If 1M is good, is 10M better?

[Ron Scott]

That's certainly been my experienced. We recently passed the point where WR on current spending would be <2%. This has led to us saying yes to luxuries that add value but which we would have been reluctant to splurge on when we were above that number.

You know, in the old days, before Trinity, retired people would say “don’t touch your principal”. Of course interest + dividends in those days were in excess of 4% LOL.

But yeah, we’ve been under 2% WR since day 1 of retirement and whatever. I never lived up to my means when I was working and I didn’t have much of an interest in doing it in retirement. If you have some money spend what you want to spend, not what you CAN spend.

[twinstudy]

The idea of spending principal seems remarkably icky to me. Something about it doesn't sit right to me - but then, finances are all a game to me, and I get fun from min-maxing and playing games the way I want to play them. Others will have their own rules. The great thing about life is we all get to set our own rules.

[vand]

With the preference for buybacks over dividends, the delineation between principal and income has become somewhat blurred anyway.

[mistymoney]

not spending principal implies that you have eaily delineated principal and interest, which seems to indicate a lot more bonds and less stock, since you would never sell shares. So a much more conservative mix than most here.

also boogleheady in that affording a retirement on never touch principal woul require a) many additional years of work which b) may be completely unnecessary after all.

the other caveate is if you are focused on maintaining your stash or still trying to "get rich" after retirement. I think a majority in stocks implies the later.

[aloevera1]

the other caveate is if you are focused on maintaining your stash or still trying to "get rich" after retirement. I think a majority in stocks implies the later.

Some of "getting rich" is necessary though as we are constantly trying to beat inflation. Maintaining and not spending the capital is not really enough...

[mistymoney]

the other caveate is if you are focused on maintaining your stash or still trying to "get rich" after retirement. I think a majority in stocks implies the later.

Some of "getting rich" is necessary though as we are constantly trying to beat inflation. Maintaining and not spending the capital is not really enough...

yes but I think 30-40% in stocks would do that. Many here are 80-100%, with maybe a short term bond tent for sorr.

[Gerard]

not spending principal implies that you have easily delineated principal and interest

I suspect a lot of people on this thread are using "principal" as shorthand for "the amount of money I came into retirement with (and that will generate the minimum income I need)".

[Ron Scott]

The idea of spending principal seems remarkably icky to me. Something about it doesn't sit right to me - but then, finances are all a game to me, and I get fun from min-maxing and playing games the way I want to play them. Others will have their own rules. The great thing about life is we all get to set our own rules.

With the preference for buybacks over dividends, the delineation between principal and income has become somewhat blurred anyway.

What is “principal?

In finance, generally speaking it's the original amount of money that is borrowed, lent, or—for our purposes—invested; before any interest, gains, or losses are considered.

But retired folk I know have their own interpretation of principal:
Is it the shares of stock funds and units of bond funds you started with when you retired?
Is it the dollar amount of your invested portfolio at the time of retirement?
Is it the INFLATED dollar amount of your investment portfolio…?
Is it the dollar amount you had at the beginning of the year?

Changes that occur in your “Principal” is a story you tell yourself.

You can have identical financial outcomes from spending dividends OR spending the proceeds of shares of stock you sell that appreciated due to buybacks. But in the first case you didn’t “touch principal” whereas in the second—maybe you did since you sold shares?

I think it’s helpful to think about principal as an amount of money, not shares/units of stocks/bonds.

It is also helpful to think of dividends as a sum of money you are forced to treat as  taxable gains in the year distributed, and of buybacks as an increase in the value of your stock, that you can sell to realize gains whenever you choose to, or to keep unsold.

Ultimately, I would ALWAYS want buybacks and NEVER dividends. I don’t need companies telling me when to take gains…I’m fine accepting the responsibility.

[Acastus]

More money will always be financially safer. How safe do we need to be? 90%? 99.5%? 99.995%?

The trade off is, you can do something more personally rewarding instead of grinding away amassing more wealth. Is that worth the risk? One more year is safe, but if you keep doing it, you will never move on to the next thing.

Suze Orman says she hates FIRE, but it is exactly what she did. She left a high paying finance job and started a new, high risk pursuit that happened to make her even richer.

[mistymoney]

Suze Orman says she hates FIRE, but it is exactly what she did. She left a high paying finance job and started a new, high risk pursuit that happened to make her even richer.

lol, I thought surely this was hyberole. Nope!

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/going-burn-alive-suze-orman-204023984.html
Benzinga
'You Are Going To Burn Up Alive' — Suze Orman Hates The FIRE Movement And Says You Need At Least $20 Million To Retire Early: 'Two Million Is Nothing. It's Pennies In Today's World'

Direct and unreserved, Orman said, “I hate it. Really, I hate it,” pointing to the FIRE movement.

[Tigerpine]

According to the article, she said this in 2018.  Using an inflation calculator, $20M then works out to $25M today.

But this is clearly hyperbole.  If a person at the start of their career knows they will work for 30 years making $75k a year in inflation adjusted dollars, that's $2.25M in present value, assuming a 0% discount rate (to be really conservative).  That's about a tenth of what Suze recommends.

[wageslave23]

According to the article, she said this in 2018.  Using an inflation calculator, $20M then works out to $25M today.

But this is clearly hyperbole.  If a person at the start of their career knows they will work for 30 years making $75k a year in inflation adjusted dollars, that's $2.25M in present value, assuming a 0% discount rate (to be really conservative).  That's about a tenth of what Suze recommends.

It's just a low IQ person catering to lower IQ people. Don't give her too much credit.

[Ron Scott]

If you want to sober up, try maintaining a spreadsheet that tracks inflation-adjusted changes in your net worth over time. Inflation is my largest expense.

I started this when I retired in 2017. My nominal increase in NW is about 50%; inflation adjusted is ~18%.

We can argue with people who claim they can “beat inflation” but I mean really. Nobody’s living like it’s 1999…

[Tigerpine]

We keep track of this, too.  Since 2017, nominally our end of year (EOY) net worth for 2023 is 361% of 2017 EOY net worth.  Adjusted for inflation, it's 290%.

Your point about inflation is well taken, but aren't you technically beating inflation if your real rate of return is greater than 0%?

[dividendman]

If you want to sober up, try maintaining a spreadsheet that tracks inflation-adjusted changes in your net worth over time. Inflation is my largest expense.

I started this when I retired in 2017. My nominal increase in NW is about 50%; inflation adjusted is ~18%.

We can argue with people who claim they can “beat inflation” but I mean really. Nobody’s living like it’s 1999…

Folks should also keep track of their spending (aka your personal inflation rate). I've kept a very detailed budget since 2020 (FIRED in Feb 2022). My personal spending has actually gone down over those years, with this year being the only year it looks like it's going to be going up, and not by much. Many people have built-in inflation hedges like large mortgages at < 3%.

[twinstudy]

If you want to sober up, try maintaining a spreadsheet that tracks inflation-adjusted changes in your net worth over time. Inflation is my largest expense.

I started this when I retired in 2017. My nominal increase in NW is about 50%; inflation adjusted is ~18%.

We can argue with people who claim they can “beat inflation” but I mean really. Nobody’s living like it’s 1999…

Folks should also keep track of their spending (aka your personal inflation rate). I've kept a very detailed budget since 2020 (FIRED in Feb 2022). My personal spending has actually gone down over those years, with this year being the only year it looks like it's going to be going up, and not by much. Many people have built-in inflation hedges like large mortgages at < 3%.

Doesn't matter how careful you are with spending when structural changes come into play. My land tax has gone up 50% in the last 2 years, council rates have gone up around 25%, and house insurance has gone up around 20%. My office rent has gone up 10%. Nothing I can do about that.

[dividendman]

If you want to sober up, try maintaining a spreadsheet that tracks inflation-adjusted changes in your net worth over time. Inflation is my largest expense.

I started this when I retired in 2017. My nominal increase in NW is about 50%; inflation adjusted is ~18%.

We can argue with people who claim they can “beat inflation” but I mean really. Nobody’s living like it’s 1999…

Folks should also keep track of their spending (aka your personal inflation rate). I've kept a very detailed budget since 2020 (FIRED in Feb 2022). My personal spending has actually gone down over those years, with this year being the only year it looks like it's going to be going up, and not by much. Many people have built-in inflation hedges like large mortgages at < 3%.

Doesn't matter how careful you are with spending when structural changes come into play. My land tax has gone up 50% in the last 2 years, council rates have gone up around 25%, and house insurance has gone up around 20%. My office rent has gone up 10%. Nothing I can do about that.

Yep, I'm just saying inflation is a very general population-wide average gauge, so people are going to fall all over the spectrum on whether it's actually hurting them as much, more or less than the average.

[Telecaster]

The important thing is the ratio of spending increase to net worth increase.   That's the thing that tells you if you are losing or gaining. 

[GilesMM]

For a guy like me I kind of think the 1mil milestone would feel better than the 10mil. I think hitting the 1mil mark would be a huge accomplishment - hope to get there one day.

10 million is the new 1 million.

Value of $1,000,000 from 1966 to 2024
$1,000,000 in 1966 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $9,708,024.69 today, an increase of $8,708,024.69 over 58 years. The dollar had an average inflation rate of 4.00% per year between 1966 and today, producing a cumulative price increase of 870.80%.

https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/1966?amount=1000000

leastwise from when I was born and thinking about playing monopoly!

You only have to go back to the 60s for an inflation-adjusted $10 million today to be $1 million then. That’s why everyone is a millionaire these days - it’s really just $100,000.

[mistymoney]

For a guy like me I kind of think the 1mil milestone would feel better than the 10mil. I think hitting the 1mil mark would be a huge accomplishment - hope to get there one day.

10 million is the new 1 million.

Value of $1,000,000 from 1966 to 2024
$1,000,000 in 1966 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $9,708,024.69 today, an increase of $8,708,024.69 over 58 years. The dollar had an average inflation rate of 4.00% per year between 1966 and today, producing a cumulative price increase of 870.80%.

https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/1966?amount=1000000

leastwise from when I was born and thinking about playing monopoly!

You only have to go back to the 60s for an inflation-adjusted $10 million today to be $1 million then. That’s why everyone is a millionaire these days - it’s really just $100,000.

isn't that what I said?

[Ron Scott]

Your point about inflation is well taken, but aren't you technically beating inflation if your real rate of return is greater than 0%?

I think you beat inflation if you a purchase the same or replacement goods and services for the same nominal dollars after the inflation rate has changed.

You don’t necessarily beat inflation if you simply spend the same in nominal dollars in the following year, nor if your investments covered the difference. (In fact there would be no 4% Rule if all your investments did was keep pace with inflation, as your SWR would be equal to your invested assets / years of remaining life.)

Many people can beat inflation over a short period of time. But like I said: It’s hard to live like it’s 1999.

[Tigerpine]

Your point about inflation is well taken, but aren't you technically beating inflation if your real rate of return is greater than 0%?

I think you beat inflation if you a purchase the same or replacement goods and services for the same nominal dollars after the inflation rate has changed.

You don’t necessarily beat inflation if you simply spend the same in nominal dollars in the following year, nor if your investments covered the difference. (In fact there would be no 4% Rule if all your investments did was keep pace with inflation, as your SWR would be equal to your invested assets / years of remaining life.)

Many people can beat inflation over a short period of time. But like I said: It’s hard to live like it’s 1999.

I don't understand how you're not beating inflation if your purchasing power has increased (due to investments outpacing inflation).  Inflation from a practical standpoint is all about purchasing power, or spending capacity.  If that capacity has improved and you can purchase an even greater amount goods and services than your starting point, then what would you call it if not beating inflation?

[NorthernIkigai]

Most of us are living a lot more luxuriously than we did in 1999.

And if I think about 1 M€ today, I don't really care about what 1 M of any currency was in 1999 or in 1966. Or back in the days when we were trading with squirrel skins. 1 M is only relevant to me in terms of what I can do with it (and the proceeds from it) now and in the future, not about whether I can call myself or our household "millionaires".

[GuitarStv]

Most of us are living a lot more luxuriously than we did in 1999.

It's interesting to think back to '99 and compare.

We have a better TV now, a better computer, and internet access - so these things are better.  We have air conditioning now (although we live in a much warmer part of the country).

I drive an '05 Corolla, don't have a cell phone, and am occupying a house of about the same square footage.

Food quality and quantity seems to be worse.  Public health care seems to be worse.  Gas is much more expensive.



I dunno - doesn't seem radically more luxurious.

[NorthernIkigai]

Most of us are living a lot more luxuriously than we did in 1999.

It's interesting to think back to '99 and compare.

We have a better TV now, a better computer, and internet access - so these things are better.  We have air conditioning now (although we live in a much warmer part of the country).

I drive an '05 Corolla, don't have a cell phone, and am occupying a house of about the same square footage.

Food quality and quantity seems to be worse.  Public health care seems to be worse.  Gas is much more expensive.



I dunno - doesn't seem radically more luxurious.

The things I can do with the technology we have at home and in the office are beyond anything I could have imagined back in 1999 when I was reading emails on text terminals and paying for every single text message of 160 characters. (Although I, personally, can't even operate our "tv" ( = home entertainment system), but that's beyond the point, the kids help me if there's something I really want to watch.)

Our current housing is about the same size as where I grew up, but with much better materials, more automation, much more efficient heating, and smarter solutions for just about everything.

Most people have much better opportunities for travel than they had in 1999.

That gas is more expensive is surely a good thing, since it's closer to the realistic prize of it, when looking at the big picture. There's crap food out there, but there's definitely a lot more choice and among that choice a lot more quality as well. I'm not sure what you mean by worse food quantity -- there's definitely a lot more food for most of us in the Western world than we'd need. Health care and technology has made enormous strides -- things that people just used to die from are often treatable right now. I'd guess almost every individual person actually has access to better healthcare now than they did in 1999, it's just that the expectations of what it can do have changed a lot, and the difference between good coverage and bad coverage have grown a lot.

Humanity has pretty much never had it better. (It's just that the rest of the planet is dying.)

[twinstudy]

I think the average person has no idea how easy life is today compared to any point in the past. Particularly given that we are in a low point for overall war/conflict, we have more medical advances than ever, and only in the last 20 years have we gained the ability to access the sum of all human knowledge immediately and for free, the ability to voice chat and video call and use mobile data and internet for almost free.

It's an amazing array of power at our fingertips.

[Ron Scott]

I think the average person has no idea how easy life is today compared to any point in the past. Particularly given that we are in a low point for overall war/conflict, we have more medical advances than ever, and only in the last 20 years have we gained the ability to access the sum of all human knowledge immediately and for free, the ability to voice chat and video call and use mobile data and internet for almost free.

It's an amazing array of power at our fingertips.

People focus on the negative aspects of life because our news media understands that fear and hatred drive viewership. They’re in a shit business and doubling down on it.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

I'd argue the opposite.  The media makes it seem like the average American is struggling to make ends meet, but I don't come across 'average' people struggling.  Sure, there are anecdotes and still homeless people, but not worse than it was pre Pandemic.

If anything, people are struggling because there is too much comfort.  I generally feel better about my life when I have some friction and resistance to overcome.  With too much comfort, I find my brain looking for things to be anxious about and my body feeling unhealthy and weak.

[dividendman]

I'd argue the opposite.  The media makes it seem like the average American is struggling to make ends meet, but I don't come across 'average' people struggling.  Sure, there are anecdotes and still homeless people, but not worse than it was pre Pandemic.

If anything, people are struggling because there is too much comfort.  I generally feel better about my life when I have some friction and resistance to overcome.  With too much comfort, I find my brain looking for things to be anxious about and my body feeling unhealthy and weak.

It's interesting you feel this way. I was watching a couple of doctors talk about this same thing. Apparently human beings basically look for problems. When there are no "real" problems (like imminent death, hunger, constant danger, etc.) and we haven't experienced any real problems for comparison, we elevate whatever smaller problems we have to anxiety producing levels... it's like a need. One of the doctors was hypothesizing that this is why the youth is so anxious/have so many mental problems, not because life is so hard, but because life is so easy.

[Ron Scott]

Not to mention that gas should be such a small fraction of your overall spending that any non-crazy increases shouldn't matter to your budgeting

Lol that and car insurance, registration/tags, smogging, repairs and maintence, car replacement, etc. Of course I make up for it in food consumption to pedal my stupid bike everywhere ;-).

You know it’s funny. I live in suburban LI most of the year and I’m a bike rider, couple hundred miles a month.

But I would find it imporssible to bike for my general needs. Maybe a little groceries, OK. But we’re into Costco, Trader Joe’s, and others that are typically located in places that put me on roads I don’t consider bike-safe—or just too much stuff to load on a bike.

Then, mom’s half an hour away and friends are mostly further than a bike ride, and that’s not to mention parks, museums, beaches, and so on. The city is 40 minutes by train, and most of whatever else I do is a short car ride. Combined, my wife and I drive about 9k miles a year, so a price swing of a buck will only cost us $400-$500 a year, which is unremarkable.

When I was a kid my bike was definitely transportation. Now, not really.

[Metalcat]

I'd argue the opposite.  The media makes it seem like the average American is struggling to make ends meet, but I don't come across 'average' people struggling.  Sure, there are anecdotes and still homeless people, but not worse than it was pre Pandemic.

If anything, people are struggling because there is too much comfort.  I generally feel better about my life when I have some friction and resistance to overcome.  With too much comfort, I find my brain looking for things to be anxious about and my body feeling unhealthy and weak.

It's interesting you feel this way. I was watching a couple of doctors talk about this same thing. Apparently human beings basically look for problems. When there are no "real" problems (like imminent death, hunger, constant danger, etc.) and we haven't experienced any real problems for comparison, we elevate whatever smaller problems we have to anxiety producing levels... it's like a need. One of the doctors was hypothesizing that this is why the youth is so anxious/have so many mental problems, not because life is so hard, but because life is so easy.

This really isn't my experience as a healthcare professional and current therapist.

I do agree that living a distinctly easy life can cause a lot of emotional dysregulation, but I haven't found that the average person lacks substantial hardship.

I've treated thousands of people, in my last job before I became a therapist I was treating a general cross section of the upper middle class population in my area, ages under 1 to over 100, and I would say that the average person was grappling with some pretty gnarly shit.

The reason so many people are so miserable now is not because their lives are so easy, but because there's a brutal lack of deep, meaningful connection.

Humans are pretty obligatory social animals, and while we are more connected than ever, we are severely lacking the kind of connection and community we need to thrive.

I also take what MDs say about mental health worth a grain of salt. My med school classes were pretty shitty with respect to mental health. I'm pretty sure we were taught that only CBT works.

[dividendman]

I'd argue the opposite.  The media makes it seem like the average American is struggling to make ends meet, but I don't come across 'average' people struggling.  Sure, there are anecdotes and still homeless people, but not worse than it was pre Pandemic.

If anything, people are struggling because there is too much comfort.  I generally feel better about my life when I have some friction and resistance to overcome.  With too much comfort, I find my brain looking for things to be anxious about and my body feeling unhealthy and weak.

It's interesting you feel this way. I was watching a couple of doctors talk about this same thing. Apparently human beings basically look for problems. When there are no "real" problems (like imminent death, hunger, constant danger, etc.) and we haven't experienced any real problems for comparison, we elevate whatever smaller problems we have to anxiety producing levels... it's like a need. One of the doctors was hypothesizing that this is why the youth is so anxious/have so many mental problems, not because life is so hard, but because life is so easy.

This really isn't my experience as a healthcare professional and current therapist.

I do agree that living a distinctly easy life can cause a lot of emotional dysregulation, but I haven't found that the average person lacks substantial hardship.

I've treated thousands of people, in my last job before I became a therapist I was treating a general cross section of the upper middle class population in my area, ages under 1 to over 100, and I would say that the average person was grappling with some pretty gnarly shit.

The reason so many people are so miserable now is not because their lives are so easy, but because there's a brutal lack of deep, meaningful connection.

Humans are pretty obligatory social animals, and while we are more connected than ever, we are severely lacking the kind of connection and community we need to thrive.

I also take what MDs say about mental health worth a grain of salt. My med school classes were pretty shitty with respect to mental health. I'm pretty sure we were taught that only CBT works.

My experience is, of course, anecdotal. But I had a rough and poor childhood. Same with my SO and a batch of friends I grew up with. The ones I'm still in contact with and my SO all lead much better lives now and I feel like we're all pretty happy about it, but even happier because of the comparison. "Remember when we didn't know what a restaurant looked like inside? haha, now we can uber eats kobe beef burgers! LOL! How amazing is that?!"

My kid, and his friends, all have super spoiled lives (to me). When something goes wrong, a little thing, they think it's a catastrophe. I just think "kid, you don't know what hard is". Maybe this is just old man talk now, because my mom said the same to me and I had it tough, though she was an immigrant single mom with nothing so had it worse. I try to make the life of my kid hard on purpose so his "baseline" won't be so high.

I just think that if your life is already 90/100 on the goodness scale, and it goes to 60/100, you feel like crap. But if your life is a 10/100 and it goes to 50/100, you feel great. Isn't that a thing? The relativity of the goodness of your life? I think it is.

[Metalcat]

I'd argue the opposite.  The media makes it seem like the average American is struggling to make ends meet, but I don't come across 'average' people struggling.  Sure, there are anecdotes and still homeless people, but not worse than it was pre Pandemic.

If anything, people are struggling because there is too much comfort.  I generally feel better about my life when I have some friction and resistance to overcome.  With too much comfort, I find my brain looking for things to be anxious about and my body feeling unhealthy and weak.

It's interesting you feel this way. I was watching a couple of doctors talk about this same thing. Apparently human beings basically look for problems. When there are no "real" problems (like imminent death, hunger, constant danger, etc.) and we haven't experienced any real problems for comparison, we elevate whatever smaller problems we have to anxiety producing levels... it's like a need. One of the doctors was hypothesizing that this is why the youth is so anxious/have so many mental problems, not because life is so hard, but because life is so easy.

This really isn't my experience as a healthcare professional and current therapist.

I do agree that living a distinctly easy life can cause a lot of emotional dysregulation, but I haven't found that the average person lacks substantial hardship.

I've treated thousands of people, in my last job before I became a therapist I was treating a general cross section of the upper middle class population in my area, ages under 1 to over 100, and I would say that the average person was grappling with some pretty gnarly shit.

The reason so many people are so miserable now is not because their lives are so easy, but because there's a brutal lack of deep, meaningful connection.

Humans are pretty obligatory social animals, and while we are more connected than ever, we are severely lacking the kind of connection and community we need to thrive.

I also take what MDs say about mental health worth a grain of salt. My med school classes were pretty shitty with respect to mental health. I'm pretty sure we were taught that only CBT works.

My experience is, of course, anecdotal. But I had a rough and poor childhood. Same with my SO and a batch of friends I grew up with. The ones I'm still in contact with and my SO all lead much better lives now and I feel like we're all pretty happy about it, but even happier because of the comparison. "Remember when we didn't know what a restaurant looked like inside? haha, now we can uber eats kobe beef burgers! LOL! How amazing is that?!"

My kid, and his friends, all have super spoiled lives (to me). When something goes wrong, a little thing, they think it's a catastrophe. I just think "kid, you don't know what hard is". Maybe this is just old man talk now, because my mom said the same to me and I had it tough, though she was an immigrant single mom with nothing so had it worse. I try to make the life of my kid hard on purpose so his "baseline" won't be so high.

I just think that if your life is already 90/100 on the goodness scale, and it goes to 60/100, you feel like crap. But if your life is a 10/100 and it goes to 50/100, you feel great. Isn't that a thing? The relativity of the goodness of your life? I think it is.

Again, this is not consistent with my experience as a healthcare provider.

Yes, some people face hardship and manage to thrive and build excellent resilience from that...others, not so much.

Also, human beings aren't rational creatures, so while what you have said sounds logical on the surface, that's just not how the human mind actually works, especially since hardship and misery don't actually correlate.

Misery happens when people face hardship with inadequate supports. A really fucking difficult life isn't a bad life and a really easy life isn't a good life. A life with appropriate supports is a good life and a life with insufficient supports is a bad life.

The more we lose meaningful connection, the more we lose the kind of supports that we really need to thrive through the inevitable hardships of life.

I've had a brutally, shockingly difficult life and I'm super chill, very happy person. I wasn't before, I was a fucking mess, but I've found a lot of amazing supports over the last decade that have foundationally altered my dynamic with my brutal history.

[twinstudy]

Some people have what it takes to weather hardship and others don't. I guess some of it comes down to support, but a lot of it comes down to internal drive, ability and grit.

I've always wondered why some people - in whatever vocation or profession - are better able to sustain themselves than others. I think of a surgeon who has to do a 24 hour shift or who has to wake up at 2am and immediately drive to hospital to do a life saving operation. Some people can do it and some can't. I think back to the last office job I had and the fact that some employees were absolute superstars who would get shit done without complaint, and others would clock off at 4pm regardless of whether it left someone else in the team high and dry. Incidentally, this disparity was the reason I quit my job and never looked back - I wasn't okay with working in an organisation where you could bill twice as much as another fee-earner and be paid only 10% more. There's no justice in that.

The way I see it, some people have accountability and others don't, and some have the ability to suffer and to work hard, and others don't.

[spartana]

Not to mention that gas should be such a small fraction of your overall spending that any non-crazy increases shouldn't matter to your budgeting

Lol that and car insurance, registration/tags, smogging, repairs and maintence, car replacement, etc. Of course I make up for it in food consumption to pedal my stupid bike everywhere ;-).

You know it’s funny. I live in suburban LI most of the year and I’m a bike rider, couple hundred miles a month.

But I would find it imporssible to bike for my general needs. Maybe a little groceries, OK. But we’re into Costco, Trader Joe’s, and others that are typically located in places that put me on roads I don’t consider bike-safe—or just too much stuff to load on a bike.

Then, mom’s half an hour away and friends are mostly further than a bike ride, and that’s not to mention parks, museums, beaches, and so on. The city is 40 minutes by train, and most of whatever else I do is a short car ride. Combined, my wife and I drive about 9k miles a year, so a price swing of a buck will only cost us $400-$500 a year, which is unremarkable.

When I was a kid my bike was definitely transportation. Now, not really.

It can definitely be a struggle sometimes but I've found some ways to make it easier like having a bike trailer for heavy or large stuff or getting small amounts of groceries each day (I often stop daily on my ride home for fresh fruit and veggies). I can also hitch a ride with someone to stock up on big heavy Costco type stuff. For the most part I lived withing 10 - 20 miles or less of everywhere I needed or wanted on a regular basis, and even when I had a car would usually bike. I just got back from about a 20 mile loop - park, library, beach, ride on beach bike path, grocery store (where I got cake!) and back to home.

My biggest struggles are fear of theft (old bike and trailer but still a hassle if stolen) and night riding when I want to do a night time activity or stay out late. Not always safe from cars or people.  That plus occasionally dressing up for something. Or emergencies to get to others fast if needed. But for most of those I could get an uber.

Personally I prefer biking or walking over driving, and the cost savings can be substantial, especially when you add in the cost of insurance and annual registration/licensing fees and repair/maintenance costpmus gas, but yeah, a PITA sometimes. And then there's bad weather! Or too much sun. Or ...some other problem you don't have to deal with when you have a car.

ETA: I also had a couple of larger dogs when I first went car-free in 2019 so that could be probmatic in an emergency as uber's don't always take dogs. But they rode in the trailer together (all 125 lbs combined) and the vet was just down the road but in an emergency I'd call BF, sister, neighbor or friend to take me.

[Metalcat]

Some people have what it takes to weather hardship and others don't. I guess some of it comes down to support, but a lot of it comes down to internal drive, ability and grit.

I've always wondered why some people - in whatever vocation or profession - are better able to sustain themselves than others. I think of a surgeon who has to do a 24 hour shift or who has to wake up at 2am and immediately drive to hospital to do a life saving operation. Some people can do it and some can't. I think back to the last office job I had and the fact that some employees were absolute superstars who would get shit done without complaint, and others would clock off at 4pm regardless of whether it left someone else in the team high and dry. Incidentally, this disparity was the reason I quit my job and never looked back - I wasn't okay with working in an organisation where you could bill twice as much as another fee-earner and be paid only 10% more. There's no justice in that.

The way I see it, some people have accountability and others don't, and some have the ability to suffer and to work hard, and others don't.

And where do you think the "internal drive" and "grit" come from?

Oh wait...they largely come from early life experiences of, y'know, facing challenges with the appropriate supports to develop drive and grit.

[Ron Scott]

Not to mention that gas should be such a small fraction of your overall spending that any non-crazy increases shouldn't matter to your budgeting

Lol that and car insurance, registration/tags, smogging, repairs and maintence, car replacement, etc. Of course I make up for it in food consumption to pedal my stupid bike everywhere ;-).

You know it’s funny. I live in suburban LI most of the year and I’m a bike rider, couple hundred miles a month.

But I would find it imporssible to bike for my general needs. Maybe a little groceries, OK. But we’re into Costco, Trader Joe’s, and others that are typically located in places that put me on roads I don’t consider bike-safe—or just too much stuff to load on a bike.

Then, mom’s half an hour away and friends are mostly further than a bike ride, and that’s not to mention parks, museums, beaches, and so on. The city is 40 minutes by train, and most of whatever else I do is a short car ride. Combined, my wife and I drive about 9k miles a year, so a price swing of a buck will only cost us $400-$500 a year, which is unremarkable.

When I was a kid my bike was definitely transportation. Now, not really.

It can definitely be a struggle sometimes but I've found some ways to make it easier like having a bike trailer for heavy or large stuff or getting small amounts of groceries each day (I often stop daily on my ride home for fresh fruit and veggies). I can also hitch a ride with someone to stock up on big heavy Costco type stuff. For the most part I lived withing 10 - 20 miles or less of everywhere I needed or wanted on a regular basis, and even when I had a car would usually bike. I just got back from about a 20 mile loop - park, library, beach, ride on beach bike path, grocery store (where I got cake!) and back to home.

My biggest struggles are fear of theft (old bike and trailer but still a hassle if stolen) and night riding when I want to do a night time activity or stay out late. Not always safe from cars or people.  That plus occasionally dressing up for something. Or emergencies to get to others fast if needed. But for most of those I could get an uber.

Personally I prefer biking or walking over driving, and the cost savings can be substantial, but yeah, a pita sometimes. And then there's bad weather!

ETA: I also had a couple of larger dogs when I first went car-free in 2019 so that could be probmatic in an emergency as uber's don't always take dogs. But they rode in the trailer together (all 125 lbs combined) and the vet was just down the road but in an emergency I'd call BF, sister, neighbor or friend to take me.

Girl—I will ALWAYS prefer a bike over a goddamn car, ALWAYS. I think I got one or 2 more centuries in me and hopefully a few more 6-day tours, but when I’m on a bike I am AT HOME and I’ve been that way since I was 6.

That said, I will give up my cars when I am laid to rest—but you’ve given me inspiration, and I will try a little more shopping via 2 wheels. (I own several bikes, one a city-kicker/touring bike that can handle all the weight you got.) We’ll see.

[Ron Scott]

Some people have what it takes to weather hardship and others don't. I guess some of it comes down to support, but a lot of it comes down to internal drive, ability and grit.

I've always wondered why some people - in whatever vocation or profession - are better able to sustain themselves than others. I think of a surgeon who has to do a 24 hour shift or who has to wake up at 2am and immediately drive to hospital to do a life saving operation. Some people can do it and some can't. I think back to the last office job I had and the fact that some employees were absolute superstars who would get shit done without complaint, and others would clock off at 4pm regardless of whether it left someone else in the team high and dry. Incidentally, this disparity was the reason I quit my job and never looked back - I wasn't okay with working in an organisation where you could bill twice as much as another fee-earner and be paid only 10% more. There's no justice in that.

The way I see it, some people have accountability and others don't, and some have the ability to suffer and to work hard, and others don't.

And where do you think the "internal drive" and "grit" come from?

Oh wait...they largely come from early life experiences of, y'know, facing challenges with the appropriate supports to develop drive and grit.

I am not sure what you mean by “appropriate support” so I’ll wait for clarification. FWIW I grew up POOR and had love and a kick in the ass for support, and that was all I needed.

In the meantime I’m liking twinstudy’s take on this one.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

I'd argue the opposite.  The media makes it seem like the average American is struggling to make ends meet, but I don't come across 'average' people struggling.  Sure, there are anecdotes and still homeless people, but not worse than it was pre Pandemic.

If anything, people are struggling because there is too much comfort.  I generally feel better about my life when I have some friction and resistance to overcome.  With too much comfort, I find my brain looking for things to be anxious about and my body feeling unhealthy and weak.

It's interesting you feel this way. I was watching a couple of doctors talk about this same thing. Apparently human beings basically look for problems. When there are no "real" problems (like imminent death, hunger, constant danger, etc.) and we haven't experienced any real problems for comparison, we elevate whatever smaller problems we have to anxiety producing levels... it's like a need. One of the doctors was hypothesizing that this is why the youth is so anxious/have so many mental problems, not because life is so hard, but because life is so easy.

This really isn't my experience as a healthcare professional and current therapist.

I do agree that living a distinctly easy life can cause a lot of emotional dysregulation, but I haven't found that the average person lacks substantial hardship.

I've treated thousands of people, in my last job before I became a therapist I was treating a general cross section of the upper middle class population in my area, ages under 1 to over 100, and I would say that the average person was grappling with some pretty gnarly shit.

The reason so many people are so miserable now is not because their lives are so easy, but because there's a brutal lack of deep, meaningful connection.

Humans are pretty obligatory social animals, and while we are more connected than ever, we are severely lacking the kind of connection and community we need to thrive.

I also take what MDs say about mental health worth a grain of salt. My med school classes were pretty shitty with respect to mental health. I'm pretty sure we were taught that only CBT works.

My experience is, of course, anecdotal. But I had a rough and poor childhood. Same with my SO and a batch of friends I grew up with. The ones I'm still in contact with and my SO all lead much better lives now and I feel like we're all pretty happy about it, but even happier because of the comparison. "Remember when we didn't know what a restaurant looked like inside? haha, now we can uber eats kobe beef burgers! LOL! How amazing is that?!"

My kid, and his friends, all have super spoiled lives (to me). When something goes wrong, a little thing, they think it's a catastrophe. I just think "kid, you don't know what hard is". Maybe this is just old man talk now, because my mom said the same to me and I had it tough, though she was an immigrant single mom with nothing so had it worse. I try to make the life of my kid hard on purpose so his "baseline" won't be so high.

I just think that if your life is already 90/100 on the goodness scale, and it goes to 60/100, you feel like crap. But if your life is a 10/100 and it goes to 50/100, you feel great. Isn't that a thing? The relativity of the goodness of your life? I think it is.

This resonates with what is going on in our suburbs.  Here in Houston, we have a large first generation community.  Those kids go to school like their life depends on every point of every grade until the get in to a tony college.  Meanwhile, the vast majority of kids do the bare minimum to get reasonably good grades. 

And within my family over the generations, my parents experienced the advent of so many modern conveniences like better TVs, the microwave, and countless quality of life improvements getting cheaper.  They always seemed pretty content that life was getting better and better.  My generation was probably the last pre-internet that teeters between everything getting better up to that point, then starting to experience the ills of social media, information overload and anxiety, etc in our kids lives...  My DW is an elementary school teacher and has stories of her students going to bed in front of their screens night after night and being exposed to all sorts of inappropriate crap hanging out with older siblings...

[Metalcat]

Some people have what it takes to weather hardship and others don't. I guess some of it comes down to support, but a lot of it comes down to internal drive, ability and grit.

I've always wondered why some people - in whatever vocation or profession - are better able to sustain themselves than others. I think of a surgeon who has to do a 24 hour shift or who has to wake up at 2am and immediately drive to hospital to do a life saving operation. Some people can do it and some can't. I think back to the last office job I had and the fact that some employees were absolute superstars who would get shit done without complaint, and others would clock off at 4pm regardless of whether it left someone else in the team high and dry. Incidentally, this disparity was the reason I quit my job and never looked back - I wasn't okay with working in an organisation where you could bill twice as much as another fee-earner and be paid only 10% more. There's no justice in that.

The way I see it, some people have accountability and others don't, and some have the ability to suffer and to work hard, and others don't.

And where do you think the "internal drive" and "grit" come from?

Oh wait...they largely come from early life experiences of, y'know, facing challenges with the appropriate supports to develop drive and grit.

I am not sure what you mean by “appropriate support” so I’ll wait for clarification. FWIW I grew up POOR and had love and a kick in the ass for support, and that was all I needed.

In the meantime I’m liking twinstudy’s take on this one.

You literally just described having appropriate support.

Where was I not clear about what I meant by support? Did I not say that it came down to deep connections with people? Healthy love and pressure from a supportive family is exactly that.

That's exactly how someone develops resilience in the face of challenges.

Not everyone gets love and a supportive kick in the ass as a kid.

[spartana]

Not to mention that gas should be such a small fraction of your overall spending that any non-crazy increases shouldn't matter to your budgeting

Lol that and car insurance, registration/tags, smogging, repairs and maintence, car replacement, etc. Of course I make up for it in food consumption to pedal my stupid bike everywhere ;-).

You know it’s funny. I live in suburban LI most of the year and I’m a bike rider, couple hundred miles a month.

But I would find it imporssible to bike for my general needs. Maybe a little groceries, OK. But we’re into Costco, Trader Joe’s, and others that are typically located in places that put me on roads I don’t consider bike-safe—or just too much stuff to load on a bike.

Then, mom’s half an hour away and friends are mostly further than a bike ride, and that’s not to mention parks, museums, beaches, and so on. The city is 40 minutes by train, and most of whatever else I do is a short car ride. Combined, my wife and I drive about 9k miles a year, so a price swing of a buck will only cost us $400-$500 a year, which is unremarkable.

When I was a kid my bike was definitely transportation. Now, not really.

It can definitely be a struggle sometimes but I've found some ways to make it easier like having a bike trailer for heavy or large stuff or getting small amounts of groceries each day (I often stop daily on my ride home for fresh fruit and veggies). I can also hitch a ride with someone to stock up on big heavy Costco type stuff. For the most part I lived withing 10 - 20 miles or less of everywhere I needed or wanted on a regular basis, and even when I had a car would usually bike. I just got back from about a 20 mile loop - park, library, beach, ride on beach bike path, grocery store (where I got cake!) and back to home.

My biggest struggles are fear of theft (old bike and trailer but still a hassle if stolen) and night riding when I want to do a night time activity or stay out late. Not always safe from cars or people.  That plus occasionally dressing up for something. Or emergencies to get to others fast if needed. But for most of those I could get an uber.

Personally I prefer biking or walking over driving, and the cost savings can be substantial, but yeah, a pita sometimes. And then there's bad weather!

ETA: I also had a couple of larger dogs when I first went car-free in 2019 so that could be probmatic in an emergency as uber's don't always take dogs. But they rode in the trailer together (all 125 lbs combined) and the vet was just down the road but in an emergency I'd call BF, sister, neighbor or friend to take me.

Girl—I will ALWAYS prefer a bike over a goddamn car, ALWAYS. I think I got one or 2 more centuries in me and hopefully a few more 6-day tours, but when I’m on a bike I am AT HOME and I’ve been that way since I was 6.

That said, I will give up my cars when I am laid to rest—but you’ve given me inspiration, and I will try a little more shopping via 2 wheels. (I own several bikes, one a city-kicker/touring bike that can handle all the weight you got.) We’ll see.

Well I may be striped of my biking laurals soon as I'm planning to get a car! Or am I? I always say I'm going to but then don't. If I give up biking and walking everywhere I'll have to give up cake. And that's just wrong ;-).

But seriously I'm moving this weekend to a place that's extremely bikeable but will get a vehicle soon and just hope I don't fall throes to hedonistic adaptation of cushy seats, AC, heater, music, and drive thru food all without having to lift a finger. No more sweaty, helmet head hair, bugs in my face. Yeah - getting a car isn't going to end well for me LOL.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

Not to mention that gas should be such a small fraction of your overall spending that any non-crazy increases shouldn't matter to your budgeting

Lol that and car insurance, registration/tags, smogging, repairs and maintence, car replacement, etc. Of course I make up for it in food consumption to pedal my stupid bike everywhere ;-).

You know it’s funny. I live in suburban LI most of the year and I’m a bike rider, couple hundred miles a month.

But I would find it imporssible to bike for my general needs. Maybe a little groceries, OK. But we’re into Costco, Trader Joe’s, and others that are typically located in places that put me on roads I don’t consider bike-safe—or just too much stuff to load on a bike.

Then, mom’s half an hour away and friends are mostly further than a bike ride, and that’s not to mention parks, museums, beaches, and so on. The city is 40 minutes by train, and most of whatever else I do is a short car ride. Combined, my wife and I drive about 9k miles a year, so a price swing of a buck will only cost us $400-$500 a year, which is unremarkable.

When I was a kid my bike was definitely transportation. Now, not really.

It can definitely be a struggle sometimes but I've found some ways to make it easier like having a bike trailer for heavy or large stuff or getting small amounts of groceries each day (I often stop daily on my ride home for fresh fruit and veggies). I can also hitch a ride with someone to stock up on big heavy Costco type stuff. For the most part I lived withing 10 - 20 miles or less of everywhere I needed or wanted on a regular basis, and even when I had a car would usually bike. I just got back from about a 20 mile loop - park, library, beach, ride on beach bike path, grocery store (where I got cake!) and back to home.

My biggest struggles are fear of theft (old bike and trailer but still a hassle if stolen) and night riding when I want to do a night time activity or stay out late. Not always safe from cars or people.  That plus occasionally dressing up for something. Or emergencies to get to others fast if needed. But for most of those I could get an uber.

Personally I prefer biking or walking over driving, and the cost savings can be substantial, but yeah, a pita sometimes. And then there's bad weather!

ETA: I also had a couple of larger dogs when I first went car-free in 2019 so that could be probmatic in an emergency as uber's don't always take dogs. But they rode in the trailer together (all 125 lbs combined) and the vet was just down the road but in an emergency I'd call BF, sister, neighbor or friend to take me.

Girl—I will ALWAYS prefer a bike over a goddamn car, ALWAYS. I think I got one or 2 more centuries in me and hopefully a few more 6-day tours, but when I’m on a bike I am AT HOME and I’ve been that way since I was 6.

That said, I will give up my cars when I am laid to rest—but you’ve given me inspiration, and I will try a little more shopping via 2 wheels. (I own several bikes, one a city-kicker/touring bike that can handle all the weight you got.) We’ll see.

Well I may be striped of my biking laurals soon as I'm planning to get a car! Or am I? I always say I'm going to but then don't. If I give up biking and walking everywhere I'll have to give up cake. And that's just wrong ;-).

But seriously I'm moving this weekend to a place that's extremely bikeable but will get a vehicle soon and just hope I don't fall throes to hedonistic adaptation of cushy seats, AC, heater, music, and drive thru food all without having to lift a finger. No more sweaty, helmet head hair, bugs in my face. Yeah - getting a car isn't going to end well for me LOL.

You might want to get a catheter to go with that car Spartana!

Just kidding ofc

[twinstudy]

Some people have what it takes to weather hardship and others don't. I guess some of it comes down to support, but a lot of it comes down to internal drive, ability and grit.

I've always wondered why some people - in whatever vocation or profession - are better able to sustain themselves than others. I think of a surgeon who has to do a 24 hour shift or who has to wake up at 2am and immediately drive to hospital to do a life saving operation. Some people can do it and some can't. I think back to the last office job I had and the fact that some employees were absolute superstars who would get shit done without complaint, and others would clock off at 4pm regardless of whether it left someone else in the team high and dry. Incidentally, this disparity was the reason I quit my job and never looked back - I wasn't okay with working in an organisation where you could bill twice as much as another fee-earner and be paid only 10% more. There's no justice in that.

The way I see it, some people have accountability and others don't, and some have the ability to suffer and to work hard, and others don't.

And where do you think the "internal drive" and "grit" come from?

Oh wait...they largely come from early life experiences of, y'know, facing challenges with the appropriate supports to develop drive and grit.

I am not sure what you mean by “appropriate support” so I’ll wait for clarification. FWIW I grew up POOR and had love and a kick in the ass for support, and that was all I needed.

In the meantime I’m liking twinstudy’s take on this one.

You literally just described having appropriate support.

Where was I not clear about what I meant by support? Did I not say that it came down to deep connections with people? Healthy love and pressure from a supportive family is exactly that.

That's exactly how someone develops resilience in the face of challenges.

Not everyone gets love and a supportive kick in the ass as a kid.

Hmm, I'm not sure that everything relating to discipline and willpower can be boiled down to deep connections and healthy love as a kid. Otherwise no kid from a bad family or dodgy background would ever make it.

I'd agree with supportive pressure - whether from family, friends or school. You need enough pressure to force you to work hard and seek failure and grow from it, but not enough pressure that you crack entirely. My own view is that society doesn't place enough pressure on people, which is why most underachieve.

[Morning Glory]

Some people have what it takes to weather hardship and others don't. I guess some of it comes down to support, but a lot of it comes down to internal drive, ability and grit.

I've always wondered why some people - in whatever vocation or profession - are better able to sustain themselves than others. I think of a surgeon who has to do a 24 hour shift or who has to wake up at 2am and immediately drive to hospital to do a life saving operation. Some people can do it and some can't. I think back to the last office job I had and the fact that some employees were absolute superstars who would get shit done without complaint, and others would clock off at 4pm regardless of whether it left someone else in the team high and dry. Incidentally, this disparity was the reason I quit my job and never looked back - I wasn't okay with working in an organisation where you could bill twice as much as another fee-earner and be paid only 10% more. There's no justice in that.

The way I see it, some people have accountability and others don't, and some have the ability to suffer and to work hard, and others don't.

And where do you think the "internal drive" and "grit" come from?

Oh wait...they largely come from early life experiences of, y'know, facing challenges with the appropriate supports to develop drive and grit.

I am not sure what you mean by “appropriate support” so I’ll wait for clarification. FWIW I grew up POOR and had love and a kick in the ass for support, and that was all I needed.

In the meantime I’m liking twinstudy’s take on this one.

You literally just described having appropriate support.

Where was I not clear about what I meant by support? Did I not say that it came down to deep connections with people? Healthy love and pressure from a supportive family is exactly that.

That's exactly how someone develops resilience in the face of challenges.

Not everyone gets love and a supportive kick in the ass as a kid.

Hmm, I'm not sure that everything relating to discipline and willpower can be boiled down to deep connections and healthy love as a kid. Otherwise no kid from a bad family or dodgy background would ever make it.

I'd agree with supportive pressure - whether from family, friends or school. You need enough pressure to force you to work hard and seek failure and grow from it, but not enough pressure that you crack entirely. My own view is that society doesn't place enough pressure on people, which is why most underachieve.

The examples you gave don't seem to relate to willpower so much as freedom from responsibilities outside of work. People who stay late at work in the evening likely dont have caregiving responsibility for children or elderly relatives,  either because they dont have any or have a stay at home spouse. The surgeon who goes in at 2am almost certainly can afford a live-in nanny if she doesn't have a spouse at home. Lots of people also have medical issues that cause fatigue and dont allow them to work as much as you seem to think is necessary.  It's not reasonable to expect everyone to be available to work 24/7, especially if there aren't good quality affordable outsourcing options for childcare and elder care.

[Metalcat]

Some people have what it takes to weather hardship and others don't. I guess some of it comes down to support, but a lot of it comes down to internal drive, ability and grit.

I've always wondered why some people - in whatever vocation or profession - are better able to sustain themselves than others. I think of a surgeon who has to do a 24 hour shift or who has to wake up at 2am and immediately drive to hospital to do a life saving operation. Some people can do it and some can't. I think back to the last office job I had and the fact that some employees were absolute superstars who would get shit done without complaint, and others would clock off at 4pm regardless of whether it left someone else in the team high and dry. Incidentally, this disparity was the reason I quit my job and never looked back - I wasn't okay with working in an organisation where you could bill twice as much as another fee-earner and be paid only 10% more. There's no justice in that.

The way I see it, some people have accountability and others don't, and some have the ability to suffer and to work hard, and others don't.

And where do you think the "internal drive" and "grit" come from?

Oh wait...they largely come from early life experiences of, y'know, facing challenges with the appropriate supports to develop drive and grit.

I am not sure what you mean by “appropriate support” so I’ll wait for clarification. FWIW I grew up POOR and had love and a kick in the ass for support, and that was all I needed.

In the meantime I’m liking twinstudy’s take on this one.

You literally just described having appropriate support.

Where was I not clear about what I meant by support? Did I not say that it came down to deep connections with people? Healthy love and pressure from a supportive family is exactly that.

That's exactly how someone develops resilience in the face of challenges.

Not everyone gets love and a supportive kick in the ass as a kid.

Hmm, I'm not sure that everything relating to discipline and willpower can be boiled down to deep connections and healthy love as a kid. Otherwise no kid from a bad family or dodgy background would ever make it.

I'd agree with supportive pressure - whether from family, friends or school. You need enough pressure to force you to work hard and seek failure and grow from it, but not enough pressure that you crack entirely. My own view is that society doesn't place enough pressure on people, which is why most underachieve.

I'll just politely disagree with you.

Many of us who grew up in truly horrific experiences did receive enough love and support to thrive.

There are a lot of flavours of love and support, no one gets perfectly optimal support in their life, but those who get the most appropriate types of support when they need them tend to be more resilient.

I suppose your position is that some people are just born to be resilient and some aren't?

[spartana]

Not to mention that gas should be such a small fraction of your overall spending that any non-crazy increases shouldn't matter to your budgeting

Lol that and car insurance, registration/tags, smogging, repairs and maintence, car replacement, etc. Of course I make up for it in food consumption to pedal my stupid bike everywhere ;-).

You know it’s funny. I live in suburban LI most of the year and I’m a bike rider, couple hundred miles a month.

But I would find it imporssible to bike for my general needs. Maybe a little groceries, OK. But we’re into Costco, Trader Joe’s, and others that are typically located in places that put me on roads I don’t consider bike-safe—or just too much stuff to load on a bike.

Then, mom’s half an hour away and friends are mostly further than a bike ride, and that’s not to mention parks, museums, beaches, and so on. The city is 40 minutes by train, and most of whatever else I do is a short car ride. Combined, my wife and I drive about 9k miles a year, so a price swing of a buck will only cost us $400-$500 a year, which is unremarkable.

When I was a kid my bike was definitely transportation. Now, not really.

It can definitely be a struggle sometimes but I've found some ways to make it easier like having a bike trailer for heavy or large stuff or getting small amounts of groceries each day (I often stop daily on my ride home for fresh fruit and veggies). I can also hitch a ride with someone to stock up on big heavy Costco type stuff. For the most part I lived withing 10 - 20 miles or less of everywhere I needed or wanted on a regular basis, and even when I had a car would usually bike. I just got back from about a 20 mile loop - park, library, beach, ride on beach bike path, grocery store (where I got cake!) and back to home.

My biggest struggles are fear of theft (old bike and trailer but still a hassle if stolen) and night riding when I want to do a night time activity or stay out late. Not always safe from cars or people.  That plus occasionally dressing up for something. Or emergencies to get to others fast if needed. But for most of those I could get an uber.

Personally I prefer biking or walking over driving, and the cost savings can be substantial, but yeah, a pita sometimes. And then there's bad weather!

ETA: I also had a couple of larger dogs when I first went car-free in 2019 so that could be probmatic in an emergency as uber's don't always take dogs. But they rode in the trailer together (all 125 lbs combined) and the vet was just down the road but in an emergency I'd call BF, sister, neighbor or friend to take me.

Girl—I will ALWAYS prefer a bike over a goddamn car, ALWAYS. I think I got one or 2 more centuries in me and hopefully a few more 6-day tours, but when I’m on a bike I am AT HOME and I’ve been that way since I was 6.

That said, I will give up my cars when I am laid to rest—but you’ve given me inspiration, and I will try a little more shopping via 2 wheels. (I own several bikes, one a city-kicker/touring bike that can handle all the weight you got.) We’ll see.

Well I may be striped of my biking laurals soon as I'm planning to get a car! Or am I? I always say I'm going to but then don't. If I give up biking and walking everywhere I'll have to give up cake. And that's just wrong ;-).

But seriously I'm moving this weekend to a place that's extremely bikeable but will get a vehicle soon and just hope I don't fall throes to hedonistic adaptation of cushy seats, AC, heater, music, and drive thru food all without having to lift a finger. No more sweaty, helmet head hair, bugs in my face. Yeah - getting a car isn't going to end well for me LOL.

You might want to get a catheter to go with that car Spartana!

Just kidding ofc

LOL! I can pimp it out like Homer Simpson:

[twinstudy]

Some people have what it takes to weather hardship and others don't. I guess some of it comes down to support, but a lot of it comes down to internal drive, ability and grit.

I've always wondered why some people - in whatever vocation or profession - are better able to sustain themselves than others. I think of a surgeon who has to do a 24 hour shift or who has to wake up at 2am and immediately drive to hospital to do a life saving operation. Some people can do it and some can't. I think back to the last office job I had and the fact that some employees were absolute superstars who would get shit done without complaint, and others would clock off at 4pm regardless of whether it left someone else in the team high and dry. Incidentally, this disparity was the reason I quit my job and never looked back - I wasn't okay with working in an organisation where you could bill twice as much as another fee-earner and be paid only 10% more. There's no justice in that.

The way I see it, some people have accountability and others don't, and some have the ability to suffer and to work hard, and others don't.

And where do you think the "internal drive" and "grit" come from?

Oh wait...they largely come from early life experiences of, y'know, facing challenges with the appropriate supports to develop drive and grit.

I am not sure what you mean by “appropriate support” so I’ll wait for clarification. FWIW I grew up POOR and had love and a kick in the ass for support, and that was all I needed.

In the meantime I’m liking twinstudy’s take on this one.

You literally just described having appropriate support.

Where was I not clear about what I meant by support? Did I not say that it came down to deep connections with people? Healthy love and pressure from a supportive family is exactly that.

That's exactly how someone develops resilience in the face of challenges.

Not everyone gets love and a supportive kick in the ass as a kid.

Hmm, I'm not sure that everything relating to discipline and willpower can be boiled down to deep connections and healthy love as a kid. Otherwise no kid from a bad family or dodgy background would ever make it.

I'd agree with supportive pressure - whether from family, friends or school. You need enough pressure to force you to work hard and seek failure and grow from it, but not enough pressure that you crack entirely. My own view is that society doesn't place enough pressure on people, which is why most underachieve.

I'll just politely disagree with you.

Many of us who grew up in truly horrific experiences did receive enough love and support to thrive.

There are a lot of flavours of love and support, no one gets perfectly optimal support in their life, but those who get the most appropriate types of support when they need them tend to be more resilient.

I suppose your position is that some people are just born to be resilient and some aren't?

I think it's a mix of nature and nurture. I think resilience is a property that is also modified by willpower and desire, and some people don't have the willpower or desire to actively put themselves through hardship for the sake of achieving something academically/vocationally.

The examples you gave don't seem to relate to willpower so much as freedom from responsibilities outside of work. People who stay late at work in the evening likely dont have caregiving responsibility for children or elderly relatives,  either because they dont have any or have a stay at home spouse. The surgeon who goes in at 2am almost certainly can afford a live-in nanny if she doesn't have a spouse at home. Lots of people also have medical issues that cause fatigue and dont allow them to work as much as you seem to think is necessary.  It's not reasonable to expect everyone to be available to work 24/7, especially if there aren't good quality affordable outsourcing options for childcare and elder care.

Your reasoning assumes that everyone who logs off work early or who underachieves at work does so due to having caring responsibilities for children/elderly relatives, but that doesn't apply to a large section of the population (for example, most Gen Ys now in their 20s would have responsibility for neither). It also assumes that someone in a difficult and strenuous occupation must necessarily be skimping on, or offloading, his or her caring duties - my anecdotal experience is that some of the best workers I know are also great mums and dads - they will assiduously attend to the 4pm school run and then send off emails at 10 or 11pm at night when the kids are in bed.

I'm not saying this is the only, or even the best, way to live - the whole point of FIRE is to not have work interfere so much with life - but I think the ability to do this, to withstand this (whether for work or for some passion project), is a good thing, and should be cultivated.

[NorthernIkigai]

Not to mention that gas should be such a small fraction of your overall spending that any non-crazy increases shouldn't matter to your budgeting

Lol that and car insurance, registration/tags, smogging, repairs and maintence, car replacement, etc. Of course I make up for it in food consumption to pedal my stupid bike everywhere ;-).

You know it’s funny. I live in suburban LI most of the year and I’m a bike rider, couple hundred miles a month.

But I would find it imporssible to bike for my general needs. Maybe a little groceries, OK. But we’re into Costco, Trader Joe’s, and others that are typically located in places that put me on roads I don’t consider bike-safe—or just too much stuff to load on a bike.

Then, mom’s half an hour away and friends are mostly further than a bike ride, and that’s not to mention parks, museums, beaches, and so on. The city is 40 minutes by train, and most of whatever else I do is a short car ride. Combined, my wife and I drive about 9k miles a year, so a price swing of a buck will only cost us $400-$500 a year, which is unremarkable.

When I was a kid my bike was definitely transportation. Now, not really.

It can definitely be a struggle sometimes but I've found some ways to make it easier like having a bike trailer for heavy or large stuff or getting small amounts of groceries each day (I often stop daily on my ride home for fresh fruit and veggies). I can also hitch a ride with someone to stock up on big heavy Costco type stuff. For the most part I lived withing 10 - 20 miles or less of everywhere I needed or wanted on a regular basis, and even when I had a car would usually bike. I just got back from about a 20 mile loop - park, library, beach, ride on beach bike path, grocery store (where I got cake!) and back to home.

My biggest struggles are fear of theft (old bike and trailer but still a hassle if stolen) and night riding when I want to do a night time activity or stay out late. Not always safe from cars or people.  That plus occasionally dressing up for something. Or emergencies to get to others fast if needed. But for most of those I could get an uber.

Personally I prefer biking or walking over driving, and the cost savings can be substantial, but yeah, a pita sometimes. And then there's bad weather!

ETA: I also had a couple of larger dogs when I first went car-free in 2019 so that could be probmatic in an emergency as uber's don't always take dogs. But they rode in the trailer together (all 125 lbs combined) and the vet was just down the road but in an emergency I'd call BF, sister, neighbor or friend to take me.

Girl—I will ALWAYS prefer a bike over a goddamn car, ALWAYS. I think I got one or 2 more centuries in me and hopefully a few more 6-day tours, but when I’m on a bike I am AT HOME and I’ve been that way since I was 6.

That said, I will give up my cars when I am laid to rest—but you’ve given me inspiration, and I will try a little more shopping via 2 wheels. (I own several bikes, one a city-kicker/touring bike that can handle all the weight you got.) We’ll see.

Well I may be striped of my biking laurals soon as I'm planning to get a car! Or am I? I always say I'm going to but then don't. If I give up biking and walking everywhere I'll have to give up cake. And that's just wrong ;-).

But seriously I'm moving this weekend to a place that's extremely bikeable but will get a vehicle soon and just hope I don't fall throes to hedonistic adaptation of cushy seats, AC, heater, music, and drive thru food all without having to lift a finger. No more sweaty, helmet head hair, bugs in my face. Yeah - getting a car isn't going to end well for me LOL.

Don’t do it! :-)

Remember, using your muscles and being in good shape isn’t just about being able to eat more cake, it’s is very important for your overal health (and it gets more important the older we get).

Also, I can’t believe “better TVs” keeps coming up as an advantage of our current lives compared to the olden days. Seriously? And this among Mustachians? :-)

[spartana]

Not to mention that gas should be such a small fraction of your overall spending that any non-crazy increases shouldn't matter to your budgeting

Lol that and car insurance, registration/tags, smogging, repairs and maintence, car replacement, etc. Of course I make up for it in food consumption to pedal my stupid bike everywhere ;-).

You know it’s funny. I live in suburban LI most of the year and I’m a bike rider, couple hundred miles a month.

But I would find it imporssible to bike for my general needs. Maybe a little groceries, OK. But we’re into Costco, Trader Joe’s, and others that are typically located in places that put me on roads I don’t consider bike-safe—or just too much stuff to load on a bike.

Then, mom’s half an hour away and friends are mostly further than a bike ride, and that’s not to mention parks, museums, beaches, and so on. The city is 40 minutes by train, and most of whatever else I do is a short car ride. Combined, my wife and I drive about 9k miles a year, so a price swing of a buck will only cost us $400-$500 a year, which is unremarkable.

When I was a kid my bike was definitely transportation. Now, not really.

It can definitely be a struggle sometimes but I've found some ways to make it easier like having a bike trailer for heavy or large stuff or getting small amounts of groceries each day (I often stop daily on my ride home for fresh fruit and veggies). I can also hitch a ride with someone to stock up on big heavy Costco type stuff. For the most part I lived withing 10 - 20 miles or less of everywhere I needed or wanted on a regular basis, and even when I had a car would usually bike. I just got back from about a 20 mile loop - park, library, beach, ride on beach bike path, grocery store (where I got cake!) and back to home.

My biggest struggles are fear of theft (old bike and trailer but still a hassle if stolen) and night riding when I want to do a night time activity or stay out late. Not always safe from cars or people.  That plus occasionally dressing up for something. Or emergencies to get to others fast if needed. But for most of those I could get an uber.

Personally I prefer biking or walking over driving, and the cost savings can be substantial, but yeah, a pita sometimes. And then there's bad weather!

ETA: I also had a couple of larger dogs when I first went car-free in 2019 so that could be probmatic in an emergency as uber's don't always take dogs. But they rode in the trailer together (all 125 lbs combined) and the vet was just down the road but in an emergency I'd call BF, sister, neighbor or friend to take me.

Girl—I will ALWAYS prefer a bike over a goddamn car, ALWAYS. I think I got one or 2 more centuries in me and hopefully a few more 6-day tours, but when I’m on a bike I am AT HOME and I’ve been that way since I was 6.

That said, I will give up my cars when I am laid to rest—but you’ve given me inspiration, and I will try a little more shopping via 2 wheels. (I own several bikes, one a city-kicker/touring bike that can handle all the weight you got.) We’ll see.

Well I may be striped of my biking laurals soon as I'm planning to get a car! Or am I? I always say I'm going to but then don't. If I give up biking and walking everywhere I'll have to give up cake. And that's just wrong ;-).

But seriously I'm moving this weekend to a place that's extremely bikeable but will get a vehicle soon and just hope I don't fall throes to hedonistic adaptation of cushy seats, AC, heater, music, and drive thru food all without having to lift a finger. No more sweaty, helmet head hair, bugs in my face. Yeah - getting a car isn't going to end well for me LOL.

Don’t do it! :-)

Remember, using your muscles and being in good shape isn’t just about being able to eat more cake, it’s is very important for your overal health (and it gets more important the older we get).

Also, I can’t believe “better TVs” keeps coming up as an advantage of our current lives compared to the olden days. Seriously? And this among Mustachians? :-)

Heretic!!! I plan to die the fittest unhealthy person alive...er...dead. Death by 1000 slices... of cake!

I really don't think I'll give up my healthy ways and workout less since I didn't when I had a car and rarely drove unless longer distances or road trips. But yeah it's easy just to hop in a car to do chores or go to local places so do have to resist that.

[Log]

The discussion of the downsides of life being too easy ring very true to me. Much of our social malaise these days comes from living in a world of abundance. This includes the social disconnection, which is partially driven by it being too comfortable and entertaining to sit around alone looking at an abundance of free and addictive entertainment, instead of needing to go out into the world and hang out with people for entertainment.

Some of the quibbling with the notion that some people are more driven than others seems a little reflexively ideological. I think it should be fairly uncontroversial to state that the uneven distribution of conscientiousness/drive/grit/hard-working-ness, like most other human traits, comes from both nature and nurture. Of course there's a meaningful genetic component. Some people can be provided all the loving support in the world, and still just be dispositionally lazier.

The genetic lottery is not fair. Some people are just born with traits that make them "better" than others in various ways. We can strive to make a society that gives people the best opportunities it can within their genetic limitations, and treats the genetically unluckiest people with dignity and respect. But to my mind, the notion that humans are infinitely mutable is faulty and does a lot of harm. Lots of people simply can not ever "learn to code." Lots of people cannot pass the marshmallow test. And lots of people are lazy. It is what it is.