Author Topic: Your thoughts on the we are the 99% blog?  (Read 575701 times)

Jamesqf

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Re: Your thoughts on the we are the 99% blog?
« Reply #150 on: December 01, 2012, 08:46:25 PM »
I agree, it isn't.  Just saying, our own reserves does much to keep our prices low, which (indirectly) means more wealth for us too.

Not really.  You need to look at the market price of oil (and thus downstream products) as distinct from the price of gasoline at the pump.  The difference in gas prices between the US and Europe isn't the cost of the oil->gasoline (which is essentially the same), it's the amount of tax added.  US oilprices aren't low (for the most part), they are the same as oil prices everywhere else in the world market.  Indeed, the only reason the US currently have meaningful oil reserves at all is because oil prices are high: there's a bunch of hard-to-get oil that will stay in the ground until prices allow it to be pumped out profitably.  That is, if it costs $80 to pump a barrel (IIRC about the current cost of Bakken Formation oil), that oil is going to stay in the ground unless the price is more than $80/bbl.

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How is the average Norwegian or Saudi enjoying the benefits of this unearned wealth fundamentally different from the average American?

Because the average American doesn't get much of anything from domestic oil production.  (Unless you're an Alaskan, and get benefits from the Permanent Fund.) The government gets a bit of revenue from taxes and drilling leases on public lands, but it's a miniscule fraction of the budget.  The Saudis (and the Norwegians) get a much larger amount of revenue from oil exports, and distribute much of it to a much smaller population.  For the Norwegians, this excess funds their social systems, while for the Saudis it essentially is their entire economy.

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population density/open space, personal freedom/privacy, climate
Granted, but those are independent of economic system, which is what this thread has been about.[/quote]

Just as those other measures are independent of economic system, and so not relevant.

tooqk4u22

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Re: Your thoughts on the we are the 99% blog?
« Reply #151 on: December 03, 2012, 07:35:01 AM »
I'm not saying its "bad" for someone to try to help out their kids.  Just like it isn't bad for a fisherman to fish on a communal lake.  The problem is that when everyone does it, at some point the lake runs out of fish, and everyone suffers. 

Sure if everyone did it you would have no fish, but not everybody can do it because not everybody has the skills and knowldedge or the resources to buy the equipment.  Also note everybody is entitled to eat fish.  So somebody with the skill saves or borrows to buy the gear from someone who has the skills to make fishing poles or nets or boats or employees people to  do other things and so on....but at the end of the day those with the least skills generally don't eat fish - I don't see the problem. 

Although I guess you are saying it is ok for some people to have more fish but not too many fish, but what also I think you are saying is that every one is entitled to have some fish regardless of skill or resources.  Although I would argue, as I already have, that anybody can fish - a string and a hook is easily attainable.

But those problems wouldn't have happened in the first place if the regulations put in place after the Great Depression hadn't been rescinded in the first place.  The big banks could have never become so big in under pre-Regan/Clinton laws.

I agree - repealling Glass Steagal, which happened under a dearly loved democrat who helped sway the current election, was a big mistake.

Politicians have no clue - they are either career politicians and never really worked or they are ridiculously wealthy people (by earning it, marrying into it, or inheriting it) - they can't solve anything.
What do you propose in its place?  Anarchy?  A benevolent dictator?  Direct democracy?
[/quote]

Definitely not those things...but I don't have an answer.  Although I posted elsewhere that changing term limits to be more inline with economic cycles and reduce the perpetual campaigning......presidency should be a single 6-year term (enough to implement its platform and see it through but not so long that that we have to live with it).  Change the house from 2 year terms to a single six year term.  Senate already does six year terms but they can be reelected forever so it should be capped at two 6-year terms.  I think this would allow enough turnover so money and buying votes is less rewarded but still allows for some seniority and wisdom along the way. 

Yes, and many of the countries have market economies, similar to our own.  Their decision to try to make trade even freer between them all by adopting a common currency meant that the downfall of any one affected the others more.  The whole global downturn was led by the US is 2008.

The common currency made it easier to trade and harder to deal with issues...but it is not the heart of the issues.  The issues are due to constantly expanding entitlements and social programs and funding them with ever increasing amounts of debt (sounds familiar)...Germany has faired well due to its fiscal discipline and if it wasn't as strong as it is the whole Eurozone would have collapsed already.  The difference between the Eurozone and the US is we still have time to address it and we have a more flexible and dynamic economy that can bounce back if the politicians ever get out of the way (not because of ideology but because of constant uncertainty).  Even if we go off the fiscal cliff it may cause some pain and a recession but if that stands as the new way we will all adjust and figure it out. Problem is that politicians like band aids and not cures (whether that be medicine or amputation).

Exactly!!  This is why I used it as an example.  You've always implied (or stated outright) that conditions like that would stifle innovation, investment, and production, which would retard the growth of wealth and the end result would be everyone, both the rich and the middle class, would suffer.  And yet, here this place is, not just hypothetical but actually existing, and it has exactly the sort of system you think would be terrible, yet it has consistently had a higher standard of living for its middle class the the US for at least as long as comparisons have existed.
And like I mentioned to Jamesqf, the US has higher oil production than they do, so, if their economic sucess doesn't count for that reason, neither does ours.

Yes condtions like that would stifle our economy - Norway is not a comparable example.  They don't produce or create anything...they harvest natural resources.  Yes the US is the 3rd largest oil producer but oil production in the US per capita is about 30 barrels/1000 whereas in Norway it is over 550 barrels/1000 so quite a difference and that extends to other natural resources as well.   

Norway is more akin to Alaska, if it were an individual country.


Bakari

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Re: Your thoughts on the we are the 99% blog?
« Reply #152 on: February 10, 2013, 06:44:20 PM »
  Hopefully that is one thing we can agree on - LETS TAKE THE MONEY OUT OF POLITICS.

First Constitutional Amendment to be Introduced in Congress Stating Corporations Are Not People & Money Is Not Speech
...
On Monday, February 11, Move to Amend will join members of Congress as they introduce Move to Amend’s “We the People Amendment” an amendment that clearly and unequivocally states that:
1) Rights recognized under the Constitution belong to human beings only, and not to government-created artificial legal entities such as corporations and limited liability companies;
and
2) Political campaign spending is not a form of speech protected under the First Amendment.

https://movetoamend.org/wethepeopleamendment

Jamesqf

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Re: Your thoughts on the we are the 99% blog?
« Reply #153 on: February 10, 2013, 07:20:57 PM »
So corporations are not made up of human beings?  Or is it that it's somehow wrong for groups of people to get together for common purposes, such as e.g. "to petition the Government for a redress of grievances"?

And will the same restrictions apply to e.g. labor unions?

Bakari

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Re: Your thoughts on the we are the 99% blog?
« Reply #154 on: February 10, 2013, 09:51:11 PM »
So corporations are not made up of human beings? 
Yes, "made up of".  Not "are".  Just like clubs and cities and parades and sports teams and the mafia, but that doesn't mean the entity of the group itself gets its own set of rights independently of the individuals that make it up.
With corporations in particular, since no one person takes on the liability of the whole, no one person can claim to represent it, nor it them.  It is unreasonable to expect to have the protection of limited liability, and yet expect unlimited rights and protection.
Perhaps most relevant of all, unless a publicly held corporation puts a vote out to every single one of its share holders, it can not claim to be representing them as individuals in any decision it makes.

An LLC exists only with by the government action of legitimizing its charter.  Being owned by people in not the same thing as being a person.

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Or is it that it's somehow wrong for groups of people to get together for common purposes
No one said anything about it being wrong.  This is not about eliminating all business partnerships.  You do not have to have an LLC to get together for common business purposes.  But, this is not making any suggestion what-so-ever of eliminating corporations anyway.   All it is saying is that the legal entity of the corporation itself does not get the protection of the bill of rights.

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, such as e.g. "to petition the Government for a redress of grievances"?

And will the same restrictions apply to e.g. labor unions?
yes.  This might be played up more if unions had anywhere remotely near the money or political influence that corporations currently do, but the Citzens United vs FEC case (which led to the creation of SuperPACs and in turn, this attempt to reverse it) explicitly applied to both corporations and unions.
[/quote]

Jamesqf

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Re: Your thoughts on the we are the 99% blog?
« Reply #155 on: February 11, 2013, 11:19:26 AM »
This might be played up more if unions had anywhere remotely near the money or political influence that corporations currently do...

Oh, get real.  Unions have a lot more influence than corporations.

chatsc

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Re: Your thoughts on the we are the 99% blog?
« Reply #156 on: February 11, 2013, 12:05:56 PM »
that blog is one of the most depressing things i have read in my life.  i am grateful for everything i have (financial good sense, a good family, good health, a job, a happy life, a wonderful future).

unitsinc

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Re: Your thoughts on the we are the 99% blog?
« Reply #157 on: February 11, 2013, 01:13:39 PM »
This might be played up more if unions had anywhere remotely near the money or political influence that corporations currently do...

Oh, get real.  Unions have a lot more influence than corporations.

While I can't prove it either way, I can easily say money definitely buys power, and I know that corporations have vastly more wealth than unions, I would wager they have much more power.

Jamesqf

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Re: Your thoughts on the we are the 99% blog?
« Reply #158 on: February 11, 2013, 02:47:56 PM »
This might be played up more if unions had anywhere remotely near the money or political influence that corporations currently do...

Then why do unions, and particularly public employee unions, get contracts larded with pork, while corporations get hit with taxes, liability suits, etc?

Oh, get real.  Unions have a lot more influence than corporations.

While I can't prove it either way, I can easily say money definitely buys power, and I know that corporations have vastly more wealth than unions, I would wager they have much more power.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!