Author Topic: If 1M is good, is 10M better?  (Read 30391 times)

spartana

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #100 on: July 30, 2024, 09:44:59 AM »
But you don’t have to buy headache inducing, high maintenance stuff just because you have 10M or more.  Maybe it gets harder for some folks to resist?  But not for a true Mustachian.  I still drive my 2015 Honda Fit and love being carefree about dings, parking spaces, being robbed, etc.  We will probably also downsize our home once our kids move out.  The only thing we spend more on is travel, but nobody seems too interested in out NW.  Maybe being an engineer and teacher helps, but more apt titles would be investors and philanthropists…
That's because we're all the cool kids who understand The Ways of the Mustache so arent going to fall for everything we see that will supposedly be better just because we have some extra money. I mean it's not like we're going about our happy low expenses lifestyle of riding our bike and DIY projects and suddenly decide to buy a $50k or $100k or $500k new car (maybe a Tesla) just because we believe it'll make us happier and we can afford it right? ;-). Probably unlikely since we wouldn't have saved any money if that was our mindset. Personally I'd be tempted to buy stuff if I hadn't learned what really gives me happiness.  Not that I'd turn down $10 million but I wouldn't work longer for it - or any amount over my personal "enoughness" level.




bluecollarmusician

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #101 on: July 30, 2024, 09:49:00 AM »
"I will take the money, though I don't know how to spend it..."

spartana

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #102 on: July 30, 2024, 10:25:17 AM »
"I will take the money, though I don't know how to spend it..."
Well I wouldn't spend it and I wouldn't just sit on it either. Charity. Of course my online Ethiopean Prince says he could use it all to save his country and free his father the King - perhaps The Mattress King - in which case  the world will once again be rich in Ethiopian mattresses to guitar Steve's great joy!

I can't really think of a downside to having more money if it's kept in stealth wealth mode for the most part instead of flashed about. - and for some people flashing your wealth may be an upside if seeking a certain kind of life.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2024, 10:27:34 AM by spartana »

bluecollarmusician

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #103 on: July 30, 2024, 10:32:37 AM »
@spartana I was just being silly. Paraphrasing Frodo in LOTR, per comments upstream. Lol tonthe Ethiopian prince.... :-p

NorthernIkigai

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #104 on: July 30, 2024, 10:54:15 AM »
"I will take the money, though I don't know how to spend it..."
Well I wouldn't spend it and I wouldn't just sit on it either. Charity. Of course my online Ethiopean Prince says he could use it all to save his country and free his father the King - perhaps The Mattress King - in which case  the world will once again be rich in Ethiopian mattresses to guitar Steve's great joy!

I can't really think of a downside to having more money if it's kept in stealth wealth mode for the most part instead of flashed about. - and for some people flashing your wealth may be an upside if seeking a certain kind of life.

For me there would be a downside: “oh, no, with this kind of money I can’t just live my normal life and give some to family and charity, this is SERIOUS money and I should do something SIGNIFICANT with it”. Cue stress about researching optimal solutions.

spartana

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #105 on: July 30, 2024, 11:10:16 AM »
"I will take the money, though I don't know how to spend it..."
Well I wouldn't spend it and I wouldn't just sit on it either. Charity. Of course my online Ethiopean Prince says he could use it all to save his country and free his father the King - perhaps The Mattress King - in which case  the world will once again be rich in Ethiopian mattresses to guitar Steve's great joy!

I can't really think of a downside to having more money if it's kept in stealth wealth mode for the most part instead of flashed about. - and for some people flashing your wealth may be an upside if seeking a certain kind of life.

For me there would be a downside: “oh, no, with this kind of money I can’t just live my normal life and give some to family and charity, this is SERIOUS money and I should do something SIGNIFICANT with it”. Cue stress about researching optimal solutions.
That would cause me a lot of stress too! I'd probably want to unload it fast to something I deemed worthwhile and in need rather then have to deal with it every year - even if it would become more valuable if kept invested and I could oversee that money myself. And decide to who and what amount was given away each year. Rich people problems for sure.


Laura33

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #106 on: July 30, 2024, 11:50:05 AM »
I don't know that there is some objective "right" level for everyone.  It's all subjective and very, very personal.  Taylor Swift's life would make me absolutely miserable, because I am a very different person with very different needs.  And yet MMM's life would also not make me happy for the same reason.  And both of them would probably hate my life with an equal passion. 

I go back to that "two levels above/below" thing that I can't ever remember the name of.  I am anchored around where I am now.  I can easily answer for $1M or $10M because they're within my range of understanding.  I cannot possibly answer for $100M or $1B, because that is so far beyond my own experience that I have no idea how I'd actually feel/think.  And yet the people who have $100M or $1B aren't exactly giving it all away because they're miserable and want to have less and be happier.  So I think for someone with say $1B, it's not about the money per se, it's about doing the thing that brings in that money -- it's some driver to achieve or create or whatever, and the money comes along with it.

I do think that different levels of money bring different kinds of problems, and that the people most likely to get in trouble are those who suddenly change status without the knowledge/experience/guidance to handle that successfully -- particularly if you think having more money solves all your problems and thus are completely unprepared to face the "mo money" problems when they do happen.  I remember when DD was small and asking me to buy her things, and I'd always say, "no, we can't afford it"; then I realized that was not true.  I was repeating the line I had heard my whole life, but we were much more well-off, so I needed to figure out how much is enough and how to raise kids when I had more money than I actually needed. 

Now, that was a much better problem to have than my mom dealt with; she said no all the time because we truly couldn't afford it.  And I sure as hell wasn't going to quit my job so I could re-create the poverty of my childhood, just so I didn't have to figure out how to handle DD's questions.  But it was still a new issue that our greater wealth created, and I had to figure out how to manage that.  And after 20+ years, I've figured out how to manage most of the issues that come along with the $1-to-$10M wealth range.  But I still have no experience in the $100M or $1B range, so I have no idea what those issues actually would be.   

For me, $10M is better than $1M, because of the freedom it brings.  Like my mom was able to help my sister buy a house post-divorce so she didn't have to uproot the kids.  And when my MIL had cancer and was prescribed a drug and Medicare was fussing about coverage, my FIL just plunked down $20K to get her started on the meds, without batting an eye.  I like the idea of having a big pot of money that I never intend to touch but that is there for those unexpected things; again, going back to the whole growing-up-poor thing, knowing that I can solve a problem by throwing money at it gives me a tremendous sense of comfort and happiness, even when I don't choose to solve the problem that way. 

OTOH, I wouldn't want $100M, if it meant that everyone knew who I was and how much I was worth.  Which means I probably don't want it, period.  I have a ridiculous pull to real estate; I visit somewhere and love it so much and want a home there.  So if I had $100M, I'd be the person with like 8 homes.  And if I was always out traveling and buying new homes, everyone would have a really good idea of how much I was worth, which we've established would make me unhappy.  So better not to be tempted. ;-)  OTOH, other people with different personalities seem to handle that just fine -- and like I said, they're not exactly giving their money away to reduce their wealth to my range because they're unhappy having so much.  So I have to assume that from their perspective, $100M or $1B is better than $10M or $1M. 

Log

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #107 on: July 30, 2024, 12:06:16 PM »
In the "no additional work necessary" hypothetical, I think $10M is definitely better than $1M. Just spend relatively freely on an upper middle class lifestyle without going into any stupid money-pits like boats or sportscars or mansions, and then every year the remainder of your 4% rule budget (probably a couple hundred K...) can go to charities of your choosing. You could do the EA thing and save a bunch of lives in developing countries, be a substantial benefactor of local arts organizations, and still find yourself with some leftover to throw at whatever other charitable causes might come up in your community from year to year. If you don't want the hassle of being known as a rich person, you can just donate anonymously.

I'd think that deciding what charities to support would be a relatively fun and fulfilling project.

Ron Scott

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #108 on: July 30, 2024, 02:48:31 PM »
"I will take the money, though I don't know how to spend it..."

You shouldn’t be forced to suffer. I can take it off your hands and see that it finds a good home with people who can appreciate it.

Tigerpine

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #109 on: July 30, 2024, 02:48:51 PM »
...  I can easily answer for $1M or $10M because they're within my range of understanding.  I cannot possibly answer for $100M or $1B, because that is so far beyond my own experience that I have no idea how I'd actually feel/think...

I do think that different levels of money bring different kinds of problems, and that the people most likely to get in trouble are those who suddenly change status without the knowledge/experience/guidance to handle that successfully -- particularly if you think having more money solves all your problems and thus are completely unprepared to face the "mo money" problems when they do happen....
+1

Ron Scott

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #110 on: July 30, 2024, 02:50:00 PM »
I am enjoying reading about how $1M is better than $10M. We’ve even got a few novellas in here!

Keep ‘em coming!

Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember anyone saying 1M is better, only that "more" money isn't always better than less.

Yeah, you missed it. It’s OK. We can move on now.

2sk22

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #111 on: July 30, 2024, 03:58:37 PM »
...  I can easily answer for $1M or $10M because they're within my range of understanding.  I cannot possibly answer for $100M or $1B, because that is so far beyond my own experience that I have no idea how I'd actually feel/think...

I do think that different levels of money bring different kinds of problems, and that the people most likely to get in trouble are those who suddenly change status without the knowledge/experience/guidance to handle that successfully -- particularly if you think having more money solves all your problems and thus are completely unprepared to face the "mo money" problems when they do happen....
+1

The Onion comes through with some topical news: https://www.theonion.com/billionaire-credits-millionaire-friends-with-keeping-hi-1851607361 😀

twinstudy

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #112 on: July 30, 2024, 04:05:11 PM »
"I will take the money, though I don't know how to spend it..."
Well I wouldn't spend it and I wouldn't just sit on it either. Charity. Of course my online Ethiopean Prince says he could use it all to save his country and free his father the King - perhaps The Mattress King - in which case  the world will once again be rich in Ethiopian mattresses to guitar Steve's great joy!

I can't really think of a downside to having more money if it's kept in stealth wealth mode for the most part instead of flashed about. - and for some people flashing your wealth may be an upside if seeking a certain kind of life.

For me there would be a downside: “oh, no, with this kind of money I can’t just live my normal life and give some to family and charity, this is SERIOUS money and I should do something SIGNIFICANT with it”. Cue stress about researching optimal solutions.

Our household income has tripled in the past 5 years (due to my partner and I both starting lucrative, back-ended careers that only start going in your early 30s) and our spending habits have not changed hugely nor have we had any stress about researching optimal solutions. We deal with it in different ways. My partner has just adjusted her spending linearly with income - she still saves about half her pay cheque, but she likes buying nice stuff. I on the other hand simply live as if I was still earning my old income, save for shared things (like holidays and accommodation) where I go with my partner's preference. It hasn't taken too much mental headroom at all. Keeping most of your habits constant also helps with the stealth wealth aspect, though to be frank most of our friends/colleagues are rich anyway so there's no point even being stealthy about it. For example at work no one cares if you wear an Apple watch or an expensive watch or anything in-between. So I find the mental stress to be not that great at all. I buy what I like, and there are some areas where I do spend, but there are many areas where I am just as frugal as ever, and neither option stresses me out.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2024, 04:08:38 PM by twinstudy »

mistymoney

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #113 on: July 30, 2024, 04:45:50 PM »
I think I was surprised how difficult it was to get people to think of $$ in isolation from "doing something to get it" and also as a "FIRE" stache.  It is an indicator to me how closely the value of money is associated in our minds with the things we typically do to get it. 


I'd suggest you review your communication rather than hypothesize on difficulty in getting "people to think of $$ in isolation from "doing something to get it".

If you had stated clearly in the OP  "1 or 10 million with no additional time or work invested for 10M" I don't think there would have been any such difficulty.

Without stating this explicitly - why would anyone think that 9 million was just going to magically show up into their lives and they could take it or reject it and stay at 1 million?

You were imagining a completely unreal fantasy without saying so and then pondering on the difficulty of getting people to  - what exactly? - read your mind?

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #114 on: July 30, 2024, 06:47:48 PM »
I think I was surprised how difficult it was to get people to think of $$ in isolation from "doing something to get it" and also as a "FIRE" stache.  It is an indicator to me how closely the value of money is associated in our minds with the things we typically do to get it. 


I'd suggest you review your communication rather than hypothesize on difficulty in getting "people to think of $$ in isolation from "doing something to get it".

If you had stated clearly in the OP  "1 or 10 million with no additional time or work invested for 10M" I don't think there would have been any such difficulty.

Without stating this explicitly - why would anyone think that 9 million was just going to magically show up into their lives and they could take it or reject it and stay at 1 million?

You were imagining a completely unreal fantasy without saying so and then pondering on the difficulty of getting people to  - what exactly? - read your mind?

I don't know. I thought OP was pretty clear. Even in the initial post, blue collar talked about the perspective of the money itself being the liability. Then they clarified just a few posts later that they're not talking about how trading time for money becomes a losing proposition. Instead they said they're taking about just whether more money itself is always good

I, too, was interested in how the topic of work kept coming up when it was pretty clear the focus was just on whether there are actual drawbacks of having more money.

Metalcat

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #115 on: July 31, 2024, 04:49:26 AM »
I think I was surprised how difficult it was to get people to think of $$ in isolation from "doing something to get it" and also as a "FIRE" stache.  It is an indicator to me how closely the value of money is associated in our minds with the things we typically do to get it. 


I'd suggest you review your communication rather than hypothesize on difficulty in getting "people to think of $$ in isolation from "doing something to get it".

If you had stated clearly in the OP  "1 or 10 million with no additional time or work invested for 10M" I don't think there would have been any such difficulty.

Without stating this explicitly - why would anyone think that 9 million was just going to magically show up into their lives and they could take it or reject it and stay at 1 million?

You were imagining a completely unreal fantasy without saying so and then pondering on the difficulty of getting people to  - what exactly? - read your mind?

I don't know. I thought OP was pretty clear. Even in the initial post, blue collar talked about the perspective of the money itself being the liability. Then they clarified just a few posts later that they're not talking about how trading time for money becomes a losing proposition. Instead they said they're taking about just whether more money itself is always good

I, too, was interested in how the topic of work kept coming up when it was pretty clear the focus was just on whether there are actual drawbacks of having more money.

Work keeps coming up because that's what we talk about here.

Even if it was specified that it was lottery winnings, eventually feel lks here would say something like "sure, I would prefer winning 10M instead of 1M, but if I had to work for it, that would be a different story."

He talk endlessly about the balance of working and earning. It's what we do here.

Ron Scott

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #116 on: July 31, 2024, 08:29:32 AM »
It’s official.

spartana

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #117 on: July 31, 2024, 08:42:12 AM »
I think I was surprised how difficult it was to get people to think of $$ in isolation from "doing something to get it" and also as a "FIRE" stache.  It is an indicator to me how closely the value of money is associated in our minds with the things we typically do to get it. 


I'd suggest you review your communication rather than hypothesize on difficulty in getting "people to think of $$ in isolation from "doing something to get it".

If you had stated clearly in the OP  "1 or 10 million with no additional time or work invested for 10M" I don't think there would have been any such difficulty.

Without stating this explicitly - why would anyone think that 9 million was just going to magically show up into their lives and they could take it or reject it and stay at 1 million?

You were imagining a completely unreal fantasy without saying so and then pondering on the difficulty of getting people to  - what exactly? - read your mind?

I don't know. I thought OP was pretty clear. Even in the initial post, blue collar talked about the perspective of the money itself being the liability. Then they clarified just a few posts later that they're not talking about how trading time for money becomes a losing proposition. Instead they said they're taking about just whether more money itself is always good

I, too, was interested in how the topic of work kept coming up when it was pretty clear the focus was just on whether there are actual drawbacks of having more money.
I also thought the OP was pretty clear. My first response was what the difference for me personally would be (none) and then I tried think of reasons in general where having more money would be bad. Couldn't think of too many - family/friends wanting handouts, sugar babies wanting to be your bf/gf, kidnappings, robbery, paying more taxes for things you detest,  social dynamics amongst peers, etc - all of which could be avoided if you practice stealth wealth. Well except for taxes because the IRS can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And they absolutely will not stop... ever, until you pay!

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #118 on: July 31, 2024, 08:59:34 AM »
I think I was surprised how difficult it was to get people to think of $$ in isolation from "doing something to get it" and also as a "FIRE" stache.  It is an indicator to me how closely the value of money is associated in our minds with the things we typically do to get it. 


I'd suggest you review your communication rather than hypothesize on difficulty in getting "people to think of $$ in isolation from "doing something to get it".

If you had stated clearly in the OP  "1 or 10 million with no additional time or work invested for 10M" I don't think there would have been any such difficulty.

Without stating this explicitly - why would anyone think that 9 million was just going to magically show up into their lives and they could take it or reject it and stay at 1 million?

You were imagining a completely unreal fantasy without saying so and then pondering on the difficulty of getting people to  - what exactly? - read your mind?

I don't know. I thought OP was pretty clear. Even in the initial post, blue collar talked about the perspective of the money itself being the liability. Then they clarified just a few posts later that they're not talking about how trading time for money becomes a losing proposition. Instead they said they're taking about just whether more money itself is always good

I, too, was interested in how the topic of work kept coming up when it was pretty clear the focus was just on whether there are actual drawbacks of having more money.

Work keeps coming up because that's what we talk about here.

Even if it was specified that it was lottery winnings, eventually feel lks here would say something like "sure, I would prefer winning 10M instead of 1M, but if I had to work for it, that would be a different story."

He talk endlessly about the balance of working and earning. It's what we do here.

That's fair. It is definitely to be expected on our forum.

I should have said that I found the concept of innate drawbacks on money to be more interesting for this thread. I am all about talking about the time value of money and benefits of not trading more of you're time for money than you need to.

The other part is a less talked about perspective. I've still not decided where I fall in the hypothetical you are given 10 million / 100 million in a bank account with total possibility of stealth wealth - how significant are the drawbacks.

Personally I'm kind of in that situation now with a car. Our cars are older - approaching 300k and beginning to develop some not cosmetic problems. We are more than capable of buying a new car and as has been discussed on here, there are definitely situations where buying a new car to drive forever is not a ridiculous financial decision. That said, there are drawbacks of having a new car I haven't had to deal with. I don't really want to care about it getting dinged up because it's actually nice rather than a beater for example. I feel like newer would be more stressful. Overall, it's an interesting concept to me.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #119 on: July 31, 2024, 09:03:19 AM »
I think I was surprised how difficult it was to get people to think of $$ in isolation from "doing something to get it" and also as a "FIRE" stache.  It is an indicator to me how closely the value of money is associated in our minds with the things we typically do to get it. 


I'd suggest you review your communication rather than hypothesize on difficulty in getting "people to think of $$ in isolation from "doing something to get it".

If you had stated clearly in the OP  "1 or 10 million with no additional time or work invested for 10M" I don't think there would have been any such difficulty.

Without stating this explicitly - why would anyone think that 9 million was just going to magically show up into their lives and they could take it or reject it and stay at 1 million?

You were imagining a completely unreal fantasy without saying so and then pondering on the difficulty of getting people to  - what exactly? - read your mind?

I don't know. I thought OP was pretty clear. Even in the initial post, blue collar talked about the perspective of the money itself being the liability. Then they clarified just a few posts later that they're not talking about how trading time for money becomes a losing proposition. Instead they said they're taking about just whether more money itself is always good

I, too, was interested in how the topic of work kept coming up when it was pretty clear the focus was just on whether there are actual drawbacks of having more money.
I also thought the OP was pretty clear. My first response was what the difference for me personally would be (none) and then I tried think of reasons in general where having more money would be bad. Couldn't think of too many - family/friends wanting handouts, sugar babies wanting to be your bf/gf, kidnappings, robbery, paying more taxes for things you detest,  social dynamics amongst peers, etc - all of which could be avoided if you practice stealth wealth. Well except for taxes because the IRS can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And they absolutely will not stop... ever, until you pay!

Thanks. I was really surprised by the post, which is why I had to look back and make sure I hadn't read something in there that wasn't actually there.

I agree that I think I could practice stealth wealth reasonably well, and I certainly wouldn't turn down 10 or even 100 million dollars if it was totally anonymous, but as i mentioned above, I still do think about the consequences of it with interest.

Loren Ver

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #120 on: July 31, 2024, 09:18:28 AM »
If past performance is any indication of future performance and the money just showed up, then it probably wouldn't be around for long either way.  And it certainly wouldn't go towards the household spending.  I got a small inheritance a few years ago, so I know how windfalls go for me.

We have what we need, so if 10 million popped over, I'd do with it what I already do with our excess, find it a good home.  It would take a bit more work and diligence, but I'm sure I could find a good foundation that would invest it and use the proceeds to do good stuff every year.  Then I'd be back to my usual retired self. 

If 1 million additional funds popped over, I might be better able to better manage that myself for investment and donations yearly in a DAF. 

So for long term giving, 10 million is better, because 4% of 10 million just goes to help more, that's how math works.  But it could make it harder to find the appropriate place or places to send the money for growth long term.  Vetting can be hard and I know I wont live for ever.  But I also intend it to have no impact on my personal spending because other cash windfalls in my life haven't gone into the personal budget. 

If the money was for personal use only, not giving away, then 1 million.  We already live on less than that when you take out the giving.  So I could be living on more without working longer and chose not to, someone asking the question doesn't change this. 

Loren

spartana

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #121 on: July 31, 2024, 12:50:01 PM »
I think I was surprised how difficult it was to get people to think of $$ in isolation from "doing something to get it" and also as a "FIRE" stache.  It is an indicator to me how closely the value of money is associated in our minds with the things we typically do to get it. 


I'd suggest you review your communication rather than hypothesize on difficulty in getting "people to think of $$ in isolation from "doing something to get it".

If you had stated clearly in the OP  "1 or 10 million with no additional time or work invested for 10M" I don't think there would have been any such difficulty.

Without stating this explicitly - why would anyone think that 9 million was just going to magically show up into their lives and they could take it or reject it and stay at 1 million?

You were imagining a completely unreal fantasy without saying so and then pondering on the difficulty of getting people to  - what exactly? - read your mind?

I don't know. I thought OP was pretty clear. Even in the initial post, blue collar talked about the perspective of the money itself being the liability. Then they clarified just a few posts later that they're not talking about how trading time for money becomes a losing proposition. Instead they said they're taking about just whether more money itself is always good

I, too, was interested in how the topic of work kept coming up when it was pretty clear the focus was just on whether there are actual drawbacks of having more money.
I also thought the OP was pretty clear. My first response was what the difference for me personally would be (none) and then I tried think of reasons in general where having more money would be bad. Couldn't think of too many - family/friends wanting handouts, sugar babies wanting to be your bf/gf, kidnappings, robbery, paying more taxes for things you detest,  social dynamics amongst peers, etc - all of which could be avoided if you practice stealth wealth. Well except for taxes because the IRS can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And they absolutely will not stop... ever, until you pay!

Thanks. I was really surprised by the post, which is why I had to look back and make sure I hadn't read something in there that wasn't actually there.

I agree that I think I could practice stealth wealth reasonably well, and I certainly wouldn't turn down 10 or even 100 million dollars if it was totally anonymous, but as i mentioned above, I still do think about the consequences of it with interest.
I've been trying to think of other things where that much extra money would be worse then $1 million but not too many I can think of. The "I have so much money I can buy and do all the things" is an issue from "most" environmental perspective but not always. Being able to afford an electric car or upgrading your home to be more environmentally friendly may be a positive use of extra money compared to flying all over the world and buying all the blood diamonds one can.

big_owl

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #122 on: July 31, 2024, 01:18:12 PM »
I've been in both of these situations.  There's a huge difference between 10M and 1M.  You really aren't full on rich at 1M in stocks.  Your SWR is a paltry 40k.  At 10M your SWR is 400K and can sustain a massive lifestyle.  Spend 5% of your NW on a car at 1M NW...you get a mid-range pickup truck.  Spend 5% at 10M and for the same ratio you get a decked out Ferrari 812 Superfast where the wheel upgrade option alone cost more than an entire Corvette.  Not even in the same stratosphere and sums up the difference between the two. 

Also, absent inheretence, the self made person with 10M also has a massive salary that can fund all sorts of shit even ignoring the investments. 

Metalcat

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #123 on: July 31, 2024, 04:17:55 PM »
I think I was surprised how difficult it was to get people to think of $$ in isolation from "doing something to get it" and also as a "FIRE" stache.  It is an indicator to me how closely the value of money is associated in our minds with the things we typically do to get it. 


I'd suggest you review your communication rather than hypothesize on difficulty in getting "people to think of $$ in isolation from "doing something to get it".

If you had stated clearly in the OP  "1 or 10 million with no additional time or work invested for 10M" I don't think there would have been any such difficulty.

Without stating this explicitly - why would anyone think that 9 million was just going to magically show up into their lives and they could take it or reject it and stay at 1 million?

You were imagining a completely unreal fantasy without saying so and then pondering on the difficulty of getting people to  - what exactly? - read your mind?

I don't know. I thought OP was pretty clear. Even in the initial post, blue collar talked about the perspective of the money itself being the liability. Then they clarified just a few posts later that they're not talking about how trading time for money becomes a losing proposition. Instead they said they're taking about just whether more money itself is always good

I, too, was interested in how the topic of work kept coming up when it was pretty clear the focus was just on whether there are actual drawbacks of having more money.
I also thought the OP was pretty clear. My first response was what the difference for me personally would be (none) and then I tried think of reasons in general where having more money would be bad. Couldn't think of too many - family/friends wanting handouts, sugar babies wanting to be your bf/gf, kidnappings, robbery, paying more taxes for things you detest,  social dynamics amongst peers, etc - all of which could be avoided if you practice stealth wealth. Well except for taxes because the IRS can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And they absolutely will not stop... ever, until you pay!

Thanks. I was really surprised by the post, which is why I had to look back and make sure I hadn't read something in there that wasn't actually there.

I agree that I think I could practice stealth wealth reasonably well, and I certainly wouldn't turn down 10 or even 100 million dollars if it was totally anonymous, but as i mentioned above, I still do think about the consequences of it with interest.

10M is my absolute personal max. I would turn down 100M, no question.

I've given my max NW A LOT of thought because I had tough decisions to make on this front a few years ago. I simply do not want to exist in that wealth category.

twinstudy

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #124 on: July 31, 2024, 04:22:11 PM »
To me, $100m wouldn't improve my life any bit over $10m, so I wouldn't be particularly in favour of getting the larger amount. I can't see any downsides though - I could invest it in an index fund or in property all the same, and everything would just scale up by 10.

For me the difference is that money, if not earned, means nothing to me. And whereas $10m is an amount that (with compounding) can very much be earned as a FIRE stash, $100m is literally impossible to do off wages over a lifetime, unless you're an NBA player or Hollywood actor. And I wouldn't want to have any sort of FIRE existence where I was relying on others' largesse, e.g. an inheritance or some massive donation, to achieve an early retirement. I don't value achievements if I haven't earned them.

Tasse

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #125 on: July 31, 2024, 04:35:41 PM »
10M is my absolute personal max. I would turn down 100M, no question.

I've given my max NW A LOT of thought because I had tough decisions to make on this front a few years ago. I simply do not want to exist in that wealth category.

Why not accept it and donate it? Can you not be anonymous at that level?

I realize this hypothetical doesn't include where the money is coming FROM, which might be part of the calculus.

Metalcat

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #126 on: July 31, 2024, 05:14:01 PM »
10M is my absolute personal max. I would turn down 100M, no question.

I've given my max NW A LOT of thought because I had tough decisions to make on this front a few years ago. I simply do not want to exist in that wealth category.

Why not accept it and donate it? Can you not be anonymous at that level?

I realize this hypothetical doesn't include where the money is coming FROM, which might be part of the calculus.

I've spent many years brokering philanthropy, it's actually a lot of work to do effectively.

dividendman

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #127 on: July 31, 2024, 05:41:42 PM »
10M is my absolute personal max. I would turn down 100M, no question.

I've given my max NW A LOT of thought because I had tough decisions to make on this front a few years ago. I simply do not want to exist in that wealth category.

Why not accept it and donate it? Can you not be anonymous at that level?

I realize this hypothetical doesn't include where the money is coming FROM, which might be part of the calculus.

I've spent many years brokering philanthropy, it's actually a lot of work to do effectively.

I just give it all to givewell and let them figure it out: https://secure.givewell.org/, seems easy to give a lot.

spartana

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #128 on: July 31, 2024, 05:44:22 PM »
To me, $100m wouldn't improve my life any bit over $10m, so I wouldn't be particularly in favour of getting the larger amount. I can't see any downsides though - I could invest it in an index fund or in property all the same, and everything would just scale up by 10.

For me the difference is that money, if not earned, means nothing to me. And whereas $10m is an amount that (with compounding) can very much be earned as a FIRE stash, $100m is literally impossible to do off wages over a lifetime, unless you're an NBA player or Hollywood actor. And I wouldn't want to have any sort of FIRE existence where I was relying on others' largesse, e.g. an inheritance or some massive donation, to achieve an early retirement. I don't value achievements if I haven't earned them.
Perhaps for high income earners who work and invest a large sum over many years but for the average working stiff earning a median income in the US and trying to save 50% you're very unlikely to reach $10 million in time to be an "early" retiree. And very unlikely to reach that in your lifetime.

Maybe one of the downsides of having too much money is losing touch with the reality of the average person. That and greed and hedonistic adaptation.

twinstudy

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #129 on: July 31, 2024, 05:54:54 PM »
I never said anything about the average working person, did I? I doubt the average working stiff, to use your words, could even get to $3m over a lifetime, though it depends on the degree to which said stiff is imbued with superhuman frugality.

Metalcat

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #130 on: July 31, 2024, 06:06:29 PM »
10M is my absolute personal max. I would turn down 100M, no question.

I've given my max NW A LOT of thought because I had tough decisions to make on this front a few years ago. I simply do not want to exist in that wealth category.

Why not accept it and donate it? Can you not be anonymous at that level?

I realize this hypothetical doesn't include where the money is coming FROM, which might be part of the calculus.

I've spent many years brokering philanthropy, it's actually a lot of work to do effectively.

I just give it all to givewell and let them figure it out: https://secure.givewell.org/, seems easy to give a lot.

Sure, if you're comfortable with another broker handling your charitable giving. I've worked in the industry long enough to be a little too aware of the darker side of non-profits, so I'm a little more picky about how I move money into that space.

There's a lot of politics too. The book Dark Money covers this well.

Redherring

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #131 on: July 31, 2024, 06:10:50 PM »
I've been in both of these situations.  There's a huge difference between 10M and 1M.  You really aren't full on rich at 1M in stocks.  Your SWR is a paltry 40k.  At 10M your SWR is 400K and can sustain a massive lifestyle.  Spend 5% of your NW on a car at 1M NW...you get a mid-range pickup truck.  Spend 5% at 10M and for the same ratio you get a decked out Ferrari 812 Superfast where the wheel upgrade option alone cost more than an entire Corvette.  Not even in the same stratosphere and sums up the difference between the two. 

Also, absent inheretence, the self made person with 10M also has a massive salary that can fund all sorts of shit even ignoring the investments.

This. 10M is next level shit, for us this is FI vs not, with a safety margin that translates into 50pct market drops not affecting FI status. It is 200k home vs 1.5M home, it is having cheap hobbies and vacations vs affording expedition style treks, diving in Maldives, African safaris, etc, if that floats your boat
Now, is the time and effort between 1M and 10 M worth it? In our case, yes. 10 years. But not 10 years in misery, think 10 years of great experiences, vacations and rather fulfilling jobs.
Would I pursue 20, or 30M? No. We likely get there one day with a low SWR but not worth another 10 years for us before FIRE
« Last Edit: July 31, 2024, 06:12:22 PM by Redherring »

spartana

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #132 on: July 31, 2024, 10:55:56 PM »
I never said anything about the average working person, did I? I doubt the average working stiff, to use your words, could even get to $3m over a lifetime, though it depends on the degree to which said stiff is imbued with superhuman frugality.
True but you didn't say high earning either so I (wrongly) assumed you were talking about the average person. Lots of average earning people DO FIRE on a relatively small amount. It may take them longer do get to FI and mean that they have to make trade offs that a high earner doesn't but doesn't mean they can't get there.

NorthernIkigai

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #133 on: August 01, 2024, 01:17:08 AM »
"I will take the money, though I don't know how to spend it..."
Well I wouldn't spend it and I wouldn't just sit on it either. Charity. Of course my online Ethiopean Prince says he could use it all to save his country and free his father the King - perhaps The Mattress King - in which case  the world will once again be rich in Ethiopian mattresses to guitar Steve's great joy!

I can't really think of a downside to having more money if it's kept in stealth wealth mode for the most part instead of flashed about. - and for some people flashing your wealth may be an upside if seeking a certain kind of life.

For me there would be a downside: “oh, no, with this kind of money I can’t just live my normal life and give some to family and charity, this is SERIOUS money and I should do something SIGNIFICANT with it”. Cue stress about researching optimal solutions.

Our household income has tripled in the past 5 years (due to my partner and I both starting lucrative, back-ended careers that only start going in your early 30s) and our spending habits have not changed hugely nor have we had any stress about researching optimal solutions. We deal with it in different ways. My partner has just adjusted her spending linearly with income - she still saves about half her pay cheque, but she likes buying nice stuff. I on the other hand simply live as if I was still earning my old income, save for shared things (like holidays and accommodation) where I go with my partner's preference. It hasn't taken too much mental headroom at all. Keeping most of your habits constant also helps with the stealth wealth aspect, though to be frank most of our friends/colleagues are rich anyway so there's no point even being stealthy about it. For example at work no one cares if you wear an Apple watch or an expensive watch or anything in-between. So I find the mental stress to be not that great at all. I buy what I like, and there are some areas where I do spend, but there are many areas where I am just as frugal as ever, and neither option stresses me out.

But we're not talking income here, we're talking wealth. Sure, a big jump in income without a lot of spending will eventually lead to a big jump in wealth, but normally it takes a lot longer than 5 years for it to start having a noticeable effect.

I wouldn't have mental stress from having a higher household income, and haven't felt that in past such circumstances. Well, I guess except for when I first started earning money, had a nice life, and then started wondering what to do with the piled-up cash. I solved that with learning about investing.

It's the huge gap between "anything I or anyone close to me might need" and 10M that is the problem for me. Which means the problem would be even larger if it were 100M. Earning 3 times more than we do now would be interesting but not a problem, especially since we live in a place with high (and highly progressive) taxation.

Turtle

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #134 on: August 01, 2024, 08:04:33 AM »
$10 MM is better.  But not ten times better.

Succinct and to the point.

This thought exercise reminds me of graphs in college economics.  Time versus money is going to have a different “sweet spot” for different people, and also depend greatly on location/cost of living. 

$10MM where I currently live would be a crazy large amount of money.  $10MM in some other parts of the country/world would buy me a similarly sized and situated house/cover property tax & insurance and leave me at approximately the same standard of living leftover.  And in some parts of the world it wouldn’t even be able to buy the same size of house.


GuitarStv

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #135 on: August 01, 2024, 08:46:03 AM »
It's hard for me to conceptualize 100 million dollars.  Not sure exactly what I'd do with it . . . probably would end up splitting a lot of it out to family/friends and donating a good chunk to some charities I support.  There would be a strong temptation to buy a large chunk of land and try to set up an Epicurean commune as well.

Dicey

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #136 on: August 01, 2024, 07:41:06 PM »
Two counter-points I would raise to that, although I also think generally @Metalcat raises good points:

1. You can earn lots of money and then put it into philanthropy, if you so desire. Earning lots doesn't prevent you from giving lots.

2. No one needs to know how much wealth you have. You can drive the same car (or buy a Ferrari but drive another car to work, if you even drive to work at all - I walk to work so no one knows what car I drive) and you can choose to live in the same house even if you have multiple other properties. People complaining about others knowing that they're rich, etc, almost always are the ones, themselves, telling others how rich they are. None of my colleagues knows what my net worth is.


You could live in this modest old house for decades, drive a battered old Cadillac, and eat McDonald's for breakfast despite having a few pennies saved (12 figures and counting).

Lol, that "modest" house is 6,570 sf.

Ron Scott

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #137 on: August 02, 2024, 09:48:51 AM »
I think Buffet is great.

He is successful, taken with the thrill of running big business, has value as his North Star, and seems down to earth.

mistymoney

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #138 on: August 02, 2024, 09:09:36 PM »
To me, $100m wouldn't improve my life any bit over $10m, so I wouldn't be particularly in favour of getting the larger amount. I can't see any downsides though - I could invest it in an index fund or in property all the same, and everything would just scale up by 10.

For me the difference is that money, if not earned, means nothing to me. And whereas $10m is an amount that (with compounding) can very much be earned as a FIRE stash, $100m is literally impossible to do off wages over a lifetime, unless you're an NBA player or Hollywood actor. And I wouldn't want to have any sort of FIRE existence where I was relying on others' largesse, e.g. an inheritance or some massive donation, to achieve an early retirement. I don't value achievements if I haven't earned them.
Perhaps for high income earners who work and invest a large sum over many years but for the average working stiff earning a median income in the US and trying to save 50% you're very unlikely to reach $10 million in time to be an "early" retiree. And very unlikely to reach that in your lifetime.

Maybe one of the downsides of having too much money is losing touch with the reality of the average person. That and greed and hedonistic adaptation.

OR!

 you just need stay retired a long time while it builds up??

ca-rn

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #139 on: August 02, 2024, 10:44:58 PM »
$10 million doesn’t go as far as it used to, especially in NYC, SF or SJ.

4% withdrawal from $10M is $400k/year.

I know plenty of people living very good lives in both NYC and SF who will never make $400k/year in their entire careers.

The Joneses in these cities are richer, and trying to keep up with them is potentially more ruinous than in a place where especially high incomes are rarer. But the fundamental cost of living is not even remotely close to 10x that of a modest locale where Mustachians happily live on $40k/year.


$10 million in San Jose would take maybe $2.5 million for a 2500 sq ft home. Frugally using a 3.5% SWR gets you $262k/yr.  State and fed taxes could easily be 20%, leaving you $210k.  Throw in some day care, property tax, Bay Area prices for food, gas, etc and suddenly you are not feeling so rich, right?

Would you want to live in San Jose if you had 10 million dollars though?

I visited while living in SF and wasn't impressed...

Personally, 10 million isn't better (for a single person w/o kids) if they're FIRE "minded" and more in the more money=more problems column. 

1 million is good but maybe 2 million is better/stable for living in the US (healthcare)?  Definitely enough to afford a varied interesting life w/good healthcare and opportunities to be generous without being extravagant. 








jeroly

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #140 on: August 03, 2024, 06:54:16 PM »
$10 million doesn’t go as far as it used to, especially in NYC, SF or SJ.

4% withdrawal from $10M is $400k/year.

I know plenty of people living very good lives in both NYC and SF who will never make $400k/year in their entire careers.

The Joneses in these cities are richer, and trying to keep up with them is potentially more ruinous than in a place where especially high incomes are rarer. But the fundamental cost of living is not even remotely close to 10x that of a modest locale where Mustachians happily live on $40k/year.


$10 million in San Jose would take maybe $2.5 million for a 2500 sq ft home. Frugally using a 3.5% SWR gets you $262k/yr.  State and fed taxes could easily be 20%, leaving you $210k.  Throw in some day care, property tax, Bay Area prices for food, gas, etc and suddenly you are not feeling so rich, right?

Would you want to live in San Jose if you had 10 million dollars though?

I visited while living in SF and wasn't impressed...

Personally, 10 million isn't better (for a single person w/o kids) if they're FIRE "minded" and more in the more money=more problems column. 

1 million is good but maybe 2 million is better/stable for living in the US (healthcare)?  Definitely enough to afford a varied interesting life w/good healthcare and opportunities to be generous without being extravagant.
There are parts of San Jose (e.g. the Willow Glen neighborhood) that are pretty nice (you might need more than $10 million to live there though lol).  There are other parts that are suburban hell.

Dicey

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #141 on: August 03, 2024, 07:46:00 PM »
This thread is starting to make me want $10M. Oh, wait, I've been FIRE for twelve years now. Nevermind.

Gremlin

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #142 on: August 06, 2024, 12:58:39 AM »

Yeah, I think you're right. What's the most wealth a person can accrue completely stealthily?

I don't think there's necessarily a limit to what you can accrue stealthily.  The issue comes with conspicuous consumption.  My own lived experience is that FIRE itself is a conspicuous form of consumption, even if it's not an excessively materialistic form of consumption.  When you're not working at 40, that's not stealthy.

Assume two earners both with high-paying but 'normal' jobs that won't generate any news or unusual interest from strangers. So say a law partner/McKinsey partner/surgeon type career. Two people on $1.0-$1.5m a year combined can save $500k-$750k a year after tax. Compounded over a 15 year-period of peak earnings and you'd get $7.5m-$11 mil without compounding, maybe $15m-$30 mil with investments and compounding. But even then, people at that success level start doing 'newsworthy' things like joining boards and foundations, setting up charitable causes in their own name, and otherwise having a high profile, all of which wrecks the stealth part.

'Newsworthy' is just anything that doesn't fit the neighbourhood stereotype norm.  If you FIRE, it's probably not going to be talked about in a major newspaper in the same way that being appointed to a Board will be, but it's definitely going to be talked about within very wide social circles and you'll have no control over it.  If you want stealth, don't FIRE.   

I didn't fully appreciate this when I pulled the trigger on FIRE, but it's definitely a thing.  Best not to care that it's a thing.

spartana

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #143 on: August 06, 2024, 09:14:13 AM »

Yeah, I think you're right. What's the most wealth a person can accrue completely stealthily?

I don't think there's necessarily a limit to what you can accrue stealthily.  The issue comes with conspicuous consumption.  My own lived experience is that FIRE itself is a conspicuous form of consumption, even if it's not an excessively materialistic form of consumption.  When you're not working at 40, that's not stealthy.

Assume two earners both with high-paying but 'normal' jobs that won't generate any news or unusual interest from strangers. So say a law partner/McKinsey partner/surgeon type career. Two people on $1.0-$1.5m a year combined can save $500k-$750k a year after tax. Compounded over a 15 year-period of peak earnings and you'd get $7.5m-$11 mil without compounding, maybe $15m-$30 mil with investments and compounding. But even then, people at that success level start doing 'newsworthy' things like joining boards and foundations, setting up charitable causes in their own name, and otherwise having a high profile, all of which wrecks the stealth part.

'Newsworthy' is just anything that doesn't fit the neighbourhood stereotype norm.  If you FIRE, it's probably not going to be talked about in a major newspaper in the same way that being appointed to a Board will be, but it's definitely going to be talked about within very wide social circles and you'll have no control over it.  If you want stealth, don't FIRE.   

I didn't fully appreciate this when I pulled the trigger on FIRE, but it's definitely a thing.  Best not to care that it's a thing.
We talked about this in another thread (FIRE young and not working being a sign of wealth in and of itself even if your life isn't flashy) and I've seen it looked at both as being wealthy and as being poor and unemployed. "Poor Spartana can't find a job and must not have much money otherwise she'd have nicer stuff." ;-).

jeroly

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #144 on: August 06, 2024, 11:09:23 AM »

Yeah, I think you're right. What's the most wealth a person can accrue completely stealthily?

I don't think there's necessarily a limit to what you can accrue stealthily.  The issue comes with conspicuous consumption.  My own lived experience is that FIRE itself is a conspicuous form of consumption, even if it's not an excessively materialistic form of consumption.  When you're not working at 40, that's not stealthy.
I read in the paper on occasion about someone who, unbeknownst to the world, had saved up enough to be noteworthy when donated to some local charity.  The biggest amount I remember reading about is around $8 million. 

I would think, therefore, that if one had professionals working on keeping your money anonymous and they were halfway decent about their jobs, you could stealth wealth up to perhaps $20-25 million.  Once you get up to $30 million you start getting hit up by UHNW cold callers and it might be harder to keep it from the neighbors.

Of course you've got to keep a stealth wealth lifestyle as well.  If there's a photo of you on someone's yacht in St. Tropez in some gossip rag, someone's gonna notice.

406MtnFire

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #145 on: August 06, 2024, 12:03:54 PM »
Many people here save $1M by age 35. Which should be 2M at 45, 4M at 55, 8M at 65, 16M at 75. I'd almost bet $1 they grow their wealth faster than I listed because many will work in some enjoyable fashion and continue to add to the stash.

If you can save $1M before age 45, you can save 2M and likely 10M.

Metalcat

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #146 on: August 06, 2024, 12:06:05 PM »

Yeah, I think you're right. What's the most wealth a person can accrue completely stealthily?

I don't think there's necessarily a limit to what you can accrue stealthily.  The issue comes with conspicuous consumption.  My own lived experience is that FIRE itself is a conspicuous form of consumption, even if it's not an excessively materialistic form of consumption.  When you're not working at 40, that's not stealthy.
I read in the paper on occasion about someone who, unbeknownst to the world, had saved up enough to be noteworthy when donated to some local charity.  The biggest amount I remember reading about is around $8 million. 

I would think, therefore, that if one had professionals working on keeping your money anonymous and they were halfway decent about their jobs, you could stealth wealth up to perhaps $20-25 million.  Once you get up to $30 million you start getting hit up by UHNW cold callers and it might be harder to keep it from the neighbors.

Of course you've got to keep a stealth wealth lifestyle as well.  If there's a photo of you on someone's yacht in St. Tropez in some gossip rag, someone's gonna notice.

I mentioned earlier that wealth of a certain amount is hard to hide and someone else jumped to newsworthy. But there's a huge realm between stealth and literally being in the news for your wealth.

For example, a friend of mine owns a large office building where one of his medical practices leases space. Everyone in the industry knows he owns multiple practices and knows he owns this building. He's extremely subtle about spending, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist for virtually everyone who knows him to be able to roughly estimate his NW.

If people know your job or some major assets you own, they can piece together pretty quickly when you're trying to hide a substantial NW, and that info gets around pretty quickly, even if it isn't accurate. And I know from experience that the rumour mill tends to exaggerate NW numbers, so if anyone figures out anything, it tends to spread and take on a life of its own.

But yeah, if you end up in the literal newspaper for your wealth, then it's game over, everyone knows.

The owner at one of my current clinics is a super chill, down to earth guy who would love to have stealth wealth, but because he's a tech guy whose first startup is now worth over a billion, he can't talk to anyone without them thinking he's filthy rich.

Up to 10M, sure, it's not that hard to stealth it, depending on how quickly you earn it. But above that it becomes difficult to even amass that kind of wealth without doing shit that people will notice and talk about.

jeroly

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #147 on: August 06, 2024, 01:56:11 PM »

Yeah, I think you're right. What's the most wealth a person can accrue completely stealthily?

I don't think there's necessarily a limit to what you can accrue stealthily.  The issue comes with conspicuous consumption.  My own lived experience is that FIRE itself is a conspicuous form of consumption, even if it's not an excessively materialistic form of consumption.  When you're not working at 40, that's not stealthy.
I read in the paper on occasion about someone who, unbeknownst to the world, had saved up enough to be noteworthy when donated to some local charity.  The biggest amount I remember reading about is around $8 million. 

I would think, therefore, that if one had professionals working on keeping your money anonymous and they were halfway decent about their jobs, you could stealth wealth up to perhaps $20-25 million.  Once you get up to $30 million you start getting hit up by UHNW cold callers and it might be harder to keep it from the neighbors.

Of course you've got to keep a stealth wealth lifestyle as well.  If there's a photo of you on someone's yacht in St. Tropez in some gossip rag, someone's gonna notice.

I mentioned earlier that wealth of a certain amount is hard to hide and someone else jumped to newsworthy. But there's a huge realm between stealth and literally being in the news for your wealth.

For example, a friend of mine owns a large office building where one of his medical practices leases space. Everyone in the industry knows he owns multiple practices and knows he owns this building. He's extremely subtle about spending, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist for virtually everyone who knows him to be able to roughly estimate his NW.

If people know your job or some major assets you own, they can piece together pretty quickly when you're trying to hide a substantial NW, and that info gets around pretty quickly, even if it isn't accurate. And I know from experience that the rumour mill tends to exaggerate NW numbers, so if anyone figures out anything, it tends to spread and take on a life of its own.

But yeah, if you end up in the literal newspaper for your wealth, then it's game over, everyone knows.

The owner at one of my current clinics is a super chill, down to earth guy who would love to have stealth wealth, but because he's a tech guy whose first startup is now worth over a billion, he can't talk to anyone without them thinking he's filthy rich.

Up to 10M, sure, it's not that hard to stealth it, depending on how quickly you earn it. But above that it becomes difficult to even amass that kind of wealth without doing shit that people will notice and talk about.
I agree that if your wealth is through identifiable properties or companies it is difficult to hide, but if you've built it up in brokerage accounts, treasuries, etc., and maybe stored chunks of it in trusts, donor advised funds, insurance policies, etc., there's not a lot of ways people can find out unless you want them to.

Metalcat

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #148 on: August 06, 2024, 03:40:54 PM »

Yeah, I think you're right. What's the most wealth a person can accrue completely stealthily?

I don't think there's necessarily a limit to what you can accrue stealthily.  The issue comes with conspicuous consumption.  My own lived experience is that FIRE itself is a conspicuous form of consumption, even if it's not an excessively materialistic form of consumption.  When you're not working at 40, that's not stealthy.
I read in the paper on occasion about someone who, unbeknownst to the world, had saved up enough to be noteworthy when donated to some local charity.  The biggest amount I remember reading about is around $8 million. 

I would think, therefore, that if one had professionals working on keeping your money anonymous and they were halfway decent about their jobs, you could stealth wealth up to perhaps $20-25 million.  Once you get up to $30 million you start getting hit up by UHNW cold callers and it might be harder to keep it from the neighbors.

Of course you've got to keep a stealth wealth lifestyle as well.  If there's a photo of you on someone's yacht in St. Tropez in some gossip rag, someone's gonna notice.

I mentioned earlier that wealth of a certain amount is hard to hide and someone else jumped to newsworthy. But there's a huge realm between stealth and literally being in the news for your wealth.

For example, a friend of mine owns a large office building where one of his medical practices leases space. Everyone in the industry knows he owns multiple practices and knows he owns this building. He's extremely subtle about spending, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist for virtually everyone who knows him to be able to roughly estimate his NW.

If people know your job or some major assets you own, they can piece together pretty quickly when you're trying to hide a substantial NW, and that info gets around pretty quickly, even if it isn't accurate. And I know from experience that the rumour mill tends to exaggerate NW numbers, so if anyone figures out anything, it tends to spread and take on a life of its own.

But yeah, if you end up in the literal newspaper for your wealth, then it's game over, everyone knows.

The owner at one of my current clinics is a super chill, down to earth guy who would love to have stealth wealth, but because he's a tech guy whose first startup is now worth over a billion, he can't talk to anyone without them thinking he's filthy rich.

Up to 10M, sure, it's not that hard to stealth it, depending on how quickly you earn it. But above that it becomes difficult to even amass that kind of wealth without doing shit that people will notice and talk about.
I agree that if your wealth is through identifiable properties or companies it is difficult to hide, but if you've built it up in brokerage accounts, treasuries, etc., and maybe stored chunks of it in trusts, donor advised funds, insurance policies, etc., there's not a lot of ways people can find out unless you want them to.

That's kind of my point though, it can be very hard to even earn enough to get to over 10M without doing something notable to peers and colleagues. My entire point is that really profitable behaviours tend to get observed and discussed.

People are probably going to be aware if you gained all your money from employment because your job title will probably give away that you earn enough to save over 10M. If you make money off of investing in significant stuff, again, someone will likely notice that you own some significant stuff.

Up to 10M is doable with a roughly very upper middle class income and lifestyle where plenty of folks live and work similarly and don't save nearly as much, but it starts getting a lot harder with bigger numbers.

Highbeam

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Re: If 1M is good, is 10M better?
« Reply #149 on: August 08, 2024, 01:25:24 PM »
"If 1M is good, is 10M better? "

Yes. The answer is yes.