Author Topic: I want to buy an EV from China  (Read 7819 times)

FireLane

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I want to buy an EV from China
« on: February 01, 2024, 08:07:08 AM »
...but I can't, because most of them aren't for sale in the U.S. Still, this article makes them sound really appealing.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2024/01/electric-cars-cheaper-china-than-america/677290/

China has a huge diversity of EVs on the market, not just the stupid lumbering monster trucks and ultra-expensive luxury cars that are the only kinds American manufacturers make.

For example, there's the Changli Freeman, the cheapest electric car in the world. It only has a range of 27 miles and a max speed of 23 MPH, but it retails for $1,200. Even a golf cart in the U.S. costs more than that! People in China call it the "old man happy car" because it's used by elderly grandparents for short trips to visit their families or to go to the market.

There's a review of it on Jalopnik that concludes that, quirky as it is, it's a really good car for the money:

https://jalopnik.com/the-worlds-cheapest-ev-is-genuinely-good-1847048450

If that's not enough car for you, you still have some great options for around $10,000:

Quote
Take the Changan Lumin, for example. It is a sleek four-seat hatchback complete with high-tech headlights that look a bit like a pair of friendly eyes staring back at you. It’ll go about 60 mph, just enough to make it highway capable, and costs about $7,500—new. That’s a new-car price. The Wuling Mini EV is a similar car that’s even cheaper, retailing for less than $5,000; for a little more than $12,000, the technology-packed Baojun KiWi EV comes with a feature that allows it to park itself.

In the U.S., the list of not just new EVs, but any new car, starting at just over $10,000 is precisely zero cars long.

There are cool cars too, not just ultra-budget options:

Quote
If you want to know what the post-gas future looks like, the Chinese car market is as close as you can get. Whatever kind of EV you might want, chances are you can find it. There are sleek minivan-like crossovers; premium, high-status vehicles that we don’t really have a category for here in America; and ones like the Xpeng X9 and Zeeker 009, which look like spaceships for the ultra-wealthy villains in a sci-fi movie. There are electric supercars, hardcore off-road vehicles, delivery vehicles, luxury sedans, family cars.

The Chinese EV market is so big that it has room for something sorely lacking in the American EV market: fun. And I don’t just mean “fast,” as fun gets so often reduced to here; I mean actual fun. EVs are bringing more tech into cars than ever before, but the features in Chinese EVs seem downright futuristic. You can find cars with augmented-reality dashboards, massaging seats, in-car projector screens, refrigerators, and customizable emoji headlights.

One Chinese car, the Ora Punk Cat, is indeed a bit punk in the sense that it looks like a retro-futuristic take on an old Volkswagen Beetle, with a 1970s design and big LCD screens. (As if the Punk Cat wasn’t weird enough, the model has a sibling—the Ballet Cat—that is specifically targeted toward women.)

I would love to buy one of these fun little cars. An EV that could go 50 miles would easily cover 90% of my driving, and if it could go 100 miles, it would be 99%. It's insane to spend $50,000 on a car.

The profit margins probably aren't high enough to justify shipping these super-cheap EVs to the U.S., and even if they were, it'd be next to impossible to find a shop that could repair them. But I can dream.

GuitarStv

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2024, 08:40:52 AM »
For example, there's the Changli Freeman, the cheapest electric car in the world. It only has a range of 27 miles and a max speed of 23 MPH, but it retails for $1,200.

Seems pricey.

My bike has a range of about 100 miles, a max speed of around 44 mph and only cost me about 600$ (throw in another 100$ for spandex).  Also, no issues purchasing one here in North America.

:P

maizefolk

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2024, 09:00:24 AM »
China has a huge diversity of EVs on the market, not just the stupid lumbering monster trucks and ultra-expensive luxury cars that are the only kinds American manufacturers make.

I work with a guy who owns a Chevy Bolt which clearly is neither a monster truck nor a luxury car and can be had for less than $20,000 (after tax credit).

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/with-tax-credit-as-down-payment-chevy-bolt-starts-under-20000/

Chinese EVs are cheaper for at least three reasons: lower labor costs, government incentives that make it easier to register and use an EV vs an ICE which produce geater demand resulting in better economies of scale*, and, and this is probably the biggest one, are all the safety requirements for vehicles sold in the USA that add weight and cost to our cars relative to Europe or the rest of the world. Everything from backup cameras to 5 mph bumpers.

Ron Scott

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2024, 03:31:47 PM »

EliteZags

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2024, 04:27:39 PM »
For example, there's the Changli Freeman, the cheapest electric car in the world. It only has a range of 27 miles and a max speed of 23 MPH, but it retails for $1,200.

Seems pricey.

My bike has a range of about 100 miles, a max speed of around 44 mph and only cost me about 600$ (throw in another 100$ for spandex).  Also, no issues purchasing one here in North America.

:P

how's the bike been with carrying 2 passengers plus cargo in pouring rain

GuitarStv

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2024, 04:32:25 PM »
For example, there's the Changli Freeman, the cheapest electric car in the world. It only has a range of 27 miles and a max speed of 23 MPH, but it retails for $1,200.

Seems pricey.

My bike has a range of about 100 miles, a max speed of around 44 mph and only cost me about 600$ (throw in another 100$ for spandex).  Also, no issues purchasing one here in North America.

:P

how's the bike been with carrying 2 passengers plus cargo in pouring rain

Under 90lbs child passenger with a load of groceries is no problem in the trailer.  My wife has her own bike, and rain isn't a problem with fenders and a good jacket.

Brystheguy

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2024, 09:27:09 PM »
For example, there's the Changli Freeman, the cheapest electric car in the world. It only has a range of 27 miles and a max speed of 23 MPH, but it retails for $1,200.

Seems pricey.

My bike has a range of about 100 miles, a max speed of around 44 mph and only cost me about 600$ (throw in another 100$ for spandex).  Also, no issues purchasing one here in North America.

:P

Which bike goes 44 mph?

spartana

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2024, 09:49:20 PM »
Hmmm... I just went down the used car wormhole and there were tons of small newer low mileage EVs for sale for $5k - $10k. Leafs, Fiat Pops, Ford Focus hatchbacks, Kia souls, Chevy Sparks, Hyundai Nexxos, VW Golf's, BMW i3, some kind of tiny Mitsubishi, Smart cars,  etc etc plus the more expensive Bolts, Konas, and the like. Lots more in the $10k to $15k range with very low mileage. Even a Mercedes EV hatchback with 21k miles for $13,500 and a Bolt for around $12k.  They dominated the low price, low mileage, newer car markets. Perhaps not a old man happy car but they aren't expensive luxury EVe or ginormous truck EVs.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2024, 09:29:02 AM by spartana »

GilesMM

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2024, 04:27:18 AM »
Here you go: https://www.volvocars.com/us/cars/electric-cars/


Correct - Polestars are made by Geely in China. Reliability study results on the Polestar (https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2023-us-initial-quality-study-iqs) suggest they are off the bottom of the chart for reliability.  So, the savings may be a false economy in terms of time spent trying to deal with a broken car.  Geely and Chery are sold in the country where I spend a bit of time working recently but their reputation is fairly bad on the durability side.

nereo

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2024, 05:04:52 AM »
For example, there's the Changli Freeman, the cheapest electric car in the world. It only has a range of 27 miles and a max speed of 23 MPH, but it retails for $1,200.

Seems pricey.

My bike has a range of about 100 miles, a max speed of around 44 mph and only cost me about 600$ (throw in another 100$ for spandex).  Also, no issues purchasing one here in North America.

:P

Which bike goes 44 mph?

The one with GuitarStv as the engine. [possible down an incline with a slight tail wind, but I trust he’s hit 44mph at least once.  Others have gone faster]

GuitarStv

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2024, 06:15:03 AM »
For example, there's the Changli Freeman, the cheapest electric car in the world. It only has a range of 27 miles and a max speed of 23 MPH, but it retails for $1,200.

Seems pricey.

My bike has a range of about 100 miles, a max speed of around 44 mph and only cost me about 600$ (throw in another 100$ for spandex).  Also, no issues purchasing one here in North America.

:P

Which bike goes 44 mph?

The one with GuitarStv as the engine. [possible down an incline with a slight tail wind, but I trust he’s hit 44mph at least once.  Others have gone faster]

Yep.  I regularly hit 44-45 mph on a particularly steep downhill section about an hour away from home.  I can't hold it though . . . average speed for a 3-4 hour ride is usually around 18 mph.

2sk22

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2024, 08:00:12 AM »
Hmmm... I just went down the used car wormhole and there were tons of small newer low mileage EVs for sale for $5k - $10k. Leafs, Fiat Pops, Ford Focus hatchbacks, Kia souls, Chevy Sparks, Hyundai Nexxos, VW Golf's, BMW i3, some kind of tiny Mitsubishi, Smart cars,  etc etc plus the more expensive Bolts, Konas, and the like. Lots more in the $10k to $15k range with very low mileage. Even a Mercedes EV hatchback with 21k miles for $13,500 and a Bolt for around $12k.  They dominated the low price, low mileage, newer car markets. Perhaps not a happy old man car but they aren't expensive luxury EVe or ginormous truck EVs.

Yes there are a fair number of old EVs on the market but all of them have various issues as those are first-generation vehicles. Nissan Leafs for example have no thermal management system for their batteries so the batteries degrade quicker than most. Others have really small batteries. These are best suited for people tolerant of their deficiencies and as second cars for local trips.

spartana

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2024, 09:13:39 AM »
Hmmm... I just went down the used car wormhole and there were tons of small newer low mileage EVs for sale for $5k - $10k. Leafs, Fiat Pops, Ford Focus hatchbacks, Kia souls, Chevy Sparks, Hyundai Nexxos, VW Golf's, BMW i3, some kind of tiny Mitsubishi, Smart cars,  etc etc plus the more expensive Bolts, Konas, and the like. Lots more in the $10k to $15k range with very low mileage. Even a Mercedes EV hatchback with 21k miles for $13,500 and a Bolt for around $12k.  They dominated the low price, low mileage, newer car markets. Perhaps not a  old man happy  car but they aren't expensive luxury EVs or ginormous truck EVs.

Yes there are a fair number of old EVs on the market but all of them have various issues as those are first-generation vehicles. Nissan Leafs for example have no thermal management system for their batteries so the batteries degrade quicker than most. Others have really small batteries. These are best suited for people tolerant of their deficiencies and as second cars for local trips.
What's old? 2018? 2019? 2020? That's of the used ones I'm seeing with the average age between 2015 and 2020 but maybe that's old in the EV world because of the battery life. I see older Leafs (under 2015) for a couple thousand all the time but the battery life is pretty low.

But I don't know much about EVs, and I realize the OP was talking about the lack of American manufactured small EVs and not small EVs (Old Man Happy Cars lol) available in the US but I (maybe mistakenly) thought they were looking for a some small, inexpensive EV that they could use to tootle around town (like a used Leaf or Fiat 500e) and couldn't find anything like that outside of China manufactured cars. But yeah, other than the Bolt I can't think of any of the American car manufacturers that make small EVs - or really even small ICE cars. Just big trucks and Suvs. 

I saw a couple Vinfasts in my old hood - mid-sized SUV EVs made in Vietnam - so maybe that will be another new EV market. Apparently they are doing a mini EV too - maybe a mini truck. I wish ford made a standard cab maverick as either EV or hybrid but crew cabs are in vogue apparently.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2024, 09:43:58 AM by spartana »

NoVa

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2024, 09:20:36 AM »
China has a huge diversity of EVs on the market, not just the stupid lumbering monster trucks and ultra-expensive luxury cars that are the only kinds American manufacturers make.

I work with a guy who owns a Chevy Bolt which clearly is neither a monster truck nor a luxury car and can be had for less than $20,000 (after tax credit).

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/with-tax-credit-as-down-payment-chevy-bolt-starts-under-20000/

Chinese EVs are cheaper for at least three reasons: lower labor costs, government incentives that make it easier to register and use an EV vs an ICE which produce geater demand resulting in better economies of scale*, and, and this is probably the biggest one, are all the safety requirements for vehicles sold in the USA that add weight and cost to our cars relative to Europe or the rest of the world. Everything from backup cameras to 5 mph bumpers.

What Maizefolk said. One of the reasons it's not sold here is that it doesn't meet US safety standards. And it would not be cheap to bring it up to spec so it could be titled and get tags.

spartana

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2024, 10:10:49 AM »
Whatever happened to the GM made cars like the Gem? Seems most were street legal battery powered cars that were very inexpensive new. There were some tiny mini vans too but not made in the US and short range.  I suppose those could compare to the OPs China EVs

ETA just googled the Gem and it's basicly a street legal golf cart. The other tiny electric vans were made by companies like Mishibushi
« Last Edit: February 02, 2024, 10:15:22 AM by spartana »

Radagast

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2024, 10:23:34 AM »
China has a huge diversity of EVs on the market, not just the stupid lumbering monster trucks and ultra-expensive luxury cars that are the only kinds American manufacturers make.

I work with a guy who owns a Chevy Bolt which clearly is neither a monster truck nor a luxury car and can be had for less than $20,000 (after tax credit).

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/with-tax-credit-as-down-payment-chevy-bolt-starts-under-20000/

Chinese EVs are cheaper for at least three reasons: lower labor costs, government incentives that make it easier to register and use an EV vs an ICE which produce geater demand resulting in better economies of scale*, and, and this is probably the biggest one, are all the safety requirements for vehicles sold in the USA that add weight and cost to our cars relative to Europe or the rest of the world. Everything from backup cameras to 5 mph bumpers.
And environmental / social regulations / property law. In China you can mine anything, move any number of people off the land, kill any wild life, destroy any amount of habitat, dump whatever into the water, release any amount of air pollution, pollute the groundwater for 10,000 years, and nobody will say anything. I would be among the first to say US regulations are cumbersome relative to their effect and there must be a more efficient way, but China has very much the opposite problem.

RWD

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2024, 10:34:11 AM »
Here you go: https://www.volvocars.com/us/cars/electric-cars/

Correct - Polestars are made by Geely in China. Reliability study results on the Polestar (https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2023-us-initial-quality-study-iqs) suggest they are off the bottom of the chart for reliability.  So, the savings may be a false economy in terms of time spent trying to deal with a broken car.  Geely and Chery are sold in the country where I spend a bit of time working recently but their reputation is fairly bad on the durability side.

Polestar 2 was built in China. The Polestar 3 is being built in South Carolina (at least for the North American market). Anecdata: my Polestar 2 has been very reliable.

spartana

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2024, 10:36:42 AM »
China has a huge diversity of EVs on the market, not just the stupid lumbering monster trucks and ultra-expensive luxury cars that are the only kinds American manufacturers make.

I work with a guy who owns a Chevy Bolt which clearly is neither a monster truck nor a luxury car and can be had for less than $20,000 (after tax credit).

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/with-tax-credit-as-down-payment-chevy-bolt-starts-under-20000/

Chinese EVs are cheaper for at least three reasons: lower labor costs, government incentives that make it easier to register and use an EV vs an ICE which produce geater demand resulting in better economies of scale*, and, and this is probably the biggest one, are all the safety requirements for vehicles sold in the USA that add weight and cost to our cars relative to Europe or the rest of the world. Everything from backup cameras to 5 mph bumpers.
And environmental / social regulations / property law. In China you can mine anything, move any number of people off the land, kill any wild life, destroy any amount of habitat, dump whatever into the water, release any amount of air pollution, pollute the groundwater for 10,000 years, and nobody will say anything. I would be among the first to say US regulations are cumbersome relative to their effect and there must be a more efficient way, but China has very much the opposite problem.
I wonder what percent of new car parts are manufactured in other nations,  but the cars are assembled in US plants, with total disregard for US environmental laws?

GuitarStv

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2024, 10:57:15 AM »
China has a huge diversity of EVs on the market, not just the stupid lumbering monster trucks and ultra-expensive luxury cars that are the only kinds American manufacturers make.

I work with a guy who owns a Chevy Bolt which clearly is neither a monster truck nor a luxury car and can be had for less than $20,000 (after tax credit).

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/with-tax-credit-as-down-payment-chevy-bolt-starts-under-20000/

Chinese EVs are cheaper for at least three reasons: lower labor costs, government incentives that make it easier to register and use an EV vs an ICE which produce geater demand resulting in better economies of scale*, and, and this is probably the biggest one, are all the safety requirements for vehicles sold in the USA that add weight and cost to our cars relative to Europe or the rest of the world. Everything from backup cameras to 5 mph bumpers.
And environmental / social regulations / property law. In China you can mine anything, move any number of people off the land, kill any wild life, destroy any amount of habitat, dump whatever into the water, release any amount of air pollution, pollute the groundwater for 10,000 years, and nobody will say anything. I would be among the first to say US regulations are cumbersome relative to their effect and there must be a more efficient way, but China has very much the opposite problem.
I wonder what percent of new car parts are manufactured in other nations,  but the cars are assembled in US plants, with total disregard for US environmental laws?

Pretty close to 100% of electronics at least.

rothwem

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2024, 02:00:19 PM »
China has a huge diversity of EVs on the market, not just the stupid lumbering monster trucks and ultra-expensive luxury cars that are the only kinds American manufacturers make.

I work with a guy who owns a Chevy Bolt which clearly is neither a monster truck nor a luxury car and can be had for less than $20,000 (after tax credit).

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/with-tax-credit-as-down-payment-chevy-bolt-starts-under-20000/

Chinese EVs are cheaper for at least three reasons: lower labor costs, government incentives that make it easier to register and use an EV vs an ICE which produce geater demand resulting in better economies of scale*, and, and this is probably the biggest one, are all the safety requirements for vehicles sold in the USA that add weight and cost to our cars relative to Europe or the rest of the world. Everything from backup cameras to 5 mph bumpers.
And environmental / social regulations / property law. In China you can mine anything, move any number of people off the land, kill any wild life, destroy any amount of habitat, dump whatever into the water, release any amount of air pollution, pollute the groundwater for 10,000 years, and nobody will say anything. I would be among the first to say US regulations are cumbersome relative to their effect and there must be a more efficient way, but China has very much the opposite problem.
I wonder what percent of new car parts are manufactured in other nations,  but the cars are assembled in US plants, with total disregard for US environmental laws?

Pretty close to 100% of electronics at least.

I work for a company that makes (ICE) engine parts, and we've been edging away from China, there's really no telling when a trade war is going to escalate and we got burned really really bad with the Trump tariffs.  Mexico and India are our main low cost countries of choice and India isn't really a whole lot better than China with human rights and pollution, but we are friendlier with their government.  Weirdly, a lot of our (more expensive) welded assemblies are done in China because it turns out that Laser welding is hard and its been really tough to resource. 

sonofsven

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2024, 03:17:19 PM »
This guy bought a shipping container of electric tractors from China: https://electrek.co/2023/11/30/i-bought-container-full-of-electric-tractors-and-construction-equipment/

He also made this unboxing video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLOQhEmmYw8

He mentions in the article that he previously bought a small electric truck from China.

None of these are legal for street use. The US has created a high barrier for entry for a long time to protect our US automakers.

Radagast

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2024, 04:25:47 PM »
China has a huge diversity of EVs on the market, not just the stupid lumbering monster trucks and ultra-expensive luxury cars that are the only kinds American manufacturers make.

I work with a guy who owns a Chevy Bolt which clearly is neither a monster truck nor a luxury car and can be had for less than $20,000 (after tax credit).

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/with-tax-credit-as-down-payment-chevy-bolt-starts-under-20000/

Chinese EVs are cheaper for at least three reasons: lower labor costs, government incentives that make it easier to register and use an EV vs an ICE which produce geater demand resulting in better economies of scale*, and, and this is probably the biggest one, are all the safety requirements for vehicles sold in the USA that add weight and cost to our cars relative to Europe or the rest of the world. Everything from backup cameras to 5 mph bumpers.
And environmental / social regulations / property law. In China you can mine anything, move any number of people off the land, kill any wild life, destroy any amount of habitat, dump whatever into the water, release any amount of air pollution, pollute the groundwater for 10,000 years, and nobody will say anything. I would be among the first to say US regulations are cumbersome relative to their effect and there must be a more efficient way, but China has very much the opposite problem.
I wonder what percent of new car parts are manufactured in other nations,  but the cars are assembled in US plants, with total disregard for US environmental laws?
This is true, but I'd still expect suppliers to the US and EU to generally draw from the top half or quarter of ESG-responsible suppliers in China. They often can and do pay for it, and often insist on it because their customers and shareholders get mad if they find out about the worst practices. When I lived in China there was a truism/joke that the best employer was the government (because money and respect flow to power), the second best was foreign companies (because they insisted on basic safety and worker rights and always paid on time), third best was large Chinese companies (because they were stable), and little Chinese companies were the worst (because they respected nothing and would simply stop paying you for a few months if they ran into a cash flow problem). Chinese products for the Chinese market would generally be "cheap at any cost" while those where foreigners have a say would be "cheap at the right price."

FireLane

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2024, 06:01:08 PM »
I work with a guy who owns a Chevy Bolt which clearly is neither a monster truck nor a luxury car and can be had for less than $20,000 (after tax credit).

I was exaggerating a little for comedic effect, but you're right, the Bolt is an American EV that's not a sports car or a truck. It still costs $30,000, which is more than I'd like to spend on a car. I suppose the tax credit helps.

Hmmm... I just went down the used car wormhole and there were tons of small newer low mileage EVs for sale for $5k - $10k. Leafs, Fiat Pops, Ford Focus hatchbacks, Kia souls, Chevy Sparks, Hyundai Nexxos, VW Golf's, BMW i3, some kind of tiny Mitsubishi, Smart cars,  etc etc plus the more expensive Bolts, Konas, and the like. Lots more in the $10k to $15k range with very low mileage. Even a Mercedes EV hatchback with 21k miles for $13,500 and a Bolt for around $12k.  They dominated the low price, low mileage, newer car markets. Perhaps not a old man happy car but they aren't expensive luxury EVe or ginormous truck EVs.

That's interesting! Where are you looking to see listings like this?

Correct - Polestars are made by Geely in China. Reliability study results on the Polestar (https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2023-us-initial-quality-study-iqs) suggest they are off the bottom of the chart for reliability.  So, the savings may be a false economy in terms of time spent trying to deal with a broken car.  Geely and Chery are sold in the country where I spend a bit of time working recently but their reputation is fairly bad on the durability side.

The quality issue didn't occur to me. I mean, I know the stuff Chinese manufacturers sell on Amazon is almost all cheap crap, but I didn't assume that extended to Chinese-made cars. The lack of safety and labor standards are also a fair point... but I do wish American car companies would make more small, affordable economy EVs. I guess I'm in the minority on that and most Americans really want to buy big, stupid trucks.

maizefolk

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2024, 09:11:26 PM »
I work with a guy who owns a Chevy Bolt which clearly is neither a monster truck nor a luxury car and can be had for less than $20,000 (after tax credit).

I was exaggerating a little for comedic effect, but you're right, the Bolt is an American EV that's not a sports car or a truck. It still costs $30,000, which is more than I'd like to spend on a car. I suppose the tax credit helps.

MSRP is currently ~$27,000 before the tax credit and $20,000 after tax credit.

Jack0Life

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2024, 10:26:09 PM »
I don't trust any of those EV from China.
We just bought a New Model Y long range AWD for under $40k.
This car was over $60k just a little over a year ago.
Brand new inventory car for $50k- $5100 discount. Minus another $7500 fed tax credit at point of sale brings it down to $37,400. Add another $1400 for destination cost.
We traded in our 2015 Lexus IS250 and got $16200(+1000 tax saving on trade in).
OTD, we paid ~$25k.
Personally best car I've ever own. Faster than anything I've driven. So much torque that passing is a breeze.
All the techs is too much to describe.
Sadly, the car belongs to my wife.
So sad that I'm thinking of trading in my CRV for another Model Y.
2024 is YOLO for sure.

spartana

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2024, 10:59:35 PM »
I work with a guy who owns a Chevy Bolt which clearly is neither a monster truck nor a luxury car and can be had for less than $20,000 (after tax credit).

I was exaggerating a little for comedic effect, but you're right, the Bolt is an American EV that's not a sports car or a truck. It still costs $30,000, which is more than I'd like to spend on a car. I suppose the tax credit helps.

Hmmm... I just went down the used car wormhole and there were tons of small newer low mileage EVs for sale for $5k - $10k. Leafs, Fiat Pops, Ford Focus hatchbacks, Kia souls, Chevy Sparks, Hyundai Nexxos, VW Golf's, BMW i3, some kind of tiny Mitsubishi, Smart cars,  etc etc plus the more expensive Bolts, Konas, and the like. Lots more in the $10k to $15k range with very low mileage. Even a Mercedes EV hatchback with 21k miles for $13,500 and a Bolt for around $12k.  They dominated the low price, low mileage, newer car markets. Perhaps not a old man happy car but they aren't expensive luxury EVe or ginormous truck EVs.

That's interesting! Where are you looking to see listings like this[/b]?

Correct - Polestars are made by Geely in China. Reliability study results on the Polestar (https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2023-us-initial-quality-study-iqs) suggest they are off the bottom of the chart for reliability.  So, the savings may be a false economy in terms of time spent trying to deal with a broken car.  Geely and Chery are sold in the country where I spend a bit of time working recently but their reputation is fairly bad on the durability side.

The quality issue didn't occur to me. I mean, I know the stuff Chinese manufacturers sell on Amazon is almost all cheap crap, but I didn't assume that extended to Chinese-made cars. The lack of safety and labor standards are also a fair point... but I do wish American car companies would make more small, affordable economy EVs. I guess I'm in the minority on that and most Americans really want to buy big, stupid trucks.
I just looked at Edmunds (Orange County Ca but more in greater LA area) https://www.edmunds.com/used-electric-orange-ca/?sort=price%3Aasc  Car Gurus etc has the same stuff. Even the local new car dealers have used low mileage low price EVs. I saw 2 at at Hyundai dealer -  2017 Leaf with 27k miles for $9,000 and a 2020 Leaf with around 30k miles for approx $12,000. Many more. Range varies with age but most are in the 100 to 150 mile range depending on age.

2017 Nissan
LEAF S
$9,200
Pricing
Info
27,573 miles Odometer
112.0 MPGe
107 miles Electric Range
Other Engine
Single Speed Reducer
FWD
Gun Metallic Exterior
Black Interior
Stock #: PG8113

2020 Nissan
LEAF S
$12,180
Pricing
Info
32,035 miles Odometer
111.0 MPGe
150 miles Electric Range
Other Engine
Single Speed Reducer
FWD
Gun Metallic Exterior
Black Interior
Stock #: PG8083
« Last Edit: February 02, 2024, 11:27:29 PM by spartana »

2sk22

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2024, 07:52:18 AM »
I was just watching this video on the savage geese channel on YouTube (excellent car review channel incidentally). Used EVs have suffered from incredible amounts of depreciation. I think in a couple of years, dealers may actually start paying us to take used EVs off their hands :-)

sonofsven

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2024, 09:40:26 AM »
I was just watching this video on the savage geese channel on YouTube (excellent car review channel incidentally). Used EVs have suffered from incredible amounts of depreciation. I think in a couple of years, dealers may actually start paying us to take used EVs off their hands :-)
I haven't watched your link but I saw a story (Forbes online) making a similar claim about rapid depreciation of EV's .
Of course, the author was ignoring the available state and federal subsidy and the effect that has on the resale value, and they were rightly scorched in the comments.

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2024, 09:51:21 AM »
I was just watching this video on the savage geese channel on YouTube (excellent car review channel incidentally). Used EVs have suffered from incredible amounts of depreciation. I think in a couple of years, dealers may actually start paying us to take used EVs off their hands :-)

I’ll happily take that bet

My understanding is that the majority of the depreciation had to do with the large subsidies being offered on EVs at all levels. We got a crazy $11k off our car, which made a new EV far cheaper than a similar ICE or even used EV. Crazy.

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2024, 10:00:39 AM »
I was just watching this video on the savage geese channel on YouTube (excellent car review channel incidentally). Used EVs have suffered from incredible amounts of depreciation. I think in a couple of years, dealers may actually start paying us to take used EVs off their hands :-)

I’ll happily take that bet

My understanding is that the majority of the depreciation had to do with the large subsidies being offered on EVs at all levels. We got a crazy $11k off our car, which made a new EV far cheaper than a similar ICE or even used EV. Crazy.

Musks nutty pricing changes are a factor but EV is also a rapidly evolving technology with battery life advancing annually.  Thus, used EVs are not comparable to new EVs and this depreciates them in a way not typical for ICE or Hybrid vehicles.

spartana

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2024, 10:45:18 AM »
Another.sign of the declining EV market: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/hertz-sell-about-20000-evs-us-fleet-2024-01-11/#:~:text=Hertz%20will%20instead%20opt%20for,to%20electric%20by%202024%20end.

I've rented a couple of EVs from hertz which were actually the lowest priced rentals they offer - A Tesla long range model ?? was much less expensive than its tiny subcompact ICE. Apparently the US market is dwindling and everyone still wants an ICE vehicle. Especially those who are renting or have longer commutes. So Hertz is leaving the EV market and selling off itbstock.

spartana

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2024, 10:51:42 AM »
I was just watching this video on the savage geese channel on YouTube (excellent car review channel incidentally). Used EVs have suffered from incredible amounts of depreciation. I think in a couple of years, dealers may actually start paying us to take used EVs off their hands :-)
@RWD mentioned a huge depreciation on his Polestar after about a year of ownership.  I forget the number but $10s of thousands I believe. I like the Polestar but that must of hurt. Of course if you plan to keep it forever then it's not so bad.

FireLane

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2024, 11:38:58 AM »
I'm not surprised that Hertz hasn't had success renting EVs. The infrastructure for it just isn't there yet.

I'd like to buy an EV, but I'll have to do a lot of research first to map out the nearest charging stations that are compatible with the car. If I was planning a long road trip, it would be even more work to make sure that chargers exist along my route. If you're at home, you might have an exterior outlet you can fall back on, but what do you do in a city you've never been to?

When electric charging is as easy to find as gas stations are now, it will be different.

spartana

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2024, 11:58:28 AM »
I'm not surprised that Hertz hasn't had success renting EVs. The infrastructure for it just isn't there yet.

I'd like to buy an EV, but I'll have to do a lot of research first to map out the nearest charging stations that are compatible with the car. If I was planning a long road trip, it would be even more work to make sure that chargers exist along my route. If you're at home, you might have an exterior outlet you can fall back on, but what do you do in a city you've never been to?

When electric charging is as easy to find as gas stations are now, it will be different.
That's definitely the problem (or at least fear that there will be a problem) for me. I was carless for most of the past 4 years and was living somewhere walkable and bikable but would rent (from Hertz!) a mid sized SUV forge month here and there to do road trips. I tried it in a EV and it was OK if I stuck to normal locations but if far off the beaten path or staying at a remote campsite I wouldn't have worked for me. I think that's the reality for a lot of commuters and road strippers. Too much hassle finding a charging station when you need it and not able to charge at home.

Just Joe

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2024, 01:57:36 PM »
Hmmm... I just went down the used car wormhole and there were tons of small newer low mileage EVs for sale for $5k - $10k. Leafs, Fiat Pops, Ford Focus hatchbacks, Kia souls, Chevy Sparks, Hyundai Nexxos, VW Golf's, BMW i3, some kind of tiny Mitsubishi, Smart cars,  etc etc plus the more expensive Bolts, Konas, and the like. Lots more in the $10k to $15k range with very low mileage. Even a Mercedes EV hatchback with 21k miles for $13,500 and a Bolt for around $12k.  They dominated the low price, low mileage, newer car markets. Perhaps not a happy old man car but they aren't expensive luxury EVe or ginormous truck EVs.

Yes there are a fair number of old EVs on the market but all of them have various issues as those are first-generation vehicles. Nissan Leafs for example have no thermal management system for their batteries so the batteries degrade quicker than most. Others have really small batteries. These are best suited for people tolerant of their deficiencies and as second cars for local trips.

The Leaf is fine - just don't fast charge it. They don't overheat on L1 or L2 chargers. If you buy a Leaf with ~100 miles of range left, it won't take long to recharge. With the car I was babysitting for a couple of weeks - I was able to keep up with my range needs using a 120V outlet. The one time I took it out of town to a destination about 125 miles away I fast charged it.

They fast charge just fine - just don't plan on doing it more than once in a while. Not good for the battery though Nissan says the battery chemistry to specially formulated for the aircooled design. I never see my employer's Leaf battery heat up except during L3 charging on a hot day.

Just Joe

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2024, 02:00:15 PM »
China has a huge diversity of EVs on the market, not just the stupid lumbering monster trucks and ultra-expensive luxury cars that are the only kinds American manufacturers make.

I work with a guy who owns a Chevy Bolt which clearly is neither a monster truck nor a luxury car and can be had for less than $20,000 (after tax credit).

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/with-tax-credit-as-down-payment-chevy-bolt-starts-under-20000/

Chinese EVs are cheaper for at least three reasons: lower labor costs, government incentives that make it easier to register and use an EV vs an ICE which produce geater demand resulting in better economies of scale*, and, and this is probably the biggest one, are all the safety requirements for vehicles sold in the USA that add weight and cost to our cars relative to Europe or the rest of the world. Everything from backup cameras to 5 mph bumpers.

What Maizefolk said. One of the reasons it's not sold here is that it doesn't meet US safety standards. And it would not be cheap to bring it up to spec so it could be titled and get tags.

It MIGHT depend on the state you live in. In my state people can register all sorts of SXS and ATV vehicles as motorcycles. There are restrictions - can't drive them on the interstate and I believe it is a daylight only situation. Someone here is driving a Mahindra jeep type vehicle around town.

OP - I understand your feelings about the forbidden fruit of far away vehicles we aren't allowed to buy here in the "Land of the Free". I'd likely buy an XBUS if they were allowed to be sold here, if I could register it and they were priced in a sane way. The most recent numbers I read about put them in "real car price-land".

Not paying real car money for a vehicle with limited capabilities.

Doesn't matter, they may be forever be vaporware as the company is having trouble reaching production.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBxjZjLYcjg
« Last Edit: February 05, 2024, 02:14:04 PM by Just Joe »

spartana

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2024, 02:38:29 PM »
Hmmm... I just went down the used car wormhole and there were tons of small newer low mileage EVs for sale for $5k - $10k. Leafs, Fiat Pops, Ford Focus hatchbacks, Kia souls, Chevy Sparks, Hyundai Nexxos, VW Golf's, BMW i3, some kind of tiny Mitsubishi, Smart cars,  etc etc plus the more expensive Bolts, Konas, and the like. Lots more in the $10k to $15k range with very low mileage. Even a Mercedes EV hatchback with 21k miles for $13,500 and a Bolt for around $12k.  They dominated the low price, low mileage, newer car markets. Perhaps not a happy old man car but they aren't expensive luxury EVe or ginormous truck EVs.

Yes there are a fair number of old EVs on the market but all of them have various issues as those are first-generation vehicles. Nissan Leafs for example have no thermal management system for their batteries so the batteries degrade quicker than most. Others have really small batteries. These are best suited for people tolerant of their deficiencies and as second cars for local trips.

The Leaf is fine - just don't fast charge it. They don't overheat on L1 or L2 chargers. If you buy a Leaf with ~100 miles of range left, it won't take long to recharge. With the car I was babysitting for a couple of weeks - I was able to keep up with my range needs using a 120V outlet. The one time I took it out of town to a destination about 125 miles away I fast charged it.

They fast charge just fine - just don't plan on doing it more than once in a while. Not good for the battery though Nissan says the battery chemistry to specially formulated for the aircooled design. I never see my employer's Leaf battery heat up except during L3 charging on a hot day.
I hardly ever drive since I bought a small older Ranger truck recently after 4 years of carlessness. Last time I drove or was even in a vehicle was Jan 1st. So around town a Leaf or any small EV would be good. But... I don't need a car around town and.just for longer trips so discounted EVs altogether. Although for someone like the OP who's just looking at small cars to get aroundbtown a used Leaf would be good. I got to drive a Kona EV too and that was fun.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2024, 02:40:00 PM by spartana »

RWD

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2024, 04:18:04 PM »
I was just watching this video on the savage geese channel on YouTube (excellent car review channel incidentally). Used EVs have suffered from incredible amounts of depreciation. I think in a couple of years, dealers may actually start paying us to take used EVs off their hands :-)
@RWD mentioned a huge depreciation on his Polestar after about a year of ownership.  I forget the number but $10s of thousands I believe. I like the Polestar but that must of hurt. Of course if you plan to keep it forever then it's not so bad.
$10k in year one. $23k in year two. I was expecting about half as much depreciation, so definitely a shock. I'd like to say the federal refund helped but that barely covered taxes and registration for the first two years. The plan is to keep it for a very long time, but of course if I had known it would be the bad I would have considered waiting a couple years and just picked one up for half off...

spartana

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2024, 07:10:26 PM »
I was just watching this video on the savage geese channel on YouTube (excellent car review channel incidentally). Used EVs have suffered from incredible amounts of depreciation. I think in a couple of years, dealers may actually start paying us to take used EVs off their hands :-)
@RWD mentioned a huge depreciation on his Polestar after about a year of ownership.  I forget the number but $10s of thousands I believe. I like the Polestar but that must of hurt. Of course if you plan to keep it forever then it's not so bad.
$10k in year one. $23k in year two. I was expecting about half as much depreciation, so definitely a shock. I'd like to say the federal refund helped but that barely covered taxes and registration for the first two years. The plan is to keep it for a very long time, but of course if I had known it would be the bad I would have considered waiting a couple years and just picked one up for half off...
YIKES!! It's a nice car though. Guess Hertz if off loading its EV stock and they had Polestar 2's for rent but didn't see any for sale in my area. Here's some of their sales:
https://www.hertzcarsales.com/used-electric-vehicles.htm?ddcref=fluency&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIk4K2ytCVhAMVvW5_AB2OewMjEAAYASABEgKe7vD_BwE&tcdcmpid=1374689&geoZip=91702&geoRadius=0

FireLane

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #39 on: May 20, 2024, 07:02:29 AM »
I read an article about the Seagull, an EV made by a Chinese company called BYD. It has an 81 mph top speed and a 252-mile range, and it sells for $12,000. This is the kind of car I'd love to buy, if there were anything like it in America:

https://apnews.com/article/china-byd-auto-seagull-auto-ev-cae20c92432b74e95c234d93ec1df400

Quote
Earlier this year, Tesla CEO Elon Musk told industry analysts Chinese EVs are so good that without trade barriers, “they will pretty much demolish most other car companies in the world.”

... “The Western markets did not democratize EVs. They gentrified EVs,” said Bill Russo, the founder of the Automobility Ltd. consultancy in Shanghai. “And when you gentrify, you limit the size of the market. China is all about democratizing EVs, and that’s what will ultimately lead Chinese companies to be successful as they go global.”

Biden has slapped tariffs on Chinese EVs, which I assume is pure protectionism to get votes from Michigan auto workers. Still, it's fair to say this isn't a level playing field. Chinese cars are cheap partly because because they don't have to comply with American safety standards, environmental or labor laws.

I've also read that the Chinese government has the ability to track and spy on any Chinese-made EV, and may even have the power to remotely disable them. Imagine if the U.S. and China got into a trade spat and China retaliated by bricking tens of thousands of Americans' cars. I can't blame people for being worried about the security implications.

But even if the Seagull is never sold in the U.S., it's shaking the markets up. American automakers are terrified, as they should be, and they're already studying how to compete:

Quote
Inside a huge garage in an industrial area west of Detroit, a company called Caresoft Global tore apart a Seagull that its China office purchased and shipped to the U.S.

Company President Terry Woychowski, a former chief engineer on General Motors’ big pickup trucks, said the car is a “clarion call” for the U.S. auto industry, which is years behind China in designing low-cost EVs.

After the teardown, Woychowski, who has been in the auto business for 45 years, said he was left wondering if U.S. automakers can adjust. “Things will have to change in some radical ways in order to be able to compete,” he said.

... Ford CEO Jim Farley has seen Caresoft’s work on the Seagull and observed BYD’s rapid growth across the globe, especially in Europe, where he used to run Ford’s operations. He’s moving to change his company. A small “skunkworks” team is designing a new, small EV from the ground up to keep costs down and quality high, he told analysts earlier this year.

If American automakers hadn't insisted on manufacturing stupidly expensive and overbuilt wankpanzers, they wouldn't be so far behind the curve. But if the Seagull forces them to realize they have to compete on price, good.

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #40 on: May 20, 2024, 07:58:50 AM »
Another.sign of the declining EV market: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/hertz-sell-about-20000-evs-us-fleet-2024-01-11/#:~:text=Hertz%20will%20instead%20opt%20for,to%20electric%20by%202024%20end.

I've rented a couple of EVs from hertz which were actually the lowest priced rentals they offer - A Tesla long range model ?? was much less expensive than its tiny subcompact ICE. Apparently the US market is dwindling and everyone still wants an ICE vehicle. Especially those who are renting or have longer commutes. So Hertz is leaving the EV market and selling off itbstock.

To me rental EVs seem like the worst idea. I'm honestly not surprised it failed. The biggest value of owning an EV is home charging. I usually also drive at on more when I pick up a rental because I'm usually on vacation. So you don't have home charging and you have to plan everything you do ahead to find a charging station. So, why would you want to deal with that headache?

Just Joe

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2024, 11:57:25 AM »
I read an article about the Seagull, an EV made by a Chinese company called BYD. It has an 81 mph top speed and a 252-mile range, and it sells for $12,000. This is the kind of car I'd love to buy...

Why not buy a used Nissan Leaf Plus or a Hyundai Kona (64 kwh) or Kia Niro (64 kwh) or Chevy Bolts?

You'd have a warranty, parts and service available. Some new EVs are not holding their value well right now.

Sub-30K miles, ~three years old, can be found for prices below $20K and examples with mileage that low often look and operate like new.

That's the choice we made.

FireLane

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2024, 02:08:43 PM »
I read an article about the Seagull, an EV made by a Chinese company called BYD. It has an 81 mph top speed and a 252-mile range, and it sells for $12,000. This is the kind of car I'd love to buy...

Why not buy a used Nissan Leaf Plus or a Hyundai Kona (64 kwh) or Kia Niro (64 kwh) or Chevy Bolts?

You'd have a warranty, parts and service available. Some new EVs are not holding their value well right now.

Sub-30K miles, ~three years old, can be found for prices below $20K and examples with mileage that low often look and operate like new.

That's the choice we made.

That probably is what I'll do, if I need to buy a car in the next few years. @spartana had some good suggestions along the same lines.

But it would be even better if you could buy a new EV for under $20,000! Then the used versions would be even cheaper. :)

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2024, 02:49:56 PM »
But it would be even better if you could buy a new EV for under $20,000! Then the used versions would be even cheaper. :)

Technically the 2023 Bolt EV with federal incentive was under $20k (discontinued for now). There are only two other cars (not EVs) with MSRP under $20k (Mitsubishi Mirage and Nissan Versa) so the days of those prices for new cars are virtually behind us. Another 3-5 years and there will be none. The steady march of inflation.

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Re: I want to buy an EV from China
« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2024, 06:07:11 PM »
We're not in the US and therefore not subjected to the same restrictive protectionism.  We bought a new full electric car last year.  We had every intention of buying a Tesla, but once we got behind the wheel to test drive various options, it was not even close to matching up to the Chinese BYD or MG alternatives.  In our opinion the Tesla had poorer build quality (rattling bits that shouldn't rattle, stitching that was already fraying in a test vehicle with less than 1,500 km on the odo, window that didn't seal quite properly), a lower quality autonomous driving algorithm and far less intuitive tech implementation.  And the Tesla was still more expensive.  Zero regrets with our decision.

I have a couple of mates who were in love with their Teslas, both absolute fanbois, who have just traded them in for BYD Seals.  Never going back apparently.