I’m Debt Free

[BlueHouse]

Did you read the beginning of this thread? Did you see the name-calling and anger of some of those POYMers?

Okay, I went back to the beginning of the thread and re-read the first page.  I didn't see any name-calling or even anger...just disappointment and a general feeling that one's accomplishments should be commended and not scolded. 

@I-Ranger , I'm clearly reading in a neutral tone because I don't feel attacked.  Is it possible that you are feeling attacked and the other posters didn't mean any personal attack, but rather an attack on the behavior?    I just don't see it and I think you might be personalizing statements that just aren't personal.  In any case, I'm sorry you feel attacked.  No one wants to feel as if their words or actions are less important than someone else's. 

[DeniseNJ]

Just want to jump in late and say congrats.  You can do ANYTHING you want now.  You can do whatever you want with your money.  You don't owe anybody anything.  That's amazing.  Whatever happens moving forward, no repo man gonna come after you!

Not to stir the pot, but I know some would prefer to be leveraged all the way, would even borrow against the house to invest in other places or borrow interest free on cc to invest and they make money.  But to me FI is all about freedom.  I've owed somebody something since I was 18 so to be able to do as I please with everything I have (aside from taxes of course) would be amazing.  Good for you!

[AnxietyFly]

"WE'RE DEDT FREE"... HAHAHA... I LOVE IT, I LOVE IT, I LOVE IT. You guys are weird!

[TomTX]

You do know what it means when you criticize the person instead of their arguments, right?

It betrays the weakness of their own position. It cannot stand on it's own.

[TomTX]

I think if you made your point once, it wouldn't be such a big deal.  But then you go on and on repeating yourself,

Pot, meet kettle.

[bmjohnson35]

As far as I am concerned, being debt free and having very low cost of living will be key for us to stay within the narrow range of income to fully utilize the ACA subsidies.

BJ

[RetiredAt63]

OP, congratulations.  It is a lovely feeling, having no mortgage.  And the money that went to mortgage payments can now be directed to other goals - like investments.  Or whatever else is needed in your family.  You are mustachian, you are not going to blow that extra cash flow.

One benefit no one has mentioned, that may be more important in my area, is that it makes selling your house easier.  No mortgage to pay off while you wait for your payment from the buyers, clearer title, less paperwork for your lawyer.

[dummy]

CONGRATS TO THE OP!!!

I bet it feels amazing!!  You just gave yourself a nice monthly raise equal to whatever your mortgage payments were!

[I-Ranger]

Disclaimer: While pre-paying your mortgage may feel good, it is often a suboptimal financial decision that can delay FIRE while putting you at greater risk of losing your home during the pre-payment period. It is strongly encouraged that you do the math on your own situation to have a full understanding before making such a major financial decision.

MMM, who paid off his mortgage, had this to say: "...I will grudgingly admit that you will probably do much better investing in Index funds rather than paying off your mortgage."

Here is an excellent educational thread on the subject: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/dont-payoff-your-mortgage-club/

[Taran Wanderer]

Seriously???

Rule #1:  Don’t be a jerk.
Rule #2:  See Rule #1.

Yes, you were correct.  That was directed at you.

Just go away already.

[TomTX]

Seriously???

Rule #1:  Don’t be a jerk.
Rule #2:  See Rule #1.

Yes, you were correct.  That was directed at you.

Just go away already.

Again the POYM club enforcers return to insults and demanding an ever expanding their "safe space."

Sad.

You get your own special POYM club thread, I stay out of it. But that's all.

Yet another derail where I only posted because a POYM evangelist is being (to use your own terminology) - a jerk, trying to take over the site and instigating trouble by starting the insults.

So, I suggest you take your own advice used in closing your post.

[I-Ranger]

Seriously???

Rule #1:  Don’t be a jerk.
Rule #2:  See Rule #1.

Yes, you were correct.  That was directed at you.

Just go away already.

It's an impersonal, informative disclaimer, that's all. Not sure how you found a way to be offended by it. 

[EngagedToFIRE]

Seriously???

Rule #1:  Don’t be a jerk.
Rule #2:  See Rule #1.

Yes, you were correct.  That was directed at you.

Just go away already.

It's an impersonal, informative disclaimer, that's all. Not sure how you found a way to be offended by it.

And entirely misleading.  You omitted other MMM comments that fully support paying off a mortgage.  And you are in total denial about the fact that paying off your mortgage COULD end up being the better bet.  With all of your evangelizing, are you going to cut mortgage checks to these people should your advice turn out wrong?

Quite frankly, with a paid off mortgage and no debt, most of these people are straight up FIRE or baristaFIRE.  WTF is wrong with that, to the point you need to shit all over this thread with your "disclaimers" and nonsense?

[I-Ranger]

Seriously???

Rule #1:  Don’t be a jerk.
Rule #2:  See Rule #1.

Yes, you were correct.  That was directed at you.

Just go away already.

It's an impersonal, informative disclaimer, that's all. Not sure how you found a way to be offended by it.

And entirely misleading.  You omitted other MMM comments that fully support paying off a mortgage.  And you are in total denial about the fact that paying off your mortgage COULD end up being the better bet.  With all of your evangelizing, are you going to cut mortgage checks to these people should your advice turn out wrong?

Quite frankly, with a paid off mortgage and no debt, most of these people are straight up FIRE or baristaFIRE.  WTF is wrong with that, to the point you need to shit all over this thread with your "disclaimers" and nonsense?

Not in denial at all, you imagined that part. Go read the disclaimer again, it says POYM is often suboptimal. Of course it makes sense to do it in certain situations, that's why I linked to the DPOYM club, because it's discussed there. 

[Radagast]

And entirely misleading.  You omitted other MMM comments that fully support paying off a mortgage.  And you are in total denial about the fact that paying off your mortgage COULD end up being the better bet.

Although, using Portfolio Visualizer to look at equal monthly payments into an approximation of Total World Stock Fund beginning at the tippitytop in March 2000, there were only 12 months at the depth of the financial crisis when your returns were less than 4% annualized. Not less than 0. Less than 4%.

I agree with you that saving in a balanced but growth-minded portfolio and eventually making a single large payment to get rid of the mortgage all at once is a reasonable choice. However, it would be hard to think of a case where somebody would be making a better financial choice by many early mortgage payments over several years, at the cost of both a relatively tiny "emergency" fund and lower likely returns over nearly any period. Sure it feels good to eliminate a debt payment, I've been there and done that. It also feels pretty good to have liquid savings larger than your mortgage and growing faster than it. Although technically I may be still a few months away from the "larger than" part depending how you count, but I can imagine :D.

I like the concept I recently came across that eliminating a low rate mortgage is a nice luxury for those who are already Financially Independent, but risky for those who are not there yet.

Anhyhoo I am not sure why this thread still pops up. At this point it has been pretty lite on both good will and information, and no progress is being made on any front.

[gaja]

Tip for @I-Ranger : if you add your disclaimer to your signature, you won’t have to write the same thing in every post. But I would suggest the following change:... it is often a suboptimal financial decision in the US since we don’t have wealth tax, we have access to very low cost and high yield index funds, and because we can lock into low interest rates for 30 years. In the rest of the world YMMV.”

I get that this forum is US-centric, and that is normally ok. But there are people from all over the world here, and it gets a bit annoying to read again and again about the one and true solution that everyone is stupid for not doing. Usually i’m able to mentally insert the invisible “in the US” behind the posts of “you are stupid if you don’t do this and that”. But it gets difficult after a while when someone is so sure they have found the Truth that they won’t stop nagging about it.

My mortgage is set up as a line of credit. That is where I store my emergency fund, and all types of short time savings. I’m definitely planning to “pay it down”, or rather get that account to zero so that I have a lot of credit available in case I want to buy som rental property, or something else. That way I can get mortgage interests on investment property, get away from the new property  investment regulations, and also deduct 100% of the interest in taxes.  With 0.2% wealth tax on the house and 0.76% on other investments, index funds are probably still more profitable right now. But we are looking at a very likely change in government in 2 years, and with that an increase in wealth tax. Also, we don’t lock into interest rates here, and they are steadily increasing. So long term, i’m pretty sure i’m right. And if the future looks different in 2 years, I will have a lot of cash available for index fund investment.

Student loans, on the other hand, are stupid to pay down early. They have an extremely low interest rate, and can easily be discharged if you get disability, move to the north, or just are poor. IRA type retirement savings are also stupid, since they are heavily taxed, and locked until 67. And by then I don’t need anymore money, since i’ll get a decent state pension (secured by the nbim.no).

[RetiredAt63]

Thanks for pointing this out, gaja. Putting money into investments or paying down a mortgage depends a lot on tax rules, which vary a lot by country. 

[DeniseNJ]

Student loans, on the other hand, are stupid to pay down early. They have an extremely low interest rate, and can easily be discharged if you get disability, move to the north, or just are poor.

Interesting.  I'm in the US and many student loans are federally subsidized and are not discharged even during bankruptcy.  The gov't will keep your tax returns and any other gov't funds if you default on a student loan.  I went to college 20 yrs ago and my loans had a high interest rate, which I consolidated and the rate was still 8%.  It took 20 yrs to pay off.  So there are many circumstances and countries where student loans should be paid off ASAP.  You are so right about rembering that we are from all parts of the world.   I often think that every place the US and all of it is NY--and all of NY is NYC, of course. :)

[Davnasty]

But there are people from all over the world here, and it gets a bit annoying to read again and again about the one and true solution that everyone is stupid for not doing. Usually i’m able to mentally insert the invisible “in the US” behind the posts of “you are stupid if you don’t do this and that”. But it gets difficult after a while when someone is so sure they have found the Truth that they won’t stop nagging about it.

This would certainly be annoying, but how many posters actually say this?*. Saying that it is often a suboptimal choice and reminding someone to consider a list of points is not calling them stupid or even telling them they're wrong.

I can't help but think those who have paid off their mortgage or are in the process of doing so read it as calling them stupid because they are emotionally invested in that decision. I've seen so many commenters on articles professing the awesomeness of high savings rates and compound interest take offense and respond as if the article is calling them stupid; I can't help but think those who have paid off their mortgage are having a similar reaction. In both cases it takes significant emotional strength to acknowledge that decisions that can't be undone may have been wrong.

*I've read the whole thread but maybe I missed something. I-Ranger's last "disclaimer" in particular was very gentle and to the point, and yet the next 2 responses included personal attacks.

[Davnasty]

Regarding the idea of casting doubt on someone's congratulations thread, I thought the very first comment was a little out of place, maybe even rude, but I am in favor of calling the premise out if there is good reason to do so. Sorry if that feels like rain on someone's parade. I know the OP may have simply meant "I've reached a milestone" and the decision to pay off the mortgage is a separate topic, but not everyone knows that so some readers less knowledgeable about the DPOYM argument could see this as supporting the idea of POYM = good.

If someone were to ask for congratulations on making $20K last year from their Uber side gig, wouldn't you have some questions? I mean sure, it should be approached without assumptions but it's completely fair to ask if they properly accounted for all of their expenses.

And based on some of the replies in this thread I think it's safe to say that even though some have fully weighed the pros/cons and decided to pay off the mortgage, there's also quite a few who are making incorrect assumptions about opportunity cost and tax benefits. They could benefit from a disclaimer.

CONGRATS TO THE OP!!!

I bet it feels amazing!!  You just gave yourself a nice monthly raise equal to whatever your mortgage payments were!

Ahhhhhhhh!!!! :)

[EngagedToFIRE]

And entirely misleading.  You omitted other MMM comments that fully support paying off a mortgage.  And you are in total denial about the fact that paying off your mortgage COULD end up being the better bet.

Although, using Portfolio Visualizer to look at equal monthly payments into an approximation of Total World Stock Fund beginning at the tippitytop in March 2000, there were only 12 months at the depth of the financial crisis when your returns were less than 4% annualized. Not less than 0. Less than 4%.

I agree with you that saving in a balanced but growth-minded portfolio and eventually making a single large payment to get rid of the mortgage all at once is a reasonable choice. However, it would be hard to think of a case where somebody would be making a better financial choice by many early mortgage payments over several years, at the cost of both a relatively tiny "emergency" fund and lower likely returns over nearly any period. Sure it feels good to eliminate a debt payment, I've been there and done that. It also feels pretty good to have liquid savings larger than your mortgage and growing faster than it. Although technically I may be still a few months away from the "larger than" part depending how you count, but I can imagine :D.

I like the concept I recently came across that eliminating a low rate mortgage is a nice luxury for those who are already Financially Independent, but risky for those who are not there yet.

Anhyhoo I am not sure why this thread still pops up. At this point it has been pretty lite on both good will and information, and no progress is being made on any front.

We are on the same page.  I don't advocate for paying off mortgages with small extra payments.  At the same time, you have to respect the human aspect of it.  I also see WAY too many people who save up $10k and blow it on a vacation.  They just can't handle having access to money.  So for some of these types of people, who are probably not FIRE types, those extra payments are probably smart.

It's been beat to death.  That HISTORICALLY it's been better to not pay off a mortgage.  I'd wager that it's probably better moving forward, too.  But nobody here knows the future.  Trade wars, real wars, the political climate is pretty wild right now, on a global scale.  Who the heck knows?  So for some people, taking the sure thing, getting out of debt and paying off a mortgage is a great idea.  Having no debt is almost instant barista FIRE.

Why can't we just appreciate all good financial decisions instead of being so judgy?

[EngagedToFIRE]

Regarding the idea of casting doubt on someone's congratulations thread, I thought the very first comment was a little out of place, maybe even rude, but I am in favor of calling the premise out if there is good reason to do so. Sorry if that feels like rain on someone's parade. I know the OP may have simply meant "I've reached a milestone" and the decision to pay off the mortgage is a separate topic, but not everyone knows that so some readers less knowledgeable about the DPOYM argument could see this as supporting the idea of POYM = good.

If someone were to ask for congratulations on making $20K last year from their Uber side gig, wouldn't you have some questions? I mean sure, it should be approached without assumptions but it's completely fair to ask if they properly accounted for all of their expenses.

And based on some of the replies in this thread I think it's safe to say that even though some have fully weighed the pros/cons and decided to pay off the mortgage, there's also quite a few who are making incorrect assumptions about opportunity cost and tax benefits. They could benefit from a disclaimer.

CONGRATS TO THE OP!!!

I bet it feels amazing!!  You just gave yourself a nice monthly raise equal to whatever your mortgage payments were!

Ahhhhhhhh!!!! :)

If someone was excited to share that they made $20k on their Uber side gig, and the first comment was something like "Your car is destroying the planet, this shouldn't be celebrated" - would you not have a bit of a "fuck off with that" type of thought in your head?  As in, fair point to make, this just ain't the place to make it.  Nobody here seems upset or offended by the idea of not paying off your mortgage and the debate surrounding it.  It's ALL a "time and place" thing.

[Davnasty]

Regarding the idea of casting doubt on someone's congratulations thread, I thought the very first comment was a little out of place, maybe even rude, but I am in favor of calling the premise out if there is good reason to do so. Sorry if that feels like rain on someone's parade. I know the OP may have simply meant "I've reached a milestone" and the decision to pay off the mortgage is a separate topic, but not everyone knows that so some readers less knowledgeable about the DPOYM argument could see this as supporting the idea of POYM = good.

If someone were to ask for congratulations on making $20K last year from their Uber side gig, wouldn't you have some questions? I mean sure, it should be approached without assumptions but it's completely fair to ask if they properly accounted for all of their expenses.

And based on some of the replies in this thread I think it's safe to say that even though some have fully weighed the pros/cons and decided to pay off the mortgage, there's also quite a few who are making incorrect assumptions about opportunity cost and tax benefits. They could benefit from a disclaimer.

CONGRATS TO THE OP!!!

I bet it feels amazing!!  You just gave yourself a nice monthly raise equal to whatever your mortgage payments were!

Ahhhhhhhh!!!! :)

If someone was excited to share that they made $20k on their Uber side gig, and the first comment was something like "Your car is destroying the planet, this shouldn't be celebrated" - would you not have a bit of a "fuck off with that" type of thought in your head?  As in, fair point to make, this just ain't the place to make it.  Nobody here seems upset or offended by the idea of not paying off your mortgage and the debate surrounding it.  It's ALL a "time and place" thing.

Yes, but discussing environmental consequences would be off topic from the financial subject of the thread. I think the analogy I gave above of questioning whether all costs were accounted for would be more similar and in that case I think it would be appropriate. If I was the one to ask that question, I'd probably make it a point to not be the first response though.

Then again, I just re-read OP and they specifically stated that they were familiar with the debate and that they felt paying off the mortgage was right for them. Given that information I think a disclaimer as I-Ranger presented above would have been appropriate and efree's response was not.

[OurTown]

Congrats to the OP, it must be a great feeling.  It took me awhile to figure out what to do on this subject.  The "Dave in Nashville" crowd takes this as an article of faith.  Personally, I know that I want it paid down to zero before I pull the trigger on FIRE.  Otherwise I would keep working until the end of the mortgage.  I also understand the arbitrage of investing instead of pre-paying if your interest rate is low enough.  (Mine is).  My personal plan is to invest, invest, invest until I reach the neighborhood of $1M, then save, save, save in a side account until I match the payoff number, then payoff and I'm done.  Others may have better plans, and that's okay.

[BlueHouse]

Why can't we just appreciate all good financial decisions instead of being so judgy?

^^^
The most sensible comment in this entire discussion. 

[EngagedToFIRE]

Regarding the idea of casting doubt on someone's congratulations thread, I thought the very first comment was a little out of place, maybe even rude, but I am in favor of calling the premise out if there is good reason to do so. Sorry if that feels like rain on someone's parade. I know the OP may have simply meant "I've reached a milestone" and the decision to pay off the mortgage is a separate topic, but not everyone knows that so some readers less knowledgeable about the DPOYM argument could see this as supporting the idea of POYM = good.

If someone were to ask for congratulations on making $20K last year from their Uber side gig, wouldn't you have some questions? I mean sure, it should be approached without assumptions but it's completely fair to ask if they properly accounted for all of their expenses.

And based on some of the replies in this thread I think it's safe to say that even though some have fully weighed the pros/cons and decided to pay off the mortgage, there's also quite a few who are making incorrect assumptions about opportunity cost and tax benefits. They could benefit from a disclaimer.

CONGRATS TO THE OP!!!

I bet it feels amazing!!  You just gave yourself a nice monthly raise equal to whatever your mortgage payments were!

Ahhhhhhhh!!!! :)

If someone was excited to share that they made $20k on their Uber side gig, and the first comment was something like "Your car is destroying the planet, this shouldn't be celebrated" - would you not have a bit of a "fuck off with that" type of thought in your head?  As in, fair point to make, this just ain't the place to make it.  Nobody here seems upset or offended by the idea of not paying off your mortgage and the debate surrounding it.  It's ALL a "time and place" thing.

Yes, but discussing environmental consequences would be off topic from the financial subject of the thread. I think the analogy I gave above of questioning whether all costs were accounted for would be more similar and in that case I think it would be appropriate. If I was the one to ask that question, I'd probably make it a point to not be the first response though.

Then again, I just re-read OP and they specifically stated that they were familiar with the debate and that they felt paying off the mortgage was right for them. Given that information I think a disclaimer as I-Ranger presented above would have been appropriate and efree's response was not.

Do you want to have a forum where people post "disclaimers" challenging others decisions all the time?  What a strange thing to do.  "I bought a bicycle" and here comes the "disclaimer crew" to show how sub-optimal that specific model bike was.  There is nothing appropriate about disguising the same tone and negative nonsense as a "disclaimer."

[EngagedToFIRE]

Congrats to the OP, it must be a great feeling.  It took me awhile to figure out what to do on this subject.  The "Dave in Nashville" crowd takes this as an article of faith.  Personally, I know that I want it paid down to zero before I pull the trigger on FIRE.  Otherwise I would keep working until the end of the mortgage.  I also understand the arbitrage of investing instead of pre-paying if your interest rate is low enough.  (Mine is).  My personal plan is to invest, invest, invest until I reach the neighborhood of $1M, then save, save, save in a side account until I match the payoff number, then payoff and I'm done.  Others may have better plans, and that's okay.

Good plan.  Especially if you have a super low interest rate on the mortgage.

[Davnasty]

Do you want to have a forum where people post "disclaimers" challenging others decisions all the time?  What a strange thing to do.  "I bought a bicycle" and here comes the "disclaimer crew" to show how sub-optimal that specific model bike was.  There is nothing appropriate about disguising the same tone and negative nonsense as a "disclaimer."

First, if it's a thread about bicycles then discussing pros and cons of bike types seems reasonable. Especially on a finance and life optimization forum such as this one. Challenging assumptions is a big part of this community, no?

But more importantly the decision to buy a bike is different than the decision to pay off a mortgage in a few major ways:

1) The impact of the decision is vastly different. A bike purchase may result in spending a few hundred dollars more than was necessary. The decision regarding a mortgage could mean 10's of thousands.
2) It's not about what someone chose to buy, it's how they chose to pay for it. Someone may choose a bike for looks. Same can be said of a house. A mortgage isn't subject to this kind of tangible criteria.
3) It's very plausible and I would argue likely that readers who aren't familiar with the pros/cons of paying a mortgage early will read a mortgage payoff congratulations thread and infer that paying off the mortgage early is an optimal decision supported by this community of financially literate people. Especially since that idea is supported by lots of other financial bloggers and gurus. I don't see that being an issue with bikes.

And besides all that, does a little disclaimer that might help someone reading along really hurt anybody? As long as no one responds to argue about how rude it is, it won't derail the thread.

[EngagedToFIRE]

Do you want to have a forum where people post "disclaimers" challenging others decisions all the time?  What a strange thing to do.  "I bought a bicycle" and here comes the "disclaimer crew" to show how sub-optimal that specific model bike was.  There is nothing appropriate about disguising the same tone and negative nonsense as a "disclaimer."

First, if it's a thread about bicycles then discussing pros and cons of bike types seems reasonable. Especially on a finance and life optimization forum such as this one. Challenging assumptions is a big part of this community, no?

But more importantly the decision to buy a bike is different than the decision to pay off a mortgage in a few major ways:

1) The impact of the decision is vastly different. A bike purchase may result in spending a few hundred dollars more than was necessary. The decision regarding a mortgage could mean 10's of thousands.
2) It's not about what someone chose to buy, it's how they chose to pay for it. Someone may choose a bike for looks. Same can be said of a house. A mortgage isn't subject to this kind of tangible criteria.
3) It's very plausible and I would argue likely that readers who aren't familiar with the pros/cons of paying a mortgage early will read a mortgage payoff congratulations thread and infer that paying off the mortgage early is an optimal decision supported by this community of financially literate people. Especially since that idea is supported by lots of other financial bloggers and gurus. I don't see that being an issue with bikes.

And besides all that, does a little disclaimer that might help someone reading along really hurt anybody? As long as no one responds to argue about how rude it is, it won't derail the thread.

Right, but above is just a biased statement thinly disguised as a disclaimer.  It links to the DPOYM club and cherry picks a MMM statement, which is misleading.  It's not helpful at all.  And I don't think we need people posting up biased "disclaimers" on threads as some sort of way out of being a jerk.  Hey, just call it a disclaimer and you can shit all over others threads!

[Davnasty]

Do you want to have a forum where people post "disclaimers" challenging others decisions all the time?  What a strange thing to do.  "I bought a bicycle" and here comes the "disclaimer crew" to show how sub-optimal that specific model bike was.  There is nothing appropriate about disguising the same tone and negative nonsense as a "disclaimer."

First, if it's a thread about bicycles then discussing pros and cons of bike types seems reasonable. Especially on a finance and life optimization forum such as this one. Challenging assumptions is a big part of this community, no?

But more importantly the decision to buy a bike is different than the decision to pay off a mortgage in a few major ways:

1) The impact of the decision is vastly different. A bike purchase may result in spending a few hundred dollars more than was necessary. The decision regarding a mortgage could mean 10's of thousands.
2) It's not about what someone chose to buy, it's how they chose to pay for it. Someone may choose a bike for looks. Same can be said of a house. A mortgage isn't subject to this kind of tangible criteria.
3) It's very plausible and I would argue likely that readers who aren't familiar with the pros/cons of paying a mortgage early will read a mortgage payoff congratulations thread and infer that paying off the mortgage early is an optimal decision supported by this community of financially literate people. Especially since that idea is supported by lots of other financial bloggers and gurus. I don't see that being an issue with bikes.

And besides all that, does a little disclaimer that might help someone reading along really hurt anybody? As long as no one responds to argue about how rude it is, it won't derail the thread.

Right, but above is just a biased statement thinly disguised as a disclaimer.  It links to the DPOYM club and cherry picks a MMM statement, which is misleading.  It's not helpful at all.  And I don't think we need people posting up biased "disclaimers" on threads as some sort of way out of being a jerk.  Hey, just call it a disclaimer and you can shit all over others threads!

Well, that's your interpretation and I'd disagree with it. I'd probably make some tweaks, but I think it does the job of acknowledging that a mortgage is not equivalent to "hair on fire" debt and encourages doing the math for yourself. That thread is a great resource and a good way to learn what math we're referring to. And I don't think he cherry-picked anything, it's called a "quote". Here's the source:

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/02/24/pay-down-the-mortgage-or-invest-more-a-winwin-question/

Can you provide context that changes the meaning of that quote?

Also, have you reconsidered this critique of the disclaimer:

Disclaimer: While pre-paying your mortgage may feel good, it is often a suboptimal financial decision that can delay FIRE while putting you at greater risk of losing your home during the pre-payment period

And you are in total denial about the fact that paying off your mortgage COULD end up being the better bet.

Not in denial at all, you imagined that part. Go read the disclaimer again, it says POYM is often suboptimal. Of course it makes sense to do it in certain situations, that's why I linked to the DPOYM club, because it's discussed there.

They even italicized often, what more do you want?

[I-Ranger]

As Dabnasty mentioned, the DPOYM Club thread is a great resource, and it includes instances of newcomers saying they ran their numbers and concluded that keeping the mortgage and investing instead was the path for them. And it also mentions some conditions under which POYM may be the better choice. It's pretty comprehensive and often entertaining, to boot.

I tried to make the disclaimer as inoffensive as possible, but when someone is starting from a place of "Anyone that says anything other than 'congrats!' on a POYM celebration thread is a jerk!", then I guess it appears biased and mean-spirited.

As another poster mentioned, it is US-centric, so I will add that caveat next time I post it. If anyone has any other tweaks that can improve it, I'd be happy to include them.

I'd imagine the vast, vast majority of people that join this forum do so after reading MMM's blog, so to me it's absolutely relevant to post his final assessment of POYM. I even mention that he POYM'ed, so, again, this accusation of bias is coming from somewhere other than reality.

If an impersonal, educational disclaimer can be agreed upon, then perhaps it can be posted to every stray POYM celebration thread and the back-and-forth of "jerk!" and "selfish, hypersensitive snowflake!" can be avoided. 

[achvfi]

If an impersonal, educational disclaimer can be agreed upon, then perhaps it can be posted to every stray POYM celebration thread and the back-and-forth of "jerk!" and "selfish, hypersensitive snowflake!" can be avoided. 

Man you are a persistent troll! Get a life. So you learnt that Paying off mortgage early is inefficient in last few months, good for you. Personally I am not paying off my mortgage either. That doesn't make you an expert in peoples infinite situations.

You made your point but whats point being so militant, pooping on OP and others celebrations. Its important we all celebrate big and small achievements. What you are doing is just turning people off from sharing their life experiences. 

Be a fountain, don't be a drain.

[I-Ranger]

If an impersonal, educational disclaimer can be agreed upon, then perhaps it can be posted to every stray POYM celebration thread and the back-and-forth of "jerk!" and "selfish, hypersensitive snowflake!" can be avoided. 

Man you are a persistent troll! Get a life. So you learnt that Paying off mortgage early is inefficient in last few months, good for you. Personally I am not paying off my mortgage either. That doesn't make you an expert in peoples infinite situations.

You made your point but whats point being so militant, pooping on OP and others celebrations. Its important we all celebrate big and small achievements. What you are doing is just turning people off from sharing their life experiences. 

Be a fountain, don't be a drain.

Did you even read the disclaimer? If you had, you'd clearly see that I don't claim to be an "expert in peoples infinite situation" and if fact I emphasized POYM is often suboptimal, not always suboptimal. But, you are entitled to your delusions.

I'm just prioritizing education over celebration, if you take that as pooping on them, that's your choice.

[achvfi]

I thought I made up this term "Persistent troll". Just learned that its a well known form of trolling.

The Persistent Debate Troll
This type of troll loves a good argument. They can take a great, thoroughly researched and fact-based piece of content, and come at it from all opposing discussion angles to challenge its message. They believe they're right, and everyone else is wrong. You'll often also find them leaving long threads or arguments with other commenters in community comment sections, and they're always determined to have the last word – continuing to comment until that other user gives up.

[I-Ranger]

I thought I made up this term "Persistent troll". Just learned that its a well known form of trolling.

The Persistent Debate Troll
This type of troll loves a good argument. They can take a great, thoroughly researched and fact-based piece of content, and come at it from all opposing discussion angles to challenge its message. They believe they're right, and everyone else is wrong. You'll often also find them leaving long threads or arguments with other commenters in community comment sections, and they're always determined to have the last word – continuing to comment until that other user gives up.

That's pretty cool. Did you read the disclaimer yet? Or are you just trolling?

[Davnasty]

I thought I made up this term "Persistent troll". Just learned that its a well known form of trolling.

The Persistent Debate Troll
This type of troll loves a good argument. They can take a great, thoroughly researched and fact-based piece of content, and come at it from all opposing discussion angles to challenge its message. They believe they're right, and everyone else is wrong. You'll often also find them leaving long threads or arguments with other commenters in community comment sections, and they're always determined to have the last word – continuing to comment until that other user gives up.

What content is being challenged?

It has a definition, but that definition doesn't apply here.

[BlueHouse]

And besides all that, does a little disclaimer that might help someone reading along really hurt anybody? As long as no one responds to argue about how rude it is, it won't derail the thread.

The OP's very first comment included a disclaimer.  So there's no need to pile on.  Not only that, but it included a request to treat this thread as a celebration. 
Why can't you guys just respect those wishes?   

Let’s celebrate, not hate!  I realize that paying off a mortgage early is a divisive topic, but I felt it was necessary for my wife and me.  We paid off our vehicles, student loans, any remaining medical bills, and have no credit card debt.

I’m writing this because I can only tell a few far away friends in real life.  Our families would assume we are rich and would do the obvious.  I’m not funding someone else’s lavish lifestyle when I’ve sacrificed so much and lived without new or expensive items.

I’d also like to see what suggestions the group can give on what to do next.  Obviously, I have gone out of order in a way.

[Davnasty]

And besides all that, does a little disclaimer that might help someone reading along really hurt anybody? As long as no one responds to argue about how rude it is, it won't derail the thread.

The OP's very first comment included a disclaimer.  So there's no need to pile on.  Not only that, but it included a request to treat this thread as a celebration. 
Why can't you guys just respect those wishes?   

Let’s celebrate, not hate!  I realize that paying off a mortgage early is a divisive topic, but I felt it was necessary for my wife and me.  We paid off our vehicles, student loans, any remaining medical bills, and have no credit card debt.

I’m writing this because I can only tell a few far away friends in real life.  Our families would assume we are rich and would do the obvious.  I’m not funding someone else’s lavish lifestyle when I’ve sacrificed so much and lived without new or expensive items.

I’d also like to see what suggestions the group can give on what to do next.  Obviously, I have gone out of order in a way.

Yes, I agree that OP gave enough of a disclaimer to clue new readers in that there is a debate on the topic making efree's original comment even more uncalled for, but at this point the discussion is about more than this thread. I only joined in because we were already on page 4 and it seems goalphish has left the building.

Ideally someone would have started a new thread to discuss the more general topic of a mortgage payoff celebration disclaimer but I've found when I try to redirect to new threads most of the participants in the conversation drop out. I don't think continuing a discussion on the end of a used up thread is really piling on once the topic has changed.

But if goalphish is still reading, congratulations on reaching this milestone!

[BlueHouse]

And besides all that, does a little disclaimer that might help someone reading along really hurt anybody? As long as no one responds to argue about how rude it is, it won't derail the thread.

The OP's very first comment included a disclaimer.  So there's no need to pile on.  Not only that, but it included a request to treat this thread as a celebration. 
Why can't you guys just respect those wishes?   

Let’s celebrate, not hate!  I realize that paying off a mortgage early is a divisive topic, but I felt it was necessary for my wife and me.  We paid off our vehicles, student loans, any remaining medical bills, and have no credit card debt.

I’m writing this because I can only tell a few far away friends in real life.  Our families would assume we are rich and would do the obvious.  I’m not funding someone else’s lavish lifestyle when I’ve sacrificed so much and lived without new or expensive items.

I’d also like to see what suggestions the group can give on what to do next.  Obviously, I have gone out of order in a way.

Yes, I agree that OP gave enough of a disclaimer to clue new readers in that there is a debate on the topic making efree's original comment even more uncalled for, but at this point the discussion is about more than this thread. I only joined in because we were already on page 4 and it seems goalphish has left the building.

Ideally someone would have started a new thread to discuss the more general topic of a mortgage payoff celebration disclaimer but I've found when I try to redirect to new threads most of the participants in the conversation drop out. I don't think continuing a discussion on the end of a used up thread is really piling on once the topic has changed.

But if goalphish is still reading, congratulations on reaching this milestone!

Fair enough.  And I think you're right that most people drop out of new threads because (in my case), I just don't want to debate it anymore.  I've now heard every argument from both sides and the topic gets old real fast.  I appreciated hearing about the pros and cons and whenever there is a new study on it, of course I appreciate hearing that too.  But until then, it's just rehashing the same.  I do think the debate topics are very instructional for newbies. 

[I-Ranger]

And besides all that, does a little disclaimer that might help someone reading along really hurt anybody? As long as no one responds to argue about how rude it is, it won't derail the thread.

The OP's very first comment included a disclaimer.  So there's no need to pile on.  Not only that, but it included a request to treat this thread as a celebration. 
Why can't you guys just respect those wishes?   

Let’s celebrate, not hate!  I realize that paying off a mortgage early is a divisive topic, but I felt it was necessary for my wife and me.  We paid off our vehicles, student loans, any remaining medical bills, and have no credit card debt.

I’m writing this because I can only tell a few far away friends in real life.  Our families would assume we are rich and would do the obvious.  I’m not funding someone else’s lavish lifestyle when I’ve sacrificed so much and lived without new or expensive items.

I’d also like to see what suggestions the group can give on what to do next.  Obviously, I have gone out of order in a way.

Your post reeks of privilege. You may have a lot of financial knowledge, but you should realize there are people that come to this site with literally no knowledge of whether POYM is right for them. To deny them the chance to learn because of an internet "celebration" is selfish and inexcusable. Not everybody has it as easy as you do, so try to put yourself in their shoes before declaring that their learning is not important.

[solon]

And besides all that, does a little disclaimer that might help someone reading along really hurt anybody? As long as no one responds to argue about how rude it is, it won't derail the thread.

The OP's very first comment included a disclaimer.  So there's no need to pile on.  Not only that, but it included a request to treat this thread as a celebration. 
Why can't you guys just respect those wishes?   

Let’s celebrate, not hate!  I realize that paying off a mortgage early is a divisive topic, but I felt it was necessary for my wife and me.  We paid off our vehicles, student loans, any remaining medical bills, and have no credit card debt.

I’m writing this because I can only tell a few far away friends in real life.  Our families would assume we are rich and would do the obvious.  I’m not funding someone else’s lavish lifestyle when I’ve sacrificed so much and lived without new or expensive items.

I’d also like to see what suggestions the group can give on what to do next.  Obviously, I have gone out of order in a way.

Your post reeks of privilege. You may have a lot of financial knowledge, but you should realize there are people that come to this site with literally no knowledge of whether POYM is right for them. To deny them the chance to learn because of an internet "celebration" is selfish and inexcusable. Not everybody has it as easy as you do, so try to put yourself in their shoes before declaring that their learning is not important.

You are disqualified for argumentum ad privilegium. The instant you throw the word privilege around, we tune out.

[I-Ranger]

And besides all that, does a little disclaimer that might help someone reading along really hurt anybody? As long as no one responds to argue about how rude it is, it won't derail the thread.

The OP's very first comment included a disclaimer.  So there's no need to pile on.  Not only that, but it included a request to treat this thread as a celebration. 
Why can't you guys just respect those wishes?   

Let’s celebrate, not hate!  I realize that paying off a mortgage early is a divisive topic, but I felt it was necessary for my wife and me.  We paid off our vehicles, student loans, any remaining medical bills, and have no credit card debt.

I’m writing this because I can only tell a few far away friends in real life.  Our families would assume we are rich and would do the obvious.  I’m not funding someone else’s lavish lifestyle when I’ve sacrificed so much and lived without new or expensive items.

I’d also like to see what suggestions the group can give on what to do next.  Obviously, I have gone out of order in a way.

Your post reeks of privilege. You may have a lot of financial knowledge, but you should realize there are people that come to this site with literally no knowledge of whether POYM is right for them. To deny them the chance to learn because of an internet "celebration" is selfish and inexcusable. Not everybody has it as easy as you do, so try to put yourself in their shoes before declaring that their learning is not important.

You are disqualified for argumentum ad privilegium. The instant you throw the word privilege around, we tune out.

It was tongue-in-cheek, specifically because Blue House loves the word "privilege". I guess we all must tune Blue House out now. :)

[EngagedToFIRE]

Do you want to have a forum where people post "disclaimers" challenging others decisions all the time?  What a strange thing to do.  "I bought a bicycle" and here comes the "disclaimer crew" to show how sub-optimal that specific model bike was.  There is nothing appropriate about disguising the same tone and negative nonsense as a "disclaimer."

First, if it's a thread about bicycles then discussing pros and cons of bike types seems reasonable. Especially on a finance and life optimization forum such as this one. Challenging assumptions is a big part of this community, no?

But more importantly the decision to buy a bike is different than the decision to pay off a mortgage in a few major ways:

1) The impact of the decision is vastly different. A bike purchase may result in spending a few hundred dollars more than was necessary. The decision regarding a mortgage could mean 10's of thousands.
2) It's not about what someone chose to buy, it's how they chose to pay for it. Someone may choose a bike for looks. Same can be said of a house. A mortgage isn't subject to this kind of tangible criteria.
3) It's very plausible and I would argue likely that readers who aren't familiar with the pros/cons of paying a mortgage early will read a mortgage payoff congratulations thread and infer that paying off the mortgage early is an optimal decision supported by this community of financially literate people. Especially since that idea is supported by lots of other financial bloggers and gurus. I don't see that being an issue with bikes.

And besides all that, does a little disclaimer that might help someone reading along really hurt anybody? As long as no one responds to argue about how rude it is, it won't derail the thread.

Right, but above is just a biased statement thinly disguised as a disclaimer.  It links to the DPOYM club and cherry picks a MMM statement, which is misleading.  It's not helpful at all.  And I don't think we need people posting up biased "disclaimers" on threads as some sort of way out of being a jerk.  Hey, just call it a disclaimer and you can shit all over others threads!

Well, that's your interpretation and I'd disagree with it. I'd probably make some tweaks, but I think it does the job of acknowledging that a mortgage is not equivalent to "hair on fire" debt and encourages doing the math for yourself. That thread is a great resource and a good way to learn what math we're referring to. And I don't think he cherry-picked anything, it's called a "quote". Here's the source:

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/02/24/pay-down-the-mortgage-or-invest-more-a-winwin-question/

Can you provide context that changes the meaning of that quote?

Also, have you reconsidered this critique of the disclaimer:

Disclaimer: While pre-paying your mortgage may feel good, it is often a suboptimal financial decision that can delay FIRE while putting you at greater risk of losing your home during the pre-payment period

And you are in total denial about the fact that paying off your mortgage COULD end up being the better bet.

Not in denial at all, you imagined that part. Go read the disclaimer again, it says POYM is often suboptimal. Of course it makes sense to do it in certain situations, that's why I linked to the DPOYM club, because it's discussed there.

They even italicized often, what more do you want?

Of course it's a cherry picked quote.  Because MMM has had plenty of other things to say about paying off your mortgage.  So cherry picking that one statement implies that MMM thinks you shouldn't pay off your mortgage.  In reality, MMM has seemingly been a bit neutral on it.  That disclaimer is not neutral at all and has strong DPOYM bias, while using MMM to give it credibility.  How about we add this Disclaimer to the Disclaimer...

"Whatever the reason, mortgage freedom tends to deliver long-lasting happiness to many of those who buy it, which makes it one of the better ways to spend money in my book."
- Mr Money Mustache.

So sure, I guess we just need diclaimers for disclaimers, and then more disclaimers for those disclaimers... and soon enough you just end up with people arguing all the same, disguising it as a disclaimer, but still just being assholes and shitting all over celebratory threads.  MMM clearly wrote that mortgage freedom should be celebrated.  This is the MMM site.  We don't need disclaimers implying the person celebrating is an idiot.  Don't be a jerk.  Rule #1.  It's pretty simple.

[EngagedToFIRE]

And besides all that, does a little disclaimer that might help someone reading along really hurt anybody? As long as no one responds to argue about how rude it is, it won't derail the thread.

The OP's very first comment included a disclaimer.  So there's no need to pile on.  Not only that, but it included a request to treat this thread as a celebration. 
Why can't you guys just respect those wishes?   

Let’s celebrate, not hate!  I realize that paying off a mortgage early is a divisive topic, but I felt it was necessary for my wife and me.  We paid off our vehicles, student loans, any remaining medical bills, and have no credit card debt.

I’m writing this because I can only tell a few far away friends in real life.  Our families would assume we are rich and would do the obvious.  I’m not funding someone else’s lavish lifestyle when I’ve sacrificed so much and lived without new or expensive items.

I’d also like to see what suggestions the group can give on what to do next.  Obviously, I have gone out of order in a way.

Your post reeks of privilege. You may have a lot of financial knowledge, but you should realize there are people that come to this site with literally no knowledge of whether POYM is right for them. To deny them the chance to learn because of an internet "celebration" is selfish and inexcusable. Not everybody has it as easy as you do, so try to put yourself in their shoes before declaring that their learning is not important.

I sure hope they would read more than a single celebratory thread before making such a decision.  For example, maybe since it's the MMM site, they would consider reading the MMM blog about that very topic.  The idea that we need disclaimers on other peoples celebratory posts is absurd on every level.  Especially when it's celebrating something that MMM himself is worth celebrating.

[I-Ranger]

And besides all that, does a little disclaimer that might help someone reading along really hurt anybody? As long as no one responds to argue about how rude it is, it won't derail the thread.

The OP's very first comment included a disclaimer.  So there's no need to pile on.  Not only that, but it included a request to treat this thread as a celebration. 
Why can't you guys just respect those wishes?   

Let’s celebrate, not hate!  I realize that paying off a mortgage early is a divisive topic, but I felt it was necessary for my wife and me.  We paid off our vehicles, student loans, any remaining medical bills, and have no credit card debt.

I’m writing this because I can only tell a few far away friends in real life.  Our families would assume we are rich and would do the obvious.  I’m not funding someone else’s lavish lifestyle when I’ve sacrificed so much and lived without new or expensive items.

I’d also like to see what suggestions the group can give on what to do next.  Obviously, I have gone out of order in a way.

Your post reeks of privilege. You may have a lot of financial knowledge, but you should realize there are people that come to this site with literally no knowledge of whether POYM is right for them. To deny them the chance to learn because of an internet "celebration" is selfish and inexcusable. Not everybody has it as easy as you do, so try to put yourself in their shoes before declaring that their learning is not important.

I sure hope they would read more than a single celebratory thread before making such a decision.  For example, maybe since it's the MMM site, they would consider reading the MMM blog about that very topic.  The idea that we need disclaimers on other peoples celebratory posts is absurd on every level.  Especially when it's celebrating something that MMM himself is worth celebrating.

To me, absurd is thinking your internet back pat is more important than someone new learning critical financial information, but we can agree to disagree.

[EngagedToFIRE]

And besides all that, does a little disclaimer that might help someone reading along really hurt anybody? As long as no one responds to argue about how rude it is, it won't derail the thread.

The OP's very first comment included a disclaimer.  So there's no need to pile on.  Not only that, but it included a request to treat this thread as a celebration. 
Why can't you guys just respect those wishes?   

Let’s celebrate, not hate!  I realize that paying off a mortgage early is a divisive topic, but I felt it was necessary for my wife and me.  We paid off our vehicles, student loans, any remaining medical bills, and have no credit card debt.

I’m writing this because I can only tell a few far away friends in real life.  Our families would assume we are rich and would do the obvious.  I’m not funding someone else’s lavish lifestyle when I’ve sacrificed so much and lived without new or expensive items.

I’d also like to see what suggestions the group can give on what to do next.  Obviously, I have gone out of order in a way.

Your post reeks of privilege. You may have a lot of financial knowledge, but you should realize there are people that come to this site with literally no knowledge of whether POYM is right for them. To deny them the chance to learn because of an internet "celebration" is selfish and inexcusable. Not everybody has it as easy as you do, so try to put yourself in their shoes before declaring that their learning is not important.

I sure hope they would read more than a single celebratory thread before making such a decision.  For example, maybe since it's the MMM site, they would consider reading the MMM blog about that very topic.  The idea that we need disclaimers on other peoples celebratory posts is absurd on every level.  Especially when it's celebrating something that MMM himself is worth celebrating.

To me, absurd is thinking your internet back pat is more important than someone new learning critical financial information, but we can agree to disagree.

Time. And. Place.  Since it clearly doesn't stick.  Maybe you can just be the leader of the disclaimer crew.  I'll nominate you for the position.  You can closely monitor the threads for anything suboptimal and post disclaimers warning all readers about how stupid the OP is.  Bought the wrong year Nissan Leaf.  Disclaimer.  Not an investment strategy that YOU think is right?  Disclaimer.  Wrong water heater?  Disclaimer.  Bought an iPhone instead of Android?  Disclaimer.

Why do you actually need someone to explain to you that posting disclaimers and arguing about mortgage payments on a thread celebrating debt freedom is being a jerk?  And not only that, but having people shitposting disclaimers all over the forum is kind of a turn off for anyone actually visiting and trying to enjoy the community.  It's divisive, disruptive, argumentative.  But you keep trolling and trolling.  Why?

[HBFIRE]

Stop feeding the obvious troll.

[EngagedToFIRE]

Stop feeding the obvious troll.

Agreed.  I'm adding them to my ignore list.

[I-Ranger]

And besides all that, does a little disclaimer that might help someone reading along really hurt anybody? As long as no one responds to argue about how rude it is, it won't derail the thread.

The OP's very first comment included a disclaimer.  So there's no need to pile on.  Not only that, but it included a request to treat this thread as a celebration. 
Why can't you guys just respect those wishes?   

Let’s celebrate, not hate!  I realize that paying off a mortgage early is a divisive topic, but I felt it was necessary for my wife and me.  We paid off our vehicles, student loans, any remaining medical bills, and have no credit card debt.

I’m writing this because I can only tell a few far away friends in real life.  Our families would assume we are rich and would do the obvious.  I’m not funding someone else’s lavish lifestyle when I’ve sacrificed so much and lived without new or expensive items.

I’d also like to see what suggestions the group can give on what to do next.  Obviously, I have gone out of order in a way.

Your post reeks of privilege. You may have a lot of financial knowledge, but you should realize there are people that come to this site with literally no knowledge of whether POYM is right for them. To deny them the chance to learn because of an internet "celebration" is selfish and inexcusable. Not everybody has it as easy as you do, so try to put yourself in their shoes before declaring that their learning is not important.

I sure hope they would read more than a single celebratory thread before making such a decision.  For example, maybe since it's the MMM site, they would consider reading the MMM blog about that very topic.  The idea that we need disclaimers on other peoples celebratory posts is absurd on every level.  Especially when it's celebrating something that MMM himself is worth celebrating.

To me, absurd is thinking your internet back pat is more important than someone new learning critical financial information, but we can agree to disagree.

Time. And. Place.  Since it clearly doesn't stick.  Maybe you can just be the leader of the disclaimer crew.  I'll nominate you for the position.  You can closely monitor the threads for anything suboptimal and post disclaimers warning all readers about how stupid the OP is.  Bought the wrong year Nissan Leaf.  Disclaimer.  Not an investment strategy that YOU think is right?  Disclaimer.  Wrong water heater?  Disclaimer.  Bought an iPhone instead of Android?  Disclaimer.

Why do you actually need someone to explain to you that posting disclaimers and arguing about mortgage payments on a thread celebrating debt freedom is being a jerk?  And not only that, but having people shitposting disclaimers all over the forum is kind of a turn off for anyone actually visiting and trying to enjoy the community.  It's divisive, disruptive, argumentative.  But you keep trolling and trolling.  Why?

No, I'll just keep the disclaimer to major, major decisions like mortgages.

You obviously think internet back pats are more important than new readers learning about POYM. We get it. Keep arguing for it, you're making yourself look great.

Saving someone from making even one extra mortgage payment when they don't have to is worth "shitposting", sorry.

[Taran Wanderer]

"I work in an office with someone who is a badge-carrying member of the grammar police. While he gets the satisfaction of defending the English language from abusers, he is thoroughly detested for it by the rest of the team."