Author Topic: Hurtful Comments  (Read 24914 times)

sb_NoVA

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Hurtful Comments
« on: June 14, 2015, 04:52:36 PM »
I came across MMM's article on Marketwatch.  Scrolling down, I found these hurtful comments.  What drives people to post in such an inconsiderate, naive, and thoughtless manner?

"
Gerry Keefe Dec 28, 2014

This is the "millionaire next door" story again.  If you save everything, don't spend a dime and live like a homeless person, you can "retire" early.  Except he left out things like taxes, college costs, home repairs, cars, etc.  If you want to live in a refrigerator box you can live on $25,000 annually, but most of us want more out of life.  Careers, educated kids, and yes, even a big screen TV.  So, although these are headline grabbing ideas, in practice they are ridiculous and very uncommon.  This guy's life isn't the envy of anyone but his barefoot kids, who will probably not amount to much more than he did.  This isn't retirement at all, its escapism, and sounds like life in Alaska, in a remote cabin.  In other words, he gave up, quit and ran away, and now he has to rationalize it to everyone else in a blog

ChrisLansing

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2015, 04:56:23 PM »
The man who won't read has nothing on the man who can't.   

lizzzi

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2015, 04:59:09 PM »
Good grief, what an uncalled for comment. I'll try to take the high road (not that he did) and say that he probably just flipped off a quick put-down without really understanding the philosophy he was criticizing.

Cpa Cat

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2015, 05:41:53 PM »
I came across MMM's article on Marketwatch.  Scrolling down, I found these hurtful comments.  What drives people to post in such an inconsiderate, naive, and thoughtless manner?

Defensiveness. MMM pretty resoundedly attacks their way of life, their financial management, their personal choices. People don't like to admit that they're wrong. They don't even like to consider it.

A lot goes in to convincing people - men especially - that working is righteous. You must -provide-. What's more, you're not supposed to just provide the basics, you're supposed to provide as much as you possibly can by working as hard as you can. That's your virtuous life filled with manly sacrifice.

People who don't work are lazy. This is why some people are poor. This is why some children are filthy, shoeless and uneducated and why bedbugs exist. Some other people don't work because they are rich. But only because they are lucky or inherited a lot of money. Plus, everyone knows that rich people who don't work are lazy and worthless - they essentially have no souls.

The guy who wrote that comment can't compute the idea that he could actually be better off by not working - if he lays the right groundwork and plans appropriately. He doesn't want to admit that it's within his reach, and he's just... not doing it. He doesn't want to admit that he's just not trying hard enough.

Up until now, everyone and everything in his life has told him that your career is how you measure success, and your reward is educated kids and big screen TVs. Then MMM comes along and says there's a different measure of success - and your reward is free time and happiness (plus, I'm pretty sure your kids can still be educated). But ole Gerry is failing under MMM's measure of success. MMM just came along and told him that he's an utter failure. Gerry's not ready to hear that.

mtnrider

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2015, 05:47:38 PM »
Yuck.

That was hardly a reasoned critique.  (For one, MMM is only tangentially related to "Millionaire Next Door", a book which is  interesting, but IMHO, flawed.)

The kernel of truth is that mustachianism is indeed going against the grain of the message of commercialism that we often encounter.  And most people (including that commenter) aren't going to think critically about their life, but want to keep running on the hedonic treadmill.  And they lash out, looking to make themselves feel better by putting someone else down.

It can be hard, but sometimes one just needs to let those comments go, or they'll eat you up.

Norrie

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2015, 05:52:59 PM »
I may be wrong, but I don't think that MMM would find it very hurtful. I think that he'd shrug his shoulders and go on living the awesome life that he's created with his family. I agree with Cpa Cat that defensiveness makes people spew ridiculous shit, and this reeks of it to me.

arebelspy

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2015, 06:01:29 PM »
I may be wrong, but I don't think that MMM would find it very hurtful. I think that he'd shrug his shoulders and go on living the awesome life that he's created with his family. I agree with Cpa Cat that defensiveness makes people spew ridiculous shit, and this reeks of it to me.

Agreed, I think Pete would laugh at how misguided it is.

I just feel bad for the person, who truly doesn't get it, and likely isn't very happy (they might be, but I think it's more likely than not that they aren't).  I hope they are though, and I hope their spending/relationship with money isn't hurting them or their family or their long term goals.
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Mrs.LC

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2015, 08:31:58 PM »
Wow.  Someone needed their Starbucks before responding to an article.  Yes those are hurt full comments but you can't let one ignorant person's comments interfere with your goals.  I do have to say that Mr. LC and I live in the best refrigerator boxes I've seen!!

Elderwood17

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2015, 08:36:15 PM »
When people are completely dismissive like this responder was I also wonder why they bother to post at all- defensiveness?

Jags4186

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2015, 09:00:45 PM »
I can understand people thinking MMM is extreme and wouldn't want to manage their lives like he has.  The vitriol spewed towards him though...

sb_NoVA

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2015, 09:28:38 PM »

Thanks for your insightful response Cpa Cat!  Your arguments filled the void in my mind about Gerry's post. 

I came across MMM's article on Marketwatch.  Scrolling down, I found these hurtful comments.  What drives people to post in such an inconsiderate, naive, and thoughtless manner?

Defensiveness. MMM pretty resoundedly attacks their way of life, their financial management, their personal choices. People don't like to admit that they're wrong. They don't even like to consider it.

A lot goes in to convincing people - men especially - that working is righteous. You must -provide-. What's more, you're not supposed to just provide the basics, you're supposed to provide as much as you possibly can by working as hard as you can. That's your virtuous life filled with manly sacrifice.

People who don't work are lazy. This is why some people are poor. This is why some children are filthy, shoeless and uneducated and why bedbugs exist. Some other people don't work because they are rich. But only because they are lucky or inherited a lot of money. Plus, everyone knows that rich people who don't work are lazy and worthless - they essentially have no souls.

The guy who wrote that comment can't compute the idea that he could actually be better off by not working - if he lays the right groundwork and plans appropriately. He doesn't want to admit that it's within his reach, and he's just... not doing it. He doesn't want to admit that he's just not trying hard enough.

Up until now, everyone and everything in his life has told him that your career is how you measure success, and your reward is educated kids and big screen TVs. Then MMM comes along and says there's a different measure of success - and your reward is free time and happiness (plus, I'm pretty sure your kids can still be educated). But ole Gerry is failing under MMM's measure of success. MMM just came along and told him that he's an utter failure. Gerry's not ready to hear that.

okits

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2015, 10:13:08 PM »
Convention exists because most people subscribe to it. They have a lot invested in the status quo and will defend it, prefering to be conventionally unhappy rather than consider unconventional happiness. Plus, the anonymity of internet commenting allows people to post before thinking with few consequences.

Cathy

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2015, 10:31:27 PM »
Quote
...sounds like life in Alaska...

I'm not sure what this internet commentator has against Alaska. I've actually considered it as a retirement destination. Low cost of housing (actually average for the USA, but that's very low compared to what I'm used to), no state income tax, no state sales tax, and a state dividend for residents of almost $2,000 per year with no means-testing (which represents a nontrivial fraction of my non-housing living expenses).
« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 10:41:17 PM by Cathy »

Redstone5

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2015, 12:41:07 AM »
I truly believe that the people on this forum think about our lives and choices in a more analytical and purposeful way than most people.

Most people are more comfortable just going with the flow and never questioning their values or methods, and they are threatened by those who do things differently.

BlueHouse

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2015, 05:21:29 AM »

Agreed, I think Pete would laugh at how misguided it is.

I just feel bad for the person, who truly doesn't get it, and likely isn't very happy (they might be, but I think it's more likely than not that they aren't).  I hope they are though, and I hope their spending/relationship with money isn't hurting them or their family or their long term goals.
He'll probably laugh, but isn't the first rule of the Internet to NOT attack the children of someone whose views you don't agree with.  I agree with the OP simply because this guy brought the kid into it and wants to try to make the kid feel shame for his parents' choice to be home with him. For that, Gerry is pond scum in my book.

Rollin

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2015, 06:51:43 AM »
I came across MMM's article on Marketwatch.  Scrolling down, I found these hurtful comments.  What drives people to post in such an inconsiderate, naive, and thoughtless manner?

"
Gerry Keefe Dec 28, 2014

This is the "millionaire next door" story again.  If you save everything, don't spend a dime and live like a homeless person, you can "retire" early.  Except he left out things like taxes, college costs, home repairs, cars, etc.  If you want to live in a refrigerator box you can live on $25,000 annually, but most of us want more out of life.  Careers, educated kids, and yes, even a big screen TV.  So, although these are headline grabbing ideas, in practice they are ridiculous and very uncommon.  This guy's life isn't the envy of anyone but his barefoot kids, who will probably not amount to much more than he did.  This isn't retirement at all, its escapism, and sounds like life in Alaska, in a remote cabin.  In other words, he gave up, quit and ran away, and now he has to rationalize it to everyone else in a blog
"

Forgive them for they know not what they do.  Add to that billions of dollars spent each year on advertising and he (the commenter) has been suckered!

fartface

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2015, 07:46:28 AM »
Can someone please copy/paste my rebuttal to this douche?

Hey Gerry,

I got not one, but TWO flat screen TV's. I don't have cable though. I watch Netflix or local channels w/my digital antennas. TV is mostly a waste of time, so the less I watch it the better for me.

I don't live in a refrigerator box...I live in a 2400 square foot home with 4 bedrooms, 2 1/2 baths, 3 car garage. Home was built in 2010 and it's completely paid for.

I save 50% of my gross annual income and my investments last year earned me $50K on top of my savings.

My kids' college fund -- should they choose to pursue that route -- is fully funded already and the oldest still has four years of HS to go.

We vacation annually...usually 2weeks or more at a time. My kids have had passports since the youngest was 5. Give me a break dude. We spend strategically on the things that matter.

We don't eat out or run up huge bar tabs weekly. We drive paid off 10+ year old cars. We bike, bike, bike and have very short commutes to work. We don't espouse clown-like car habits. We don't idle in the Starbucks drive-through on our way to work EVER.

We credit card churn and that provides thousands towards our vacation fund.

We don't visit shopping malls or online retailers. Clothing and shoes manufactured in China brings us no happiness. We buy clothes for comfort and warmth...style is not the end game here. We buy our clothes used because it reduces our carbon footprint on the earth. Every time you make a purchase at a department store, you deplete their inventory and they order more product from China which results in pollution. When you buy clothing used, you are not increasing demand you're buying something that's already been produced.

We don't flush our toilets after every pee. Why would we wast 5 gallons of clean water to flush down a few ounces of urine? The world is suffering a global water shortage...

We never, EVER buy plastic bottles of water. That is one of the stupidest most harmful and irresponsible things you can possibly do. Don't believe me, google the Great Pacific Garbage Patch.

I guess I'm getting a little off base here...but the point is: being environmentally responsible while desiring less consumables than the average American makes you not only wealthier but a much better human being IMHO.


Redstone5

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2015, 09:10:59 AM »
Can someone please copy/paste my rebuttal to this douche?

Hey Gerry,

I got not one, but TWO flat screen TV's. I don't have cable though. I watch Netflix or local channels w/my digital antennas. TV is mostly a waste of time, so the less I watch it the better for me.

I don't live in a refrigerator box...I live in a 2400 square foot home with 4 bedrooms, 2 1/2 baths, 3 car garage. Home was built in 2010 and it's completely paid for.

I save 50% of my gross annual income and my investments last year earned me $50K on top of my savings.

My kids' college fund -- should they choose to pursue that route -- is fully funded already and the oldest still has four years of HS to go.

We vacation annually...usually 2weeks or more at a time. My kids have had passports since the youngest was 5. Give me a break dude. We spend strategically on the things that matter.

We don't eat out or run up huge bar tabs weekly. We drive paid off 10+ year old cars. We bike, bike, bike and have very short commutes to work. We don't espouse clown-like car habits. We don't idle in the Starbucks drive-through on our way to work EVER.

We credit card churn and that provides thousands towards our vacation fund.

We don't visit shopping malls or online retailers. Clothing and shoes manufactured in China brings us no happiness. We buy clothes for comfort and warmth...style is not the end game here. We buy our clothes used because it reduces our carbon footprint on the earth. Every time you make a purchase at a department store, you deplete their inventory and they order more product from China which results in pollution. When you buy clothing used, you are not increasing demand you're buying something that's already been produced.

We don't flush our toilets after every pee. Why would we wast 5 gallons of clean water to flush down a few ounces of urine? The world is suffering a global water shortage...

We never, EVER buy plastic bottles of water. That is one of the stupidest most harmful and irresponsible things you can possibly do. Don't believe me, google the Great Pacific Garbage Patch.

I guess I'm getting a little off base here...but the point is: being environmentally responsible while desiring less consumables than the average American makes you not only wealthier but a much better human being IMHO.

I wish everyone thought this way!

2ndTimer

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2015, 09:46:22 AM »
I don't see the comment as hurtful any more than I would see someone running in circles, shouting, "I am an idiot!" and hitting himself on the head with a rock hurtful.  Very similar behavior really.

NorCal

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2015, 10:02:28 AM »
Meh, this is the internet.  The internet was designed for inconsiderate anonymous attacks and porn.

While those comments certainly aren't polite, the tone is no different than you'd find on this forums "anti-mustachian wall of shame".

It's okay if people have different values than you and express them on the internet.

Chris22

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2015, 10:40:06 AM »
Have you guys ever read one of MMM's columns?  They are FAR more dismissive and insulting than this guy's little rant.  You can only read "if you don't quit your job to ride bikes and wander around the mountains you're fucking stupid" so many times before you respond like the comentator in the OP.  Amusing to read so many "he insults our lifestyle because he doesn't understand it" comments from the peanut gallery here that spends much electrons insulting the lifestyle of others. 

ash7962

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2015, 11:08:32 AM »
Gotta give the guy a little slack.  Its crazy how deeply ingrained being a breadwinner/making money is for some men.  The comment in the OP reminds me of the attitude my Dad has (except comment is a bit meaner). 

My Dad recently went through a crisis where he lost his income stream, and spiraled into a depression.  Basically what I hear is "I'm a loser", "I'm not contributing to the family", "I need a job making at least 50k and I need to work until I'm 65, then we can withdraw 80k/year".  Its like he can't allow himself to not work until he gets to that arbitrary magic age.  I've asked him what he'll spend all that money on, and he says travel.  80k/year is literally double what they spend now so 40k/year on travelling (super crazy).  I've tried talking him into finding some hobbies that bring him joy as well as working to lower the household expenses, but then he says his hobby is making money and for the lowering expenses its "We can't LIVE like that" or "We need to redo the kitchen!".  Just seems like he doesn't really have an idea of why he wants so much money, but just wholeheartedly believes he needs to have it.  I've asked him to think about these things a bit, but I don't think its easy to reevaluate something you've believed for the past 40-50 years of your life.  If you spend over half your life working and sacrificing for something and are told that it didn't really matter after all, then I think anyone would try to fight that reality.

arebelspy

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2015, 11:22:38 AM »
Have you guys ever read one of MMM's columns?  They are FAR more dismissive and insulting than this guy's little rant.  You can only read "if you don't quit your job to ride bikes and wander around the mountains you're fucking stupid" so many times before you respond like the comentator in the OP.  Amusing to read so many "he insults our lifestyle because he doesn't understand it" comments from the peanut gallery here that spends much electrons insulting the lifestyle of others.



Stop, you're killing me.
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If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
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TRBeck

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2015, 11:45:27 AM »
Have you guys ever read one of MMM's columns?  They are FAR more dismissive and insulting than this guy's little rant.  You can only read "if you don't quit your job to ride bikes and wander around the mountains you're fucking stupid" so many times before you respond like the comentator in the OP.  Amusing to read so many "he insults our lifestyle because he doesn't understand it" comments from the peanut gallery here that spends much electrons insulting the lifestyle of others.
Is that amusement the only reason you're a member here? Otherwise, I have a hard time understanding what you're getting out of these forums.

kpd905

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2015, 12:03:03 PM »
If you want to find the dregs of society, just scroll down to the comments section of any news article.  It is where the highly opinionated come to blow off steam.

Chris22

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2015, 12:10:21 PM »
Have you guys ever read one of MMM's columns?  They are FAR more dismissive and insulting than this guy's little rant.  You can only read "if you don't quit your job to ride bikes and wander around the mountains you're fucking stupid" so many times before you respond like the comentator in the OP.  Amusing to read so many "he insults our lifestyle because he doesn't understand it" comments from the peanut gallery here that spends much electrons insulting the lifestyle of others.
Is that amusement the only reason you're a member here? Otherwise, I have a hard time understanding what you're getting out of these forums.

I'm interested in FI, but not RE, and thus the sacrifices people make to RE aren't interesting to me.  I'm more interested in (relative) minimalism than RE.

Eric

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2015, 12:26:44 PM »
Have you guys ever read one of MMM's columns?  They are FAR more dismissive and insulting than this guy's little rant.  You can only read "if you don't quit your job to ride bikes and wander around the mountains you're fucking stupid" so many times before you respond like the comentator in the OP.  Amusing to read so many "he insults our lifestyle because he doesn't understand it" comments from the peanut gallery here that spends much electrons insulting the lifestyle of others.
Is that amusement the only reason you're a member here? Otherwise, I have a hard time understanding what you're getting out of these forums.

I'm interested in FI, but not RE, and thus the sacrifices people make to RE aren't interesting to me.  I'm more interested in (relative) minimalism than RE.

Interesting perspective, but I think you'll find that these "sacrifices" are anything but.  It's hardly a sacrifice to ride my bike everywhere.  It's the preferred mode of travel.  Similar to camping in the mountains.  That's much preferred to some snooty 5 star hotel.

Lis

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2015, 12:43:21 PM »
If you want to find the dregs of society, just scroll down to the comments section of any news article.  It is where the highly opinionated come to blow off steam.

This.

There's also a section of this forum called the Wall of Shame and Comedy where users here are allowed, nay, encouraged to make 'hurtful comments' about the choices other people make.

Chris22

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2015, 12:47:12 PM »
Have you guys ever read one of MMM's columns?  They are FAR more dismissive and insulting than this guy's little rant.  You can only read "if you don't quit your job to ride bikes and wander around the mountains you're fucking stupid" so many times before you respond like the comentator in the OP.  Amusing to read so many "he insults our lifestyle because he doesn't understand it" comments from the peanut gallery here that spends much electrons insulting the lifestyle of others.
Is that amusement the only reason you're a member here? Otherwise, I have a hard time understanding what you're getting out of these forums.

I'm interested in FI, but not RE, and thus the sacrifices people make to RE aren't interesting to me.  I'm more interested in (relative) minimalism than RE.

Interesting perspective, but I think you'll find that these "sacrifices" are anything but.  It's hardly a sacrifice to ride my bike everywhere.  It's the preferred mode of travel.  Similar to camping in the mountains.  That's much preferred to some snooty 5 star hotel.

That's one opinion.  Mine is that I don't like having to ride a bike (riding to the park on my own timeline is good, having to ride to work when I need to be there at a specific time, or need to haul stuff home, etc is not) and camping sucks.  Tried it, didn't like it, not interested in doing it more.  Here's the last vacation I took, not your typical "snooty 5 star hotel" but it was friggin' wonderful: 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/annabel/2013/01/17/best-of-the-old-school-caribbean-caneel-bay-resort-in-st-john-u-s-virgin-islands/


mathlete

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2015, 12:53:20 PM »
The man who won't read has nothing on the man who can't.   

I've never heard this before. I like it.

trobertson79

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2015, 01:02:20 PM »
If this person thinks Millionaire next door is extreme MMM is going to blow their mind.

TRBeck

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2015, 01:03:01 PM »
That's one opinion.  Mine is that I don't like having to ride a bike (riding to the park on my own timeline is good, having to ride to work when I need to be there at a specific time, or need to haul stuff home, etc is not) and camping sucks.  Tried it, didn't like it, not interested in doing it more.  Here's the last vacation I took, not your typical "snooty 5 star hotel" but it was friggin' wonderful: 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/annabel/2013/01/17/best-of-the-old-school-caribbean-caneel-bay-resort-in-st-john-u-s-virgin-islands/
The resort looks terrific.

That said, I think the point is that the term "sacrifices" is presumptuous. For you, cycling might be a sacrifice, but for many here, it isn't. I think drinking cheap beer or eating storebought bread are sacrifices, but you might not. Not a problem. However, coupled with some of your previous posts, it comes across as a pejorative term. If you have expensive hobbies and tastes, okay, but don't assume that everyone who doesn't is just kidding themselves and making huge sacrifices. It's as offensive as the notion that you're an idiot if you don't want to quit your job and ride your bike all day.

BTW, I do have expensive taste in beer, coffee, and wetshaving. I don't make many sacrifices when it comes to these things, although I have learned to minimize costs without sacrifice in these areas, as I'm guessing you have when it comes to travel or whatever else you're into.

Chris22

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2015, 01:05:02 PM »
The resort looks terrific.

That said, I think the point is that the term "sacrifices" is presumptuous. For you, cycling might be a sacrifice, but for many here, it isn't.

And the point is, MMM generally ridicules anyone who thinks it is a sacrifice. 

mathlete

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2015, 01:20:56 PM »
I'll say that I understand what provokes comments like this. MMM is kind of a blowhard sometimes because being the guy who voices extreme opinions in an "in-your-face" kind of way garners readership on the internet.

I think if most people took the time to read and think a bit about it, they would find that it isn't about setting the AC to 80 degrees or eating rice and beans for every meal. It is about taking an honest look at what your priorities are and then reallocating your resources accordingly.

Eric

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2015, 01:23:09 PM »
The resort looks terrific.

That said, I think the point is that the term "sacrifices" is presumptuous. For you, cycling might be a sacrifice, but for many here, it isn't.

And the point is, MMM generally ridicules anyone who thinks it is a sacrifice.

Bikes are basically money printing machines.  Of course he encourages you to ride one.  I'd do the same.  I'm not sure where the ridicule enters the picture though.  His ridicule is generally reserved for people who complain about how hard it is for the middle class, all while buying a huge suburban home and commuting 2 hours a day in a monstrous SUV to a job they don't like and then rather than change anything, continue to complain.  If you have an article by MMM that states something like "anyone who doesn't ride a bike everywhere is dumb", then by all means, post it and I'd be happy to eat my hat.  I'm pretty sure that doesn't exist however, and you're setting up a strawman here.

TRBeck

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2015, 01:32:51 PM »
The resort looks terrific.

That said, I think the point is that the term "sacrifices" is presumptuous. For you, cycling might be a sacrifice, but for many here, it isn't.

And the point is, MMM generally ridicules anyone who thinks it is a sacrifice.
Well, he ridicules people who don't have working bikes, people who refuse to try cycling, and people who drive ridiculously short distances instead of cycling or walking. All of which I'm good with. He also points out that needless car driving sucks. He's right. If that offends or annoys you, well, mission accomplished. A two-ton vehicle spewing pollution everywhere and blocking up the road is more obnoxious than any comment MMM or anyone else could make.

If you're driving a reasonable vehicle for a reasonable purpose, I doubt MMM would have much bad to say about it.

Chris22

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2015, 01:38:45 PM »
If you have an article by MMM that states something like "anyone who doesn't ride a bike everywhere is dumb", then by all means, post it and I'd be happy to eat my hat.  I'm pretty sure that doesn't exist however, and you're setting up a strawman here.


Mmm hmm

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/04/22/curing-your-clown-like-car-habit/

"After years of careful study, observations, and interviews with real car drivers, I have come to the conclusion that about 90% of the car use that occurs in the United States is Pure Bullshit."

"When I see a car ease into a parking spot, I always run to assist the driver with getting out into their wheelchair, but I am stunned to find that they usually have working legs after all! "

"Clogging roads and creating demand for roadway expansion, indirectly raising your own taxes. It’s a whole lot of badness we’re doing, every time we drive. It’s not just a matter of “Hey, it’ll only cost me ten bucks for the gas”. It’s a matter of choosing to be an asshole."

"Just acknowledge that whenever you turn the key, you need to say, “Here we go. I’m being an asshole again”."

And on and on.  Want some ketchup with that hat?

Kris

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2015, 01:44:20 PM »
That's one opinion.  Mine is that I don't like having to ride a bike (riding to the park on my own timeline is good, having to ride to work when I need to be there at a specific time, or need to haul stuff home, etc is not) and camping sucks.  Tried it, didn't like it, not interested in doing it more.  Here's the last vacation I took, not your typical "snooty 5 star hotel" but it was friggin' wonderful: 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/annabel/2013/01/17/best-of-the-old-school-caribbean-caneel-bay-resort-in-st-john-u-s-virgin-islands/
The resort looks terrific.

That said, I think the point is that the term "sacrifices" is presumptuous. For you, cycling might be a sacrifice, but for many here, it isn't. I think drinking cheap beer or eating storebought bread are sacrifices, but you might not. Not a problem. However, coupled with some of your previous posts, it comes across as a pejorative term. If you have expensive hobbies and tastes, okay, but don't assume that everyone who doesn't is just kidding themselves and making huge sacrifices. It's as offensive as the notion that you're an idiot if you don't want to quit your job and ride your bike all day.

BTW, I do have expensive taste in beer, coffee, and wetshaving. I don't make many sacrifices when it comes to these things, although I have learned to minimize costs without sacrifice in these areas, as I'm guessing you have when it comes to travel or whatever else you're into.

I agree.  I think that MMM's point is that we consume a lot of things mindlessly.  And that when you examine your life and really try to do so in a way that optimizes happiness, you realize that the expensive spa package you've been treating yourself to once a month just isn't really doing anything for you, or that your Starbucks habit has stopped being anything but a routine that really isn't bringing you any pleasure, or that the excitement of the fancy new car you bought yourself last year has completely evaporated and it feels no "better" than driving your old beater -- but you've still got four more years of car payments. 

My life is definitely better for examining it in this way.  I found MMM in December, and I've already saved approximately $7,000 MORE this year so far just from being more intentional about our spending and saving.  And I do not feel that I have deprived myself at all.  I think that MMM's approach, while perhaps a little abrasive (the better to engage the audience), is a good one in that he makes you look around and realize that the vast majority of us make stupid decisions about spending money that make us no happier, and in many cases make us much less happy.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 07:59:30 AM by Kris »

Lis

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2015, 01:47:22 PM »
This is why I've stopped reading his articles for the most part, and typically just stick to the forum. There are plenty of users who love to mimic is sentiments, but I try to ignore those. While I admit to trying to participate in the Overheard and Work and Facebook posts when I first started, I ignore those too now.

The MMM forum can be a great place to learn tricks of the trade from people who share your beliefs, but it gets hard to chew once people start overly judging other people for their choices to the point that it's ridicule.

Eric

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2015, 01:50:31 PM »
If you have an article by MMM that states something like "anyone who doesn't ride a bike everywhere is dumb", then by all means, post it and I'd be happy to eat my hat.  I'm pretty sure that doesn't exist however, and you're setting up a strawman here.


Mmm hmm

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/04/22/curing-your-clown-like-car-habit/

And?  I love that article, but it's certainly not stating that you should never drive.  In fact, it specifically lays out times when it's okay.

Quote from: MMM
My town represents the ultimate laboratory for studying Car Clown disease, as it is sufficiently small and bike-friendly that car trips within town are completely unnecessary. Since groceries and kids are easily handled by a bike trailer, the only reason to drive would be physical impairment, transporting items too large for a trailer, or driving to another city.

The point it is to challenge you, to get you out of your comfort zone and to make you actually think about what you're doing and why.  If you think the point is ridicule, then I think you should look a little deeper.

TRBeck

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2015, 01:53:30 PM »
The resort looks terrific.

That said, I think the point is that the term "sacrifices" is presumptuous. For you, cycling might be a sacrifice, but for many here, it isn't.

And the point is, MMM generally ridicules anyone who thinks it is a sacrifice.
Well, he ridicules people who don't have working bikes, people who refuse to try cycling, and people who drive ridiculously short distances instead of cycling or walking. All of which I'm good with. He also points out that needless car driving sucks. He's right. If that offends or annoys you, well, mission accomplished. A two-ton vehicle spewing pollution everywhere and blocking up the road is more obnoxious than any comment MMM or anyone else could make.

If you're driving a reasonable vehicle for a reasonable purpose, I doubt MMM would have much bad to say about it.
Well cant that ridicule work both ways?
I mean yea is that bike really meant to be ridden on the service road of a highway?
Oh yeah and nice jerzey there with like ad logos on them are you in competition with lance Armstrong or if he's sick do you plan on taking his place?
Yeah and nice that your bike costs more than my car

I wear street clothes when I ride the <$500 bike that I bought from a local shop. I have taken it on the service road of the highway but (thankfully) don't often need to go on a highway.

Also, consider punctuation and spell check.

Finally, the point of the ridicule, as Eric rightly points out, is not to make fun, but to challenge you and to make you think.

Kris

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2015, 01:57:12 PM »
The point it is to challenge you, to get you out of your comfort zone and to make you actually think about what you're doing and why.  If you think the point is ridicule, then I think you should look a little deeper.

Exactly.  I don't really get why some people have such a hard time understanding this.  I live a thirty minute drive away from my work, and my husband's work is twenty-five minutes in the opposite direction.  And neither of us could change jobs without taking a significant hit in our paychecks, so that's out.  So, we can't bike to work.  That doesn't mean that I think what MMM is saying about biking is ridiculous.  It means that what he says about biking is worth using as a way to look at my life and think about when I do use my car in ways that are ridiculous.  And I do; we all do.  Being resistant to this idea to the point of mockery is a symptom of that. 

Chris22

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2015, 01:57:58 PM »
The point is, read the post in the OP, and then read the quotes I gathered (at a glance, by the way) from MMM's post, and tell me which is more derisive and ridiculing.  I get what MMM is trying to do, and that's fine, but the point is, there's A LOT of criticism directed at others from MMM, so why should he be immunce from some directed at him?  You want to call people out as assholes, lazy, "sheeple", etc, don't be surprised when some come back at you.  Personally, I like a little fire in the arguments from both sides, so neither post offends me, but the people calling the commentator "hurtful" while conceivably supporting MMM's posts are being silly.

TRBeck

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2015, 02:00:38 PM »
Same rules can apply to your typical yuppy bike riders

I don't know what this even means. But your astonishing command of stereotyping comes through just fine all the same.

surfhb

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2015, 05:42:09 PM »
Here's a gem from Nick Yioves

" I'm so glad everyone is ripping this nonsense to shreds. The most annoying is his blog forum and all the losers that aspire to mimic this. I am too young to experience the '60s but it reminds of films and stories from the 1960's of hippy communes and the one guru that everyone blindly follows. Many really adopted this hippy ideology even in their later lives and were disappointed when many of their friends started showing up in luxury European cars to reunions. ha!


This is just cool kids talk for I didn't like working at my job any more so I don't spend any money on anything since I don't have a job any more.The Federal poverty level for family of 3 is just under $20,000 and this guy is vacationing in Hawaii and has "fancy" stuff on $25,000??"

swick

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2015, 06:19:08 PM »
Here's a gem from Nick Yioves

" I'm so glad everyone is ripping this nonsense to shreds. The most annoying is his blog forum and all the losers that aspire to mimic this. I am too young to experience the '60s but it reminds of films and stories from the 1960's of hippy communes and the one guru that everyone blindly follows. Many really adopted this hippy ideology even in their later lives and were disappointed when many of their friends started showing up in luxury European cars to reunions. ha!


This is just cool kids talk for I didn't like working at my job any more so I don't spend any money on anything since I don't have a job any more.The Federal poverty level for family of 3 is just under $20,000 and this guy is vacationing in Hawaii and has "fancy" stuff on $25,000??"

Mod Note: This guy is Mr_Clean_Shaven and most recently Stick_man - who we have banned for his trolling, antagonizing  and otherwise jerky behaviour. He obviously has an axe to grind.

Kris

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2015, 06:21:21 PM »
Here's a gem from Nick Yioves

" I'm so glad everyone is ripping this nonsense to shreds. The most annoying is his blog forum and all the losers that aspire to mimic this. I am too young to experience the '60s but it reminds of films and stories from the 1960's of hippy communes and the one guru that everyone blindly follows. Many really adopted this hippy ideology even in their later lives and were disappointed when many of their friends started showing up in luxury European cars to reunions. ha!


This is just cool kids talk for I didn't like working at my job any more so I don't spend any money on anything since I don't have a job any more.The Federal poverty level for family of 3 is just under $20,000 and this guy is vacationing in Hawaii and has "fancy" stuff on $25,000??"

Mod Note: This guy is Mr_Clean_Shaven and most recently Stick_man - who we have banned for his trolling, antagonizing  and otherwise jerky behaviour. He obviously has an axe to grind.


Not surprised. I predicted Stick_man was a troll with a previous account, but refrained from posting that to see what would happen.

sheepstache

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2015, 06:36:28 PM »
The point is, read the post in the OP, and then read the quotes I gathered (at a glance, by the way) from MMM's post, and tell me which is more derisive and ridiculing.  I get what MMM is trying to do, and that's fine, but the point is, there's A LOT of criticism directed at others from MMM, so why should he be immunce from some directed at him?  You want to call people out as assholes, lazy, "sheeple", etc, don't be surprised when some come back at you.  Personally, I like a little fire in the arguments from both sides, so neither post offends me, but the people calling the commentator "hurtful" while conceivably supporting MMM's posts are being silly.

The difference is MMM is trying to be funny. You might not find it funny, but unless your reading comprehension is severely damaged, you can see that he's going for a gimmicky persona voice. The commenter appears to be genuine, or at least if he's trying to set up his own snarky persona, is not doing so in a medium (single stand-alone comment) that lends itself to that.

surfhb

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2015, 08:10:45 PM »
Another Doozy....the last sentence made me laugh:

"I would like to be more gracious and instead of "lazy loser"; maybe he is a misguided idealist thinking he is doing the right thing.  Personally, I feel life is short and while we don't have to live over the top, we can enjoy some of the smaller joys like a vacation other than at the mall, or a steak instead of hamburger.  Hard to do that when you're living on $25,000 and having to ride you bike all the time.  Wonder how he gets his wife, and kid to the mall on his bike?"

regulator

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Re: Hurtful Comments
« Reply #49 on: June 15, 2015, 08:38:11 PM »
I was curious enough to go look at the marketwatch site to find the article.  Marketwatch itself reeks of clueless retail investors drowning in their own greed and fear.  Ick.