The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: coppertop on February 06, 2015, 12:13:26 PM
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In reading through and seeing that most people who post here are maxing their 401(k)'s at $18,000, I realize to my chagrin that I am an "old person" here (at age 59). Are there no 'oldster' mustachians? Are the Baby Boomers either so rich or so clueless that they don't need to learn and practice these principles too? I look around at work and realize that we have people who have been slaving here for 40 years or more who are beyond full retirement age and still have to work to survive. It's depressing. I, myself, am hoping to be out of here by age 62 at the very latest. I will do it sooner if I can.
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I think you're right that you're on the older end of this forum's audience, but I see quite a few people in your age group posting here. Many of us have focused on the benefits of frugality and saving from a young age, while others go through years or decades as typical consumers and don't see the light until later. Better late than never!
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Welcome! You're not alone. I'm 52 and still working full-time, and there are a bunch of others in their 50s and a few in their 60s. Some of us only started seriously saving recently. I've been a saver, but not like the folks here. I won't be able to retire very soon, but being here has helped me realize that I'm not condemned to slave away until I'm 67 or 70. If the world doesn't turn upside down, I can cut back in a few years, and maybe be completely free by 60. Wish I had started years ago--but at least I'm on the way.
I have a sister age 57 who's very Mustachian, although she doesn't call it that. She could retire any time, but her husband has a sweet situation that he likes and pays really well, and so she works while he's working, but part-time.
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Look at it this way - if you're here at least you've recognized the benefits of frugality! Now you know you don't need $5M to retire. You're already better off than the vast majority of Americans recognizing this. Keep saving and enjoy the rest of your life being in the know!
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Hi Coppertop:
There are Boomers here, I'm 57, but I sure don't think we are the majority. A nice change after having been part of a crowd my whole life.
2ndTimer
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In reading through and seeing that most people who post here are maxing their 401(k)'s at $18,000, I realize to my chagrin that I am an "old person" here (at age 59). Are there no 'oldster' mustachians? Are the Baby Boomers either so rich or so clueless that they don't need to learn and practice these principles too? I look around at work and realize that we have people who have been slaving here for 40 years or more who are beyond full retirement age and still have to work to survive. It's depressing. I, myself, am hoping to be out of here by age 62 at the very latest. I will do it sooner if I can.
Sorry if this is obvious to everyone else, but what is the point you are making about maxing out 401Ks and age? Do "old people" not max out their 401Ks?
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In reading through and seeing that most people who post here are maxing their 401(k)'s at $18,000, I realize to my chagrin that I am an "old person" here (at age 59). Are there no 'oldster' mustachians? Are the Baby Boomers either so rich or so clueless that they don't need to learn and practice these principles too? I look around at work and realize that we have people who have been slaving here for 40 years or more who are beyond full retirement age and still have to work to survive. It's depressing. I, myself, am hoping to be out of here by age 62 at the very latest. I will do it sooner if I can.
Sorry if this is obvious to everyone else, but what is the point you are making about maxing out 401Ks and age? Do "old people" not max out their 401Ks?
Can't speak for the OP, but if I'd maxed my 401k when I was younger, I'd be a lot further ahead than I am now. Maxing it now doesn't have the same compounding effect.
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In reading through and seeing that most people who post here are maxing their 401(k)'s at $18,000, I realize to my chagrin that I am an "old person" here (at age 59). Are there no 'oldster' mustachians? Are the Baby Boomers either so rich or so clueless that they don't need to learn and practice these principles too? I look around at work and realize that we have people who have been slaving here for 40 years or more who are beyond full retirement age and still have to work to survive. It's depressing. I, myself, am hoping to be out of here by age 62 at the very latest. I will do it sooner if I can.
Sorry if this is obvious to everyone else, but what is the point you are making about maxing out 401Ks and age? Do "old people" not max out their 401Ks?
The limit is higher. $18K for us youngs, $24K for the olds. The cutoff is age 50.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/2015-brings-higher-contribution-limits-for-401k-retirement-plans/
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I am in Coppertops demo too and have been in and out of this site for about a year. While I don't consider it RE, I have basically let my consulting business achieve "0 customers" while providing "100% customer satisfaction". My spouse has hit her stride in our high earning years and my accountant convinced me that by the time he gets done plugging in her W2, I basically need to make $2.50 to get another $1 to spend. We also don't max out our 401K, but we never skipped contributing either. What I have learned from MMM is that we probably have already hit a sustainable stache that coupled with SS and pensions from the first half of our careers, can see us through from 65 till the last train pulls out of the station. Now our efforts are focused on having no debt, eliminatiing the mortgage and getting through about a decade of expenses without touching any principal.
The "common denominator" I enjoy on this thread is a sense of accountability and self reliance I find among the different age groups, incomes and net worths. I thought, for a while, we would all share similar political viewpoints... however a stroll down some threads regarding "what is middle class", "Obamacare" or other hot topics indicates this board is peopled by social justice warriors and hedge fund managers, red state conservatives and blue state urban hipsters, evangelicals and religion deniers...but for the most part, people who I perceive try to "do no harm" in their day to day lives...
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I'm in a weird place. Sometimes I feel old here (42). The other FIRE-related board I post on (ER.org) I feel a little bit shunned because it skews older there.
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I'm soon to be 50 and know what you mean about feeling on the older side here. It took me a bit of time to realize that I needed to change my focus to retiring in X years instead of retiring at a certain age. Guess I am a wee bit jealous of the young pups!
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Sorry if this is obvious to everyone else, but what is the point you are making about maxing out 401Ks and age? Do "old people" not max out their 401Ks?
The limit is higher. $18K for us youngs, $24K for the olds. The cutoff is age 50.
aha! thanks for clarifying!
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I'm 50( last year of the boomers) and playing catch-up with the extra 5k a year maxing out my 401k along with the wife's. Got a lot smarter the last few years and you can catch up pretty quick by buckling down and following a lot of the things around the forums.
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Yes, there are a number of boomers here. Some, like me, did retire early (but not that early). Some have only recently understood frugality, and are working through their spending habits so that they will have a decent retirement, even if they don't retire early. We can all learn from everyone, and enjoy helping others no matter what their age.
To a certain extent I think it is more difficult to embrace frugality when you are older. You probably have a greater accumulation of stuff - whether it is physical (big house, big car...), or loans. You probably have teenage children who expect to have their college paid for, and expect the lifestyle you have created for them not to change materially. You may be more set in your ways, so it is more difficult to extract yourself from spendy habits. Your network of friendships might depend to a certain extent upon spendy habits. You are less able to develop different friendships, as you are a fixture - where you live, what you do...
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Baby boomer here. I'm 61 and no I have never maxed out my 401k (or in my case, 403B). I never made enough money to, although I have lived pretty mustachian over the years. I have put away 10% since my hospital first started one and then raised it over the years to 20%. Also, my husband and I both had a house when we married so we sold mine to buy a bigger house and then kept his as a rental.
I knew we never were going to retire very early, but I wanted to make sure when we did we would have enough to live comfortably on. Thanks to this site, I realized that I can retire in April because I did the math. I have enjoyed my career over the years, but I am ready to have time for other things.
Glad to see other boomers as I was starting to feel like I was one of very few here.
Miss Prim
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45 here, so although born in the sixties I am officially too young to be a boomer. I do see that there are a lot of youngish families here and people just starting out their careers - which is great! I wish I knew then what I am learning now. I think the needs and focus do change some w/ age. I am looking at how do I pay off my house before my kids start college? How do I recover financially from divorce and the ridiculous ongoing legal costs? But fairly settled into career and not likely (gosh, I hope) to see much change there. I do not worry about what car will fit car seats. I do worry about what car will hold 6' tall children in the backseat. :P
If I retire "early" at 60 I will be surprised. Fortunately, I love my career. I just want to be in a place financially where I have more options than I have currently.
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42, FIRED in 2014, never ever maxed out my 401k. I even knew I should but felt like I didn't want to lock away THAT much money.
Cough(Idiot);
I did contribute - approx $10k per year ($14k w employer match). Yeah - if I had it to do all over again? I'd max it out. So, you're not alone in that regard.
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I'll speak only to my parents' experience (~60yo). They lack a big nest egg, and vacillate between (a) trusting the government to provide an old age pension and (b) freaking out that the government will not continue to provide the old age pension (or that its value will decline against inflation) and their own savings will not suffice, but not being willing to consider radical alternatives to their current middle-class spendiness.
They have a deep sense of shame over not being 'successful', defined as having the wealth of the wealthiest household in their peer group, and so paradoxically refuse to consider alternatives to their current course which would help them close the gap. Doing so would require them to confront those feelings of inadequacy and acknowledge poor decisions they have made in the past, which is a very daunting prospect.
This plus a very long habit of lifestyle inflation and hedonic adaptation make the kinds of changes MMM recommends very difficult to accept; thus, my parents would never consider joining this forum.
I, much younger, am more sceptical of government's ability to provide an acceptable standard of living in retirement, started with a shorter history of hedonic adaptation and carry less emotional baggage about my finances, all of which make mustachian ideas more agreeable to me than to my parents. I also have more to gain from early retirement - potentially as much as twenty or more years if I play my cards right.
If my experience as contrasted with my parents' experience can be generalised to the broader population, then those differences might explain why this board skews young. =)
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I'm 46 and I didn't max out my 401k and Roth IRA every year. I'd say I have at least 15 of the last 20. Focused on being debt free from an early age with a pay as you go mentality. The last 3 years we've focused more on saving. Now I'm somewhat addicted to saving. I'm not sure when I'll quit working because, I'm really not sure I can spend the savings after wating them grow for decades. Kinda like eating a pet calf. My target dste is 2018 and my target number is 2M. We're at 1.2M +400k paid off real estate. I don't count the real estate since it doesn't produce money for me. That puts me at needing to raise 800K in 3 years. It's still possible depending on the market. My goal is to save 100k this year plus whatever my investments return. Those aren't Mustacian numbers I know, but I'm making sure I leave legacy funds to my favorite charity. I'm planning a 3% withdrawl rate, so 60k a year from 2M. I don't think I'll need more than that. I'm living on less now with the savings I'm investing.
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54 and happy to see someone promoting what I (and my housemates) were doing instinctively thirty years ago.
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I should have added too, that I love my job, so will not retire until I feel incapable of doing it well. For those of you who are young, I want to say that saving and investing early is so very important. I know that I could walk away from my job if I needed to; I can pay for my kid's college no matter where he wants to go; hell, I can pay for my horse. A lot of this comes from being a one-car family for years, walking or biking to work, taking lunch, buying less house than we were approved to by, and maxing out 403b accounts--doing all the things MMM says to do.
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I'm atypical here as well.
Before posting a link, I will search the site to see if anyone else has already posted it.
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I'm atypical here as well.
Before posting a link, I will search the site to see if anyone else has already posted it.
What link? The one on contribution limits is the only one I see in the thread. IMO there's no problem with posting links more than once on the forum.
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Hi. I'm 49, not quite a boomer. Reading here has made me realize I do not need to wait until 65 to retire. I'm hoping for 55, but it will be 59.5 at the latest. Last year was the first year I maxed out my 403b at 17.5K and this year I'm eligible to contribute 24K! But I don't think I'll be able to do it. I started out the year on track but then got really nervous that my emergency fund is lacking so scaled the 403b contributions way back while I pump up the emergency fund. Once that's at an acceptable level I'll try to catch up on the 403b and hopefully will be able to make it to 20K.
I so wish I had been maxing out my whole career, but have to look forward rather than back.
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I’m old too! I’m also atypical in that I didn’t get a degree and a career until I was in my late 30’s – older than the retirement age for many people on this site. Sometimes, while reading in this forum, I’ll think I really screwed myself by not making better use of my resources when young. But that’s water under the bridge, and I know it’s never too late to change. I expect to be done by the time I’m 62 also, although I’d survive OK if I lost my job now. Other than the major age and career differences, I find that people on this site share a similar mindset with me, more so than my friends, family, and co-workers.
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I'm 48, an early Generation Xer, but my husband is the OP's age. He plans to retire at the usual 65. What MMM has taught me is that I can retire with him at 54. We paid off our mortgage in November and have begun aggressively saving to make this happen so that I don't have to touch my pension, 401k and Roth IRA until I hit the usual age for them. I'm also tentatively starting to write professionally and hopefully I can grow that as well so I can avoid having to "work."
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I just wanted to chime in that I love the diversity of ages on this forum. Some of these young kids are so amazing on here--they make me proud. Biking, building their own homes, and saving like mad. And of course there are some older and wiser voices that take the time to explain the mistakes they have made and offer honest dialogues that I find very valuable.
I wish I had known about MMM sooner, but in the last year WOW what a difference. I look at things differently now and am measuring success differently. We had a family dinner last night with kids (ages 20 and 16) featuring a chicken I roasted myself and homemade bread. No cell phones, no TV, fire in the fireplace. This is success. Learning to mend clothes and having my daughter get excited about wearing her grandmother's remade duds--this is success. Riding my bike to the store and realizing that this is how I want to spend my days--a little more slowly, with less stuff and more time.
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OP, it's my belief that many people of the ''boomers'' generation either struggle with their retirement OR have received generous contributions from their employers, if they were lucky. But this is starting to change. I guess it will bring more people of my generation (I'm 29) to depend on nobody else but ourselves to build our wealth and secure our retirement, since we can't aspire to get the same generous retirement funds and conditions that our parents had. The economy scared me enough that I decided to take full responsability for my future and remain frugal in my lifestyle. I've been living like this out of necessity for most of my 20s (student), and now that I've just recently started my career, I feel I might as well keep this lifestyle because I'm aware of all the benefits, freedom and happiness it can offer me (and that heavy consumerism wouldn't). It's really nice for me to read the good advices of experienced people,I set them as healthy financial models and inspiring examples of workers and investors - overall, they're the kind of wise, responsible and fulfilled adult that I want to be, too. :)
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Baby-boomer at age 57 here. We planned for what we thought was early retirement when we were in our 20s, but early retirement for us meant 55 (the earliest that DH would be able to draw a pension and receive retiree medical). We maxed out our profit sharing (which later became a 401k) as soon as we were eligible (a year after hire) and continued maxing until we realized that our retirement accounts were going to be tax-deferred top heavy; then we cut back to contributing enough to get the match.
Now we are in the process of doing Roth conversions every year.
I too love to read the posts from the younger crowd. I would have loved a forum like this in our younger years as I really had no one to talk to/share with regarding frugal living. Most of our friends/colleagues were "yuppies" that were very busy KUWJ. We let them assume that we just could not KU (buying a lot less house than we could afford and buying gently used cars and driving them until they died).
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I'll be 50 in a couple years. I think the thing that makes me atypical is that I'm pretty slow to adopt the more frugal ways. But I keep trying. This might be the year that I get back to really being frugal, as opposed to just thinking I am because I live within my means.
I'm so impressed by the people who have made meaningful changes and realized the goals they've set for themselves. For me, my goals have been so ill-defined that I never really know if I hit them. I've known that I wanted to retire before I die, but now I'm starting to see that based on my current progress, I can probably retire at 60 and live very comfortably. I'm trying to reduce that number and it should be easy because there is so much fat in my budget that I could reduce, but I haven't figured out yet what I want to cut out of my budget.
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I have never posted here but have followed these boards for a long time. Also atypical here. I am 55, married with two young children, one of whom is disabled. I wish that I'd have been more frugal during my life, but I certainly had a lot of fun, and also a lot of challenges. However, we are now debt free and own our home in So. California outright (rare around here in the land of $600K homes). So that's a great and we have about $150K saved for retirement. I work for the feds but no matter how long I work will never have much of a retirement pension. In fact, could retire in a few months but would only get $350 a month, not enough to factor into any equation. My plan is to max out my tsp (4o1K for govt) this year and really get serious and badass about saving and cutting back. There was a time I thought I'd have to work til 70, now I am seriously going to try and retire in 4 years, when I turn 60). My husband wants to work until he's quite old, and due to the nature of his work, as long as his mind stays intact, he probably could, so that's a source of reliable income. I just wanted to say hi, that there are a lot of people out in the MMM world who are not in their 20's, but for whom early retirement means in their 50s or 60's rather than never! I was raised by very resourceful and frugal parents, so just need to return to my roots!
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Well I like it here even if I am atypical. I am 50 years old and found this forum almost 2 years ago. This place has changed my life so I don't care if I am old here. I am saving about 30% of my income and putting it into my RRSP. I enjoy the forum cameraderie greatly and see that I have more choices than I thought I did. I used to think I would have to work until 65 but it may be only 56. Not great for an early retirement site but pretty good for a person with an average income getting a late start on things.
Cheers everybody!
Pachnik
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For those of you near or over 50. I think it would be worthwhile to checkout www.early-retirement.org. The average age on the forum is about 50 and I think in many cases the discussion on the forum might be more relevant over there than on MMM. For example there is a lot of discussion about when to take social security, and when to take a lump sum vs annuity, and ACA subsidies.
I think MMM has a lot of great information about getting started in savings, ways of saving money, and changing your lifestyle. I thing ER.org is better for those near retirement and 50 an older.
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HI, I am 60 & my hubby 55. We retired almost 3 years ago. I started my career late in life so was not sick of working but sick of the 9-5 gig & all the state rules. We both are semi-retired now working for ourselves. However, I have just contracted to work in my old position until they find someone qualified which means between that, teaching at the univ & my private work I am now working about 60 hours/week. Usually I work between 10-20. I also think it is awesome that many young people here are really taking charge of their destinies. The only problem I see is that some of the young posters want to retire at a young age with very little $ & I think eventually they will be sorry & get sick of living a very stark lifestyle. I find that as I get older I want to travel more, have more experiences, eat out more, etc but do not want very many material things. We have downsized our home to a one level ranch (1400 sq ft) that we can age in place in. I find more people my own age at Er forum. However, I think it is more interesting when you have a forum with a variety of people.
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Add another boomer to the mix. What this means? We got to see all the cool bands!!! Woo!
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50ish also. I've always been a saver (perhaps not frugal to the extreme) but was very very ill and out of work for several years during my mid 30s-mid 40s. The good news is that (a) I recovered and (b) never had to declare bankruptcy due to medical bills or because I wasn't working. I lived very frugally off of my savings when I was out of the workforce. (Single and no family support, btw.)
I am back in the full-time workforce as of about 6.5 years ago. I have A LOT of making up to do to build up my depleted savings and to hopefully gain financial independence in the next several years (dreaming of 6!!!). I don't think I'll retire very early, but I'm so grateful that because of being a MMM'er as a young person and not even knowing it, I was able to survive a bad disease that crushes many physically and/or financially.
We all have our stories. You aren't alone.
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I'm atypical here as well.
Before posting a link, I will search the site to see if anyone else has already posted it.
What are you, some kind of nut?
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OP, it's my belief that many people of the ''boomers'' generation either struggle with their retirement OR have received generous contributions from their employers, if they were lucky. But this is starting to change. I guess it will bring more people of my generation (I'm 29) to depend on nobody else but ourselves to build our wealth and secure our retirement, since we can't aspire to get the same generous retirement funds and conditions that our parents had.
The Baby Boom spans such a very, very long time that it is hard to generalize in the way you have. For example, my husband who just turned 50 a few months ago is part of the baby boom and so is his mother who recently turned 70. They are not part of the same generation so why are they both considered part of the baby boom with similar identities? They didn't have the same formative experiences. When we graduated high school it was into recession with bank failures, the S&L crisis, and threats to end social security and recommended cuts to just about every social safety net. We very much felt that we could never get the same generous retirement funds previous generations got and that we were on our own. By contrast, my husband's mother graduated into a time of great prosperity.
My husband and I will not struggle with our retirement. We straightened ourselves out in the 90s, got rid of mountains of debt, and began saving with a plan to retire when my husband hit 55. We have enough now to retire, five years early. And it's not because of generous employers. It is because we got the big things right, by living for years in small apartments with no car while investing 20% to 50% of what we made.
You may not realize that it used to be a lot more expensive to invest. Most people couldn't get 401K plans from employers. Getting information on mutual funds and putting enough of a stake together to get invested in one was hard, especially for those of us with low incomes. Investing in individual stocks was also expensive and difficult. All that has changed. You have a lot more going for you than we had when we started investing.
There has always been a movement toward simple living and frugality in the United States. It is part of the dialectic of our nation. Today there is MMM and ERE. When I poked my head out and looked around in the early 80s it was Voluntary Simplicity; in the 90s: Your Money or Your Life, and How to Survive Without a Salary (not to mention the Tightwad Gazette). In the 60s there was a massive DIY and simple living mass movement. We are all inheritors of the ideas from Walden Pond. The medium changes, but the message continues on. :)
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"You may not realize that it used to be a lot more expensive to invest. Most people couldn't get 401K plans from employers. Getting information on mutual funds and putting enough of a stake together to get invested in one was hard, especially for those of us with low incomes. Investing in individual stocks was also expensive and difficult. All that has changed. You have a lot more going for you than we had when we started investing."
I will add it was largely a paper based transaction as well. Had to request the forms (initially anyway), wait till they came, fill them out, write a check, find an envelop and stamp (hey, I was 23 and single!) mail it off and wait for acknowledgement 10 days later! I lost half my "nut" on one stock before I even got order acknowledgement! Should have spent it on girls and booze!
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Hey Coppertop...another Boomer here, almost 54...sounds like there's a few of us graybeards on here :-). We're pretty much FI now, just working a couple more years while youngest finishes school. Keep up the effort. Retiring comfortably at 62 is whole bunch better than most folks (not most folks on these boards, but most folks in general) can look forward to.
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Well said Metta. Even hubs and I - he is 13 years older than I and on the leading edge of the boomers and I on the trailing end...we have vastly different life experiences. As oldest child he caught more of the frugal 'poor is we' gene from middle income mfg. 1 working parent w/a family of 7 and I (youngest child) caught more aspirtational/educational influences from 2 college educated professionals income parents w/a family of 5. One of the things I learned from him? Being content with what you have. Aspire to more or better? Fine, but don't let that discolor the gorgeousness/blessings of what you already have accomplished. What I did have going for me on one side of the parental units is a great-grandmother and grandmother that were strong independent business women who both had strong frugal genes.
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I think there are MANY of us 50+ on this site! I'm 51. Early Retirement to me is 55-60 instead of 65.
To me, EXTREME Early Retirement is being fully retired before 50. Many of the people on here that are below 50 are not fully retired, but do some type of home based part time work, intermittent contract gigs, real-estate management, house flipping, etc.
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I'm 58. Just got serious about frugality/saving/investing a bit over a year ago. Can't retire until 67, but I can use the lessons learned here to live a better, more frugal, less stressed life. If I play my cards right, I won't have to work at Walmart after I retire.
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51. 1M in investments, 1.3 with paid off house NW. I plan on working until 60. Would love to go earlier but remain very concerned about healthcare costs in future. I want to see how that pans out.
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I'm 56 (December), and found MMM early last year when I was still 55. It was like getting a slap in the face, with a "WAKE UP"! yell.
I didn't get real serious until I read his entire blog, and started taking steps to prepare for retirement. I wish to heck I had started maximizing towards that goal a lot sooner, as I only have 1/2 the amount I would like to have set aside.
Now, it's a real source of mental anxiety and some generalized panic, even though I should be fine as long as I don't lose my job anytime soon. I haven't quite convinced my brain as of yet that we'll be OK, as there's not a whole lot of time left to get that money socked away.
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I'm 58 and retired with a government pension at 47. I enjoyed six months of retirement , then went back to work part time. I dedicated most of that part time salary to retirement and part to vacations. My husband and I have enjoyed several nice vacations and we feel we have enough in retirement accounts to allow him to retire this year at age 60. I will continue to work my part time job (25 hours a week), as he will not be drawing any pension money until age 65. Also, as long as I am working I can cover his health insurance for $250 dollars a month. It would cost almost 700 to add him to my insurance If I am not working. I am lucky to have fairly flexible hours with my job. Its a little scary, that I could get laid off of get sick, right after he retires... but that is where the savings accounts will come into play.
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One guy on that site has a whole thread on how him & his wife retired on very little 35 years ago. Some have extravagant lifestyles but I think quite a few are middle of the road people who want to spend $50-60,000 in retirement to enjoy doing things while they can. This is where my hubby & I fit in because at our ages we want to travel & do experiences that cost $ while we are able. You just do not know what the future holds. YOunger retirees don't need to worry about this as much. Also I have a certain level of comfort that I want now versus when I was young.
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For those of you near or over 50. I think it would be worthwhile to checkout www.early-retirement.org. The average age on the forum is about 50 and I think in many cases the discussion on the forum might be more relevant over there than on MMM. For example there is a lot of discussion about when to take social security, and when to take a lump sum vs annuity, and ACA subsidies.
I think MMM has a lot of great information about getting started in savings, ways of saving money, and changing your lifestyle. I thing ER.org is better for those near retirement and 50 an older.
The problem with ER.org is that they are a very high spending group. Most seem to want and have expensive lifestyles that they plan to continue on in retirement. MMM, and especially ERE, both focus more on finding a nice life on less money and thus be able to retire younger with less money. ER.org seems the opposite to me. They seem to have high earnings and high asset levels and a belief that you need both in order to retire at even a normal age (65) because you'll have and want a more upscale lifestyle in retirement.
Not really true many member have retired early and are living on 15-25K, with assets well under $1 million. It certainly true that ER.org has plenty of millionaires and don't have the need to watch every dollar. But it is pretty rare ER member who hasn't been pretty frugal in their 20s. I bought my first house at 23, with co-owner and 3 roommates in order to save money. I believe there was poll down a while ago and the average age of the car was about 12 years,and represented a few percent of peoples net worth.
Health insurance cost are huge expense for the 50+ crowd and generally not a big expense for the 25-40. (Mine have gone from $1500-$4800 in 15 years) Maybe I've missed but I have not seen much discussion of ACA subsidies on MMM.
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For those of you near or over 50. I think it would be worthwhile to checkout www.early-retirement.org. The average age on the forum is about 50 and I think in many cases the discussion on the forum might be more relevant over there than on MMM. For example there is a lot of discussion about when to take social security, and when to take a lump sum vs annuity, and ACA subsidies.
I think MMM has a lot of great information about getting started in savings, ways of saving money, and changing your lifestyle. I thing ER.org is better for those near retirement and 50 an older.
The problem with ER.org is that they are a very high spending group. Most seem to want and have expensive lifestyles that they plan to continue on in retirement. MMM, and especially ERE, both focus more on finding a nice life on less money and thus be able to retire younger with less money. ER.org seems the opposite to me. They seem to have high earnings and high asset levels and a belief that you need both in order to retire at even a normal age (65) because you'll have and want a more upscale lifestyle in retirement.
I thought the same about ER.org. It is certainly worth a look, but it's not a better fit based on age. My assets will fund a frugal retirement, which suits me because simple living is my preference. No reason we can't read both.
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This is a great thread. I love hearing your guys advice. It really drives the point home. Especially the truth of compounding and maxing out your retirement accounts. It really helps us "younger" guys maintain the course.
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I am definitely atypical here.
I am a boomer (age 56).
I got to a stage of FI about 6 years ago - but I still continue to work (basically full time).
I am frugal in somethings (eg, I don't have a flashy car, travel business class or wear designer suits), but seem to freely spend money on other things (I like to live in a nice place, send my children to private schools). I estimate in retirement, I would spend about US$140,000 a year).
So although I am atypical, I do like to learn from others and read what others are doing to get the most out of their lives.
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45 year old here. 3.2 million USD in savings, but for various reasons, no pension or property, as have been on expat contracts just about whole working life.
FI, if we moved, but my wife is not keen to move... Oh well.
One thing that I am cautious on is inflation - e.g.prices for a specific thing I was looking at are up 49% since 2004, annual average of 3.4%. Inflation proofing the future is very expensive.
My father ER'ed at 51, and he is my inspiration - heck, he built a DIY indexed link gilt ladder almost 30 years ago that still is in place for my mother. They were always frugal - my mother called up yesterday annoyed that one of her investment trusts was moving to a 0.5% annual fee, so she is switching to a provider that is flat fee...
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In reading through and seeing that most people who post here are maxing their 401(k)'s at $18,000, I realize to my chagrin that I am an "old person" here (at age 59). Are there no 'oldster' mustachians? Are the Baby Boomers either so rich or so clueless that they don't need to learn and practice these principles too? I look around at work and realize that we have people who have been slaving here for 40 years or more who are beyond full retirement age and still have to work to survive. It's depressing. I, myself, am hoping to be out of here by age 62 at the very latest. I will do it sooner if I can.
Sorry if this is obvious to everyone else, but what is the point you are making about maxing out 401Ks and age? Do "old people" not max out their 401Ks?
The people I know IRL don't. I prepare payroll and I know what everyone makes and how old they are ... and very few of them max out their 401(k)'s. I am one of the few here who do ... and I am not one of the highly-compensated professionals; I am a plebe. I find it amazing that people making several hundred thousand a year don't take advantage of that tax benefit.
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In reading through and seeing that most people who post here are maxing their 401(k)'s at $18,000, I realize to my chagrin that I am an "old person" here (at age 59). Are there no 'oldster' mustachians? Are the Baby Boomers either so rich or so clueless that they don't need to learn and practice these principles too? I look around at work and realize that we have people who have been slaving here for 40 years or more who are beyond full retirement age and still have to work to survive. It's depressing. I, myself, am hoping to be out of here by age 62 at the very latest. I will do it sooner if I can.
Sorry if this is obvious to everyone else, but what is the point you are making about maxing out 401Ks and age? Do "old people" not max out their 401Ks?
The people I know IRL don't. I prepare payroll and I know what everyone makes and how old they are ... and very few of them max out their 401(k)'s. I am one of the few here who do ... and I am not one of the highly-compensated professionals; I am a plebe. I find it amazing that people making several hundred thousand a year don't take advantage of that tax benefit.
I suppose you are right. For years my husband and I believed that we were behind everyone else because we made less than everyone we knew for most of our lives. Sometimes a lot less. Now that people know that we have enough to allow us to retire soon, people have started talking with me about their situations. I've been astonished at how many of them do not max out their 401Ks. Even more astonished at how many do not even put in money to the meager amount of the company match or who think that getting to the company match is "maxing out" their 401K.
Any idea why this is the case? Particularly for employees who are paid well? (It is pretty obvious why the poor do not max their 401Ks.)
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42, FIRED in 2014, never ever maxed out my 401k. I even knew I should but felt like I didn't want to lock away THAT much money.
I made the mistake of not maxing it out because of fears of my money being "locked away" and about the 10% early withdrawal penalty.
But, doing the math on it, even with only a few years of compounding the extra money you didn't pay in taxes for someone in a 25%+ tax bracket moving to a lower tax bracket in early retirement handily wins out even WITH taking the 10% penalty. You also aren't paying capital gains tax on the dividends while it grows in the account.
It's even better when you realize you can make this one of the last accounts you draw down, and for some they can just leave it alone until the 10% penalty goes away.
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I'm so glad to see this post! I'm 50 and just starting to save for retirement. My partner and I need to save $300,000 over the next twelve years, I think. We will both also get pensions. I could stop working sooner but still need to pay off student loans--lots of them. The thing that trips me up in planning is that our pensions will not be adjusted for inflation. Sometimes I wonder if people just keep working because figuring stuff like that out is just too difficult.
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45 here, so although born in the sixties I am officially too young to be a boomer.
Same here, proud to be part of the slacker generation! DH is 53 and we have only had 401ks for the last 6 years for him and 3 for me, but try to max them and every other savings vehicle we can. We spent several years working for ourselves in resort towns, but since we only worked six months out of the year we had lots of time to play. We contributed to IRAs most years, but we made much much less than we do now (except for one year that we hit a jackpot) so didn't save as much. We're playing catch up right now, but as soon as the kiddo's college is paid for, ~6 years, I'm done with full time work. We both like working though, our hope is contract work here and there. My calculations show we'll hit ~1.5M in six years so with working we'll have plenty of cushion.
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Boomer here, age 60.
Really, I didn't have an exact FIRE plan, both DH and I just saved a lot of money because I wanted to be able to bail on our jobs if they became too annoying.
Last year I started to hate my job, so I am out in just a few weeks. We will have plenty of money but I will continue to worry about that because it's ingrained in my psyche.
I very much like the challenges of living simply and having frugal fun. It takes more imagination than participating in consumerist frenzy.
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My parents lived modestly but perfectly well, probably a product of relatively modest upbringings (my mother having been one of many children, my father having lost his factory worker father at 13). Then they lived a hippie-ish lifestyle in the 60s/70s, with food cooperatives and unsuccessful attempts at gentrification (they were in a city that Reaganomics vacuumed money out of, rather than seeing money dumped in as on the coasts). I grew up in the 90s in a nice, simple house that they never upgraded, we only ate out on special occasions, and we mostly took road-trip vacations. The least 'Mustachian' thing they did was driving to work, but they did so in modest cars they they have kept 10+ years, and made sure we lived in a neighborhood that was pretty walkable otherwise.
Neither of them are fully retired but they both started working only a few days a week while I was in college and they were in their 50s. I think they both work mostly because they find it meaningful and satisfying at this point. When telling us of estate planning, they said they have accumulated a very substantial retirement fund that they expect my sister and I to donate to charity if they were to somehow pass early.
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When we graduated high school it was into recession with bank failures, the S&L crisis, and threats to end social security and recommended cuts to just about every social safety net. We very much felt that we could never get the same generous retirement funds previous generations got and that we were on our own. By contrast, my husband's mother graduated into a time of great prosperity.
My husband and I will not struggle with our retirement. We straightened ourselves out in the 90s, got rid of mountains of debt, and began saving with a plan to retire when my husband hit 55. We have enough now to retire, five years early. And it's not because of generous employers. It is because we got the big things right, by living for years in small apartments with no car while investing 20% to 50% of what we made.
There have been recessions before, but the last 15 years of hard times have been different from anything seen since the 30s:
(http://research.stlouisfed.org/fredgraph.png?hires=0&type=image/png&chart_type=line&recession_bars=on&log_scales=&bgcolor=%23e1e9f0&graph_bgcolor=%23ffffff&fo=verdana&ts=12&tts=12&txtcolor=%23444444&show_legend=yes&show_axis_titles=yes&drp=0&cosd=1984-01-01&coed=2013-01-01&width=670&height=445&stacking=&range=Custom&mode=fred&id=MEHOINUSA672N&transformation=lin&nd=&ost=-99999&oet=99999&scale=left&line_color=%234572a7&line_style=solid&lw=2&mark_type=none&mw=1&mma=0&fml=a&fgst=lin&fgsnd=2007-12-01&fq=Annual&fam=avg&vintage_date=&revision_date=)
Obviously the same ol' formula of spend much less than you earn works, and it's easier to invest and good advice is easier to find. It's also easier to save and live modestly in a climate of austertiy. I'm also fortunate enough to be in an industry that pretty much ignored the recession and rebounded with tremendous speed.
But I also suspect a lot of us young folks that are stashing are doing so because our prosperity feels like it might just be a bit more tenuous, and the bottom's further down. Bob Shiller (of the home-price index) wrote an excellent piece on that today:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/08/upshot/anxiety-and-interest-rates-how-uncertainty-is-weighing-on-us.html?smid=interbutt
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What a wonderful misleading graph!
The fact that it is missing 46 lines means that the variation between the top and the bottom is very little.
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What a wonderful misleading graph!
The fact that it is missing 46 lines means that the variation between the top and the bottom is very little.
Janet provides us with many different ways to display said graph:
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/MEHOINUSA672N
(http://research.stlouisfed.org/fredgraph.png?hires=0&type=image/png&chart_type=line&recession_bars=on&log_scales=&bgcolor=%23e1e9f0&graph_bgcolor=%23ffffff&fo=verdana&ts=12&tts=12&txtcolor=%23444444&show_legend=yes&show_axis_titles=yes&drp=0&cosd=1984-01-01&coed=2013-01-01&width=670&height=445&stacking=&range=&mode=fred&id=MEHOINUSA672N&transformation=cch&nd=&ost=-99999&oet=99999&scale=left&line_color=%234572a7&line_style=solid&lw=2&mark_type=none&mw=1&mma=0&fml=a&fgst=lin&fgsnd=2007-12-01&fq=Annual&fam=avg&vintage_date=&revision_date=)
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Great thread! Will be 52 in June. Thankfully I stumbled upon MMM 4 months ago when DW (54) kept asking when she could retire. Wish we had saved more and spent less in our 30's and 40's, we'd be FI if we had. We also got a late start on our family and have two busy teens to get through school. I suspect I'll be working for about 6 more years.
The stories on this site have inspired me to rethink our lifestyle -- better late than never. Making several changes to stop the bleeding: taking lunch to work rather than eating out, ditching cable, moved several investments to Vanguard, and looking to fire my investment manager soon. While I am convinced frugality is the right path, my family is a little slower to embrace the concept. DW thought I was a little crazy, but I rode my bike 9 miles from work the other day (yes we should move closer, but that isn't going to happen any time soon).
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That is an even more misleading graph! The first should look like the attached (hopefully people can see it now!), which shows there is little movement.
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There have been recessions before, but the last 15 years of hard times have been different from anything seen since the 30s:
(http://research.stlouisfed.org/fredgraph.png?hires=0&type=image/png&chart_type=line&recession_bars=on&log_scales=&bgcolor=%23e1e9f0&graph_bgcolor=%23ffffff&fo=verdana&ts=12&tts=12&txtcolor=%23444444&show_legend=yes&show_axis_titles=yes&drp=0&cosd=1984-01-01&coed=2013-01-01&width=670&height=445&stacking=&range=Custom&mode=fred&id=MEHOINUSA672N&transformation=lin&nd=&ost=-99999&oet=99999&scale=left&line_color=%234572a7&line_style=solid&lw=2&mark_type=none&mw=1&mma=0&fml=a&fgst=lin&fgsnd=2007-12-01&fq=Annual&fam=avg&vintage_date=&revision_date=)
Obviously the same ol' formula of spend much less than you earn works, and it's easier to invest and good advice is easier to find. It's also easier to save and live modestly in a climate of austertiy. I'm also fortunate enough to be in an industry that pretty much ignored the recession and rebounded with tremendous speed.
But I also suspect a lot of us young folks that are stashing are doing so because our prosperity feels like it might just be a bit more tenuous, and the bottom's further down. Bob Shiller (of the home-price index) wrote an excellent piece on that today:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/08/upshot/anxiety-and-interest-rates-how-uncertainty-is-weighing-on-us.html?smid=interbutt
I agree with both your points that there have been recessions before and that the 2008-2009 recession was particularly bad and that we are seeing anemic, recovery with the gains very much to the monied classes. I'm a little miffed that you chose to illustrate your point that the recession we graduated into wasn't all that much compared to present by using a chart that left out the recession I was talking about. Here's a graph that covers a wider time span. See that big dip around 1980 (when I graduated) through about 1983? That's us.
(http://www.decisionsonevidence.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Median-Real-Household-Income-Growth-Age-45-to-54.png)
So what does that mean? It means that we psychologically entered our adulthood seeing our financial fortunes limited and expected safety nets destroyed. We were not able to look into the future and say, "It's ok. This time is nowhere near as frightening as it will be in 2008."
In fact, the experience of having endured our own scary recession in 1980-1984, when we were of age to enter a shrinking workforce and seeing our parents losing their jobs at the same time, acted as a vaccination against the same type of despair when we hit the big recession in 2009. In addition we had worked our whole lives with the assumption that the good times would eventually end in devastating recession, so we prepared.
By contrast, my husband's mother and my parents came of age in a time of prosperity. The stagflation of the 70s and the recession of the 80s knocked them for a loop and they were not prepared. Well, I suppose my father was prepared. But he grew up during the Great Depression, an era so filled with economic hardship that subsequent generations cannot even imagine.
That's my point. Our experience is substantially different than those of older baby boomers. I seriously question the utility of generalizing about all of us in the same breath.
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@ coppertop:
I think when compared to the forum "lurkers" you're probably not that atypical. I think a lot of people read here but do not comment. I'm only 27, and I feel out of place here sometimes. I went to grad school, didn't get married till 27, and we're not waiting till our 30's to have kids.I feel like my serious earning years just started. When I compare us to other people that post that they retired BEFORE they had kids I feel very, very behind. It's discouraging sometimes, but I think recognizing that you've adjusted onto the right course is what is important.
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Not everybody "gets it" at the same point in their lives. Maybe the important thing is the amount of time after getting it and being able to FIRE.
Plus, with the advent of the internet and much greater information sharing, the young-uns these days can create blogs like this and share information and get a head start before many of us did.
I am in my mid-40s and will probably FIRE soon, this year or next. I had a mini-FIRE at the age of 42 after a layoff. It lasted about 5 months until an old employer called me back. I wasn't actively looking for work, so I'm not sure what would have happened if they hadn't called me.
In all honesty, I had a good stash then, but my costs were too high. I had calculations and spreadsheets going and had read some ER stuff, but hadn't learned about the 4% SWR or the Roth conversion pipeline. I was mostly invested in international funds after the 2008 scare, which did well for a few years but has been stagnant for the past two.
I think it would have been a disaster if I would have stayed FIRE then. Now I am armed with much better information so my next attempt should last quite a bit longer. ;-)
Now three years have passed since I returned to work and I am itching to get out soon. I have much lower costs and a more diversified investment portfolio. I have no pension so I've got to self-fund.
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Old guy here. Shit, never thought I'd say that. Doesn't seem that long ago I was getting carded to get into a club.
I'm proud that so many young people are getting the message via MMM. They're more responsible, intelligent, and have more integrity than their peers. More here are vegan than the general pop.
Years ago I let my Sears credit card max out at $300 and did not pay them back for a few years. Because of that, I could not get credit. That was one of the best things that ever happened. Frugality had to be nurtured or I did not eat.
I've always had a good life, but if I knew about MMM, I could have retired long ago. In America I think it's almost too easy. MMM shows the way and with the discipline most can do it.
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I believe that these highly-paid professionals feel as if they 'deserve' a certain lifestyle because they went and got the advanced degree and their profession was once known as one that would lead to wealth. Sadly for them, this is true no more. A few years back, I went to a seminar with my boss that was held in the office of a financial management company. One of the things I came away with is that doctors, in particular, appear to have a huge income, but they spend it all and then some ... student loans, expensive cars and houses, private school for the kids, European vacations. They, and their spouses, seem to feel as if a certain lifestyle is automatically part of being a doctor. I don't work for doctors, but the attitude is the same. The old guys in my office pretty much do fine ... it's the younger ones, in their 50s and younger, who don't put much of anything into their retirement accounts and who are always complaining they don't make enough money. You should have heard the weeping and gnashing of teeth when I handed around the W-2's this year.
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Are the Baby Boomers either so rich or so clueless that they don't need to learn and practice these principles too?
I don't think it's the "rich" bit--I think the majority are in denial, walking around with blinders as big as cars. We'll hear some proper screaming in the next few years when they realize they can no longer work due to health and have no savings. Somehow, it'll be the government's fault. Be prepared for taxes to go through the roof as politicians pander handouts to the glut.
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This is my generation, and I see the mistakes so many of them are making. One friend drove me so batty that I no longer see her ... she'd be complaining that she'd never be able to retire one minute, and the next telling me about the new Frye boots she just bought. There's definitely a disconnect for many between things they just have to have and the fact that they will be wage slaves until they drop dead at work.
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Not everybody "gets it" at the same point in their lives. Maybe the important thing is the amount of time after getting it and being able to FIRE.
Plus, with the advent of the internet and much greater information sharing, the young-uns these days can create blogs like this and share information and get a head start before many of us did.
I wish I'd known about FIRE earlier too and I'm excitedly envious for everyone on this forum who have figured it out, especially those younger than me, or further ahead than me. It's inspiring envy, not negative envy!
I realized recently that even though FIRE wasn't on my radar until a few months ago I still made a lot of good choices in my past that have my "amount of time after getting it and being able to FIRE" much closer than it could be.
-Paid off my student loans ASAP (I know now that this wasn't the ideal option, but it was better than paying the minimum and spending the rest on crap)
-Bought two properties in 2008 and 2009 which have both appreciated and have been largely paid for by rental income.
-Got a job with a pension. Forced savings which I had no idea of the actual value until last night. Happily added 75k more than my estimated value to my net worth in one evening.
-Naturally frugal, never had car loan, not very spendypants.
I am thankful for these gifts I gave myself without even knowing why at the time. How that I'm focused and have an FI goal, I hope I can get there within the next 5 years.
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55 here
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You may not realize that it used to be a lot more expensive to invest. Most people couldn't get 401K plans from employers. Getting information on mutual funds and putting enough of a stake together to get invested in one was hard, especially for those of us with low incomes. Investing in individual stocks was also expensive and difficult. All that has changed. You have a lot more going for you than we had when we started investing.
There has always been a movement toward simple living and frugality in the United States. It is part of the dialectic of our nation. Today there is MMM and ERE. When I poked my head out and looked around in the early 80s it was Voluntary Simplicity; in the 90s: Your Money or Your Life, and How to Survive Without a Salary (not to mention the Tightwad Gazette). In the 60s there was a massive DIY and simple living mass movement. We are all inheritors of the ideas from Walden Pond. The medium changes, but the message continues on. :)
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Well said. We also were part of a generation where you got out of the house and got a job. It was not that normal to go to college so our climb in the workforce was harder and longer.
I used to call my broker (Fidelity) on a public pay phone to make trades. I didn't have a home phone as it cost a fortune to call anyone I knew. And I'm only 52. A lot has changed in 35 years.
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I'm closing in on 62 and DH is almost 64. I no longer work, and he plans to quit soon. We decided to have a fun urban experience so he took a job in Seattle with a small startup after years at a megacorp. We save 40% of our income and could probably save more if we wanted to. We're planning on moving back to where we used to live, moving into one of our rental homes. With the job DH got a bunch of stock options that we hope will turn into something nice once the company goes public, but it would just be extra and not something we're counting on at all.
We got rid of our Verizon cell phone plan after reading the posts on cell phones. We've been a one-car family for the majority of our almost 34 years together. We've always lived within biking/walking distance of our workplaces. That served us well until my DH crashed and broke his hip. He has free bus pass now.
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Another boomer here, age 55. I found MMM a year ago and have transformed our lives. Was sure that I could not retire before 60...now I know that 58 is the max I'll have to go and based on what I'm learning I hope to be FI before then. Age has nothing to do with it. I do wish there was something like MMM when I was in my 20's since I would not be working today if I had figured it out earlier. I am currently loving my low information diet, bicycling, eating at home wonderful life. Hope to lose the soul sucking corporate job soon.
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In reading through and seeing that most people who post here are maxing their 401(k)'s at $18,000, I realize to my chagrin that I am an "old person" here (at age 59). Are there no 'oldster' mustachians? Are the Baby Boomers either so rich or so clueless that they don't need to learn and practice these principles too? I look around at work and realize that we have people who have been slaving here for 40 years or more who are beyond full retirement age and still have to work to survive. It's depressing. I, myself, am hoping to be out of here by age 62 at the very latest. I will do it sooner if I can.
Sorry if this is obvious to everyone else, but what is the point you are making about maxing out 401Ks and age? Do "old people" not max out their 401Ks?
Once you hit 50, then the 401k max is $24,000. I took his comment to say that by people saying they max their 401k at $18,000 it is indicative that they are under 50. He was feeling like he was a minority by being over 50. Maybe I misread his comment.
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My name says it all - and I've been retired for 1.5 years. Bliss.
I like the MMM blog and forum because people tend to be more generalist in their outlooks - lots of discussion on other topics as well as money.
I could have retired at 60, but instead made a job move into a 3 year contract that was an amazing 3 years. Not at all sorry I postponed retirement by those 3 years. I also could have retired even earlier if I hadn't had a very non-mustachian spouse (now ex-). Many of the discussions about spouses with very different financial outlooks have resonated - and spenders can be very good at spending even when they have agreed to financial goals. They live the phrase "It was too good a deal to pass up."
I can't speak for all early boomers, but having parents who lived through the Depression (born in 1915 and 1917) meant that in my family money was always treated carefully. In my circle of friends, those whose parents were younger (i.e. no real memories of the Depression) seem to be bigger spenders, on average.
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I'm 55 and not mustacian particularly but have always been frugal. I still have 2 kids to put through college and should retire around 62. I don't intend to have a fancy pants retirement but have concerns about old age, the cost of medical care, etc. So I've never aspired to ER particularly but like the idea of FI.
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Thank you for starting this thread!
I also found MMM & ERE late. Wish I'd started sooner, but am enjoying learning & implementing all I can at my ripe-old 50-ish age!
I've always been frugal & enjoy simple living just by my nature. Unfortunately, I married a Spendy Pants! But it's been 24 great years together & he has other sterling qualities, so I'll keep him! ;-)
Been working the math, spread sheets & calculators since jumping on board & I'll be fully FI in 5 years. I never understood this before & just assumed I'd be working full-time till 67 because that's what all my coworkers talk about. Now I plan to continue working just enough to add more cushion to our savings for international travel.
At 55, when fully FI, I plan to down-shift to per diem work & only pick up 2-3 shifts each week. (I love my job as a surgical nurse.) I'm also considering taking travel assignments to places in the US we'd like to check out/ visit. So I could work 3 months, then take next 3 months off. Rinse, repeat as I choose.
Finding MMM, ER & ERE has opened my eyes to so many new possibilities, that even though I joined the party late, I'm excited about my future!
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I retired at 63 and my wife retired ten years earlier when she was 52 so I gained the benefits of her earlier retirement while I was still working. I loved my job and it had frequent breaks, so it was not a struggle. We have decent savings and some pensions and we were clever enough to pay off our house before my wife retired. I like the MMM forum for its liveliness, but not it's occasional vitriol and moralizing, but reading about MMM was an eye opening experience for our household. We probably would have retired much earlier if we knew what we know now. We have optimized our budget more since MMM. I have been on ER, but will have to check it out more.