Author Topic: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group  (Read 83065 times)

rtrnow

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #150 on: March 29, 2016, 09:52:45 AM »
I'm kind of amazed that basically every reply against making more environmental choices here boils down to "but it's not as bad something else." Doing nothing because someone else is doing something worse is pathetic.

It's sad how watered down these forums have become. It seems to more and more be upper middle class people patting themselves on the back for saving more than the average and then justifying consuming bc of that savings. You can never discover what truly makes you happy without living life as simply as possible at least for a time, but instead people just can't not have a boat, suv, race car, hot air ballon, etc, etc. If you actually went a couple years without most of that shit you would realize that your view would probably change. It's the lack of even being willing to try here that seems like lazy people rationalizing their lives. These forums in general have just become a place to rationalize a wasteful lifestyle in so many instances.

To me, it's the height of arrogance to tell someone else you know better than them what makes them happy.  You want to tell me broccoli is better for me than candy bars, okay, got it.  If you want to tell me that if I stopped eating candy bars and only ate broccoli eventually I'd only like broccoli?  Yeah, maybe, or maybe you can just fuck right off.

Or you could actually read what you bolded. I said try it. I made no definitive statement, but thanks for telling me to fuck off.

"You can never discover what truly makes you happy"  and "If you actually went a couple years without most of that shit you would realize that your view would probably change." sounds pretty fucking definitive to me.

Probably?!! That's not definitive. Also do explain how saying trying a more simple life would not help you discover what truly makes you happy? That might be a 600hp car but it's hard to know that if you never go without one. You can also explain how that's telling people what makes them happy.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 09:54:38 AM by rtrnow »

Chris22

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #151 on: March 29, 2016, 09:56:17 AM »
I'm kind of amazed that basically every reply against making more environmental choices here boils down to "but it's not as bad something else." Doing nothing because someone else is doing something worse is pathetic.

It's sad how watered down these forums have become. It seems to more and more be upper middle class people patting themselves on the back for saving more than the average and then justifying consuming bc of that savings. You can never discover what truly makes you happy without living life as simply as possible at least for a time, but instead people just can't not have a boat, suv, race car, hot air ballon, etc, etc. If you actually went a couple years without most of that shit you would realize that your view would probably change. It's the lack of even being willing to try here that seems like lazy people rationalizing their lives. These forums in general have just become a place to rationalize a wasteful lifestyle in so many instances.

To me, it's the height of arrogance to tell someone else you know better than them what makes them happy.  You want to tell me broccoli is better for me than candy bars, okay, got it.  If you want to tell me that if I stopped eating candy bars and only ate broccoli eventually I'd only like broccoli?  Yeah, maybe, or maybe you can just fuck right off.

Or you could actually read what you bolded. I said try it. I made no definitive statement, but thanks for telling me to fuck off.

"You can never discover what truly makes you happy"  and "If you actually went a couple years without most of that shit you would realize that your view would probably change." sounds pretty fucking definitive to me.

Probably?!! That's not definitive. Also do explain how saying trying a more simple life would not help you discover what truly makes you happy? That might be a 600hp car but it's hard to know that if you never go without one. You can also explain how that's telling people what makes them happy.

I spent the first 25 years of my life wanting and daydreaming about sports cars, then I got one and it makes me deliriously happy.  Why should I "go without" it to reaffirm that?  Doesn't everyone "go without" right up until they get something? 

Alex321

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #152 on: March 29, 2016, 09:57:06 AM »
rtrnow - what does it mean to be accountable to those around you? this is a serious question.

rtrnow

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #153 on: March 29, 2016, 10:03:30 AM »
rtrnow - what does it mean to be accountable to those around you? this is a serious question.

Perhaps accountable is not the best word since there are no repercussions short of possible scorn. My point is I try to think about my actions be they environmental or otherwise and how they affect others. There's no real debate anymore about climate change and man's influence on it in the worldwide scientific community. I think if we all took better stock of how we contributed and admitted that to ourselves, we might make different choices. I have in some respects but yes I still travel and own a car. What really set me off in this thread is the idea that "my pollution isn't as bad as Bob's, China's, MMM's, etc so it doesn't matter." I think that's false and a shitty way to look at it. I live in a neighborhood where I see people litter all the time. I don't use that as an excuse to through trash out the car window. It seems the same argument to me.

rtrnow

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #154 on: March 29, 2016, 10:07:27 AM »
I'm kind of amazed that basically every reply against making more environmental choices here boils down to "but it's not as bad something else." Doing nothing because someone else is doing something worse is pathetic.

It's sad how watered down these forums have become. It seems to more and more be upper middle class people patting themselves on the back for saving more than the average and then justifying consuming bc of that savings. You can never discover what truly makes you happy without living life as simply as possible at least for a time, but instead people just can't not have a boat, suv, race car, hot air ballon, etc, etc. If you actually went a couple years without most of that shit you would realize that your view would probably change. It's the lack of even being willing to try here that seems like lazy people rationalizing their lives. These forums in general have just become a place to rationalize a wasteful lifestyle in so many instances.

To me, it's the height of arrogance to tell someone else you know better than them what makes them happy.  You want to tell me broccoli is better for me than candy bars, okay, got it.  If you want to tell me that if I stopped eating candy bars and only ate broccoli eventually I'd only like broccoli?  Yeah, maybe, or maybe you can just fuck right off.

Or you could actually read what you bolded. I said try it. I made no definitive statement, but thanks for telling me to fuck off.

"You can never discover what truly makes you happy"  and "If you actually went a couple years without most of that shit you would realize that your view would probably change." sounds pretty fucking definitive to me.

Probably?!! That's not definitive. Also do explain how saying trying a more simple life would not help you discover what truly makes you happy? That might be a 600hp car but it's hard to know that if you never go without one. You can also explain how that's telling people what makes them happy.

I spent the first 25 years of my life wanting and daydreaming about sports cars, then I got one and it makes me deliriously happy.  Why should I "go without" it to reaffirm that?  Doesn't everyone "go without" right up until they get something?

Because people grow up and change over time. I did the same thing. On rare occasions I do miss planting my right foot on 350hp but those are the very rare times. Passing stopped traffic on a road bike at 25mph can offer much of the same thrill but I would have not found that without trying something new/different.

Chris22

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #155 on: March 29, 2016, 10:12:34 AM »
rtrnow - what does it mean to be accountable to those around you? this is a serious question.

Perhaps accountable is not the best word since there are no repercussions short of possible scorn. My point is I try to think about my actions be they environmental or otherwise and how they affect others. There's no real debate anymore about climate change and man's influence on it in the worldwide scientific community. I think if we all took better stock of how we contributed and admitted that to ourselves, we might make different choices. I have in some respects but yes I still travel and own a car. What really set me off in this thread is the idea that "my pollution isn't as bad as Bob's, China's, MMM's, etc so it doesn't matter." I think that's false and a shitty way to look at it. I live in a neighborhood where I see people litter all the time. I don't use that as an excuse to through trash out the car window. It seems the same argument to me.

Except the bolded is basically true.  A modern car, for instance, basically emits cleaner air than it takes in.  So I'm sick of being vilified for it because it's fashionable or image-based.  It's screaming at a guy who spilled his glass of ice water on the Titanic right after it crashed into the iceberg.  And that's assuming there really is a catastrophe, which I've been hearing about for literally 25+ years and have yet to see any ill effects from.  Real POLLUTION, like dumping chemicals and trash into the air/water/ground, yes, I'm all for fixing that.  But screaming about someone who drives a modern emissions controlled SUV instead of a Prius or a Leaf, come on, it's window dressing, it's nitpicking, and it's tiresome.

Chris22

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #156 on: March 29, 2016, 10:15:37 AM »
I'm kind of amazed that basically every reply against making more environmental choices here boils down to "but it's not as bad something else." Doing nothing because someone else is doing something worse is pathetic.

It's sad how watered down these forums have become. It seems to more and more be upper middle class people patting themselves on the back for saving more than the average and then justifying consuming bc of that savings. You can never discover what truly makes you happy without living life as simply as possible at least for a time, but instead people just can't not have a boat, suv, race car, hot air ballon, etc, etc. If you actually went a couple years without most of that shit you would realize that your view would probably change. It's the lack of even being willing to try here that seems like lazy people rationalizing their lives. These forums in general have just become a place to rationalize a wasteful lifestyle in so many instances.

To me, it's the height of arrogance to tell someone else you know better than them what makes them happy.  You want to tell me broccoli is better for me than candy bars, okay, got it.  If you want to tell me that if I stopped eating candy bars and only ate broccoli eventually I'd only like broccoli?  Yeah, maybe, or maybe you can just fuck right off.

Or you could actually read what you bolded. I said try it. I made no definitive statement, but thanks for telling me to fuck off.

"You can never discover what truly makes you happy"  and "If you actually went a couple years without most of that shit you would realize that your view would probably change." sounds pretty fucking definitive to me.

Probably?!! That's not definitive. Also do explain how saying trying a more simple life would not help you discover what truly makes you happy? That might be a 600hp car but it's hard to know that if you never go without one. You can also explain how that's telling people what makes them happy.

I spent the first 25 years of my life wanting and daydreaming about sports cars, then I got one and it makes me deliriously happy.  Why should I "go without" it to reaffirm that?  Doesn't everyone "go without" right up until they get something?

Because people grow up and change over time. I did the same thing. On rare occasions I do miss planting my right foot on 350hp but those are the very rare times. Passing stopped traffic on a road bike at 25mph can offer much of the same thrill but I would have not found that without trying something new/different.

It may be the same thrill for you, but it's not the same for me, and assuming I don't have experience with both because I haven't come to the same conclusion as you is arrogant.  There's a pervasive opinion on this board that if everyone would just try biking everywhere and cutting cable and gardening and rewashing Ziploc bags and all that, everyone would love it.  It's horseshit.  Some people love driving cars or living in big houses or not biking places and all of that not because they're inexperienced or wrong or ignorant, but because they have different opinions and preferences than you. 

Midwest

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #157 on: March 29, 2016, 10:19:16 AM »
rtrnow - what does it mean to be accountable to those around you? this is a serious question.

Perhaps accountable is not the best word since there are no repercussions short of possible scorn. My point is I try to think about my actions be they environmental or otherwise and how they affect others. There's no real debate anymore about climate change and man's influence on it in the worldwide scientific community. I think if we all took better stock of how we contributed and admitted that to ourselves, we might make different choices. I have in some respects but yes I still travel and own a car. What really set me off in this thread is the idea that "my pollution isn't as bad as Bob's, China's, MMM's, etc so it doesn't matter." I think that's false and a shitty way to look at it. I live in a neighborhood where I see people litter all the time. I don't use that as an excuse to through trash out the car window. It seems the same argument to me.

We both used similar levels of petroleum last year in recreational pursuits.  Do you feel your use of petroleum to go camping was in any way morally superior or more accountable than my usage?

I enjoy boating and many other outdoor pursuits.  I've minimized my impact to the extent possible while still pursuing them.

Alex321

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #158 on: March 29, 2016, 10:22:58 AM »
rtrnow - what does it mean to be accountable to those around you? this is a serious question.

Perhaps accountable is not the best word since there are no repercussions short of possible scorn. My point is I try to think about my actions be they environmental or otherwise and how they affect others. There's no real debate anymore about climate change and man's influence on it in the worldwide scientific community. I think if we all took better stock of how we contributed and admitted that to ourselves, we might make different choices. I have in some respects but yes I still travel and own a car. What really set me off in this thread is the idea that "my pollution isn't as bad as Bob's, China's, MMM's, etc so it doesn't matter." I think that's false and a shitty way to look at it. I live in a neighborhood where I see people litter all the time. I don't use that as an excuse to through trash out the car window. It seems the same argument to me.

I disagree that there's no real debate about climate change. It's a hotly debated topic. Specifically, it seems to those of us who have tried to remain neutral and objective that the predictions from the past two decades have been off (far less severe than predicted) by at least a factor of 10, and possibly more.

I understand what you're saying about not acting gratuitously wasteful, like throwing litter out the window. But I think that everyone who is willing to be mindful about his own consumption ultimately can only do so by comparing himself to others. I'd venture to say that you did the exact same thing when you talked about your travel, and that at least it was in a 35 mpg car.

Without those sort of benchmarks, what else would we have?

Ricky

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #159 on: March 29, 2016, 10:43:08 AM »
I suspect cars are less than a quarter of most people's "carbon impact" overall, especially just the gas part of owning a car...

But how can that be when transportation is estimated well above a quarter of all CO2 emissions? Every time you buy anything at the store, you're burning part of the fuel it took to get it there. I assume it's fair to bind cars with transportation. Anyway, I'm not arguing for or against the environment here, just pointing that out.

Ricky -

This quotes transportation at 22% - http://whatsyourimpact.org/greenhouse-gases/carbon-dioxide-sources

See figure 2.

EPA says 27% - https://www3.epa.gov/climatechange/ghgemissions/sources.html

That's based off 2013 data whereas the article you linked is based on 2010 data.

Of course, everything is just an estimate. Regardless, transportation is the second largest emitter of CO2.

rtrnow

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #160 on: March 29, 2016, 11:22:01 AM »
I'm kind of amazed that basically every reply against making more environmental choices here boils down to "but it's not as bad something else." Doing nothing because someone else is doing something worse is pathetic.

It's sad how watered down these forums have become. It seems to more and more be upper middle class people patting themselves on the back for saving more than the average and then justifying consuming bc of that savings. You can never discover what truly makes you happy without living life as simply as possible at least for a time, but instead people just can't not have a boat, suv, race car, hot air ballon, etc, etc. If you actually went a couple years without most of that shit you would realize that your view would probably change. It's the lack of even being willing to try here that seems like lazy people rationalizing their lives. These forums in general have just become a place to rationalize a wasteful lifestyle in so many instances.

To me, it's the height of arrogance to tell someone else you know better than them what makes them happy.  You want to tell me broccoli is better for me than candy bars, okay, got it.  If you want to tell me that if I stopped eating candy bars and only ate broccoli eventually I'd only like broccoli?  Yeah, maybe, or maybe you can just fuck right off.

Or you could actually read what you bolded. I said try it. I made no definitive statement, but thanks for telling me to fuck off.

"You can never discover what truly makes you happy"  and "If you actually went a couple years without most of that shit you would realize that your view would probably change." sounds pretty fucking definitive to me.

Probably?!! That's not definitive. Also do explain how saying trying a more simple life would not help you discover what truly makes you happy? That might be a 600hp car but it's hard to know that if you never go without one. You can also explain how that's telling people what makes them happy.

I spent the first 25 years of my life wanting and daydreaming about sports cars, then I got one and it makes me deliriously happy.  Why should I "go without" it to reaffirm that?  Doesn't everyone "go without" right up until they get something?

Because people grow up and change over time. I did the same thing. On rare occasions I do miss planting my right foot on 350hp but those are the very rare times. Passing stopped traffic on a road bike at 25mph can offer much of the same thrill but I would have not found that without trying something new/different.

It may be the same thrill for you, but it's not the same for me, and assuming I don't have experience with both because I haven't come to the same conclusion as you is arrogant.  There's a pervasive opinion on this board that if everyone would just try biking everywhere and cutting cable and gardening and rewashing Ziploc bags and all that, everyone would love it.  It's horseshit.  Some people love driving cars or living in big houses or not biking places and all of that not because they're inexperienced or wrong or ignorant, but because they have different opinions and preferences than you.

Accept I never really sad any of that shit, but you're stuck on vilifying me because i said you should try something different and come to your own conclusions. That was one example of what could come from going without. Yes, there is a big difference to going without something you've had vs something you've only dreamed of owning. But hey don't let what I actually wrote get I the way of your diatribe.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 11:30:59 AM by rtrnow »

Northwestie

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #161 on: March 29, 2016, 11:22:12 AM »

I disagree that there's no real debate about climate change. It's a hotly debated topic. Specifically, it seems to those of us who have tried to remain neutral and objective that the predictions from the past two decades have been off (far less severe than predicted) by at least a factor of 10, and possibly more.



Well, actually no.

The predictive models so far have be underestimating climate change to date.  There are non-scientists out there doing arm-waving, but if you look at the IPCC Reports and the regional summaries, and then at the step down data analysis from groups such as the University of Washington Climate Actin Group - these are very conservative estimate of sea level rise and ocean warming - which in reality have blown by what was previously predicted. 

Alex321

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #162 on: March 29, 2016, 11:37:32 AM »

I disagree that there's no real debate about climate change. It's a hotly debated topic. Specifically, it seems to those of us who have tried to remain neutral and objective that the predictions from the past two decades have been off (far less severe than predicted) by at least a factor of 10, and possibly more.



Well, actually no.

The predictive models so far have be underestimating climate change to date.  There are non-scientists out there doing arm-waving, but if you look at the IPCC Reports and the regional summaries, and then at the step down data analysis from groups such as the University of Washington Climate Actin Group - these are very conservative estimate of sea level rise and ocean warming - which in reality have blown by what was previously predicted.

Only when they change the means of measurements to fit previous predictions. An outfit called the "Climate Action Group" doesn't sound terribly objective.

Northwestie

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #163 on: March 29, 2016, 11:41:20 AM »
My mistake - it's Climate IMPACTS Group.  And it is a muti-disciplined group of scientists.  Rather than the ad-hominen - I'd suggest you read some of this information, analyze it, and then if you see a fault, provide an argument with a science basis.

The "I don't think so" is difficult to take seriously.

Here's a starter for ya: https://cig.uw.edu/resources/special-reports/ps-sok/




bacchi

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #164 on: March 29, 2016, 11:56:23 AM »
I disagree that there's no real debate about climate change. It's a hotly debated topic. Specifically, it seems to those of us who have tried to remain neutral and objective that the predictions from the past two decades have been off (far less severe than predicted) by at least a factor of 10, and possibly more.

There are still people out there that think the planet isn't warming from, say, 100 years ago? Seriously?

Chris22

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #165 on: March 29, 2016, 11:58:50 AM »
My mistake - it's Climate IMPACTS Group.  And it is a muti-disciplined group of scientists.  Rather than the ad-hominen - I'd suggest you read some of this information, analyze it, and then if you see a fault, provide an argument with a science basis.

The "I don't think so" is difficult to take seriously.

Here's a starter for ya: https://cig.uw.edu/resources/special-reports/ps-sok/

So that's a good example.

From here: http://cses.washington.edu/picea/mauger/ps-sok/ps-sok_sec02_climate_2015.pdf page 2-1 to 2-2.

The effects:

-Air temperature increase of 1.3*F from 1895 to 2014
-Nighttime air temp increase of 1.8*F from 1895 to 2014
-Frost-free season has increased by 30 days
-Warm nights more frequent but daytime heat waves unchanged
-Spring precipitation increasing
-Modest increase in heavy rainfall in Western WA


Ummm...so fucking what?  Over more than 100 years it's an increase of less than 2*, nights are warmer, less frost, and slight increase in rainfall.  Where's the badness?  How is this terrible?  Why do I have to vastly change my lifestyle to avoid this shit?

Alex321

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #166 on: March 29, 2016, 12:12:47 PM »
I disagree that there's no real debate about climate change. It's a hotly debated topic. Specifically, it seems to those of us who have tried to remain neutral and objective that the predictions from the past two decades have been off (far less severe than predicted) by at least a factor of 10, and possibly more.

There are still people out there that think the planet isn't warming from, say, 100 years ago? Seriously?

It's been warming since the last ice age (except for the period in the late 60s and 70s when Global Cooling was the big fear). Where have you been?

bacchi

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #167 on: March 29, 2016, 12:16:04 PM »
I disagree that there's no real debate about climate change. It's a hotly debated topic. Specifically, it seems to those of us who have tried to remain neutral and objective that the predictions from the past two decades have been off (far less severe than predicted) by at least a factor of 10, and possibly more.

There are still people out there that think the planet isn't warming from, say, 100 years ago? Seriously?

It's been warming since the last ice age (except for the period in the late 60s and 70s when Global Cooling was the big fear). Where have you been?

Ahhh, good, I thought there were some flat earthers among us.

Can you provide (more than one) links about the "Global Cooling" fear? Peer-reviewed studies would be great, thanks. I'm interested in what was going on then.


Alex321

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #168 on: March 29, 2016, 12:16:59 PM »
I disagree that there's no real debate about climate change. It's a hotly debated topic. Specifically, it seems to those of us who have tried to remain neutral and objective that the predictions from the past two decades have been off (far less severe than predicted) by at least a factor of 10, and possibly more.

There are still people out there that think the planet isn't warming from, say, 100 years ago? Seriously?

It's been warming since the last ice age (except for the period in the late 60s and 70s when Global Cooling was the big fear). Where have you been?

Ahhh, good, I thought there were some flat earthers among us.

Can you provide (more than one) links about the "Global Cooling" fear? Peer-reviewed studies would be great, thanks. I'm interested in what was going on then.

I assume Google works on your browser. Anyone can Google what they want to find and come up with studies to support it.

Northwestie

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #169 on: March 29, 2016, 12:17:20 PM »
Sigh.  These are the basic physical parameters.  The next question to ask is what does this mean for biological and human systems.  Living here in WA here's a few examples:

Less lower elevation snow, colder weather, and day/night termperatures has been leading to increased forest pests - which translates to increased tree death, widespread infestations, lower forest yields, increased fire risk (to biologic and human communities - see last year's fire regime and infrastructure loss).

Dwindling of narrow-niche wildlife and plant species - alpine meadows at Mt. Rainier, high elevation white-bark pine populations (which support a number of wildlife from bears to birds), and possible disappearance of iconic species such as pika, which cannot evolutionarily adapt to this quick (in geologic time) change in conditions.

On the tidal side - Much of Puget Sound's waters have become so acidic from the rise in sea temperature (complex interactions in the Sound - tides, off-shore currents) that small shellfish cannot be planted because the acidity makes it impossible for them to absorb calcium--- thus shellfish growers (such as Taylor Shellfish - the largest) ship their young spawn to yes, HAWAII, to grow for a year before shipping them back at a size that they can withstand the acidity.  Needless to say the native species are not doing well, which has trickle down effects to the estuarine ecosystem.

This is a small handful of examples.   From your dialog you don't seem to think any of this is a big deal -- I can't convince you of that.  But there is no debate among serious scientists that climate change is occurring, that it is human caused, and will have long-lasting effects.

My advice - don't buy shoreline property and especially if you live in the SE, get rid of it now.

TabbyCat

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #170 on: March 29, 2016, 12:19:46 PM »
I've noticed a lot of "we save more than most, but we eat out and live well too" kinds of forum posts recently. I think there are a lot of us torn between saving more and the actual cost-benefit breakdown for us individually to do things a certain way. I commute 40 miles a day, because we wanted to live in a place that felt like home and where we could afford a little more house (another extravagance). I don't enjoy the drive, but it's still what worked best for us.

bacchi

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #171 on: March 29, 2016, 12:24:15 PM »
I disagree that there's no real debate about climate change. It's a hotly debated topic. Specifically, it seems to those of us who have tried to remain neutral and objective that the predictions from the past two decades have been off (far less severe than predicted) by at least a factor of 10, and possibly more.

There are still people out there that think the planet isn't warming from, say, 100 years ago? Seriously?

It's been warming since the last ice age (except for the period in the late 60s and 70s when Global Cooling was the big fear). Where have you been?

Ahhh, good, I thought there were some flat earthers among us.

Can you provide (more than one) links about the "Global Cooling" fear? Peer-reviewed studies would be great, thanks. I'm interested in what was going on then.

I assume Google works on your browser. Anyone can Google what they want to find and come up with studies to support it.

You're the one that claimed that "Global Cooling" was a big fear. Did you make that up? Or can you support your assertion?

Thanks. I'll patiently await your facts to support your claim.

wenchsenior

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #172 on: March 29, 2016, 12:25:02 PM »
Yet ANOTHER fucking thread about to be derailed by another endless and fruitless debate about climate change. Christ on a crutch, haven't we argued this point to death and then continued to beat it into a sticky paste?  And not ONE person's mind has been, or will be, changed.

bacchi

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #173 on: March 29, 2016, 12:27:00 PM »
Yet ANOTHER fucking thread about to be derailed by another endless and fruitless debate about climate change. Christ on a crutch, haven't we argued this point to death and then continued to beat it into a sticky paste?  And not ONE person's mind has been, or will be, changed.

You're right. I took the troll bait. Mea culpa.

Chris22

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #174 on: March 29, 2016, 12:29:37 PM »
I disagree that there's no real debate about climate change. It's a hotly debated topic. Specifically, it seems to those of us who have tried to remain neutral and objective that the predictions from the past two decades have been off (far less severe than predicted) by at least a factor of 10, and possibly more.

There are still people out there that think the planet isn't warming from, say, 100 years ago? Seriously?

It's been warming since the last ice age (except for the period in the late 60s and 70s when Global Cooling was the big fear). Where have you been?

Ahhh, good, I thought there were some flat earthers among us.

Can you provide (more than one) links about the "Global Cooling" fear? Peer-reviewed studies would be great, thanks. I'm interested in what was going on then.

I assume Google works on your browser. Anyone can Google what they want to find and come up with studies to support it.

You're the one that claimed that "Global Cooling" was a big fear. Did you make that up? Or can you support your assertion?

Thanks. I'll patiently await your facts to support your claim.





Etc etc

JLee

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #175 on: March 29, 2016, 12:31:30 PM »
rtrnow - what does it mean to be accountable to those around you? this is a serious question.

Perhaps accountable is not the best word since there are no repercussions short of possible scorn. My point is I try to think about my actions be they environmental or otherwise and how they affect others. There's no real debate anymore about climate change and man's influence on it in the worldwide scientific community. I think if we all took better stock of how we contributed and admitted that to ourselves, we might make different choices. I have in some respects but yes I still travel and own a car. What really set me off in this thread is the idea that "my pollution isn't as bad as Bob's, China's, MMM's, etc so it doesn't matter." I think that's false and a shitty way to look at it. I live in a neighborhood where I see people litter all the time. I don't use that as an excuse to through trash out the car window. It seems the same argument to me.

Except the bolded is basically true.  A modern car, for instance, basically emits cleaner air than it takes in.  So I'm sick of being vilified for it because it's fashionable or image-based.  It's screaming at a guy who spilled his glass of ice water on the Titanic right after it crashed into the iceberg.  And that's assuming there really is a catastrophe, which I've been hearing about for literally 25+ years and have yet to see any ill effects from.  Real POLLUTION, like dumping chemicals and trash into the air/water/ground, yes, I'm all for fixing that.  But screaming about someone who drives a modern emissions controlled SUV instead of a Prius or a Leaf, come on, it's window dressing, it's nitpicking, and it's tiresome.

Interestingly enough, a Ford SVT Raptor (the big bad offroad super-truck) emits fewer pollutants per mile than a Honda Fit.

Since so many people here encourage the use of old "beaters" (and also don't repair emissions failures if they aren't required for registration), my SUV (built to California ultra low emissions standards) is probably far, far cleaner than many "mustachian" cars present on the forum.  Somewhat ironic, isn't it?

EnjoyIt

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #176 on: March 29, 2016, 12:36:31 PM »
That's why shit like this gets locked on bogleheads.  Non actionable pandering.  This thread is no better than the SS thread.  We need to start another about the true religion and we will have all 3 topics wasting our time.

rtrnow

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #177 on: March 29, 2016, 12:38:34 PM »
rtrnow - what does it mean to be accountable to those around you? this is a serious question.

Perhaps accountable is not the best word since there are no repercussions short of possible scorn. My point is I try to think about my actions be they environmental or otherwise and how they affect others. There's no real debate anymore about climate change and man's influence on it in the worldwide scientific community. I think if we all took better stock of how we contributed and admitted that to ourselves, we might make different choices. I have in some respects but yes I still travel and own a car. What really set me off in this thread is the idea that "my pollution isn't as bad as Bob's, China's, MMM's, etc so it doesn't matter." I think that's false and a shitty way to look at it. I live in a neighborhood where I see people litter all the time. I don't use that as an excuse to through trash out the car window. It seems the same argument to me.

Except the bolded is basically true.  A modern car, for instance, basically emits cleaner air than it takes in.  So I'm sick of being vilified for it because it's fashionable or image-based.  It's screaming at a guy who spilled his glass of ice water on the Titanic right after it crashed into the iceberg.  And that's assuming there really is a catastrophe, which I've been hearing about for literally 25+ years and have yet to see any ill effects from.  Real POLLUTION, like dumping chemicals and trash into the air/water/ground, yes, I'm all for fixing that.  But screaming about someone who drives a modern emissions controlled SUV instead of a Prius or a Leaf, come on, it's window dressing, it's nitpicking, and it's tiresome.

Interestingly enough, a Ford SVT Raptor (the big bad offroad super-truck) emits fewer pollutants per mile than a Honda Fit.

Since so many people here encourage the use of old "beaters" (and also don't repair emissions failures if they aren't required for registration), my SUV (built to California ultra low emissions standards) is probably far, far cleaner than many "mustachian" cars present on the forum.  Somewhat ironic, isn't it?

Not really. The test ignored CO2. It's great that it produces less of other pollutants but CO2 emissions can't just be ignored.

Midwest

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #178 on: March 29, 2016, 12:39:20 PM »
rtrnow - what does it mean to be accountable to those around you? this is a serious question.

Perhaps accountable is not the best word since there are no repercussions short of possible scorn. My point is I try to think about my actions be they environmental or otherwise and how they affect others. There's no real debate anymore about climate change and man's influence on it in the worldwide scientific community. I think if we all took better stock of how we contributed and admitted that to ourselves, we might make different choices. I have in some respects but yes I still travel and own a car. What really set me off in this thread is the idea that "my pollution isn't as bad as Bob's, China's, MMM's, etc so it doesn't matter." I think that's false and a shitty way to look at it. I live in a neighborhood where I see people litter all the time. I don't use that as an excuse to through trash out the car window. It seems the same argument to me.

Except the bolded is basically true.  A modern car, for instance, basically emits cleaner air than it takes in.  So I'm sick of being vilified for it because it's fashionable or image-based.  It's screaming at a guy who spilled his glass of ice water on the Titanic right after it crashed into the iceberg.  And that's assuming there really is a catastrophe, which I've been hearing about for literally 25+ years and have yet to see any ill effects from.  Real POLLUTION, like dumping chemicals and trash into the air/water/ground, yes, I'm all for fixing that.  But screaming about someone who drives a modern emissions controlled SUV instead of a Prius or a Leaf, come on, it's window dressing, it's nitpicking, and it's tiresome.

Interestingly enough, a Ford SVT Raptor (the big bad offroad super-truck) emits fewer pollutants per mile than a Honda Fit.

Since so many people here encourage the use of old "beaters" (and also don't repair emissions failures if they aren't required for registration), my SUV (built to California ultra low emissions standards) is probably far, far cleaner than many "mustachian" cars present on the forum.  Somewhat ironic, isn't it?

JLee - I'll agree that appearances can be deceiving with regard to resource usage and vehicles.  One thing your analysis may fail to consider - There are substantial resources expended in producing the car to begin with.  It's not just the emissions that are impacting the environment. 

Chris22

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #179 on: March 29, 2016, 12:46:36 PM »
rtrnow - what does it mean to be accountable to those around you? this is a serious question.

Perhaps accountable is not the best word since there are no repercussions short of possible scorn. My point is I try to think about my actions be they environmental or otherwise and how they affect others. There's no real debate anymore about climate change and man's influence on it in the worldwide scientific community. I think if we all took better stock of how we contributed and admitted that to ourselves, we might make different choices. I have in some respects but yes I still travel and own a car. What really set me off in this thread is the idea that "my pollution isn't as bad as Bob's, China's, MMM's, etc so it doesn't matter." I think that's false and a shitty way to look at it. I live in a neighborhood where I see people litter all the time. I don't use that as an excuse to through trash out the car window. It seems the same argument to me.

Except the bolded is basically true.  A modern car, for instance, basically emits cleaner air than it takes in.  So I'm sick of being vilified for it because it's fashionable or image-based.  It's screaming at a guy who spilled his glass of ice water on the Titanic right after it crashed into the iceberg.  And that's assuming there really is a catastrophe, which I've been hearing about for literally 25+ years and have yet to see any ill effects from.  Real POLLUTION, like dumping chemicals and trash into the air/water/ground, yes, I'm all for fixing that.  But screaming about someone who drives a modern emissions controlled SUV instead of a Prius or a Leaf, come on, it's window dressing, it's nitpicking, and it's tiresome.

Interestingly enough, a Ford SVT Raptor (the big bad offroad super-truck) emits fewer pollutants per mile than a Honda Fit.

Since so many people here encourage the use of old "beaters" (and also don't repair emissions failures if they aren't required for registration), my SUV (built to California ultra low emissions standards) is probably far, far cleaner than many "mustachian" cars present on the forum.  Somewhat ironic, isn't it?

Not really. The test ignored CO2. It's great that it produces less of other pollutants but CO2 emissions can't just be ignored.

Not true.  MMM told me that can be fixed simply by buying indulgences, oops, I mean carbon credits.

Or does that work only for MMM-approved activities?

rtrnow

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #180 on: March 29, 2016, 12:52:40 PM »
rtrnow - what does it mean to be accountable to those around you? this is a serious question.

Perhaps accountable is not the best word since there are no repercussions short of possible scorn. My point is I try to think about my actions be they environmental or otherwise and how they affect others. There's no real debate anymore about climate change and man's influence on it in the worldwide scientific community. I think if we all took better stock of how we contributed and admitted that to ourselves, we might make different choices. I have in some respects but yes I still travel and own a car. What really set me off in this thread is the idea that "my pollution isn't as bad as Bob's, China's, MMM's, etc so it doesn't matter." I think that's false and a shitty way to look at it. I live in a neighborhood where I see people litter all the time. I don't use that as an excuse to through trash out the car window. It seems the same argument to me.

Except the bolded is basically true.  A modern car, for instance, basically emits cleaner air than it takes in.  So I'm sick of being vilified for it because it's fashionable or image-based.  It's screaming at a guy who spilled his glass of ice water on the Titanic right after it crashed into the iceberg.  And that's assuming there really is a catastrophe, which I've been hearing about for literally 25+ years and have yet to see any ill effects from.  Real POLLUTION, like dumping chemicals and trash into the air/water/ground, yes, I'm all for fixing that.  But screaming about someone who drives a modern emissions controlled SUV instead of a Prius or a Leaf, come on, it's window dressing, it's nitpicking, and it's tiresome.

Interestingly enough, a Ford SVT Raptor (the big bad offroad super-truck) emits fewer pollutants per mile than a Honda Fit.

Since so many people here encourage the use of old "beaters" (and also don't repair emissions failures if they aren't required for registration), my SUV (built to California ultra low emissions standards) is probably far, far cleaner than many "mustachian" cars present on the forum.  Somewhat ironic, isn't it?

Not really. The test ignored CO2. It's great that it produces less of other pollutants but CO2 emissions can't just be ignored.

Not true.  MMM told me that can be fixed simply by buying indulgences, oops, I mean carbon credits.

Or does that work only for MMM-approved activities?

 You're just being obtuse and/or trolling.

Chris22

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #181 on: March 29, 2016, 12:55:37 PM »
rtrnow - what does it mean to be accountable to those around you? this is a serious question.

Perhaps accountable is not the best word since there are no repercussions short of possible scorn. My point is I try to think about my actions be they environmental or otherwise and how they affect others. There's no real debate anymore about climate change and man's influence on it in the worldwide scientific community. I think if we all took better stock of how we contributed and admitted that to ourselves, we might make different choices. I have in some respects but yes I still travel and own a car. What really set me off in this thread is the idea that "my pollution isn't as bad as Bob's, China's, MMM's, etc so it doesn't matter." I think that's false and a shitty way to look at it. I live in a neighborhood where I see people litter all the time. I don't use that as an excuse to through trash out the car window. It seems the same argument to me.

Except the bolded is basically true.  A modern car, for instance, basically emits cleaner air than it takes in.  So I'm sick of being vilified for it because it's fashionable or image-based.  It's screaming at a guy who spilled his glass of ice water on the Titanic right after it crashed into the iceberg.  And that's assuming there really is a catastrophe, which I've been hearing about for literally 25+ years and have yet to see any ill effects from.  Real POLLUTION, like dumping chemicals and trash into the air/water/ground, yes, I'm all for fixing that.  But screaming about someone who drives a modern emissions controlled SUV instead of a Prius or a Leaf, come on, it's window dressing, it's nitpicking, and it's tiresome.

Interestingly enough, a Ford SVT Raptor (the big bad offroad super-truck) emits fewer pollutants per mile than a Honda Fit.

Since so many people here encourage the use of old "beaters" (and also don't repair emissions failures if they aren't required for registration), my SUV (built to California ultra low emissions standards) is probably far, far cleaner than many "mustachian" cars present on the forum.  Somewhat ironic, isn't it?

Not really. The test ignored CO2. It's great that it produces less of other pollutants but CO2 emissions can't just be ignored.

Not true.  MMM told me that can be fixed simply by buying indulgences, oops, I mean carbon credits.

Or does that work only for MMM-approved activities?

 You're just being obtuse and/or trolling.

How do you figure?  Right from MMM's mouth.

Alex321

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #182 on: March 29, 2016, 01:00:11 PM »
rtrnow - what does it mean to be accountable to those around you? this is a serious question.

Perhaps accountable is not the best word since there are no repercussions short of possible scorn. My point is I try to think about my actions be they environmental or otherwise and how they affect others. There's no real debate anymore about climate change and man's influence on it in the worldwide scientific community. I think if we all took better stock of how we contributed and admitted that to ourselves, we might make different choices. I have in some respects but yes I still travel and own a car. What really set me off in this thread is the idea that "my pollution isn't as bad as Bob's, China's, MMM's, etc so it doesn't matter." I think that's false and a shitty way to look at it. I live in a neighborhood where I see people litter all the time. I don't use that as an excuse to through trash out the car window. It seems the same argument to me.

Except the bolded is basically true.  A modern car, for instance, basically emits cleaner air than it takes in.  So I'm sick of being vilified for it because it's fashionable or image-based.  It's screaming at a guy who spilled his glass of ice water on the Titanic right after it crashed into the iceberg.  And that's assuming there really is a catastrophe, which I've been hearing about for literally 25+ years and have yet to see any ill effects from.  Real POLLUTION, like dumping chemicals and trash into the air/water/ground, yes, I'm all for fixing that.  But screaming about someone who drives a modern emissions controlled SUV instead of a Prius or a Leaf, come on, it's window dressing, it's nitpicking, and it's tiresome.

Interestingly enough, a Ford SVT Raptor (the big bad offroad super-truck) emits fewer pollutants per mile than a Honda Fit.

Since so many people here encourage the use of old "beaters" (and also don't repair emissions failures if they aren't required for registration), my SUV (built to California ultra low emissions standards) is probably far, far cleaner than many "mustachian" cars present on the forum.  Somewhat ironic, isn't it?

Not really. The test ignored CO2. It's great that it produces less of other pollutants but CO2 emissions can't just be ignored.

Not true.  MMM told me that can be fixed simply by buying indulgences, oops, I mean carbon credits.

Or does that work only for MMM-approved activities?

 You're just being obtuse and/or trolling.

I think that he may be having some fun with you, but he's absolutely right that the "carbon credits" idea is a total fraud. To the degree--and yes, it's debatable--that atmospheric carbon dioxide produced by burning fossil fuels is a problem, you most certainly can't solve it by planting an extra tree. Trees, even old trees, are all part of surface carbon, for lack of a better term.

Chris22

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #183 on: March 29, 2016, 01:07:05 PM »
rtrnow - what does it mean to be accountable to those around you? this is a serious question.

Perhaps accountable is not the best word since there are no repercussions short of possible scorn. My point is I try to think about my actions be they environmental or otherwise and how they affect others. There's no real debate anymore about climate change and man's influence on it in the worldwide scientific community. I think if we all took better stock of how we contributed and admitted that to ourselves, we might make different choices. I have in some respects but yes I still travel and own a car. What really set me off in this thread is the idea that "my pollution isn't as bad as Bob's, China's, MMM's, etc so it doesn't matter." I think that's false and a shitty way to look at it. I live in a neighborhood where I see people litter all the time. I don't use that as an excuse to through trash out the car window. It seems the same argument to me.

Except the bolded is basically true.  A modern car, for instance, basically emits cleaner air than it takes in.  So I'm sick of being vilified for it because it's fashionable or image-based.  It's screaming at a guy who spilled his glass of ice water on the Titanic right after it crashed into the iceberg.  And that's assuming there really is a catastrophe, which I've been hearing about for literally 25+ years and have yet to see any ill effects from.  Real POLLUTION, like dumping chemicals and trash into the air/water/ground, yes, I'm all for fixing that.  But screaming about someone who drives a modern emissions controlled SUV instead of a Prius or a Leaf, come on, it's window dressing, it's nitpicking, and it's tiresome.

Interestingly enough, a Ford SVT Raptor (the big bad offroad super-truck) emits fewer pollutants per mile than a Honda Fit.

Since so many people here encourage the use of old "beaters" (and also don't repair emissions failures if they aren't required for registration), my SUV (built to California ultra low emissions standards) is probably far, far cleaner than many "mustachian" cars present on the forum.  Somewhat ironic, isn't it?

Not really. The test ignored CO2. It's great that it produces less of other pollutants but CO2 emissions can't just be ignored.

Not true.  MMM told me that can be fixed simply by buying indulgences, oops, I mean carbon credits.

Or does that work only for MMM-approved activities?

 You're just being obtuse and/or trolling.

I think that he may be having some fun with you, but he's absolutely right that the "carbon credits" idea is a total fraud.

AND MMM-advocated.

Like I said, can it only fix things that MMM and his followers find to be acceptable?  Or can it fix mortal sins like SUV or powerboat use?  The whole thing is very Animal-Farm-esque.  Four cylinders good, 2 legs better.

JLee

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #184 on: March 29, 2016, 01:14:07 PM »
rtrnow - what does it mean to be accountable to those around you? this is a serious question.

Perhaps accountable is not the best word since there are no repercussions short of possible scorn. My point is I try to think about my actions be they environmental or otherwise and how they affect others. There's no real debate anymore about climate change and man's influence on it in the worldwide scientific community. I think if we all took better stock of how we contributed and admitted that to ourselves, we might make different choices. I have in some respects but yes I still travel and own a car. What really set me off in this thread is the idea that "my pollution isn't as bad as Bob's, China's, MMM's, etc so it doesn't matter." I think that's false and a shitty way to look at it. I live in a neighborhood where I see people litter all the time. I don't use that as an excuse to through trash out the car window. It seems the same argument to me.

Except the bolded is basically true.  A modern car, for instance, basically emits cleaner air than it takes in.  So I'm sick of being vilified for it because it's fashionable or image-based.  It's screaming at a guy who spilled his glass of ice water on the Titanic right after it crashed into the iceberg.  And that's assuming there really is a catastrophe, which I've been hearing about for literally 25+ years and have yet to see any ill effects from.  Real POLLUTION, like dumping chemicals and trash into the air/water/ground, yes, I'm all for fixing that.  But screaming about someone who drives a modern emissions controlled SUV instead of a Prius or a Leaf, come on, it's window dressing, it's nitpicking, and it's tiresome.

Interestingly enough, a Ford SVT Raptor (the big bad offroad super-truck) emits fewer pollutants per mile than a Honda Fit.

Since so many people here encourage the use of old "beaters" (and also don't repair emissions failures if they aren't required for registration), my SUV (built to California ultra low emissions standards) is probably far, far cleaner than many "mustachian" cars present on the forum.  Somewhat ironic, isn't it?

JLee - I'll agree that appearances can be deceiving with regard to resource usage and vehicles.  One thing your analysis may fail to consider - There are substantial resources expended in producing the car to begin with.  It's not just the emissions that are impacting the environment.

This is true, but as I exclusively buy used vehicles the production was already a sunk cost.

Alex321

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #185 on: March 29, 2016, 01:15:14 PM »
Speaking of carbon credits, did anyone call out MMM on that tripe in the comments? I didn't bother reading however many hundreds of comments there were.

Chris22

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #186 on: March 29, 2016, 01:19:00 PM »
Speaking of carbon credits, did anyone call out MMM on that tripe in the comments? I didn't bother reading however many hundreds of comments there were.

No idea.  He heavily moderates the comments ("wants to control the message") which means the comments are worthless to me.  I rarely read them anymore since they're basically a circle-jerk, or at best, softball questions that he answers easily. 

Miskatonic

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #187 on: March 29, 2016, 01:44:20 PM »
Pictures of the cover of TIME Magazine can be used as evidence now? I'll let all my academic friends know - they'll be thrilled!

Tom Bri

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #188 on: March 29, 2016, 02:12:26 PM »
Pictures of the cover of TIME Magazine can be used as evidence now? I'll let all my academic friends know - they'll be thrilled!
It was quite the thing back then. I know, having lived through it and reading books about the danger at the time. If you are too young to remember that, it is easy enough to look up. You have strong opinions. That's fine, but don't assume those who disagree with you are ignorant. Take a longer look back at historical patterns, and see if today really is anything new.

Going back in time, there have been repeated changes, global cooling, global warming, back and forth. There certainly has been warming recently, both medium-term, since the Little Ice Age and more recently after the big freeze in the 60s/70s. The question is, how significant is this historically. We know, to a certain degree, that the climate was warmer than now during the Minoan period, and later in the Roman period. Then it got a lot cooler for a while, and now it is warming a bit again. This is all widely known, and easy information to find from reliable academic sources.


Northwestie

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #189 on: March 29, 2016, 02:19:29 PM »
I think I'll step away from the Trump rally, flat-earth society, bat-shit crazy thing-this-has-turned-into and get back to planet earth.  Carry on.

Midwest

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #190 on: March 29, 2016, 02:23:34 PM »
I think I'll step away from the Trump rally, flat-earth society, bat-shit crazy thing-this-has-turned-into and get back to planet earth.  Carry on.

Northwestie - FWIW, I appreciated the actual sources provided.  Haven't had a chance to look in depth.

TRBeck

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #191 on: March 29, 2016, 02:24:28 PM »
Pictures of the cover of TIME Magazine can be used as evidence now? I'll let all my academic friends know - they'll be thrilled!
It was quite the thing back then. I know, having lived through it and reading books about the danger at the time. If you are too young to remember that, it is easy enough to look up. You have strong opinions. That's fine, but don't assume those who disagree with you are ignorant. Take a longer look back at historical patterns, and see if today really is anything new.

Going back in time, there have been repeated changes, global cooling, global warming, back and forth. There certainly has been warming recently, both medium-term, since the Little Ice Age and more recently after the big freeze in the 60s/70s. The question is, how significant is this historically. We know, to a certain degree, that the climate was warmer than now during the Minoan period, and later in the Roman period. Then it got a lot cooler for a while, and now it is warming a bit again. This is all widely known, and easy information to find from reliable academic sources.
http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/pdf/10.1175/2008BAMS2370.1

"In fact, emphasis on greenhouse
warming dominated the scientific literature even
then. The research enterprise that grew in response
to the questions articulated by Bryson and others,
while considering the forces responsible for cooling,
quickly converged on the view that greenhouse
warming was likely to dominate on time scales that
would be significant to human societies (Charney
et al. 1979)."
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 02:48:30 PM by TRBeck »

Miskatonic

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #192 on: March 29, 2016, 02:40:58 PM »
Pictures of the cover of TIME Magazine can be used as evidence now? I'll let all my academic friends know - they'll be thrilled!
It was quite the thing back then. I know, having lived through it and reading books about the danger at the time. If you are too young to remember that, it is easy enough to look up. You have strong opinions. That's fine, but don't assume those who disagree with you are ignorant. Take a longer look back at historical patterns, and see if today really is anything new.

Going back in time, there have been repeated changes, global cooling, global warming, back and forth. There certainly has been warming recently, both medium-term, since the Little Ice Age and more recently after the big freeze in the 60s/70s. The question is, how significant is this historically. We know, to a certain degree, that the climate was warmer than now during the Minoan period, and later in the Roman period. Then it got a lot cooler for a while, and now it is warming a bit again. This is all widely known, and easy information to find from reliable academic sources.

Okay. Magazine covers still aren't reliable evidence.

eljefe-speaks

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #193 on: March 29, 2016, 02:43:46 PM »
It's actually a little bit better now that he's "come out" in some respects, because I can stop being put off by his goofy-ass math and instead just ignore that particular argument or chalk it up to his tree-hugging frenzy.

He "came out" as an environmentalist as far back as 4/11/11. It's one of the reasons I like his blog so much.

Excerpt from Getting Started #2 – The Higher Cause, 4/11/11:

"There are many reasons why the act of going to a store and Buying Yourself A New Manufactured Product should hurt a little bit. And while we’re all still going to do it, it should be done carefully and after some thought, and after considering the alternatives.

One big reason is The Earth. Many of us feel some sort of love for our planet and a desire to preserve as much as possible of its healthy ecosystem for the rest of our fellow plants and animals to enjoy."
 

Chris22

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #194 on: March 29, 2016, 02:45:18 PM »
Pictures of the cover of TIME Magazine can be used as evidence now? I'll let all my academic friends know - they'll be thrilled!
It was quite the thing back then. I know, having lived through it and reading books about the danger at the time. If you are too young to remember that, it is easy enough to look up. You have strong opinions. That's fine, but don't assume those who disagree with you are ignorant. Take a longer look back at historical patterns, and see if today really is anything new.

Going back in time, there have been repeated changes, global cooling, global warming, back and forth. There certainly has been warming recently, both medium-term, since the Little Ice Age and more recently after the big freeze in the 60s/70s. The question is, how significant is this historically. We know, to a certain degree, that the climate was warmer than now during the Minoan period, and later in the Roman period. Then it got a lot cooler for a while, and now it is warming a bit again. This is all widely known, and easy information to find from reliable academic sources.

Okay. Magazine covers still aren't reliable evidence.

Clearly they're not reliable evidence of the phenomena, but they are evidence it was a popular, widely-held concern at that time. 

Mikenost12

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #195 on: March 29, 2016, 02:51:32 PM »
http://www.skepticalscience.com/ice-age-predictions-in-1970s.htm

I wish the entire episode of cosmos explaining carbon storage, warming and cooling through trapped carbon over planets history, venus atmosphere was linkable. At this point it takes almost intentional ignorance to not be convinced it is occurring and man made. Alot of very rich people like the Koch Bothers (check out Forbes list this year) make alot of money off extraction and can buy legistlation and sow doubt. If that means you should or shouldn't alter your life is a moral choice up to you

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/dark-money-funds-climate-change-denial-effort/
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 03:21:51 PM by Mikenost12 »

Cranky

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #196 on: March 29, 2016, 03:15:54 PM »
Oh, those wacky scientists!

Alex321

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #197 on: March 29, 2016, 03:27:46 PM »
http://www.skepticalscience.com/ice-age-predictions-in-1970s.htm

I wish the entire episode of cosmos explaining carbon storage, warming and cooling through trapped carbon over planets history, venus atmosphere was linkable. At this point it takes almost intentional ignorance to not be convinced it is occurring and man made. Alot of very rich people like the Koch Bothers (check out Forbes list this year) make alot of money off extraction and can buy legistlation and sow doubt. If that means you should or shouldn't alter your life is a moral choice up to you

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/dark-money-funds-climate-change-denial-effort/

Eh, there's plenty of money to be made on either side. Government grants are not distributed equally .

Rightflyer

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #198 on: March 29, 2016, 03:49:28 PM »
Serious question for everyone.

When you look at the graph below (yes, taken from Wikipedia) does it really seem possible that anthropogenic climate change is the only possible answer?

Are we overstating our importance and forgetting just how little time we've been around.


Miskatonic

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Re: I Probably Need to be Kicked Out of the Group
« Reply #199 on: March 29, 2016, 04:00:12 PM »
I think Wikipedia is a wonderful tool, but when it comes to controversial topics its usefulness is nonexistent.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!