Gender construction and expense reduction

[Log]

I must confess that this thread is making me self-conscious about my skincare. I wash my face when I shower (regularly but not daily), moisturize afterward + whenever my skin looks or feels dry, and wear sunscreen when I'm spending time outside.

I mean, that's really all you need. A large portion of what I'm talking about in regards to escalating skincare is just the increasing emphasis on sunscreen compared to the times of widespread tanning. Obviously one can go so much deeper than that, but it's diminishing returns.

I've only gone deeper into skincare than wash+moisturize+SPF because of acne, so I'd say you should probably just keep doing what you're doing, and don't worry about it.

[spartana]

I must confess that this thread is making me self-conscious about my skincare. I wash my face when I shower (regularly but not daily), moisturize afterward + whenever my skin looks or feels dry, and wear sunscreen when I'm spending time outside.

I mean, that's really all you need. A large portion of what I'm talking about in regards to escalating skincare is just the increasing emphasis on sunscreen compared to the times of widespread tanning. Obviously one can go so much deeper than that, but it's diminishing returns.

I've only gone deeper into skincare than wash+moisturize+SPF because of acne, so I'd say you should probably just keep doing what you're doing, and don't worry about it.

This is basicly all I do to. Wash both face and body with a cheap bar soap (Pure and Natural by Dial - 50 cents for one bar), Aveeno body lotion ($8) and Clean and Clear brand face mosturiser ($5) and a good quality sunscreen usually under $10 - $15. That's it. My skin, even as an old fart, is pretty nice and wrinkle free (knock on wood) and I'm a fair skinned/blonde and have spent lots of time outdoors. I wouldn't be opposed to a nip tuck once I get saggy though.

[Ron Scott]

I must confess that this thread is making me self-conscious about my skincare. I wash my face when I shower (regularly but not daily), moisturize afterward + whenever my skin looks or feels dry, and wear sunscreen when I'm spending time outside.

I mean, that's really all you need. A large portion of what I'm talking about in regards to escalating skincare is just the increasing emphasis on sunscreen compared to the times of widespread tanning. Obviously one can go so much deeper than that, but it's diminishing returns.

I've only gone deeper into skincare than wash+moisturize+SPF because of acne, so I'd say you should probably just keep doing what you're doing, and don't worry about it.

This is basicly all I do to. Wash both face and body with a cheap bar soap (Pure and Natural by Dial - 50 cents for one bar), Aveeno body lotion ($8) and Clean and Clear brand face mosturiser ($5) and a good quality sunscreen usually under $10 - $15. That's it. My skin, even as an old fart, is pretty nice and wrinkle free (knock on wood) and I'm a fair skinned/blonde and have spent lots of time outdoors. I wouldn't be opposed to a nip tuck once I get saggy though.

Morning Shower
Glycerin facial soap; usually Musgo Real
Good quality triple-milled body soap from Marshall’s or TJs
Liggetts bar shampoo (no liquids)

Shave
Double-edge Merkur or ‘50s Gillette razor with Persona blades
Cremo shaving cream, or Tabac soap if using a brush
Dickinson’s Witch Hazel

I’m actually grossed out by body lotions and moisturizers and commercial stuff that is supposed to be “absorbed by the skin”.  But I steal my wife’s Neutrogena Dry Touch sunscreen (or whatever)— only for prolonged exposures like biking, beach days, etc. I just make sure not to burn.

That’s it.

[Siebrie]

Some stories from my experience:

- whenever I cut my curly hair short my female friends say I look really fit. Whenever I grow it out my male friends say they are really glad I've got long hair again. I like both, so I'm okay with this. I wear it shoulder length now and cut it myself.
- the CLO I PA'd for wore a nearly new pant suit, when one day the Chinese shareholders came by unexpectedly. There was a 1-hour warning only, and she drove home to change into a dress suit.
- The CDO of the same company asked me at the coffee machine how long ago it was I had my second daughter. I enthousiastically chatted about the 8-month old and then went back to my colleagues. I told them about the chat and they immediately grasped that he meant to tell my I was still carrying baby weight and needed to 'adjust' it. I blurted out that that couldn't be it, as he had a bigger belly than I had. They had a good laugh about that.

[LD_TAndK]

...
My skin, even as an old fart, is pretty nice and wrinkle free (knock on wood)
...

Aside from limiting sun damage to avoid cancer, why care about wrinkles?? My friends in their thirties are starting to talk way too much about grey hair and wrinkles and just take it as fact that it's BAD and should be avoided. Meanwhile all my 60+ friends have gone grey, and have plenty of wrinkles, and are just fine and dandy. Who cares!

[Ron Scott]

...
My skin, even as an old fart, is pretty nice and wrinkle free (knock on wood)
...

Aside from limiting sun damage to avoid cancer, why care about wrinkles?? My friends in their thirties are starting to talk way too much about grey hair and wrinkles and just take it as fact that it's BAD and should be avoided. Meanwhile all my 60+ friends have gone grey, and have plenty of wrinkles, and are just fine and dandy. Who cares!

I think a valid response to your rhetorical question is society cares, punishes resistance, and rewards conformity. While I believe that to be true, I am sometimes discouraged that acquiescence is incorporated into identity of self such that the behaviors demanded by a society, become desirable to the individual on which the demands are placed.

This leads some men, who society expects be assertive, or even borderline aggressive, to crave dangerous sports and fast cars – – that in my original post I would classify as “unnecessary“.  And it leads some women to actually enjoy the experience of shopping for things like clothing and related accessories, to such an extent that some will make shopping an afternoon activity with friends—who may not be in need of any clothing at the time at all.

People who shape their own identities around the constructs society uses to create gender roles often miss the opportunity to learn about themselves as individuals.

So I love your attitude!

[GuitarStv]

I was an average looking kid and then ended up with some pretty horrible cystic acne all over my face through my teen and early adult years.  After about a decade of dermatologists and various treatments (including several rounds of accutane that brought about strong suicidal thoughts) the worst of the acne resolved, leaving behind only somewhat ugly scarred and pockmarked skin.

The silver lining to all this though, is that you don't really feel a strong pull to chase past lost beauty when you've never had it.  I have zero concern about wrinkles, or how my looks will change as I age because it can't be worse than having large red thumb sized puss filled welts coving my face.  Every day I wake up and see 'not a monster' it feels pretty outstanding - the desire to chase perfection isn't even on the radar.

Based on comments, this has saved me a lot of money.

[Tasse]

This leads some men, who society expects be assertive, or even borderline aggressive, to crave dangerous sports and fast cars – – that in my original post I would classify as “unnecessary“.  And it leads some women to actually enjoy the experience of shopping for things like clothing and related accessories, to such an extent that some will make shopping an afternoon activity with friends—who may not be in need of any clothing at the time at all.

It's totally possible to do the social activity of shopping without actually spending money. I love window shopping in a tourist trap, looking at all the knicknacks and going home with nothing. Even better is window shopping at an art show or gallery. The social activity has value, imo.

The silver lining to all this though, is that you don't really feel a strong pull to chase past lost beauty when you've never had it.

My version of this was, as a teenager, feeling that it was much more embarrassing to try and fail to look cute/pretty/hot than to refuse to try altogether. Now not wearing makeup (as one example) isn't really an active choice, because I literally never learned to use it.

[spartana]

...
My skin, even as an old fart, is pretty nice and wrinkle free (knock on wood)
...

Aside from limiting sun damage to avoid cancer, why care about wrinkles?? My friends in their thirties are starting to talk way too much about grey hair and wrinkles and just take it as fact that it's BAD and should be avoided. Meanwhile all my 60+ friends have gone grey, and have plenty of wrinkles, and are just fine and dandy. Who cares!

Vanity!! Nothing wrong with wrinkles and sags and bags and droops or gray or white hair  and I don't really care too much what society thinks but.... well IDK I guess it's vanity and maybe self deniel about aging and wanting to be attractive - at least to myself - etc. Yep vanity!. I like pretty clothes or other things like that on occasion for the same reason.

But my main point was that I've used simple cheap ass products on my face and it's no worse off then if I had loaded on a bunch of expense creams and lotions.

[Ron Scott]

This leads some men, who society expects be assertive, or even borderline aggressive, to crave dangerous sports and fast cars – – that in my original post I would classify as “unnecessary“.  And it leads some women to actually enjoy the experience of shopping for things like clothing and related accessories, to such an extent that some will make shopping an afternoon activity with friends—who may not be in need of any clothing at the time at all.

It's totally possible to do the social activity of shopping without actually spending money. I love window shopping in a tourist trap, looking at all the knicknacks and going home with nothing. Even better is window shopping at an art show or gallery. The social activity has value, imo.

You are absolutely right and there is nothing inherently wrong about shopping with friends as a social activity. In my experience this is something men do only very rarely. I cannot remember ever shopping with friends just to see what’s there or as a planned, enjoyable social activity. (Although, we will sit on a couch watching sports on TV and eat junk food, so…)

I think it’s interesting to consider why this specific activity—deliberately spending a significant amount of time in retail stores with friends regardless of the need for anything the stores actually sell—seems to be something people who identify as female do more often that people who identify as male.

[StarBright]

...
My skin, even as an old fart, is pretty nice and wrinkle free (knock on wood)
...

Aside from limiting sun damage to avoid cancer, why care about wrinkles?? My friends in their thirties are starting to talk way too much about grey hair and wrinkles and just take it as fact that it's BAD and should be avoided. Meanwhile all my 60+ friends have gone grey, and have plenty of wrinkles, and are just fine and dandy. Who cares!

Vanity!! Nothing wrong with wrinkles and sags and bags and droops or gray or white hair  and I don't really care too much what society thinks but.... well IDK I guess it's vanity and maybe self deniel about aging and wanting to be attractive - at least to myself - etc. Yep vanity!. I like pretty clothes or other things like that on occasion for the same reason.

But my main point was that I've used simple cheap ass products on my face and it's no worse off then if I had loaded on a bunch of expense creams and lotions.

Honestly, I think calling it vanity is doing a disservice. Youth is absolutely social currency, especially for women. There is plenty of research out there about the erasure of women as they reach middle age (ie. Invisible woman syndrome).

For a working woman there is plenty of logic to staying as naturally young looking as possible. But even for those not in the work force, most humans don't want to be invisible. Perceived youth is one way to keep ourselves being seen by others.

I say this as a 40 year old who has let her hair go gray - and I still don't like how it feels sometimes. It really sucks that our appearance affects how others treat us and I think it is okay to acknowledge that without calling it vanity.

I also suspect that until women have gender parity in the boardrooms and policy making parties in our countries that this will continue to be an issue.

Hard to change the status quo when you aren't in power.

[spartana]

...
My skin, even as an old fart, is pretty nice and wrinkle free (knock on wood)
...

Aside from limiting sun damage to avoid cancer, why care about wrinkles?? My friends in their thirties are starting to talk way too much about grey hair and wrinkles and just take it as fact that it's BAD and should be avoided. Meanwhile all my 60+ friends have gone grey, and have plenty of wrinkles, and are just fine and dandy. Who cares!

Vanity!! Nothing wrong with wrinkles and sags and bags and droops or gray or white hair  and I don't really care too much what society thinks but.... well IDK I guess it's vanity and maybe self deniel about aging and wanting to be attractive - at least to myself - etc. Yep vanity!. I like pretty clothes or other things like that on occasion for the same reason.

But my main point was that I've used simple cheap ass products on my face and it's no worse off then if I had loaded on a bunch of expense creams and lotions.

Honestly, I think calling it vanity is doing a disservice. Youth is absolutely social currency, especially for women. There is plenty of research out there about the erasure of women as they reach middle age (ie. Invisible woman syndrome).

For a working woman there is plenty of logic to staying as naturally young looking as possible. But even for those not in the work force, most humans don't want to be invisible. Perceived youth is one way to keep ourselves being seen by others.

I say this as a 40 year old who has let her hair go gray - and I still don't like how it feels sometimes. It really sucks that our appearance affects how others treat us and I think it is okay to acknowledge that without calling it vanity.

I also suspect that until women have gender parity in the boardrooms and policy making parties in our countries that this will continue to be an issue.

Hard to change the status quo when you aren't in power.

I think in my case - as a woman who never had to look good or adhere to feminine standards (just the opposite) for her job and is now FIREd - it really is just vanity. On a day to day basis I don't do anything at all vanity-wise. Get up, wash face, put hair in a pony tail, wear some workout clothes and go. Zero make up zero styling. Same as when I was working except I'd put on a uniform and coveralls instead of sweats or shorts. However if I'm going out somewhere where I can wear something nice I find it fun to put on a small.amount of make up and nice feminine clothes. Nothing expensive but just enhancing my more feminine side - something I rarely do day to day. It's pure vanity in the same way as I like to put nice curtain or a bed spread or a pillow in my house. Sure I don't have to do that and the house will be functional but having a few decorative stuff makes it feel nicer. 

As for trying to look younger (not that I actually do anything for that...yet) - well that's vanity too for me. There's no reason why I can't just continue to naturally age - and that probably what I'll do - but for vanity reasons I wouldn't be opposed to doing some simpler less expensive and less invasive  things.

[Laura33]

The pink tax is real, but let's face it: Women have way cooler clothing choices than men.

Nope.  Sorry.  Still waiting for anything that tops a properly-worn fedora.

[Laura33]

I think we can also agree: A) many behaviors we associate with gender differences are socially constructed, B) spending behaviors in particular are frequently socially constructed by gender, and C) most people are capable of personal introspection about how to at least reduce spending on items that they are socially motivated to buy.

The issue at point in this thread is pushing back on social pressure to spend more than we need to in gender-specific patterns.

So the thing I still can't get past is that we're still all Sneetches.  We are all part of a tribe.  And so we naturally all want to (a) demonstrate that we fit into that tribe, and (b) establish the highest social status we can within that tribe.  The former protects against being cast out; the latter provides the best choices of food, shelter, and mates.

In our current society, we distinguish ourselves with things like beauty products and big trucks.  In other societies, it could be tattoos or piercings or super-elongated necks or lower lips.  In Victorian times, for women, it was who had the teensiest waist/biggest bustle/palest skin.  If we were tropical birds, it might be the best possible mating dance to outshine all the other birds. 

None of those other things make a lot of sense to us, because that's not our culture, and so that's not what we value.  But we do have cultural values of our own, and whatever those are, we devote -- and will continue to devote -- what seems like illogical and unnecessary resources to those values to establish our place in the social order.  Maybe in 20 years it won't be big trucks, but the coolest electric vehicle.  If that happens, then we won't be spending so much on big trucks, because it's not about the truck.  But we will still be throwing stupid amounts of money at the coolest EV, because we'll still be Sneetching our way through life.

I think the true value of this place is that we establish our own tribe, with our own values that are different from the primary culture we live in.  It allows those of us who've never fit particularly well into that primary culture to feel like we fit somewhere, and it provides an alternative to those who aren't particularly happy within those society-set expectations.  It shows there is another way to be happy and secure and content, without having to throw around money we don't have on stuff we don't need. 

[partgypsy]

Who is doing all the judging and putting this pressure on women? My personal experience is that it is not men doing the judging. I have been in many groups in many circumstances in my five decades, and it seems easily fixable (assuming it is broken which seems safe given the responses so far) by policing yourself.

Similarly, I have heard many comments from men towards other men (including me) judging and putting pressure on vehicles and other toys. I have done my part by policing myself by both not making judgments/comments and by not paying attention to what anyone says about anything I have or wear.

Start breaking the cycle.

it's society. And yes absolutely it can be men making decisions re: this. The first job I had (early 90s) the dress code was office wear. But when the male head of the Drs office was the office the mandatory dress code for all female employees wasr dress or skirt. Which means panty hose, shaving, different shoes etc. as late as the 70s a woman couldn't appear in court sans dress or skirt. Not it's not as bad now, but take a glance at TV, instagram, magazine covers and ads, essentially any part of popular culture  and if anything the focus on youth and beauty is even more intense. (Here is example from Australia in 1983 https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theage.com.au/national/victoria/from-the-archives-1983-judge-bars-woman-lawyer-for-wearing-pants-20190516-p51o3l.html)

[Zikoris]

I opted out of the beauty industry when I was about 20 and it was one of the best decisions I ever made. I own no makeup or hair stuff. My basic personal care products are soap, shampoo, conditioner, and deodorant, all of which are shared with my boyfriend. I wear sunscreen if I'm going to be in the sun a lot, and use lotion when I (rarely) get dry skin. I have five outfits for work and wear exactly the same stuff every week (and most of the pieces are 10+ years old). I get haircuts at a barber. I don't wear uncomfortable shoes or clothes. I don't shave my legs. And I've gone out of my way to only date guys who are anti-makeup/etc, so I've never had any pressure in that regard to look different than how I do naturally.

I highly recommend just opting out of all that shit altogether and giving a middle finger to anyone who complains.

[partgypsy]

I've never worn makeup, and none of the guys I'm with complained. I  do not work a job where it's no big deal to not wear
 makeup, but there def (business, some legal, entertainment, restaurant) where it's expected. I def have some programming. To me it would feel weird, to have unshaved legs or pits, bikiniine. That's just the way I grew up, and since I've been shaving for decades it looks and feels bad to me if I dont.

[Villanelle]

The pink tax is real, but let's face it: Women have way cooler clothing choices than men.

No way, we have the wrestling singlet!

Sorry to burst your bubble, but women have that, too.

[GuitarStv]

The pink tax is real, but let's face it: Women have way cooler clothing choices than men.

No way, we have the wrestling singlet!

Sorry to burst your bubble, but women have that, too.

Pfft.  C'mon you can't look cool without earguards!