I'm going to reply to a few posts and give a VERY late update.. I declined the offer and stayed with my current employer. I know there will be many more amazing opportunities in the future both with my current employer and with others. I wish it would have worked out, but for many of reasons stated here it was not practical. Once I made the final decision to decline the offer, I had a huge weight lifted off my shoulders and was no longer in "limbo." I was unable to negotiate a raise at my current job - fairly rigid one raise per year for everyone at the same time, but I am optimistic that I get a decent one next year. Overall, things have been good since I put this whole thing behind us! It really was a tough choice and I know it's best for my husband and I. If the upside financially was a more, then it may have been worth it. But the only real financial upside was the stock... which wouldn't have been wise to "count" on... granted I'll definitely be kicking myself if their stock soars in the next couple years hah. But for now, very happy with my decision to stay put.
In my reading of this thread, you seem to really want to take the new job. All (or at least most) of your responses are defensive in terms of the new job vs current job and deflective of any disadvantage of the new job. You also seem to minimize any concerns about your marriage and the effects it will have on you and your husband. I say this as merely saying back to you what I am hearing (reading).
My advice to you is to make sure that you are truly valuing the effects this could have on your marriage. When we (humans) are excited about something we tend to maximize our estimation of the upside and minimize our estimation of the downside. If you take the new job, what do you think the increase in probability that you and your husband will get divorced is? It is not zero. I challenge you to actually put a number on this. Is this increase in likelihood of getting divorced worth the potential benefits of the new job?
A year after getting married, my wife took a job that meant she would be working 50 minutes away (previously it was the same town and 5-10 minutes away). Due to this, she stayed with her grandparents two nights a week in the city where she worked. She got paid a lot more at the new job and we thought it would be worth it.
In the end, it was definitely worth it. We had a higher income, my wife got to spend invaluable time with her grandparents and I had two nights a week to do whatever I wanted. I was in grad school at the time, so I did have some freedom to do what I wanted. One of my wife's coworkers was flabbergasted that my wife would leave me alone two nights a week. What if I was going around cheating on her? This particular coworker's previous issues with past relationships were the source of her concerns. For us, it was of no concern.
After all of this rambling, there is no way I would even consider what you are considering. Two nights apart a week is not even close to only 2-3 days together a month. My wife is the person I most enjoy spending time with (in person and not over the phone or video conference or face time). My "career" is what I do to provide us with income (my wife quit working as soon as we had children) and my life is what I do with my family.
You're right, our schedules now actually put us apart 3 - 10 nights a month and that's a lot as is. It would be hard to only be together a few days a month.
DBF and I (together seven years now) have had two long-distance stints. The first was the beginning of our relationship, when we lived a 6-hour drive apart for three months. The second was a year and a half in, when we lived a four-hour drive apart for around seven months. It was terrible. For the second stint, the plan was to see each other around twice a month, each time for a weekend. That fell apart quickly. No amount of phone calls or IM was able to compensate for the inability to hold each other. We ended up visiting almost every weekend, even when I was working Tax Season, and stretching the weekend as long as possible by leaving in the wee hours of Monday morning. Even after the first stint, I did not expect the second one to be so difficult. It was such a relief when he was home for good. When I have worked later Tax Seasons, even if we never saw each other while awake, I found that it is deeply comforting to be able to sleep beside the one you love.
For this Company T job offer, what happens if your DH comes to visit and you have to work that weekend? Would you ever fly to him? It sounds like you both do (and would) have exhausting schedules. Is flying going to make that much worse?
If keeping your current job:
If your current set of commutes is so bad, I would think it would make sense to pick workplace location A for a main apartment, then near workplace B have a small apartment or room-share. During the week, partner B sleeps at room B a five-minute walk from work B, then leaves from work on Friday to go home to apartment A. Apartment A is five minutes from workplace A. Now only one person has a slightly worse commute twice a week (Friday evening and Sunday night/Monday morning), and if ever there is a "I just want to see you tonight," the drive is still possible. If one person can telecommute occasionally, you get more time together.
Recently, with our hours we find ourselves in the same position as you sometimes.. only being home and awake while the other is sleeping. Even that is tough! I'm glad we decided to pass on the opportunity. I have brought up getting a small place or room to rent near his job. He's resistant though, I think he feels guilty about spending the extra money that we could be saving.. I feel the same way, but if one or both of us is reaching a breaking point I think it would be worth it. I may bring it up again
What purple Economist said. I am more of a person who lives for his family and works to get by. Maybe you're more of a person who lives for her work/vision and has a family. In my opinion, one isn't better than the other - e.g. Musk is as great of a person as my father who was a family man, they just prioritized different things. Judging by your responses, maybe you place a higher value on following a vision and molding the future of our world.
Personally, no job could convince me to live apart from my wife, be it the presidency or the next great XYZ. My purpose in life isn't to change the world, it's to spend time and be happy with the ones I love. No matter how strong your marriage is now, 3 years is a huge amount of time and will increase the chances of divorce.
Have you considered that your husband might strongly prefer that you stayed, but he doesn't want to be the one to hold you back from your dream job? Maybe he doesn't want you to hold it against him for the rest of your lives. If you do decide to stay, be happy with that decision and don't hold it against anyone.
Good luck!
I value my family and my husband. I spend basically all my free time with him or our families.. versus I have some family members that seem to prioritize friendships over family. But I definitely prioritize work higher than some people - possible most people. But I also view it as a temporary thing. We are young (late 20s) and financially better off than many people will ever be. Arguably, we could leanFIRE in the near future. I'm sure one or both of us will stop working full time in our mid-30s. But I do get fulfillment and satisfaction from my work, but it's too overwhelming right now and taking over everything. I'm hoping to get a little more balance in the next couple months. I honestly don't think he was so supportive just to not be the one to hold me back. And I feel zero resentment or regret for staying put. I think it was worthwhile for us to seriously consider the opportunity and what it would mean for my career and for our marriage.
I think it's wise to listen inside to how you are responding to all the suggestions that staying put would be better. Do you find yourself agreeing? Or feeling defensive of the new job? This might help you decide which way you are leaning. For what it's worth, my own experience being torn between two options like this is that I really do know what I want to do, and I'm trying to talk myself out of it. Once I clue in to that, I can start to let go of the reasons I'm trying to convince myself not to follow my instincts and move forward with clarity.
My vote is to go for it. For the record, DH and I lived apart for 2 years while I worked on my PhD--an almost 2 hr flight apart. It sucked, no question. Would I do it again? Yep. Some thoughts:
1. The financials are a wash. Your counter-offer to them was designed to make it a wash. :) So let that go.
2. Although you love your job right now, it sounds like your quality of life already sucks. So in terms of daily living and working long hours, this is also a wash. My DH and I (and many other couples we know who live/work in different cities and see each other on weekends) found that when we were able to connect, especially in person, it was really special and affirming. You will both need to be conscious of working to stay connected. But when I did it, there was no texting or skyping, etc, only phone calls. It's way easier now when we are apart to text and send photos etc throughout the days. If you are both committed, you can make it work. But stay committed to those weekend trips each month! Make them sacred.
3. Hire a property management company to manage your rentals. Keep DH's quality of life as good as possible; it's great that he would get to lose his commute.
4. This IS a once in a lifetime opportunity. It's not about the money; I am way suspicious of cults of personality, I am also suspicious of the electric car revolution. There is risk that your stock will not take off. But the network that you tap into, the power of that line on your CV, the opportunity to work with the best in your field on something challenging and new is significant. It will stay with you for the rest of your life. If it sucks and you decide to quit within a couple of years, all of the above still holds true.
5. Consider the consequences of taking it and having things go sour. What's the worst that can happen? You will be completely, desirably employable once more, with another great line on your CV. If you don't go back to this company, you can go somewhere else. You and DH can still RE or make creative decisions together about where to go next in life.
So! After all of those points from a random internet stranger, how do you feel? Excited? Have I got you pumped up? If so--go for it! If instead you still feel queasy, and like you're not sure it's worth it, than don't go. Feel no regret. You will still be able to tell your future contacts that you were headhunted.
If I had been headhunted by Apple 20 years ago and turned them down, I would feel only a funny regret that I hadn't cashed in. I would feel no regret that my life turned out awesome anyway and I didn't have to work my ass off for a guy whose vision was so strong he didn't care about me as an employee one way or the other. I would feel no regret that I hadn't had the opportunity to work on the iphone. I would be just as happy as I am now because my life is awesome, because I kept making choices that were right for my soul, regardless of the implications for my retirement fund.
Hope that helps!
Honestly, I felt myself wavering constantly, which is why I struggled for so long and dragged it out for several months!
1. Yep.. financially a wash unless the stock takes off. I honestly don't think they could have justified paying me anymore.. still not sure I'm worth as much at they offered! It was quite flattering.
2. Yep.. work life balance and quality of life is poor right now.. and has gotten worse since my original post.. I worked 80-100 hours of OT per month for 2 months in a row.
3. I'm assuming the property management company was only a suggestion for if I chose to take the job. Maybe in the future if we move out of state we will hire a property manager. For now, since I said no to the offer.. we aren't considering a property manager.
4. Okay... that gave me a small pang of regret! But I am optimistic that there will be other unique opportunities that come my way down the road.]
Thanks for your comment. I agree - If Tesla takes over the world. I won't have regrets because I'm sure I will have made a million other decisions between now and then that I'm happy about and have led to a great life/family/career.. and of course FIRE !
With the 2x5% bonuses and 10% 401k match I don't see any financial upside in the new company other than a $60k signing bonus. It's big, but its also just one time ~2/3 of your yearly salary. That wont be "huge" after 10 years.
And yes, there is potential upside if the stock sky rockets. But, you don't have to take a job with the company to get that upside. It's a publicly traded company. You can just buy the stock.
So I see no big financial upside with the move. It definately has a cooleness factor though, not arguing there, but lets be honest about the financials.
This is a good point. And I would never buy an individual stock.. not that dollar amount or % of our net worth... so it also conflicts with my investing strategy. Which reaffirmed the risk associated with the only financial upside to the offer.
I"ll be interested to see what you decide! I'll throw in a few out-of-the-box thoughts I don't think I've seen mentioned.
-The two opportunities sounds like a financial wash NOW. If you take the job at T, in 2-3 years, hubby joins you but I think you said there were not good opportunities for him. His salary probably takes a big nosedive and things are no longer a financial wash. How important is hubby's career to him? Would he be willing to RE while you continued working there or might he come to resent that?
-Really, is there anything in this for hubby at all? I hear him taking on more work (rentals), time for cross-country flights (they are long and get old quickly)... No job opportunities for him to look forward to... Is there any payout for him at all in this proposition, besides a shorter commute for a couple of years? I see problems for the marriage down the road if he's making a lot of accommodations to make this work while you get all of the benefit and there is no upside in it for him.
-Are you getting regular raises in your current job? Given that you negotiated a much higher salary for the new job than they originally offered, it wouldn't surprise me if you didn't get a raise there for a while.
-You could solve the commute problem by living apart NOW too (I see that Purple Economist already suggested this). Each of you could rent a place close to work, and alternate traveling on weekends for less cost and travel time then jetting across the country. And see each other every weekend instead of just once a month. The two scenarios are more equal - does that change which you prefer?
I also questioned the math that you are working insane OT but not making $95K. If $72K is based on 40 hours/week, and you're working 12-16 hours x 5 days a week, your annual salary should be between $108 and $144 for straight time OT (if you could keep up that pace, which I wouldn't recommend). If you're working 12-16 hour days and not geting paid for it, that's a different problem.
Engineering companies usually pay straight time OT because billable hours are what counts. Big corporations that are not consulting for external clients are more likely to have a straight salary, no overtime policy.
- He's 100% willing to RE and let me keep working! I mean he jokes about being a "house husband" But in all seriousness, once we are FI.. he may RE and I'll keep working. One idea is for me to follow opportunities to different cities/countries. He could find part time or volunteer work and I can stay with my current employer. Living/working internationally would be near impossible if we were reliant on two incomes. But I could continue working and have my company basically fund our "slow travel" and kind of test it out before I take the plunge and quit with him.
- True... there was essentially no upside for him.. Besides being supportive of me and potentially down the road financial benefit to both of us (shared finances after all)
- Current company does raises once per year and are pretty strict on that. I
only got ~3% last year.. which was right before I got the T offer.. So I was a little dissatisfied with that.. But am optimistic I'll get more this year considering how reliant the team is on me at this point in time and how much I'm learning and contributing and just shear number of hours I'm putting in..
- We have considered living apart now.. Maybe I'll bring it up again as things are stretched very thin right now in terms of stress/time/responsibilities. ($ is not stretched thin.. saving more than ever :) )
- I don't ALWAYS work 12+ hour days.. comes in waves. But since starting at my company i have earned 23.5 % beyond my base salary.. some months 50% above base salary and some much less.. so including bonuses I'm right around $95k now. Yep... all about billable hours! Thank goodness our project budgets are reasonable for the # of hours necessary to put in and no one hassles me about the number of hours I bill.
I have enjoyed reading through this thread and have absolutely no advice for you. Very difficult decision. I'm a stay-at-home mom. You haven't mentioned how old you are or how old your spouse is, but am thinking back.....if I were in my 20s again and not considering children in the near future, I, more than likely, would have taken the "risk" and made the move to a different company (as long as spouse is on board) without batting an eye. It would be a great opportunity. If I were in my 30s and possibly starting to think about having a family, I would not make the move. If I were in my 30s and not thinking about starting a family, I would make the move--again, all with spouse's approval. In my 40s, wouldn't make the move, period.
It sounds like you have a great position already. But really, I think it should come down to what your spouse wants/desires in a relationship.
Please let us know what you decide.
I'm going to be 28 in a few months and my husband is 28. Sorry for the delayed update on our decision to stay put and decline the offer! I'm sure there will be more "cool" opportunities in our futures :)
I was in a similar situation about a year ago. http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/startup-vs-corporate-and-how-that-relates-to-happiness-vs-fire/msg715637/#msg715637 Should I take the job or stay where I was at? It was a tough decision because of similar benefit discrepancies that you have. I ended up taking the job - but my situation was certainly different - I hated my previous job and I was able to move across town to an area where engineers are in higher demand in case my job fell through - meaning no future moves.
Here's why I wouldn't take the job if I were in your shoes.
- Seriously consider if being away from your spouse is worth it. It wouldn't be for me. I was away from my spouse (fiance at the time) for 9 months one time and I was physically ill - vomiting daily - by the time the 9 months stint was done. I vowed to never do that to us again.
- Trading a long commute for a shorter commute is good - but your frequent additional cross-country travel will offset these costs and time commitments.
- Your potential for new work in Reno is basically nill. Seriously evaluate how many engineering jobs are there that you could easily get if something went bad at Tesla in 4 years once your DH gets out there. I have a coworker now that took a job writing software for gambling machines in Reno. Once the job fizzled - He couldn't find a new job there and ended up finding a job in the Denver area - where business is booming - again away from his family for 21 months because they couldn't sell their house. I looked at Tesla jobs online and there are many jobs available in Palo Alto. I'd be more inclined to work in Palo Alto where Engineers are in high demand - although cost of living there is also high.
Something here has to change to make this happen for me. Here are some options.
- Husband stops his masters degree and transfers with his current job now. This eliminates 2 of the 3 major issues. DH could also possibly work on his masters online. This could maybe even eliminate issue 3 if DH's job provides more staying power.
Convince Tesla to give you 20% more. 10% so you could continue to hit your previous company match yourself. 5% more for additional travel expenses. 5% more for additional buffer. Edit - I'm taking this one out - with 60k in stock that you can pull 25% of in a year - this makes up for most of this.- Convince Tesla to send you to Palo Alto instead. Possibly at a higher wage to make up for the cost of living.
- I'd probably sell the rental property so you could be more mobile and reduce stress on DH if he stays behind. I'd consider getting a GOOD property manager but those are hard to find.
Are they giving you a relocation package? I'd insist on this as well. Moving is NOT cheap.
I'd also be changing one thing even if I did stay where you currently are. 5 hours a day in a car combined is inexcusable for a mustachian. Assuming 60mph average - that's 300 miles a day... or ~$150 a day in vehicle expenses (at the government rate - MMM says $1 a mile)! It sounds like you and DH are making good money if you're maxing out 401k, retirement accounts, and still have $3k to save. But imagine they savings if you could both be closer to your jobs. About $3300 more per month!
I'd also consider dropping the Masters program. Seems like it's really reducing your standard of living and won't guarantee a higher standard of living once completed.
Edit: Looking at those jobs I see one that I'd be a perfect match for.... making me think about applying.
A lot of good points here! thanks. Yes they offered a complete relocation package.. shipping our stuff, shipping cars, flights, hotel for a few weeks, and a couple thousand cash.
YES. Our commutes is the least mustachian thing about us.. not sure how to get around it until my husband finishes grad school and gets a new job.. supposedly his masters will be worth ~$10k more in salary per year. It's a science program.. include lab research.. not possible to do online/remote
How'd your application/interview go??
Reno has had too many engineers versus jobs for a number of years. It can take up to 2 years to find a job there.
We would never live in one place looking for a job for more than a couple months. We'd more likely do long distance than have one employed for that long..
