I feel like a loser...

[QueyWet]

I have no money saved at 28 and I have $10,000 of debt and I make the minimum wage.
I have only recently found out about FIRE.
I am used to eating out , I must have blown $100,000 dollars on it in the last 10 years.
And spent about the same amount on rent.
I wish I found out about FIRE 10 years ago.
Don't know if I can even do anything right now at this point after spending so much and bot saving.

[GermanStache]

Welcome!
Of course you can do something.-!

• STOP eating out right now. Think of things to cook / prepare at home. If you cannot cook even a ready meal you heat up at home costs a fraction of a restaurant meal.
• Make a list of your debts
• Make a list of your income
• Make a list of everything that you have to pay each month
• Once you figured out how much money you make and how much is left after you paid your bills you know IF and how much is left. That you use on paying down your debt.
• Go through the list of payments and review if you NEED it and if the answer is yes if there is a cheaper way to get it (phone, insurances, TV - there are so many options!

Once you start you will see that it is actually motivating. The important thing is do DO something. Take action, don´t dwell on the past! You can do it :-)
Katja

[Zamboni]

Hi QueyWet, I suspect your situation is actually quite normal. No reason to feel like a loser if you are just being normal!

The important thing is that you have found this board. Anything you've spent in the past is just water under the bridge, so let it go and move forward.

Many of the people on this board stumbled in here by accident (I certainly did . . . ) and then learned a bunch of stuff, made some changes gradually over time, and now we are the abnormal high savers heading for FIRE.

My suggestions would be for you to
1) join the "Saving to $10K" thread on "Throw Down the Gauntlet." Many of the posters there start with zero savings and a bunch of debt to pay off first, so you'll have lots of peers.
2) Track your actual spending for 3 months by writing everything down or using YNAB or Mint or a spreadsheet, whatever works for you.
3) Read and or watch videos to keep learning. One book I really liked was called Millionaire Teacher, and many people like Dave Ramsey or Gail Vaz Oxlade's books as well since they have concrete game plans for getting out of debt. Both of them have also made a bunch of videos, many of which are on YouTube. Enjoy!

Finally, we all struggle sometimes, and struggling is important because if you never struggle, then you can never grow. Good luck to you!

[Monkey Uncle]

Great suggestions so far.  Zamboni's #2 (track spending) is the key to pinpointing spending that you can reduce or cut out entirely.

I would add one more suggestion: start looking for ways to increase your income.  If you are truly just making minimum wage, the road to FIRE will be very long.  You may need some additional education or training to qualify for higher paying work.  Such training can be well worth the investment as long as you don't take on additional debt to do it. 

[HomewardBound]

You have time on your side.  I didn't figure it out until I was 35 years of age so 7 years later than your good self.  I'll FIRE this year.

You've discovered a group of like minded people and it sounds like you want to do something about it.  Those 2 points alone give you a huge advantage going forwards.

[MrThatsDifferent]

I didn’t figure this out to my late 40s. You could put yourself on a 20 year journey to figure all this out and still be 20 years ahead of your peers in retiring. Pick your head up and make it happen. Whiners achieve nothing but pity.

[Metalcat]

You're in your 20s and you think it's too late???

After all of your threads you've started, I really think that your first step is to talk to a medical professional, as a few of us advised you in the sleep thread.

I don't think you are going to be able to tackle this FIRE goal without first working out what's going on with you and getting your health and wellbeing in line.

[Indexer]

So you won't FIRE by 30 like MMM. I didn't either. But you could still FIRE by 40 or 45 if you start the path now, which is still 20 years before the average American. How is that a loser?

Analogy: You're at the beginning of a very long marathon, and currently in the middle of the pack.



I agree with all the advice given so far and add that getting a job with a higher income is going to be important. Even if you are a master at frugality and savings it will be hard to save very much making minimum wage. I recommend the following blog posts about jobs paying over $50,000/yr.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/07/25/50-jobs-over-50000-without-a-degree-part-1/

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/08/05/50-jobs-over-50000-without-a-degree-part-2

[CheapScholar]

I think you should read through all the MMM articles, a few other blogs like ERE as well, and then come up with a solid game plan for the next 10 years that focuses on financial and self improvement.

[QueyWet]

Ok, thanks for the advice everybody, I will try to implement it.
You have cheered me up that it's not too late for me to start my path on FIRE.
I am pretty sure I never want children (I am a male) so I think it will be easier for me.

[YK-Phil]

At 28, you are probably ahead of 90% of the people I know in your age group, including three of my own four kids who are 28 and over. They are not a drain on me financially, but I admit losing a bit of sleep over their situation...

The good news is that you are on this forum, so from this point forward, it will all go uphill with a few tweaks in your lifestyle. Cover your three bases -budgeting, saving, investing, and you will be on your way to FIRE. All the best.

[Kem]

What a great starting point to ramp up from, that 10k hole you wallow in is shallow indeed!

Following the advice of peers, parents, and society I leveraged an education, a new car every 100k, and a lifestyle way above my GAP prior to using my brains.

At your age I was making 50K but held 25K of credit card debt, 13K in personal loans, 25K in auto loans, 106K of student debt on a degree stack in a decimated field, and a 240K mortgage.

I gave up nearly 50K/year painting (full time would have led to 75K+ company) and learning the ropes on flips for rentals with zero debt and an older truck - for this decade long lesson.

Truely, I envy your position!

My suggestion given the lack of info:
1 - rent and find a roommate or 2 to subsidize.  This is a bit easier in college communities.
2 - pickup a second weekend or night job for a couple of days a week.
3 - track spending, you need a budget!  Also, home cooked meals can be highly economical.
4 - $1000 or so cash buffer
5 - dump the rest into some form of investments.
6 - read all MMM Blog posts.   I found FIRE a few scant months ago, but meticulously engineered to all the same conclusions starting in 2012
.
Give us a case study!  Folks here are stellar.
Ie https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/case-studies/fire-in-10-years-and-leave-a-legacy/msg2361655/#msg2361655

[RedmondStash]

Srsly, OP, I did not discover FIRE until my 40s. And 10 years later, I'm doing fine. When I was in my 20s, I had negative net worth too.

You're ahead of the game. I wish I'd known about FIRE when I was 28. The world would have been my oyster. You just need some patience and some dedication. You'll get where you want to go. It's never fast enough, but you can get there.

Good luck!

[afox]

You have to do whatever is necessary to make as much money as possible. Change careers, move, go back to school, look for new jobs, etc. Choose a career that pays as much as possible, choose a place to live with high incomes. Money is everything in the U.S. Without it when you get sick a doctor's assistant will literally tell you to go home and die. Low income is a predictor Pretty much everyone on this board has extremely high incomes. Take advice from those on this forum, these is a group of some of the highest wage earners you will find anywhere. You must reduce your spending too but really that should be secondary to making more money. Its going to be extremely difficult and take a long long time get an education, then work hard for little pay as an intern or something, then work really hard for little money but in the end it will be worth it and there is really no other option to get by in the U.S.

[kei te pai]

I think if you spend more time reading both the MMM blog and what others have posted on the forum you will get a broader perspective than if you just keep firing off questions that pop into your mind.
And contrary to what @afox says, lots of people here are NOT earning vast sums.
Nor are they all from the US.

[ilsy]

First of all, you need to find a motivation to be FI, regardless of ever RE or not. Ask yourself why do you want to be FI. You say that you don't want to have kids, which is fine, if this is what you really want. But for many mustachians kids are a huge motivator to become FI and RE to spend more time with the kids. Just being frugal isn't a motivation on itself.

If money wasn't an issue, what would you do with your life? Many people say they would travel, and that might work for some people. I, for example, did a lot of traveling when I was younger and lived in several countries, I don't miss it, it grew old, I get very little from traveling now (places start looking similar and people remind me other people), there is a zero contribution to my comminity, or humanity (IMHO).

Once you found your motivation or a goal to become FI and RE it might not look so gloomy that you have been wasting money until now. It does take some spending to figure out what do you really like and what do you want to do if the money wasn't an issue. And negative results are still results.

[Zamboni]

You have to do whatever is necessary to make as much money as possible. Change careers, move, go back to school, look for new jobs, etc. Choose a career that pays as much as possible, choose a place to live with high incomes. Money is everything in the U.S. Without it when you get sick a doctor's assistant will literally tell you to go home and die. Low income is a predictor Pretty much everyone on this board has extremely high incomes. Take advice from those on this forum, these is a group of some of the highest wage earners you will find anywhere. You must reduce your spending too but really that should be secondary to making more money. Its going to be extremely difficult and take a long long time get an education, then work hard for little pay as an intern or something, then work really hard for little money but in the end it will be worth it and there is really no other option to get by in the U.S.

Is this satire?

Plenty of folks in trades, for example, do extremely well for themselves financially, and many do not have extensive formal education. MMM even has a blog post about medium and high paying jobs that don't require college. Regardless of your job, your savings rate is much more important the absolute income in becoming financially independent.

Finally, the part about poor people being told to go home and die is just silly. Even just me, as one person, know several people who had the unfortunate experience of getting life threatening illness like cancer while unemployed and uninsured, and in every single case the medical care personnel not only treated them, but did so either free (in the case of my niece and another friend) or at a greatly reduced rate they could afford (in the case of a family friend.) I don't want you to derail this thread, but I am curious if you have a bad experience that led you to say this?

OP, I hope you are reading the blog. . . the principles there will give you the tools to succeed and thrive.

[ilsy]

You have to do whatever is necessary to make as much money as possible. Change careers, move, go back to school, look for new jobs, etc. Choose a career that pays as much as possible, choose a place to live with high incomes. Money is everything in the U.S. Without it when you get sick a doctor's assistant will literally tell you to go home and die. Low income is a predictor Pretty much everyone on this board has extremely high incomes. Take advice from those on this forum, these is a group of some of the highest wage earners you will find anywhere. You must reduce your spending too but really that should be secondary to making more money. Its going to be extremely difficult and take a long long time get an education, then work hard for little pay as an intern or something, then work really hard for little money but in the end it will be worth it and there is really no other option to get by in the U.S.

I live in the US and don't have a high income, and don't even want to have a high income (I choose not to have a high income, might even change my job this year to reduce it ). There is no only one correct path to FI and RE. In my opinion, reducing the spending is primary and sure way to FI.

I really find only one case (need for a transplant) when a PA is going to tell someone to go home and die if they can't afford a private insurance. And that might not to be the case now, that was before ACA. Money isn't everything in the US, that's not true.

Unless you are joking... for some reason. Maybe you want to scare this young overwhelmed non American visitor seeking guidance from mighty mustachians.

[nereo]

You have to do whatever is necessary to make as much money as possible. Change careers, move, go back to school, look for new jobs, etc. Choose a career that pays as much as possible, choose a place to live with high incomes. Money is everything in the U.S. Without it when you get sick a doctor's assistant will literally tell you to go home and die. Low income is a predictor Pretty much everyone on this board has extremely high incomes. Take advice from those on this forum, these is a group of some of the highest wage earners you will find anywhere. You must reduce your spending too but really that should be secondary to making more money. Its going to be extremely difficult and take a long long time get an education, then work hard for little pay as an intern or something, then work really hard for little money but in the end it will be worth it and there is really no other option to get by in the U.S.

Most of this is extreme hyperbole, or outright wrong.

• There are many people on these boards who do not have a high income.
• You can FIRE even earning below median US wages (and many here already have)
• Health care professionals will not tell you to "go home and die".  By law they are obligated to treat life-threatening conditions regardless of insurance.
• Getting 'an education' does not need to be extremely difficult nor then require work as an intern for little or no pay. There are many fields (still!) which do not require an advanced degree
• Earnings are not more important than expenses, though you should not ignore either.
  

[Imma]

You are very welcome to join the Low Income Group Journal on the journals board! You'll find lots of people in the same situation. Believe me, it's very possible to save and get ahead in your situation! You're actually doing pretty well compared to many if you're only 10k in debt.

[JestJes]

I did too when I started! As a former Consumer Sucker  I understand where you are coming from. Just remember really smart people are making a living trying to sell you stuff so its no wonder so many people are in debt.

Read MMM and follow the advice and maybe get a side hustle if at all possible and you will be out of this in no time. I paid off 18K in credit card debt and I know I'll never go back. You can do it too with the simple math of spending less than you make.

GOOD LUCK!

[Enigma]

"Increase income or decrease debt" it is as simple as that my friend.  I read lots of people suggesting keeping an eye on your money and your spending.  They are right but at the same time that will do amazing results as you start increasing your income.  Start looking for better opportunities while keeping the same lifestyle as you have now.  Hell you are used to living off a meager income.  Once you have a bigger income you are learning not to fall into the trap of increased luxury.  There will be a time for that.

Keep your head up.  We all start somewhere and when I was 29, I started my IT career.  Before then I was in the same boat.  10 years later I now have enough to RE.  You are still young my friend.  Good luck

[afox]

You have to do whatever is necessary to make as much money as possible. Change careers, move, go back to school, look for new jobs, etc. Choose a career that pays as much as possible, choose a place to live with high incomes. Money is everything in the U.S. Without it when you get sick a doctor's assistant will literally tell you to go home and die. Low income is a predictor Pretty much everyone on this board has extremely high incomes. Take advice from those on this forum, these is a group of some of the highest wage earners you will find anywhere. You must reduce your spending too but really that should be secondary to making more money. Its going to be extremely difficult and take a long long time get an education, then work hard for little pay as an intern or something, then work really hard for little money but in the end it will be worth it and there is really no other option to get by in the U.S.

Is this satire?

Plenty of folks in trades, for example, do extremely well for themselves financially, and many do not have extensive formal education. MMM even has a blog post about medium and high paying jobs that don't require college. Regardless of your job, your savings rate is much more important the absolute income in becoming financially independent.

Finally, the part about poor people being told to go home and die is just silly. Even just me, as one person, know several people who had the unfortunate experience of getting life threatening illness like cancer while unemployed and uninsured, and in every single case the medical care personnel not only treated them, but did so either free (in the case of my niece and another friend) or at a greatly reduced rate they could afford (in the case of a family friend.) I don't want you to derail this thread, but I am curious if you have a bad experience that led you to say this?

OP, I hope you are reading the blog. . . the principles there will give you the tools to succeed and thrive.

Its not satire at all. Ive read the blog and it proves what I say, around 2001 MMM was earning $125k per year and mrs mmm  was earning $70k per year. That's $195,000 per year household income in 2001 which equals about $300,000 per year in todays dollars.  That put them in the 97.5 percentile of household incomes at the time.  In other words only 2% of U.S. households made more money than they did.  And this does not account for investment income only W2 income. 

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/15/a-brief-history-of-the-stash-how-we-saved-from-zero-to-retirement-in-ten-years/
https://dqydj.com/united-states-household-income-brackets-percentiles/
https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=195000&year1=200101&year2=201802

While it is *theoretically *possible for a low income earner to achieve FI and RE I cant point to any examples of anyone actually achieving this. We wont get into the reasons here because theyve been discussed ad nauseum in other threads. I dont know why MMM forum members (and even MMM himself) dont like to bring up the fact that we are pretty much the upper echelon of income earners, why be ashamed of this or pretend that we are "average", when we can be proud of this?  And why on earth would anyone give the OP who has the balls to come on here and admit that he or she earns minimum wage and has a mild spending problem advice that their first step towards FIRE should be reducing their restaurant bills.

As to the health care. At age 66 my own mother was indigent and had a life threatening illness. The doctors and their assistants told me that because she was indigent and without insurance there was no money to treat her and that her best option was hospice. The choice was hospice or "hospice at home without medical care", ie. "go home and die". We chose hospice. True that emergency rooms cannot refuse you care but they are only required to stabilize and release you not treat your condition. Doctors offices absolutely certainly do refuse to treat patients who cannot afford to pay all day long. Furthermore, receiving care or treatment without the funds to pay for it will result in debt that will make your life and most likely the life of your family and loved ones miserable. It is no stretch of the truth to say that in the US earning a decent income and having good health insurance in the US is life or death.

So sorry to bring up subjects noone wants to talk about and hope you all have a wonderful day!

[nereo]

Its not satire at all. Ive read the blog and it proves what I say, around 2001 MMM was earning $125k per year and mrs mmm  was earning $70k per year. That's $195,000 per year household income in 2001 which equals about $300,000 per year in todays dollars.  That put them in the 97.5 percentile of household incomes at the time.  In other words only 2% of U.S. households made more money than they did.  And this does not account for investment income only W2 income. 

So - your conclusion is that because Pete had an above average salary, no one else can achieve FIRE without it?  That is, in a nutshell, where your argument goes off the rails.  It would be just as erroneous to conclude that "only men" (this forum skews 2:1) can achieve FIRE, or "only people in the US", or "only those in the tech sector". 

While it is *theoretically *possible for a low income earner to achieve FI and RE I cant point to any examples of anyone actually achieving this. We wont get into the reasons here because theyve been discussed ad nauseum in other threads. I dont know why MMM forum members (and even MMM himself) dont like to bring up the fact that we are pretty much the upper echelon of income earners, why be ashamed of this or pretend that we are "average", when we can be proud of this? 

Thankfully, other forum members here (myself included) can!  As pointed out upthread there's even a few threads on this very topic, and several well-known senior mustachians who have retired on lower income salaries.

And why on earth would anyone give the OP who has the balls to come on here and admit that he or she earns minimum wage and has a mild spending problem advice that their first step towards FIRE should be reducing their restaurant bills.

Perhaps because the OP identified it in the lead-in as a big source of spending? 

So sorry to bring up subjects noone wants to talk about and hope you all have a wonderful day!

These have been discussed extensively.  Ignorance of the discussions does not mean they are absent.  MMM has even featured case-studies of low-income success stories on the main blog.  Given how easily it is to find examples of these subjects you allege are not talked about - I can only conclude that you either haven't bothered to look or are simply trolling.

[afox]

I didnt say any of those things about gender, country of residence, etc. nereo you did.

MMM is a great role model, why shouldn't we all aspire to be in the top 2% of wage earners in our 30s? 

I have not seen any case studies of minimum wage earners (aka the OP) achieving FIRE, please post examples.

The median income in the US is $56k per year, the minimum wage is $7.25 per hour or $15k per year. The OP has to improve his or her income.

Why are you so sensitive about the fact that it is leaps and bounds easier to FIRE with a higher income? 

[Roadrunner53]

Queywet, You are not a loser but a victim of our society of spend, spend, spend, buy, buy, buy. Now you are at a point and age to see that the direction you are going in is the wrong path and is going to get you nowhere.

First off, minimum wage is not a good place to be. Unless you are handicapped and can't work in a more physical type of occupation. You need to analyze why you are in this minimum wage job. Is it lack of skills or lack of ambition? There is a local culinary school in my town that is free to attend. They only accept around 20 people every few months to learn culinary skills to be a short order cook and learn skills in the kitchen. This gives the student exposure to working in a kitchen, knife skills, discipline. They all do an internship in a field they might like. Some go into diners, hospital kitchens, corporate kitchens, sandwich shops, restaurants. All these people, once they have completed the course work, graduate and are helped to find a job. My husband is a licensed HVAC contractor licensed in our state. Just this week he received two letters in the mail offering employment. These companies can find licensed people thru the states license bureau. HVAC seems to be a needed occupation. My husband started off as an apprentice at an oil company many years ago and went to night school at a technical school to learn about heating and ac. He started with a heating license and eventually as he learned more, was eligible to take the test for the HVAC contractor license. There are lots of opportunities out there for tradesmen. There are other things like dog grooming. You can take a course and graduate in a couple of months. My groomer works out of her home and grooms around 5-6 dogs a day herself. I pay $55 a dog but she charges more for bigger dogs. You could make $80-90K a year grooming dogs.
 
If you stay in this minimum wage job for the time being, you need to buckle down and get a second part time job. The part time job can be used to pay off debt. Your current goal should be to pay that debt off as fast as possible. If you have things of value, sell them and put towards the debt. Maybe you could even consider two part time jobs. One during the week and one on the weekends. No one said it would be easy or fun but you will pull yourself out of the trenches.

You should check with your state employment office and see if they have any free educational opportunities to help you out.

Costco is located all over the USA and they offer good pay. Within about 4-5 years you could be making $20+ an hour. Just have to keep your nose clean, work hard and show up.

Post office jobs. You have to take a test last I knew. Sometimes they have temp jobs. Not sure if you can get a perm job by temping or not but something to look into. No college necessary.

State jobs and Town jobs sometimes require no college degree.

Investigate what interests you and go for it.

I agree with other posters that have responded before me. Review their replies again. Good advice. Good luck.

[nereo]

I didnt say any of those things about gender, country of residence, etc. nereo you did.

MMM is a great role model, why shouldn't we all aspire to be in the top 2% of wage earners in our 30s? 

I have not seen any case studies of minimum wage earners (aka the OP) achieving FIRE, please post examples.

The median income in the US is $56k per year, the minimum wage is $7.25 per hour or $15k per year. The OP has to improve his or her income.

Why are you so sensitive about the fact that it is leaps and bounds easier to FIRE with a higher income?

I'm responding to what you wrote upthread, much of which I think is demonstrably wrong.   I am not objecting to it being easier on a better income; I am refuting your claims that 'pretty much everyone' here has a high income, and the implication that it's an inherent necessary for one to have a high income in order to reap the benefits espoused here.

For posterity, here are some of the points you made which I am refuting

• Pretty much everyone on this board has extremely high incomes
• these is a group of some of the highest wage earners you will find anywhere
• there is really no other option [than advanced education] to get by in the U.S.

Those are just the just the statements pertaining to FI/RE that I find most objectionable.

You asked for examples, here are a few:
Low Income Earner Threads:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/low-income-group-journal/
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/any-low-income-mustachians-out-there/

Here are some blog posts MMM wrote about earning more without a degree:
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/07/25/50-jobs-over-50000-without-a-degree-part-1/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/08/05/50-jobs-over-50000-without-a-degree-part-2/

Here are a few examples of case-studies on the main blog under the $56k/year median income
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/06/05/success-even-after-self-destruction/
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/09/28/reader-case-study-pulling-a-mustachian-180/
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/09/12/reader-case-study-young-man-saved-from-jeep-suicide/
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/11/14/doubling-your-salary/
You can also find dozens of case studies under the 'low income' tag.


Even closer to the point, your insistence on high-income to make FIRE work goes against the very concept of this forum.  Pete has addressed it head on a number of times, yet the idea that you *need* a high salary to FIRE refuses to die.  He's addressed it here, here,
including these gems:

It Doesn’t Matter How Much Money you Make

The most important thing to note is that cutting your spending rate is much more powerful than increasing your income.

[afox]

• Pretty much everyone on this board has extremely high incomes
• these is a group of some of the highest wage earners you will find anywhere
• there is really no other option [than advanced education] to get by in the U.S.

[/quote]

numbers one and two I believe to be true, although I don't have any hard data to back up my statements. And I believe that these are really good things! I have learned so much to learn from these high income earners!

Number 3 you misconstrued. You put the part in square brackets in, not me. When I said "there is really no other option to get by in the U.S.", clearly I meant that there is no other option than earning a decent wage/having money at your disposal to get by in the US. Without a decent wage/money you are likely to end up in jail, dead from violence, dead or sick from lack of healthcare, etc. To put it lightly, here in the US as im sure elsewhere lack of money is a real risk factor for a lot of things that shorten your life, and make you miserable. Earning a decent wage or having money at your disposal (same thing really) is even more important in the US where we do not have much of a social safety net. There are lots of ways to make money. It just so happens that advanced education leads to the highest incomes as measured in the aggregate.

You keep equating a median income with minimum wage. like I wrote to you upthread, median income is 56k year, minimum wage is 15k a year, OP said he earns minimum wage. I even said its "theoretically possible" for a minimum wage earner to achieve FI and RE but I don't believe it is practically possible.

I dont agree with Pete when he says "It Doesn’t Matter How Much Money you Make". I just flat out think he is wrong about this and the math on my side. I always side with the math. Prove me wrong by showing how via math or via an example of how a minimum wage earner in the US can FIRE. Also, that's quite a statement coming from someone whose family income topped out at the top 2%.

I only somewhat agree with the statement "The most important thing to note is that cutting your spending rate is much more powerful than increasing your income." This is true since a penny saved is worth much much more than a penny earned, the problem is that there is a practical limit to how much you can save while there is no practical limit to how much you can make.

[soccerluvof4]

I have no money saved at 28 and I have $10,000 of debt and I make the minimum wage.
I have only recently found out about FIRE.
I am used to eating out , I must have blown $100,000 dollars on it in the last 10 years.
And spent about the same amount on rent.
I wish I found out about FIRE 10 years ago.
Don't know if I can even do anything right now at this point after spending so much and bot saving.

They say misery loves company so here goes and this was in the late 80's early Ninety's but I will keep it short. By Twenty eight I was 5 fold in debt what you are plus. Divorced, living on my friends couch and had no job. My friend got me a job as a forklift driver and I just chipped away and took things one day at a time. Thats what I suggest you do because son you are not in bad shape at all just start taking it one day at a time. Ask yourself am I doing the best thing I can for myself right now and if not do better. Just keep moving forward and learn from your mistakes and you will be fine. Your not a loser but aware that you want to get your life rolling. Its called growing up! Good luck and remember the day you became aware or even call it hitting bottom whatever gets you motivated.

[ObviouslyNotAGolfer]

Lots of good advice here. I highly recommend the sacred text called Your Money or Your Life--the book that started me down this path. You are certainly no loser--keep your chin up and don't let the bastards get you down!

And THANK YOU for not saying you feel like a "looser" ! ;-)

[Zamboni]

As to the health care. At age 66 my own mother was indigent and had a life threatening illness. The doctors and their assistants told me that because she was indigent and without insurance there was no money to treat her and that her best option was hospice. The choice was hospice or "hospice at home without medical care", ie. "go home and die". We chose hospice. True that emergency rooms cannot refuse you care but they are only required to stabilize and release you not treat your condition. Doctors offices absolutely certainly do refuse to treat patients who cannot afford to pay all day long. Furthermore, receiving care or treatment without the funds to pay for it will result in debt that will make your life and most likely the life of your family and loved ones miserable. It is no stretch of the truth to say that in the US earning a decent income and having good health insurance in the US is life or death.

So sorry to bring up subjects noone wants to talk about and hope you all have a wonderful day!

I'm really sorry to read about your Mom. That must have been very hard. Please accept my condolences.

Take solace in the truth that any healthcare provider acting in according the ethically accepted norms would only recommend hospice if they believe that there really isn't any treatment that has even reasonable odds of curing the situation. Rich people can throw good money after bad at the hospital, though, when really they should go on hospice instead to ease suffering. It's not even a controversial topic on the internet other than a few intentional (and often admitted) trolls.

[afox]

I'm really sorry to read about your Mom. That must have been very hard. Please accept my condolences.

Take solace in the truth that any healthcare provider acting in according the ethically accepted norms would only recommend hospice if they believe that there really isn't any treatment that has even reasonable odds of curing the situation. Rich people can throw good money after bad at the hospital, though, when really they should go on hospice instead to ease suffering. It's not even a controversial topic on the internet other than a few intentional (and often admitted) trolls.

Lets keep this general to the topic of whether or not a provider has to treat you if you cannot pay and not specific to my mothers situation.
The law that you are referring to is the The Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA), please read about the law before continuing this discussion:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Medical_Treatment_and_Active_Labor_Act

As stated this law only requires certain providers (those that accept medicaid) to treat "emergency medical conditions (EMC)".

Read the section "Non-covered medical conditions" to understand the situations in which a provider can refuse to treat a condition.

Many people with chronic conditions are forced to wait until their condition progresses to the point that it is an EMC before they go to the emergency room. For example dialysis for kidney disease is not an emergency until toxins build to potentially lethal levels in the body so patients that cannot pay wait until the the toxin build up is life-threatening. In fact NPR did a story about this on sunday:
https://www.npr.org/2019/05/12/721800514/transplants-a-cheaper-better-option-for-undocumented-immigrants-with-kidney-fail
"That means, every couple of weeks, they go to the hospital when so many toxins have built up in their body it's life-threatening. "

I hope this explanation helps and I dont fault you for not understanding the nuances of the system, its incredibly complex and makes no sense from a medical, or an economic perspective, its entirely the result of politics.

[afah0447]

Don't stress man 28yo is young. I was in a worse situation than you (-$65k in debt) at your age. I'm now 38 and sitting at $150k NI. It ain't a huge amount but I know now my future is secure. Just knuckle down....you have the time, believe me.

[happy]

28 is definitely not too late! As long as your ambitions for FIRE income are not too high, most folks should be able to FIRE  in  around 10 years after clearing debt ( excluding a mortgage). I found MMM at 53, worked up to getting to a 60% savings rate over a couple of years whilst raising 2 kids and retired 7 years later at 60 ( I already had some saving).

Get an optimism gun and get started. Youth is on your side.

[Bernard]

When I was your age, I had a Ferrari Dino. Financed. Not a penny to my name.

That out of the way, I second that you should check out Jacob's Early Retirement Extreme. He was a nuclear physicist and lived off $5K per year. In the Bay area of California of all places. Worth reading his blog.

Secondly, you need to scrap every penny of spending you don't need. Equally important, if not more important, you need to figure out what to do with your life. Minimum wage jobs are only for starters. At 28, you need to take the next step. As many of use have told you here, there's tons of jobs where you can make a great deal more money. I'd like to add one: machine operator. Caterpillar trains people in Vegas for free. You'd be making $70K after a year and eventually can hit $100K by operating a rig. Just a few weekends back I rented a Bobcat as I'm redoing my front yard, and it's fun to drive that thing!

I suggest you actively search for a line of work that will work for you, and where you make more money.