Author Topic: Ignorant food consumers  (Read 30157 times)

Raenia

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #50 on: May 08, 2017, 06:33:37 PM »
I never could stomach eating bugs - my roommates at my last place had a tank of mealworms they made into all sorts of things, but I just couldn't get over the idea of it.  On the other hand, one of the best things I've ever done as far as understanding food is raising rabbits.  For about a year, we bred, raised, and slaughtered our own rabbits.  Almost completely replaced store-bought chicken for a while there.  I did all the skinning and butchering myself, and boy do I appreciate where meat comes from more now.  Sadly my current place doesn't have a yard, so I had to end that project when I moved, and my BF says he doesn't like the taste of rabbit, so we probably won't start up again even when we have space.  I'm definitely looking forward to having chickens someday, though - though the feathers will be a poor substitute for the furs I learned to tan, the eggs will probably make up the difference, utility wise.

Civex

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #51 on: May 08, 2017, 07:27:42 PM »
We have fresh herbs growing in the garden now, from seeds. Otherwise we have planted the stems of spring onions, a garlic fed and tomatoe slices and this is all growing into plants.

About the original example: I would love to try "chicken" made from a fungus. I have also understood that veggie burger nowadays taste pretty good. Last I checked they were made of lentils.

I generally try to eat a bit less meat. At least one dinner without meat a day. We also regularly eat self-caught food, like fish and mushrooms.

Interestingly enough I was listening to a podcast yesterday about the current crop of meat substitutes. Beyond Meat and Impossible foods both have launched burger patties that supposedly are very close to ground beef, enough that blind tests could fool some. The impossible burger one actually has plant derived heme in it to attempt to satisfy the flesh craving, they can be cooked fairly rare. With that said, the meat analogues are highly processed foods, and IMO are most useful if someone want to be vegetarian/vegan and is just so used to eating meat they need a replacement.

Along the same lines the podcast talked about Memphis Meats which is an SF startup that is growing real meat with stem cells from animals. They've actually done it with chicken and I think beef or pork. It's prohibitively expensive now (like $18k pound of meat) but they are planning on launching consumer priced lab grown meat in 2021. This could end factory farming of live animals *IF* people can get past the 'dats unnatural' factor which isn't insignificant. Although I don't know how it's worse than hormone laden cows eating corn and waste standing knee deep in shit, I guess we'll see how it plays out. On the subject of this thread, how would a consumer of this lab grown meat be seen? Cause you're not definitely not producing it yourself or can even understand how it's done?

They also talked about converting land used for animal feed to grazing land and trying to move all meat prod back to organic grass feed grazed, etc. But the numbers just don't work out unless meat consumption were MASSIVELY reduced.

I've had a chance to try the new Beyond Meat burgers and I found them to be quite good. I've followed a plant based diet for about 4 years now, but grew on up a on beef ranch. You touched on the potential market and in my case, I don't want to eat meat anymore, but every now and then, frying up a burger sounds great- this provides a good alternative to a black bean or wild rice patty burger. In a blind taste test, I would say the average burger consumer would be hard pressed to tell the difference if they both had toppings. They don't brown the same as a real burger and almost look undercooked (very pink.)

shelivesthedream

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #52 on: May 09, 2017, 02:10:17 AM »
Oh yeah, and stop freaking out about protein. You don't need that much. :D

This always makes me want to simultaneously laugh and smack someone. It's like, "Grrrrrr, I'm so tough and rugged I just NEED to eat platefuls of raw meat every day just to stay ALIVE!" Lol, srsly. No one in a developed country above the poverty line who can list three non-meat sources of protein and occasionally thinks about it in passing is going to be protein deficient.

I have cousins who have died due to lack of an aminoacid that is mainly obtained from red meat. Could you please explain why that is a laughing matter, or your reason for smacking my family of meat eaters? Carnitine transporter deficiency is common in my family, and since I care more about keeping my daughters healthy and alive than about your opinion, I probably would keep to our diet anyway, but it would be interesting to hear your reasoning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemic_primary_carnitine_deficiency

It's pretty obvious shelives was talking about cultural overconsumption of protein rather than people with a medical condition that .00001% of the population has. No need to look for offense when none was intended.

My original post about it is similar to shelives. Actual protein requirements are WAY lower than most Americans think they are, and heavy meat consumption, especially the factory farmed kind can have serious health implications.

About the heme in the impossible burger, from the horse's mouth:

http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/02/11/514544431/saving-the-planet-one-burger-at-a-time-this-juicy-patty-is-meat-free

"The Impossible Burger, as it's known, is the culmination of a dream for Pat Brown. For 25 years, Brown was a professor at Stanford University. He was one of the stars in his field, studying a range of biomedical topics."......

"Heme is responsible for the bloody flavor of raw meat, and you generate this explosion of flavor and raw meat when you cook it," Brown explains.

"He says discovering this was the key to his quest, because it turns out that plants have heme, too, but in very small amounts. For instance, soybeans have heme in their roots.

So to re-create the taste of beef, Brown had to figure out how to produce heme from plants in vast amounts. To do that, he and the scientists he works with isolated the gene that produces heme in soybeans and put it in yeast, which ferments in a big steel tank."


Yeah, wow, clearly I worded my post really badly if it sounded like I was making fun of your family. What I meant was how ridiculous it is that your average Joe/Jane in a country like the UK seriously thinks they might be protein deficient, and how that arises out of outdated nutritional ideas about protein (I think this link explains it: https://drgeoffnutrition.wordpress.com/2016/12/07/the-protein-gap-one-of-the-biggest-errors-in-nutritional-science/). Because honestly, average Joe/Jane says things like, "Oh no, I have to eat meat at every meal to get enough protein" or "Isn't it dangerous to be vegetarian, because you won't get enough protein?" As if eggs, cheese, beans and nuts somehow magically don't exist, or no vegetable ever has even the tiniest micron of protein. Or the former sources just won't be ENOUGH because they're so RUGGED. As if people like vegetarian Indian farmers (no meat but lots of manual labour) ought to just not exist. I was vegetaian for seven years (now eat everything) and people talked a lot of shit about protein deficiency. They should be way more concerned about iron deficiency (vegetarian or not!). But if you don't want to be vegetarian just... don't? No need to hide behind some protein-worry-nonsense. But yeah, obviously #notallmeateaters, etc.

ETA: I hope I don't come across generally on this forum as the kind of person who would make fun of actual medical conditions, or who is excessively absolutist and dogmatic and lacks nuance. Because if I do then I clearly need to have a think about my priorities in life.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 02:14:08 AM by shelivesthedream »

Torran

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #53 on: May 09, 2017, 04:19:31 AM »
Ooh I like this thread a LOT.

My boyfriend goes hunting when he's camping and I'm ashamed to say my initial reaction, when first we met, was to be slightly horrified. That he would kill a bunny. And then eat it. But I EAT MEAT! What a hypocrite!
So, two years down the line, and after much guilty consideration, I've asked to come along and join in with the hunting and eating of a rabbit. Or give up eating meat. One or the other. I have to align my values somehow, and if I want to keep eating meat, I have to know what it's like to actually kill the animal I'm going to eat.

Aside from the ethics of meat eating, I have many thoughts on the deliciousness of all foods, and feel really sad when people write off any kind of food as 'gross'.

My granddad used to tell us that eating mouldy cheese was good for us, which I think was him just enjoying pranking us. He also ate a fish eye in front of me because I said it was disgusting to eat the head of the fish. It still tickles me to think of that now. He had no fear when it came to food.


Linda_Norway

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #54 on: May 09, 2017, 04:57:54 AM »
Ooh I like this thread a LOT.

My boyfriend goes hunting when he's camping and I'm ashamed to say my initial reaction, when first we met, was to be slightly horrified. That he would kill a bunny. And then eat it. But I EAT MEAT! What a hypocrite!
So, two years down the line, and after much guilty consideration, I've asked to come along and join in with the hunting and eating of a rabbit. Or give up eating meat. One or the other. I have to align my values somehow, and if I want to keep eating meat, I have to know what it's like to actually kill the animal I'm going to eat.

Aside from the ethics of meat eating, I have many thoughts on the deliciousness of all foods, and feel really sad when people write off any kind of food as 'gross'.

My granddad used to tell us that eating mouldy cheese was good for us, which I think was him just enjoying pranking us. He also ate a fish eye in front of me because I said it was disgusting to eat the head of the fish. It still tickles me to think of that now. He had no fear when it came to food.

Yes, there is a difference between buying meat in the grocery store and catching and slaughtering it yourself. I sometimes catch fish and sometimes kill it for food. I always feel a bit bad about killing it and do apologize to the fish. But as long as we eat it, this should be OK.

This summer I was really provoked. I was in the north of Norway, on holiday. In the evening, a German car stopped and a woman send her son out to throw fish into the sea. He had a pile of 3 BIG cods, like 8-10 kgs each. And they were thrown into the sea. I guess the mother had her caravan full of fish already and didn't know where to put it. But obviously father and sun don't stop fishing for that. So they catch and throw the dead fish away! When I do catch and release sometimes in a mountain lake, I make sure the fish stays well alive when it is put back.

gaja

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #55 on: May 09, 2017, 05:59:07 AM »
@Shelivesadream: There is a Norwegian expression that someone "stepped on (long) sore toes". It means that most people have something that they have already received enough criticism about, and will react out of proportion to (perceived) new criticism. For me, my diet rich in red meat is one of those sore toes, and I'm sorry for attacking. But I also honestly  feel there is far too much dogmatic speech on this subject. There is a substantial number of people who do need more protein in their diets than the average person, and explaining that in all types of situations gets tiresome. Especially now, when the climate and environmental lobby also fight for less meat consumption. If you had added a "most" somewhere in your text, I would probably have smiled and nodded in agreement.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #56 on: May 09, 2017, 07:49:47 AM »
@Shelivesadream: There is a Norwegian expression that someone "stepped on (long) sore toes". It means that most people have something that they have already received enough criticism about, and will react out of proportion to (perceived) new criticism. For me, my diet rich in red meat is one of those sore toes, and I'm sorry for attacking. But I also honestly  feel there is far too much dogmatic speech on this subject. There is a substantial number of people who do need more protein in their diets than the average person, and explaining that in all types of situations gets tiresome. Especially now, when the climate and environmental lobby also fight for less meat consumption. If you had added a "most" somewhere in your text, I would probably have smiled and nodded in agreement.

You know, I probably have long sore toes about the "inadequate" amount of protein I eat, so in overreaction terms it's probably six of one and half a dozen of the other :)

Saskatchewstachian

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #57 on: May 09, 2017, 07:51:02 AM »
Sounds terrible - although liver is not my favorite dish - it is great, if properly prepared:

Calf liver from a grass fed calf - marinated in buttermilk to make it nice and tender and get rid of the smell - toss the marinade and then season with salt and pepper, roll in a dusting of flour - then sauteed with tons of fresh sweet onions, yum.
If you prefer, marinate in milk, then sautee in a little dark beer and serve it with a crust made with seasoned bread crumbs, and lots of parsley - delicious.
The goal is to tenderize and change the flavor to a culinary experience:)

One other highly recommended recipe for liver that works well even for fully grown cows and not just calves is smoked liver pate. I got some liver (5-6lbs) and wasn't sure what to do with that amount so put it onto the smoker for 4 hours. Once finished smoking it was good but not phenomenal, tried taking a portion of a lobe and running it through the food processor with roasted garlic, salt, a touch of balsamic and a pinch of pepper. It's best eaten on crackers with a soft cheese and is absolutely delicious.

Saskatchewstachian

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #58 on: May 09, 2017, 08:03:21 AM »
This thread is intended to be a culinary adventure of food and destroying some of our preconceived notions about it.  What experiences have you had?  What truth bombs do you want to share with other mustachians that might open a new world of nuanced cooking potential?


One other note that has come up multiple times for me and I have even had people refuse to eat is the notion of eating pork which is pink in the middle cooked to medium.

People seem to have a fear of undercooked pork, since I cook using Sous Vide quite often I can accurately control the temperature of the meat being cooked. Instead of cooking a pork tenderloin to 165F and having it come out dry and tough, a much better temperature is 145F (or lower based on preference) then holding it at this temperature for a period of time to ensure it is safe to eat.

I have a few family members who are very "steak and potatoes" when it comes to cooking. When I hosted I figured pork and a side dish would be perfect and not too adventurous as I don't want to push anyone way out of their food comfort zone. However since normal cooking methods can't control heat well enough to hold pork at 145F for extended periods of time they had never eaten pork cooked to medium. Everyone that had it loved it except for the one member that wouldn't even try it.

FIstateofmind

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #59 on: May 09, 2017, 08:22:49 AM »
This reminds me of a documentary I watched abut American wild horses. Apparently, there are way too many of them roaming in national park land, to the point that the overpopulation of them ruins natural habitats. Not only are they ruining the land for other animals, the overpopulation is actually causing the horses to starve to death because the sheer quantity of the animals cannot be sustained by the land. My first thought was why not kill them for meat? When I shared this thought, other reacted with disgust. It doesn't make sense to me to raise animals to be killed, but not kill naturally occurring overpopulations of animals for food.

But that's just my 2 cents. ;P

Inaya

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #60 on: May 09, 2017, 08:23:55 AM »
This thread is intended to be a culinary adventure of food and destroying some of our preconceived notions about it.  What experiences have you had?  What truth bombs do you want to share with other mustachians that might open a new world of nuanced cooking potential?


One other note that has come up multiple times for me and I have even had people refuse to eat is the notion of eating pork which is pink in the middle cooked to medium.

People seem to have a fear of undercooked pork, since I cook using Sous Vide quite often I can accurately control the temperature of the meat being cooked. Instead of cooking a pork tenderloin to 165F and having it come out dry and tough, a much better temperature is 145F (or lower based on preference) then holding it at this temperature for a period of time to ensure it is safe to eat.

I have a few family members who are very "steak and potatoes" when it comes to cooking. When I hosted I figured pork and a side dish would be perfect and not too adventurous as I don't want to push anyone way out of their food comfort zone. However since normal cooking methods can't control heat well enough to hold pork at 145F for extended periods of time they had never eaten pork cooked to medium. Everyone that had it loved it except for the one member that wouldn't even try it.
I got a nice pork tenderloin on sale last week and roasted it to a slight pink. And intellectually, I knew it was perfectly safe to eat. But due to hearing for most of my life* that pink pork is unsafe, I couldn't help being a little nervous eating it--delicious though!

*USDA okayed pink pork in 2011, so a somewhat recent development.

Proud Foot

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #61 on: May 09, 2017, 08:34:02 AM »
This thread is intended to be a culinary adventure of food and destroying some of our preconceived notions about it.  What experiences have you had?  What truth bombs do you want to share with other mustachians that might open a new world of nuanced cooking potential?

Excellent thread WildJager and everyone else who has contributed! I'm like you that I wonder about these meat substitutes that vegans eat.  My wife and I have done vegan occasionally to change up the diet a little bit and it has always seemed strange how the hightly processed tofu and TVP are considered to be healthier than regular meat.

As far as culinary adventures, one of my favorite cuts of meat was Rocky Mountain Oysters .  Growing up we would go to my grandparents and would spend the day out working the cattle and come in for dinner and my grandma would have some fresh ones fried up.  It is always funny to me how some people will eat them and say they are really good until you tell them what they actually are and then they are the most disgusting thing they have ever had!

GreenSheep

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #62 on: May 09, 2017, 08:58:47 AM »
I'm like you that I wonder about these meat substitutes that vegans eat.  My wife and I have done vegan occasionally to change up the diet a little bit and it has always seemed strange how the hightly processed tofu and TVP are considered to be healthier than regular meat.

I think this is part of the reason vegan food gets a bad name. I'm vegan, and I don't eat any of that "fake meat" stuff. I find it disgusting, in part because it's so processed (unhealthy) and in part because I have no desire to eat something that is intentionally made to taste like dead animal. I realize that some people do enjoy meat or meat alternatives, and these "fake meats" are a great transitional food for those who want to transition to a vegan diet while they learn what else they can eat. There's lots of food that is vegan without even trying. I joke with people at work who insist on pointing out my vegan-ness (I do not bring it up, but others often notice) that they're eating a "vegan apple" or a bowl of "vegan oatmeal" or whatever. You can easily be vegan and eat a huge variety of delicious food without ever going near the processed junk.

Fishindude

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #63 on: May 09, 2017, 08:59:54 AM »
Paying extra for meats labeled "grass fed" and "free range" is a ridiculous waste of money in my opinion.

A good friend works for a large chicken producer.  When the free range thing got going, they started missing out on market share so they needed to be able to label their chicken as free range.  That required that they create outdoor cages on the side of their large confinement barns so that the chickens could go outdoors if they so chose.  He tells me they rarely see chickens in the outdoor pens, they prefer to stay in the confinement buildings.  So basically you are eating the same chicken you always were, just paying more for the free range label.

Bucksandreds

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #64 on: May 09, 2017, 09:05:05 AM »
Paying extra for meats labeled "grass fed" and "free range" is a ridiculous waste of money in my opinion.

A good friend works for a large chicken producer.  When the free range thing got going, they started missing out on market share so they needed to be able to label their chicken as free range.  That required that they create outdoor cages on the side of their large confinement barns so that the chickens could go outdoors if they so chose.  He tells me they rarely see chickens in the outdoor pens, they prefer to stay in the confinement buildings.  So basically you are eating the same chicken you always were, just paying more for the free range label.

100% grass fed or grass finished is not a scam. Grass fed can be a scam because all beef is at least partially grass fed. 100% grass fed is significantly healthier for human consumption than conventional grain finished beef.

mm1970

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #65 on: May 09, 2017, 09:06:36 AM »
Paying extra for meats labeled "grass fed" and "free range" is a ridiculous waste of money in my opinion.

A good friend works for a large chicken producer.  When the free range thing got going, they started missing out on market share so they needed to be able to label their chicken as free range.  That required that they create outdoor cages on the side of their large confinement barns so that the chickens could go outdoors if they so chose.  He tells me they rarely see chickens in the outdoor pens, they prefer to stay in the confinement buildings.  So basically you are eating the same chicken you always were, just paying more for the free range label.
I'm going to have to disagree, depending on WHERE you get your chicken/ beef.

If you are buying "free range" chicken or beef from a grocery store, yeah, risky.

If you are buying it from the ranch/ farm down the street, where you actually see the chickens and cows running in the fields/ pens - completely different story.

TravelJunkyQC

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #66 on: May 09, 2017, 09:13:56 AM »
My partner is a hunter and fisherman, and while he was "largely" raised to eat everything he killed, he would occasionally take a life of an invasive species (for example), and then leave it there. I draw the line there, though. Now, if he kills, he eats, no exceptions. I've eaten beaver, lots of deer, moose, wild goose and duck, and a multitude of fish. The beaver and certain types of fish aren't extraordinary, but if it's dead, it will be eaten - it's a matter of respecting and appreciating the life you have taken (at least to me). And I would much rather eat an animal that had a full wild life, and whose life ended swiftly and relatively painlessly, than an animal that lived a miserable life, suffered in death, and ended up in the grocery store (although I also shop in the store).

That being said, there are certain things (arachnids are an example), that I'm not sure I could stomach. I appreciate that others are able to.

Consumer waste is absolutely disgusting to me; whatever someone wants to eat is fine by me, but by god, don't waste what you haven't consumed, just buy less of it.

Kind of a funny story. My father-in-law doesn't hunt and lives in a big house in the suburbs (the faux naturey kind of  neighborhood). So he's been apparently having a big squirrel problem in his attic. He keeps asking me to bring my gun and shoot them. I turn him down each time and explain that I only kill if I'm going to eat it and that these suburban squirrels just aren't wild, so it wouldn't be fair. Hell, the first squirrel I saw after I moved to Chicago had a bagel in it's mouth. Not gonna happen.

Yeah... forgot to mention the random small birds I've eaten because my partner and his grand-father kill the birds that invade the grand-father's bird feeders and don't leave room for the pretty birds... Grand-mother wasn't thrilled about it, but she ate them as well nonetheless. The breasts we're about the size of a dime, but sautéed in some butter they were delicious.

Never had squirrel though... I'd assume it would be pretty tasty.

Goldielocks

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #67 on: May 09, 2017, 11:13:47 AM »
I spent my early career working with food processing and being on and off large farms, so I had to come to terms with my meat -eating behaviours.

Having stood in an abbatoir, on a 10k acre ranch, and even cleaned chicken guts out of a backed up pump at a chicken processing facility, I can definitely say yes to meats.

Interesting where I draw the line for me, though:
1)  Veal.   I would rather eat a wild hunted animal than veal.  No matter how cheap or tasty.
2)  "Free range" chickens and eggs-- meaning uncaged chickens in a barn.  Thousands of chickens pecking at their poop and each other, and walking over dead birds.  I will buy the omega 3 diet chickens or ones allowed "natural behaviours" such as roosting perches or more space in a cage, but the idea of free range (other than as on a small hobby farm) is just wrong.   They don't go outside because of predators out there and inside is like a zombie nightmare.  (and the stench makes me gag just remembering it -- those dead chickens get picked up daily and put somewhere, you know.)
3)   Bugs - mostly, maybe grasshoppers or large bugs ok. Mealworms, no.   Likewise predator game meats, just no.
4)  Beef Liver - DH eats it, but every time I try it, the texture gets to me.   I don't drink most soy milk because of grainy textures, too.

What I don't understand are people that refuse to eat foods that were cooked on the bone?  Or chicken cooked with skin on ?

I hate waste, and cutting off the bone wastes so much (flavor and meat).   DH leaves half of his chicken wings behind, why?    I am also actually in favor of  deboned meats as they call it, using the whole animal has my respect.  Just not in favor of the binders and additives sometimes mixed in.   What is wrong with eating a bit of cartilage in my hotdogs, if I chew it off of my chicken wings?


Saskatchewstachian

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #68 on: May 09, 2017, 11:31:27 AM »
What I don't understand are people that refuse to eat foods that were cooked on the bone?  Or chicken cooked with skin on ?


^^THIS!!!!

I have friends that do it and just can't understand it. Some of it is related to red meat which is fine as everyone has a preference. The weird part comes is chicken thighs that are bought de-boned are fine to eat but buying whole drumsticks and thighs won't fly.

Same as buying a chicken breast is OK yet buying a little roasting chicken and carving the breast out before serving is "gross". It's just something I've never been able to wrap my head around.

Goldielocks

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #69 on: May 09, 2017, 12:11:27 PM »
What I don't understand are people that refuse to eat foods that were cooked on the bone?  Or chicken cooked with skin on ?


^^THIS!!!!

I have friends that do it and just can't understand it. Some of it is related to red meat which is fine as everyone has a preference. The weird part comes is chicken thighs that are bought de-boned are fine to eat but buying whole drumsticks and thighs won't fly.

Same as buying a chicken breast is OK yet buying a little roasting chicken and carving the breast out before serving is "gross". It's just something I've never been able to wrap my head around.

On second thought, maybe this is the EXACT market that mycoprotein was developed for?   

Kitsune

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #70 on: May 09, 2017, 12:41:22 PM »
What I don't understand are people that refuse to eat foods that were cooked on the bone?  Or chicken cooked with skin on ?


^^THIS!!!!

I have friends that do it and just can't understand it. Some of it is related to red meat which is fine as everyone has a preference. The weird part comes is chicken thighs that are bought de-boned are fine to eat but buying whole drumsticks and thighs won't fly.

Same as buying a chicken breast is OK yet buying a little roasting chicken and carving the breast out before serving is "gross". It's just something I've never been able to wrap my head around.

It's like the closer your food comes to admitting it was an animal, the more gross it gets? I have no idea, it makes no sense. Like people who won't eat lamb at our house cause we raised them in the field next door, but will eat supermarket pig... like, what, you'll take the near-certainty of ill-treated meat over the certainty of well-treated animals because seeing them makes you feel guilty so you don't want to face it, and yet you mock vegetarians because... ?? Like, wow, cognitive dissonance that profound must hurt.

If you hate the texture of liver, try pâté. It's surprisingly easy to make and removes the texture issue, and then you can feel satisfied that you're not spending $$ on a type of food that has a reputation for being schmancy but is really just a way to use up off parts. I got my recipe from the River Cottage Meat book, but the author did some tv shows and articles, so it's probably online too.

My personal favorite: roasted bone marrow on toast, with a sprinkling of parsley/shallot/capers/lemon. To. Die. For.




Squidrow Wilson

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #71 on: May 09, 2017, 01:23:25 PM »
What I don't understand are people that refuse to eat foods that were cooked on the bone?  Or chicken cooked with skin on ?


^^THIS!!!!

I have friends that do it and just can't understand it. Some of it is related to red meat which is fine as everyone has a preference. The weird part comes is chicken thighs that are bought de-boned are fine to eat but buying whole drumsticks and thighs won't fly.

Same as buying a chicken breast is OK yet buying a little roasting chicken and carving the breast out before serving is "gross". It's just something I've never been able to wrap my head around.

Honestly, I think it stems from the bone being another reminder that it was an actual animal. I could be wrong but I think the mental association people have between meat and animals has diminished greatly over the last sixty years or so. I hope that it's beginning to turn around but it's hard to say.

Prairie Stash

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #72 on: May 09, 2017, 02:54:38 PM »
I extend the ignorance to other items too. Canada goose parkas are made with coyote, just the fur trim is used (coyotes are generally not good). Perfume is made with castoreum, no one realizes where that originates. Leather seats, suede shoes, footballs and more; all examples of animal used for consumer.

fertilizer production uses amines to extract minerals, for growing all your cereal crops. Those originate at abattoirs which render the fat down. Most people with moral objections rarely stop to see all the products that utilize animals.

As for food, why is liver widely okay but people get squeamish at tongue and heart? I agree on skipping brains, that's primarily from BSE or CWD concerns. Both diseases are prions found in brain tissue; they cause Jakob-creutzfeld disease, otherwise known as mad cow disease.

Goldielocks

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #73 on: May 09, 2017, 05:28:05 PM »
What I don't understand are people that refuse to eat foods that were cooked on the bone?  Or chicken cooked with skin on ?


^^THIS!!!!

I have friends that do it and just can't understand it. Some of it is related to red meat which is fine as everyone has a preference. The weird part comes is chicken thighs that are bought de-boned are fine to eat but buying whole drumsticks and thighs won't fly.

Same as buying a chicken breast is OK yet buying a little roasting chicken and carving the breast out before serving is "gross". It's just something I've never been able to wrap my head around.

It's like the closer your food comes to admitting it was an animal, the more gross it gets? I have no idea, it makes no sense. Like people who won't eat lamb at our house cause we raised them in the field next door, but will eat supermarket pig... like, what, you'll take the near-certainty of ill-treated meat over the certainty of well-treated animals because seeing them makes you feel guilty so you don't want to face it, and yet you mock vegetarians because... ?? Like, wow, cognitive dissonance that profound must hurt.

If you hate the texture of liver, try pâté. It's surprisingly easy to make and removes the texture issue, and then you can feel satisfied that you're not spending $$ on a type of food that has a reputation for being schmancy but is really just a way to use up off parts. I got my recipe from the River Cottage Meat book, but the author did some tv shows and articles, so it's probably online too.

My personal favorite: roasted bone marrow on toast, with a sprinkling of parsley/shallot/capers/lemon. To. Die. For.
Yes I like pâté..   I do find marrow to be grainy too, however, though I don't run away from it.  Definitely a texture thing.

big_slacker

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #74 on: May 09, 2017, 05:43:18 PM »
I'm like you that I wonder about these meat substitutes that vegans eat.  My wife and I have done vegan occasionally to change up the diet a little bit and it has always seemed strange how the hightly processed tofu and TVP are considered to be healthier than regular meat.

I think this is part of the reason vegan food gets a bad name. I'm vegan, and I don't eat any of that "fake meat" stuff. I find it disgusting, in part because it's so processed (unhealthy) and in part because I have no desire to eat something that is intentionally made to taste like dead animal. I realize that some people do enjoy meat or meat alternatives, and these "fake meats" are a great transitional food for those who want to transition to a vegan diet while they learn what else they can eat. There's lots of food that is vegan without even trying. I joke with people at work who insist on pointing out my vegan-ness (I do not bring it up, but others often notice) that they're eating a "vegan apple" or a bowl of "vegan oatmeal" or whatever. You can easily be vegan and eat a huge variety of delicious food without ever going near the processed junk.

Also since veganism is an ethical lifestyle choice there are definitely those on the 'just don't eat animal products' side of things instead of the 'whole foods plant based' healthy type folks. I'm a lot more on the rice 'n beans, salads and oatmeal side of things myself but I will have mock meats from time to time, don't find them disgusting but they're definitely not staples since they're heavily processed foods.

Bucksandreds

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #75 on: May 09, 2017, 06:22:06 PM »
I spent my early career working with food processing and being on and off large farms, so I had to come to terms with my meat -eating behaviours.

Having stood in an abbatoir, on a 10k acre ranch, and even cleaned chicken guts out of a backed up pump at a chicken processing facility, I can definitely say yes to meats.

Interesting where I draw the line for me, though:
1)  Veal.   I would rather eat a wild hunted animal than veal.  No matter how cheap or tasty.
2)  "Free range" chickens and eggs-- meaning uncaged chickens in a barn.  Thousands of chickens pecking at their poop and each other, and walking over dead birds.  I will buy the omega 3 diet chickens or ones allowed "natural behaviours" such as roosting perches or more space in a cage, but the idea of free range (other than as on a small hobby farm) is just wrong.   They don't go outside because of predators out there and inside is like a zombie nightmare.  (and the stench makes me gag just remembering it -- those dead chickens get picked up daily and put somewhere, you know.)
3)   Bugs - mostly, maybe grasshoppers or large bugs ok. Mealworms, no.   Likewise predator game meats, just no.
4)  Beef Liver - DH eats it, but every time I try it, the texture gets to me.   I don't drink most soy milk because of grainy textures, too.

What I don't understand are people that refuse to eat foods that were cooked on the bone?  Or chicken cooked with skin on ?

I hate waste, and cutting off the bone wastes so much (flavor and meat).   DH leaves half of his chicken wings behind, why?    I am also actually in favor of  deboned meats as they call it, using the whole animal has my respect.  Just not in favor of the binders and additives sometimes mixed in.   What is wrong with eating a bit of cartilage in my hotdogs, if I chew it off of my chicken wings?

A lot of the mustachian anti more expensive food talk is self serving because if you can convince yourself that there is no difference between a chicken in a disgustingly small cage and one that roams like a chicken is meant to, you can make it to FIRE quicker.  Mustachian ideals (environmentalism and mindfulness)  don't always line up with real world cost savings.  Stop supporting neglect of animals just because it's cheaper. EOR

Inaya

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #76 on: May 09, 2017, 07:07:12 PM »
I spent my early career working with food processing and being on and off large farms, so I had to come to terms with my meat -eating behaviours.

Having stood in an abbatoir, on a 10k acre ranch, and even cleaned chicken guts out of a backed up pump at a chicken processing facility, I can definitely say yes to meats.

Interesting where I draw the line for me, though:
1)  Veal.   I would rather eat a wild hunted animal than veal.  No matter how cheap or tasty.
2)  "Free range" chickens and eggs-- meaning uncaged chickens in a barn.  Thousands of chickens pecking at their poop and each other, and walking over dead birds.  I will buy the omega 3 diet chickens or ones allowed "natural behaviours" such as roosting perches or more space in a cage, but the idea of free range (other than as on a small hobby farm) is just wrong.   They don't go outside because of predators out there and inside is like a zombie nightmare.  (and the stench makes me gag just remembering it -- those dead chickens get picked up daily and put somewhere, you know.)
3)   Bugs - mostly, maybe grasshoppers or large bugs ok. Mealworms, no.   Likewise predator game meats, just no.
4)  Beef Liver - DH eats it, but every time I try it, the texture gets to me.   I don't drink most soy milk because of grainy textures, too.

What I don't understand are people that refuse to eat foods that were cooked on the bone?  Or chicken cooked with skin on ?

I hate waste, and cutting off the bone wastes so much (flavor and meat).   DH leaves half of his chicken wings behind, why?    I am also actually in favor of  deboned meats as they call it, using the whole animal has my respect.  Just not in favor of the binders and additives sometimes mixed in.   What is wrong with eating a bit of cartilage in my hotdogs, if I chew it off of my chicken wings?

A lot of the mustachian anti more expensive food talk is self serving because if you can convince yourself that there is no difference between a chicken in a disgustingly small cage and one that roams like a chicken is meant to, you can make it to FIRE quicker.  Mustachian ideals (environmentalism and mindfulness)  don't always line up with real world cost savings.  Stop supporting neglect of animals just because it's cheaper. EOR
But Mustachianism is about being mindful and identifying your values and priorities, rather than blindly consuming--be it cars or fancy meats. Hopefully part of that involves some introspection on consumption and use of animal products. There are plenty of people on these forums who have made the choice to pay more for for more humane products because they've prioritized it over FIRE for themselves.

Linda_Norway

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #77 on: May 10, 2017, 06:58:13 AM »
I spent my early career working with food processing and being on and off large farms, so I had to come to terms with my meat -eating behaviours.

Having stood in an abbatoir, on a 10k acre ranch, and even cleaned chicken guts out of a backed up pump at a chicken processing facility, I can definitely say yes to meats.

Interesting where I draw the line for me, though:
1)  Veal.   I would rather eat a wild hunted animal than veal.  No matter how cheap or tasty.
2)  "Free range" chickens and eggs-- meaning uncaged chickens in a barn.  Thousands of chickens pecking at their poop and each other, and walking over dead birds.  I will buy the omega 3 diet chickens or ones allowed "natural behaviours" such as roosting perches or more space in a cage, but the idea of free range (other than as on a small hobby farm) is just wrong.   They don't go outside because of predators out there and inside is like a zombie nightmare.  (and the stench makes me gag just remembering it -- those dead chickens get picked up daily and put somewhere, you know.)
3)   Bugs - mostly, maybe grasshoppers or large bugs ok. Mealworms, no.   Likewise predator game meats, just no.
4)  Beef Liver - DH eats it, but every time I try it, the texture gets to me.   I don't drink most soy milk because of grainy textures, too.

What I don't understand are people that refuse to eat foods that were cooked on the bone?  Or chicken cooked with skin on ?

I hate waste, and cutting off the bone wastes so much (flavor and meat).   DH leaves half of his chicken wings behind, why?    I am also actually in favor of  deboned meats as they call it, using the whole animal has my respect.  Just not in favor of the binders and additives sometimes mixed in.   What is wrong with eating a bit of cartilage in my hotdogs, if I chew it off of my chicken wings?

A lot of the mustachian anti more expensive food talk is self serving because if you can convince yourself that there is no difference between a chicken in a disgustingly small cage and one that roams like a chicken is meant to, you can make it to FIRE quicker.  Mustachian ideals (environmentalism and mindfulness)  don't always line up with real world cost savings.  Stop supporting neglect of animals just because it's cheaper. EOR
But Mustachianism is about being mindful and identifying your values and priorities, rather than blindly consuming--be it cars or fancy meats. Hopefully part of that involves some introspection on consumption and use of animal products. There are plenty of people on these forums who have made the choice to pay more for for more humane products because they've prioritized it over FIRE for themselves.

Indeed. I always buy the most expensive eggs that we free range and biological, in the hope the chickens are getting a better life. I also try to eat much fish that we catch ourselves. And I often buy the most expensive sausages, made of pigs that have a big outside area to walk in.
I also try to eat without meat from time to time to save money. And I save money on all kinds of other food.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #78 on: May 10, 2017, 07:00:39 AM »
Can anyone recommend a comprehensive but total beginner book on cooking organs and other "odd" cuts like oxtail? I'm really on board in theory but am generally anxious about new foods, so I don't want to try these things in public (like at a restaurant) but can't try them at home because I haven't the first idea what to do with them. I'm not very good at cooking meat generally because we don't eat it often and I was vegetarian when I first learned to cook - I can cope with fish fillets, bacon and sausages. Anything else and my husband gets called in to tell me what to do!

Inaya

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #79 on: May 10, 2017, 07:14:10 AM »
Can anyone recommend a comprehensive but total beginner book on cooking organs and other "odd" cuts like oxtail? I'm really on board in theory but am generally anxious about new foods, so I don't want to try these things in public (like at a restaurant) but can't try them at home because I haven't the first idea what to do with them. I'm not very good at cooking meat generally because we don't eat it often and I was vegetarian when I first learned to cook - I can cope with fish fillets, bacon and sausages. Anything else and my husband gets called in to tell me what to do!
Odd Bits by Jennifer McLagan. I'm not sure if it qualifies as "total beginner." I'd say my skill level is pretty average, and most of the recipes seemed doable. But it's an interesting read either way, even if you never cook anything from it.


ETA: If you need more beginner advice handling meats, there are lots of resources out on the Internet, YouTube videos, books, etc. For more general-purpose cooking, Mark Bittman's books are amazing.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 07:18:16 AM by Inaya »

furrychickens

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #80 on: May 10, 2017, 07:34:45 AM »
I'm not much of an organ meat person. We have friends that gladly take all of our edible organs so I've never particularly tried to develop a taste.

I raise a frequently controversial animal for meat: rabbit. They have a good life here that ends in one bad minute. It's delicious and a meat that nearly anyone with a small yard can produce in good quantity.

Raenia

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #81 on: May 10, 2017, 07:52:28 AM »
I raise a frequently controversial animal for meat: rabbit. They have a good life here that ends in one bad minute. It's delicious and a meat that nearly anyone with a small yard can produce in good quantity.

Seconding the small yard/good quantity.  We were in a rowhome with a tiny yard, and still almost replaced storebought meat.  With the added bonus of a stack of inexpertly tanned furs for projects!  Plus I didn't have to mow the lawn much at all, after we built a covered run that could be moved around the yard to give them more space to roam.

I was surprised by how little bad reaction we got from friends and family when we decided to raise rabbits for meat.  I was expecting people to be grossed out.  There was one roommate's vegan sister who was predictably horrified, but everyone else was either pretty neutral or even enthusiastic.  I still hope to get the BF on board to keep rabbits again someday.

Inaya

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #82 on: May 10, 2017, 08:54:29 AM »
Mad props to everyone who is raising their own meat. I couldn't do it. Even if I outsourced the slaughtering and processing, I'd just be too attached to eat anything that I raised. Hell, I get upset when a stuffed animal gets damaged!

But as an aside, would it be considered antiMustachian to have somebody else slaughter your animals? Or is it still a net gain (ethically, economically, and/or ecologically)?

furrychickens

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #83 on: May 10, 2017, 10:35:21 AM »
Mad props to everyone who is raising their own meat. I couldn't do it. Even if I outsourced the slaughtering and processing, I'd just be too attached to eat anything that I raised. Hell, I get upset when a stuffed animal gets damaged!

But as an aside, would it be considered antiMustachian to have somebody else slaughter your animals? Or is it still a net gain (ethically, economically, and/or ecologically)?

I don't think outsourcing slaughter is a bad thing. It's usually a cost/time/equipment calculation. I know homesteaders who do it and many farmers do it even when not legally required for resale.

With rabbits there's not much equipment needed so it's easy to do yourself. The first couple were definitely weird to eat, both because we'd never had rabbit before and becaus they were animals we'd bonded with.

Slaughtering an animal is never easy emotionally. In fact, many people say that if it starts to become too easy you should rethink raising animals. But it's a part of the circle of life.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #84 on: May 10, 2017, 11:19:24 AM »
I raise a frequently controversial animal for meat: rabbit. They have a good life here that ends in one bad minute. It's delicious and a meat that nearly anyone with a small yard can produce in good quantity.

Seconding the small yard/good quantity.  We were in a rowhome with a tiny yard, and still almost replaced storebought meat.  With the added bonus of a stack of inexpertly tanned furs for projects!  Plus I didn't have to mow the lawn much at all, after we built a covered run that could be moved around the yard to give them more space to roam.

I was surprised by how little bad reaction we got from friends and family when we decided to raise rabbits for meat.  I was expecting people to be grossed out.  There was one roommate's vegan sister who was predictably horrified, but everyone else was either pretty neutral or even enthusiastic.  I still hope to get the BF on board to keep rabbits again someday.

I've never killed anything personally, so I'm wondering how the heck you can manage killing and butchering a rabbit in a rowhome (assuming this is what I think of as a standard Victorian terrace). Did stuff not just get everywhere? I would be so worried about contaminating stuff.

sw1tch

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #85 on: May 10, 2017, 11:49:56 AM »
Can anyone recommend a comprehensive but total beginner book on cooking organs and other "odd" cuts like oxtail? I'm really on board in theory but am generally anxious about new foods, so I don't want to try these things in public (like at a restaurant) but can't try them at home because I haven't the first idea what to do with them. I'm not very good at cooking meat generally because we don't eat it often and I was vegetarian when I first learned to cook - I can cope with fish fillets, bacon and sausages. Anything else and my husband gets called in to tell me what to do!

This post got me thinking about Jamaican oxtail....  Ahhh, that's so good; I've made it at home before.  Oxtail definitely is very fatty and rich (if you like that kind of thing which I do).

As for the strangest food I've had, I tried bat curry when I visited Indonesia a number of years ago.  That was pretty tasty but definitely had a lot to do with how it was prepared (slow cooked in curry).

Goldielocks

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #86 on: May 10, 2017, 01:01:10 PM »
I spent my early career working with food processing and being on and off large farms, so I had to come to terms with my meat -eating behaviours.

Having stood in an abbatoir, on a 10k acre ranch, and even cleaned chicken guts out of a backed up pump at a chicken processing facility, I can definitely say yes to meats.

Interesting where I draw the line for me, though:
1)  Veal.   I would rather eat a wild hunted animal than veal.  No matter how cheap or tasty.
2)  "Free range" chickens and eggs-- meaning uncaged chickens in a barn.  Thousands of chickens pecking at their poop and each other, and walking over dead birds.  I will buy the omega 3 diet chickens or ones allowed "natural behaviours" such as roosting perches or more space in a cage, but the idea of free range (other than as on a small hobby farm) is just wrong.   They don't go outside because of predators out there and inside is like a zombie nightmare.  (and the stench makes me gag just remembering it -- those dead chickens get picked up daily and put somewhere, you know.)
3)   Bugs - mostly, maybe grasshoppers or large bugs ok. Mealworms, no.   Likewise predator game meats, just no.
4)  Beef Liver - DH eats it, but every time I try it, the texture gets to me.   I don't drink most soy milk because of grainy textures, too.

What I don't understand are people that refuse to eat foods that were cooked on the bone?  Or chicken cooked with skin on ?

I hate waste, and cutting off the bone wastes so much (flavor and meat).   DH leaves half of his chicken wings behind, why?    I am also actually in favor of  deboned meats as they call it, using the whole animal has my respect.  Just not in favor of the binders and additives sometimes mixed in.   What is wrong with eating a bit of cartilage in my hotdogs, if I chew it off of my chicken wings?

A lot of the mustachian anti more expensive food talk is self serving because if you can convince yourself that there is no difference between a chicken in a disgustingly small cage and one that roams like a chicken is meant to, you can make it to FIRE quicker.  Mustachian ideals (environmentalism and mindfulness)  don't always line up with real world cost savings.  Stop supporting neglect of animals just because it's cheaper. EOR

My point is that the "free range" choice people make is often no better and sometimes much worse than the "larger" cage alternatives.     Likewise expensive veal is a horror that I would like to abolish....  I am ok with segregating a poorly growing young animal for health care reasons for a short time, but the concept of veal that I saw... nope.

furrychickens

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #87 on: May 10, 2017, 05:46:54 PM »
I've never killed anything personally, so I'm wondering how the heck you can manage killing and butchering a rabbit in a rowhome (assuming this is what I think of as a standard Victorian terrace). Did stuff not just get everywhere? I would be so worried about contaminating stuff.

Rabbits are not messy to butcher. A tarp to catch stray blood, a bucket for the guts underneath where you hang the carcass to dress. The mess stays easily within a radius of, say, six feet tops. I do mine in the garage to not be so visible to the neighbors since our yard is pretty visible but many US rowhouses have a pretty private backyard with a tall wall enclosing it.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #88 on: May 11, 2017, 01:53:06 AM »
I've never killed anything personally, so I'm wondering how the heck you can manage killing and butchering a rabbit in a rowhome (assuming this is what I think of as a standard Victorian terrace). Did stuff not just get everywhere? I would be so worried about contaminating stuff.

Rabbits are not messy to butcher. A tarp to catch stray blood, a bucket for the guts underneath where you hang the carcass to dress. The mess stays easily within a radius of, say, six feet tops. I do mine in the garage to not be so visible to the neighbors since our yard is pretty visible but many US rowhouses have a pretty private backyard with a tall wall enclosing it.

Ah, OK, I think your house layout is different from the one I was envisaging. Fair enough if you have a garage or a decent sized back garden.

Venturing

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #89 on: May 13, 2017, 03:33:59 AM »
For a good beginners recipe for cooking liver just google a recipe for 'lambs fry'. It's essentially fried liver and bacon in gravy, very tasty.

cheapass

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #90 on: June 01, 2017, 08:25:43 AM »
Oh yeah, and stop freaking out about protein. You don't need that much. :D
This always makes me want to simultaneously laugh and smack someone. It's like, "Grrrrrr, I'm so tough and rugged I just NEED to eat platefuls of raw meat every day just to stay ALIVE!" Lol, srsly. No one in a developed country above the poverty line who can list three non-meat sources of protein and occasionally thinks about it in passing is going to be protein deficient.

This may apply for the general population but for those of us who engage in strenuous weight training 3-4x per week a bit of extra protein can be the difference between being sore and run down vs. feeling great and recovered for the next workout. You can't build a house without lumber.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 08:37:40 AM by cheapass »

Raenia

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #91 on: June 01, 2017, 09:00:38 AM »
I've never killed anything personally, so I'm wondering how the heck you can manage killing and butchering a rabbit in a rowhome (assuming this is what I think of as a standard Victorian terrace). Did stuff not just get everywhere? I would be so worried about contaminating stuff.

Rabbits are not messy to butcher. A tarp to catch stray blood, a bucket for the guts underneath where you hang the carcass to dress. The mess stays easily within a radius of, say, six feet tops. I do mine in the garage to not be so visible to the neighbors since our yard is pretty visible but many US rowhouses have a pretty private backyard with a tall wall enclosing it.

Ah, OK, I think your house layout is different from the one I was envisaging. Fair enough if you have a garage or a decent sized back garden.

Sorry for not responding earlier, but Thegoblinchief nailed it.  Our yard was only about 12-14 ft wide, but had a tall privacy fence to hide from the neighbors.  I did mine on the cement patio, with a small tarp and a bucket to catch the drips and discards.  The hutch plus the pen we used for grazing took up more space than my slaughtering setup.

cheapass

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #92 on: June 01, 2017, 09:29:51 AM »
Ooh I like this thread a LOT.

My boyfriend goes hunting when he's camping and I'm ashamed to say my initial reaction, when first we met, was to be slightly horrified. That he would kill a bunny. And then eat it. But I EAT MEAT! What a hypocrite!

At least you're honest enough with yourself to evaluate your biases and improve your mindset. Many people never recognize that outsourcing the killing is still killing. Buying a cellophane wrapped steak is much "easier" than shooting an animal and butchering it yourself but which one is the more ethical choice? They both died, but which animal lived a better life? And which system do we want to support with our dollars?
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 09:31:39 AM by cheapass »

dreams_and_discoveries

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #93 on: June 01, 2017, 10:02:25 AM »
I'm hoping I get a pass as I'm a strict veggie.....can't stand the idea of killing animals, yuck!

Veg and grains and dairy I'm good with, I know how they are grown/raised

cobbb11

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #94 on: June 02, 2017, 09:29:45 AM »
If you can get through this whole lecture and not be vegan after, than kudos, but this changed me on the spot. There is no such thing as "humane" in the animal products world when the end result is always an early death to an otherwise perfectly functioning and sentient animal. That's why we don't have things like humane rape and humane murder.

Also I personally don't think anyone can complain about climate change and the environment without first adopting a vegan diet. It's something simple everyone can do at any time and you don't need a President to tell you to do it.

In regards to the mock meats discussion, no one ever claims they're healthy. Trust me you can be unhealthy as a vegan, but at least you're only hurting yourself and not causing harm to other beings. They are meant to be occasional treats like pizza and ice cream (both have great vegan varieties, even Ben and Jerry's has vegan ice cream), and also help people who are transitioning to plant-based and still have meat cravings. But I promise you within 2/3 weeks, your tastes will change.
 
There's also a 30 minute Q&A video that takes place after this lecture.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LMmC4&t=1502s

Bart1ma3u5

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #95 on: June 02, 2017, 11:46:49 AM »
I thoroughly enjoy this thread. I hunt and fish and enjoy eating wild game. I have never been very good at maintaining a garden, but it is still something I enjoy doing. I much prefer growing or hunting for my food and knowing where it all came from, and knowing that any meat I eat lived a better life than on a factory farm, though the majority of it still comes from grocery stores unfortunately.

Raising rabbits is something that intrigues me that I might look into in the future, in addition to chickens for eggs.

Sailor Sam

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #96 on: June 02, 2017, 12:17:34 PM »
If you can get through this whole lecture and not be vegan after, than kudos, but this changed me on the spot. There is no such thing as "humane" in the animal products world when the end result is always an early death to an otherwise perfectly functioning and sentient animal. That's why we don't have things like humane rape and humane murder.

Also I personally don't think anyone can complain about climate change and the environment without first adopting a vegan diet. It's something simple everyone can do at any time and you don't need a President to tell you to do it.

In regards to the mock meats discussion, no one ever claims they're healthy. Trust me you can be unhealthy as a vegan, but at least you're only hurting yourself and not causing harm to other beings. They are meant to be occasional treats like pizza and ice cream (both have great vegan varieties, even Ben and Jerry's has vegan ice cream), and also help people who are transitioning to plant-based and still have meat cravings. But I promise you within 2/3 weeks, your tastes will change.
 
There's also a 30 minute Q&A video that takes place after this lecture.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LMmC4&t=1502s

Hey cobbb11, maybe you can answer some questions for me. I've often wondered what the idea solution to the existence of animals, under a fully vegan moral code. If no animals are food, then they must be either pets or wild.

Animal in the wild don't die of old age. They die of predation, exposure, or illness. Wouldn't setting all the feed animals free also be humans causing the premature ending of an otherwise viable animal?

Perhaps that example doesn't help, because we can all admit the magical release of all feed animals currently awaiting slaughter ain't never going to happen. But even a carefully scheduled released plan seems problematic. At this point the breed of cows, chickens, and hogs eaten in N. American have been heavily modified by humans, and those modifications do not emphasis survival in the wild. If anything, the things humans want reduces survivalist in the wild. Chicken's with breasts so massive they cannot walk will have brutish lives in the wild. When taking into account those human adaptations, is it moral to simply release the current version of Holstein or Angus into the wild.

If wild release isn't moral, and they must remain pets, that also has moral implications on the continued existence of large animals. We're no longer a society predicated on the ability to keep a cow and a sheep in the back garden. Urban density is just going to increase.

From your post count, you seem new here and you might not know me very well. Let me assure you this is a sincere conversation, based on curiosity. I'm not collecting ammunition to rebut. I don't agree with you, but I accept your right to think keeping animals for meat is immoral, but correcting the moral issue creates a whole slew of future moral questions. I'm interested in your thoughts.

furrychickens

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #97 on: June 02, 2017, 12:25:28 PM »
Also I personally don't think anyone can complain about climate change and the environment without first adopting a vegan diet.

I challenge you to do some research on this issue. I don't claim to have read everything on the topic, but my understanding is that few biological systems sequester more carbon than grasslands pulsed by rotationally grazing herbivores. Contrary to the common vegan/environmental crowd's belief that cows are killing the planet, grass-fed cattle (and other ruminants) on properly managed pastures do wondrous things to heal the planet. The amount of carbon sequestered by actively managed pasture or sylvopasture can approach 100x the amount of wild forest systems, in that topsoil builds at close to an inch a year versus an inch a century.

If you look at regenerating landscapes with design systems like permaculture, it nearly always involves animals.

The killing and eating of sentient beings is a whole other issue, not going to try debating that as the viewpoints are just too far apart to make discussion practical, but veganism - especially one based primarily off of annual food crops is NOT more environmentally friendly than a mixed diet of animal and plants with the animal portion coming exclusively from perennial systems. As someone involved with meat animals from birth to death, it's not an easy choice to make, but I take it because it's what is personally best for my body (after experimenting with plant-based diets for some time) and I make sure that the death is as quick and painless as possible.

Dabnasty

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #98 on: June 02, 2017, 12:33:46 PM »
Yeah... forgot to mention the random small birds I've eaten because my partner and his grand-father kill the birds that invade the grand-father's bird feeders and don't leave room for the pretty birds... Grand-mother wasn't thrilled about it, but she ate them as well nonetheless. The breasts we're about the size of a dime, but sautéed in some butter they were delicious.

Never had squirrel though... I'd assume it would be pretty tasty.
It is, but so little meat. I had it battered and fried so that may have influenced my opinion.


Case

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Re: Ignorant food consumers
« Reply #99 on: June 02, 2017, 12:42:24 PM »
Say what you will, but basically your original post comes across as a bit arrogant and judgmental of 'food simpletons'.  As a result, you are going to get some backlash.  Therefore, in future writings, you can spend a little more time word-smithing so that your thread doesn't get derailed from what you were actually hoping to discuss.

Now, I'm going to challenge you on something: it is ok to not know where your food came from, or what's in it.  Saying that detachment from food sources is disrespectful is false, and possibly an inappropriate personification.  Finally, the connection between detachment of food origin and sustainability is indirect at best.

Don't be such a judge on what others do or think.   
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What was that quote I feel like I heard recently from some guy?  Something along the lines of, "How to be Happy, Rich, and Save the World."  Who was he again?  Ah well, forget about it.

Anywho, I'm not judging people for what others want to do and think.  I'm commenting on the lack of thinking behind their "decision" making.  Just as this whole site is dedicated to righting the sinking ship of financially literacy among our society, food consumption and production is a second ship sinking just along side.  Our current detachment from food sources is not only disrespectful, but practically unsustainable.  Just as actions in personal finance have consequences, so do actions at the grocery store.  If someone wants to make an informed decision about food that doesn't contribute to fixing the problem, by all means do what you want.  However, lambasting cultural differences or non-normative food culture out of ignorance is not a trait I respect.

Why don't we start a thread on some of the stupid shit you're in to?  MOD NOTE: Rule #1

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I love White Castle, McDonald's Fillet-O-Fish, and the all-you-can-eat prime rib buffets at casinos.  I blame nostalgia.  What else would you like to know?