Author Topic: Husband came home in a rage today  (Read 18573 times)

OzzieandHarriet

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Husband came home in a rage today
« on: April 09, 2015, 05:21:20 PM »
There are things going on at his job that sound pretty bad, from what he tells me, and today he just exploded at me about it. I've been telling him for a while that we have enough money for him to retire or take a much lower paying job if he wants to, but he doesn't believe me. (This makes him sound like an asshole, but he's really not. Not generally, anyway!) He's 55 and is sure he can't get another job in his field, especially because he doesn't have a PhD, blah, blah, blah. I've been telling him he needs to figure out what he WANTS to do if he doesn't want to stay in this job, but he hasn't made a serious effort. Again, I think it's because he doesn't believe me.

Our joint assets, not counting our house or other possessions, are about $1.7 million, and our annual expenses (after taxes and not including health insurance, which we have with his job) are about $60k. I pay all the bills and handle the taxes and keep track of it all.


What can I say that will get things moving in a better direction?

TIA

The_path_less_taken

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2015, 05:32:17 PM »
If he's that upset right now...I probably wouldn't say anything today.

Sometimes people just need to vent.

As for long term....does he participate in LinkenIn or any social media where he could put out feelers for a better job?

Has he never said "I'd like to do that" while watching a movie or something...when somebody is relaxed in their own home is when a lot of real wants/needs are expressed.

Could part of it be he's worried about healthcare?

There are so many variables. I am not sure what to really advise you but I know this: we're here for you. Maybe you can casually pique his interest in these boards by laughing out loud while reading posts or something, or talking to a friend in front of him about "I saw it on the MMM board where somebody..."

Can lead a horse to water, yadda yadda. But if the horse thinks there's cool carrots by the stream you might have to jump the hell out of the way as he gallops down there on his own.

Best of luck.

Thalassa

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2015, 05:32:31 PM »
Tia,

This sounds like  a really difficult and delicate situation.  There are a lot of emotions tied up in jobs and money.  Emotions that cut to the core of personal identity.  Without more information about your husband and his work situation, it is difficult to know how to assuage him.  I would actually argue that it is not your job to assuage him.  His emotions at the end of the day are HIS responsibility.  You can show him the numbers, you can ask what he wants from life, but those are questions he needs to answer on his own.

Thalassa

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2015, 05:37:08 PM »
He is gambling with his life by remaining at that job.  If it causes him that much rage and stress, at 55 years old he is "good to go" for a heart attack or stroke brought about by a blood pressure spike during a rage event.

Any chance he can take a leave or a vacation to simmer down and think things through?

ChrisLansing

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2015, 05:45:00 PM »
I realize this is a delicate situation, but -

How can anyone have 1.7M in assets, expenses of $60K (which almost certainly would be less in retirement) and still put up with BS at work?   He's not old, but he's not exactly young either.   Time to retire or at least get a less stressful job.   Sit him down and gently beat him about the head and shoulders with a rolled up income statement. 

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2015, 05:59:04 PM »
I realize this is a delicate situation, but -

How can anyone have 1.7M in assets, expenses of $60K (which almost certainly would be less in retirement) and still put up with BS at work?   He's not old, but he's not exactly young either.   Time to retire or at least get a less stressful job.   Sit him down and gently beat him about the head and shoulders with a rolled up income statement.

Ha, exactly what I have been telling him for 2+ years (since I discovered MMM)! I've said it all kinds of ways. It seems to go in one ear and out the other without internal contact.

btw, my name isn't Tia -- TIA = thanks in advance.

The_path_less_taken

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2015, 06:54:18 PM »
I thought Tia was a cool name...but at least I learnt something today.

Ok Harriet, this is a guess, you see him naked daily so you know the real guy: is a big part of how he defines himself his job?

When he meets new people, is that one of the first things he says? "Hi I'm Bob, I'm in IT." Or how does he define himself? What does he chat about with cocktail party strangers?

Some people feel that their job is such a big part of who they are...leaving scares them. As in: who is the guy behind the curtain? Without the special effects, will anyone love the Wizard?

Will the Wizard love himself?

You're going to need to delve. You may need a backhoe to do so, but you have to get to the core guy and find out what is important to him.

Did he always wanna write the great American (or wherever) novel? Did he wish he'd build a sailboat? Learned to fly? Gone on a safari? Adopted an autistic child? Raced camels through the desert?

What's on his bucket list?

From your original post, the thing that jumped out at me was healthcare. Maybe he has no faith in Obamacare and the thought of you both sailing off into the sunset without 'coverage' just freaks him out.

I'd demand a vacation. Pronto. Naked, if necessary. And when he's nice and relaxed you can try and get at his desires and motivation for keeping the job.

Many men have trouble articulating core things.

But all men pay more attention naked. Just sayin'.  ;-0


Kris

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2015, 08:09:59 PM »
I realize this is a delicate situation, but -

How can anyone have 1.7M in assets, expenses of $60K (which almost certainly would be less in retirement) and still put up with BS at work?   He's not old, but he's not exactly young either.   Time to retire or at least get a less stressful job.   Sit him down and gently beat him about the head and shoulders with a rolled up income statement.

Ha, exactly what I have been telling him for 2+ years (since I discovered MMM)! I've said it all kinds of ways. It seems to go in one ear and out the other without internal contact.

btw, my name isn't Tia -- TIA = thanks in advance.

So, you have literally shown him the math, of how long it would take you to run out of money at current spending, and he still doesn't get it?

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2015, 08:29:33 PM »
I realize this is a delicate situation, but -

How can anyone have 1.7M in assets, expenses of $60K (which almost certainly would be less in retirement) and still put up with BS at work?   He's not old, but he's not exactly young either.   Time to retire or at least get a less stressful job.   Sit him down and gently beat him about the head and shoulders with a rolled up income statement.

Ha, exactly what I have been telling him for 2+ years (since I discovered MMM)! I've said it all kinds of ways. It seems to go in one ear and out the other without internal contact.

btw, my name isn't Tia -- TIA = thanks in advance.

So, you have literally shown him the math, of how long it would take you to run out of money at current spending, and he still doesn't get it?

He gets it intellectually, but it doesn't seem to register. And/or he treats it just another of my fleeting enthusiasms. He calmed down somewhat after a while this evening (but I can tell he's still seething) and he said it's the uncertainty of it that worries him.

I'm not saying he needs to quit tomorrow but that he doesn't need to be so worried. We don't have kids, we don't have debts, we have a very small mortgage payment, we have enough non retirement cash to live off of for 3 or 4 years even at current spending. But it's (almost) like talking to a wall.

My feeling about the health insurance is that between the two of us we could easily make enough doing enjoyable part-time or lower paying jobs to pay for it if we don't want to draw down our savings too much before we're eligible for Medicare. Assuming we still have the ACA or its equivalent -- but if we don't, we're all (the country, that is) in big trouble.

okits

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2015, 10:22:51 PM »
Does he want to get his PhD?  That could be a good outlet for his need for achievement and identity, and afterwards, if he still wants to work in his field, he won't have that barrier.

Though you have the money, it sounds like he doesn't have anything to retire to

MDM

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2015, 10:34:44 PM »
Our joint assets, not counting our house or other possessions, are about $1.7 million, and our annual expenses (after taxes and not including health insurance, which we have with his job) are about $60k. I pay all the bills and handle the taxes and keep track of it all.
Could you explain "annual expenses after taxes"?  I.e., does the $60K include taxes or do you spend $60K and also pay taxes?

The real question is "what do you expect for your total (expenses, taxes, insurance, etc. - everything) annual expenses after retirement?"  That's the number you should divided by the Safe Withdrawal Rate of your choosing to determine if your current assets are likely sufficient.

livetogive

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2015, 11:51:09 PM »
Does he want to get his PhD?  That could be a good outlet for his need for achievement and identity, and afterwards, if he still wants to work in his field, he won't have that barrier.

Though you have the money, it sounds like he doesn't have anything to retire to.

Getting ones PhD is no easy task.  I've only been out of academia for 5 years and I'm having an extremely hard time being competitive to even be accepted. There are zillions of free educational outlets available for learning but it's very hard to even get a chance to earn that particular degree.

Unfortunately work experience doesn't matter at all unless that work happened to be as an academic researcher.

He's lucky his rage work moments only started at 55.  If he's interested in education for educations sake I've had a lot of fun taking mathematics again to give my life some purpose other than an awful job.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 11:54:16 PM by TurboLT »

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2015, 01:59:52 AM »
Our joint assets, not counting our house or other possessions, are about $1.7 million, and our annual expenses (after taxes and not including health insurance, which we have with his job) are about $60k. I pay all the bills and handle the taxes and keep track of it all.
Could you explain "annual expenses after taxes"?  I.e., does the $60K include taxes or do you spend $60K and also pay taxes?

The real question is "what do you expect for your total (expenses, taxes, insurance, etc. - everything) annual expenses after retirement?"  That's the number you should divided by the Safe Withdrawal Rate of your choosing to determine if your current assets are likely sufficient.

That's not including income tax. Assuming an income about half of our current, I'm estimating we'd pay less than $10k federal per year.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 02:11:02 AM by OzzieandHarriet »

Leisured

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2015, 05:17:25 AM »
$1.7 million in assets, not counting your house. Are those assets invested and earning income? If so, does your investment income exceed $60K?  If so, there is no reason for your husband to feel uncertain.

dude

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2015, 07:14:57 AM »
If your health care is tied to his job and he leaves, how will that affect your annual expenses?  And if $60K doesn't include taxes, then your annual spend is probably closer to $70K.  If you are going to have to get health care on the exchanges, that could push your expenses to $75-$80K.  Assuming the $1.7mil is invested assets that you can draw down, that's $68K under the 4% rule.  Sounds like you may need to make some lifestyle adjustments if he were to retire.

rugorak

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2015, 07:54:36 AM »
Maybe you should come at this from a slightly different angle. Instead of trying to tell him that he can retire or work a lower paying job and have him listen but not hear why don't you plan out your retirement together? At 55 even a normal retirement is within 10 years. You should have a plan. Together figure out how much in savings/investments you are both comfortable with. Estimate costs post work. Plan out things you want to do. Maybe some of them will force you to spend more than you do now. Maybe there are some hard choices you have to make about your current spending. 60k seems pretty high to me. Maybe it is to him too. But the act of making a plan should force both of you to approach this differently. It forces both of you to engage together. Who knows, maybe he is saying similar things about you. He hears you say you think he can retire but he shares his worries and it just seems to bounce off you. A plan should hopefully conquer the communication issue.

Kansas Beachbum

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2015, 08:09:15 AM »
Can lead a horse to water, yadda yadda. But if the horse thinks there's cool carrots by the stream you might have to jump the hell out of the way as he gallops down there on his own.
Best of luck.

LOL, love this! 

As far as the topic goes, have you tried putting together a mock up of what your retired/semi-retired income would look like vs. your monthly budget?  Sometimes seeing it in black and white makes it seem more real.  Of course, I'm the one who constantly tells my kids "life is a math problem"...to a chorus of eye rolls. 

Best of luck, sounds like he needs to (and can...that's the good news) call it a career. 

GardenFun

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2015, 08:10:09 AM »
Maybe you should come at this from a slightly different angle. Instead of trying to tell him that he can retire or work a lower paying job and have him listen but not hear why don't you plan out your retirement together? At 55 even a normal retirement is within 10 years. You should have a plan. Together figure out how much in savings/investments you are both comfortable with. Estimate costs post work. Plan out things you want to do. Maybe some of them will force you to spend more than you do now. Maybe there are some hard choices you have to make about your current spending. 60k seems pretty high to me. Maybe it is to him too. But the act of making a plan should force both of you to approach this differently. It forces both of you to engage together. Who knows, maybe he is saying similar things about you. He hears you say you think he can retire but he shares his worries and it just seems to bounce off you. A plan should hopefully conquer the communication issue.

+1.  He sounds like a person who keeps asking himself "what if" - which is good as long as he communicates the "what if" questions verbally, enabling you to incorporate them in your planning.  For example, maybe he's worried about a 30% market downturn.  Create a Plan B to address it - part-time work, budget cuts, etc.  Make it fairly detailed - i.e. I would get a job at XX company that is always looking for part-time workers and pays $$/hr vs. I'll get a job.   

I also agree with the identity posts.  This is probably your best opportunity to hear him actually verbalize who he is. 

deeshen13

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2015, 10:30:46 AM »
Damn, maybe I'm in the minority here, but I wouldn't be with a partner who externalizes their work stresses on me with "rage venting".

Contrary to the notion that a relationship is "where you can vent about shitty work or people", my girlfriend and I specifically have our relationship as the "happy place" distinct from dealing with daily stresses.  Now, let me emphasis daily stresses.  For more serious life trials and tribulations, we are of course there for each other.

I guess I just categorized this as a daily stress; maybe it's perhaps a more fundamental serious issue you are trying to help with.  Still, "rage venting" is hardly a way I would let my partner talk to me about it.  But I'm a hippy.

JustPlainBill

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2015, 10:49:42 AM »
Speaking from my own male XY chromosome psychology and personal situation:

Maybe hubby's reluctance to accept the reality of your financial situation is related to his age, era of upbringing, and the engraved historical role of the man being the provider for the family.  Ward Cleaver 2015.

I'm the same chronological vintage as he is, and this is the reason why I don't tender my resignation and become a fishing guide in Wisconsin.

My hat is off to you for taking on the role of CFO for your family.  I spend way too much time with my face in Quicken tracking income vs expenses.

I've decided that I'm not too proud to become a kept man.

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2015, 10:52:01 AM »
If your health care is tied to his job and he leaves, how will that affect your annual expenses?  And if $60K doesn't include taxes, then your annual spend is probably closer to $70K.  If you are going to have to get health care on the exchanges, that could push your expenses to $75-$80K.  Assuming the $1.7mil is invested assets that you can draw down, that's $68K under the 4% rule.  Sounds like you may need to make some lifestyle adjustments if he were to retire.

About $14k of the 60K is mortgage payments (P&I) so although it's our largest expense, it isn't a permanent one. Principal is a bit more than half at this point, so as an expense it's really only about $7k (since the other half is adding to net worth). Those payments will be gone when we pay off the loan. We're 4 years into a 20-year mortgage at 3.875 so it doesn't make sense to pay it off right now even though we have the funds (they are invested and earning interest). There's places we could trim here and there. It wouldn't add up to that much -- we're already pretty frugal for a couple of baby boomers living in an expensive area -- but is certainly worth trying.

Cost of health insurance/care is impossible to say. I'm estimating up to $1k per month, but who knows? If the ACA is gutted and preexisting conditions aren't covered, that would be a problem.

I've been earning a bit more than $1k a month freelancing at various things -- I could get more work if I wanted to but it hasn't seemed necessary.

Husband is going to see if we can set up a session with a financial planner at our credit union soon to go over our total picture.

Everyone else, thanks for the comments and suggestions -- much appreciated.

lifejoy

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2015, 12:19:36 PM »
Maybe you can try this approach:

Speak his language.

For example, my husband listens to peer-reviewed studies and other empirical sources. He also listens to facts and numbers. So when I try to help him see things my way, I use information that I know will mean something to him.

With your husband, it sounds like there are some worries and fears around retirement. A lot of people are worried about having "enough" and they don't want to find themselves stuck in a bad situation. Could you perhaps create a powerpoint (or WHATEVER) of "if, then" scenarios, that could help ease his mind? Tailor this in a way that would speak to him.

Also, listen. Try to get to the root of his concerns. Or, each of you could describe a vision of how you'd like your future to be, and see if there is any crossover.

Good luck!

Candace

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2015, 01:04:34 PM »

Husband is going to see if we can set up a session with a financial planner at our credit union soon to go over our total picture.


I think this is one of the best things you can do together. He may not believe it coming from you that you're FI or at least close enough to quit and work a little here and there, but he may believe it coming from someone who's paid to know what you know already.

The identity questions are probably right on the nose too.

One other thing I haven't seen anyone mention is the possibility that the work stuff bothers him so much because he's one of those people who think things should make sense and people should act rationally? (I ask because I'm also one of those people. It really bugs me when things are not as they should be in the world according to me.) If so, he may need some sort of help to make a paradigm shift such that he can disconnect a bit from the situations that are annoying him so much.

I really hope you and he can alleviate his stress by getting him to realize he can say fuck you to his job if it's that bad.

Valhalla

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2015, 01:09:44 PM »
I realize this is a delicate situation, but -

How can anyone have 1.7M in assets, expenses of $60K (which almost certainly would be less in retirement) and still put up with BS at work?   He's not old, but he's not exactly young either.   Time to retire or at least get a less stressful job.   Sit him down and gently beat him about the head and shoulders with a rolled up income statement.
Some people just can't.  They've become conditioned that work is stressful, and making money is stressful.  When you work all your life like this, it's ingrained.

They refuse to believe life can be any other way.

justjenn

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2015, 01:20:35 PM »
Try to re-frame the conversation from "we have the money for you to do nothing (retire)" to "we have the money for you to do anything"

Many people think of retirement as this final chapter that happens when you're too decrepit to continue working so you're put out to pasture. No one likes to feel like they're not needed anymore. I know a few older adults who cling to their job because it's somewhere people rely on them to do something, no matter what their job is.

I agree with trying to plan out a retirement together. Tell him you've always dreamed of doing x, y, and z together, and you want him to get on board. You need him to be with you through this next adventure in your life together.

If he was the type to listen to numbers and facts, he would've quit already. Try an emotional appeal.

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2015, 01:32:44 PM »
About $14k of the 60K is mortgage payments (P&I) so although it's our largest expense, it isn't a permanent one. Principal is a bit more than half at this point, so as an expense it's really only about $7k (since the other half is adding to net worth). Those payments will be gone when we pay off the loan. We're 4 years into a 20-year mortgage at 3.875 so it doesn't make sense to pay it off right now even though we have the funds (they are invested and earning interest). There's places we could trim here and there. It wouldn't add up to that much -- we're already pretty frugal for a couple of baby boomers living in an expensive area -- but is certainly worth trying.

I reverse engineered the figures you gave, and I think your mortgage principal is ~185K.  If you have enough in taxable accounts, you might want to consider paying this off anyway.  It would be a good hedge against a declining stock market. 

Yes, it's a controversial subject around here because it's not "efficient," but it would reduce required withdrawals if they happen in a down market. You could even call it an "annuity" as it's in effect the same thing.

Also be very careful about the financial advisor.  If he is working for "free" he ABSOLUTELY WILL, without a doubt, steer you to products that earn him money.  He would also advocate against paying off the house for the same reason.  I highly recommend a flat fee advisor instead. 

socaso

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2015, 02:09:07 PM »
All these other suggestions are great and I hope your husband will agree to look closely into finances with you and perhaps realize he can retire comfortably. If he just can't let go of working right now I would suggest that he might need a career coach. I recently did 7 sessions with a career coach and it was very beneficial to me. I got my resume in order and came up with a solid game plan to find another job that was far and away different from the way I had job hunted in the past. Your husband is likely selling his experience short and a career coach can help him see that. Two recommendations: first interview more than one coach. I spoke to several nice people but there was one I really felt inspired by and I'm glad I went with her. Second, there are career coaches who specialize in all kinds of clients so find someone who has helped clients in your husband's situation before.

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2015, 02:34:25 PM »
I too would be very cautious in dealing with the credit union's "advisor."  They do the investment advice sessions for free because they are compensated by sales commissions and other fees from the companies that produce the products their "advisor" sells to you.   The "advisor" will likely recommend expensive mutual funds and annuities, neither of which you want.  Check the resumes of the advisors.  Most have sales background from brokerages or banks.

velocistar237

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2015, 02:46:05 PM »
I highly recommend a flat fee advisor instead.

A financial planner tried to sell me his services, and I asked if his service was fee-based. He answered yes but equivocated a bit. The right phrase was fee-only, which I'm sure he wasn't.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidmarotta/2012/06/11/fee-only-financial-planner-whats-the-difference/

begood

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2015, 02:56:10 PM »
All these other suggestions are great and I hope your husband will agree to look closely into finances with you and perhaps realize he can retire comfortably. If he just can't let go of working right now I would suggest that he might need a career coach. I recently did 7 sessions with a career coach and it was very beneficial to me. I got my resume in order and came up with a solid game plan to find another job that was far and away different from the way I had job hunted in the past. Your husband is likely selling his experience short and a career coach can help him see that. Two recommendations: first interview more than one coach. I spoke to several nice people but there was one I really felt inspired by and I'm glad I went with her. Second, there are career coaches who specialize in all kinds of clients so find someone who has helped clients in your husband's situation before.

I second the advice to consider meeting with a career coach. My husband has pretty much always been defined by his work, and a whole lot of his identity (let's say 90%) is tied up in what he does. It's going to be hard to unravel that when the time comes. Maybe the thing to do at this point with your spouse is some dream-weaving.

What would he do if he had a month off?

If he could go anywhere in the world, where would it be?

Take a mental vacation and envision something different.

Retired To Win

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2015, 09:11:28 AM »
I too would be very cautious in dealing with the credit union's "advisor."  They do the investment advice sessions for free because they are compensated by sales commissions and other fees from the companies that produce the products their "advisor" sells to you.   The "advisor" will likely recommend expensive mutual funds and annuities, neither of which you want.  Check the resumes of the advisors.  Most have sales background from brokerages or banks.

Over the years, I've let at least a half-dozen "financial advisors" pitch me. They all made a big show of gathering a lot of detailed information about me and my finances and of generating voluminous binders filled with analyses and charts.  But in the end, each of them pitched me on a limited set of financial products that did not actually fit with my investment persona and which very obviously were going to generate fat commissions for them.

I would not touch a financial advisor that was not fee-ONLY with a ten-foot pole.

jmusic

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2015, 01:03:01 PM »
Thanks for correcting me on the "flat fee" vs "fee only."  My only experience with a financial salesman advisor was 10 years ago.  It was in one of those storefronts right next to the military base I worked at (a SURE sign of a bad deal if there ever was one!). 

They sold me what amounted to a whole life plan at a pretty high cost using high pressure techniques.  Thankfully I did some research on it and cancelled it after 1 month. 

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2015, 05:26:28 PM »
Thanks for correcting me on the "flat fee" vs "fee only."  My only experience with a financial salesman advisor was 10 years ago.  It was in one of those storefronts right next to the military base I worked at (a SURE sign of a bad deal if there ever was one!). 

They sold me what amounted to a whole life plan at a pretty high cost using high pressure techniques.  Thankfully I did some research on it and cancelled it after 1 month.

Reading your reply I was starting to feel sorry for you.  Thank goodness you were able to cancel out of that scammy deal.

teacherwithamustache

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2015, 08:57:48 AM »
Is there an old colleague or mentor of your husband's that has retired that is enjoying their next stage in life?  Call him up and invite them over to dinner or go to a winery together for the weekend.  It sounds to me like your husband identifies himself too much with his career and needs to realize that retirement does not equal death.

My mom a Kindergarten teacher had the same problem.  She identified herself too much with her job.  All of her older friends started posting on Facebook about all of the cruises they were taking and fun they were having and she finally decided to take the plunge.  She has been more social in the last 5 years then the previous 60.

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2015, 11:33:40 AM »

Any chance he can take a leave or a vacation to simmer down and think things through?

I'm still curious about this.  I work in an office full of people that have never taken more than a week off at a time despite having 3-5 weeks of vacation a year.  I take a two week vacation every other year or so.  There are some studies out there that say you need at least 2 weeks to fully decompress and "reset".  My two weekers are never fancy, we just do a big road trip and visit family, but everytime I come back, I realize just how screwed up and stressful my workday is.  Towards the end of my trips I usually start feeling extra-excited about my hobbies and the whole world seems like a better place.  If your husband hasn't had a 2 week vacation in a few years, I strongly recommend him taking one.

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2015, 11:35:10 AM »
I think if we had a bunch more money, such that there would be no question we would ever run out, he wouldn't feel that clingy about his job. He has lots of interests and could find things to do. But as it is, unless we are a lot more careful and cost cutting, we MIGHT find ourselves short if there are unexpected expenses, especially health care, which is the wild card in all of this. (OTOH, I am sure we could survive on what we have now if we had to -- it just might not be as easy and comfortable as what we are doing now.)

I have to say that he has gone through this every few years at this job. He has worked for the same organization for more than 30 years, and every time there is a change there has been a mini-crisis. But he's so much older now it makes him more nervous. He's had some job interviews with really good places but hasn't made the cut.

I've tried the past couple of years to spend less and cut some things out just to see if it works for us but I can't force him to do likewise, and we're really both pretty frugal to begin with. As I said up thread, the things we could cut might add up to a few thousand a year, not enough to make that much difference.

We are going to talk to someone at the retirement plan for my old job this week and have them look over all our finances -- it's a free service they provide, so I thought it would be worthwhile. We did it a few years ago, and it was absolutely not a sales pitch of any kind, just informational. It seems most fee-only planners charge about $5,000 for this, which seems like a lot to me, so I hesitate to plunk that much down unnecessarily.

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2015, 08:00:41 PM »
So we met with someone today who ran our numbers through a calculator and told us we have enough to draw $80k per year (at 6% growth rate) and not run out of money until we're around 90. This made my husband feel a lot better. But I wasn't able to replicate that result myself using several different online calculators, so now *I'm* skeptical. Although I am certain we would be fine if we both earn something for some years out, even if it's not as much as he's making now.

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2015, 08:37:54 PM »
Can you move somewhere less expensive?  That's what we're planning once our kids are self-sufficient.  Maybe you can wipe out the mortgage and reduce your other expenses all at once.

It's kind of fun, finding all the things you won't need to spend money on.  Buzz off, life insurance company!   Down to 1 car, car insurance company!  No more swimming pool, take that pool supply store! 

And don't forget today's MMM blog post...

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2015, 10:50:33 PM »
I played around a little with firecalc, and when I included not paying the mortgage after the year we are scheduled to pay it off (i.e., taking it out of the budget), and then included earning $20k per year starting next year, there were zero failures for 35 years.


bacchi

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2015, 10:54:00 PM »
Did you include SS in 10-12 years?

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2015, 11:02:30 PM »
Did you include SS in 10-12 years?

No, I didn't. Nor did the financial person we talked with. Just to keep things simple -- and as extra insurance that this is going to work.

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2015, 09:40:59 AM »
Quote
especially health care, which is the wild card in all of this.

This need not be a wild card for you. There is a website for your state where you can shop for health insurance. Most exchanges allow you to "shop anonymously," in other words, to look for a plan you can use should you decide to quit today. If your state didn't create a Health Insurance Exchange, you can shop on healthcare.gov.

Most folks who get insurance through work, don't realize that they are overpaying for that coverage. Many companies have shifted costs to employees gradually over the last 15 years, so that the company subsidies are really quite small.  Since the insurance market is pretty competitive, espcially now that there is a website to let you compare things easily, you may be able to find a plan that works for you and spend less than you pay now.

One thing to watch out for, is high deductible plans. Many companies produce low, medium and high premium plans, which are all essentially the same benefits but the cheaper ones have high deductibles. If you rarely use health insurance, this may be a good deal for you, and you can set up an HSA to help with this. If you use health insurance often, the high premium plan is probably best.

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2015, 11:01:05 AM »
Harriet, I retired at age 43 and that was 26 years ago.  I did not have the assets that you have.  There is no question in my mind at all that you have more than enough to retire.  Money is NOT the problem and all the comments here about money and withdrawal rates, healthcare, etc. are to my mind at least just red herrings.  People can 'what if' anything and get 'paralysis by analysis'.

The only question I see is whether your husband wants to retire or not.  If the answer to that is yes, then you will find the way to make it work financially.  But if he does not actually want to retire that is a whole different topic isn't it.

Deciding to retire is not a financial decision however much people might think it is.  I decided to retire at age 35 when I had NO money and THEN I figured out how to do so financially in just 7 years.  Deciding to retire is an emotional decision.  But as the saying goes, 'when emotion comes in the door, logic goes out the window.'  Trying to argue logically that you can financially afford to retire does not work when the emotional decision to retire has not been made yet.

As I read what you have written, you are going through all the financial steps but your husband has never said he wants to retire.  It is a big step and for some people, a near impossible decision to make EMOTIONALLY.

I like the analogy of the trapeze.  It goes like this.  You are swinging on a trapeze (in your husband's case, for 30 years).  There is another trapeze swinging in counterpoint and you look at it and think, 'I might like swinging on that trapeze better but I don't know.'  The problem is, the two never actually come close enough together that you can grab the new one without letting go of the old one.  Got the picture?  To grab on to the new trapeze you have to literally make a 'leap of faith' and that's pretty scary.  No one can make you take that leap until you (your husband in this case) see the potential reward as worth the risk.

If your husband decides he WANTS to retire, that is when the reward outweighs the risk and not before.  Money is not the problem.

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2015, 11:36:57 AM »
OldPro, I believe you are right about that! He has never said he wants to retire. He HAS said he would like to find another job, although as someone else said, he's lucky that it's taken this long for rage to set in, so maybe this one isn't so bad.

What I've been trying to tell him is that if he finds something else he'd rather do that pays a lot less, we would be more than okay. But I guess there's a loss of status involved that he may not think he cares about, but he does.

I also think he and a lot of other people are resistant to the idea of retirement because it makes them feel old and they're not ready for that.

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Re: Husband came home in a rage today
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2015, 05:24:57 PM »
... Deciding to retire is not a financial decision however much people might think it is.  I decided to retire at age 35 when I had NO money and THEN I figured out how to do so financially in just 7 years.  Deciding to retire is an emotional decision.  But as the saying goes, 'when emotion comes in the door, logic goes out the window.'  Trying to argue logically that you can financially afford to retire does not work when the emotional decision to retire has not been made yet...

I like the analogy of the trapeze.  It goes like this.  You are swinging on a trapeze (in your husband's case, for 30 years).  There is another trapeze swinging in counterpoint and you look at it and think, 'I might like swinging on that trapeze better but I don't know.'  The problem is, the two never actually come close enough together that you can grab the new one without letting go of the old one.  Got the picture?  To grab on to the new trapeze you have to literally make a 'leap of faith' and that's pretty scary.  No one can make you take that leap until you... see the potential reward as worth the risk.

If your husband decides he WANTS to retire, that is when the reward outweighs the risk and not before.  Money is not the problem.

Brilliant.  BRILLIANT!

 

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