I'm a normal guy, living a normal life. Help me blow it up.

[medinaj2160]

I live this idea a lot!

OP. I'm happy you found this site because at the rate you are/were going, you're close to the cusp of complete financial ruin along with everything that goes with it.   Either that or you'd be working till you're dead.   

I think the next step would be to rid yourself of the cars.   Get a 6 year old civic with under 100k miles for around $7000

The cusp of complete financial ruin is a bit of a stretch?  As for the cars, I really like them.  A lot.  I am capable of performing a lot of very advanced repairs / troubleshooting and I enjoy doing it.  I'd rather not get to personal, but there are a lot of deep rooted emotional / psychological issues around my choices in transportation.  For now, what works for me is to drive my car, pay it off, and then continue to baby and maintain it.  Perhaps when the time comes that I have to replace it, I'll have grown enough to do something like you suggest.

I am in South Carolina as well, Greenville area. I think we are in very similar situations. My wife and I make 122K have 180K home but the only debt we have is 20k on the mortgage. We are living spending around 30-35k and we still get to go on vacations (Mexico "Akumal" and Myrtle beach) with that money. The rest of money goes to 401Ks, IRA and the mortgage for now.

I love cars as well and recently sold my 700hp baby. I used the money that I got from selling my car to help pay off the house faster. I will be getting a fun car soon because I really miss it and it actually makes me happier if that makes. It was my only hobby and it kept me occupied; it was great to drive the car after a bad day at work, it really improved my mood. I know it will be an untimustachian purchase but it makes me happy...

Finding this site help me and hurt me. It helped me because I know I am more conscious about my spending. It helped me see that I don't have to work for the rest of my life for a job that sometimes I hate. I learned that I can retire way earlier than I though. I learn to used cash back and miles credit cards to fund my vacations.

This site hurt me in the sense that sometimes I think too much about money. Sometimes I get really impatient and want to be FIRE right away specially when I have a bad day at work. I also sometimes I feel bad about buying stuff that I can easily afford.

Anyway if I were you I would find a way of cutting down your expenses, max out your 401K and payoff your credit card debt.  Is all about finding a balance. Like other members said you are in a good place right now take advantage of you position.

[brizna]

Hmmm....actually no... you're living paycheck to paycheck at this moment based on what numbers you have listed and your $100K of negative net worth

?

175
-157
120
10
-34
-36
___
78

[Cheddar Stacker]

I believe what surfhb is trying to say is we have high standards around here. Its all about perspective though. I look at your numbers and see opportunity.

[averageJoe]

Thank you very much to all for the great replies.  You have given me much to think about and consider.  I appreciate the encouraging words, the reality check, and the great suggestions.  Thanks again for taking the time to reply!

[brizna]

Thank you, this makes sense.  I use Mint as well.  It's nice to have everything on a single pane of glass.  I am currently addressing the credit card issue.   Things will start to snowball soon.  There are several obligations that will be gone in 12 months.  That should free up a substantial amount to continue the repayment process.  I have always loved cars.  One them is almost paid off, the other not so much.  I guess the thing is that the car isn't hurting me.  Is there a smarter use of the money?  Sure.  But it isn't hurting me, I'm not upside down on it, and I like it.  I *almost* bought a Honda Fit like MMM said but just couldn't bring myself to do it. 

I think the thing is that when you read this blog, MMM is advocating an extreme (I use the word in a non-confrontational manner) lifestyle.  The emphasis seems to be on making a huge change and dare I say a political statement with your lifestyle.  It sounds like the 60s but with money.  I am just not sure how to apply this to me.  Life is good.  I've got no worries.  Why would I want to flip everything upside down just because I am bored?  This world is full of people who are hurting, sick, living in poverty etc.  I've got it great.  I dunno what my point is, exactly.  Just looking for other peoples' experiences.

So if you're happy and content, it seems like you shouldn't change. Definitely pay down the debt since you're just losing money needlessly, and consider building a bigger nest egg to smooth out rough patches. But other than that, onward!

Here's the deal. Relative to the rest of western society, we *are* extreme. However, I don't think the right word is political, but rather "philosophical." What you're looking for doesn't appear to be advice on how to achieve financial independence, but why.

The why is different from person to person. For me, it stems from a tremendous dissatisfaction with our society and our society's structure in general. I can't stand putting so much time and effort into something that brings me no satisfaction. I despise hierarchical structures (i.e. corporations) and being told what to do. I hate "stuff" and feel that all the shit I've accumulated is ultimately hollow and unfulfilling (this would include a car if I owned one).

I love learning. I love my family. And I love building. This is what I want and this is why I'm so focused on checking out early.

However, if you're generally satisfied, you're generally satisfied. If not, maybe just small changes are in order. However, unless you're fully behind it, FI is going to be a tough sell to yourself and a tough sell to your wife since it requires a pretty big change in mindset to make work.

It is kind of like the 60s now that you mention it. In fact, the 2 times I've tried LSD really cemented the mindset for myself. I highly recommend it :)

[Sarita]

As an HR person who has worked for a number of companies, including "wealthy ones" with the illusion of safety and upward advancement, I would say that "illusion" is the key word here.  I have had the unfortunate duty to lay off hundreds of staff members- probably a thousand by now-- and I can say that most of them thought they were safe and were shocked when their job was eliminated.  Many of them have a hard time finding employment after 50.

I agree with others that you have a golden opportunity.   You are in a great position to establish a serious foundation of security for your family.

I think it's normal to not really know what one wants.  One of the beautiful things about having a 'stash is having options.  If you wait until you know what you want, it might be too late.

[Random]

You are to be congratulated for the changes you have made and your willingness to continue to evaluate lifestyle, etc.  It is a journey.

You are bored with work, wondering if this is it.  It is kind of a cosmic joke, right?

You are in a great position with strong income and potential for low cost of living to set yourself up to really make changes, if you really want to make them.  To make any significant change, you should (as many have noted) get rid of the debt and then build enough of a stash to give you options.  Often called FU money, it doesn't have to be used to blow up your job.  It could be used to shift to working for a non-profit in an area that you have a lot of passion for.  It could be used to bootstrap a business around an area that excites you.  You clearly have some great hobbies and passions (cars, photography?).  Not that a hobby should become a business, but they could and that may provide more juice in your li than current job.

Any of this is made much, much easier if you don't have debt and have a sufficient stash to give you some financial flexibility.

Good luck and enjoy the journey.

[odput]

It is a journey.

Throughout all the changes you make/consider, don't forget this.  I know I'm guilty of it a lot...FIRE isn't a destination, so enjoy the journey to it as much as after it.

Re: the fun car...you mentioned upthread considering a motorcycle - any more thought on this?  SC is certainly a place you can ride year-round and can pretty adequately replace all the fun of driving a fancypants car.  As long as you don't ride like an idiot, you can probably drop the cop-magnet bit too.

[pom]

Lots has been said already but I wanted to say congrats for what you have done so far. Make sure your wife is on board and enjoy the challenge.

[apfroggy0408]

MMM is not as extreme as you think, he had a ridiculously expensive house for a long time. We all have our vices, do what you can to make your life better not worse.

[TheSimpleLife]

My story isn't unique or special so I'll spare you the long and wordy post.

- 35 y/o man.  Married 10 years.  One child, six y/o son.  No other children planned.
- $158k a year gross household income.  This hasn't always been the case.  When we got married, our gross was $56k a year.  It has gone up substantially in the past 4 years.  We got married with no money to our name.
- We both work 40 hours a week with excellent benefits.  We both work for a wealthy, established companies that offer the comfortable illusion of job security and upward mobility.
- We live in Lexington, SC.  Cost of living is extremely low.  My mortgage on a 2200sq ft. house in a nice neighborhood (HOA, pool, etc) with great schools is $1k a month.  House was $175k, 30 year fixed, 4.x% interest rate.  No HELOCs etc.  Owe $157k.
- $120k saved between 401k, 529, investments, and cash.  $10kish in assets that I could easily dispose of for cash.  Professional grade DSLR equipment, firearms, automotive tools, aquarium setups, etc etc.
- $34k in credit card debt
- $36k owned on two vehicles.
- 735 credit score. 
- Our family is in good physical condition and health.

Life is easy.  We bring home ~$8300 a month, pay all of our bills on time, don't care when gas prices go up, go on vacation and mini trips several times a year, etc. 

I'm also bored.  Is this it?  We service our debt, send our son to college, retire in our 60s, and then watch our bodies age and our time on earth dwindle. 

I am not convinced that the answer to my boredom is to sell our cars, ride a bicycle, and save every dime I can.  But, on the other hand, why the hell not?

Now that I have typed more than I meant to, has anyone else been in a similar situation?  What was the tipping point for making a change?  Do you ever regret it?  How has your life improved since?

Welcome to the forums, Average Joe!

I think you are in a great position to transform your financial life into whatever you desire for it to be!  Yes, $34K of CC debt and a clown car habit are nothing to sneeze at, but with a few minor tweaks you will solve those problems in no time (if you want to).

A few questions to consider about quality of life:

1.  Do you or your wife have any passions/desires outside of work that you really enjoy?

2.  Are you guys the type that might "need" work for the structure, social life, etc?

3.  Are you able to spend ample time with your son or would you both want more of that?

4.  What do you mean by "bored?"  What would make you "not bored?"  I've worked enough jobs before I came into my current profession to understand that work is just work sometimes.  Most people in this world WILL NEVER BE PASSIONATE about their work, and there is nothing at all wrong with that.  In my social circle, maybe 5% of the people are "passionate" about their work.  YMMV, but my point is that it is fine to not love your job.  Join the crowd...

5.  If you have many personal hobbies and interests and work is a slow, boring grind, I think that is the biggest motivation for FIRE.  Or at least have enough FU money that you don't have to take anyone's crap if you don't want to.  My job has improved greatly simply from knowing that I can lose my job and not really have to worry too much about the financial outcomes.

6.  "Is this it?"  Yes, your life is far from average, but most everyone in the world goes to work, spends time with their family, does chores, spends time in the community, etc.  The only difference is everyone in the west has it better than 99% of the rest of the world.  And for your area, you're probably in the 90th percentile for income, etc.  Your on top of the fuckin' world, but you just can't see it.  The advertisers have done a masterful job of creating that exact mindset in this country:  "Is this it?"  Yes, this is it, and it is a beautiful life.  You have health, a family, great jobs, a healthy son, etc. 

Don't get me wrong, I struggle with "enough" and contentment just like you do.  But when I go home at night and my 2 year old son tells me how much fun he had with my wife cooking dinner and swimming in a friend's pool, I realize that my life is bad ass even when it doesn't feel that way.

Suggestions for your financial affairs:

1.  How long til the CC debt is gone?  What is the interest rate like?  If a long time and the interest rates suck, consider a HELOC if you have enough equity.  If you go this route, make sure you are determined to pay this off just like you seem to be with the CCs.

2.  Assuming you guys are maxing 401(k), but if not, $35,000 should go to both of those each year.

3.  Sell your clown car.  After you've reached FI, buy whatever clown car you want.  Take money and pay off CC debt.  Could you survive on one car until CCs are gone?

There are a million other ways you can optimize, but the happiest people I know spend money on things they cherish and enjoy.  Sounds like you need to think about and act on your "why" and most everything else will fall into place!

Best of luck!

[mak1277]

Lots of good stuff in the replies here that I won't repeat.  I think my biggest suggestion is that you need to figure out what direction you want to take in your life...then decide how to best make that happen.  You absolutely seem unfulfilled, but until you can articulate what would make you happier/more fulfilled, you can't really plan the trip with any accuracy.

There's nothing inherently wrong with living "a normal life".  I don't subscribe to the view that an ordinary US citizen "consumer" is by rule a bad person, or somehow misguided.  They are just choosing a different path.  The problem comes when people take this path mindlessly, without making a distinct choice to do so.  If you evaluate your life and seriously consider the options, and still determine that you want a big house, sportscar and all those other things...then go forth and enjoy that.  But if you decide you want to simplify, save and do things differently, you have that option.  But you have to know why...and you have to want it for your happiness, not just because strangers on the internet say do this or don't do this.

[fallstoclimb]

Not to quibble, but you are couching it in negatives (my edit above). You're undeniably better off than before, so yes, see where else you can optimize and see what it brings. Make a game out of burying that debt. Get a small decorative glass and fill it with 34 pretty glass beads. To anyone else that looks like some sort of decoration. To you it's 34K of consumer debt in 1K increments. Every time you pay off another 1K, out goes a bead. We do this once a month with paying off our rental and home mortgages and I love seeing the progress over time, and the missus digs it too. When you empty the glass, come up with some cool way to celebrate your achievement.

Oh man I wish I'd thought to do that when I first took out my student loans!  What a great idea. 

[dude]

I live this idea a lot!

OP. I'm happy you found this site because at the rate you are/were going, you're close to the cusp of complete financial ruin along with everything that goes with it.   Either that or you'd be working till you're dead.   

I think the next step would be to rid yourself of the cars.   Get a 6 year old civic with under 100k miles for around $7000

The cusp of complete financial ruin is a bit of a stretch?  As for the cars, I really like them.  A lot.  I am capable of performing a lot of very advanced repairs / troubleshooting and I enjoy doing it.  I'd rather not get to personal, but there are a lot of deep rooted emotional / psychological issues around my choices in transportation.  For now, what works for me is to drive my car, pay it off, and then continue to baby and maintain it.  Perhaps when the time comes that I have to replace it, I'll have grown enough to do something like you suggest.

Not sure what you do for a living, or who you work for, but with the debt you have, it seems that one misfortune (bad health situation, layoff, sick kid) could in fact put you at or close to financial ruin.  It's really not a stretch.

You have the odds stacked way in your favor in your current situation -- high income, low COL area, some liabilities you can dump, etc.  I all comes down to what you're after -- as the Joe Jackson song goes, "I'll tell you one thing, you can't get what you want . . . 'til you know what you want."  With your current expenses, you would need a TON of money throwing off passive income to sustain yourself. And you simply aren't on that trajectory at your current age.  But you have to tools to change that and drastically alter your life's outcome 20 years from now.  Obviously, you've done some of the little things, so now it's time to think about the big things.  Best of luck! 

[dude]

Hmmm....actually no... you're living paycheck to paycheck at this moment based on what numbers you have listed and your $100K of negative net worth

?

175
-157
120
10
-34
-36
___
78

Right, this was what I came up with as well.  But for a $158K household at 35 years old, this isn't very good.  OP didn't say how much he's putting into his 401k & 529, but I'm guessing it's not close to the max.  His current liquid savings isn't enough to sustain his family's standard of living for one year. So while surfhb had the number wrong, I think his point is valid -- OP is living paycheck to paycheck and is in fact one bad break from being in the poor house.  personally, I wouldn't want to live in that realm, and with a $158k income, there's absolutely no good reason he should be. 

And while I don't agree with some early harshness in this thread, to anyone on this site who professes to be an acolyte of MMM and his philosophy, this guy has hair-on-fire debt emergencies.  It's been a while since MMM himself did a case study, but I am reasonably confident he would be throwing 1-2 facepunch combos and probably a few leg kicks as well at this guy.

[golden1]

Hi averagejoe,

Don't let the other posters get you down.  Here is what I can see from your post.

1) You have lost a significant amount of weight, which means you have already proven that you have the ability to make big changes in your life.  This is awesome!  Hopefully you can use that same attitude to conquer your debt if you so choose.  You also make a great income and have really low housing expenses - I am very jealous because I live in MA where a nice house like you describe would probably cost me $3000-4000/mo.

2) You have a lot of credit card debt, but do not seem very concerned about it-  perhaps because you have a plan.   Around these parts we call CC debt a hair on fire emergency as in - no eating out, sell your car, live on rice and beans etc..etc.. and throw every last remaining cent at your debt.  However,  you may be more of a Dave Ramsey type and want to pay it off more gradually and that's okay, but don't be surprised if you see a lot of push back about it on this forum. 

3) There is an ideal out there that people on this forum seem to aspire to, but since everyone is different, no one will ever meet that ideal and shouldn't even try.  MMM drinks alcohol, and I don't.  To me, it is a ridiculous waste of money.  I don't want to live MMMs life.  That isn't the point.  I want to live my life and that means prioritizing different things than he does.    My goal is to go part time by age 50 then retire by 55 to be free to be a grandma or whatever life throws my way. 

4) What I get out of this blog more than anything else is that frugality doesn't have to be about deprivation.  It is a mindset of mindfulness and simple gratitude in everyday things that can't be bought or acquired.   Spending less flows from that naturally.  It is about improving your life from the inside out, not the outside in. 

[averageJoe]

Hi averagejoe,

Don't let the other posters get you down.  Here is what I can see from your post.

1) You have lost a significant amount of weight, which means you have already proven that you have the ability to make big changes in your life.  This is awesome!  Hopefully you can use that same attitude to conquer your debt if you so choose.  You also make a great income and have really low housing expenses - I am very jealous because I live in MA where a nice house like you describe would probably cost me $3000-4000/mo.

2) You have a lot of credit card debt, but do not seem very concerned about it-  perhaps because you have a plan.   Around these parts we call CC debt a hair on fire emergency as in - no eating out, sell your car, live on rice and beans etc..etc.. and throw every last remaining cent at your debt.  However,  you may be more of a Dave Ramsey type and want to pay it off more gradually and that's okay, but don't be surprised if you see a lot of push back about it on this forum. 

3) There is an ideal out there that people on this forum seem to aspire to, but since everyone is different, no one will ever meet that ideal and shouldn't even try.  MMM drinks alcohol, and I don't.  To me, it is a ridiculous waste of money.  I don't want to live MMMs life.  That isn't the point.  I want to live my life and that means prioritizing different things than he does.    My goal is to go part time by age 50 then retire by 55 to be free to be a grandma or whatever life throws my way. 

4) What I get out of this blog more than anything else is that frugality doesn't have to be about deprivation.  It is a mindset of mindfulness and simple gratitude in everyday things that can't be bought or acquired.   Spending less flows from that naturally.  It is about improving your life from the inside out, not the outside in.

This is a great perspective and I appreciate you sharing.  Point 4 is especially helpful.  I know, logically, that frugality isn't about deprivation.   Your perspective helps in making the emotional leap.

[tylerk]

I'm pretty new here, but my interpretation of the MMM philosophy is not to necessarily embrace radical frugality above all else, but make conscious choices in everything you do. The normal, expected behavior is to pay for a standard set of things (cell phone, tv, automobile, etc.) and get the most expensive version of each you can afford (or that someone's willing to lend you). I think many people haven't really considered the possibility that there's an alternative. It's a matter of weighing all aspects of your life against each other, having a good sense of your priorities, and being willing to be make potentially unorthodox choices in order to ensure that your lifestyle matches your priorities.

[PeteD01]

Hi averagejoe,

Don't let the other posters get you down.  Here is what I can see from your post.

1) You have lost a significant amount of weight, which means you have already proven that you have the ability to make big changes in your life.  This is awesome!  Hopefully you can use that same attitude to conquer your debt if you so choose.  You also make a great income and have really low housing expenses - I am very jealous because I live in MA where a nice house like you describe would probably cost me $3000-4000/mo.

2) You have a lot of credit card debt, but do not seem very concerned about it-  perhaps because you have a plan.   Around these parts we call CC debt a hair on fire emergency as in - no eating out, sell your car, live on rice and beans etc..etc.. and throw every last remaining cent at your debt.  However,  you may be more of a Dave Ramsey type and want to pay it off more gradually and that's okay, but don't be surprised if you see a lot of push back about it on this forum. 

3) There is an ideal out there that people on this forum seem to aspire to, but since everyone is different, no one will ever meet that ideal and shouldn't even try.  MMM drinks alcohol, and I don't.  To me, it is a ridiculous waste of money.  I don't want to live MMMs life.  That isn't the point.  I want to live my life and that means prioritizing different things than he does.    My goal is to go part time by age 50 then retire by 55 to be free to be a grandma or whatever life throws my way. 

4) What I get out of this blog more than anything else is that frugality doesn't have to be about deprivation.  It is a mindset of mindfulness and simple gratitude in everyday things that can't be bought or acquired.   Spending less flows from that naturally.  It is about improving your life from the inside out, not the outside in.

This is a great perspective and I appreciate you sharing.  Point 4 is especially helpful.  I know, logically, that frugality isn't about deprivation.   Your perspective helps in making the emotional leap.

Every time one buys something, one has to forgo buying something else, but no one ever calls that deprivation. On the other hand, when one buys productive assets instead of liabilities it is often called deprivation. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me as productive assets are much nicer to own in the long run than liabilities.