Author Topic: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?  (Read 9091 times)

Pizzabrewer

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 679
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #50 on: February 18, 2019, 02:20:44 PM »
Also this is Mexico. $15K there is a whole lot more than $15K here.

See I really hoped I'd not have to go here in this discussion, that people would be reasonable and see that Kuchar tried to get away with paying less than the customary fee.

But this comment touches on the core issue that can't be danced around.  There are definite elements of racism, imperialism and exploitation at play here.  I had hoped not to have to point this out as it will probably lead to another rabbit hole but it's the crux of why this is such a compelling story.

As a thought experiment, it turns out that Kuchar's wife acted as an emergency fill-in caddy for Dustin Johnson for 9 holes at the same tournament.  Granted the scenarios are different, but suppose she caddied all 4 rounds and DJ won.  Do you think she and her husband would be happy with the payout Matt provided thinking it was generous??  I seriously doubt it.

I'm a red panda

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8197
  • Location: United States
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #51 on: February 18, 2019, 02:37:56 PM »
Also this is Mexico. $15K there is a whole lot more than $15K here.


Didn't he win the millions in Mexico though? It that "a whole lot more there than here?" 
It's an international tour.  Do they take into account your nationality whenever you win a tournament and adjust? Or should they only do that to pay caddies?
If a Mexican player had won, should he have taken a lower payout, since it's more in his home country than an American?

Pizzabrewer

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 679
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #52 on: February 18, 2019, 02:40:38 PM »
Also this is Mexico. $15K there is a whole lot more than $15K here.


Didn't he win the millions in Mexico though? It that "a whole lot more there than here?" 
It's an international tour.  Do they take into account your nationality whenever you win a tournament and adjust? Or should they only do that to pay caddies?
If a Mexican player had won, should he have taken a lower payout, since it's more in his home country than an American?

Glad to see someone else gets it.  Thanks.

Little Aussie Battler

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 229
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #53 on: February 18, 2019, 08:18:42 PM »
Yes I understand golf.

Here is another article you won’t read that says you’re wrong. If you did read it, I’d advise you pay particular attention to the statements of the former PGA pro who occasionally one-off caddies on the LPGA.

http://www.realclearlife.com/sports/was-matt-kuchars-5k-caddie-payout-after-winning-1-3m-actually-wrong/

Of course I will read it - I'm a huge golf fan. I play and watch (when I can), I listen to golf podcasts on my way to/from work, and I read a bunch of articles on all sorts of golf-related topics. 

I will admit that 'realclearlife' is not a website I visit for golf-related info, and this article is the first one I've seen that suggests that this is somehow standard for fill-in caddies.  Have you actually listened to the podcast they are quoting?  It's nowhere near as definitive as the article suggests, and even Hawley says that there is discretion for fill-in caddies (he just thinks $5k is too low). His opinion is largely based on the fact that Kuchar won a large amount and paid the caddie a small amount, when he had the opportunity to do something life-changing.

And if you've just gone searching for stuff that supports your view that 10% is the accepted standard for fill-in caddies, you've probably ignored the overwhelming number of people - including Ortiz himself - saying that he doesn't think he deserves the 10% that a regular caddie would get paid.

Here's a few examples:

https://golfweek.com/2019/02/17/golf-19th-hole-what-a-caddie-work-worth-matt-kuchar-debacle-leaves-us-plenty-to-ponder/

"Not many guys on Tour are eager to talk about the issue since Kuchar issued a statement saying that he will finally pay Ortiz what he asked for (which was $50,000). Ask around and you won’t find many who believe Ortiz deserved the standard 10 percent a professional Tour caddie would expect, but even fewer who think five grand was acceptable."

https://www.golf.com/news/2019/02/12/they-can-keep-their-money-kuchars-fill-in-caddie-breaks-silence-over-pay-dispute/

"Ortiz said he did not expect to be paid what a Tour caddie would have made, but said he believed his work and contribution toward the win was worth $50,000."

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/matt-kuchar-caddie-cheap-tip-el-tucan-2019-2?r=US&IR=T

Per Michael Collins (former PGA caddie): "A couple of players told me if right after the tournament he writes the guy a check for $US35,000 – which is still less than 5% of a commission – he would have been seen as a hero,” Collins said. “Now most of the caddies and players that I talked to have said $US50,000 is the number, and one player said even if he pays the guy $US50,000, he’s never going to live this down"

Bob Harig, the senior golf writer for ESPN, and one of Kuchar's biggest critics on this issue gave this reply to a question on Twitter asking why he wasn't paying the 10% - "Because nobody believes that is a necessary payment for a fill in caddie. It is understood that is part of a deal for a regular who travels and pays his own expenses, etc"

And finally, if 10% were the 'custom' for fill-in caddies - which it's clearly not - why is everyone now giving Kuchar a pass for paying less than 5%? The reason is pretty clear, even if you refuse to admit it... 

Bloop Bloop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2139
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #54 on: February 18, 2019, 11:40:21 PM »
I think a lot of you guys are missing the the $5000 payout vs the agreed $4000.
Someone mentioned this earlier. Kucher did paid his caddie $5000 initially.
He then realized he needs to offer more money to the caddie so he offered him an additional $15,000.
The caddie rejected the $15K and asked for $50K. I think the caddie realized that hey "the usual payout is 10%" so I should be able to ask for 4%.
I think Kuchar got annoyed by the caddie rejecting the extra $15K and said screwed you.
Kuchar is not dumb. He's giving in because of all this bad publicity and no one is willing to stand on his side.
He knows he has more to lose than the $50K.
Listen, if it was me and I offered somebody $16K more than the agreed amount and they rejected it. I'd be a little pissed too. Also this is Mexico. $15K there is a whole lot more than $15K here.
I don't care what people say about Kuchar earning $1.3 milliion. He earned that by playing well.
I think he was generous to offer the extra $16K. The bad publicity got him to remorse.

Amen, brother.
The new caddie wasn't a regular caddy so the 5-10% presumption doesn't apply. And even if it did, the caddy didn't have the bargaining power to get terms agreed to that value. MMM tenet #1: use the law of contract to your advantage.
The bloke is from a poor third world country. If you travelled to Bali would you pay the taxi drivers $20 or $3? Obviously you'd pay the local rate even if you could easily afford a $20 taxi (which would be normal in a first world country). MMM tenet #2: pay what someone's willing to accept, not a cent more.
And the bloke earned his money - not the caddy. Even if you have $1m, doesn't mean you should give in to extortionate pricing. MMM tenet #3: live within your means.

The only rational reason for caving is the bad publicity. And the bad publicity is based on something that is quite contrary to MMM tenets: it's based on envy and wanting more than you're worth.

Bloop Bloop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2139
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #55 on: February 18, 2019, 11:45:02 PM »
Also this is Mexico. $15K there is a whole lot more than $15K here.

See I really hoped I'd not have to go here in this discussion, that people would be reasonable and see that Kuchar tried to get away with paying less than the customary fee.

But this comment touches on the core issue that can't be danced around.  There are definite elements of racism, imperialism and exploitation at play here.  I had hoped not to have to point this out as it will probably lead to another rabbit hole but it's the crux of why this is such a compelling story.

As a thought experiment, it turns out that Kuchar's wife acted as an emergency fill-in caddy for Dustin Johnson for 9 holes at the same tournament.  Granted the scenarios are different, but suppose she caddied all 4 rounds and DJ won.  Do you think she and her husband would be happy with the payout Matt provided thinking it was generous??  I seriously doubt it.

Er, what does Kuchar's wife have to do with anything? What she gets paid is between her and her principal. It's just the law of contract at work. Presumably she (or a more skilled, 'regular' caddy) has enough bargaining power to be worth the 'customary fee'.

I don't think there's anything wrong with taking advantage of the fact that some countries are dirt poor. Unless you scrupulously buy only clothing made in America and avoid most electronic gadgets, you're in the same boat, comrade.

"Reasonableness" has nothing to do with it. You pay the fee that is agreed. Otherwise you're really just arguing for charity.

Bloop Bloop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2139
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #56 on: February 18, 2019, 11:47:10 PM »
Also this is Mexico. $15K there is a whole lot more than $15K here.


Didn't he win the millions in Mexico though? It that "a whole lot more there than here?" 
It's an international tour.  Do they take into account your nationality whenever you win a tournament and adjust? Or should they only do that to pay caddies?
If a Mexican player had won, should he have taken a lower payout, since it's more in his home country than an American?

They only do that to pay caddies. Which is why in life, you'd much rather be a golfer, than a caddy. It's that simple.

JanetJackson

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 733
  • Location: United States
    • How I actually made $50 just for taking a survey and being in the healthcare marketplace
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #57 on: February 19, 2019, 07:16:47 AM »


I don't think there's anything wrong with taking advantage of the fact that some countries are dirt poor. Unless you scrupulously buy only clothing made in America and avoid most electronic gadgets, you're in the same boat, comrade.


Oh my god, wow wow. 
I guess there's just a fundamental difference in values here. 
There's a big difference between trying to do your best to buy things that are ethically made, within your ability and fully admitting that one believes there's nothing wrong with taking advantage of someone else's circimstance.

partgypsy

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4597
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #58 on: February 19, 2019, 09:23:05 AM »
I know nothing about golf and what usual caddies versus fill-in caddies get. But it seems that the people who know more about the subject than I (i.e. pro golfers, other caddies) felt that Kuchar underpaid the last minute caddie by paying significantly less than what is the norm (5-10% of the purse). The golfer paid 5K. I mean there are definitely disagreement about what the appropriate amount was. However it is telling that NO ONE took Kuchar's side in saying giving the caddy 5K for his work was fair or reasonable. Apparently 50K is closer to being reasonable.

Normally it would have ended there. The only unusual thing, is that we have the internet and people heard about it, and he (or his agents etc) caved to avoid further bad press. 

I'm sure things like this happened before the internet, just that us Joe schmoes wouldn't have heard about it.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 09:26:29 AM by partgypsy »

partdopy

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 138
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #59 on: February 19, 2019, 10:51:10 AM »
Funny that it is OK for the golfer to expect over a million for a weekend's work, but ridiculous for the caddy to expect $50k.

Pretty sure he 'expected' what the market is willing to pay for his services.  If he pays below market for his caddy, I wouldn't expect he'll get the best the market has to offer.

Or is it not OK to expect to make what the market will bear in 2019?

Jon Bon

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1360
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #60 on: February 19, 2019, 12:12:33 PM »
This kind of reminds me of that guy Scott Foster who got to step in for a goalie in the NHL.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/03/30/598263399/36-year-old-accountant-called-in-as-emergency-nhl-goalie-and-he-crushed-it

It was kind of the same situation, the regular guys were out and someone was needed on super short notice. He actually ended up playing in the game and doing pretty well. He did not however get paid anything.

The regular goalie was getting something like 6 million a year or about 70k a game. I don't think he was entitled to 70k paid to the regular full time goalie. Nor does he train with the team year round and work on his craft every day (like regular full time caddies do).

IMO in a pure business sense yeah the caddy got what he deserved. He signed the contract, and got paid that amount. If he wanted to hold out for more I am sure the second best caddy at the club would have jumped at the chance to make 5k. So he would have ended up with nothing. I mean he basically was able to blackmail/shame Kutcher into paying him for being a cheapass.

In this virtue signaling culture that we live in, yeah some sort of bonus would have probably been fair.

TLDR

Somewhere between 5k and 10% would be legit. But lets no be too generous with someone else's money!


partgypsy

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4597
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #61 on: February 19, 2019, 12:51:52 PM »
Funny that it is OK for the golfer to expect over a million for a weekend's work, but ridiculous for the caddy to expect $50k.

Pretty sure he 'expected' what the market is willing to pay for his services.  If he pays below market for his caddy, I wouldn't expect he'll get the best the market has to offer.

Or is it not OK to expect to make what the market will bear in 2019?

Part of the problem is sounded like the agreement didn't cover the situation. It wasn't discussed.
"Kuchar says it was a layered structure beginning with $1,000 for a missed cut, $2,000 for a made cut, $3,000 for a top 20 and $4,000 for a top 10. What the caddie would receive for a win was not discussed."
"The extra $1,000 was, 'Thank you — it was a great week.' lol- for at least one of them.

So, he pays him the 4K for making the top 10. Wins the entire tourney, and gives him a 1K tip. Which apparently everyone considered ridiculous. Another thing missing, even Ortiz did not think he should be paid what a long-term caddie would make which was 10%. He requested 4% which he thought was reasonable. 
So from a market perspective yes the caddy should get more. You may think it's ridiculous, but the whole pay structure for professional sports is ridiculous.

 
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 01:02:48 PM by partgypsy »

MrThatsDifferent

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2188
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #62 on: February 19, 2019, 01:30:37 PM »
Why is this a debate and people are acting like the golpher is some type of victim? He admitted he was WRONG. He’s not debating it. He fucked up. He tried to take advantage of someone from a lower socioeconomic environment and was busted. Good. Like slumlords or anyone else trying to game the system so they can get over on someone, just because they can, they need to be called out and do the right thing.

Oddly, I would’ve thought the take would be how much this guy saved. Had his regular caddie showed up he would’ve paid $130k (plus I’d imagine covering expenses for the caddie), but he only ended up paying $50k! That’s a sweet extra $80k in his pocket! Talk about a double win.

Be frugal and financially responsible folks, don’t be a greedy prick.

accolay

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 982
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #63 on: February 19, 2019, 01:44:48 PM »
Also this is Mexico. $15K there is a whole lot more than $15K here.
Didn't he win the millions in Mexico though? It that "a whole lot more there than here?" 
It's an international tour.  Do they take into account your nationality whenever you win a tournament and adjust? Or should they only do that to pay caddies?
If a Mexican player had won, should he have taken a lower payout, since it's more in his home country than an American?
Glad to see someone else gets it.  Thanks.
So did the player get paid in Mexican Pesos or American Dollars?

ETA: the golfers net worth is 20-25 million. He's a cheap bastard, and now everybody knows he's a cheap bastard.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 01:48:14 PM by accolay »

Jon Bon

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1360
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #64 on: February 19, 2019, 01:50:26 PM »
Why is this a debate and people are acting like the golpher is some type of victim? He admitted he was WRONG. He’s not debating it. He fucked up. He tried to take advantage of someone from a lower socioeconomic environment and was busted. Good. Like slumlords or anyone else trying to game the system so they can get over on someone, just because they can, they need to be called out and do the right thing.

Oddly, I would’ve thought the take would be how much this guy saved. Had his regular caddie showed up he would’ve paid $130k (plus I’d imagine covering expenses for the caddie), but he only ended up paying $50k! That’s a sweet extra $80k in his pocket! Talk about a double win.

Be frugal and financially responsible folks, don’t be a greedy prick.

OK yeah he might totally be a greedy prick I wont argue that.

How did he take advantage of him? Did he stiff him on the agreed on amount? Did he violate Mexican work rules? Did he break the law? Like come on he stiffed a guy on a tip. Hardly a crime for the "internet death penalty"

Yes he went in with a stronger bargaining position, but that is hardly unjust. He violated some social norms, but nothing about this was illegal or unjust.

partgypsy

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4597
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #65 on: February 19, 2019, 02:08:59 PM »
Legality and fairness are two different things. What he did was entirely legal. Was it fair or "just". Probably not.

And again just because someone can get away with it, doesn't mean they shouldn't be called out on it. Just common decency.

whitewaterchica

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 66
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #66 on: February 19, 2019, 02:16:19 PM »
Offering a different take (from someone who does not follow or play golf)...if Kuchar was in a drought for fours years and then finally had a win with this stand-in caddy- is there any chance this caddy DID play a role in his great performance?

Speaking from my perspective only (meaning I don't assume how I react to things is how others react to things), I would have tipped him really well simply because I would have been elated to win again.

nippycrisp

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 860
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #67 on: February 19, 2019, 07:00:59 PM »
Chiming in with some real facts because, as a group, you guys are butchering them.

- A PGA regular caddie generally gets a base of a couple thousand to cover travel, plus a percentage, usually increasing an usually 10% of a win as a max. The caddie here was local and had none of these expenses and none of the upside of a big payday.

- I understand the caddie carried the bag of another player who qualified for the tournament via a qualifying tournament that week. The qualifying "golpher" didn't hire him for the real tournament for some reason.

- Kuchar wasn't in a slump - he had six top tens the previous year. Not amazing, but solid form. Kuchar is a consistent guy, rarely spectacular but seldom awful. 

- Here's how a PGA tournament works: everyone travels there and plays two rounds. Then the bottom 50% of the field is cut and goes home with $0. The remaining 70 or so play two more rounds. Kuchar won and got a bit less than $1.3M. 72nd place (last to get $) made $14,112 and probably lost money after travel costs. 73rd and below got nothing. Assuming everyone had an equal chance of winning and distribution of finish was left to chance, the average payout probability would be $50,000 a player.   

I'm a red panda

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8197
  • Location: United States
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #68 on: February 19, 2019, 07:17:53 PM »
In sports, it's bizarre to assume everyone has an equal chance of winning. Ruins the EV calculation, but that's just never true.

Bloop Bloop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2139
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #69 on: February 19, 2019, 07:23:14 PM »
In sports, it's bizarre to assume everyone has an equal chance of winning. Ruins the EV calculation, but that's just never true.

A caddy is not a pro golfer. That's why one guy is raking in the millions whereas the other guy is packing up sticks for a living.

Nothing more than bargaining advantage in this thread.

Same reason I pay some dude $3 to deliver my food when I myself would never do that work for that money. Some people will. That's life.

golfreak12

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 366
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #70 on: February 19, 2019, 07:40:13 PM »
I don't understand why everyone keep mentioning the extra $1000 and not the extra $15K that Kuchar offered the guy.
He offered the caddie the extra $15K but was turned down before all the negative press.
I'm sorry but the average income in Mexico is like ~$11k per year. The caddie basically earned more than a year's salary with $16K.
What Kuchar made for winning is irrelevant to what he should pay out because the guy was not his regular caddie. He makes what he makes because hes talent enough to be a PRO golfer.
The agreement was $4K and Kuchar offered 4x that amount.
I honestly think Kuchar was smart enough after all the negative press to say I was wrong and be done with. He gave in not because he thinks hes wrong but to silence the criticism.

Case

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 812
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #71 on: February 19, 2019, 07:40:58 PM »
Also this is Mexico. $15K there is a whole lot more than $15K here.

See I really hoped I'd not have to go here in this discussion, that people would be reasonable and see that Kuchar tried to get away with paying less than the customary fee.

But this comment touches on the core issue that can't be danced around.  There are definite elements of racism, imperialism and exploitation at play here.  I had hoped not to have to point this out as it will probably lead to another rabbit hole but it's the crux of why this is such a compelling story.

As a thought experiment, it turns out that Kuchar's wife acted as an emergency fill-in caddy for Dustin Johnson for 9 holes at the same tournament.  Granted the scenarios are different, but suppose she caddied all 4 rounds and DJ won.  Do you think she and her husband would be happy with the payout Matt provided thinking it was generous??  I seriously doubt it.


Hopefully mods lock this thread soon. 

MrThatsDifferent

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2188
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #72 on: February 19, 2019, 11:08:10 PM »
Why is this a debate and people are acting like the golpher is some type of victim? He admitted he was WRONG. He’s not debating it. He fucked up. He tried to take advantage of someone from a lower socioeconomic environment and was busted. Good. Like slumlords or anyone else trying to game the system so they can get over on someone, just because they can, they need to be called out and do the right thing.

Oddly, I would’ve thought the take would be how much this guy saved. Had his regular caddie showed up he would’ve paid $130k (plus I’d imagine covering expenses for the caddie), but he only ended up paying $50k! That’s a sweet extra $80k in his pocket! Talk about a double win.

Be frugal and financially responsible folks, don’t be a greedy prick.

OK yeah he might totally be a greedy prick I wont argue that.

How did he take advantage of him? Did he stiff him on the agreed on amount? Did he violate Mexican work rules? Did he break the law? Like come on he stiffed a guy on a tip. Hardly a crime for the "internet death penalty"

Yes he went in with a stronger bargaining position, but that is hardly unjust. He violated some social norms, but nothing about this was illegal or unjust.

No, just immoral. There was no death penalty, he didn’t even lose a sponsor. He came to his senses, saw the inequality for what it was, as well as his insensitivity and he apologized and fixed it. He ended up doing the right thing, even if he didn’t have to. That’s morality versus legality.

Bloop Bloop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2139
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #73 on: February 19, 2019, 11:10:52 PM »
What's wrong with inequality, anyhow?
Like I said, how many of you, if you were taking a taxi in a third world country, would be happy to pay the cabbie a first world rate?
That's how life works.
FIRE necessitates some level of economic advantage. In my view, the more the merrier.

PDXTabs

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3214
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Portland, OR, USA
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #74 on: February 19, 2019, 11:43:25 PM »
The internet however thought differently. Apparently, the 'going rate' for a tip is 5-10%, closer to the 10% if he finishes in the top 10. The caddy was expecting a minimum of $50k for his weekends work, if not well into 6 figures, and by not paying it he has been castigated by the media as a miserly scrooge.

If you are a millionaire and you don't tip your waiter the going rate, are you a miserly scrooge? Probably.

accolay

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 982
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #75 on: February 20, 2019, 08:13:35 PM »
72nd place (last to get $) made $14,112 and probably lost money after travel costs.

Not to derail, and questioning honestly: how could you actually lose money with travel costs after a $14k payday?

Bloop Bloop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2139
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #76 on: February 20, 2019, 08:26:37 PM »
72nd place (last to get $) made $14,112 and probably lost money after travel costs.

Not to derail, and questioning honestly: how could you actually lose money with travel costs after a $14k payday?

Because you have to pay for flights to and from, accommodation for the duration of the event, and the imputed cost of your time as a professional.
I'm sure you could find budget airfares ($2k), budget accommodation ($1k) and that way still 'make a profit', but it's not much of a profit if you're one of the world's best pro golfers.

I think one has to remember that all these things are relative. What would be a break-even point for a person doing a side hustle is very different from a break-even point for someone who's an elite pro.


accolay

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 982
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #77 on: February 20, 2019, 08:45:23 PM »
72nd place (last to get $) made $14,112 and probably lost money after travel costs.

Not to derail, and questioning honestly: how could you actually lose money with travel costs after a $14k payday?

Because you have to pay for flights to and from, accommodation for the duration of the event, and the imputed cost of your time as a professional.
I'm sure you could find budget airfares ($2k), budget accommodation ($1k) and that way still 'make a profit', but it's not much of a profit if you're one of the world's best pro golfers.

I think one has to remember that all these things are relative. What would be a break-even point for a person doing a side hustle is very different from a break-even point for someone who's an elite pro.

I guess I could see it that way. But on the other hand... let me find my tiny violin because these guys are getting payed to play golf. What a world!

Paul der Krake

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5611
  • Age: 13
  • Location: UTC-10:00
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #78 on: February 20, 2019, 09:29:13 PM »
A tournament is usually over 4 days, and there are practice rounds early in the week. So realistically you're looking at an entire week on the road. Then for the top guys there are commitments from sponsors, media appearances, and all sorts of stuff that comes with being a public figure.

And they're not being paid to "play golf". You and I play golf, these guys obsess over golf. They study every single competitive advantage they can find, hit thousands of balls in practice, study film of their own swing, all day, every day. All this to make sure they stay in the top 100 players or whatever in the world because there are literally tens of thousands of scratch amateurs a couple strokes behind. To do this, they pay coaches, physical trainers, their caddie, and a bunch of other people.

This is true for virtually every pro sport, by the way. Tom Brady doesn't get paid millions of dollars to play 4 hours for 16 Sundays per year, it's for everything else he does the rest of the year. We just get to see the tip of the iceberg on TV.

So yeah, 14k gross prize money for a week of all that is not the glorious payday you think it is.



accolay

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 982
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #79 on: February 20, 2019, 09:50:24 PM »
And they're not being paid to "play golf". You and I play golf, these guys obsess over golf.

Not swaying my opinion. Sure, it's cool that these guys have followed their obsession, their dream and whatever. And I don't think that $14k is a glorious payday. Good for them for getting where they are and able to make money doing what they love. But don't ask me to give a shit because they only made 14k during this tournament. Where is that fucking tiny violin?

Bloop Bloop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2139
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #80 on: February 20, 2019, 10:05:55 PM »
No one's asking you to weep for the golfers. The argument is that simply by virtue of their immense talent, they operate in a world of expenses (and also revenue) that is beyond the scope of most average punters. Which is why they command high price-points. A random caddy at a resort in Mexico doesn't command the same. Which is why there's an inequality in bargaining position.

This explains why an amount like $14,000 might seem puny to a pro golfer but it might be lots and lots of money for Joe Average who has no elite skills and no elite commitment. That might not garner any sympathy from you, but the point is to explain the difference between the mediocre and the elite, not to gain sympathy for the latter.

It also explains why the elite are entitled to bargain for more and command more: they've earned it.

Little Aussie Battler

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 229
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #81 on: February 20, 2019, 11:19:45 PM »
72nd place (last to get $) made $14,112 and probably lost money after travel costs.

Not to derail, and questioning honestly: how could you actually lose money with travel costs after a $14k payday?
You probably don't, but it could be closer than you think.

Base pay to the caddie of $1-2k for the week, plus another $700 as a share of the prize money.

Probably a % cut to your agent - no idea how much.

Flights and accommodation for a week. Could include travel costs for your family if you don't want to be alone for 30 weeks of the year.

Standard household costs which you still need to cover even while you are away - mortgage/rent, utilities, insurance, etc.

Weekly cost of other annual expenses - coach, trainer, equipment not covered by a sponsor (e.g. Trackman)

I agree that you shouldn't break out the violin, but there are a lot of costs associated with being a professional sportsperson that probably aren't immediately apparent.

partgypsy

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4597
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #82 on: February 21, 2019, 07:53:40 AM »
"A random caddy at a resort in Mexico doesn't command the same. Which is why there's an inequality in bargaining position."
Just to give the "random caddy" some humanity. He's actually the caddy coordinator for the Camelon golf course and the Mayoba tournament director is the one who recommended him to Kuchar. He has caddied for other professionals in tournaments before. I'm thinking he knows his job a little better than a "random caddy", especially for that particular course. Kuchar also said if he returned to defend the Mayoba title that Ortiz would carry his bag. Sounds like an endorsement to me.
 
https://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/2018/11/13/matt-kuchar-mayakoba-caddie-18-things-to-know-el-tucan/
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 07:56:20 AM by partgypsy »

Bloop Bloop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2139
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #83 on: February 21, 2019, 08:24:10 AM »
That's fine. He's worth whatever he bargained for, which seems to me to have been $4,000 which isn't a terrible figure for a week's work in most people's language.

bacchi

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5926
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #84 on: February 21, 2019, 09:29:34 AM »
That's fine. He's worth whatever he bargained for, which seems to me to have been $4,000 which isn't a terrible figure for a week's work in most people's language.

It also speaks to the caddie's expertise. If he's caddied for other professionals, then he wasn't some noob that didn't know about the fee arrangements. He negotiated from a position of knowledge. It was only after the internet media got a hold of it that he demanded more.

I'm a red panda

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8197
  • Location: United States
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #85 on: February 21, 2019, 09:41:08 AM »
That's fine. He's worth whatever he bargained for, which seems to me to have been $4,000 which isn't a terrible figure for a week's work in most people's language.

It also speaks to the caddie's expertise. If he's caddied for other professionals, then he wasn't some noob that didn't know about the fee arrangements. He negotiated from a position of knowledge. It was only after the internet media got a hold of it that he demanded more.

I thought the order of the events was different: Didn't he demand more, and then send it to the media when denied? 




partgypsy

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4597
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #86 on: February 21, 2019, 10:12:48 AM »
The reports I read, is that they DID agree to a pay structure, that ended with 4K for a top ten win. The problem is that their agreement did not cover anything beyond a 10 ten win, which is where the bonuses/tips become substantial. It wasn't that Ortiz agreed to 4K max. He assumed that those customary bonuses would come into play. Kuchar did not.  It was a mistake on BOTH their parts. And honestly if he told his caddie up front that all he was going to pay him is 4K max even if he won the tournament, that makes him a jerk in my book. 

Kuchar felt 1K tip or bonus in addition to the 4K agreed price was sufficient. A pro golfer's regular caddie would be tipped 10%, or 130K. Ortiz felt the 1K tip was insulting.
Ortiz feels 50K is fair (3.8%) Kuchar offers 15K. Ortiz refuses.
Months later (under public pressure) he agrees to pay 50K.


GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 18864
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #87 on: February 22, 2019, 08:49:28 AM »
Tipping is a disgusting practice that should be abolished.

partdopy

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 138
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #88 on: February 22, 2019, 12:33:45 PM »
Funny that it is OK for the golfer to expect over a million for a weekend's work, but ridiculous for the caddy to expect $50k.

Pretty sure he 'expected' what the market is willing to pay for his services.  If he pays below market for his caddy, I wouldn't expect he'll get the best the market has to offer.

Or is it not OK to expect to make what the market will bear in 2019?

Part of the problem is sounded like the agreement didn't cover the situation. It wasn't discussed.
"Kuchar says it was a layered structure beginning with $1,000 for a missed cut, $2,000 for a made cut, $3,000 for a top 20 and $4,000 for a top 10. What the caddie would receive for a win was not discussed."
"The extra $1,000 was, 'Thank you — it was a great week.' lol- for at least one of them.

So, he pays him the 4K for making the top 10. Wins the entire tourney, and gives him a 1K tip. Which apparently everyone considered ridiculous. Another thing missing, even Ortiz did not think he should be paid what a long-term caddie would make which was 10%. He requested 4% which he thought was reasonable. 
So from a market perspective yes the caddy should get more. You may think it's ridiculous, but the whole pay structure for professional sports is ridiculous.

A massive part of the worldwide population disagrees that it's ridiculous, or they wouldn't be buying the merchandise, tickets, and cable packages that support said pay structure.

It's the market rate for athletes.  If it wasn't, then pay would go down.  There's plenty of smaller leagues that pay regular wages, and most seem to go bankrupt as the market doesn't support that model.

Bloop Bloop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2139
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #89 on: February 22, 2019, 05:49:31 PM »
I don't think the pay structure for pro athletes is ridiculous. It's just exponential, because it's entirely based on merit. You have a few superstars around the globe who command tremendous sums because they are a standard deviation above all the rest of humanity.

Frankly I'd like normal pay structures to be more like those in pro sports - more heavily merit-based, and more proportional to the rarity of one's talent.

golfreak12

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 366
Re: Pro golfer 'stiffs' caddy, becomes pariah. Thoughts?
« Reply #90 on: February 22, 2019, 09:49:34 PM »
The reports I read, is that they DID agree to a pay structure, that ended with 4K for a top ten win. The problem is that their agreement did not cover anything beyond a 10 ten win, which is where the bonuses/tips become substantial. It wasn't that Ortiz agreed to 4K max. He assumed that those customary bonuses would come into play. Kuchar did not.  It was a mistake on BOTH their parts. And honestly if he told his caddie up front that all he was going to pay him is 4K max even if he won the tournament, that makes him a jerk in my book. 

Kuchar felt 1K tip or bonus in addition to the 4K agreed price was sufficient. A pro golfer's regular caddie would be tipped 10%, or 130K. Ortiz felt the 1K tip was insulting.
Ortiz feels 50K is fair (3.8%) Kuchar offers 15K. Ortiz refuses.
Months later (under public pressure) he agrees to pay 50K.

From the article I've read it was Kuchar offered $15K when he felt Ortiz deserved more after the initial $5K
Ortiz then asked for $50K which was why Kuchar told him to shove it in the first place.