Author Topic: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege  (Read 21070 times)

LouLou

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #50 on: May 17, 2016, 09:31:33 PM »
Ketchup, I think you've hit on the most important thing with the long-term vs short-term planning. The wherewithal to make decisions based on what's best over the long term is the biggest change I see in my own life as I've come out of that sort of poverty.


This is by far the biggest change I've noticed in myself as I have come out of poverty.  I (like everyone else on this forum) think about my spending in terms of my long terms goals and my overall values now.  Growing up, we were so poor the goal was just making it to tomorrow.  Surviving.  It was a major shift when realized that spending could be about more than just this month.  It could be about all those other months that come later. 

When you live in poverty and only know other people in poverty, it's difficult to make that mental shift happen.  I never saw anyone retire when I was a poor kid.  The idea of saving up so much money that you could stop working altogether was entirely foreign.  People who didn't work were disabled / on social security.  I also didn't know that people negotiated how much they would be paid before they accepted a job.  Seriously, I learned that from the internet when I was an adult.  I told a relative about it and she literally didn't believe me!

Anyway, I understand the stupid decisions that people make when they are poor because I know the thinking patterns that happen when you assume that you will always be poor no matter what.  When you think in terms of monthly payments instead of overall cost.  When you don't know how compounding interest works.  (Something else I learned from the internet as adult).

The mental shift happened for me because I was a scholarship student at private school for wealthy people in middle school and high school, which transported me to an entirely different universe.  Casual conversations at my friends' dinner tables contained more financial knowledge than all financial knowledge of everyone in the neighborhood I lived in.  For example, you can "invest" money and it slowly becomes more money over time!  Paying cash upfront is often cheaper than financing!  MIND BLOWN PEOPLE.

big_slacker

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #51 on: May 17, 2016, 10:00:02 PM »
1000% this! When I was growing up it was all extremely short term. It wasn't till I started high school that I got exposed a little bit through friends to what regular middle class living was like. Till then I knew about this stuff like you know about Africa from watching a documentary. I remember being in a personal finance class and the teacher was very much trying to pound into our heads the power of compound interest, saving while young and not going into debt. I was a junior in high school and literally just had lunch money or any extra cash I got from selling some ill gotten goods. He might as well have been speaking Chinese. Such a missed opportunity.

I didn't get immersed in regular middle class life till I finished high school and started working to pay for college. I met some friends at work and we ended up hanging out a lot at their house in a regular neighborhood. We ended up moving to a ski resort town together and it took me the better part of a decade for it to fully sink in that this was what life should be like, it was ok for me to be living it oh and by the way you just turned 30 and maybe should think about a career. BTW-Unless you want to work till 80 better start saving, lol!

I don't think it's really enough to just talk at poor folks about saving, it really takes experiencing normal, some mentoring and concrete plans to get from there to here. Once it clicks you're off and running, but it takes some work to get it to click. You're overcoming a lifetime of programming.

Ketchup, I think you've hit on the most important thing with the long-term vs short-term planning. The wherewithal to make decisions based on what's best over the long term is the biggest change I see in my own life as I've come out of that sort of poverty.


This is by far the biggest change I've noticed in myself as I have come out of poverty.  I (like everyone else on this forum) think about my spending in terms of my long terms goals and my overall values now.  Growing up, we were so poor the goal was just making it to tomorrow.  Surviving.  It was a major shift when realized that spending could be about more than just this month.  It could be about all those other months that come later. 

When you live in poverty and only know other people in poverty, it's difficult to make that mental shift happen.  I never saw anyone retire when I was a poor kid.  The idea of saving up so much money that you could stop working altogether was entirely foreign.  People who didn't work were disabled / on social security.  I also didn't know that people negotiated how much they would be paid before they accepted a job.  Seriously, I learned that from the internet when I was an adult.  I told a relative about it and she literally didn't believe me!

Anyway, I understand the stupid decisions that people make when they are poor because I know the thinking patterns that happen when you assume that you will always be poor no matter what.  When you think in terms of monthly payments instead of overall cost.  When you don't know how compounding interest works.  (Something else I learned from the internet as adult).

The mental shift happened for me because I was a scholarship student at private school for wealthy people in middle school and high school, which transported me to an entirely different universe.  Casual conversations at my friends' dinner tables contained more financial knowledge than all financial knowledge of everyone in the neighborhood I lived in.  For example, you can "invest" money and it slowly becomes more money over time!  Paying cash upfront is often cheaper than financing!  MIND BLOWN PEOPLE.

davisgang90

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #52 on: May 18, 2016, 07:18:07 AM »
Keeping firmly in mind that anecdote is not the singular of data, I shop at a Costco down the street.  In the Northern Virginia area outside DC where I live, there is an amalgam of upscale single family houses and lower income apartments and townhomes.

There are many folks of Hispanic heritage in the area. 

I see plenty of fairly well-off folks shopping (like me) but I also see lots of groups of these less afluent folks pooling their money and buying in bulk, paying with cash.

Glad to see they have cracked the code on how to save.

tarheeldan

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #53 on: May 18, 2016, 07:44:28 AM »
This came across my feed this morning and fits right in with the topic. A couple of them made me cry.

http://thefinancialdiet.com/15-people-on-the-things-they-bought-while-poor-that-most-people-never-think-about/

KarefulKactus15

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #54 on: May 18, 2016, 07:57:47 AM »
Heres a tearjerker!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/linda-tirado/why-poor-peoples-bad-decisions-make-perfect-sense_b_4326233.html

I think the primary goal was to get lots of clicks, but the article gets the job done...

JoRocka

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2016, 09:42:39 AM »
It can be toxic.  Draining.  People making bad decisions all around you, and trapping themselves into even worse situations.  Even if you're smart, you can get dragged into all that.  27% interest car loan because of shitty credit, no savings, and needing a car (not to mention no education on the topic).  $500/month electricity bill because your air conditioner is from the 1980s and you live in Phoenix with 100-110F days for the entire summer.  Oh, and many of them spending hundreds a month on cigarettes and alcohol because that environment breeds addicts (not to mention the harder stuff).  Those things alone can force someone scraping by on minimum wage to have very few options if something else goes wrong, which at its best leads to bad choices and at its worst leads to crime.  Her sisters came from the same place and situation, and one has all kinds of drug problems from self-medicating mental problems, and the other has pretty debilitating social anxiety.

Yes, some people are poor because they're dumb.  Others are born into it, and clawing out isn't easy even if you know what you're doing.  It also causes or aggravates all kinds of mental problems, and they're the least equipped to handle that.

There is a lot of truth dropped right here.

I wasn't on the streets poor- but I was so poor I was struggling to pay my 750$  rent- much less feed myself- my horse- my cat and my rent were paid for- and I ate black beans and rice.  I have a good engineering education- I KNEW when I was at the store- the price per pound point of whatever I was buying was better for the larger bag. But I simply didn't have the money. Golden shackles of construction and the odd work hours made finding a more consistent part time job practically impossible.

Add on top of that- not making money and slowly growing further into debt let to random chaotic CC splurgers that led to horrible guilt and depression.

Being poor sucks. and I wasn't even really "that poor" but it 100% fucks with your head- and buying in bulk- definitely isn't an option when you can barely feed yourself.  I certainly KNEW it was a better deal- but I couldn't/wouldn't take the hit to take advantage of it most of the time.


I'd be interested to know the wealth vs hrs worked chart- are those hours worked specifically at ONE job- or "all jobs" because we all know people will work multiple jobs- and I bet you they aren't all accounted for on that chart.

MsPeacock

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #56 on: May 18, 2016, 08:22:08 PM »
I think a number of people on this thread do not really understand the challenges of the genuinely poor.  In fact it's clear that they don't.  And I suspect that they don't want to.

+1

And many who don't understand that an anecdote isn't a research study with a large data set.

Cpa Cat

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2016, 09:05:47 PM »
At my poorest, I had no car and no bike (it had been stolen and I couldn't afford to replace it). Public transportation was nearly non existent.

I walked 30 minutes each way to the grocery store, and whatever I bought had to fit in my backpack or be carried on either arm.

Almost every grocery store decision I made was made according to: 1) Do I know how to prepare it? 2) Can I transport it home?

Bulk toilet paper definitely failed the transport test. Cab fare was reserved for cat litter. I'd walk to the pet store and buy five giant bags of cat litter at once, then call a cab to take me home with it, then haul it up stairs to my apartment one at a time.

At home, I didn't have a freezer. The fridge in my rental was older than I was - it had an icebox instead of a real freezer. So there was no bulk storage of perishable food.

I ate Alphagetti for lunch every single day. When Alphagetti was on sale, that was a big win. I'd make a special trip to the store just for that. I knew exactly how many cans of Alphagetti I could carry if I didn't buy anything else. I had to be careful though - if I broke my backpack straps on the way home, I was screwed.

And for all that - I wasn't really even POOR. Not poverty poor. I was just single and a student. But I had no kids, no medical bills. I lived in Canada, so insurance wasn't something I worried about. But you know what? It's not easy to get 50 cans of Alphagetti home on your back. Bulk is easy when you have a car trunk to sling everything into.

prognastat

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #58 on: May 19, 2016, 06:54:59 AM »
Saving $1.50 on toilet paper isn't going to determine household income. It is all about poor education, no job prospects, and bad life decisions....sometimes these are by no fault of their own, but other times they are.
Of course it's about poor education.  Sure, everyone can't manage college -- a whole lot of people genuinely aren't smart enough to make it through, and if everyone did have a college degree we wouldn't have enough jobs to go around. 

Where we really fall short in education is in failing to funnel kids into our trades classes -- and we have excellent classes in our high schools that'll prepare kids for good, solid blue collar jobs, but instead we've decided that everyone should have a college prep high school education, even if it's watered down.  Sooo many of my high school students could do well in trades classes, but they see them as "beneath them" -- they're going to be lawyers, nurses, business professionals in spite of their substandard GPAs and lack of interest in education.

I don't quite understand the american model used for this. I grew up in the Netherlands and once you get to high school there are multiple tracks depending on your performance that really put you on track for either university, college or trade schools. Here though it seems everyone is still left in the same class to get the exact same education and grading through high school. It seems the former is geared far more to guide people to the job that will work for them.

Also the chart provided about hours worked doesn't really show how poorer people often work multiple jobs and/or split shifts meaning much more time is spent traveling between jobs which costs much more time and also money.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 06:58:53 AM by prognastat »

winkeyman

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #59 on: May 19, 2016, 12:09:09 PM »
I think a number of people on this thread do not really understand the challenges of the genuinely poor.  In fact it's clear that they don't.  And I suspect that they don't want to.

+1

And many who don't understand that an anecdote isn't a research study with a large data set.

Meh.

Just because I disagree doesn't mean I don't understand.

And you are right, ONE anecdote doesn't trump a research study with a large data set. But what if I have 20 anecdotes? 100? 1000?

"The data" says that 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 women are sexually assaulted during college.

That is obviously and blatantly wrong. Am I doomed to just start parroting that line because I am not able to fund a research study to refute it?

former player

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #60 on: May 19, 2016, 12:32:40 PM »
"The data" says that 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 women are sexually assaulted during college.

That is obviously and blatantly wrong. Am I doomed to just start parroting that line because I am not able to fund a research study to refute it?
Only someone who is completely without a clue could make the bolded statement.  I'm willing to assume it was made by a man, too.

No-one is going to make anyone "parrot" anything.  You don't even have to believe the data.  But I know what I think of you, and that's enough of a statement for me.

No Name Guy

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #61 on: May 19, 2016, 11:44:01 PM »
Quote
Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege

Privilege:  "a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people."

This language about "privilege" is the normalization of disfunction. 
I'm sorry, but not abusing booze or drugs, or not smoking is normal and available to all.  Doing those things is abnormal.
Thinking past the here and now is normal and available to all, thinking only of today is abnormal.
Paying attention in school is normal and available to all.  Fucking off and denigrating those that actually try in school as "nerds", "Oreo's", "Apples" or any other derogatory slur, is abnormal.
Cooking food from inexpensive and wholesome ingredients is normal and available to all (oh, and so called food deserts are a myth created out of whole cloth by people with fucked up agendas).  Only eating processed crap is abnormal.

This attempt to shift the language is destructive and self defeating to those with the abnormality.  Their condition is "normal" and those that aren't dis-functional are abnormal.  It relieves them of any responsibility to improve their own lot in life and sows hatred at those without disfunction.

It attempts to turn admirable behavior (thrift, hard work, self betterment, not being a complete fuck up) into somehow having taken from someone else - see the definition of "privilege" - a special right.....  No, buying rice and dry beans and an onion in the more economical manner instead of shoveling big macs in my face isn't some special right.  Anyone can do it.

When there is a law passed and enforced at the point of a bayonet that says only certain people can buy TP in a 12 pack instead of by single rolls, or that only rich people can buy 5 pound sacks of rice while the poor are required to eat at Burger King or are only allowed to buy 8 ounce packages, THEN I'll agree there is "privilege".  Until then, sorry, but the fact is, BY DEFINITION, there is no privilege of rich people buying in bulk - so STFU.


former player

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #62 on: May 20, 2016, 02:02:15 AM »
If you are going to turn bulk rice, beans and raw onion into a meal, the minimum you need is-

money to spare to buy in bulk, and the means to transport the bulk home
access to safe storage for your rice, beans and onion (safe from other people and from vermin)
cooking oil and spices
access to cooking facilities (a hob, a clean supply of water)
reliable fuel supply for the cooking facilities (you go hungry if the gas or electricity is off, which may be out of your control)
a cooking pan and spoon
basic knowledge of how to cook
time and energy
crockery and cutlery, a place to store them and a way to wash them
the ability and desire to live on plain rice and beans for most or all your meals, potentially for the rest of your life

All in all, cooking rice and beans takes a considerable level of resources.

Nickyd£g

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #63 on: May 20, 2016, 05:58:10 AM »
If you are going to turn bulk rice, beans and raw onion into a meal, the minimum you need is-

money to spare to buy in bulk, and the means to transport the bulk home
access to safe storage for your rice, beans and onion (safe from other people and from vermin)
cooking oil and spices
access to cooking facilities (a hob, a clean supply of water)
reliable fuel supply for the cooking facilities (you go hungry if the gas or electricity is off, which may be out of your control)
a cooking pan and spoon
basic knowledge of how to cook
time and energy

This. So this!  If you are poor, you don't have many of these things, so yes, buying in bulk is not something that poor people do.  And I'm pretty sure many of them know that it would be more cost effective if they could but they CAN'T.  It bewilders me that many on here don't seem to grasp that.
crockery and cutlery, a place to store them and a way to wash them
the ability and desire to live on plain rice and beans for most or all your meals, potentially for the rest of your life

All in all, cooking rice and beans takes a considerable level of resources.

winkeyman

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #64 on: May 20, 2016, 06:10:46 AM »
If you are going to turn bulk rice, beans and raw onion into a meal, the minimum you need is-

money to spare to buy in bulk, and the means to transport the bulk home
access to safe storage for your rice, beans and onion (safe from other people and from vermin)
cooking oil and spices
access to cooking facilities (a hob, a clean supply of water)
reliable fuel supply for the cooking facilities (you go hungry if the gas or electricity is off, which may be out of your control)
a cooking pan and spoon
basic knowledge of how to cook
time and energy
crockery and cutlery, a place to store them and a way to wash them
the ability and desire to live on plain rice and beans for most or all your meals, potentially for the rest of your life

All in all, cooking rice and beans takes a considerable level of resources.

The things you list would certainly make sense for someone living in the slums of Mumbai.

Those are not challenges that a significant number of non-homeless people face in America or similar nations.

ender

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #65 on: May 20, 2016, 07:38:46 AM »
Quote
i don't think the rejection of frugality is necessarily a choice.

When I say frugality, I don't mean early retirement or anything like that.

I mean, buying a 30-roll pack of toilet paper that costs less per roll than a 10-roll pack.

No one needs any external knowledge to know that one is a better deal than the other. The only reason you wouldn't buy the better deal is if you couldn't afford the 30-roll pack. However, if anyone claims that they can't afford it, while also buying cigarettes or lottery tickets, then we know they are liars.

A lot of people are really bad at math. Or never had anyone remotely teach them basic financial wisdom (cue chorus if personal anecdotes disagreeing).

Billions get spent every year on advertising in order to get people to make non optimal financial decisions.

The concept of hunting for deals requires a lot more intellect and experience than most who do it intuitively realize. That's hard to teach, particularly if your entire life has taught you otherwise.

MrMoogle

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #66 on: May 20, 2016, 08:15:29 AM »
The more relevant question for the terminally poor is:

Even if it's their fault for making stupid decisions (aka, being human), how do we fix it? Or do we shrug and claim that there will always be poor so fuck 'em?
The first question should be, "should we to try to fix it?"  And if we choose not to, it doesn't automatically mean "fuck 'em."  This statement seems to say, "if you disagree with fixing it, then you're not compassionate about the poor" which is not true.

In reality, there are many programs already that have tried to fix it, and none have.  And arguably, some could have made it worse, but it's hard to say, since many of these programs have started during a time when the world was changing rapidly due to technology.

If we (government we) prevent people from making stupid decisions, then we are taking away their freedom to do so, and probably taking away their humanity. 

If we (mustachian we) want to make a difference with individual poor communities, we can help people be more logical in their purchases.  There are plenty of mustachians who have come from poor communities who can say, "I escaped this lifestyle, and this is how I did it."  And some will listen, and some will choose not to.

"Perfect is the enemy of good."  We can never be perfect, and we can never fix it for everyone, but maybe we can fix it for some who are willing to listen.

Big Boots Buddha

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #67 on: May 24, 2016, 09:30:04 AM »
As a completely broke, stoner college student working for 8 dollars an hour I figured out bulk was better. Its not a rich person's privilege. Its a willpower issue.

I even got a Costco membership once I rode my bike there and looked at the deals. No pad of paper necessary, they have the cost per unit right there at the store.

Yes, its hard. For a month work extra, don't buy anything not that is non-essential, buy big tubs of peanut butter at Costco, tuna fish, cheap bread, rich, cheese.

I lived mostly on cheese sandwiches and peanut butter sandwiches. Used George Forman grill to heat them up. Lots of Oatmeal, rice, pancakes, etc.

Poor people can benefit too. Its just harder, obviously.

slappy

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #68 on: May 24, 2016, 09:34:52 AM »

[/quote]

The things you list would certainly make sense for someone living in the slums of Mumbai.

Those are not challenges that a significant number of non-homeless people face in America or similar nations.
[/quote]

These challenges exist more than you would believe in poor households in America. I worked with under privileged children on a volunteer basis. One girl told me that she won't eat raisins anymore. The reason is that her family's electricity had been shut off. They got food from the food bank (mac and cheese, pasta, canned veggies, etc) but had no means to cook it. So for several days straight, all she could eat was raisins.  She made do at the time, but now she never wants to eat raisins again.

freeazabird

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #69 on: May 24, 2016, 10:29:36 AM »
Zik: I am assuming you can walk to cheaper stores or ride public transportation. Many towns in the US have terrible mass transit. There have been many studies done on "food deserts in the US." Read some of them to discover the issues.  I used to be  a social worker and they are real and huge for many people.  Many poor people are unable to find f.t. jobs so work 2 or 3 p.t. ones which leaves a lot less time for shopping, cooking, etc especially when you don't have a car.

I think the data points in the opposite direction, as your income increases so do hours worked. The working rich have less time for shopping, cooking, etc than the poor. You might have a point in regards to transportation, though you'd need to be really poor to not have at least a beater vehicle in the US.



I don't know if this was mentioned elsewhere in the thread, so apologies if it was. Even though high earning people work more hours at their job, they use a part of there money earned to buy conveniences poorer people cannot afford. They can more easily outsource home maintenance, yard maintenance, childcare, house cleaning, healthy meal making etc. In addition, they can afford to travel more efficiently, don't have to worry about the price of gas, and have more flexible working hours to get to the store.

I have been on both sides of the coin. As a person with very low income I used to struggle in my free time to get toilet paper sales. I could not afford a car and would have to do a long walk and take a long bus ride. My travel time roundtrip was 3.5 hours. I could only buy as much as I could hold on the bus. And these trips were only possible when I could fit it in my shifting schedule while working 3 jobs. As a person wi tons more money now, it is easy to bulk shop. I hope in my car, parked in my nice neighborhood, that is a 15 min drive from the bulk store and load up.

MoneyCat

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #70 on: May 24, 2016, 10:37:34 AM »
As a former poor person, I can attest to the fact that it's expensive to be poor. When you are poor, any small emergency quickly snowballs into a massive catastrophe that wipes out your bank accounts and destroys your credit. So people end up paying a premium for toilet paper or car insurance (especially when you are are stuck living in an area with high rates of car damage/theft) or food or clothing, etc. The key for me was being willing to temporarily live like someone who had only a few dollars a day so I could use the other extra few dollars to invest for the future -- i.e. paying off high interest credit card debt, saving up an emergency fund, saving for a security deposit for a better apartment, saving for a more reliable car or a bicycle, saving up to buy in bulk to save money in the long run, etc. When you are under constant heavy stress from being poor, thinking in longer terms is extremely difficult. People who have never lived under those circumstances have a hard time understanding.

Chris22

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #71 on: May 24, 2016, 10:47:28 AM »
When there is a law passed and enforced at the point of a bayonet that says only certain people can buy TP in a 12 pack instead of by single rolls, or that only rich people can buy 5 pound sacks of rice while the poor are required to eat at Burger King or are only allowed to buy 8 ounce packages, THEN I'll agree there is "privilege".  Until then, sorry, but the fact is, BY DEFINITION, there is no privilege of rich people buying in bulk - so STFU.

If your grocery budget for the week is $40, and that's all you have, is it "better" to buy a $2 single roll or an $18 18-pack? 

I disagree with the overuse of the word "privilege" but I do think you're overestimating the ability of people to "invest" in something for the future when money is extremely tight.  It does take a certain (albeit low) level of affluence in order to buy more than you need right now for a lower per-unit but higher single-time price. 

goatmom

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #72 on: May 24, 2016, 01:06:52 PM »
I grew up poor.  Part of the problem was way too many children on too little salary.  No alcohol or cigarettes.  No cable. No cell phones.  But no money left at the end of the week to save.  I remember shopping with my mother and having to put food items back because we didn't have enough money. I don't know how they would have ever saved enough to buy in bulk.  Also, there was always the fear that anything purchased in bulk would be eaten or consumed in bulk. We consumed it almost as fast as it was brought into the house.  I remember my mother putting food under her bed so we wouldn't eat it while she was asleep.  We were smart and got jobs working at restaurants.  Free food!  And often the owners sent the leftovers home to my family at the end of the night. But, we were lucky because despite being poor and having crappy schools we had parents that loved us.  And most of us had drive to do better and escape. Sometimes these situations are very complicated.

starguru

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #73 on: May 24, 2016, 02:35:45 PM »
Another have/have nots thread devolved into survival of the fittest vs its never my fault world views.  Sigh. 

Would be so much better if we could all just realize that on the one hand, in a society we should all move together, and that some people are always gonna need some help, and on the other hand, people can and do game the system, some make suboptimal choices, and not every failing has an excuse. 

Bucksandreds

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #74 on: May 25, 2016, 08:20:15 AM »
Another have/have nots thread devolved into survival of the fittest vs its never my fault world views.  Sigh. 

Would be so much better if we could all just realize that on the one hand, in a society we should all move together, and that some people are always gonna need some help, and on the other hand, people can and do game the system, some make suboptimal choices, and not every failing has an excuse.

Like most things, the truth is in the middle and you do a good job of explaining this.  That is why I don't support Ted Cruz or Bernie Sanders types. We should not give more to the rich and we should not make college free for liberal arts majors. We should have affordable college and healthcare and we should make sure that all who are willing to work are out of poverty. Federal grants that lower tuition for students at school who reignin costs would help, Medicare for all paid for by expanding payroll taxes and vastly expanding the eitc with a healthy tax raise (in the 5% range or so) on incomes and capital gains over a certain threshold would go a long way in rebuilding our middle class without creating perverse incentives that benefit the rich or the lazy.

Arktinkerer

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #75 on: May 25, 2016, 10:18:03 AM »

I don't quite understand the american model used for this. I grew up in the Netherlands and once you get to high school there are multiple tracks depending on your performance that really put you on track for either university, college or trade schools. Here though it seems everyone is still left in the same class to get the exact same education and grading through high school. It seems the former is geared far more to guide people to the job that will work for them.

Also the chart provided about hours worked doesn't really show how poorer people often work multiple jobs and/or split shifts meaning much more time is spent traveling between jobs which costs much more time and also money.

The right to make one's own path in life is part of the American Dream, psyche, ethos, whatever you want to call it.  Your description of the Netherlands' model has me wondering how rigid the structure is.  What happens if you are a high performer and want to work the trades--say as a carpenter?  What if you are mediocre and want to go to university?

prognastat

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #76 on: May 25, 2016, 10:56:28 AM »

I don't quite understand the american model used for this. I grew up in the Netherlands and once you get to high school there are multiple tracks depending on your performance that really put you on track for either university, college or trade schools. Here though it seems everyone is still left in the same class to get the exact same education and grading through high school. It seems the former is geared far more to guide people to the job that will work for them.

Also the chart provided about hours worked doesn't really show how poorer people often work multiple jobs and/or split shifts meaning much more time is spent traveling between jobs which costs much more time and also money.

The right to make one's own path in life is part of the American Dream, psyche, ethos, whatever you want to call it.  Your description of the Netherlands' model has me wondering how rigid the structure is.  What happens if you are a high performer and want to work the trades--say as a carpenter?  What if you are mediocre and want to go to university?

If you work hard and show you are capable of achieving at the higher levels you can move up. You can always apply for a lower level. You can go for any level you've gotten the grades to achieve. If you don't get the grades though you don't get to go to a level of education above your ability and/or level of effort.

There are also tracks to get to university from lower levels, but you'll have to take advanced classes after finishing the lower level to prove you are capable of attending the higher levels. Also how is that any different than not getting in to college since you didn't get high enough grades to get in college? You still won't get in.

The main difference is that the education in the dutch situation is geared towards the actual skill level of the people attending it and is geared towards a career the person is able to complete.

starguru

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #77 on: May 25, 2016, 12:02:39 PM »
Another have/have nots thread devolved into survival of the fittest vs its never my fault world views.  Sigh. 

Would be so much better if we could all just realize that on the one hand, in a society we should all move together, and that some people are always gonna need some help, and on the other hand, people can and do game the system, some make suboptimal choices, and not every failing has an excuse.

Like most things, the truth is in the middle and you do a good job of explaining this.  That is why I don't support Ted Cruz or Bernie Sanders types. We should not give more to the rich and we should not make college free for liberal arts majors. We should have affordable college and healthcare and we should make sure that all who are willing to work are out of poverty. Federal grants that lower tuition for students at school who reignin costs would help, Medicare for all paid for by expanding payroll taxes and vastly expanding the eitc with a healthy tax raise (in the 5% range or so) on incomes and capital gains over a certain threshold would go a long way in rebuilding our middle class without creating perverse incentives that benefit the rich or the lazy.

You recognize that "the truth is in middle" but then go an advocate for a very liberal agenda.   Let' see:

*  not give more to the rich
*  affordable college and healthcare
*  medicare for all paid for by expanding taxes
*  increase taxes

The only thing that could be considered a concession to non-liberals is

*  not make college free for liberal arts majors

So your narrative is basically the Sander's campaign message. 

To truly make progress on these issues we are going to need new ideas.  New ideas that offer something to both sides.  And a willingness to compromise.

Gin1984

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #78 on: May 25, 2016, 12:28:13 PM »
Another have/have nots thread devolved into survival of the fittest vs its never my fault world views.  Sigh. 

Would be so much better if we could all just realize that on the one hand, in a society we should all move together, and that some people are always gonna need some help, and on the other hand, people can and do game the system, some make suboptimal choices, and not every failing has an excuse.

Like most things, the truth is in the middle and you do a good job of explaining this.  That is why I don't support Ted Cruz or Bernie Sanders types. We should not give more to the rich and we should not make college free for liberal arts majors. We should have affordable college and healthcare and we should make sure that all who are willing to work are out of poverty. Federal grants that lower tuition for students at school who reignin costs would help, Medicare for all paid for by expanding payroll taxes and vastly expanding the eitc with a healthy tax raise (in the 5% range or so) on incomes and capital gains over a certain threshold would go a long way in rebuilding our middle class without creating perverse incentives that benefit the rich or the lazy.

You recognize that "the truth is in middle" but then go an advocate for a very liberal agenda.   Let' see:

*  not give more to the rich
*  affordable college and healthcare
*  medicare for all paid for by expanding taxes
*  increase taxes

The only thing that could be considered a concession to non-liberals is

*  not make college free for liberal arts majors

So your narrative is basically the Sander's campaign message

To truly make progress on these issues we are going to need new ideas.  New ideas that offer something to both sides.  And a willingness to compromise.
Actually I think it is closer to Clinton.  Sander's would flip over the college issue and he is not known to compromise. 

Chris22

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #79 on: May 25, 2016, 12:38:28 PM »

I don't quite understand the american model used for this. I grew up in the Netherlands and once you get to high school there are multiple tracks depending on your performance that really put you on track for either university, college or trade schools. Here though it seems everyone is still left in the same class to get the exact same education and grading through high school. It seems the former is geared far more to guide people to the job that will work for them.

Also the chart provided about hours worked doesn't really show how poorer people often work multiple jobs and/or split shifts meaning much more time is spent traveling between jobs which costs much more time and also money.

The right to make one's own path in life is part of the American Dream, psyche, ethos, whatever you want to call it.  Your description of the Netherlands' model has me wondering how rigid the structure is.  What happens if you are a high performer and want to work the trades--say as a carpenter?  What if you are mediocre and want to go to university?

If you work hard and show you are capable of achieving at the higher levels you can move up. You can always apply for a lower level. You can go for any level you've gotten the grades to achieve. If you don't get the grades though you don't get to go to a level of education above your ability and/or level of effort.

There are also tracks to get to university from lower levels, but you'll have to take advanced classes after finishing the lower level to prove you are capable of attending the higher levels. Also how is that any different than not getting in to college since you didn't get high enough grades to get in college? You still won't get in.

The main difference is that the education in the dutch situation is geared towards the actual skill level of the people attending it and is geared towards a career the person is able to complete.

I know plenty of people, mostly guys, who screwed around in high school and maybe even afterwards, who eventually got their head right, went to college later, and were quite successful.  It seems as though the Dutch system would send these people down a track they can't recover from, based solely on their performance at a very early stage in life. 

Bucksandreds

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #80 on: May 25, 2016, 12:50:20 PM »
Another have/have nots thread devolved into survival of the fittest vs its never my fault world views.  Sigh. 

Would be so much better if we could all just realize that on the one hand, in a society we should all move together, and that some people are always gonna need some help, and on the other hand, people can and do game the system, some make suboptimal choices, and not every failing has an excuse.

Like most things, the truth is in the middle and you do a good job of explaining this.  That is why I don't support Ted Cruz or Bernie Sanders types. We should not give more to the rich and we should not make college free for liberal arts majors. We should have affordable college and healthcare and we should make sure that all who are willing to work are out of poverty. Federal grants that lower tuition for students at school who reignin costs would help, Medicare for all paid for by expanding payroll taxes and vastly expanding the eitc with a healthy tax raise (in the 5% range or so) on incomes and capital gains over a certain threshold would go a long way in rebuilding our middle class without creating perverse incentives that benefit the rich or the lazy.

You recognize that "the truth is in middle" but then go an advocate for a very liberal agenda.   Let' see:

*  not give more to the rich
*  affordable college and healthcare
*  medicare for all paid for by expanding taxes
*  increase taxes

The only thing that could be considered a concession to non-liberals is

*  not make college free for liberal arts majors

So your narrative is basically the Sander's campaign message

To truly make progress on these issues we are going to need new ideas.  New ideas that offer something to both sides.  And a willingness to compromise.
Actually I think it is closer to Clinton.  Sander's would flip over the college issue and he is not known to compromise.

The right's ideas are so tainted that they think that what benefits 99% of the population is extremely liberal.  I don't think free college is a good idea because you have no skin in the game. I don't think giving more to those who won't work is a good idea because it encourages laziness. It's only the ultra right that would call someone extremely liberal who thinks everyone who's willing to participate in our society should be out of poverty,have health insurance and should be able to attend college without mortgaging their future. Those are massively centrist opinions but the right is so tainted that they think it's far left.  God save us all.

zephyr911

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #81 on: May 25, 2016, 01:01:22 PM »
Yep.
I think about this sometimes when I shop, and when I compare my habits to those of my poorest friend. Sometimes the stuff he does just drives me batty, but when I think about the actual constraints he tends to operate under, it seems less insane. Slightly, at least.

starguru

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #82 on: May 26, 2016, 06:44:20 AM »
Another have/have nots thread devolved into survival of the fittest vs its never my fault world views.  Sigh. 

Would be so much better if we could all just realize that on the one hand, in a society we should all move together, and that some people are always gonna need some help, and on the other hand, people can and do game the system, some make suboptimal choices, and not every failing has an excuse.

Like most things, the truth is in the middle and you do a good job of explaining this.  That is why I don't support Ted Cruz or Bernie Sanders types. We should not give more to the rich and we should not make college free for liberal arts majors. We should have affordable college and healthcare and we should make sure that all who are willing to work are out of poverty. Federal grants that lower tuition for students at school who reignin costs would help, Medicare for all paid for by expanding payroll taxes and vastly expanding the eitc with a healthy tax raise (in the 5% range or so) on incomes and capital gains over a certain threshold would go a long way in rebuilding our middle class without creating perverse incentives that benefit the rich or the lazy.

You recognize that "the truth is in middle" but then go an advocate for a very liberal agenda.   Let' see:

*  not give more to the rich
*  affordable college and healthcare
*  medicare for all paid for by expanding taxes
*  increase taxes

The only thing that could be considered a concession to non-liberals is

*  not make college free for liberal arts majors

So your narrative is basically the Sander's campaign message

To truly make progress on these issues we are going to need new ideas.  New ideas that offer something to both sides.  And a willingness to compromise.
Actually I think it is closer to Clinton.  Sander's would flip over the college issue and he is not known to compromise.

The right's ideas are so tainted that they think that what benefits 99% of the population is extremely liberal.  I don't think free college is a good idea because you have no skin in the game. I don't think giving more to those who won't work is a good idea because it encourages laziness.


I can't tell if  you mean that or it's sarcasm.

Quote
It's only the ultra right that would call someone extremely liberal who thinks everyone who's willing to participate in our society should be out of poverty,have health insurance and should be able to attend college without mortgaging their future. Those are massively centrist opinions but the right is so tainted that they think it's far left.  God save us all.

I think you are over generalizing.  You perceive that because they don't agree with the *solutions* of the left that they are against the *goals*.  In reality, both right and left share many (not all) goals.  Both want to increase prosperity, increase access to health care, increase access to college.  Just because they don't think raising taxes and giving people freebies is the solution doesn't mean they don't agree on the goals. 




Gin1984

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #83 on: May 26, 2016, 07:04:47 AM »
Another have/have nots thread devolved into survival of the fittest vs its never my fault world views.  Sigh. 

Would be so much better if we could all just realize that on the one hand, in a society we should all move together, and that some people are always gonna need some help, and on the other hand, people can and do game the system, some make suboptimal choices, and not every failing has an excuse.

Like most things, the truth is in the middle and you do a good job of explaining this.  That is why I don't support Ted Cruz or Bernie Sanders types. We should not give more to the rich and we should not make college free for liberal arts majors. We should have affordable college and healthcare and we should make sure that all who are willing to work are out of poverty. Federal grants that lower tuition for students at school who reignin costs would help, Medicare for all paid for by expanding payroll taxes and vastly expanding the eitc with a healthy tax raise (in the 5% range or so) on incomes and capital gains over a certain threshold would go a long way in rebuilding our middle class without creating perverse incentives that benefit the rich or the lazy.

You recognize that "the truth is in middle" but then go an advocate for a very liberal agenda.   Let' see:

*  not give more to the rich
*  affordable college and healthcare
*  medicare for all paid for by expanding taxes
*  increase taxes

The only thing that could be considered a concession to non-liberals is

*  not make college free for liberal arts majors

So your narrative is basically the Sander's campaign message

To truly make progress on these issues we are going to need new ideas.  New ideas that offer something to both sides.  And a willingness to compromise.
Actually I think it is closer to Clinton.  Sander's would flip over the college issue and he is not known to compromise.

The right's ideas are so tainted that they think that what benefits 99% of the population is extremely liberal.  I don't think free college is a good idea because you have no skin in the game. I don't think giving more to those who won't work is a good idea because it encourages laziness.


I can't tell if  you mean that or it's sarcasm.

Quote
It's only the ultra right that would call someone extremely liberal who thinks everyone who's willing to participate in our society should be out of poverty,have health insurance and should be able to attend college without mortgaging their future. Those are massively centrist opinions but the right is so tainted that they think it's far left.  God save us all.

I think you are over generalizing.  You perceive that because they don't agree with the *solutions* of the left that they are against the *goals*.  In reality, both right and left share many (not all) goals.  Both want to increase prosperity, increase access to health care, increase access to college.  Just because they don't think raising taxes and giving people freebies is the solution doesn't mean they don't agree on the goals.
The ACA was the GOP solution compared to single payer which is the liberal solution.  Once Obama went with it, it now is evil.  Please explain that.

MrMoogle

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #84 on: May 26, 2016, 07:12:31 AM »
Another have/have nots thread devolved into survival of the fittest vs its never my fault world views.  Sigh. 

Would be so much better if we could all just realize that on the one hand, in a society we should all move together, and that some people are always gonna need some help, and on the other hand, people can and do game the system, some make suboptimal choices, and not every failing has an excuse.

Like most things, the truth is in the middle and you do a good job of explaining this.  That is why I don't support Ted Cruz or Bernie Sanders types. We should not give more to the rich and we should not make college free for liberal arts majors. We should have affordable college and healthcare and we should make sure that all who are willing to work are out of poverty. Federal grants that lower tuition for students at school who reignin costs would help, Medicare for all paid for by expanding payroll taxes and vastly expanding the eitc with a healthy tax raise (in the 5% range or so) on incomes and capital gains over a certain threshold would go a long way in rebuilding our middle class without creating perverse incentives that benefit the rich or the lazy.

You recognize that "the truth is in middle" but then go an advocate for a very liberal agenda.   Let' see:

*  not give more to the rich
*  affordable college and healthcare
*  medicare for all paid for by expanding taxes
*  increase taxes

The only thing that could be considered a concession to non-liberals is

*  not make college free for liberal arts majors

So your narrative is basically the Sander's campaign message

To truly make progress on these issues we are going to need new ideas.  New ideas that offer something to both sides.  And a willingness to compromise.
Actually I think it is closer to Clinton.  Sander's would flip over the college issue and he is not known to compromise.

The right's ideas are so tainted that they think that what benefits 99% of the population is extremely liberal.  I don't think free college is a good idea because you have no skin in the game. I don't think giving more to those who won't work is a good idea because it encourages laziness.


I can't tell if  you mean that or it's sarcasm.

Quote
It's only the ultra right that would call someone extremely liberal who thinks everyone who's willing to participate in our society should be out of poverty,have health insurance and should be able to attend college without mortgaging their future. Those are massively centrist opinions but the right is so tainted that they think it's far left.  God save us all.

I think you are over generalizing.  You perceive that because they don't agree with the *solutions* of the left that they are against the *goals*.  In reality, both right and left share many (not all) goals.  Both want to increase prosperity, increase access to health care, increase access to college.  Just because they don't think raising taxes and giving people freebies is the solution doesn't mean they don't agree on the goals.
The ACA was the GOP solution compared to single payer which is the liberal solution.  Once Obama went with it, it now is evil.  Please explain that.
You are confusing politics with what is conservative vs liberal.  As a conservative, I was always against ACA.  Also, I'm not sure the GOP ever endorsed it, maybe a few members did, but that doesn't make it a "GOP solution."

I do believe we have many similar goals.

MustachianAccountant

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #85 on: May 26, 2016, 07:38:46 AM »

You recognize that "the truth is in middle" but then go an advocate for a very liberal agenda.   Let' see:

*  not give more to the rich
*  affordable college and healthcare
*  medicare for all paid for by expanding taxes
*  increase taxes

The only thing that could be considered a concession to non-liberals is

*  not make college free for liberal arts majors

So your narrative is basically the Sander's campaign message

To truly make progress on these issues we are going to need new ideas.  New ideas that offer something to both sides.  And a willingness to compromise.
Actually I think it is closer to Clinton.  Sanders would flip over the college issue and he is not known to compromise.

It is closer to Clinton. The right has gone so far right that it's pulling the left along with it. Now, what used to be the basic Democrat platform is seen as "way left crazy town" despite the fact that things like universal healthcare work in most of the developed world.
I'm neither Republican nor Democrat, and find myself on either side, depending upon the issue.
You don't have to agree with the conclusion, but the author of this article makes some good points worth thinking about:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tony-brasunas/there-is-a-moderate-republican-in-this-race_b_9704194.html

Chris22

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #86 on: May 26, 2016, 07:58:47 AM »
You don't have to agree with the conclusion, but the author of this article makes some good points worth thinking about:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tony-brasunas/there-is-a-moderate-republican-in-this-race_b_9704194.html

She's terrible on 2A, which is a big Republican/conservative issue, and she's also just a miserable, unlikeable, dishonest person. 

MrMoogle

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #87 on: May 26, 2016, 08:20:17 AM »
You don't have to agree with the conclusion, but the author of this article makes some good points worth thinking about:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tony-brasunas/there-is-a-moderate-republican-in-this-race_b_9704194.html

She's terrible on 2A, which is a big Republican/conservative issue, and she's also just a miserable, unlikeable, dishonest person. 
Every presidential election, there's always an article that says, "The Democrat candidate is really more Republican than the Republican candidate because...."  It's always total BS.  In reality, it's geared toward those in the middle who haven't decided.

Beliefs evolve over time, it is not surprising that the Republican party doesn't believe exactly what it believed 40 years ago, lots have changed.  And no, Hillary would not have been a candidate for the Republican party 40 years ago.  Her stance on the LGBT community would have prevented either party from voting for her.  But luckily, both parties have evolved over that time.

Chris22

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #88 on: May 26, 2016, 08:25:39 AM »
You don't have to agree with the conclusion, but the author of this article makes some good points worth thinking about:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tony-brasunas/there-is-a-moderate-republican-in-this-race_b_9704194.html

She's terrible on 2A, which is a big Republican/conservative issue, and she's also just a miserable, unlikeable, dishonest person. 
Every presidential election, there's always an article that says, "The Democrat candidate is really more Republican than the Republican candidate because...."  It's always total BS.  In reality, it's geared toward those in the middle who haven't decided.

Beliefs evolve over time, it is not surprising that the Republican party doesn't believe exactly what it believed 40 years ago, lots have changed.  And no, Hillary would not have been a candidate for the Republican party 40 years ago.  Her stance on the LGBT community would have prevented either party from voting for her.  But luckily, both parties have evolved over that time.

The whole gay marriage thing is stupid.  As a republican, I can't, for the life of me, understand how dictating who can marry whom is a plank in the party that purports to be for "small government".  That's a completely arbitrary restriction just to have a restriction, and those are the worst kind. 

OTOH, the democrats were kinda-sorta against gay marriage, and now falling all over themselves to say, no, we've been for it all along. 

Hillary: "I've always been for gay marriage"
TV host: "roll the clip"
Hillary from 10 years ago: "Marriage is between a man and a woman and that's sacred"
TV host: "really?"
Hillary from now: "that's just a mischaracterization and this is a right wing smear job and you can't understand that I've always been for it and also you hate me because I'm a woman!"

Sanders, to his credit, seems to have been consistent on this issue all along.  Unfortunately for him, I vote on economic, foreign policy, and 2A issues, not gay marriage, so he won't be getting mine ;)

zephyr911

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #89 on: May 26, 2016, 08:58:06 AM »
You don't have to agree with the conclusion, but the author of this article makes some good points worth thinking about:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tony-brasunas/there-is-a-moderate-republican-in-this-race_b_9704194.html

She's terrible on 2A, which is a big Republican/conservative issue, and she's also just a miserable, unlikeable, dishonest person. 
Every presidential election, there's always an article that says, "The Democrat candidate is really more Republican than the Republican candidate because...."  It's always total BS.  In reality, it's geared toward those in the middle who haven't decided.

Beliefs evolve over time, it is not surprising that the Republican party doesn't believe exactly what it believed 40 years ago, lots have changed.  And no, Hillary would not have been a candidate for the Republican party 40 years ago.  Her stance on the LGBT community would have prevented either party from voting for her.  But luckily, both parties have evolved over that time.
Topic drift somewhat, but regarding this miniature debate over Hillary being a moderate Republican, or however one chooses to phrase it:

Her stance on LGBT was pretty compatible with at least some Republican voters' views in the past, and arguably remains so today, as both have shifted left on that issue. Not coincidentally, I have noticed that many Republican friends are grudgingly planning to vote for her.

Chris22

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #90 on: May 26, 2016, 09:58:25 AM »
You don't have to agree with the conclusion, but the author of this article makes some good points worth thinking about:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tony-brasunas/there-is-a-moderate-republican-in-this-race_b_9704194.html

She's terrible on 2A, which is a big Republican/conservative issue, and she's also just a miserable, unlikeable, dishonest person. 
Every presidential election, there's always an article that says, "The Democrat candidate is really more Republican than the Republican candidate because...."  It's always total BS.  In reality, it's geared toward those in the middle who haven't decided.

Beliefs evolve over time, it is not surprising that the Republican party doesn't believe exactly what it believed 40 years ago, lots have changed.  And no, Hillary would not have been a candidate for the Republican party 40 years ago.  Her stance on the LGBT community would have prevented either party from voting for her.  But luckily, both parties have evolved over that time.
Topic drift somewhat, but regarding this miniature debate over Hillary being a moderate Republican, or however one chooses to phrase it:

Her stance on LGBT was pretty compatible with at least some Republican voters' views in the past, and arguably remains so today, as both have shifted left on that issue. Not coincidentally, I have noticed that many Republican friends are grudgingly planning to vote for her.

I honestly don't have a problem with her stance.  I have a huge problem with her blatant dishonesty, her pandering pretending that she was always for it when she demonstrably wasn't, and her lashing out at people who use videos of her exact words to prove her wrong and she pretends as though they're smearing her or it's a vast right wing conspiracy or whatever.  She's lying, pure and simple, AND she lashes out at those who show it rather than accept it.  She's complete scum.

MrMoogle

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #91 on: May 26, 2016, 10:08:03 AM »
You don't have to agree with the conclusion, but the author of this article makes some good points worth thinking about:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tony-brasunas/there-is-a-moderate-republican-in-this-race_b_9704194.html

She's terrible on 2A, which is a big Republican/conservative issue, and she's also just a miserable, unlikeable, dishonest person. 
Every presidential election, there's always an article that says, "The Democrat candidate is really more Republican than the Republican candidate because...."  It's always total BS.  In reality, it's geared toward those in the middle who haven't decided.

Beliefs evolve over time, it is not surprising that the Republican party doesn't believe exactly what it believed 40 years ago, lots have changed.  And no, Hillary would not have been a candidate for the Republican party 40 years ago.  Her stance on the LGBT community would have prevented either party from voting for her.  But luckily, both parties have evolved over that time.
Topic drift somewhat, but regarding this miniature debate over Hillary being a moderate Republican, or however one chooses to phrase it:

Her stance on LGBT was pretty compatible with at least some Republican voters' views in the past, and arguably remains so today, as both have shifted left on that issue. Not coincidentally, I have noticed that many Republican friends are grudgingly planning to vote for her.

I honestly don't have a problem with her stance.  I have a huge problem with her blatant dishonesty, her pandering pretending that she was always for it when she demonstrably wasn't, and her lashing out at people who use videos of her exact words to prove her wrong and she pretends as though they're smearing her or it's a vast right wing conspiracy or whatever.  She's lying, pure and simple, AND she lashes out at those who show it rather than accept it.  She's complete scum.
As a conservative, I am having troubles choosing between the two.  Honestly, I'll probably write in a name, so I'm not surprised some Republicans are going to vote for her.

Whether she's lying now or then is the question.  She could have been lying then for political reasons. 

How did we get here from buying in bulk?

Yaeger

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #92 on: May 26, 2016, 10:11:55 AM »
The whole gay marriage thing is stupid.  As a republican, I can't, for the life of me, understand how dictating who can marry whom is a plank in the party that purports to be for "small government".  That's a completely arbitrary restriction just to have a restriction, and those are the worst kind. 

I'm against gay marriage, although I'm against allowing the government to be involved in marriage, in anyone's intimate relationship, altogether. I think they went the wrong way by expanding access to those 'rights' and still being discriminatory to others, or not forcing society to reevaluate why we grant these benefits to married couples in the first place.

Gay marriage wasn't about rights, it was all about the bennies.

Chris22

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #93 on: May 26, 2016, 10:16:33 AM »
The whole gay marriage thing is stupid.  As a republican, I can't, for the life of me, understand how dictating who can marry whom is a plank in the party that purports to be for "small government".  That's a completely arbitrary restriction just to have a restriction, and those are the worst kind. 

I'm against gay marriage, although I'm against allowing the government to be involved in marriage, in anyone's intimate relationship, altogether. I think they went the wrong way by expanding access to those 'rights' and still being discriminatory to others, or not forcing society to reevaluate why we grant these benefits to married couples in the first place.

Gay marriage wasn't about rights, it was all about the bennies.

Disagree, most people on both sides of the aisle just want the word Marriage.  Most anti-gay-marriage conservatives don't object to civil unions, they don't care about gays having the same rights, they just don't want them to get 'married.'  OTOH, most gay marriage advocates say civil unions aren't enough, they want equality and that means 'marriage', not civil union.

Frankly, it comes across as both just want to force the other to do what they want for no rational reason, just out of spite. 

Chris22

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #94 on: May 26, 2016, 10:23:49 AM »

Whether she's lying now or then is the question.  She could have been lying then for political reasons. 


Yeah, but hard to claim you were "always for" gay marriage when there are videos of you giving speeches claiming to be against it.  That ain't exactly support in my world, even if you do claim you just do it because politics.  Frankly, makes it worse in my opinion.  It makes you unprincipled, and it clearly makes you a liar.

Johnez

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #95 on: May 26, 2016, 10:36:33 AM »
Can't wait for the election to be done with....

Gin1984

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #96 on: May 26, 2016, 10:36:44 AM »
The whole gay marriage thing is stupid.  As a republican, I can't, for the life of me, understand how dictating who can marry whom is a plank in the party that purports to be for "small government".  That's a completely arbitrary restriction just to have a restriction, and those are the worst kind. 

I'm against gay marriage, although I'm against allowing the government to be involved in marriage, in anyone's intimate relationship, altogether. I think they went the wrong way by expanding access to those 'rights' and still being discriminatory to others, or not forcing society to reevaluate why we grant these benefits to married couples in the first place.

Gay marriage wasn't about rights, it was all about the bennies.

Disagree, most people on both sides of the aisle just want the word Marriage.  Most anti-gay-marriage conservatives don't object to civil unions, they don't care about gays having the same rights, they just don't want them to get 'married.'  OTOH, most gay marriage advocates say civil unions aren't enough, they want equality and that means 'marriage', not civil union.

Frankly, it comes across as both just want to force the other to do what they want for no rational reason, just out of spite.
Many gay rights groups said no separate but equal.  So either EVERYONE gets civil unions or marriage.  Deciding you get more rights (which marriage does give you a ton of rights) because of biology is wrong.  Saying that is not spite.

iris lily

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #97 on: May 26, 2016, 10:48:07 AM »

Whether she's lying now or then is the question.  She could have been lying then for political reasons. 


Yeah, but hard to claim you were "always for" gay marriage when there are videos of you giving speeches claiming to be against it.  That ain't exactly support in my world, even if you do claim you just do it because politics.  Frankly, makes it worse in my opinion.  It makes you unprincipled, and it clearly makes you a liar.

Did Hillary actually say she was always in favor of gay marriage? I could believe that in truth, she always was in favor, but gave speaches against it for whatever political reason.

At least our President "evolved""even though I sThink he lies, he was always in favor the f,gay marriage he just didnt take it until a political climate supported it.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 11:11:38 AM by iris lily »

zephyr911

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #98 on: May 26, 2016, 10:54:19 AM »
The whole gay marriage thing is stupid.  As a republican, I can't, for the life of me, understand how dictating who can marry whom is a plank in the party that purports to be for "small government".  That's a completely arbitrary restriction just to have a restriction, and those are the worst kind. 

I'm against gay marriage, although I'm against allowing the government to be involved in marriage, in anyone's intimate relationship, altogether. I think they went the wrong way by expanding access to those 'rights' and still being discriminatory to others, or not forcing society to reevaluate why we grant these benefits to married couples in the first place.

Gay marriage wasn't about rights, it was all about the bennies.

Disagree, most people on both sides of the aisle just want the word Marriage.  Most anti-gay-marriage conservatives don't object to civil unions, they don't care about gays having the same rights, they just don't want them to get 'married.'  OTOH, most gay marriage advocates say civil unions aren't enough, they want equality and that means 'marriage', not civil union.

Frankly, it comes across as both just want to force the other to do what they want for no rational reason, just out of spite.
Full equality and forcing "the other side", or anyone in general, to do what you want, are distinct things. Wouldn't you agree? Or are you saying that full equality is achievable via civil unions or some other "separate but equal" program?
Is it ever possible to provide full equality through a separate legal avenue with a different name? Doesn't that, at a bare minimum, allow the historically accepted group to maintain an air of superiority?

**EDIT** I meant to also say, I meant these as exploratory questions to understand your position better, but it's all rhetorical, or moot if you prefer, since SCOTUS held SBE invalid several decades ago and seems unlikely to reverse course.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 11:04:57 AM by zephyr911 »

MrMoogle

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #99 on: May 26, 2016, 11:20:58 AM »
The whole gay marriage thing is stupid.  As a republican, I can't, for the life of me, understand how dictating who can marry whom is a plank in the party that purports to be for "small government".  That's a completely arbitrary restriction just to have a restriction, and those are the worst kind. 

I'm against gay marriage, although I'm against allowing the government to be involved in marriage, in anyone's intimate relationship, altogether. I think they went the wrong way by expanding access to those 'rights' and still being discriminatory to others, or not forcing society to reevaluate why we grant these benefits to married couples in the first place.

Gay marriage wasn't about rights, it was all about the bennies.

Disagree, most people on both sides of the aisle just want the word Marriage.  Most anti-gay-marriage conservatives don't object to civil unions, they don't care about gays having the same rights, they just don't want them to get 'married.'  OTOH, most gay marriage advocates say civil unions aren't enough, they want equality and that means 'marriage', not civil union.

Frankly, it comes across as both just want to force the other to do what they want for no rational reason, just out of spite.
Full equality and forcing "the other side", or anyone in general, to do what you want, are distinct things. Wouldn't you agree? Or are you saying that full equality is achievable via civil unions or some other "separate but equal" program?
Is it ever possible to provide full equality through a separate legal avenue with a different name? Doesn't that, at a bare minimum, allow the historically accepted group to maintain an air of superiority?

**EDIT** I meant to also say, I meant these as exploratory questions to understand your position better, but it's all rhetorical, or moot if you prefer, since SCOTUS held SBE invalid several decades ago and seems unlikely to reverse course.
If the government got out of the marriage business, and allowed couples to call themselves whatever they wanted, that would be equal, I think.

But then lots of things would have to change to allow that to work.  Tax code, child support, inheritances, medical power of attorney issues, etc.

I think this way would be a bigger mess.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!