Author Topic: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?  (Read 23670 times)

mining_melancholy

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How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« on: November 01, 2014, 08:17:35 AM »
I'm sure this has come up plenty, but I decided to bring some of my own numbers to the field.

Let's say you're just starting out. You have hit the street with a balance of zero (no savings and no debt) and this is year one of the ten years you're going to work to build up your retirement. One question keeps coming up: "What's the bare minimum I have to be paid to meet my expenses and then save enough to retire in ten years?" After all, maybe this early retirement thing is the rich man's game, not applicable in those parts of the country where the people can barely read and the jobs are just enough to die on.

60K? 80K? Nah, more like 100k, right?

How about $31,444.64? That's what I got as my baseline and I think it's a pretty decent figure that can apply to most in my situation. And a flexible one.

Let's look at the numbers. What are the expenses we're looking at here? I derived my expenses from my personal budget (which does not include mortgage as I'm living with someone) and estimates stolen from other sources (including MMM). My baseline expenses are: $7,861.16. See the end of the post for the breakdown.

Now there's wiggle room there, but in both directions. First off, mortgage is NOT included in that figure, as I stated earlier. We'll cover that later. Second, it's based on living in a pretty wretched part of the country that has low costs and low enjoyability. So costs may be higher where you are or lower cost alternatives may be more plentiful (it's very difficult to save money when Craigslist barely exists out here). Third, I'm single, so this is a bachelorette/bachelor's number, not a family's. However, it's not all doom and gloom: there's plenty of fat that can be trimmed too for the enterprising or the lucky as the number includes personal medical expenses.

But we'll go with a baseline of $7,861.16. For this to be 25% of your earnings, you need to rake in $31,444.64. Doing so leaves you with a nice $23,583.48 to do with what you see fit. Since we're ignoring mortgage, let's just throw that into the calculator. 10 years at 7%...

$325,839.92

"Huh. That's a far cry from the 600k MMM talks about!" Look at those expenses again. For that baseline of expenses, that's only... 2.4% of your $325,839.92. Almost half of the 4% ole' MMM suggests!

"Wait, haven't we been ignoring mortgage all this time?" Well damn, you're right. So, let's take a look at what happens if we throw mortgage in.

Our baseline is $7,861.16. Let's say you want an $80,000 house (standard in my area but a little pricey for one person, so if you're like me, you'll look to cut that boy in half!) and you've only got (like me at the moment) $10k to put down on it (I know I said no savings, but we'll cheat for the sake of this example). What's that going to add to your expenses if you want to pay it off in 10 years so that it's done when you retire?

$825.79 a month or $9,909.48 a year. Which brings your expenses up to $17,770.64. Now, that's 25% of $71,082.56, so you may be thinking, "Yikes! That's a lot more upper class than 31k!" Certainly... if you're going to count your home as an expense. After all, in 10 years, that home'll be your's, free and clear. It's not something you plan to consume like a turkey sandwich. So, in 10 years, when you retire, that mortgage payment is gone.

But what have you got in the nest egg?

$17,770.64 expenses leaves $13,674 of your 31k income. Invested for 10 years at 7% it yields... $188,926.11. "Oh no! Now my retirement is cut almost totally in half!" Don't despair friend. Look at the numbers. Your mortgage? She be gone. Your expenses are now, free and clear, a cool $7,861.16. Which is only 4.2% of that $188,926.11.

4.2%? That's totally doable! And now you have a house that's all your's. You have a decade of good habits from living the high life without paying the high cotton. You're ready to retire. If you need more coin, you don't have to answer to any boss. You just scoop a part time job or self-employment up or you tighten the belt a little to knock that 4.2 down to a 4 or a 3.5.

What do you think? Can you make it on $31,444.64? Is it too low a figure? Hell, is it too high? Tell me what you think!

The Break Down
Here's the expenses used to get $7,861.16.
Car: 794
Food: 3,855
Gas: 777
Health: 360
Insurance: 785.16
Utilities: 1,290
Total: 7,861.16

For mortgage, I assumed an 80K piece of property with a loan of 70k (again, just basing it on my own situation: I only have, at most, 10k I could drop on a house), for a period of 10 year with an interest rate of 5%, 1.25% property tax, 0.5% PMI.

Since I did cheat a bit with the mortgage (assuming savings instead of zero savings), I went back and crunched the numbers on a zero down payment loan for an 80k piece of property. First of, let me add, if you have zero payment and you're alone... try not to go with 80k. You can probably do better at least until you get a downpayment spruced up. Anyway:

80k loan at the same rates for 10 years
$931.86 per month.
$11,182.32 per year.
Combined with the $7,861.16 it gives us a total expense of: $19,043.48.
That leaves us with $12,401.16 per year.
Saved for 10 years at 7% gives us $171,339.98.
Our $7,861.16 expenses are 4.6% of our retirement.
So, even with NO downpayment, still doable.

If I screwed up the math anywhere please let me know. This was actually a trial-by-fire exercise to figure out how to calculate mortgage costs, so you'll be doing both me and the reader a favor.

Taxes
Having completely forget taxes, upon being reminded I did some crunching to figure out what this would be BEFORE taxes were taken out. Note: figuring out taxes from net pay is a bit confusing. However, what I found was that a gross pay of $39,700.44 works for withholding in my state. Depending on your state, it will be different. Now, I have no exemptions or dependents. That will change things too.

In other words: if you can get a 40k a year job, you can make it!
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 11:16:56 AM by mining_melancholy »

arebelspy

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2014, 09:21:58 AM »
I love it.  I think it's totally doable, and badass.

I'd also suggest you look for side income, especially if you very much enjoy your job so you're okay with that low base pay.  If you can save 100% of that side-income you can end up with more (and lower your WR and/or leave room for emergencies - 7.8k annual budget, even with a paid off house, is pretty slim - especially because your property taxes and insurance will take up about 1300-1500 of that.. and one car repair, medical problem, etc. can add 50% or more to your annual budget) or be done earlier.

The overall concept is solid though - there's no arguing with the math of living on X% to save (100-X%), and keeping X low.  With low income (31k annual) one has to have very low expenses, but if you can do that, you're rocking it!
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mining_melancholy

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2014, 09:42:56 AM »
Thanks arebelspy!

I agree 7.8k is slim. I let a few of my estimates (car-related for example) bloat to provide some fat that could be trimmed and some leeway for expenses I did not account for (such as emergency cash, travel, gifts, etc.). But I'm also assuming some pretty favorable conditions. For my personal tastes, I think this, supplemented with a part time job I enjoy, would be the perfect retirement.

One thing I like about having that baseline is that it gives me a nice psychological boost when I'm bummed about the job market. Anytime I start thinking, "Oh, no one's going to hire me for a 60k job! I'll be lucky to get 40k!" I remind myself "And all you NEED is 31k. At 40, that gives you a whole 9000 to play with! How awesome is that?" Having that set baseline reminds me of the divide between "imperative" and "ideal."

NoraLenderbee

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2014, 09:50:26 AM »
Nice! Don't forget taxes while you're working. You'll need 31K after income tax, FICA, etc.

mining_melancholy

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2014, 10:36:25 AM »
Oh, a very good point NoraLenderbee, and one not accounted for in my original post. Let me just find a gross pay calculator....

Using my situation, it pushes the price up to $39,700.44

But, I have no exemptions or dependents. Others may not be hit so hard. So, make sure to give your numbers a crunch before despairing of retiring on low pay!

Thanks fartface! (I don't get to type that often.) I agree. I think a lot of people underestimate how capable they are of standing on their own feet. That's part of the reason why I wanted to put this together. Most of my neighbors are extremely poor and uneducated and having to rely on jobs that pay only what the government makes them pay. Most of them live under a constant angst of "I just wasn't born lucky so I can't do anything about it." I hate that attitude! It's not going to help you any and it only perpetuates your situation. So I wanted to find an nice, real number to put on financial independence so I can say, "Look, if you can reach THIS you have no excuses!"
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 11:41:24 AM by mining_melancholy »

secondcor521

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2014, 11:06:42 AM »
A few points of feedback:

1.  There's nothing in the budget for clothes.  Although clothes can be practically free at thrift stores, hand-me-downs, etc.

2.  Saving 75% of your pay gets you to retirement in 7 years, not 10.  See MMM's article.

3.  I personally would be a little nervous retiring in my 30's on a 4.2% withdrawal rate.  Although I'm personally looking at a 3.5% withdrawal rate at age 47, which I'm sure some others would think is nuts.

4.  You're accounting for inflation, I'm guessing, by using a 7% real rate of return on investments and thus 0% on your expenses.  Surprisingly, I think the math works out a little different (and slightly worse) using a 10% nominal rate of return on investments and 3% inflation rate on expenses.  Double check me on that, though.

5.  It is super excellent from a retire early perspective to earn a good salary in a low cost of living area.  I believe your numbers because it sounds like you've researched them, but not very many people will be able to make ~$60K per year in a place where $80K buys a decent home.  Although there are definitely many places where it is possible.  High-tech workers can do this more and more by telecommuting.  I have a neighbor who works for a company in California and gets paid California-level wages, but lives here in Idaho and pays Idaho-level prices for housing, taxes, and so forth.

Kudos to you for thinking carefully about it and doing the math.  You're way ahead of most people.

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2014, 11:07:56 AM »
Oh, a very good point NoraLenderbee, and one not accounted for in my original post. Let me just find a gross pay calculator....

Sadly, crunching that sort of knocks the wind from the sails. Using my situation, it pushes the price up to $61,611.70. Not awful, but a bit out of reach for a lot of people in my area.


I don't think it would even have to be that high. Assuming you need to take home $31,444.64, figuring a federal tax rate of 10%, state of 5%, FICA of 8%....let's bump it up and assume an effective total tax rate of 25%...you'd need $41,926.18. So I think you are on the right track. If you can maintain your low level of expenses, and some of your savings is 401k/traditional IRA and reducing your taxable income...I think it's totally do-able. Even if it takes 15 years, that's still plenty early retirement.

mining_melancholy

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2014, 11:33:20 AM »
Jessa,

Yeah, I went back and recrunched and found out that, a. I apparently do not know how to use online calculators and b. the number for my state is closer to 39k. So, for my state, if you're earning around 40k, that should be enough. Extra will be just that: extra, straw for the nest. And I agree. Even with a few extra years attached, you're looking at only ten to fifteen years, not twenty five to thirty. Thanks for calling me on that!

secondcor521,

Thanks for the feedback! You made some real good points.

1. Yes, as I said, the budget is rough and meant to create a flexible baseline between imperative and ideal. Of course, some articles will need to be paid for (after all, if I need a new stove, I'll need to pay for it; probably won't be able to just inherit it). I just wanted a barebones minimum.

2. Oh. I was incorrect then. Could you link the article? I'll reread and see if I need to adjust anything.

3. Your worry isn't unfounded. For my own opinion, this is a situation that, if I were facing ten years on, I'd probably choose to keep working if I didn't hate my job. But, at least with this knowledge, I know I have more freedom and choice. I can take more risks if I don't like my current job situation. My job won't own me. Plus, and I really should have thought about this in the original post, this is assuming pay does not increase in those ten years. If your a good worker and a proactive person, odds are you'll find some way to ferret out a raise in a decade.

4. Hmm. Good point. I ran a 7% real rate, not a 10/3. I'll give it a look and see what changes. Edit: I ran the numbers for the 80k loan with zero down scenario (sort of a worst case of the three). What I got was $161,771.08 after inflation adjustment. Of that, you'd need 4.9% to reach the yearly expense of 7.8k. As you said, a bit worse. Still in the range of doable. Again, this is a situation that, for my tastes, I'd let roll for more full time work in order to build up a nice, secure egg. However, by 10 years, I'd have bought myself the security of knowing I'm no longer totally dependent on the umbilical cord of the paycheck. Or, at least, that I have more independence to say 'yay' or 'nay' to which paychecks I want.

5. Honestly, for me, assuming I don't move, I'm hoping to get a 40k home. In this region, that's a solid price for a solid piece of real estate. Really, the only thing at a premium is real estate within biking distance of stores (and stores worth going to in general XD). As Jessa pointed out, 60k turned out a little high. 40k is a bit more on the money. Roughly. Again, this is very rough.

Thanks! Having the math there to see makes the whole thing real. As I said in one of my earlier posts, I hate that sense of "this is just the way things are." When you break out the math and run the numbers, you can say, "No. Here is what you have, and THIS is the way things can be changed!"
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 11:48:18 AM by mining_melancholy »

Jags4186

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2014, 02:59:19 PM »
If you want to retire on 8k/yr this is great. For the rest of us who would like to actually do something this would be a problem. Let me know how it goes when you need a new car or a new roof!

mining_melancholy

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2014, 03:15:16 PM »
Will do Jags4186! Thanks.

And, again, this is not about what I (or anyone) is WANTING to do. This is about determining just what CAN be done.

chicagomeg

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2014, 03:21:06 PM »
If you want to retire on 8k/yr this is great. For the rest of us who would like to actually do something this would be a problem. Let me know how it goes when you need a new car or a new roof!

Wow, way to be a jerk.

OP, I think this is awesome and very encouraging! Its all about priorities. And, as my stash approaches your 180k number, a reminder that being FI on some level at least is coming close!!

rocketpj

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2014, 03:26:33 PM »
The only house I could buy for $80k in this neck of the woods would likely be on fire at the time of purchase, possibly while also hosting a meth lab in a neighbourhood that was quarantined for Ebola and the site of a raging gang war.  And even then it might be a stretch and I'd probably end up in a bidding war.

I know, the obvious answer is to change where I live.  I've done it before, why not do it again?  I agree - but life is choices.

If you can successfully live on $8k/year then you are in great shape and will succeed regardless.  That doesn't leave you a lot of resilience for potential economic upheavals in the future though - not to mention health or other issues that might come up.

arebelspy

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2014, 03:30:43 PM »
One suggestion for the OP: check out ERE (both the blog and book) and the associated forums - many there live on around that 8k budget, so you'll hear less naysayers and see more potentially useful ideas.  :)
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
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EastCoastMike

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2014, 03:34:14 PM »
The only house I could buy for $80k in this neck of the woods would likely be on fire at the time of purchase, possibly while also hosting a meth lab in a neighbourhood that was quarantined for Ebola and the site of a raging gang war.  And even then it might be a stretch and I'd probably end up in a bidding war.

The property would have to be sitting in the middle of an EPA Superfund site as well.  Or just as good... have an undisclosed high-pressure natural gas easement near the house, just waiting to get struck by a backhoe.

Jags4186

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How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2014, 03:39:26 PM »
I'm not a naysayer I'm realistic. The 8k a year budgets are NOT prudent. I don't care if ERE guy lives on 8k a year with a 200k stasche. $360/yr for health (where?)?  I'm assuming a high deductible plan?  So you can't get sick or hurt according to this plan.  You can't even meet the deductible on ANY of your insurances. You have NO wiggle room.

I'm a big fan of optimism, but the prudent plan is to plan for the worst and hope for the best. If your trying to live incredibly cheaply it's likely better to rent than own because at least that takes out unpredictable expenses.

And quite frankly, living on 8k a year means you'll be living off the dole (healthcare subsidies at the minimum) and that just doesn't fly with me. Getting government subsidies is for people who are low income workers not for people who want to live some crazy extremely frugal lifestyle.

BPA

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2014, 03:58:50 PM »
I'm not a naysayer I'm realistic. The 8k a year budgets are NOT prudent. I don't care if ERE guy lives on 8k a year with a 200k stasche. $360/yr for health (where?)?  I'm assuming a high deductible plan?  So you can't get sick or hurt according to this plan.  You can't even meet the deductible on ANY of your insurances. You have NO wiggle room.

I'm a big fan of optimism, but the prudent plan is to plan for the worst and hope for the best. If your trying to live incredibly cheaply it's likely better to rent than own because at least that takes out unpredictable expenses.

And quite frankly, living on 8k a year means you'll be living off the dole (healthcare subsidies at the minimum) and that just doesn't fly with me. Getting government subsidies is for people who are low income workers not for people who want to live some crazy extremely frugal lifestyle.

Just because you think it can't be done, doesn't mean it can't be done. 

This community is full of people who have done or are doing it without relying on government subsidies.  http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/

I plan to retire on a budget of $12k/year in a country that is more expensive than the US.  My priorities are likely different than yours and that's okay with me. 


Jags4186

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2014, 04:02:56 PM »
No where did I say it couldn't be done. I said it wasn't prudent. Everyone makes choices. I hope people who think this is a smart one are extremely lucky and enjoy the rustic lifestyle.  If you have 600k in the bank and want to live an 8k lifestyle go for it!  No problem there. It's the people who live the 8k lifestyle on 180k in the bank and when something happen they will have their hand out. No thank you.

BPA

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2014, 04:09:32 PM »
No where did I say it couldn't be done. I said it wasn't prudent. Everyone makes choices. I hope people who think this is a smart one are extremely lucky and enjoy the rustic lifestyle.  If you have 600k in the bank and want to live an 8k lifestyle go for it!  No problem there. It's the people who live the 8k lifestyle on 180k in the bank and when something happen they will have their hand out. No thank you.

Nowhere did the OP say that he/she was looking for a handout.  Anyone I've known who has made the decision to FIRE in this manner plans to find a job in the future if necessary.  Imagine how many people made similar comments about MMM when he first FIREd.

You are making a lot of unfair assumptions about the OP. 

bacchi

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2014, 04:11:52 PM »
I'm not a naysayer I'm realistic. The 8k a year budgets are NOT prudent.

Yes, these plans are doomed unless there's more paid work in the future.

1) Car depreciation? Is that the $796/year? If so, where's the maintenance and car insurance? Even pulling the front-end off yourself to replace the timing belt and water pump is going to cost several hundred in parts.
2) House depreciation? How will you pay for paint or a plumbing leak or a water heater or a new roof? What about the new fridge? You'll need fire insurance, too, for that house.
3) Jags already addressed health care.

Look, if I pull out all of my depreciating costs, I only spent ~$24,000 last year and $12,000 of that was for the house PITI. A few years ago, I had a new roof installed for $7000. This year, my 20 year old water heater is getting replaced. Should I base my ER budget on last year's $22,000 or this year's $23,000? Or maybe it's really $29,000, when the roof was replaced?

People get stuck in the calendar year budget mode of thinking. That only works if all of your needs and possessions reset on December 31st.

Zamboni

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2014, 04:30:54 PM »
Well done on thinking through some numbers, OP!

I have a good friend who has been living on ~$6K/year for about a decade.  He paid off his small house super quickly years ago when he made more money, and does all of the home maintenance himself, which he enjoys.  Does he eat out?  Never.  I invited him out for his birthday and he said it was the only meal he'd had in a restaurant all year. Sadly the food we got wasn't even that great.  Does he travel?  Only driving trips to see his Mom.  He doesn't want to travel after spending some of his young life sailing the high seas (not in the navy, though, so no military pension.)  But he does everything he loves to do and wants to do.  He is living the good life.  There are plenty of people who live on less.

Jags, why in the heck would anyone need a "new" car?  I'll certainly never need one of those.  And bacchi, why would OP need a "new" fridge?  I bought my current very lovely and "nearly new" full size fridge/freezer 3 years ago off of Craigslist for $150.  Luxurious to be sure, and hardly a budget breaker.  I've even lived (briefly) without a hot water heater; not as horrible as you would think.  When I wanted a hot bath, I just heated a couple of pots of hot water on the stove.  Seriously.  How DID people get by for thousands and thousands of years without a hot water heater??!!

bacchi

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2014, 04:53:04 PM »
And bacchi, why would OP need a "new" fridge?  I bought my current very lovely and "nearly new" full size fridge/freezer 3 years ago off of Craigslist for $150.  Luxurious to be sure, and hardly a budget breaker.

New fridge, used fridge, whatever. The point is that a bare-bones budget that has no allowances for depreciating assets is dangerous and/or will require more paid work in the future.

Quote
  I've even lived (briefly) without a hot water heater; not as horrible as you would think.  When I wanted a hot bath, I just heated a couple of pots of hot water on the stove.  Seriously.  How DID people get by for thousands and thousands of years without a hot water heater??!!

The OP can also go live like Daniel Suelo on $0/year. How DID people get by for tens of thousands of years without a man-made roof and walls??!!

We make assumptions on basic living requirements -- oven, fridge, some kind of climate control (stove, furnace, a/c, fan, whatever). If the OP plans to live without a fridge, or plans to chop their own wood for heat and cooking, or plans to not use electricity, then presumably that would be included in the original post.

Jags4186

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2014, 05:20:57 PM »
Zamboni, "new" car means new to you. Say a lightly used car that is well maintained has a lifespan of 20 years. If you buy that car at 10 years old that means you are buying a circa 10 year old car every 10 years. A 10 year old well maintained Corolla costs about 4-5k. Okay let's go crazy and say a car can last 30 years!  Quick scan of auto trader says you can get a 20 year old Corolla with 200k miles for about $1800!  $1800 is 20+% of your yearly budget.  Where's that coming from?

Zikoris

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2014, 05:36:07 PM »
Since when is 8K/year outrageously bare bones anyway? I spend about $13K/year myself, but that includes my hobby of international travel to all sorts of exotic destinations. It's about 8-9K/year in living expenses, and that's for what I consider a ridiculously comfortable lifestyle in one of the most expensive cities around (Vancouver).

I make about 37K right now and my forecasts indicate no problem retiring early.

BPA

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2014, 05:44:28 PM »
Since when is 8K/year outrageously bare bones anyway?

I suspect it started when MMM started getting more mainstream media exposure.  That didn't happen at ERE and so there are never any doubters over there. 

Jags4186

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2014, 06:04:26 PM »
You all completely miss the point. I don't care if you can live on $50/yr. By limiting yourself to such a low budget and having no wiggle room you leave yourself open to catastrophe.  An 8k a year budget where all the money is already spoken for leaves you no room for problems. You couldn't even afford your deductibles on your insurance.

It's silly to continue arguing about this. You'll never convince me that 8k a year is "living the good life". Heck you'll never convince me that 8k a year is an awful but sustainable life. I don't believe it is sustainable for the long term.

arebelspy

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2014, 06:12:16 PM »

It's silly to continue arguing about this. You'll never convince me that 8k a year is "living the good life".

We are trying to convince you. You're the one posting on their  thread.

Nevertheless, I agree with some of the arguments you and bacchi made. I don't agree with how you posted them.

Presenting a "here's some stuff to think about/consider" is friendly and helpful. Being negative, saying flat out it won't work, etc. is just rude and alienates people.

There's a good way to prepare to FIRE the way the OP wants, while taking into account your concerns (having set asides for replacements/deductibles/etc.), and it's worth considering.

Just maybe not in an argumentative way where you take the stance that other posters have to convince you, rather than you just offering them some helpful thoughts. :)
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Jags4186

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How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2014, 06:17:27 PM »

It's silly to continue arguing about this. You'll never convince me that 8k a year is "living the good life".

We are trying to convince you. You're the one posting on their  thread.

Nevertheless, I agree with some of the arguments you and bacchi made. I don't agree with how you posted them.

Presenting a "here's some stuff to think about/consider" is friendly and helpful. Being negative, saying flat out it won't work, etc. is just rude and alienates people.

There's a good way to prepare to FIRE the way the OP wants, while taking into account your concerns (having set asides for replacements/deductibles/etc.), and it's worth considering.

Just maybe not in an argumentative way where you take the stance that other posters have to convince you, rather than you just offering them some helpful thoughts. :)

You're right I probably shouldn't have been so negative. It just drives me nuts when people mention ERE. Like I'm supposed to be impressed with people who post about best way to optimize showering habits so they can spend $0.57/month less on the water bill. 

I think it is extremely dangerous to think you could survive multiple decades on such a low budget--one that maxes out your withdrawal rate--hence why I take an aggressive stance.

That's why I think if you want to live on 8k but have 500k in the bank that's great! Go for it!  But if 8k is 4% you are setting yourself up for disaster.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 06:19:09 PM by Jags4186 »

Zikoris

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2014, 06:18:13 PM »
You all completely miss the point. I don't care if you can live on $50/yr. By limiting yourself to such a low budget and having no wiggle room you leave yourself open to catastrophe.  An 8k a year budget where all the money is already spoken for leaves you no room for problems. You couldn't even afford your deductibles on your insurance.

It's silly to continue arguing about this. You'll never convince me that 8k a year is "living the good life". Heck you'll never convince me that 8k a year is an awful but sustainable life. I don't believe it is sustainable for the long term.

Well, for reference here's what an 8K-9K budget gets you in Vancouver:

- A nice apartment in a housing co-operative in the downtown core, walking and biking distance to everything, including work
- Bus tickets and bike expenses for the few places you can't walk to
- Two to four "pay" events per month - movies, concerts, symphonies, opera, etc
- All the hiking and beach trips you want
- Whatever ingredients you want to make your favourite foods
- All the essentials - insurance, phone, internet, laundry, clothing, toiletries, household things
- One or two more expensive adventures every year, like paragliding
- A few non-crazy hobbies (for us this includes dance lessons and events for me and video games for him, and also occasional eBook purchases when something's not available from the library)

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2014, 06:25:44 PM »

It's silly to continue arguing about this. You'll never convince me that 8k a year is "living the good life".

We are trying to convince you. You're the one posting on their  thread.

Nevertheless, I agree with some of the arguments you and bacchi made. I don't agree with how you posted them.

Presenting a "here's some stuff to think about/consider" is friendly and helpful. Being negative, saying flat out it won't work, etc. is just rude and alienates people.

There's a good way to prepare to FIRE the way the OP wants, while taking into account your concerns (having set asides for replacements/deductibles/etc.), and it's worth considering.

Just maybe not in an argumentative way where you take the stance that other posters have to convince you, rather than you just offering them some helpful thoughts. :)

You're right I probably shouldn't have been so negative. It just drives me nuts when people mention ERE. Like I'm supposed to be impressed with people who post about best way to optimize showering habits so they can spend $0.57/month less on the water bill. 

I think it is extremely dangerous to think you could survive multiple decades on such a low budget--one that maxes out your withdrawal rate--hence why I take an aggressive stance.

That's why I think if you want to live on 8k but have 500k in the bank that's great! Go for it!  But if 8k is 4% you are setting yourself up for disaster.

I mentioned ERE for the OP's sake, not yours.  Maybe the OP is fine with that. 

You don't like ERE?  Guess what?  None of this thread was about you. 

(Now I've got You're So Vain earworm.)

Daisy

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2014, 06:26:11 PM »

It's silly to continue arguing about this. You'll never convince me that 8k a year is "living the good life".

We are trying to convince you. You're the one posting on their  thread.

Nevertheless, I agree with some of the arguments you and bacchi made. I don't agree with how you posted them.

Presenting a "here's some stuff to think about/consider" is friendly and helpful. Being negative, saying flat out it won't work, etc. is just rude and alienates people.

There's a good way to prepare to FIRE the way the OP wants, while taking into account your concerns (having set asides for replacements/deductibles/etc.), and it's worth considering.

Just maybe not in an argumentative way where you take the stance that other posters have to convince you, rather than you just offering them some helpful thoughts. :)

You're right I probably shouldn't have been so negative. It just drives me nuts when people mention ERE. Like I'm supposed to be impressed with people who post about best way to optimize showering habits so they can spend $0.57/month less on the water bill. 

I think it is extremely dangerous to think you could survive multiple decades on such a low budget--one that maxes out your withdrawal rate--hence why I take an aggressive stance.

That's why I think if you want to live on 8k but have 500k in the bank that's great! Go for it!  But if 8k is 4% you are setting yourself up for disaster.

I'm not sure about the tone in the detractors' posts, but I do agree that a lot of these bare bones budgets don't include any safety margins. Sure, while you're young and your car is new you may not see these future expenses, but they will happen. Plus, markets can be unpredictable in the short term. I strongly believe in these safety margins. But I am a 45 year old maybe one or two years away from FIRE and super cautious. I just know that once I leave my current job, I don't want to go back into the industry and may not even have the option as being a 40ish year old is ancient in the tech world. So I need me some safety before I pull the plug.

People on these boards often state certain things are "unexpected expenses", when they are really not unexpected but rather irregular expenses. They need to be added to the yearly budget somehow to be realistic.

But there are different lifestyles out there and different things people are willing to do, such as Jacob at ERE living in an RV and stuff. I just don't see that as my lifestyle, even though it is a perfectly good option for others.

As Jag says though, you need to be careful with a 4% SWR @ $8k/year because there isn't much wiggle room if something goes wrong. As long as you know you may have to go back to work, which is easier for a young person, then you know the risks you are taking.

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2014, 06:35:03 PM »
Sounds pretty posh to me, Zikoris.

It seems that there is actually quite a bit of wiggle room in the OP's budget.  For one thing the food budget is quite high.

But the complainypants retirement police are having a fit bc op might have all sort of expenses that, let's face it, many people in the world don't even consider as necessary.  I'm with arebelspy here, a lot of the problem with the objections is in the tone.  "have you thought about the fact that you might want to have . . . " is a lot different than what has been presented here, which have been more of less statements that the OP's first pass at the numbers leads to a situation so terrible as to be impossible and inconceivable.  As I know someone who lives quite happily and successfully on 75% of what the OP proposes, the vigor of the objections seems like a little much.

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2014, 06:52:56 PM »
Here's some perspective from the OTHER end of the income spectrum.

My wife and I averaged about 200k gross income (probably 240k in the last 2 years) for a period of ten years - combined with some ungodly Vancouver real estate appreciation (have yet to have housing correction, U.S. style) and some bold investments made near stock market bottom lows in 2009 have allowed us to be FIRE'd with a net worth of over 2M at age 42.

But the real key to doing this was not "living up to" our income, and instead living a lifestyle that might have suggested we made 50k, rather than the actual 200k. We saved the VAST MAJORITY of the income we made. People that knew roughly what our actual income was seemed a bit confused by the lifestyle we lived. When I announced I was done working at 42 (a few months ago) there was kind of a collective "aha!" moment expressed by these same folks. I really think it gave some serious food for thought for the high earners, high spenders group that comprised many of my family and friends.

If one wants to retire early, high income is a gift NOT TO BE SQUANDERED. And we didn't.  Despite the odd pangs of envy directed at the "Joneses" along the way, we are thankful we chose that path.

arebelspy

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2014, 06:55:06 PM »


It's silly to continue arguing about this. You'll never convince me that 8k a year is "living the good life".

We are trying to convince you. You're the one posting on their  thread.

Nevertheless, I agree with some of the arguments you and bacchi made. I don't agree with how you posted them.

Presenting a "here's some stuff to think about/consider" is friendly and helpful. Being negative, saying flat out it won't work, etc. is just rude and alienates people.

There's a good way to prepare to FIRE the way the OP wants, while taking into account your concerns (having set asides for replacements/deductibles/etc.), and it's worth considering.

Just maybe not in an argumentative way where you take the stance that other posters have to convince you, rather than you just offering them some helpful thoughts. :)

You're right I probably shouldn't have been so negative. It just drives me nuts when people mention ERE. Like I'm supposed to be impressed with people who post about best way to optimize showering habits so they can spend $0.57/month less on the water bill. 

I think it is extremely dangerous to think you could survive multiple decades on such a low budget--one that maxes out your withdrawal rate--hence why I take an aggressive stance.

That's why I think if you want to live on 8k but have 500k in the bank that's great! Go for it!  But if 8k is 4% you are setting yourself up for disaster.

I agree.

For those that mention the wiggle room, it's true there may be some fat in the OP's budget, so maybe (s)he could cut a solid 10-20% easily in a "bad" year. But 10-20% on such a low budget is only like $1000.

What happens when you have a 4k emergency?  Or 8k deductible?  That's a whole year's budget!

God forbid a 50k medical issue eating up 1/3 of their stache.

Someone with 700k can much more easily weather that than someone with 150k, even if the person with 700 and the person with 150 are both initially living on the same SWR.

You'll want to assume something will go wrong in a 30 or 40 year time period and plan accordingly.

The overall message of the OP though, that FIRE can be achieved, even if you have a low salary, is valid though.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
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mining_melancholy

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2014, 07:20:42 PM »
Woah. Thanks for the very passionate conversation everyone! You've all certainly given me a lot to think about.

As has been pointed by several, I'm not advocating this set up as a golden retirement: a no-worries, money's-in-the-bank sort of thing. All I wanted was to find (for me and my situation) the bottom rung on the ladder. The lowest level that I can call "doable" that garners no debt. 8k a year from a 150k egg may not be the safest ship to sail in, but it can be done. It can hold you while you work a job you actually love or take the risk of moving to a location you've always wanted to live in. It, alone, may not hold up against a car crash or lung cancer, but it can be a tool to get you somewhere that can.

I also wanted to give others in the same situation an idea of how to find their bottom rung (or "starting rung" I should say). In my area, there's a lot of people who have no hope of going past 40k before they hit 65. So I wanted to find out what the absolute threshold is where they can say, maybe not "I won't have to work another day in my life!" but at least "I'm not dependent on this paycheck alone to live."

Certainly, it's my very fond hope to have a 60 or 70 or 80k job. But I'm also trying to plan for "What if I don't? What if I make only 40k for the rest of my life and my employer never gives me a raise and I never find a better place? Can I still earn independence, even in a worst case as that?" I think so. It's harder, yes, and it's not the golden retirement of the free-and-clear. BUT! It is financial independence. It's enough independence to be able to say, "I don't like this job. I can afford to find another one." It's enough that I don't have to say, "It is this job, this paycheck, this place and time, or I die."

Once I know where that threshold is, every single step above it is one I make on my own power and can enjoy to its fullest. Because I owe it to no man.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 07:22:23 PM by mining_melancholy »

MrsPete

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2014, 07:47:37 PM »
Y'all are hating hard on this thread, but the idea of being cautious and allowing yourself a barrier, a safety margin is a wise one.  Without hating anyone (except maybe those of you who use pronouns incorrectly), here are my thoughts: 

Yes, the numbers show that a bare-bones retirement is possible on this salary.  But is it a smart choice?  You're looking at just getting to "Yes, it's possible".  Personally, I want to do more than that:  I want to reach "Yes, this is comfortable and safe".  It's easier to keep the job you already have than to try to jump back into the work world after a decade or so out of retirement. 

A story:  I'm thinking about my great grandmother, who retired with a generous amount of cash, which she turned over to her dutiful only son.  For years, she was fine, and he paid the bills for her to live in a nice retirement community; he spent only her interest -- never touched her principle.  Then came the 1970s and serious inflation, and he had to start drawing out of her principle.  She lived into her early 90s, and at the end he was paying out of his own pocket -- she started with more money than she thought she could ever use, and she died dead broke.  I don't want to repeat that mistake; I don't want my children to have to pay for my needs. 

Back to the OP:  I think the easiest thing to "give" on is timeline.  Perhaps this is the salary the OP is capable of earning in his area.  Working only 10 years is still a very short timeframe. Make it 15 -- still considerably fewer years than the average person works -- and leave with a comfortable nest egg and fewer worries for your lengthy retirement years.  Another poster mentioned things that could throw off your plans:  Yes, at some point you'll need a car, a roof, or something else expensive.  My husband spent one night in the hospital, and with our high-deductible insurance plan, it was something like 8K out of pocket.   

Another option:  The OP described his area in rather miserable terms.  Why stay?  Go somewhere else where wages may be higher -- of course, that almost always means spending more to live. 

Something to consider:  The OP is single now, but he may not remain single.  That could change everything. 

arebelspy

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2014, 09:29:52 PM »

All I wanted was to find (for me and my situation) the bottom rung on the ladder. The lowest level that I can call "doable" that garners no debt. 8k a year from a 150k egg may not be the safest ship to sail in, but it can be done. It can hold you while you work a job you actually love or take the risk of moving to a location you've always wanted to live in. It, alone, may not hold up against a car crash or lung cancer, but it can be a tool to get you somewhere that can.

...

It is financial independence. It's enough independence to be able to say, "I don't like this job. I can afford to find another one."

Great way to look at it. I think that's a level everyone should get to.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

secondcor521

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2014, 09:52:56 PM »
OP, the article I was mentioning is here:

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/

Scroll down past the graph to the table.

To the person who mentioned asset depreciation - asset depreciation is not a big deal for people with low assets.  I haven't had to account for car depreciation for about five years now.  Currently I drive a 23 year old car that is only worth about $2K.  My previous car actually appreciated some years.

Similarly with maintenance costs.  I think 1% per year is a rule of thumb that some use to budget for home maintenance.  On a $40K home, that's only $400 a year.

Also, an $1800 car purchase would only occur every 10 years, which is $180 per year.  Not really that much.  Also, a 30 year old Toyota Corolla with 300K miles can probably be sold for $500 if it's still running.  So that brings it down to $130 per year, or about $11 per month.  Not really a budget buster.

I do agree overall that having margin is a very smart idea.  How much is enough margin is a pretty individualized question, depending on the person's facts and circumstances, goals, risk tolerance, other options, etc.


Vilgan

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2014, 09:57:41 PM »
I think that having a bottom "I don't like this job, I can afford to find another one" is a great place to be at. Imo, however, it doesn't have a lot to do with FI. Why wait years for what you can do sooner?

Build up an emergency fund. Have a buffer to feel safe for 6 months in a year or two, look around, feel comfortable taking a leap, and start your life now. I realize you haven't suggested that you are going to wait until you have 150k to look around or anything, but in general it just feels like a very different concept. Invest in yourself now, take steps now, worry about FIRE once you are where you want to be.

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2014, 11:05:04 PM »
Kudos, OP. It sounds like your motivation is 1) to bring up your own morale and 2) altruistic, ie helping others to keep up theirs with hope for their future.

When you live in an area with lack of access to good jobs, to the resources many of us take for granted, these RE articles and profiles posted for the middle class seem impossible to attain. OP has put together a scenario where it could work for others even in his low COL (and low salary ceiling) area. It's a start to motivating others.

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2014, 12:31:36 PM »
I am pretty much on those figures - $500 p/m ($100 of it unbudgeted) with around $180K in shares - I do not touch the capital just live of the dividends. And as dividends generally increase at a higher rate .vs inflation my lifestyle should get better going forward. That said, I am only two months in and yes, a large expense could knock me.  My wife pays the other half of the bills. House is paid off and I do not have medical aid and I still contribute $50 to a small RA. I do live in South Africa - and certain living expenses are cheaper, but not others. Similar to one of the cheaper areas in the States it seems.

I though do plan to make money from a hobby or two. Nothing serious, but some holiday cash. Not only that, I think little jobs here and there will just pop up - spent a few hours putting up shelves for $50 the other day. I've also started a veg garden, so should save a bit of food at some point.

What I am trying to say is that as long as you allocated income cover all fixed expenses you probably fine as long as you are prepared to do the odd cash in hand job and/or get a hobby that brings in something.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2014, 12:35:11 PM by TheFrugalFox »

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2014, 03:16:30 PM »
Re: OP

I'm currently swinging two part time jobs and expecting to FIRE in ten years. Three days a week at a (unionized) grocery store (mainly for the health insurance); four nights a week delivering pizza for Domino's.

These are both entry level jobs, so I read these forums and see people wondering "Help! I don't know if I can make it work?!?!?" while they're bleeding money at 120-300k/year, and just shake my head. I don't even know how to relate. I could ER after 2 years if I was making 120k. According to my accounting, I'm on track to make 38k this year (I'm journeyman wage at the grocery, so that helps a bit), and if my income stays this way, I expect we could FIRE even earlier.

Stats:
-Married, single income
-Two kids
-70k mortgage (been paying down aggressively, current balance 25k-ish)
-Overall budget (including mortgage) $1800/mo; w/o mtg, $1k/mo

All this to say that yes, I think 31k/yr is totally doable.

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2014, 10:36:53 AM »
hey man, if you can actually live on $8k a year and be happy, more power to you!  I'd never want to willingly live below the poverty line, but that's just me.

mining_melancholy

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2014, 11:47:02 AM »
hey man, if you can actually live on $8k a year and be happy, more power to you!  I'd never want to willingly live below the poverty line, but that's just me.

I completely understand your sentiment (and agree! It's nothing something I'd WANT to do if I can easily do better), but I really have to point out how funny it is that someone with a Tyler Durden avatar is talking about living above the poverty line. XD

taekvideo

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #43 on: November 04, 2014, 11:00:00 PM »
4.  You're accounting for inflation, I'm guessing, by using a 7% real rate of return on investments and thus 0% on your expenses.  Surprisingly, I think the math works out a little different (and slightly worse) using a 10% nominal rate of return on investments and 3% inflation rate on expenses.  Double check me on that, though.

I didn't read the whole thread so don't know if this has been covered but...
A 10% return and 3% inflation is equivalent to 6.7% returns with no inflation ((1 + 0.10) * (1 - 0.03) = 1.1 * .97 = 1.067 = 106.7%, or 6.7% gains).
Just subtracting them to get 7% is a very convenient approximation for napkin math, but it's definitely not exact, and in cases of high returns and/or inflation it's not even close.
So if you have spreadsheets you should probably base it on the real calculations, not the approximation.

retired?

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2014, 08:35:07 AM »
One question and one point

Q - answering the question (what is bare minimum to retire in 10 years starting from scratch) is a neat exercise.  But, given this information, how do you use it?  I think most will work the other way around, i.e. I am making X, how many years until I can retire.  I suppose it could help people deciding whether to choose work they love, but which pays less, over a job they like less but pays more.  If it let's them choose that lower paying job they love, if they truly love it, they likely won't decide to RE.  It's an interesting question, just trying to figure out the usefulness of the answer.

Point - unexpected significant costs can arise much more often than expected/planned.  As an example, bought a rental home that was 18 years old, passed an inspection with flying colors.  Within two years needed:

 - new A/C (in florida, so not optional) $3600
 - new water heater $700
 - new dish washer (can wash by hand, of course) $500
 - repair of water leak (knowledgeable person could do themselves) $400
 - work on garage door (again, knowledgeable person could do themselves) $600
 - Tree work due to damage from high winds $400
 - new kitchen faucet $150
 - one ceiling fan needs to be replaced

Another example (granted pets are unnecessary), our dog recently got into some chocolate while we were away.  Vomiting, shaking, etc. vet bill $190....just an example of the things that are not usually in the budget.

The lower the annual costs, the more risky assuming a multiple of 25 (or whatever) becomes.

The 4% guideline is based on historical data over the usual retirement length, say 25-30 years.  In a downturn, you don't have much room to lower spending when you are already at just $8k. 

Of course, go ahead and retire early knowing that you can go back to work if needed.  To me, that is the most significant factor that allows people to RE without millions in the bank.  If it doesn't work out, go back to work....at least at something.

skunkfunk

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2014, 09:18:46 AM »
I don't think owning a house is the way to go on that budget. There are too many surprise expenses that could exceed that $8k easily (roof, HVAC, taxes, insurance, etc.)

Jacob at ERE lives in an RV or something. Find one of those or a trailer home already fully depreciated, clean it up and fix it with a little elbow grease, and this is doable and even with more wiggle room. You'll be at that sub-3% withdrawal rate which would easily cover occasionally buying a new ("new to you") home-vehicle-thing if and when it gets blown away by a tornado or something.

Manatee

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2014, 09:52:40 AM »
I don't think owning a house is the way to go on that budget. There are too many surprise expenses that could exceed that $8k easily (roof, HVAC, taxes, insurance, etc.)

Jacob at ERE lives in an RV or something. Find one of those or a trailer home already fully depreciated, clean it up and fix it with a little elbow grease, and this is doable and even with more wiggle room. You'll be at that sub-3% withdrawal rate which would easily cover occasionally buying a new ("new to you") home-vehicle-thing if and when it gets blown away by a tornado or something.

Jacob bought a house.

skunkfunk

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #47 on: November 05, 2014, 10:03:00 AM »
I don't think owning a house is the way to go on that budget. There are too many surprise expenses that could exceed that $8k easily (roof, HVAC, taxes, insurance, etc.)

Jacob at ERE lives in an RV or something. Find one of those or a trailer home already fully depreciated, clean it up and fix it with a little elbow grease, and this is doable and even with more wiggle room. You'll be at that sub-3% withdrawal rate which would easily cover occasionally buying a new ("new to you") home-vehicle-thing if and when it gets blown away by a tornado or something.

Jacob bought a house.

Wait what? Still says on his about me page that he bought an RV at age 33 and moved into it. Don't see anything about a house?

Still, it was key to keeping his expenses so low.

arebelspy

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #48 on: November 05, 2014, 10:06:35 AM »
I don't think owning a house is the way to go on that budget. There are too many surprise expenses that could exceed that $8k easily (roof, HVAC, taxes, insurance, etc.)

Jacob at ERE lives in an RV or something. Find one of those or a trailer home already fully depreciated, clean it up and fix it with a little elbow grease, and this is doable and even with more wiggle room. You'll be at that sub-3% withdrawal rate which would easily cover occasionally buying a new ("new to you") home-vehicle-thing if and when it gets blown away by a tornado or something.

Jacob bought a house.

Years later after unretiring and having a WR < 1%.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

AndThen

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Re: How Well Paid (Or Not) Do You Have to Be to Retire Early?
« Reply #49 on: November 05, 2014, 11:38:36 AM »
I find it immensely interesting how having a low budget basically blows people's minds on this forum. Any talk about spending 12k or less and people jump out and tell you how terrible it is. Then Jacob's name gets thrown out along with slightly false info and more accusations occur. People think that once you FIRE then you can never do anything to receive money again. Maybe you should actually look into the philosophy behind ERE instead of just think it's "people who post about best way to optimize showering habits so they can spend $0.57/month less on the water bill." 

However, at the same time, there are a ton of threads about how soon one can FIRE. Or like the current thread of "how often you think about FIRE in a single day". How can you guys be so focused at wanting to FIRE as soon as possible yet blast people who are finding a way to do just that by happily living off less? The hypocrisy is crazy and kind of pushes me away from the MMM board at times.