Author Topic: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!  (Read 34819 times)

starguru

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #50 on: October 26, 2016, 08:52:09 AM »
How do I count income from RSU vesting or ESPP events?  They arent really investment income.

Edit: What is the "Share" column in the Accounts page?
Edit: Not sure what the correct way to enter a property with a mortgage is.

Hi starguru, sorry it's not more clear as to what to do regarding a mortgage! Hopefully I can clear it up for you.

The best way to represent a home with a mortgage would be to first create a new Account with the type of property. Then, since you don't own the home outright, you would want to create a second Account with a type of loan.

Then when you go to create a new monthly Entry, you can enter the values for those two accounts for the month in question. For the Account with the type of property, put in the total estimated value of your home. For example, if realtor.com says your house is worth $340k, enter that amount. Next in the second Account with the type of loan, enter in the outstanding balance that is remaining on the mortgage.

Now you will have two accounts, one being an asset (albeit illiquid) and the other being a liability (the mortgage). The difference between the two is your equity in the house.

You are also going to want to represent the house as an Expense as well if you are still paying a monthly mortgage.

It's a little confusing but it starts to make sense once its all modeled out.

Regarding the "Share" pie chart, I did away with it in the most recent build tonight. It initially showed what percent an Account/Expense/Income made of the most recent Entry. Not the most useful or clear metric. I've had other people stumped by what it means so I removed it for the time being.

Regarding income from RSU vesting or ESPP events, if you are actively withdrawing from them, I would say to add them as an Income and record how much you are withdrawing as income each month in the Entries. However, if you are not, I would classify them as an Account (type asset).

For example, I track my 401k as an Asset as I am not withdrawing from it even though it is technically making me money via interest. Those gains in interest are not being withdrawn so I don't consider it income and the gains are reflected in the month over month entries.

Hope that helped clear up some confusion!

Hey thanx for replying.  Yeah I realized "Share" meant "Percent of Total" after I asked. 

It seems to me that for tracking income I need to enter monthly income for the snapshot, which means I need to go back and see how much DW and I got paid, and add it up.  I considered including RSU and ESPP as income in the months they apply.  I also considered not counting income at all, and just tracking value of investment accounts/assets.  Any thoughts on that?   Why do we need to track income?

Also I think you did a great job with this web app.  Very impressive for someone who doesn't do this for a living.  I want to ask a hard question though, which is what value is this adding that something like Personal Capital does not already add?  If you have going on a dozen accounts, plus credit, plus mortgage, its a lot of work to enter all this stuff, with Personal Capital I don't have to do anything.

frugledoc

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #51 on: October 26, 2016, 09:38:53 AM »
I never tracked income before but this has inspired me to try it out of curiosity as my passive income has increased a lot over the last couple of years

frugledoc

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #52 on: October 26, 2016, 10:00:28 AM »
Just tried to make an entry but it wil only let you save if you put a value in every field.  I just wanted to put my wage for the month in and fill out the rest later

Roboturner

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #53 on: October 26, 2016, 10:06:14 AM »
Just tried to make an entry but it wil only let you save if you put a value in every field.  I just wanted to put my wage for the month in and fill out the rest later

Yeah this bugged me a bit as well, would be nice if the auto setting was taken from the month prior - so accounts that haven't changed value will remain stagnant without needing input

Orvell

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #54 on: October 26, 2016, 10:43:35 AM »
This seems super neat! Playing with it now. :)
Are people just putting in their post-tax income? I didn't see a tax section.

Thanks for making this!

Threshkin

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #55 on: October 26, 2016, 11:03:53 AM »
Signed up.  Will enter data soon.

I entered my data.  Nice, clean UI.  Functionality is a little old school by requiring you to go into a separate edit screen to modify data.  In-place editing would be better.

The underlying math is a little opaque.  "How this is calculated." hover text or popup windows would help.

The Financial Independence Locale Index feature threw me for a bit.  It displayed Lugano Switzerland when I had entered a different home city.  I had to think for a while to figure it out.  (Non-intuitive) It would be better if it defaulted to the home city and offered an option to see a different location.  Even better would be to let the user modify this field.  For example, select a city and see how years to FI changes. 

You might want to investigate a collaboration with another new site being discussed on MMM.  www.theearthawaits.com The two sites might complement each other nicely.

Here is the URL for the message thread.  http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/mustachians-interested-in-retiring-abroad-%28or-slow-travel%29/

« Last Edit: October 26, 2016, 11:09:53 AM by Threshkin »

Threshkin

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #56 on: October 26, 2016, 11:06:51 AM »
Just tried to make an entry but it wil only let you save if you put a value in every field.  I just wanted to put my wage for the month in and fill out the rest later

Yeah this bugged me a bit as well, would be nice if the auto setting was taken from the month prior - so accounts that haven't changed value will remain stagnant without needing input

I had a similar problem adding my DW's income.  She is paid on commission.  Sales are large and infrequent so some months she has no income.  Fields should allow a zero value.

atribecalledquest

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #57 on: October 26, 2016, 11:16:35 AM »
Hey thanx for replying.  Yeah I realized "Share" meant "Percent of Total" after I asked. 

It seems to me that for tracking income I need to enter monthly income for the snapshot, which means I need to go back and see how much DW and I got paid, and add it up.  I considered including RSU and ESPP as income in the months they apply.  I also considered not counting income at all, and just tracking value of investment accounts/assets.  Any thoughts on that?   Why do we need to track income?

Also I think you did a great job with this web app.  Very impressive for someone who doesn't do this for a living.  I want to ask a hard question though, which is what value is this adding that something like Personal Capital does not already add?  If you have going on a dozen accounts, plus credit, plus mortgage, its a lot of work to enter all this stuff, with Personal Capital I don't have to do anything.

All great and fair questions! I believe what sets trackFI apart from the likes of Personal Capital is that trackFI is solely focused and built for the financial independence crowd. The tool is specific in that regard. Personal Capital does not offer important and fun metrics like Years til FI, Savings Rate, Current Years Saved and the Financial Independence Locale Index.

Additionally, as time goes on, I also plan to build out more tools and metrics and charts that are specific to the financial independence crowd. In future phases, I also plan on building out features that allow users (if they chose to) to create public facing profiles where they can surface the information they want. I want to provide users the means to also be able to blog alongside their entries and encourage discussions and encouragement between users. The dashboard is phase 1. In future phases, I want to shape the platform so that it provides motivation and encouragement to stick with the goal of financial independence. It's a long road, and I feel we could all use some help in that regard.

Another major differentiating factor is that not all people are comfortable handing over their financial institutions login credentials to a 3rd party. In order for Personal Capital to work, you have to hand over all your usernames/passwords to all your financial accounts to them.

I don't mean to drone on, but another benefit of trackFI and the more manual approach is that you are forced to sit down and actually look at the data critically. With more automated processes, you become removed from the data and things might slip through the cracks.

With that said, trackFI might not be a good fit for a majority of people. But I believe it is a great fit for those who are actively engineering their ways towards FI.

Regarding why you would want to track income, the data you provide for incomes is directly used to generate the time til FI metric and to calculate your savings rate. The first metric being much more a vanity feel good metric, used primarily for encouragement purposes and the latter being a cornerstone of financial independence. One of the mantras of FI is "It's not what you earn, its what you save", which is exactly what the savings rate metric gets at.

With that said, I totally get the frustration of manually entering information and I am working through ways to get some sort of CSV importing integrated. I don't want to say never, but I am 99.999% sure that trackFI will never integrate directly with financial institutions for a plethora of reasons, security being at the forefront.

atribecalledquest

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #58 on: October 26, 2016, 11:25:05 AM »
Just tried to make an entry but it wil only let you save if you put a value in every field.  I just wanted to put my wage for the month in and fill out the rest later

Yeah this bugged me a bit as well, would be nice if the auto setting was taken from the month prior - so accounts that haven't changed value will remain stagnant without needing input

I had a similar problem adding my DW's income.  She is paid on commission.  Sales are large and infrequent so some months she has no income.  Fields should allow a zero value.

Hi Threshkin! Thanks for trying out trackFI. Entries should allow values to be entered as 0. The only validation on those fields are that the value cannot be negative and must be a number. Let me know if you cannot enter 0 for an income in an entry and I'll take a close look!

Another avenue you could pursue is that if you do not have an income for a particular month, you can remove the entry via the "Remove" button.



atribecalledquest

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #59 on: October 26, 2016, 11:29:51 AM »
Signed up.  Will enter data soon.

I entered my data.  Nice, clean UI.  Functionality is a little old school by requiring you to go into a separate edit screen to modify data.  In-place editing would be better.

The underlying math is a little opaque.  "How this is calculated." hover text or popup windows would help.

The Financial Independence Locale Index feature threw me for a bit.  It displayed Lugano Switzerland when I had entered a different home city.  I had to think for a while to figure it out.  (Non-intuitive) It would be better if it defaulted to the home city and offered an option to see a different location.  Even better would be to let the user modify this field.  For example, select a city and see how years to FI changes. 

You might want to investigate a collaboration with another new site being discussed on MMM.  www.theearthawaits.com The two sites might complement each other nicely.

Here is the URL for the message thread.  http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/mustachians-interested-in-retiring-abroad-%28or-slow-travel%29/

Both fantastic suggestions! I added them to my backlog, hopefully have them rolled out in the next couple of days!

Thanks for the feedback and for the link to the theearthawaits as well

relaxednature

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #60 on: October 26, 2016, 11:31:55 AM »
First of all great job, I'm amazed at the ease of use and speed of the site.

Was curious to how you calculate "years till FI" is that purely based on expenses to net worth and 4% rule?  I keep the same data tracked in a pretty complex spreadsheet but also have different returns of values to say cash compared to equities, so in my spreadsheet I get a number like .09 months remaining where in your site I get -1.23 years, just wondering if you have any plans to allow change of the variables for calculating FI?

Thanks and again great job.

Threshkin

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #61 on: October 26, 2016, 11:33:50 AM »
...snip...
I want to ask a hard question though, which is what value is this adding that something like Personal Capital does not already add?  If you have going on a dozen accounts, plus credit, plus mortgage, its a lot of work to enter all this stuff, with Personal Capital I don't have to do anything.

...snip...
Another major differentiating factor is that not all people are comfortable handing over their financial institutions login credentials to a 3rd party. In order for Personal Capital to work, you have to hand over all your usernames/passwords to all your financial accounts to them.

...snip...

I don't see manual data entry as a problem.  There is a significant user security risk and a site developer liability risk if you store financial login credentials in your site.  I was actually very pleased that you were not expecting me to enter my login info.  I would not have done that.

Threshkin

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #62 on: October 26, 2016, 11:40:11 AM »
Just tried to make an entry but it wil only let you save if you put a value in every field.  I just wanted to put my wage for the month in and fill out the rest later

Yeah this bugged me a bit as well, would be nice if the auto setting was taken from the month prior - so accounts that haven't changed value will remain stagnant without needing input

I had a similar problem adding my DW's income.  She is paid on commission.  Sales are large and infrequent so some months she has no income.  Fields should allow a zero value.

Hi Threshkin! Thanks for trying out trackFI. Entries should allow values to be entered as 0. The only validation on those fields are that the value cannot be negative and must be a number. Let me know if you cannot enter 0 for an income in an entry and I'll take a close look!

Another avenue you could pursue is that if you do not have an income for a particular month, you can remove the entry via the "Remove" button.


I tried it again with a new entry.  The actual problem is that if you leave a field blank you get an error.  If I enter a "0" it is happy.  Perhaps add a default value?

atribecalledquest

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #63 on: October 26, 2016, 11:45:49 AM »
...snip...
I want to ask a hard question though, which is what value is this adding that something like Personal Capital does not already add?  If you have going on a dozen accounts, plus credit, plus mortgage, its a lot of work to enter all this stuff, with Personal Capital I don't have to do anything.

...snip...
Another major differentiating factor is that not all people are comfortable handing over their financial institutions login credentials to a 3rd party. In order for Personal Capital to work, you have to hand over all your usernames/passwords to all your financial accounts to them.

...snip...

I don't see manual data entry as a problem.  There is a significant user security risk and a site developer liability risk if you store financial login credentials in your site.  I was actually very pleased that you were not expecting me to enter my login info.  I would not have done that.

I literally would not be able to sleep at night if I was trying to do that. Way too much liability and way too sweet of a target for hackers.

atribecalledquest

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #64 on: October 26, 2016, 11:54:01 AM »
Just tried to make an entry but it wil only let you save if you put a value in every field.  I just wanted to put my wage for the month in and fill out the rest later

I can't make any promises but I will look into being able to save a draft of an entry. Thanks for trying it out!

atribecalledquest

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #65 on: October 26, 2016, 11:57:13 AM »
Just tried to make an entry but it wil only let you save if you put a value in every field.  I just wanted to put my wage for the month in and fill out the rest later

Yeah this bugged me a bit as well, would be nice if the auto setting was taken from the month prior - so accounts that haven't changed value will remain stagnant without needing input

Hi Roboturner! Are you referring to accounts that do not change in value month over month? Essentially recurring items that remain the same value? If so, on page one someone recommended adding the ability to prepopulate entries with the prior months values if the item is flagged as recurring!

Check out this post to get the full scoop on recurring items: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/i-just-launched-trackfi-com-i-would-love-your-feedback!/msg1278843/#msg1278843


Let me know if you had something else in mind!

atribecalledquest

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #66 on: October 26, 2016, 12:01:12 PM »
This seems super neat! Playing with it now. :)
Are people just putting in their post-tax income? I didn't see a tax section.

Thanks for making this!

Orvell, I use take home page (ie, post tax, post 401k). The 401k contributions are accounted for when you add your 401k as an Account (type: investment). Thanks for trying out trackFI and providing feedback, it means everything to me!

Orvell

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #67 on: October 26, 2016, 12:03:06 PM »
This seems super neat! Playing with it now. :)
Are people just putting in their post-tax income? I didn't see a tax section.

Thanks for making this!

Orvell, I use take home page (ie, post tax, post 401k). The 401k contributions are accounted for when you add your 401k as an Account (type: investment). Thanks for trying out trackFI and providing feedback, it means everything to me!
Thanks for answering! :D

atribecalledquest

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #68 on: October 26, 2016, 12:09:54 PM »
First of all great job, I'm amazed at the ease of use and speed of the site.

Was curious to how you calculate "years till FI" is that purely based on expenses to net worth and 4% rule?  I keep the same data tracked in a pretty complex spreadsheet but also have different returns of values to say cash compared to equities, so in my spreadsheet I get a number like .09 months remaining where in your site I get -1.23 years, just wondering if you have any plans to allow change of the variables for calculating FI?

Thanks and again great job.

Thanks relaxednature for giving trackFI a try!

Regarding time til FI, it is calculated with the assumption of 5% growth after inflation. Yes, I intend to allow the growth rate to be adjusted by the user in the near future. The time til FI is a function of inflation adjusted growth rate, monthly savings (for that month), current net worth (for that month), and the 25x rule AKA 4% rule (expenses of that month extrapolated out for the year, times 25). With those variables, you can calculate time til FI via the NPER function.

More information on the NPER function can be found here: https://support.office.com/en-us/article/NPER-function-240535b5-6653-4d2d-bfcf-b6a38151d815

Also, it sounds like you might not need to use trackFI moving forward :P Congratulations on getting there!

Orvell

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #69 on: October 26, 2016, 12:15:05 PM »
It'd be nice if, regarding the above, there was a way to indicate what accounts should expect what growth.
For example, some of my accounts that are part of my net worth are cash. They're not going to grow at 5%
A thought would be an extra layer of inputs for "expected" ROI that's not required, but for folks who want to increase precision. :)

ETA: now we're just getting to the fiddly "wouldn't it be nice" parts.
It seems like a solid tool! :D Just has some assumptions baked in that won't be 100% applicable to everyone.

frugledoc

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #70 on: October 26, 2016, 12:30:12 PM »
Putting data in tonight, really like it.

Another suggestion is a place to put a rough amount for those with defined benefit pensions. Where it can be seen but kept separate from networth.

Mine is worth around 300,000 k but won't access it until 55 - 60 so like to keep it separate.

Roboturner

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #71 on: October 26, 2016, 02:35:40 PM »
With that said, I totally get the frustration of manually entering information and I am working through ways to get some sort of CSV importing integrated.

I think the easiest and quickest way to add this functionality (which I would really like) would be to provide a csv template - im cool shifting numbers around to fit a template. Just a thought

Also, I could be wrong, but it does seem as though the 'FI years to' includes non-liquid assets, is this true? Trying to keep my house out of it :P
« Last Edit: October 26, 2016, 02:38:04 PM by Roboturner »

boarder42

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #72 on: October 26, 2016, 02:54:37 PM »
yeah i'd totally be on board with this if it was like PC where i can just enter my accounts.  manually entering all that data isnt worth my time to see cool charts... though it does look cool. 

frugledoc

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #73 on: October 26, 2016, 03:03:45 PM »
It really is very quick to manually enter the data

Slinky

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #74 on: October 26, 2016, 05:35:37 PM »
This seems super neat! Playing with it now. :)
Are people just putting in their post-tax income? I didn't see a tax section.

Thanks for making this!

Orvell, I use take home page (ie, post tax, post 401k). The 401k contributions are accounted for when you add your 401k as an Account (type: investment). Thanks for trying out trackFI and providing feedback, it means everything to me!

That would account for the current value of your 401k, but how are you accounting for the value of future contributions in your FI projections? The only thing it knows is that Incomes - Expenses = Savings. If 401k Contributions aren't included in Income, how can they be included in my FI projections? Or HSA contributions or employer matches? That's leaving an awfully big chunk of savings out of the loop. Or am I missing something here?

Overall it's neat and there's a lot of potential, but also a lot of assumptions. It reads like a good alpha build to me where it's up and running and you've got the basics and the interface and infrastructure are all in place, but not all the features have been implemented and it needs building out to make it really usable to a wider audience. As an example, Incomes - Expenses = Savings, but Savings does not always equal Savings For FI. Excluding it from income corrupts your income history. Including it in expenses could inflate that number throwing off your FI date depending on what you're saving for.

atribecalledquest

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #75 on: October 26, 2016, 08:45:43 PM »
Thank you ! It looks very good.

I would like to be able to make difference between my "net worth" and "stash". I own my home but that asset should not count for the 4% rule.
I'm wondering if I also should not count my emergency fund in the "stash". Maybe have a boolean field on each account to determine if it is part of the "stash" or not ?

Quote
I am hoping that by this weekend, I can roll out a change that will allow you to choose your currency.
Cool ! That would have been another feature request.

Hi FrugalByChance, I rolled out your great suggestion tonight! You now have control over the safe withdrawal rate as well as the rate of return. You can access these options by clicking on the question mark beside Years til FI on the dashboard. Feel free to tweak away!


I also added the ability to exclude any Account from being considered in your Net Worth calculation (which also impacts Time til FI as well as Current Years Saved metrics). To exclude an Account, lets say in your case your house, navigate to your Accounts, find your house account and then go into edit. Once you are editing the house account, you should see the toggle Exclude from Net Worth. Go ahead and check the box to exclude the account!


Thanks again for the great suggestions! Hope you are finding the tool useful! Let me know if you come across anything else you would like to see or would make using the tool easier/better/more fun!

Kevin

atribecalledquest

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #76 on: October 26, 2016, 08:50:40 PM »
Putting data in tonight, really like it.

Another suggestion is a place to put a rough amount for those with defined benefit pensions. Where it can be seen but kept separate from networth.

Mine is worth around 300,000 k but won't access it until 55 - 60 so like to keep it separate.

Hi frugledoc, you now have the ability to exclude any Account from the net worth calculations. Let me know if that solves your issue!

atribecalledquest

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #77 on: October 26, 2016, 08:52:17 PM »
With that said, I totally get the frustration of manually entering information and I am working through ways to get some sort of CSV importing integrated.

I think the easiest and quickest way to add this functionality (which I would really like) would be to provide a csv template - im cool shifting numbers around to fit a template. Just a thought

Also, I could be wrong, but it does seem as though the 'FI years to' includes non-liquid assets, is this true? Trying to keep my house out of it :P

Hi Roboturner, check out the new update that allows you to exclude any Account, should do the trick :)

Let me know if that doesn't work for you.

Tdub

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #78 on: October 26, 2016, 09:48:43 PM »
Great start, and very clean layout.

I use mint regularly but feel it is catered to those who can’t manage money, and it is cluttered by expense categories I don't use but can't delete.  I only use it to track my net worth over time, and as a overview of all of my transactions to help me spot any errors.

I don't mind entering the data manually.  It takes more time, but it forces me to recognize every penny coming in and every penny going out.

Some changes that I'd love to see:
- More colors on the pie charts.  They look too similar to each other, so I can't tell which category is which slice of the pie.
- Ability to add expenses on a rolling basis without needing to update every single category.  I'd prefer to update my expenses daily, and update my investments every couple weeks.
- It'd be cool to filter retirement location by region.  I want to retire somewhere in the US with amazing winters, so my interest would be piqued by a city in western montana but I had no interest in the colombia that it showed me.  I'd also recommend showing fewer pictures - just let the user click on it to expand if they're interested.  An uninterested user will see it as visual clutter to an otherwise clean page.

My personal excel projection showed me retiring in 8 years, whereas your calculator said 4 years.  Maybe that was influenced because I only entered one data point, which happened to be this month when I got a big bonus?

One thing that I haven't figured out (with or without this calculator) is how to treat my retirement funds.  I am 23, and will not be able to access them for decades to come, but much of my net worth is tied up in them.  I guess I need to calculate how much I need in non-retirement funds to last me until I'm 59.5, and how much I need in retirement fund to take me from then until EOL.  I've decided to max out my 401k this year but it might not make sense to do that in my remaining working years.

I recently read "Your Money or Your Life" and will make the chart recommended in that book.  That would be a great addition to your website.

Thanks so much for sharing your hard work with us!  Sounds like it started as a fun project - is the plan to ultimately earn income from it (thru advertising, donations, or other means)?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2016, 09:54:15 PM by Tdub »

iamlindoro

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #79 on: October 26, 2016, 10:13:45 PM »
One thing that I haven't figured out (with or without this calculator) is how to treat my retirement funds.  I am 23, and will not be able to access them for decades to come, but much of my net worth is tied up in them.  I guess I need to calculate how much I need in non-retirement funds to last me until I'm 59.5, and how much I need in retirement fund to take me from then until EOL.  I've decided to max out my 401k this year but it might not make sense to do that in my remaining working years.

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/how-to-withdraw-funds-from-your-ira-and-401k-without-penalty-before-age-59-5/

Read that and prepare to have your mind blown.

Tdub

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #80 on: October 26, 2016, 10:40:24 PM »
One thing that I haven't figured out (with or without this calculator) is how to treat my retirement funds.  I am 23, and will not be able to access them for decades to come, but much of my net worth is tied up in them.  I guess I need to calculate how much I need in non-retirement funds to last me until I'm 59.5, and how much I need in retirement fund to take me from then until EOL.  I've decided to max out my 401k this year but it might not make sense to do that in my remaining working years.

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/how-to-withdraw-funds-from-your-ira-and-401k-without-penalty-before-age-59-5/

Read that and prepare to have your mind blown.

BINGO! Thank you!

kudy

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #81 on: October 26, 2016, 10:46:24 PM »
Really slick, enjoying putting in my numbers so far.

I don't really like the rounding to whole numbers, maybe I'm alone in this, but I'd rather see 2 decimal places displayed on all numbers where I entered 2 decimal places (I also think some of the addition is getting screwed up because it's adding up rounded numbers?).

I'd love to see a screen that shows savings rate over time, as well as average savings rate for a span of time. I appreciate the simplicity of the savings rate calculation you are doing, but a lot of folks here end up calculating savings rate factoring in 401k contributions, employer match, etc. No idea how you might try and approach calculating that, or if you even want to. As an example of how complicated one can make it, my formula for savings rate:

(savings) 401k match + All Retirement Account Contributions + HSA Contributions + Long Term Taxable Investments + Debt Paydown / (income) Take Home Pay + Side Hustle Earnings + 401k Match + 401k Contributions + HSA Contributions

Again, very awesome tool, thanks for sharing!

Tdub

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #82 on: October 27, 2016, 12:03:07 AM »
Quote
That would account for the current value of your 401k, but how are you accounting for the value of future contributions in your FI projections? The only thing it knows is that Incomes - Expenses = Savings. If 401k Contributions aren't included in Income, how can they be included in my FI projections? Or HSA contributions or employer matches? That's leaving an awfully big chunk of savings out of the loop. Or am I missing something here?

Overall it's neat and there's a lot of potential, but also a lot of assumptions. It reads like a good alpha build to me where it's up and running and you've got the basics and the interface and infrastructure are all in place, but not all the features have been implemented and it needs building out to make it really usable to a wider audience. As an example, Incomes - Expenses = Savings, but Savings does not always equal Savings For FI. Excluding it from income corrupts your income history. Including it in expenses could inflate that number throwing off your FI date depending on what you're saving for.

I am putting my income as gross paycheck minus taxes.  This means future 401k contributions that come from my paycheck are still counted as income, and will eventually show up as an asset, just as normal cash would.  Any paycheck deductions that don't end up in a bank account (retirement or not) are considered expenses (e.g. health insurance excluding FSA/HSA).

OP - if the program is intended to be used differently, please let me know!

fumanchu282

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #83 on: October 27, 2016, 10:25:13 AM »
Kevin, a very cool tool and an even more impressive story of how it came to be.

I have something to admit: I created an account, started adding my data, and then got scared that I would start to love the tool so much that I'd be up a real creek if it ever went away some time between now and the time I retire. So then I spent the rest of the night stealing your best ideas and putting them into my personal FI spreadsheet ;)

It's a little scary to me that the site doesn't make YOU money, because that might mean it's not sustainable and might go away. I would feel better if I could pay to use this!

It'd be nice if, regarding the above, there was a way to indicate what accounts should expect what growth.
For example, some of my accounts that are part of my net worth are cash. They're not going to grow at 5%
A thought would be an extra layer of inputs for "expected" ROI that's not required, but for folks who want to increase precision. :)

ETA: now we're just getting to the fiddly "wouldn't it be nice" parts.
It seems like a solid tool! :D Just has some assumptions baked in that won't be 100% applicable to everyone.

With all that in mind (and you may be thinking about this already), here's my humble suggestion for you:

I think you would do well with a freemium model, where both free and paid accounts have the same full functionality that you have today, but the difference between the two account types is as follows. Free users' features operate off of a single, sensible, immutable, well-documented set of assumptions for each feature, while Paid users have the ability to adjust the underlying assumptions if they don't work for them and they want more control.

As a bonus, this would help keep simple the very nice user onboarding flow you have currently, and once users get up and running with the base product if they want to twiddle more knobs they'll have the option!

Just my 2cents

Tdub

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #84 on: October 27, 2016, 12:17:55 PM »

- Ability to add expenses on a rolling basis without needing to update every single category.  I'd prefer to update my expenses daily, and update my investments every couple weeks.


Update from day 2 of using it: I'm just editing my october entry with purchases I made in the past day, without needing to update the other items.  This will probably continue to work just fine, but it'd be cool to have a little plus button next to each category where I type in the new entry and it does the math for me and adds it to the total.

I could see myself using this as a tool regularly. Thanks again.

MudDuck

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #85 on: October 27, 2016, 12:42:33 PM »
I can't make this work. When I click, "+ Add Entry" it gives an error message at https://www.trackfi.com/entries/new

atribecalledquest

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #86 on: October 27, 2016, 03:17:57 PM »
I can't make this work. When I click, "+ Add Entry" it gives an error message at https://www.trackfi.com/entries/new

Hi MudDuck sorry to hear you are having issues! Have you created any accounts/incomes/expenses yet?

Is the issue with creating an Entry or is it something else? Are there any error messages that are shown when you try and submit an Entry? If you could post a screenshot or the steps you took to create the error, I will get to the bottom of them ASAP!

Thanks for trying out trackFI.

Kevin

atribecalledquest

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #87 on: October 27, 2016, 03:30:39 PM »
It'd be nice if, regarding the above, there was a way to indicate what accounts should expect what growth.
For example, some of my accounts that are part of my net worth are cash. They're not going to grow at 5%
A thought would be an extra layer of inputs for "expected" ROI that's not required, but for folks who want to increase precision. :)

ETA: now we're just getting to the fiddly "wouldn't it be nice" parts.
It seems like a solid tool! :D Just has some assumptions baked in that won't be 100% applicable to everyone.
This is a great suggestion and I put it on the roadmap to implement in the future! Right now though, I feel that it might introduce more questions and confusions than its worth. Then again, the FI crowd is a really savvy group :)

A workaround for the time being is that you could lower the rate of return which is now customizable by going to the dashboard overview tab and clicking on the Years til FI question mark. It will pop up a modal where you can adjust the rate of return and safe withdrawal rate.

The default rate of return is 5.0%. Let's say you have assets that total $500k with $100k as cash (20% cash), you could reduce the rate of return to by 20% to 4.0%. It's not ideal, but then again, holding a large cash position over the long term is not ideal either :P

I guess I should also have a disclaimer that trackFI is not designed to be an exact science.

Thanks again for all your feedback!

atribecalledquest

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #88 on: October 27, 2016, 04:38:23 PM »
Great start, and very clean layout.

I use mint regularly but feel it is catered to those who can’t manage money, and it is cluttered by expense categories I don't use but can't delete.  I only use it to track my net worth over time, and as a overview of all of my transactions to help me spot any errors.

I don't mind entering the data manually.  It takes more time, but it forces me to recognize every penny coming in and every penny going out.

Some changes that I'd love to see:
- More colors on the pie charts.  They look too similar to each other, so I can't tell which category is which slice of the pie.
- Ability to add expenses on a rolling basis without needing to update every single category.  I'd prefer to update my expenses daily, and update my investments every couple weeks.
- It'd be cool to filter retirement location by region.  I want to retire somewhere in the US with amazing winters, so my interest would be piqued by a city in western montana but I had no interest in the colombia that it showed me.  I'd also recommend showing fewer pictures - just let the user click on it to expand if they're interested.  An uninterested user will see it as visual clutter to an otherwise clean page.

My personal excel projection showed me retiring in 8 years, whereas your calculator said 4 years.  Maybe that was influenced because I only entered one data point, which happened to be this month when I got a big bonus?

One thing that I haven't figured out (with or without this calculator) is how to treat my retirement funds.  I am 23, and will not be able to access them for decades to come, but much of my net worth is tied up in them.  I guess I need to calculate how much I need in non-retirement funds to last me until I'm 59.5, and how much I need in retirement fund to take me from then until EOL.  I've decided to max out my 401k this year but it might not make sense to do that in my remaining working years.

I recently read "Your Money or Your Life" and will make the chart recommended in that book.  That would be a great addition to your website.

Thanks so much for sharing your hard work with us!  Sounds like it started as a fun project - is the plan to ultimately earn income from it (thru advertising, donations, or other means)?

Great post! Thanks for taking the time to type it up, it means a lot.

Regarding providing more colors, I just added it to the backlog.

Regarding adding expenses, can you clarify a little bit more by what you mean. The idea I originally came up with for trackFI is that you only have to create expenses once during the onboarding or whenever a new expense arises (say in 3 years your future mini you starts daycare, etc). Im interested to learn more about what you mean by adding expenses frequently (daily).

The retirement location by region needs a complete overhaul and might move into its own tab in the next couple of days/week. Right now, the main purpose for it is to provide you motivation and inspiration. I want people who maybe only are 30% of the way to login and see whoa! I could retire to this backwater in India right now if I wanted to! But obviously, most people wont do that, but its a fun thought exercise and provides motivation to keep going as each month, in theory, the cities improve as the cost of living in those cities increases.

I do like the idea of having the ability to select a city and it telling you how many more years it would be until you could retire there as well.

I will look into reducing the amount of images loads with the option to load more.

The time til FI metric is heavily dependent upon that particular months expenses. If you have a very high expense month, the time til FI will be drastically increased as it is using that months expenses to calculate how much you would need to become FI (based on the 4% rule AKA safe withdrawal rate, which is also now customizable). It does not use an average of expenses but I plan to tonight roll out new charts that will show, over time, the fluctuations of all the main metrics on the dashboard overview page. This will allow you to see how the Years til FI has bounced around based on expenses.

I'm really curious about the "Your Money or Your Life" graph you mentioned. Could you point me towards an example or more information? Thanks in advance!

Regarding monetization, I have no immediate plans. I really, really, REALLY want to stay away from advertising as the monetization source at all costs. It just feels dirty and in my opinion cheapens whatever product you are using. I am hopeful that enough people find trackFI useful that I can build out advanced power user features, possibly some nifty importing, more customizable features, better control, insights, etc, and offer a premium version, at a very reasonable price (credit to fumanchu282 for the idea!). It would be totally optional and I plan to always have a free version that is very capable.

But adding membership is months off. My costs right now are around $200/month on server fees, plus around $3000 in sunk costs, so unless things increase by a factor of 10, I have plenty of runway to focus on building features and incorporating feedback. This does not take into account the literal 1000's of hours I've invested, but I look at that as more of a learning experience.

I would love nothing more than to quit my day job (which I really enjoy), and focus 110% of my time on this but until I can prove out a sustainable business model, it will remain my hobby project for the foreseeable future!
« Last Edit: October 27, 2016, 04:50:41 PM by Kevin »

atribecalledquest

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #89 on: October 27, 2016, 04:49:24 PM »
Kevin, a very cool tool and an even more impressive story of how it came to be.

I have something to admit: I created an account, started adding my data, and then got scared that I would start to love the tool so much that I'd be up a real creek if it ever went away some time between now and the time I retire. So then I spent the rest of the night stealing your best ideas and putting them into my personal FI spreadsheet ;)

It's a little scary to me that the site doesn't make YOU money, because that might mean it's not sustainable and might go away. I would feel better if I could pay to use this!

It'd be nice if, regarding the above, there was a way to indicate what accounts should expect what growth.
For example, some of my accounts that are part of my net worth are cash. They're not going to grow at 5%
A thought would be an extra layer of inputs for "expected" ROI that's not required, but for folks who want to increase precision. :)

ETA: now we're just getting to the fiddly "wouldn't it be nice" parts.
It seems like a solid tool! :D Just has some assumptions baked in that won't be 100% applicable to everyone.

With all that in mind (and you may be thinking about this already), here's my humble suggestion for you:

I think you would do well with a freemium model, where both free and paid accounts have the same full functionality that you have today, but the difference between the two account types is as follows. Free users' features operate off of a single, sensible, immutable, well-documented set of assumptions for each feature, while Paid users have the ability to adjust the underlying assumptions if they don't work for them and they want more control.

As a bonus, this would help keep simple the very nice user onboarding flow you have currently, and once users get up and running with the base product if they want to twiddle more knobs they'll have the option!

Just my 2cents

Hi fumanchu282! Great to hear that you gave trackFI a spin! I wanted to address your concerns, trackFI is very much a long term project for me and I would be lying if I didn't say that I wanted it to eventually become a sustainable business.

Right now, I am very much focused on providing value and incorporating feedback. I have no immediate plans to monetize the site and since monthly costs are very reasonable (around $200/month), I have a very long runway to figure out the financial aspects of the site.

I very much like your idea of membership with the paying tier receiving additional configuration options. I hope I can win you back and you become a regular user :P

In the highly unlikely event that it doesn't pan out, I will absolutely notify all users and provide ways to export all account information.

Thanks for taking time to check out the site. Your feedback is invaluable!

Tdub

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #90 on: October 27, 2016, 07:46:24 PM »
Regarding adding expenses, can you clarify a little bit more by what you mean. The idea I originally came up with for trackFI is that you only have to create expenses once during the onboarding or whenever a new expense arises (say in 3 years your future mini you starts daycare, etc). Im interested to learn more about what you mean by adding expenses frequently (daily).

.........

I'm really curious about the "Your Money or Your Life" graph you mentioned. Could you point me towards an example or more information? Thanks in advance!

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

When I said adding expenses, I mean expense entries/transactions, not the categories.

If I purchase $8.05 worth of groceries tonight, I'll go back and add $8.05 to my october groceries category.  I would prefer to type in $8.05 somewhere and click a plus button, and it's automatically added.  Instead, I have to add it to my "running tab" in a calculator (or my head), let's say 250.25+8.05 and update the groceries category to be $258.30.  That make sense?

There is a "your money or your life" graph attached below.

There are three lines graphed over time:
- Earned income
- Expenses
- Investment income (I use a 4% estimate from index funds, but plan to add rental cash flow in the next few years)

These are all month-to-month, not cumulative.

The goal is for the earned and investment income lines to go up over time, and the expenses to go down or stay steady.  When the investment income line crosses over the expenses line, it's called the "crossover point" and you're free to drop the "earned income" job and retire!  It's just a graphical representation of the concepts you and I and everyone on this forum knows well.

Any long term plans for an app?

« Last Edit: October 27, 2016, 07:48:20 PM by Tdub »

MMMdude

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #91 on: October 27, 2016, 10:22:03 PM »
Looks interesting based on screenshots others have shared.

I have 10 years of expense data I would like to import in....is that possible?

sisca

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #92 on: October 28, 2016, 03:50:06 AM »
Very nice, kevin. I love it! This kind of website has an immediate appeal to people like us here :)

On the overview page you calculate years to FI, which is based on last month. For me, both incomes and expenses fluctuate quite a bit, so the number will jump around. Is it possible to get some sort of average here instead? One set of boxes as is, but another set of boxes showing the average for the past 12 months? That would be really useful.

Slinky

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #93 on: October 28, 2016, 11:03:07 AM »
Quote
That would account for the current value of your 401k, but how are you accounting for the value of future contributions in your FI projections? The only thing it knows is that Incomes - Expenses = Savings. If 401k Contributions aren't included in Income, how can they be included in my FI projections? Or HSA contributions or employer matches? That's leaving an awfully big chunk of savings out of the loop. Or am I missing something here?

Overall it's neat and there's a lot of potential, but also a lot of assumptions. It reads like a good alpha build to me where it's up and running and you've got the basics and the interface and infrastructure are all in place, but not all the features have been implemented and it needs building out to make it really usable to a wider audience. As an example, Incomes - Expenses = Savings, but Savings does not always equal Savings For FI. Excluding it from income corrupts your income history. Including it in expenses could inflate that number throwing off your FI date depending on what you're saving for.

I am putting my income as gross paycheck minus taxes.  This means future 401k contributions that come from my paycheck are still counted as income, and will eventually show up as an asset, just as normal cash would.  Any paycheck deductions that don't end up in a bank account (retirement or not) are considered expenses (e.g. health insurance excluding FSA/HSA).

OP - if the program is intended to be used differently, please let me know!

From the OP, as quoted in my original comment:
Quote
Orvell, I use take home page (ie, post tax, post 401k). The 401k contributions are accounted for when you add your 401k as an Account (type: investment). Thanks for trying out trackFI and providing feedback, it means everything to me!

Personally, I did somewhat similar to you and entered an income source for net pay and then additional sources for savings type paycheck deductions so that they are included in the FI projection. Alternatively, I could have used my gross pay and then added all non savings deductions, including taxes, as expenses. Or your method of gross - taxes + other deductions as expenses. Not just net pay though, and in any case, the interface should make it clear to the user how to enter their data without consulting the author of the software.

frugledoc

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #94 on: October 29, 2016, 03:18:48 AM »
Looks interesting based on screenshots others have shared.

I have 10 years of expense data I would like to import in....is that possible?

Out of interest, what is the point in 10 years worth of expense data? 

atribecalledquest

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #95 on: October 29, 2016, 02:21:54 PM »

2.) On your pie charts you now show the current month. Could you keep the default graphs as the current month but add a dropdown list that would allow you to view graphs from previous entry months.

Thanks again. Keep up the great work!

Hi randellman, I incorporated your suggestion! You can now view all data for previous months as a percent of total! To access these new charts, go the either the Assets, Liabilities, Expenses or Incomes tab and scroll down to the pie charts. If you have more than 1 entry, you now have the option to view historical data by the different segmentations!

Below is a demo of looking at the expenses over time as a percent of total.


Thanks for the great suggestions! Let me know if there is anything else you'd like to see.

MrsDinero

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #96 on: October 29, 2016, 06:35:32 PM »
I haven't read all the comments yet, so I hope this hasn't been mentioned before.

I just started playing with it and spent quite a bit of time adding in my expenses.  Only to realize after I put in about 10 that none of them were marked as reoccurring.  I had to go back and manually open them all as I could not find a select all and mark as reoccurring.

Also I would like to see the expenses marked as reoccurring by default.  I think the majority of expenses will always happen, mortgage, utilities, internet, insurance, etc.


P.S.  I really like it.  I still have more playing around to do but so far Two Thumbs Up!

nnls

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #97 on: October 29, 2016, 07:31:02 PM »
Thanks this is really cool

atribecalledquest

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #98 on: October 29, 2016, 07:49:24 PM »
I haven't read all the comments yet, so I hope this hasn't been mentioned before.

I just started playing with it and spent quite a bit of time adding in my expenses.  Only to realize after I put in about 10 that none of them were marked as reoccurring.  I had to go back and manually open them all as I could not find a select all and mark as reoccurring.

Also I would like to see the expenses marked as reoccurring by default.  I think the majority of expenses will always happen, mortgage, utilities, internet, insurance, etc.


P.S.  I really like it.  I still have more playing around to do but so far Two Thumbs Up!

Hi MrsDinero, thanks for trying out trackFI!

I hope I can help clear up what I believe reoccurring means. Please correct me if I misinterpreted you, but the idea behind a reoccurring expense is that the value of the expense does not change month to month. For example, a mortgage is going to cost the same month in and month out, a good candidate for a reoccurring expense. However, groceries, or the electric bill would not necessarily be reoccurring as the value fluctuates based on how much you eat or how much you use your AC every month.

The expense will show up in all entries moving forward regardless of its reoccuring status. Reoccuring just means that the value from the prior month will be automatically populated into the new months entry to save you time and effort as it did not change. Hence the reoccuring status.

I might have assumed wrong, but I think that the majority of expenses fluctuate month to month for people, with the exception of things like mortgages or cell phone bills, which can be manually adjusted to become reoccurring. This is why by default, reoccurring is disabled.

I think your idea of having a way to select a bunch of expenses at once and toggle a setting is a great idea! Much quicker and easier than having to click into each item. I added that to my roadmap!

Thanks for taking the time to provide great feedback! I hope you trackFI gets/keeps you motivated :)

Please let me know if you disagree or if I didn't provide adequate clarification. I am very much open to suggestions!

Kevin
« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 07:56:34 PM by Kevin »

atribecalledquest

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Re: I Just Launched trackFI.com - I Would LOVE Your Feedback!
« Reply #99 on: October 29, 2016, 07:54:14 PM »
Thanks this is really cool

Thanks nnls! Please feel free to message me on the forum or email me at kevin@trackfi.com if you run into any issues or have any questions/requests!

Kevin

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!