that choice.

I agree. I'd just start looking for the right piece of property under no pressure. When you find it, buy it.

jjandjab

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I'd buy in a heartbeat. Never a good price for happiness. Spend and be happy, every single day, given that choice.

I agree. I'd just start looking for the right piece of property under no pressure. When you find it, buy it.

Agree with these sentiments. Especially since you say you like your work and are comfortable there. I personally am interested in the FI more than the RE. I look at my work as a profession and although it can be stressful at times, I enjoy it. Many here seem to have jobs they don't like and FIRE helps them set goals to move on. But if your FIRE goal moves from 52 to say 55, or some other number you are OK with, then just do it.

I do spend more than most here and have no hard and fast date to RE, so I choose to enjoy my journey to FI within reason and focus on the things that make me and my family happy.

lukebuz

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Thanks for all the inputs.  All in All, I'll lose about $20,000 to make this move, so about $30K gross earnings.  If I end up happy there long-term (which I think will happen, to the best of my imagining) it'll mean another 4 months of work assuming I had it invested. 

I'd like to think daily happiness is worth a few extra months of work.  Plus, not just my happiness.  The wife...the child(ren?)...

MightyAl

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I am just north of you in Indiana and I did just this when we relocated from STL.  We were in a wonderful upscale suburb with high rated schools and it was life sucking.  We were on a small lot that was beautifully landscaped in a nice house but we knew few of our neighbors (even after working hard to meet them) and our property taxes were spiraling out of control.

We moved to Seymour, IN due to a job transfer and bought a great house on 4 acres.  We know most of our neighbors (the that there are) and our kinds run around like "The Lord of the Flies".  We have chickens and a large pole barn.  The house isn't much further from civilization time wise than our last house and you can actually see all the stars at night. 

I have gone back and forth on the additional cost compared to living in town but at the end of the day it is worth it.

Gal2016

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I'm with you. I could have gotten a cheaper house in a poorer neighborhood (and sent my kids to the same school). But, since I want to enjoy life while I'm living (and working), I decided that having a more comfortable and large home in a nice neighborhood was worth it.  I'll retire in my early 50's and am fine with that. People talk as if time with other people is what it's all about ... can I tell, you, it isn't always? I'm an introvert -- I have no intention of spending large amounts of time with people. I want comfortable solitude. I do want to spend time with my kids and other family -- but that's not going to take up all my time.  My kids will have their own lives. My parents and other family have theirs. So, my home is where I invest time, energy and money as a long-term investment in my happiness.

Just Joe

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This is similar to our plans when our second child reaches high school in a few years. We have the right town and the right jobs but we are doing the neighborhood lifestyle and for us right now it works.

Later we'd like to have 5 acres and a modest house similar to the one we have now. Won't be long and we'll be empty nesters and won't need the extra space except when people come to visit.

Yeah we too like chores and fixing stuff. Building and improving our place. And we are introverts too. Nobody ever comes to visit us, we're always the ones visiting other people.

We look forward to "playing" outside more.

Things to consider: look at your potential new neighbors closely. I've known people to buy into property only to discover they live next to an ornery unfriendly version of the Clampetts. Where I live the further out of town we go, the cheaper the land values more or less. Don't want to live next to the guy that divides his time between jail and home with the family. I have lived places where anything not bolted down and locked up walked away.

Growing up we lived in the "sticks". If you the parents aren't motivated to provide transportation for your kids' social aspirations, your kids will grow up somewhat isolated. I have had a trio of friends who were raised in the country without access to alot of pop-culture, limited internet access (religious reasons) and they were in some ways like hanging out with Amish escapees for a while. 

It was five miles to where the kids I knew best hung out when I grew up. I got really good at bicycling that distance despite the mountain hills. Internet helps these days I'm sure. That said I really enjoyed having no boundaries where we lived. Hiking, swimming, climbing, etc. We could do it all.

In our current neighborhood we are always working to keep our kids and critters from irritating the neighbors who are nice people.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 09:54:27 AM by Tasty Pinecones »

soccerluvof4

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Simply put I would move on. Your original post I read no "happiness" by you at all and if your going to be successful at anything its one thing to be willing to have trade offs but imho you will obsess about it until you do it anyhow.  Having said that use all the MMM principals in looking for a place that provides you other economic sense to help make up for that 15k loss.

Dicey

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Everything in life is a trade-off... As Erma Bombeck famously wrote, "The Grass Is Always Greener Over The Septic Tank".

Totally OT, but I have never understood that title.  Greener over the septic field, yes.  Over the septic tank, no - my grass over the septic tank is always browner (roots can't go deep).

Which brings up the move topic - is OP and his wife comfortable with all the extras that go with rural living? We all know them,  the well pump dying on a major holiday, the septic tank needing to be pumped, finding out your septic tank is a grey well (happened to neighbours), your leach field needs to be totally redone, big lawn area that has to be grass because it is your leach field, your sump pump needs to have a battery backup or you will flood when the power goes out, no water when there is no power, being low on the list for restoring power when it goes out, etc.?
Still OT, but maybe it depends on where you live. In CA, there's more brown than green, especially during the summer, plus we're just coming out of a seven-year drought. In rural areas, it wasn't uncommon for the only green to be...you guessed it!
As long as I'm still OT, my young contractor nephew just bought his first house, a total dump fixer. The septic tank is in front of the garage. WTH? How is that even legal?

Metric Mouse

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Thanks for all the inputs.  All in All, I'll lose about $20,000 to make this move, so about $30K gross earnings.  If I end up happy there long-term (which I think will happen, to the best of my imagining) it'll mean another 4 months of work assuming I had it invested. 

I'd like to think daily happiness is worth a few extra months of work.  Plus, not just my happiness.  The wife...the child(ren?)...

Absolutely worth it!

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!