Author Topic: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege  (Read 21105 times)

Gin1984

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Interesting new research shows how the households that would benefit most from cost savings are the least able to access them.

<MOD NOTE:  Quote one or two paragraphs, not the whole article>

http://www.treehugger.com/culture/hunting-deals-and-buying-bulk-rich-persons-privilege.html

I find this idea interesting because many of the ways we save on here come from a position of having money to start.  Even being on ting which saved me a ton meant that I had money to by the phone upfront.  I feel the last line makes a big statement here too.  Access means that those in poverty do change their behavior.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 09:57:23 AM by FrugalToque »

Cassie

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2016, 11:40:28 AM »
Also many poor neighborhoods are within what is called a food desert with no big grocery chains in walking distance so people are forced to shop at higher priced stores for food.

BTDretire

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2016, 01:09:52 PM »


Households generally save money in two ways – looking for good deals and buying in bulk. Interestingly, these money-saving tactics are utilized more by high-income households than low-income ones. ” Researchers tracked the purchase of toilet paper for seven years by more than 100,000 American families from different financial backgrounds. Toilet paper was selected for the study because it is often sold in bulk, frequently on sale, non-perishable, and easy to store, and a household’s need for it cannot be met by another product.


 I guess I'm letting out household financial info,  I'm sure we have over 400 rolls of toilet paper and 300 rolls of paper towels. Yes, all bought on sale and probably with a coupon.  We are empty nesters and one of the kids room has stacks as high as my wife can reach. I could be under estimating the amounts!  My wife is the frugal bulk shopper.

Zikoris

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2016, 01:33:48 PM »
Hmm... we have a small apartment and no car, yet somehow manage to buy a lot of things in bulk without causing any upticks in spending.

It doesn't cost much to get started on bulk purchasing. A several-month sack of rice here costs $10-$20 depending on size. We pay $6-$7 for 20lbs of flour, which is a month of bread, bread-ish main dishes (pot pie, burritos, pizza, empanadas, etc) and baking for two people. Sure, you can buy 400 rolls of TP, but realistically as long as you're not buying individual rolls from 7-11, you shouldn't be spending very much on that.

I certainly hope none of the people complaining about not being able to afford to buy in bulk have cable or expensive phone packages, as a single month of those bills would be enough to build a HUGE surplus of dry goods.

KarefulKactus15

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2016, 01:54:08 PM »
Thanks for sharing

SomedayStache

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2016, 02:13:03 PM »
I have been on both sides of this and agree with that article.

Sure, a $10 to $20 bag of rice doesn't sound expensive.  Unless you only have $20 to last the rest of the week and want something to put on top of your rice!

When I was poor and struggling I usually stole toilet paper from my university.  Yep, not too proud of that.

Since I'm good at math and planning I could SEE those deals, I understood that buying in bulk was the better long-term plan, abut I could rarely afford to do so.   I vividly remember buying a bulk pack of Venus razors from Costco.  It seemed like an exorbitant splurge and I agonized about spending so much at once.  That was probably 10 years ago and I still have unopened razor blades from that purchase.

Zikoris

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2016, 02:30:12 PM »
I have been on both sides of this and agree with that article.

Sure, a $10 to $20 bag of rice doesn't sound expensive.  Unless you only have $20 to last the rest of the week and want something to put on top of your rice!

When I was poor and struggling I usually stole toilet paper from my university.  Yep, not too proud of that.

Since I'm good at math and planning I could SEE those deals, I understood that buying in bulk was the better long-term plan, abut I could rarely afford to do so.   I vividly remember buying a bulk pack of Venus razors from Costco.  It seemed like an exorbitant splurge and I agonized about spending so much at once.  That was probably 10 years ago and I still have unopened razor blades from that purchase.

I think the vast majority of people at all income levels could find $20/month worth of fat to cut for the short term to greatly improve their lives. I sure could, and I spend around $700/month on everything except travel.

MillenialMustache

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2016, 02:35:39 PM »

The University of Michigan has published a new working paper called “Being Frugal Is Hard To Afford.” Researchers tracked the purchase of toilet paper for seven years by more than 100,000 American families from different financial backgrounds. Toilet paper was selected for the study because it is often sold in bulk, frequently on sale, non-perishable, and easy to store, and a household’s need for it cannot be met by another product.

Funny the assumptions that are always made. We buy a very limited amount of toilet paper because we have a bidet attachment on our toilet, about $40 total. Bidets are common in many modern countries, outside the US.

Yaeger

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2016, 02:46:34 PM »
I tend to look at the causal relationship a little more differently. Do the more affluent hunt for deals and buy in bulk because of the privilege of being rich, even if they could afford to spend? Or do the financial habits of the rich embrace frugality because they tend to influence their purchases like buying in bulk and shopping around?

I've seen numerous studies of millionaires that drive small cheap cars, live in small houses, and live below their means on a continual basis. The Millionaire Next Door is a great book about analyzing the financial habits of millionaires in this regard. Not only do the wealthier tend to analyze their spending habits and impose more self-restraint on their purchases, but I'd say that their financial habits, buying in bulk for over 30-40 years, have directly contributed to their accumulation of wealth.

ormaybemidgets

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2016, 03:09:18 PM »
I certainly hope none of the people complaining about not being able to afford to buy in bulk have cable or expensive phone packages, as a single month of those bills would be enough to build a HUGE surplus of dry goods.

What? Who are these people complaining and so offending you? This study is based on Neilsen data, which is cold hard data and not "complaints." Do you need to invent people to feel better than?

There was a similar discussion here last year that I thought was very good: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/i-can't-afford-to-be-poor!!/

human

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2016, 03:44:39 PM »
I certainly hope none of the people complaining about not being able to afford to buy in bulk have cable or expensive phone packages, as a single month of those bills would be enough to build a HUGE surplus of dry goods.

What? Who are these people complaining and so offending you? This study is based on Neilsen data, which is cold hard data and not "complaints." Do you need to invent people to feel better than?

There was a similar discussion here last year that I thought was very good: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/i-can't-afford-to-be-poor!!/

I've also never met a minimum wage worker who works 9-5, they usually have weird hours and multiple part time jobs making it difficult to get to that ethnic food store that sells 100lb bags of rice. The also don't have 30-40 minutes to watch the stuff cook and then store away. My dad usually gave us 1.99 to go get a can of chef bouardee or KD at the corner store, and yes he also gave us 5 bucks to buy him a pack of smokes while we were at it.

Cranky

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2016, 04:04:41 PM »
There's a big difference between people living at the poverty level, and people who aren't upper income.

Absolutely, people who rely on food from the food bank probably have problems coming up with $20 to buy a bulk pack of tp, which is why tp is always in such demand at the food pantry.

Beyond that level, there are plenty of people who choose to allocate their resources differently than I do. I live in a low income neighborhood and I don't drive, and I have hauled plenty of bargain megapacks of tp home from CVS.

Cassie

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2016, 05:07:09 PM »
Zik: I am assuming you can walk to cheaper stores or ride public transportation. Many towns in the US have terrible mass transit. There have been many studies done on "food deserts in the US." Read some of them to discover the issues.  I used to be  a social worker and they are real and huge for many people.  Many poor people are unable to find f.t. jobs so work 2 or 3 p.t. ones which leaves a lot less time for shopping, cooking, etc especially when you don't have a car.

Yaeger

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2016, 05:29:03 PM »
Zik: I am assuming you can walk to cheaper stores or ride public transportation. Many towns in the US have terrible mass transit. There have been many studies done on "food deserts in the US." Read some of them to discover the issues.  I used to be  a social worker and they are real and huge for many people.  Many poor people are unable to find f.t. jobs so work 2 or 3 p.t. ones which leaves a lot less time for shopping, cooking, etc especially when you don't have a car.

I think the data points in the opposite direction, as your income increases so do hours worked. The working rich have less time for shopping, cooking, etc than the poor. You might have a point in regards to transportation, though you'd need to be really poor to not have at least a beater vehicle in the US.


aschmidt2930

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2016, 06:03:45 PM »
Is it a disadvantage for the poorest among us?  Sure, but saying it's a "privilege for the rich" is a bit of a stretch. A vast majority of people have the resources to buy everyday items in bulk if they're using resources effectively.

MrStash2000

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2016, 06:05:50 PM »
Honestly, I think the University of Michagan and the Atlantic are "face punch" worthy.

They may call it "rich privilege" I call it complany-pants. Sams Club might not be around but Thrift stores and Craigslist are everywhere.

Anyone can be frugal. It just takes an ounce of creative thinking.

Sturton

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2016, 06:18:31 PM »
I think a number of people on this thread do not really understand the challenges of the genuinely poor.  In fact it's clear that they don't.  And I suspect that they don't want to.

Cassie

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2016, 06:29:59 PM »
May, many poor people don't have beater vehicles. Try getting kids to daycare and work and home again by long bus rides. Work as a social worker for awhile and then report back.  Being frugal and being genuinely poor are not the same things.  Frugal people have $ to deal with lives challenges.  Some poor people are worried about having enough food for their family and not because they have cable and cell phones. There actually is a government program that pays for cheap cell phones/plans so people have some phone access. 

Rural

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2016, 06:34:29 PM »
I've been too poor to buy in bulk, but not too poor to look for bargains. Of course, when I was too poor to buy in bulk, I was also too poor to be buying things at the thrift store and saved my money for food.


Bulk buying in particular is hard when you're poor enough that food is limited. It becomes more difficult to exclude pests like rodents and insects, for example. The best workaround I've seen is rural living - then the bulk food can be gotten for close to free, and family and neighbors will generally help those with a shortage of canning jars, either for nothing or for a reasonable number of filled jars in return. (Canning is better than freezing in this scenario because then electricity is something you can let slide if you have to.)


But poor enough to be hungry in an urban environment is a real barrier to bulk buying, or sometimes even to buying a couple of extra cans or bags of beans when they're on sale. And no, I didn't have a cell phone or a TV.


So, there are things you can do, but the barriers are real. I agree with the poster who said "rich" is an overstatement, though. You need to be about at the federal poverty level or a little below, but not a lot below, to be able to start buying food in a way that lets you employ that long-term thinking. Or be rural and you can be a lot below poverty level, but then you grow or hunt the food.

ETA I also didn't buy cigarettes or lottery tickets, since that's come up.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 04:51:53 AM by Rural »

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2016, 06:38:58 PM »
Poor people should do their shopping at the Kwik-E-Mart. All they eat is junk food and drink soda anyway ;)

Yaeger

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2016, 07:03:21 PM »
I love the fact that the very programs aimed to help the poor, are the very programs responsible for the cycle of poverty. Irony. People never contemplate the negative consequences for these well-intentioned programs and it's a fundamental problem with most people's understanding of poverty. If you focus on 'helping' people in the short term, it's often at the expense of meaningful change in the long term.

The greatest period of poverty reduction in US history happened just prior to LBJ's 1965 War on Poverty. We've been at about that same level ever since no matter how much more we spend today than in 1965. History suggests that the only meaningful method to combat poverty has been through economic prosperity, Capitalism. This is most easily seen by looking at our GDP growth rates. We haven't grown more than 5% since Reagan, 3% since Bush, we're averaging ~2% under Obama which is close to economic stagnation territory. The poor cannot escape poverty without higher economic growth.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 07:45:12 PM by Yaeger »

tobitonic

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2016, 08:19:06 PM »
I think a number of people on this thread do not really understand the challenges of the genuinely poor.  In fact it's clear that they don't.  And I suspect that they don't want to.

If most were interested in understanding poverty or the working class here, there wouldn't be a shaming subforum...or a great deal of the threads in the general discussion subforum.

Celda

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2016, 08:42:07 PM »
Quote
What? Who are these people complaining and so offending you? This study is based on Neilsen data, which is cold hard data and not "complaints." Do you need to invent people to feel better than?

No, you don't understand.

Of the people who claim that they cannot afford to buy frugally because they are low-income, some of those also buy cigarettes, alcohol, cable TV, or expensive cell phone plans. For instance, one study found that low-income smokers in New York spend 25% of income on cigarettes. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/20/nyregion/poor-smokers-in-new-york-state-spend-25-of-income-on-cigarettes-study-says.html?_r=1&=_r=6

Therefore, we know that those people are liars, because they can afford to buy frugally. They simply choose not to, and instead spend their money on luxuries.

kinetic

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2016, 08:54:12 PM »
Quote
What? Who are these people complaining and so offending you? This study is based on Neilsen data, which is cold hard data and not "complaints." Do you need to invent people to feel better than?

No, you don't understand.

Of the people who claim that they cannot afford to buy frugally because they are low-income, some of those also buy cigarettes, alcohol, cable TV, or expensive cell phone plans. For instance, one study found that low-income smokers in New York spend 25% of income on cigarettes. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/20/nyregion/poor-smokers-in-new-york-state-spend-25-of-income-on-cigarettes-study-says.html?_r=1&=_r=6

Therefore, we know that those people are liars, because they can afford to buy frugally. They simply choose not to, and instead spend their money on luxuries.

i don't think the rejection of frugality is necessarily a choice.  you would have to be somewhat tech-savvy and aware that of the MMM movement in order to research it and embrace it.  so how can the poor make a choice when they don't know they have one?

also as has been stated above, the poor (working and otherwise) are too busy trying to keep their shit together to look for other options. i'm just a noob here but i can see the value of educating folks about shopping/spending/saving strategies who may not otherwise have access to that information.

also i grew up in a single parent home, part of the masses of the faceless working poor.  we received benefits like subsidized school lunches, etc.  it was only when i went to college that i realized that there are strategies that can be learned for keeping more of my money or for making it do what i want it to do.  after that, what i did with my money and my time was definitely my choice.

Celda

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2016, 09:01:42 PM »
Quote
i don't think the rejection of frugality is necessarily a choice.

When I say frugality, I don't mean early retirement or anything like that.

I mean, buying a 30-roll pack of toilet paper that costs less per roll than a 10-roll pack.

No one needs any external knowledge to know that one is a better deal than the other. The only reason you wouldn't buy the better deal is if you couldn't afford the 30-roll pack. However, if anyone claims that they can't afford it, while also buying cigarettes or lottery tickets, then we know they are liars.

kinetic

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2016, 09:04:36 PM »
Quote
i don't think the rejection of frugality is necessarily a choice.

When I say frugality, I don't mean early retirement or anything like that.

I mean, buying a 30-roll pack of toilet paper that costs less per roll than a 10-roll pack.

No one needs any external knowledge to know that one is a better deal than the other. The only reason you wouldn't buy the better deal is if you couldn't afford the 30-roll pack. However, if anyone claims that they can't afford it, while also buying cigarettes or lottery tickets, then we know they are liars.

or that they are dealing with an addiction or trying to buy some hope in what may seem like a hopeless life, at least financially. 

i have a personal issue.  i know how to fix it yet still i don't or can't.  that doesn't mean i'm a liar.

human

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2016, 09:05:35 PM »
Quote
What? Who are these people complaining and so offending you? This study is based on Neilsen data, which is cold hard data and not "complaints." Do you need to invent people to feel better than?

No, you don't understand.

Of the people who claim that they cannot afford to buy frugally because they are low-income, some of those also buy cigarettes, alcohol, cable TV, or expensive cell phone plans. For instance, one study found that low-income smokers in New York spend 25% of income on cigarettes. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/20/nyregion/poor-smokers-in-new-york-state-spend-25-of-income-on-cigarettes-study-says.html?_r=1&=_r=6

Therefore, we know that those people are liars, because they can afford to buy frugally. They simply choose not to, and instead spend their money on luxuries.

i don't think the rejection of frugality is necessarily a choice.  you would have to be somewhat tech-savvy and aware that of the MMM movement in order to research it and embrace it.  so how can the poor make a choice when they don't know they have one?

also as has been stated above, the poor (working and otherwise) are too busy trying to keep their shit together to look for other options. i'm just a noob here but i can see the value of educating folks about shopping/spending/saving strategies who may not otherwise have access to that information.

also i grew up in a single parent home, part of the masses of the faceless working poor.  we received benefits like subsidized school lunches, etc.  it was only when i went to college that i realized that there are strategies that can be learned for keeping more of my money or for making it do what i want it to do.  after that, what i did with my money and my time was definitely my choice.

Same here, raised by a single dad. He never bothered to seek out subsidies just gave us ten or twenty bucks here and there and told us to get something to eat. Was he good with money? Hell no and still isn't. News flash everyone poor people don't have a fucking clue how to spend properly, and they don't want to listen to uppity yuppies tell them how to spend their dough.

You don't break the poverty cycle by buying fucking tp in bulk, you break it with a decent education and good jobs. Not easy for a single parent with two kids on less than 28k a year.

brooklynmoney

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2016, 09:27:19 PM »
I frequently buy Seventh Generation 4 packs of TP at my fancy corner bodega because of convenience. Realizing my TP shopping habits are face punch worthy.

former player

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2016, 05:12:53 AM »
Here's an extract from a book written in the UK in 1938 (Ruined City, Neville Shute) which I think explains pretty well both the lack of privilege of being on a subsistence income and how some of you are so scathing about what the poor spend money on, for something written for entertainment nearly 80 years ago.

""It's like this.  There's really nothing wrong with the rates of relief.  If you are careful, and wise, and prudent, you can live on that amount of money fairly well. And you've got to be intelligent, and well educated too, and rather selfish.  If you were like that, you'd get along all right - but you wouldn't have a penny to spare.  [...] But if you were human - well, you'd be for it.  If you got bored stiff with doing nothing so that you went and blued fourpence on going to the pictures - you just wouldn't have enough to eat that week.  Or if you couldn't cook very well, and spoiled the food a bit, you'd go hungry.  You'd go hungry if your wife had a birthday and you wanted to give her a little present costing a bob - you'd only get eighty per cent of your food that week.  And of course, if your wife gets ill and you want to buy her little fancy bits of things ...".  She shrugged her shoulders.  "You've seen it up there."

He was silent for a minute. [...]  At last he said "That's terrible.  Because it's so difficult to change.  You can't expect people in work to pay for people who are idle going to the pictures, or giving presents to their wives.  We haven't reached that stage of Socialism yet.  And that means there must always be starvation, in a small degree.  Because people are human, and a little foolish sometimes."

She faced him bitterly.  "There's only one cure for starvation - work!  If only we could get some work back here!  That's the only thing that allows you to be human and foolish, as you've got to be.""

So what if you don't have the education to get work, or the right papers?   If you don't have the money or resources to leave your poor and workless neighbourhood?  If the work you can get pays below minimum wage or less than 30 hours a week, so your employer doesn't have to be health insurance or a pension?  If you don't have family to fall back on, or all your friends are as poor as you are?  Are you not allowed to be human?

winkeyman

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2016, 06:55:05 AM »
Here's an extract from a book written in the UK in 1938 (Ruined City, Neville Shute) which I think explains pretty well both the lack of privilege of being on a subsistence income and how some of you are so scathing about what the poor spend money on, for something written for entertainment nearly 80 years ago.

""It's like this.  There's really nothing wrong with the rates of relief.  If you are careful, and wise, and prudent, you can live on that amount of money fairly well. And you've got to be intelligent, and well educated too, and rather selfish.  If you were like that, you'd get along all right - but you wouldn't have a penny to spare.  [...] But if you were human - well, you'd be for it.  If you got bored stiff with doing nothing so that you went and blued fourpence on going to the pictures - you just wouldn't have enough to eat that week.  Or if you couldn't cook very well, and spoiled the food a bit, you'd go hungry.  You'd go hungry if your wife had a birthday and you wanted to give her a little present costing a bob - you'd only get eighty per cent of your food that week.  And of course, if your wife gets ill and you want to buy her little fancy bits of things ...".  She shrugged her shoulders.  "You've seen it up there."

He was silent for a minute. [...]  At last he said "That's terrible.  Because it's so difficult to change.  You can't expect people in work to pay for people who are idle going to the pictures, or giving presents to their wives.  We haven't reached that stage of Socialism yet.  And that means there must always be starvation, in a small degree.  Because people are human, and a little foolish sometimes."

She faced him bitterly.  "There's only one cure for starvation - work!  If only we could get some work back here!  That's the only thing that allows you to be human and foolish, as you've got to be.""

So what if you don't have the education to get work, or the right papers?   If you don't have the money or resources to leave your poor and workless neighbourhood?  If the work you can get pays below minimum wage or less than 30 hours a week, so your employer doesn't have to be health insurance or a pension?  If you don't have family to fall back on, or all your friends are as poor as you are?  Are you not allowed to be human?

Every truly and seemingly-permanently poor (American) person I have ever known well has made incredibly bad decisions, over and over again. Not little "human" errors of judgment from time to time, but almost inhuman feats of fuck-upery.

Eddie, who I worked alongside with at a Greet restaurant. Eddie lived in a bad neighborhood on the south side of San Antonio and drove a beat up old car. He saved up for weeks to buy nice wheels and tires for his car, which he parked on the street in front of the house he shared with 5 other guys. The wheels were stolen and the car left on cinderblocks. Now his car had no wheels. He had no insurance, so no pay-out to replace them. He had to beg rides to work, missing some shifts here and there for weeks. Somehow he didn't get fired. He bought the same exact wheels, which were promptly stolen again, starting the cycle over. Eventually he saved up some money and bought normal crappy looking steel wheels with hubcaps for his car, and they were not stolen again. I know exactly how much money he made (because we got paid the same) and I know that this must have wrecked his whole year financially.

My cousin, who I was visiting after not seeing him for many years. He explained to me he had gotten out of jail recently and was on probation. He had a drug test the next morning, could I believe that bullshit? Later that evening he lit up a joint, took a drag, and offered it to me. I refused, asking "Don't you have a drug test tomorrow?" He looked at me like I was stupid and said "Yeah, so?" Back to jail he went, for longer this time.

Another co-worker at a corporate job who made good money. This guy was single and made $50k+ a year but was effectively poor. In the time that I knew him, he had multiple cars repoed, was evicted once, and more. Every day he bought at least 3 Monster energy drinks from the vending machine at work for $3 each. I explained to him that he could order a case of Monsters on Amazon for $1.50 each with free shipping. He could even set it up so they would send him a case a week, so he wouldn't forget. I showed him how this would save him over $1000 a year. He acknowledged that I was right, and he should do it. He never did. I offered to include Monsters in my amazon pantry refill list and bring them to him at work, and he could pay me for them at my cost. He refused.

Another extended family member who had a promising upbringing but ended up chronically poor and semi-homeless. She lived in Detroit and had very few options available to her, and was surrounded by bad influences. My parents (this was when I was a teenager) offered to pay for her to fly to Houston and live with us and help her get on her feet. She did. We used our connections to set her up with a job, and she had no bills. This lasted for 3 weeks until she met a guy at a night club and decided to move in with him. He turned out to be a rather unsavory character- I remember my parents paying her/his rent twice before they were evicted and she ended up on the streets, and eventually back in Detroit. She lived in poverty until she died young last month.

A friend from high school who I ran into last year. She never really "launched" after high school and has been living in poverty ever since. She was unemployed. I made some calls and got her a server job at a place I used to work, where you can make really good money if you are decent at waiting tables. A few weeks later I found out she was no longer working there. I called her and asked her what happened. She explained that she quit because the job was boring and she didn't like having to be polite to customers.

I could go on and on. Dozens of people living in poverty that I have observed and tried to help or advise to some extent or another. Almost all of them refused to make simple changes to help themselves, even when those changes were pointed out to them, or pushed on them. Poor Americans aren't poor because they spoil a dinner or buy flowers for their wife while on a shoestring budget. That is laughable.

undercover

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2016, 07:02:31 AM »
I wouldn't say "rich", just a somewhat savvy person. It's certainly not hard to save up what's required to purchase in bulk. Maybe they meant a "rich mentality".

acroy

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2016, 07:13:07 AM »
"Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege" - Pure BS
Truth below!


I think the data points in the opposite direction, as your income increases so do hours worked. The working rich have less time for shopping, cooking, etc than the poor. You might have a point in regards to transportation, though you'd need to be really poor to not have at least a beater vehicle in the US.



andy85

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2016, 07:16:58 AM »
....Households generally save money in two ways – looking for good deals and buying in bulk. Interestingly, these money-saving tactics are utilized more by high-income households than low-income ones......
I quit reading after this...
I save money by not buying stupid shit. I value efficiency over cost savings most of the time, so i don't spend time hunting for deals or buying in bulk. This also suggest that high-income households are high-income because they buy in bulk/find good deals and that low-income households are low-income because they can't. I simply don't buy either of those suggestions.

Saving $1.50 on toilet paper isn't going to determine household income. It is all about poor education, no job prospects, and bad life decisions....sometimes these are by no fault of their own, but other times they are.

former player

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2016, 07:23:30 AM »
I could go on and on. Dozens of people living in poverty that I have observed and tried to help or advise to some extent or another. Almost all of them refused to make simple changes to help themselves, even when those changes were pointed out to them, or pushed on them. Poor Americans aren't poor because they spoil a dinner or buy flowers for their wife while on a shoestring budget. That is laughable.

The principle still holds true, though.

A guy wants nice wheels on his car, but he doesn't have a garage and lives in a shitty neighbourhood.  He had a dream, and he was the victim not the thief.  Are his circumstances supposed to prevent him from dreaming?  You would say yes, I would say what else good does he have in his life?

Your pot smoking cousin has never learnt about consequences following actions, which is probably why he was in jail in the first place.  Why has he never learnt that?

Your co-worker drinking Monsters got something from his vending machine transactions that he wouldn't have got through a case delivered to home.  Did you ever find out what that was?

Bad influences hang around, just as good ones do.  "Doing a geographical" (ie moving to a new location) is a common phrase used by those trying to break an addiction: sometimes it works, often it doesn't, and when it works there is usually something else good involved as well.  Because wherever you go, there you are.

You high school friend is someone who failed to launch into adulthood so her failure to stick at an adult job is not entirely surprising.  Why did she fail to launch?

So kudos to you for offering help, but if it didn't work there were reasons.


SomedayStache

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2016, 07:26:40 AM »
Passing judgment on an entire subset of the population based on limited life-experience and observation of some folks making bad decisions is the MMM'ers privilege.

But doesn't mean I have to keep reading.  I'm out.

big_slacker

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2016, 08:12:21 AM »
I grew up poor, and I agree that some here have obviously built up a story in their head about all people being one way or another. Being poor gives you all kinds of disadvantages that makes it a huge struggle to move up even if you want to.

We had a family of 6, 5 males. Single income, dad was a factory/steel worker. My parents were extremely frugal because they HAD TO BE. My mom made some of our clothes, the rest goodwill and so on. On the topic of the OP she bought lots of flour, pasta, boxes of canned foods, bulk foods and made most of our meals from scratch. Meat and fresh fruit was very sparse and limited. We had to make a pilgrimage to the bulk shopping place every couple of weeks. 1 beater car and the kids loved that trip! We got food coupons for school breakfast and lunch which was huge.

So you want to move on up in the world from the outside the formula looks simple. Do good in school, get a scholarship so you can afford it and in 25 years *poof* you're middle class or better. Never mind that you're going to be in schools of much lower quality (the good teachers and budget don't go to ghetto schools), you're under constant threat of physical violence. There is a pervasive attitude that doing good in school is for nerds and you're gonna be bullied for it. There are the typical traps of drugs, alcohol and gangs.

The mental health issue is worth noting as well. Growing up in this type of environment can give kids a type of low level PTSD, depression, anxiety, anger issues and so on. I've dealt with the laundry list myself, I know of what I speak here.

In terms of study your parents aren't doctors or lawyers. They're probably working opposite shifts to make ends meet so they'll be exhausted as well. You're not getting a lot of help here even if they want it.

Assuming you overcome this probably with the help of good parents (which are rare) or a saint of a teacher who takes an interest and you do well enough to get into a college scholarship how do you pay? Again, your parents can't afford it and while scholarships are nice true full ride ones are rare. So you need to get financial aid and probably work part time. Anyone who has worked part time and gone to school full time knows what that grind is like. And now different distractions are there with college friends who have money and don't work pulling you away from study, etc. It takes a strong will.

And yes there are other ways out like military, trades, etc. My friends growing up who 'made it' (AKA didn't end up in jail, dead, gangs and welfare) largely took this route. I took another myself after trying and failing the college route.

Every time I hear people saying poor people are just lazy and sit around smoking welfare cigarettes and that they just need to straighten up and make good decisions I roll my eyes. The REASON that happens (and it does a lot) is because the alternative is a very tough uphill battle with an uncertain payoff way down the line. This isn't to say that there isn't an element of truth to the problems being largely cultural because I firmly believe a lot of them area. But it's putting the onus on each individual to make the right choices when their entire upbringing has led them to making the wrong choices shows a critical lack of both understanding and compassion.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 08:14:46 AM by big_slacker »

kite

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2016, 08:30:17 AM »
Interesting new research shows how the households that would benefit most from cost savings are the least able to access them.

Households generally save money in two ways – looking for good deals and buying in bulk. Interestingly, these money-saving tactics are utilized more by high-income households than low-income ones. This is unfortunate, since low-income households are precisely the ones who would benefit most from the financial savings; but it turns out that saving money in these ways requires resources that most low-incomes households do not have.

The University of Michigan has published a new working paper called “Being Frugal Is Hard To Afford.” Researchers tracked the purchase of toilet paper for seven years by more than 100,000 American families from different financial backgrounds. Toilet paper was selected for the study because it is often sold in bulk, frequently on sale, non-perishable, and easy to store, and a household’s need for it cannot be met by another product.

The researchers found that low-income households are less likely to purchase in bulk because they don’t have enough money to make extra purchases beyond what’s necessary in the immediate present. As a result, they have a smaller inventory stored at home, which forces them to purchase toilet paper at short notice, even when it’s not on sale.
Ah, no.
Households save money in exactly one way: by not spending. 
You only end up having to buy toilet paper on short notice if you aren't paying attention.  Being distracted can afflict all wealth and income levels, but the absolute need and usage rate for TP remains relatively constant. 
In fact, by focusing on TP, the Michigan researchers make the mistake Abraham Wald famously pointed out in the military's plan to reinforce aircraft where they returned from battle with holes from enemy fire. 
Bulk buying isn't the income generating & wealth preserving magic bullet it is made out to be.  Costco is hugely profitable and uses sophisticated psychological understanding to get the middle-class to part with their cash and feel good about doing it.  But households who saved a few pennies on TP & fancy cheese have plowed the difference (and then some) into a Vitamix or a Dyson. 
Lower income households are actually more frugal and price conscious BECAUSE their margin for error is so much narrower than it is for middle and high income households.  http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/mustachianism-around-the-web/nyt-the-rich-can-learn-from-the-poor-about-how-to-be-frugal/

The problem with the Michigan study and some of the bleeding heart responses to it is that we end up with costly solutions to non-problems that leave everyone standing in line for toilet paper.  Capitalism, while often unfair and by its very nature unequal, feeds more people than socialism ever could.  It supplies all of them with better toilet paper, even if means the 1% can wipe their asses with warmed baby wipes.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2016, 08:33:07 AM »
Plus pre-natal and early childhood nutrition have huge effects on brain development.  And early childhood really affects how a child approaches life.  The marshmallow test ended up measuring not so much a child's ability to delay gratification, but how much the child believed the extra payoff would actually happen.  That is bound to affect how well someone plans ahead, versus living in the present.  How many stories are out there about a child who saved, and whose parents then spent that money?  That is an incentive to spend while the money is there, not save for future use.

SwordGuy

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2016, 10:03:52 AM »
I could go on and on. Dozens of people living in poverty that I have observed and tried to help or advise to some extent or another. Almost all of them refused to make simple changes to help themselves, even when those changes were pointed out to them, or pushed on them. Poor Americans aren't poor because they spoil a dinner or buy flowers for their wife while on a shoestring budget. That is laughable.

The principle still holds true, though.

A guy wants nice wheels on his car, but he doesn't have a garage and lives in a shitty neighbourhood.  He had a dream, and he was the victim not the thief.  Are his circumstances supposed to prevent him from dreaming?  You would say yes, I would say what else good does he have in his life?

He could have set that money aside for job training.  He could have then gotten a better paying job, afforded better training, etc., until he could afford a better neighborhood and THEN gotten the fancy wheels.

Just because someone has a dream doesn't mean it's not a stupid dream, or a dream whose time has not come.

Your pot smoking cousin has never learnt about consequences following actions, which is probably why he was in jail in the first place.  Why has he never learnt that?

I don't know.   But a host of logic-less do-gooders telling him it's ok to do stupid things is unlikely to help convince him to change.

So kudos to you for offering help, but if it didn't work there were reasons.

Yep.  And those reasons are almost certainly dysfunctional attitudes coupled with repeated bad choices.


winkeyman

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2016, 11:01:27 AM »
I could go on and on. Dozens of people living in poverty that I have observed and tried to help or advise to some extent or another. Almost all of them refused to make simple changes to help themselves, even when those changes were pointed out to them, or pushed on them. Poor Americans aren't poor because they spoil a dinner or buy flowers for their wife while on a shoestring budget. That is laughable.

The principle still holds true, though.

A guy wants nice wheels on his car, but he doesn't have a garage and lives in a shitty neighbourhood.  He had a dream, and he was the victim not the thief.  Are his circumstances supposed to prevent him from dreaming?  You would say yes, I would say what else good does he have in his life?

Your pot smoking cousin has never learnt about consequences following actions, which is probably why he was in jail in the first place.  Why has he never learnt that?

Your co-worker drinking Monsters got something from his vending machine transactions that he wouldn't have got through a case delivered to home.  Did you ever find out what that was?

Bad influences hang around, just as good ones do.  "Doing a geographical" (ie moving to a new location) is a common phrase used by those trying to break an addiction: sometimes it works, often it doesn't, and when it works there is usually something else good involved as well.  Because wherever you go, there you are.

You high school friend is someone who failed to launch into adulthood so her failure to stick at an adult job is not entirely surprising.  Why did she fail to launch?

So kudos to you for offering help, but if it didn't work there were reasons.

The principle at hand does not hold true. The people I described above had character flaws that caused them to be the way they were. Simple as that. The point is, they didn't end up in their situations because they bought a candy bar when they shouldn't have, or bought their kids a GI Joe or a Happy Meal with their last dollar. Eddie could have handled a mis-step like that. There is a huge difference between a hiccup like that and spending all your savings or going into debt to buy flashy rims for your beater car.

I'm not sure what to say about your responses to the mini case studies I posted. Why did they do the stupid things they did? Because they had terrible character flaws and made terrible decisions that prevented them from bettering themselves. All of which was their own fault.

bacchi

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2016, 11:12:49 AM »
The mental health issue is worth noting as well. Growing up in this type of environment can give kids a type of low level PTSD, depression, anxiety, anger issues and so on. I've dealt with the laundry list myself, I know of what I speak here.

The link between poverty and intelligence (or at least gray matter) has been studied with MRI scans.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-20/brain-scans-reveal-how-poverty-hurts-children-s-brains


The more relevant question for the terminally poor is:

Even if it's their fault for making stupid decisions (aka, being human), how do we fix it? Or do we shrug and claim that there will always be poor so fuck 'em?

ketchup

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2016, 11:16:01 AM »
There are smart poor people and stupid poor people just like there are smart rich people and stupid rich people.  Being poor means you have less of a margin of error.  The smart poor people know that, but even they have to play more "not to lose" than "to win."  They're less likely to be the ones freezing $100 of butter when it goes on super-sale.

But I do agree with what some others are saying here.  Bulk-buying might be more difficult when poor, but that's hardly their worst problem.  The "boots theory" is similar but more relevant.

Quote
The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.

Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.

But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.

This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness

Essentially, short-term planning takes priority over long-term, because there's more uncertainty all around.  I know that nearly every time I've made a short-term decision instead of a long-term one it's been the wrong option.  Being poor is hard, and often those in the situation aren't the best at dealing with it.

I grew up in "perfect rich white family" upper-middle-class America.  My girlfriend grew up in inner-city white trash ghetto Phoenix raised by a narcissist welfare queen.  It wasn't until I visited her there the first time that I first began to learn what that sort of life and environment is really like.  And she didn't really understand how awful it was all around until she went back to visit for the first time after living elsewhere for a year and a half.

It can be toxic.  Draining.  People making bad decisions all around you, and trapping themselves into even worse situations.  Even if you're smart, you can get dragged into all that.  27% interest car loan because of shitty credit, no savings, and needing a car (not to mention no education on the topic).  $500/month electricity bill because your air conditioner is from the 1980s and you live in Phoenix with 100-110F days for the entire summer.  Oh, and many of them spending hundreds a month on cigarettes and alcohol because that environment breeds addicts (not to mention the harder stuff).  Those things alone can force someone scraping by on minimum wage to have very few options if something else goes wrong, which at its best leads to bad choices and at its worst leads to crime.  Her sisters came from the same place and situation, and one has all kinds of drug problems from self-medicating mental problems, and the other has pretty debilitating social anxiety.

Yes, some people are poor because they're dumb.  Others are born into it, and clawing out isn't easy even if you know what you're doing.  It also causes or aggravates all kinds of mental problems, and they're the least equipped to handle that.

Rural

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2016, 11:45:08 AM »
Ketchup, I think you've hit on the most important thing with the long-term vs short-term planning. The wherewithal to make decisions based on what's best over the long term is the biggest change I see in my own life as I've come out of that sort of poverty.


Interestingly, the rural option is more focused on long-term thinking, too. Has to be - you have to put by enough food to make it through the winter.



kite

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2016, 12:32:47 PM »
The mental health issue is worth noting as well. Growing up in this type of environment can give kids a type of low level PTSD, depression, anxiety, anger issues and so on. I've dealt with the laundry list myself, I know of what I speak here.

The link between poverty and intelligence (or at least gray matter) has been studied with MRI scans.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-20/brain-scans-reveal-how-poverty-hurts-children-s-brains


The more relevant question for the terminally poor is:

Even if it's their fault for making stupid decisions (aka, being human), how do we fix it? Or do we shrug and claim that there will always be poor so fuck 'em?
How do we fix what?
There will always be a bottom quintile.  There is no escaping this absolute fact.  A rising tide lifts all boats.  But if you shoot holes in the bottom of your boat, you've fucked yourself and no program is going to be perfectly patch all of them before you drown. 
Can we alleviate suffering?  Yes.
Must we feed the hungry, treat the sick, clothe the naked and shelter the homeless?  Absolutely.   As a Christian, I'm compelled by my faith to do those things.
Should we rig the game so everyone pays the same lowest possible price for toilet paper?  No.  Of course not.  In the socialist systems where that is the goal, the result is more suffering, not less.   But even if we could escape the socialist pitfalls and underwrite the Costco memberships for poor folks, cheaper toilet paper isn't their ticket out of the ghetto. The bulk buying habit is, for most of the middle class, not a ticket to wealth, but another sick pattern of over consumption.  Mustachian snowflakes are the exception  (or think they are, anyway).  But Costco isn't profitable because they are the cheapest place to buy everything.  If they were, they would court the grocery dollars of the very poor, too.  But really poor people are too smart to pay a premium for the privelege of shopping at Costco.  Costco, and every membership warehouse, courts the middle class SUV & Minivan driving harried parent who'll stock up on bulk packages of everything and run a spare fridge & freezer to keep hot pockets and juice boxes in steady supply.  They aren't in business to save that family money, but to get them to spend even more.

By American standards, I've been poor.  My husband was very poor.  We resent the assertion that our brains are damaged from having been poor in childhood.  We resent a view of us that fosters dependency and tells us we are incapable. 

SyZ

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2016, 12:49:57 PM »
Right. I was at the store yesterday and I saw somebody with 40 packages of Toothpaste because they had a BOGO special with apparently no limit. So, he effectively realized he can save 50% on something he'll always need. Now, I'm not sure the expiration date and how long 40 packages last, but ...

Either way, somebody who is living paycheck to paycheck would probably buy 2, or max 4, because they can't afford 20 boxes of toothpaste to then get 20 free

Northwestie

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2016, 01:25:55 PM »

By American standards, I've been poor.  My husband was very poor.  We resent the assertion that our brains are damaged from having been poor in childhood.  We resent a view of us that fosters dependency and tells us we are incapable.

Agreed.  Having been there it can be over-whelming how to out and very situational.  I admit there was a time when I felt, shoot, if I managed it why can't everyone else.  This was brought home to me in Anacostia neighborhood of D.C. when I saw too many examples of extremely poor parenting in a drug addled environment.  It was not the fault of the kid -  but born into such a state it would be nothing short of a miracle if he could escape it.

Digital Dogma

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2016, 02:15:59 PM »
I love the fact that the very programs aimed to help the poor, are the very programs responsible for the cycle of poverty. Irony. People never contemplate the negative consequences for these well-intentioned programs and it's a fundamental problem with most people's understanding of poverty. If you focus on 'helping' people in the short term, it's often at the expense of meaningful change in the long term.

The greatest period of poverty reduction in US history happened just prior to LBJ's 1965 War on Poverty. We've been at about that same level ever since no matter how much more we spend today than in 1965. History suggests that the only meaningful method to combat poverty has been through economic prosperity, Capitalism. This is most easily seen by looking at our GDP growth rates. We haven't grown more than 5% since Reagan, 3% since Bush, we're averaging ~2% under Obama which is close to economic stagnation territory. The poor cannot escape poverty without higher economic growth.
As I understand it, the food stamp program was originally designed to aid local farmers selling produce locally. Where I live we have a farmers market right in the center of a small city which accepts food stamps in exchange for locally grown produce sold by the actual producers. The idea went beyond near-term survival and focused on keeping a local economy functioning during a transition from agricultural economies to manufacturing based urban environments. Now that we've transitioned passed that, perhaps we should re-focus on cultivating local food sources and paying the producers a wage they can live on.

MrsPete

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2016, 02:17:30 PM »
also i grew up in a single parent home, part of the masses of the faceless working poor.  we received benefits like subsidized school lunches, etc.  it was only when i went to college that i realized that there are strategies that can be learned for keeping more of my money or for making it do what i want it to do.  after that, what i did with my money and my time was definitely my choice.
I didn't write this, but I could have.  From about the age of 14, I was in charge of most of the family's food purchases.  My budget?  The food stamps we received.  I had no problem buying enough food to last the month, but I didn't "get ahead" much by purchasing extras for later.  Rather, I'd fill my cart with our needs and then I'd spend the rest on ice cream.  I always spent exactly the amount I was given.  Yes, I could've purchased extra rice, beans, or chicken -- but I chose the ice cream. 

As a college student, I realized I could do better than my family of origin -- and I have. 

MrsPete

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #48 on: May 17, 2016, 02:25:15 PM »
Saving $1.50 on toilet paper isn't going to determine household income. It is all about poor education, no job prospects, and bad life decisions....sometimes these are by no fault of their own, but other times they are.
Of course it's about poor education.  Sure, everyone can't manage college -- a whole lot of people genuinely aren't smart enough to make it through, and if everyone did have a college degree we wouldn't have enough jobs to go around. 

Where we really fall short in education is in failing to funnel kids into our trades classes -- and we have excellent classes in our high schools that'll prepare kids for good, solid blue collar jobs, but instead we've decided that everyone should have a college prep high school education, even if it's watered down.  Sooo many of my high school students could do well in trades classes, but they see them as "beneath them" -- they're going to be lawyers, nurses, business professionals in spite of their substandard GPAs and lack of interest in education. 

kinetic

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Re: Hunting for deals and buying in bulk is a rich person's privilege
« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2016, 04:21:05 PM »
 
As a college student, I realized I could do better than my family of origin -- and I have.
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i've wondered before why the cycle was broken with my generation.  my mother came from a family of nine siblings.  only one has finished anything resembling a degree, a slot repair certificate, and most of them have died of lifestyle diseases. she lived with an american foster family for a few years.  they're the ones who made a difference in her life and emphasized education.  she always wanted to go to college but couldn't due to finances or her inability to focus/follow through (working 2 jobs and raising children at the same time will do this to you).  so she passed that ambition on to her children and now the two of us are college graduates with five degrees between us.

so education is key.  i do agree with Mrs Pete -- traditional college degrees are not for everyone and there are some kids (and adults) who try to go after them, not out of interest or skill but in pursuit of a certain lifestyle.  that is fine, too, but not everyone is cut out to be a doctor, lawyer, dentist, etc. 

and you would not believe the level of entitlement university students have.